--- Log opened Thu Mar 22 00:00:02 2012 00:02 -!- any49312406 [~someone@75-120-43-13.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:05 -!- any46667927 [~someone@75-120-16-70.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:08 -!- any49312406 [~someone@75-120-43-13.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:11 -!- any46667927 is now known as katsmeow-afk 00:11 -!- katsmeow-afk [~someone@75-120-16-70.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Changing host] 00:11 -!- katsmeow-afk [~someone@unaffiliated/katsmeow] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:17 < joshcryer> I'm kind of blown away by this amazingness: http://www.soundhelix.com/audio-examples 00:19 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 00:36 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: jmil] 00:37 < sylph_mako> I'm not sure I can handle it. 00:47 < joshcryer> It would take me weeks to make one of these pieces and it wouldn't be nearly as good. (Haven't tracked in ages.) 00:48 < joshcryer> This software needs a proper frontend though. 00:49 < sylph_mako> I see that they only distribute windows binaries? So the backend's probably not very good either xB 00:50 < sylph_mako> I'm guessing it's just a command line tool? 00:51 < joshcryer> It's a jar, run on any platform with MIDI output. 00:51 < joshcryer> (Java) 00:51 < joshcryer> And yeah, it's command line, you tell it to make music with .xml files but its default mode is random. Frankly I've been listening to its random regurgitations for the past two hours, I'm just in awe. 00:52 < joshcryer> I've heard jazz, piano, trance, pop, whole nine yards. 00:56 < sylph_mako> well ima get on that bitch and start then! 01:00 < sylph_mako> C8 01:00 < joshcryer> I hate XML. :( 01:01 < sylph_mako> What would you prefer. 01:01 < joshcryer> YAML or hell... .ini. 01:01 < joshcryer> I mean, if I have to edit a file. 01:01 < joshcryer> I'd prefer a proper frontend. :) 01:02 < sylph_mako> I'm more of a protocol buffer guy myself. 01:02 < sylph_mako> xJ 01:02 < sylph_mako> I wish that were an option. 01:03 < sylph_mako> I just like the idea of eschewing text. It's a part of my transhumanism. The only reason humans can't read the stuff as well as the target program is the lack of a human aug. 01:04 < joshcryer> Ahh, yes, that would be a proper frontend. :D 01:05 < joshcryer> But I'd be OK with a nice GUI for now. One with sliders and pretty buttons. :) 01:08 < fenn> music hits a lot of brain regions already 01:08 < fenn> i'd be cautious plugging something into so many places and accepting arbitrary input 01:14 < jrayhawk> a singularity of good vibrations might occur 01:14 < jrayhawk> hard beat takeoff 01:15 < fenn> more like you'll get a pepsi ad and your heart stops because they didnt test it with all versions 01:15 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:16 < fenn> i mean look at what stupid shit people do under the influence of words 01:17 < jrayhawk> some of them buy buckets of saturated fat! 01:17 * fenn points at the bible, world wars, flag waving of all sorts 01:17 < fenn> hey fat is tasty 01:17 < fenn> nobody has to tell you to eat 01:18 < jrayhawk> http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/health/the-lipid-hypothesis-can-suck-it.jpg 01:18 < fenn> light coconut milk? 01:18 < fenn> isnt that like, coconut milk and water? 01:18 < jrayhawk> sometimes i need a refreshing drink 01:19 < jrayhawk> Yes, but it's hard to find BPA and guar-free coconut milk, so that's what I settle for 01:19 < fenn> "65% less coconut milk than regular coconut milk" 01:20 < sylph_mako> joshcryer, I keep getting the exact same piano roll coming up. ;_; 01:21 * fenn skims the wikipedia entry on BPA 01:23 < jrayhawk> BPA is a bit of an industry scapegoat; lost of components of lots of plastics have significant estrogenic activity 01:23 < jrayhawk> s/lost/lots 01:23 < jrayhawk> but hey, it's a start 01:26 < fenn> i can never figure out how to get to full text from the ncbi page 01:26 < fenn> ah it's an image in a weird place 01:27 -!- marainein [~marainein@220-253-24-173.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 01:27 < jrayhawk> http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.1003220 if you haven't already run across it 01:30 < fenn> yes plastic bottles and coated cans emit estrogen analogs, okay, but what are the actual health risks and is it greater than the cost of switching to some other can liner, i'd like to see an analysis of that 01:31 < fenn> i mean we still burn coal and it rains mercury ash into the water supply 01:31 < fenn> and people are freaking out about cans? 01:32 < fenn> lots of toxic chemicals around, just because they exist doesn't mean i'm getting high enough dosage to worry about it 01:33 < jrayhawk> mercury's not much of an issue if you have sufficient selenium intake 01:33 < fenn> fructose for example, toxic chemical present in high doses in a variety of canned goods 01:33 < jrayhawk> and the whole "we shouldn't care about x bad thing because y bad thing is twice as bad" seems a bit bizarre 01:33 < jrayhawk> i prefer to care about both! 01:33 < fenn> don't see any "fructose free" craze going on, why not? 01:34 < fenn> i'm just saying the real world has tradeoffs 01:34 < fenn> i haven't seen evidence that i should be worried about BPA from common can liners, but again i haven't really looked 01:35 < jrayhawk> and calling fructose a toxin is a little ridiculous; our bodies are designed to metabolize it very quickly without satiety and drive it straight to fat storage. 01:35 < fenn> the dose makes the poison 01:35 < jrayhawk> Which is good when an apple grove is only usable for two weeks right before winter 01:35 < lichen> i was under the impression that BPA only really leached out in noticable quantities if heat was applied 01:35 < jrayhawk> it is not good when the apple grove exists year round 01:36 < fenn> fructose is present in high enough amounts in food to cause negative health effects 01:36 < fenn> can you say the same for BPA? 01:36 < jrayhawk> Xenoestrogens do not have any apparent benefit. 01:36 < lichen> phytoestrogens can cause a lot of issues 01:37 < jrayhawk> Yes, I also don't eat soy. 01:37 < lichen> afaik phytoestrogens in women compete for estrogen receptors but dont activate them as strongly 01:37 < lichen> so they can have inverse effects for women in some ways 01:38 < lichen> unless youre menopausal to the point where that bit of activation is helpful 01:38 < jrayhawk> Uh, well, hopefully your receptors are not the chokepoint 01:40 < jrayhawk> since that would, in this specific case, be catastrophic and, in the general case, sortof defeat the point of a hormone 01:40 < lichen> yep 01:42 -!- Steel3 [43f624a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.246.36.165] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:43 < Steel3> anyone here read quantum thief? 01:43 < jrayhawk> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15975703/ "Implications for human health of the extensive bisphenol A literature showing adverse effects at low doses" 01:43 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:44 * fenn reads 01:45 < Steel3> it's supposedly pretty hard scifi transhuman/post singularity stuff (yes I know there's a differentiation) 01:46 < jrayhawk> Unfortunately as usual it's mostly animal experiments and human epidemiology... 01:48 < fenn> if lurkers would like to follow along http://fennetic.net/irc/Implications_for_human_health_of_the_extensive_bisphenol_A_literature.pdf 01:50 < jrayhawk> Maybe when the singularity comes, humans will be expendible and we can finally get some proper answers on medical questions. 01:53 < fenn> hopefully robots will be expendable by then also 02:01 < jrayhawk> huh, that paper doesn't even mention the thyroid effects 02:05 < jrayhawk> oh yeah, and insulin regulation nerds like fructose for its ability to exclusively refill liver glycogen 02:06 < jrayhawk> a use-case for which it has basically no metabolic downside 02:06 < jrayhawk> (as opposed to the liver-glycogen-is-already-full usecase, which has, as you apparently already know, potentially unfortunate tradeoffs) 02:10 < fenn> fortunately i am able to get adequate carbohydrate intake and don't have to worry about that 02:11 < fenn> so, much of the negative health effects were about fetal development 02:19 < Steel3> ughhh 02:19 < Steel3> card continues to ruin ender's game by writing more in that universe as he slowly goes crazy 02:25 < fenn> the graphs are not very convincing for BPA, only one of them even looks like a downward sloping line http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.1289%2Fehp.1103582 02:27 < fenn> no idea what the units on y axis are though 02:28 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [] 02:53 < fenn> seems like beta glucosidase would be a pretty sweet upgrade, you'd be able to digest cellulose 03:08 < Mokbortolan_> http://pastebin.com/JRLK3MLV 03:08 < Mokbortolan_> wtf? 03:09 < fenn> decompilation result 03:09 < Mokbortolan_> srsly? 03:09 < Mokbortolan_> hmm 03:10 < Mokbortolan_> darn 03:10 < Mokbortolan_> everything else came over so nicely 03:10 < Mokbortolan_> does that mean they just obfuscated that bit of code? 03:10 < fenn> you may wish to provide more context 03:10 < Mokbortolan_> it's from an APK I decompiled 03:12 < fenn> er, i don't know about .jar files but usually variable names are discarded upon compilation unless various debug flags are turned on or the functions are linked to from other binaries 03:14 < Mokbortolan_> I've got 100+ other functions that are perfectly legible 03:14 < Mokbortolan_> some with comments 03:14 < Mokbortolan_> I'll just have to play with it, I guess 03:24 < Steel3> https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/InsideSystemStorage/entry/ibm_watson_how_to_build_your_own_watson_jr_in_your_basement7?lang=en 03:31 -!- marainein [~marainein@220-253-24-173.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:36 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:45 < fenn> mmm picky eater approved, now with mannan oligosaccharides! http://www.smartpakequine.com/ultraelite-digest-2206p.aspx 03:46 < fenn> why are they feeding threonine to horses? 03:53 < rdb> does compiled Java code ever contain variable names? 04:08 -!- Steel3 [43f624a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.246.36.165] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:20 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:20 -!- thesnark [~thesnark@unaffiliated/thesnark] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:28 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:00 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:21 -!- Thorbinator_ [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:21 -!- Thorbinator_ [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:45 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:11 -!- ParahSailin__ [~parah@adsl-69-151-192-198.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:11 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:19 -!- Utopiah_ is now known as Utopiah 06:21 < audy> rdp: I believe so from reading about reverse-compiling java 06:26 -!- ParahSailin__ [~parah@adsl-69-151-192-198.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:35 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i truly doubt that "getDateRanges" is important to that particular disassembly project 06:36 -!- Utopiah [~utopiah@rps7452.ovh.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:36 -!- Utopiah [~utopiah@unaffiliated/utopiah] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:38 < kanzure> damn it i have to murder someone http://www.theverge.com/users/bcbishop 06:41 < Coornail> window 9 06:41 < strangewarp> At least your name isn't always taken by an admin 06:41 < strangewarp> I'm pretty sure it's an Internet Rule that every forum, website, and IRC network is required to have an admin named "Chris"... 06:42 < fenn> weird i was just talking about this idea earlier today http://www.theverge.com/2012/3/17/2879543/andrew-bunnie-huang-designs-open-source-geiger-counter 06:42 < kanzure> http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/03/21/billionaire-paul-g-allen-donates-300-million-in-brain-research-to-understand-what-makes-us-human/print/ 06:42 < fenn> pff a paltry 300 million 06:42 < kanzure> so, total amount invested in the allen brain institute: $500 mil 06:43 < kanzure> "Ed Boyden, an associate professor at the MIT Media Lab who is one of the 06:43 < kanzure> pioneers in the field of optogenetics, echoed that sentiment. “The Allen 06:43 < kanzure> Institute is assembling an extraordinary set of tools to tackle brain 06:43 < kanzure> circuitry in a vertically integrated way, from the parts lists to how they 06:43 < kanzure> all work together,” he wrote via Facebook chat. “It is impossible for an 06:43 < kanzure> ordinary lab group to bring all these pieces together.”" 06:43 < kanzure> lol... getting ed's opinion via facebook chat 06:44 < fenn> don't you know? email is so 1990's 06:44 < kanzure> clearly facebook chat is the optimal way to communicate with uh, optogenetics experts or something 06:46 < fenn> 417 posts, you've got some catching up to do 06:48 < fenn> looks like he just trolls press release pages and turns them into soundbites 06:48 < kanzure> "DSI is a refinement of the two-decades-old 06:48 < kanzure> diffusion tensor imaging technique, which exploits MRI's ability to detect 06:48 < kanzure> the direction in which water molecules are moving at each point in the brain. 06:48 < kanzure> Because most of those molecules move along the lengths of nerve fibres, like 06:48 < kanzure> water through a pipe, the data can be used to reconstruct each fibre's 06:49 < kanzure> location and trajectory." 06:49 < kanzure> "What DSI adds is a more sophisticated form of signal 06:49 < kanzure> analysis that allows researchers to continue tracing fibre bundles even when 06:49 < kanzure> one seems to pass behind another, a situation that posed serious problems for 06:49 < kanzure> the older technique." 06:49 < kanzure> fenn: but that's exactly what i do! 06:49 < fenn> you didn't know about diffusion imaging? 06:50 < kanzure> i knew about mri reporters 06:50 < kanzure> same thing? 06:51 < fenn> it's behind those cool images on the cover of olaf sporns' books 06:51 < kanzure> "A week after my visit to the Martinos Center, I received my DSI data. Using 06:51 < kanzure> free software from the centre, it is easy to explore the architecture of my 06:51 < kanzure> brain. I can clearly see my hippocampus, and the vast array of fibres 06:51 < kanzure> dataaaa :3 i want it 06:51 < kanzure> projecting from the midbrain sensory hubs up to my cerebral cortex. I am 06:51 < kanzure> overwhelmed by the visible detail and obvious organization." 06:53 < fenn> tractography: what is it good for? 06:54 < kanzure> well i imagine that information would be useful if you were stimulating particular regions of your brain 06:54 < fenn> so remember the "targeted" deep brain stimulation? 06:54 < fenn> they're assuming a uniform conductor, but clearly that's not anything like reality 06:55 < kanzure> that was with tdcs 06:55 < fenn> right, there's only so many words i can type 06:55 < kanzure> i am not too excited by tdcs 06:56 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 06:57 < fenn> if you had a map of the rough conductivity it might work 06:57 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:57 < kanzure> i suspect most of the high-level detail is the same between people anyway :/ 06:58 < fenn> well it's not going to be precise no matter what 07:01 < fenn> learnjs.info is neato 07:01 < fenn> i mean i like it, not that it's a graph layout algorithm :P 07:02 < kanzure> click the bottom link (python version) 07:02 < fenn> that one seemed to lock up the tab 07:02 < kanzure> the one that doesn't execute in your browser? 07:04 < fenn> it hits x.append(4) and just grinds away 07:15 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:16 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:19 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:31 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:43 < kanzure> i need.. some metal. 07:44 < kanzure> bloodrocuted http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UosmKd1krWU 07:44 < kanzure> ok close enough 07:56 < strangewarp> one second 07:58 < strangewarp> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptN7OI2TRDo - here is some superior, yet still accessible and catchy, metal 07:58 < strangewarp> flawless album imo 08:00 < strangewarp> I wish Youtube didn't muddy sound quality so much.. alas 08:00 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:06 < kanzure> strangewarp: thanks 08:07 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:10 < strangewarp> np 08:22 < kanzure> oh weird.. someone is pitching me an ipad app that goes with photoshop or an image editor 08:22 < kanzure> and the ipad app would control the layering that you are working with on your desktop 08:32 < kanzure> brlcad VMs for GSoC students https://sourceforge.net/projects/brlcad/files/BRL-CAD%20for%20Virtual%20Machines/ 08:32 < kanzure> fenn: still alive? 08:49 < AdrianG> are there gamma adjustment apps for iphone, like f.lux 08:49 < AdrianG> or redshift 09:13 -!- jmil [~jmil@2607:f470:8:3148:ccaf:6e64:8eef:e2dd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:51 < Coornail> I don't think developers have access to modify things like that 09:51 < Coornail> maybe on android 10:00 < Replop> Neurology : could the brain rewire part of itself to connect to IO implants and use them as other sensory organs ? 10:01 < ThomasEgi> why not? 10:02 < ThomasEgi> the brain is pretty generic when it comes to adapting to tasks. 10:04 < Replop> there is potential. 10:07 < kanzure> Replop: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/ 10:12 < Replop> thanks 10:15 < Mokbortolan_> Replop: it absolutely can 10:15 < Mokbortolan_> check out brainport 10:15 < Mokbortolan_> that's one 10:15 < Mokbortolan_> same researcher built another system comprised of a belt lined with pager vibrator motors 10:15 < Mokbortolan_> and a digital compass, such that the northmost motor vibrated 10:16 < Mokbortolan_> he's dead now, unfortunately 10:16 < Mokbortolan_> but his colleagues are carrying on some of the work, trying to commercialize the brainport vision system 10:17 < Replop> neat. Now, what happen when you want to upgrade the hardware : and need to change the implants ? open-brain surgery isn't nice. 10:18 < Coornail> well you only need very simple and small things in your brain 10:18 < Coornail> you could have more complicated things outside of your skull 10:18 < Coornail> of course you'll have to relearn the new hardware 10:18 < Coornail> but that's all 10:18 < lichen> all the brain needs is the inputs 10:19 < Replop> yes, 10:19 < lichen> but when you want to upgrade your ports it would be tricky again 10:19 < lichen> well, inputs and outputs rather 10:19 < Coornail> but I don't think that we should touch the brain, we could have interfaces that "talk" to your skin for example 10:20 < Coornail> like the magnetic implats, those are cool example 10:20 < Replop> but that's experimental technology. Immagine what happen with every experimental tech : eventually a more refined, mature version comes around. If there are any amelioration devised on the basic interfaces that goes in the skull..... early adopters are fucked 10:20 < Coornail> but I would really like to see infra-red 10:20 < Coornail> that's kind of different 10:20 < Coornail> eearly adopters are always fucked 10:20 < Replop> of course yes, techs that stay totally outside of the skull would be very nice 10:21 < Replop> they always are , but here , they would be fucked more than financially 10:21 < Coornail> but I think that when we are at the point where it is routine to have suergeries for these kind of things 10:21 < Coornail> I think it won't be a problem to switch a few things 10:21 < Coornail> we'll have to find a solution for a moral problem as well 10:22 < Replop> that would still be multiple neuron connections severed that would need to regrow 10:22 < Replop> which moral problem ? only the rich can affort cool new tech ? 10:22 < lichen> i want to interact with my brain directly 10:22 < Coornail> you know, doctors can't hurt 10:22 < lichen> expand consciousness directly 10:22 < Coornail> so to have a surgery to improve something, and it would risk your life 10:22 < lichen> not just have more senses but more brain faculties 10:22 < Coornail> that would be against doctors moral code 10:22 < kanzure> lichen: consciousness is insufficiently scientific for this channel 10:23 < kanzure> take your bone-headed theories elsewhere :P 10:23 < Replop> we already have that issue on cardiac transplant, isn't it ? 10:23 < Coornail> because you are esseentially fully healthy 10:23 < lichen> by consciousness i mean the internal world-model in the brain 10:23 < Replop> okay, that doesn't totally apply 10:23 < lichen> and the qualia of experience 10:23 < Coornail> well you are not healthy if you have a cardiac transplant 10:23 < kanzure> lichen: what the fuck is qualia 10:23 < kanzure> no thanks.. 10:23 < lichen> are you joking? 10:23 < kanzure> no 10:24 < lichen> its a neuroscience and philosophy term 10:24 < kanzure> i'm aware of "qualia" but really, no thanks 10:24 < kanzure> it's not really a neuroscience term 10:24 < Replop> lichen: a candidate for a billion euros fund is a total model of the human brain 10:24 < kanzure> Replop: do you mean markram's project? 10:24 < lichen> its the term for subjective mental experience 10:24 < Replop> maybe. no idea. I'm googling for the specific name 10:24 < Replop> I mean the Blue Brain project : http://bluebrain.epfl.ch/ 10:24 < kanzure> Replop: you might enjoy watching his 2005 talk.. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2874207418572601262 10:25 < kanzure> yes that is markram.. 10:25 < Replop> ^^ 10:25 < kanzure> watch the video :) skip the first 10 minutes though. 10:25 < Replop> wadsworth constant, I presume 10:25 < Replop> oh. no. 10:26 < lichen> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTWmTJALe1w 10:26 < Mariu> has anyone noticed or become aware of: Blue field entoptic phenomenon or Scheerer's phenomenon ? 10:26 < lichen> vs ramachandran on consciousness and qualia 10:26 < kanzure> lichen: not interested. at all. 10:26 < kanzure> ramachandran does some good vision research 10:27 < kanzure> consciousness is a lot like mind/body duality, "souls" and other crap like before 10:28 < kanzure> qualia too 10:28 < kanzure> all of that stuff needs to go 10:28 < lichen> consciousness isnt inherently dualism 10:28 < lichen> you can speak about consciousness in terms of physicalism 10:28 < Mokbortolan_> listen kanzure, if you're just open your your crown chakra.... 10:28 < Mokbortolan_> 'd 10:28 < lichen> which clearly 10:28 < kanzure> "Despite the difficulty in definition, many philosophers believe that there is a broadly shared underlying intuition about what consciousness is" 10:28 < lichen> you ascribe to 10:28 < kanzure> yawn.. philosophy 10:28 < Mariu> I agree with kanzure on this one 10:29 < lichen> i find philosophy highly interesting 10:29 < lichen> and i see metaphysics and science as intricately bound 10:29 < kanzure> lichen: it's interesting but wrong 10:29 < lichen> im not having this debate with you 10:29 < Mariu> lichen, then go into quantum mechanics 10:29 < lichen> ^ 10:29 < kanzure> quantum what now?? 10:29 < Replop> philosophy is sometimes usefull, but it is often used to talk about what people have no idea. 10:29 < kanzure> geeze we're ust talking about the brain 10:29 < kanzure> no reason to talk about quantum anything 10:29 < kanzure> *just 10:30 < Mariu> gotcha 10:30 < Mariu> kanzure, you know about Eliminative Materialism ? 10:30 < kanzure> lichen: "he most compelling argument for the existence of consciousness is that the vast majority of mankind have an overwhelming intuition that there truly is such a thing.[18] Skeptics argue that this intuition, in spite of its compelling quality, is false, either because the concept of consciousness is intrinsically incoherent, or because our intuitions about it are based in illusions." 10:31 < lichen> first you must define what it is you are talking about 10:31 < lichen> and when i speak of consciousness i speak of the conscious state of aware thinking 10:31 < kanzure> "Gilbert Ryle, for example, argued that traditional understanding of consciousness depends on a Cartesian dualist outlook that improperly distinguishes between mind and body, or between mind and world. He proposed that we speak not of minds, bodies, and the world, but of individuals, or persons, acting in the world. Thus, by speaking of 'consciousness' we end up misleading ourselves by thinking that there is any sort of thing as consciousness separ 10:31 < lichen> im not saying there is dualism, i am not saying there is anything beyond the physical 10:31 < Mokbortolan_> philosophy allows the most wondeful forms of bloviating, those kind that don't require evidence or any real work besides jaw motion and concatenating large words heard elsewhere 10:31 < lichen> cartesian dualism is one perspective, a rather old one 10:32 < Mokbortolan_> oh, and I can't discount the efforts of the diaphragm and the musles controlling the vocal chords, lips, and throat muscles 10:32 < lichen> you're ignoring the physicalist side completely 10:32 < Mokbortolan_> those also contribute significantly 10:32 < kanzure> lichen: ? 10:33 < lichen> i'm saying that saying consciousness does not imply dualism 10:33 < Mokbortolan_> you're just a blurry fraction of a hologram man, the gaaaawwwwd hologram 10:34 < Mariu> there's no god 10:34 < lichen> sometimes talking to science folks is just as bad as talking to religious folk 10:34 < kanzure> lichen: even if it doesn't imply dualism, i don't see where you're going with this 10:34 < kanzure> does thinking about the brain in terms of consciousness provide to you any advantages? or something 10:34 < lichen> my point is that consciousness is a subjective brain state 10:34 < Mokbortolan_> there's no god because the distinction between god and self is a product of the instantiation of you biological form, man 10:35 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: you should learn from jrayhawk how to troll better 10:35 < Mokbortolan_> :( 10:35 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: because you're *almost* there.. but not quite 10:35 * Mokbortolan_ takes more mushrooms and puts on a paisley headband. 10:35 < lichen> dismissing anything to do with consciousness might shut you off from positive leads 10:35 < kanzure> leads on what 10:36 < lichen> understanding of the brain 10:36 < Mariu> that's the wrong approach, lichen 10:36 < kanzure> by introspection? 10:36 < lichen> you can focus on the specific functions of the brain and that's fine 10:36 < lichen> i didn't say introspection, though i like to do that myself, that wasn't what i said 10:36 < kanzure> well, i was asking 10:36 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: honestly though, the study of consciousness - or what we call consciousness - can certainly help us learn more about the brain 10:37 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i have no idea what consciousness is. how the hell am i supposed to study that? 10:37 < Mokbortolan_> by defining it first 10:37 < kanzure> um 10:37 < lichen> what Mokbortolan_ said 10:37 < Mokbortolan_> and then studying, and redefining 10:37 < kanzure> if i don't know what it is how would i be able to define it 10:37 < lichen> and i was providing a defnition that does not box you into dualism 10:37 < Mokbortolan_> look at people with damaged bits of brain 10:37 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: well, we can quickly define two states, conscious, and unconscious 10:37 < Mokbortolan_> asleep or awake 10:37 < kanzure> asleep is not conscious? 10:38 < kanzure> i think conscious and consciousness are talking about two different things? 10:38 < lichen> its fuzzy 10:38 < Mokbortolan_> yes, because that's how we're defining it 10:38 < kanzure> i think people say "a sleeping person has consciousness" 10:38 < lichen> dreamless sleep is unconscious 10:38 < Mokbortolan_> words are just handy labels 10:38 < kanzure> so i think you're talking about something else Mokbortolan_ 10:38 < Coornail> ohm and what about animals? 10:38 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: this is not a handy label. i still don't know what you are takling about. 10:38 < Coornail> do they have a conciousness 10:38 < lichen> its hard to ask them 10:38 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: ok, how is a sleeping person quantitatively different than a waking person? 10:38 < Mokbortolan_> what is that difference? for the purposes of discussion, we can call that difference "consciousness" 10:39 < lichen> internal qualia 10:39 < Coornail> animals are inferior because they can't speak that they are not inferior? 10:39 < Mokbortolan_> then the question is, what is that? 10:39 < lichen> of course not Coornail, just makes it harder to study 10:39 < Mokbortolan_> so we can look at people with damaged brains who are constantly asleep 10:39 < kanzure> lichen: you can't define something by making up new words like qualia, to describe sleep 10:39 < Coornail> hehe, sorry 10:39 < lichen> i'm not making up a word 10:39 < Coornail> do we want to make it easier? =D 10:39 < lichen> qualia has a very specific meaning 10:39 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i don't think you're talking about what lichen is talking about 10:39 < Mokbortolan_> oh 10:39 < lichen> we are 10:39 < Mokbortolan_> well 10:39 < kanzure> how do you know 10:39 < lichen> are you trolling or what 10:40 < Mokbortolan_> I'm not trolling 10:40 < kanzure> no. 10:40 < Mokbortolan_> right now 10:40 < lichen> not you, kanzure 10:40 < lichen> or rather no Mokbortolan_ 10:40 < lichen> not* 10:40 < Mokbortolan_> I mean, the word "consciousness" is a label that for the purpose of discussion we are assigning to whatever it is you "have" when you're awake vs when you're asleep 10:40 < lichen> yes 10:40 < lichen> and if you want to get more specific 10:40 < Coornail> not trolling 10:40 < kanzure> ok can you be more specific than that 10:40 < Coornail> just didn't follow 10:41 < lichen> you can specify dreamless sleep 10:41 < Coornail> sorry 10:41 < kanzure> can you talk to me in terms of brains, neuroanatomy or neuroscience 10:41 < kanzure> and not psychology :| 10:41 < lichen> the state of mind lacking subjective awareness 10:41 < kanzure> "dreams" are cool and all but, to the best of my knowledge, it's like some hippocampal feedbak on the frontal cortex 10:41 < Mokbortolan_> it might be that there are several distinct states to be in besides "conscious" and "unconscious", like there are many types of quarks 10:41 < Coornail> so what if we specify consciousness as the state in which you precieve the world how most people percieve it? 10:41 < Coornail> that way we exclude dellusional people, sleeping people 10:41 < Mokbortolan_> but only a few are in wide use 10:41 < Coornail> animals, etc 10:42 < lichen> i'd argue that delusions are still conscious, but just not an accurate representation of the physical world 10:42 < lichen> the brain screwing up its model 10:42 < Mokbortolan_> misreferencing 10:42 < Coornail> can't argue with that 10:43 < Mokbortolan_> the "wife" neural pattern address being transposed with that of a hat 10:43 < Mokbortolan_> for instance 10:43 < lichen> yeah 10:43 < Mokbortolan_> I really need to read these ramachandran books I've collected 10:45 < Mokbortolan_> that bit with the "limb rejection" was just absolutely fascinating 10:45 < lichen> thats the one with the mirror yeah? 10:45 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: but I have read some articles about research into what can be termed the "seat of consciousness" 10:46 < Mokbortolan_> no, that's theone with the guy who didn't want his arm 10:46 < lichen> oh 10:46 < lichen> yeah, body dysmorphic disorder 10:46 < Mokbortolan_> and he could draw a very specific irregular pattern to describe where he wanted it to be removed 10:46 < kanzure> "Nothing worth reading has been written on it." 10:46 < lichen> interesting 10:46 < lichen> whose quote is that 10:46 < Mokbortolan_> and that ultimately corresponded to his homunculus 10:46 < lichen> and why are they qualified to say that 10:46 < kanzure> lichen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness#Is_consciousness_a_valid_concept.3F 10:47 < kanzure> above that section 10:47 < lichen> like we keep saying 10:47 < Mokbortolan_> dude 10:47 < Mokbortolan_> that was 13 years ago 10:47 < lichen> specify a definition 10:47 < lichen> and you can talk about 10:47 < lichen> and also 13 years ago 10:48 < lichen> wait no 10:48 < lichen> 23 years 10:48 < Mokbortolan_> 1989... 10:48 < Mokbortolan_> oh god, I'm old! 10:48 < kanzure> math 10:48 < lichen> haha 10:48 < Mokbortolan_> and bad at math! 10:48 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: the two worst things 10:48 < Mokbortolan_> so yeah, 23 years ago 10:48 < Mokbortolan_> almost a quarter of a century! 10:48 < Mokbortolan_> think about the computers and techniques they had back then! 10:49 < lichen> sticks and flint 10:49 < Mokbortolan_> did they even have fMRI? 10:49 < lichen> what was it like foraging for food 10:49 < Mokbortolan_> no! they didn't! 10:49 < Mokbortolan_> that only came into use in the early 1990's! 10:49 < kanzure> fmri won't help you if you can't define something 10:49 < lichen> alright i need to get going, catch you all later 10:50 < Mokbortolan_> what are you talking about 10:50 < lichen> and kanzure we keep supplying definitions 10:50 < kanzure> they are all circular 10:50 < Mokbortolan_> put a live person in an fmri, give him secobarbitol 10:50 < Mokbortolan_> bam 10:50 < kanzure> "SUBJECTIVE INTERNAL CONSCIOUSNESS" 10:51 < lichen> no, what i said was 10:51 < lichen> the subjective world-model inside the brain 10:51 < lichen> and the associated awareness 10:52 < kanzure> ok.. so a 3d scene modeled in opengl with object introspection 10:52 < kanzure> is this the same thing as the working model you'vedescribed? 10:52 < lichen> im not qualified to answer that, but that would be one interesting way of making an AI 10:52 < lichen> though you could skip the opengl 10:52 < kanzure> oh geeze so you also believei n ai 10:52 < kanzure> *believe in 10:52 < lichen> and just have object data 10:53 < lichen> "believe" in ai? 10:53 < lichen> we make this shit already 10:53 < kanzure> nobody knows what "intelligence" is 10:53 < kanzure> same problems as "consciousness" 10:54 < lichen> anyways yeah im done, later 10:54 < kanzure> seeya 10:54 < Mokbortolan_> | nobody (that I respect or know about) knows what "intelligence" is 10:54 < Mokbortolan_> ftfy 10:54 < kanzure> nope 10:54 < kanzure> nobody is able to show me a brain and point to the "intelligence" in it 10:54 < kanzure> or generated by it 10:56 < Mokbortolan_> so either you've got a flawed understanding or definition of consciousness, or you haven't read the right book yet, or you didn't believe the right answer when you read it, or your estimation of what consciousness isn't is spot on and we're just nowhere close to understanding anything yet and all research and speculation heretofore is incorrect 10:57 < Mokbortolan_> are those the boundaries? 10:57 < kanzure> another possibility is that i am not conscious and therefore unable to comprehend what the hell you're talking about 10:57 < kanzure> i think that's everything yeah. 10:58 < Mokbortolan_> sleep-typing? :p 10:59 < Mokbortolan_> I think it's likely a combination of B and C 10:59 < Mokbortolan_> but that's just my gut feelign 10:59 < Mokbortolan_> :p 11:00 < Mokbortolan_> or maybe all four 11:00 < Mokbortolan_> although the illusion of free will is an attractive one too 11:14 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:25 < Replop> kanzure: it was a very interesting talk, indeed. 11:30 < kanzure> Replop: oh you actually watched it 11:30 < kanzure> hooray 11:31 < Replop> of course, it's often a statistical model with lots of hypothesis and assumptions . but at last he's constantly comparing to reality when possible and improvments can only happen 11:32 < kanzure> they use actual neuron cultures to take the readings from in general 11:36 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:48 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:09 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:47 < ParahSailin__> is network solutions a decent registrar? am i boycotting them for any sopa/pipa reasons? 12:48 < uniqanomaly_> https://torrentfreak.com/judge-bittorrent-downloads-are-protected-anonymous-speech-120321/ nice 12:48 -!- uniqanomaly_ is now known as uniqanomaly 12:51 < kanzure> ParahSailin__: networksolutions is not decent 12:52 < kanzure> they like to take whois queries and pre-register those domains and jack up the prices 12:52 < kanzure> lots of people seem to like gandi or nameheap 12:52 < kanzure> *namecheap 12:53 < katsmeow-afk> namesecure is doing that too? 12:53 < katsmeow-afk> ~10 yrs ago someone else was 13:02 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [] 13:06 < kanzure> http://www.wimp.com/homemadevortex/ 13:07 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:07 < delinquentme> online code repos? sourceforge, bitbucket, github 13:07 < delinquentme> what else 13:08 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:08 < kanzure> delinquentme: google projects 13:08 < kanzure> google code.. or whatever it's called 13:08 < Mokbortolan_> kanzure: I see your vortex cannon, and raise you this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr72CHwpdH4 13:11 < kanzure> eh 13:11 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [] 13:11 < delinquentme> ya got it 13:13 < kanzure> http://www.scottbrown.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2012/3/senate-passes-brown-merkley-bipartisan-crowdfunding-bill 13:46 < kanzure> backyard brains' publication: 13:46 < kanzure> http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0030837 13:47 < kanzure> "The SpikerBox: A Low Cost, Open-Source BioAmplifier for Increasing Public Participation in Neuroscience Inquiry" 13:47 < kanzure> what the hell is a bioamplifier 13:47 < kanzure> don't make up new words for this :( 13:56 < ThomasEgi> appears to be just a regular analog frontend for reading biopotential.. 13:57 < ThomasEgi> damn those business administration folks with their insane desire to invent no words to impress common folks. 13:57 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: ah yeah it's not complicated at all 13:57 < kanzure> they are just trying to sell kits to schools etc. 14:35 < kanzure> fenn: openpcr uses strings like "d=1&t=40&t1=41&t2=42" to program itself from a computer 14:36 < kanzure> apparently josh/tito decided to use adobe AIR (ARGH IDJFKJSLDJAJSKLJAOJIO) 14:36 < kanzure> they use usb acting as a storage device to send commands to their arduino.. basically you write to a file with the commands (it sounds ilke a pipe but they probably messed up the implementation) 14:37 < kanzure> i am not happy with "Just make it run an HTTP server" or "make it compile/parse code" 14:37 < kanzure> what's a better way to do this? 14:39 < delinquentme> lolol 14:39 < delinquentme> AIR? 14:39 < delinquentme> they used AIR 14:39 < kanzure> yes :( 14:39 < kanzure> 1) if you use your own custom protocol, like openpcr's command string, you are limiting the possible software that it will run 14:39 < kanzure> 2) if you reprogram it every time, that's a big gaping security hole 14:39 < delinquentme> should I write him and offer some help? 14:40 < delinquentme> I've emailed him before w no response 14:40 < delinquentme> but like 14:40 < delinquentme> lol 14:40 < delinquentme> air 14:43 < kanzure> delinquentme: you used rails for lh001? 14:43 < delinquentme> ya 14:43 < delinquentme> rails packing a binary protocol 14:43 < delinquentme> well ruby 14:47 -!- nmz787 [43f2b117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.242.177.23] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:47 < kanzure> hi nmz787 14:47 < kanzure> delinquentme: so, i was just suggesting a minute ago 14:47 < nmz787> hi 14:47 < kanzure> that you should just ssh into the lab equipment 14:47 < kanzure> and drop in your new script/software 14:48 < nmz787> what equipment? 14:48 < kanzure> well anything i guess 14:48 < kanzure> so delinquentme built lh001 a liquid handling mahine 14:48 < kanzure> *machine 14:48 < kanzure> and he used rails... 14:49 < kanzure> and then these openpcr nutjobs used AIR 14:49 < nmz787> metal rails? 14:49 < kanzure> no rails the ruby project 14:50 < nmz787> so it was a web app? 14:50 < Steel2> re: webhosting/domain name registrars 14:50 < Steel2> I get all my stuff via lithium hosting 14:50 < nmz787> you access via google chrome 14:50 < nmz787> ? 14:50 < kanzure> nmz787: right 14:50 < nmz787> cool i guess 14:50 < kanzure> heh.. but i think it's not optimal 14:50 < nmz787> i hear a lot of people really like ruby 14:50 < kanzure> i mean, it's better than sending stuff down telnet i guess 14:51 < kanzure> or HYPERCOMMM 9000 or whatever the hell windows calls it.. 14:51 < nmz787> to me it seems like python is good enough for what I want to do 14:51 < nmz787> thats why that pyjamas thing kind of looks cool 14:51 < delinquentme> depends on the complexity 14:52 < nmz787> and the processor 14:52 < kanzure> nmz787: wait what are you doing? :) 14:52 < delinquentme> if you've got something that can handle the SSH 14:52 < kanzure> delinquentme: for sure.. why not run your lab equipment off of linux? 14:52 < nmz787> if raspberrypi sticks around, then we can just use a small C server for small lab use 14:52 < delinquentme> absolutely. 14:52 < kanzure> i guess openpcr's "just act as usb mass storage" is nice for compatibility 14:53 < delinquentme> raspberry pi would let you ssh in 14:53 < kanzure> nmz787: or beagleboard 14:53 < nmz787> if its something likely to be queried a lot, use different software 14:53 < delinquentme> and then that runs the machines and connects up to the server 14:53 < delinquentme> kanz what do you use for your rails auth 14:54 < kanzure> devise 14:56 < kanzure> nmz787: what are you thinking of using pyjs for? 14:57 < nmz787> openspectrometer needs a GUI 14:57 < kanzure> oh 14:57 < nmz787> there are some nice graphing javascript libraries 14:57 < kanzure> yeah.. check out three.js or raphael.js 14:57 < nmz787> so i was already thinking throwing a webkit in a python script 14:57 < nmz787> and loading the sensor data right into the webkit javascrip graph 14:58 < kanzure> note that javascript is not a good option if you have millions of data points 14:58 < kanzure> or millions of anything heh 14:58 < nmz787> it did nice shit like zooming, and landscape overview (i.e. small version of where you're zoomed into) 14:58 < nmz787> nah 14:58 < nmz787> sensor is few thousand pixels 14:59 < kanzure> three.js if you want to be fancy https://github.com/mrdoob/three.js/ 14:59 < nmz787> but the python backend will also allow processing addons to be easy to load 14:59 < kanzure> raphael.js if you are practical http://raphaeljs.com/ 14:59 < kanzure> you could also just do it straight up in python 14:59 < nmz787> i.e. some crazy math heavy data filters that some real imaging scientist might want to contribute 14:59 < kanzure> and then you can take advantage of scipy 15:00 < kanzure> actually.. scipy bindings through pyjs would be a nice thing to have in general 15:02 < nmz787> yeah that was my thought 15:02 < nmz787> scipy numpy all that shyt 15:02 < nmz787> are there octave python bindings? 15:02 < nmz787> hah 15:02 < nmz787> that might suck 15:02 < nmz787> but maybe not 15:10 -!- ParahSailin__ is now known as ParahSailin 15:10 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@adsl-69-151-192-198.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:10 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:14 < kanzure> test test 15:16 -!- ziyadh [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-chbqlusrbqcxxkcp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:19 -!- nmz787 [43f2b117@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.242.177.23] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:20 < kanzure> the internet is experiening some pretty substantial ping timeouts 15:21 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what's that dns servie map thing you one showed me? 15:22 -!- jmil [~jmil@2607:f470:8:3148:ccaf:6e64:8eef:e2dd] has quit [Quit: jmil] 15:36 < kanzure> "Mike has been located, but what happened to him will not be disclosed until his family is ready. I hope they do so soon." 15:36 < kanzure> in canada. 15:40 -!- ziyadh [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gyhsochgrpnyqiyw] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:42 -!- virnovus [~virnovus@cpe-74-77-96-63.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:43 < kanzure> hi virnovus 15:43 < virnovus> hello 15:43 < virnovus> was in reddit yesterday, and someone pointed me here 15:44 < virnovus> figured I'd keep the window open for a while and see what everyone talks about 15:51 < Mokbortolan_> we like to talk about consciousness, and how we can expand it surgically. 15:52 < Mokbortolan_> having come to a consensus on its exact location in the brain. 15:52 < Steel2> oh, you were the VR developer? 15:56 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_ is lying 15:57 < Mokbortolan_> I am :( 15:57 < Mokbortolan_> I'm a terrible liar 15:57 < Thorbinator_> besides, conciousness is probably an emergent phenomena of the entire brain 15:58 < kanzure> it's probably crap 15:58 < Mokbortolan_> I had heard of the role of the gut flora in psychology... 15:59 -!- jmil [~jmil@c-68-81-252-40.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:04 < virnovus> oh. yes, vr developer 16:05 < virnovus> was someone talking about me? 16:06 < virnovus> I'm not all that interested in cutting my brain open, at least not at this point 16:06 < virnovus> ;) 16:08 < virnovus> at least I used to be a VR developer 16:10 < kanzure> what the hell is VR 16:10 < kanzure> is it just another way of saying "we're using our GPUs" 16:11 < virnovus> they confiscated my "meth lab" and all my drug precursors, and now I can't do my job anymore, so that's about it 16:11 < virnovus> err, I used to work in a lab developing virtual reality-type simulators 16:11 < kanzure> who confiscated your shit? 16:11 < virnovus> US marshalls 16:11 < kanzure> maybe i can help you get it back 16:11 < kanzure> ok which state? 16:12 < virnovus> NY 16:12 < kanzure> are you near manhattan 16:12 < virnovus> buffalo 16:12 < kanzure> did they have a warrant? 16:13 < Mokbortolan_> virnovus: you probably had something dangerous and suspicious, ilke Acetic Acid 5% w/v 16:13 < virnovus> this was two years ago 16:13 < kanzure> virnovus: that's no excuse 16:13 < kanzure> virnovus: i don't know if it will help but we have outreach with the FBI 16:13 < Mokbortolan_> the response to meth labs is going to seriously curtail the USA's supply of chemists in the coming decades 16:14 < kanzure> in particular the FBI's weapons of mass destruction directorate 16:14 < kanzure> they are pretty friendly and helpful from time to time 16:14 < virnovus> oh I totally agree 16:14 < kanzure> virnovus: i suggest emailing agent nathan head 16:15 < kanzure> virnovus: and agent you 16:15 < virnovus> i'm pretty sure it's all been destroyed. this was two years ago 16:15 < kanzure> you should be compensated for any materials destroyed 16:15 < kanzure> what were you working on btw? 16:16 < virnovus> http://www.simulatedsurgicals.com 16:17 < kanzure> is it simulating a machine you built? 16:17 < virnovus> I was pretty stupid at the time. all my friends were Indian citizens, and I didn't have any government contacts 16:18 < kanzure> oh the machine is a simulator 16:18 < kanzure> uh 16:18 < kanzure> where did you get 3d models from? 16:19 < virnovus> I designed the initial prototype software, lately other people have been doing more of the work 16:19 < virnovus> i have some experience with video game design, pretty good with 3ds max 16:19 < kanzure> i am trying to find usable 3d models of neuroanatomical regions of the human brain 16:19 < kanzure> but unfortunately nobody has a usable brain atlas 16:19 < kanzure> just fuzzy fmri data and lots of text saying "The x bone connects to the y bone" screw that 16:20 < virnovus> oh, the models I made were mostly from urology 16:21 < virnovus> no brain data 16:21 < kanzure> bleh 16:21 < virnovus> a friend of mine has models of the major arteries in the brain, but that's more from stroke research 16:22 < kanzure> i'll take anything :P 16:23 < virnovus> i can ask him tomorrow 16:49 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-80-91.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:07 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:09 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:09 < virnovus> as far as emailing people in the FBI, I definitely don't want to get in any more trouble than I'm already in; I've already had to plead guilty to a felony 17:10 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:10 < kanzure> uh 17:10 < virnovus> not sure what I'd say. give me back my stuff? 17:11 < kanzure> yes :( 17:11 < Mokbortolan_> oh wow 17:11 < Mokbortolan_> you plead guilty to a felony 17:12 < virnovus> my lawyer kind of forced me to 17:12 < Mokbortolan_> our justice system is totaly screwed up, where you get offered "deals" for not wasting the court's time 17:12 < virnovus> yeah. any suggestions on what to do before sentencing? 17:12 < Mokbortolan_> which basically suggests that the justice meted out has more to do with whether or not you inconvenience the judge 17:13 < Mokbortolan_> naah, I would have said "get a different lawyer" if you had mentioned it before you accepted the plea deal 17:13 < virnovus> i wanted to but I was broke and my parents paid for my lawyer 17:13 < Mokbortolan_> but after this you will basically find it impossible to get a job at a large company 17:14 < virnovus> i'm aware of that. my plan is to wait it out, then move to India 17:14 < Mokbortolan_> I know a few felons trying to re-integrate into society, and they have it damn hard 17:14 < Mokbortolan_> if they'll take you 17:14 < virnovus> either that, or work for start ups 17:14 < Mokbortolan_> they might, I dunno 17:14 -!- augur [~augur@129.2.129.32] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:15 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:16 < katsmeow-afk> Associated Press 17:16 < katsmeow-afk> WASHINGTON (AP) - The U.S. intelligence community will now be able to store information about Americans with no ties to terrorism for up to five years under new Obama administration guidelines. 17:16 < virnovus> i had to plead guilty to unlawfully importing a list I controlled drug precursor :( 17:18 -!- Mokbortolan_ is now known as Mok_Away 17:18 < katsmeow-afk> point out you didn't know about that law? 17:21 < virnovus> i forgot what i said. i was stupid and said a lot of stuff, much of it true, much of it not true 17:21 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:21 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:22 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22 < Thorbinator_> this channel has all sorts of interesting characters, apparently 17:22 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:22 < Mariu> :) 18:07 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:16 -!- thesnark [~thesnark@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:22 -!- nyteryder [~nyteryder@c-24-6-237-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:49 -!- nyteryder [~nyteryder@c-24-6-237-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:50 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:53 < nathaniel> Thorbinator_ yeah that was a horribly interesting conversation 18:53 < nathaniel> thanks for highlighting me, kanzure :3 18:54 < kanzure> nathaniel: hm? 18:55 < kanzure> where? 18:55 < nathaniel> nathan head's email 18:56 < kanzure> oh. 19:09 < fenn> http seems perfectly fine for passing parameters to a lab device 19:17 < strangewarp> I used to be in a bunch of shitty channels full of angry people, and I would get pinged whenever someone raged for/against Christianity 19:17 < strangewarp> annoying++ 19:18 < fenn> maybe you should change your name 19:18 < strangewarp> No way 19:18 < strangewarp> I am named after my totally rad ancestor from the alpha session 19:18 < strangewarp> ;) 19:19 < fenn> i dont even know what that means 19:20 < strangewarp> bad webcomic reference 19:21 < fenn> virnovus: how is tensile strength and rigidity information for surgical models stored, or even acquired? 19:22 < fenn> haptic modeling of a rubber sphere is one thing, but a body? 19:23 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:29 < kanzure> hi fenn 19:30 < kanzure> i am surprised you're pro-http-server-in-lab-equipment 19:30 < kanzure> seems like a high overhead solution 19:30 < kanzure> although i'm pro-linux-in-my-equipment 19:32 < fenn> http is way less overhead than ssh 19:32 < fenn> you dont even need an OS for http 19:32 < fenn> you've heard of internet 0 right? 19:33 < kanzure> i thought so but now that i look i see it's the gershenfeld clan 19:34 < fenn> yep 19:34 < fenn> basically they wire an AVR up to ethernet 19:35 < fenn> most lab equipment doesn't need more than that 19:35 < fenn> some digital and analog i/o and do all the fancy interface stuff with your laptop or tablet or whatever 19:36 < kanzure> what's the reason to not throw in a full linux stack into your hplc? 19:36 < virnovus> oh, back now 19:36 < fenn> it's just more "stuff" 19:36 < virnovus> fenn: surgical models? we mostly just wing it 19:37 < kanzure> wtf 19:37 < virnovus> or, I do 19:37 < kanzure> virnovus: that does not sound helpful? 19:37 < fenn> i guess you're not really training on the surgery itself but rather the general use of the robot 19:37 < virnovus> they kept telling me I should use actual published data, but I'd just play around with what seemed right, or what was easy to run through the soft-body physics engine 19:38 < fenn> did you have access to the actual robot? 19:38 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure there's no published data that you can just.. use.. for that. 19:39 < virnovus> fenn: yes, I did get to use it once, for an hour or so 19:39 < kanzure> ... that's it? 19:39 < fenn> kanzure: this kind of thing is stupidly inflated expensive, and time on it is in high demand, so.. 19:39 < virnovus> right, the published data is all pretty hard to apply to our models 19:39 < kanzure> fenn: yes but .. you should be able to afford for your programmers/developers to use it 19:40 < kanzure> "Well, we built the machine, but now we need to make educational material. So obviously, we're not going to use the machine for this process." 19:40 < kanzure> fuck that 19:40 < virnovus> plus, the physics engines are all off the shelf, and soft-body physics engines that allow simulated cutting are few and far between 19:40 < virnovus> and there's no way I'd ever write one myself. WAY too much work 19:41 < virnovus> plus, at the time I was working on programming, it was part of a grant from RPCI 19:42 < virnovus> err, roswell park cancer institute 19:45 < virnovus> now, the intuitive people are developing their own simulator, so the company I was wanting to work for is looking like they might go belly-up 19:45 < fenn> kanzure: can you explain the potential benefits of having a full OS on a piece of equipment? 19:46 < virnovus> i don't suppose anyone here is rapman543? 19:47 < fenn> like the 3d printer? 19:48 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:56 < Mok_Away> http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-03-wrests-partial-memory.html 19:56 < Mok_Away> light-activated memories 19:58 < virnovus> It's interesting that there are photoreceptors in the brain 19:59 < virnovus> probably has to do with the fact that the retina is neural tissue 19:59 < kanzure> fenn: you can do all the standard software things you expect a computer to be able to do. 19:59 < kanzure> done? 19:59 < virnovus> so retinal genes get expresed elsewhere as well 19:59 < kanzure> where? 20:00 -!- virnovus is now known as vir 20:01 -!- vir is now known as virnovus 20:01 < kanzure> "Bloomfield Hills resident Mark Sims, 48, has known Treder since 2004. They attended many of the same conferences. Sims said he's been helping Treder's family in the search and doesn't know what happened to his friend." 20:01 < kanzure> isn't that the guy i stole all the nanoengineer code from 20:02 < kanzure> s/stole/got 20:02 < n_bentha> acquired* 20:02 < kanzure> ah yes the white man's word 20:07 < virnovus> anyone have anything interesting to say about racetams? 20:08 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:08 < klafka> hey 20:08 < virnovus> I ordered piracetam once, but I ran out pretty quickly and it didn't seem to do much 20:08 < virnovus> hi 20:09 < virnovus> just was curious if maybe I should give them another go 20:11 < fenn> the effects are more noticeable when combined with other things 20:11 < fenn> you have to take several grams of piracetam 20:11 < fenn> i'm not sure it makes economic sense 20:13 < virnovus> yeah, it didn't seem worth the cost at the time. even less so now 20:13 < fenn> i'm playing around with noopept 20:14 < fenn> the dosage is so low it costs practically nothing 20:15 < fenn> too many toys, too little time 20:15 < virnovus> interesting 20:15 < virnovus> my problem is, i used to have a prescription for adderall, but once I got arrested for drug charges, doctors won't write me prescriptions for it anymore 20:16 < virnovus> just assume it's drug-seeking behavior, i guess 20:16 < fenn> how do doctors even know about that? 20:17 < klafka> it got noted on his record? 20:17 < klafka> or something 20:17 < kanzure> "His Record" 20:17 < virnovus> i had one doctor write me a prescription, then got a notice a couple weeks later that i couldn't get adderall prescriptions from her anymore. no explanation 20:17 < kanzure> EMR records are usually private, except if the healthcare company has something 20:17 < virnovus> think i'm blacklisted by the DEA, but i can't prove it 20:17 < Steel2> possibly try noopept? 20:17 < n_bentha> :O 20:18 < fenn> well, noopept is nothing like adderall 20:18 < Thorbinator_> considering the charges, I wouldn't be suprised if there is a blacklist you landed on 20:18 < kanzure> fenn: i want an addressable microdroplet array :3 20:18 < n_bentha> I had a script for adderall to help me stay awake. I started selling it after starting to smoke mj to get more sleep. 20:19 < kanzure> to stay awake? docs wrote you a script just for that? 20:19 < kanzure> i went through weeks of psychological testing 20:19 < kanzure> it was like autism bootcamp 20:19 < Steel2> my buddy got it basically for having the most borderline of adhd effects 20:19 < n_bentha> Yup. Doc put down add for the diagnosis to make it kosher though. 20:19 < n_bentha> I didn't do any testing, luckily. 20:20 < virnovus> i have genuine ADD effects. my grandma was killed crossing the street because she wasn't paying attention to traffic. no lie 20:20 < strangewarp> Nootropics cured my clinical depression and part of my laziness. Woop woop 20:21 < fenn> i wish these diybio kids would hurry up and put together some metabolic pathways 20:21 < fenn> strangewarp: care to elaborate? 20:21 < Steel2> my mom thinks the choline is what helped her 20:22 * n_bentha wants some modafinil 20:22 < fenn> choline certainly won't hurt 20:22 < strangewarp> fenn: I feel like a productive adult who doesn't hate himself for the first time ever, basically 20:22 < n_bentha> fenn: what kinda pathways? 20:22 < fenn> i think alzheimer's is related to choline deficiency 20:22 < virnovus> i used to have modafinil. fucking US marshalls confiscated that too 20:22 < n_bentha> no wai! 20:22 < katsmeow-afk> i can't do $80/month for monafinal, the adrafinal was doing well 20:22 < n_bentha> virnovus: why they do that? 20:22 < Mok_Away> adderall is sure handy for focusing 20:22 < Mok_Away> boy howdy 20:22 < virnovus> they confiscated anything that looked like it even might be illegal 20:22 < fenn> n_bentha: drug production, to make it impossible to regulate, end the war on drugs with improved technology 20:23 < n_bentha> oh that's cool. when they transform the genes for the thc pathway into things, i'll be one happy camper 20:24 < fenn> yes, ideally herbicide resistant invasive weeds 20:24 < virnovus> i've always been interested in trans-4-methylaminorex. never was able to synthesize it though. and all the precursors are too similar to meth 20:25 < virnovus> ooh, yes. dandelions with superdominant THC genes. can't wait! 20:25 < Mok_Away> Just say NO to GMO! 20:25 < Mok_Away> :p 20:26 < n_bentha> haha dandelion salads! 20:26 < n_bentha> wooo 20:27 < n_bentha> Speaking of drugs... 20:27 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:27 < n_bentha> What kind of drugs do astronauts get? I hear a rumor that they get good stuff to help w/ the long flights and stuff. 20:28 < strangewarp> maybe this is the great filter 20:28 < virnovus> recently I did get some ethylphenidate, although i'm a little disappointed in it. i was hoping it'd be more like adderall 20:28 < strangewarp> >_> 20:28 < virnovus> n_bentha: i think it's modafinil. could be wrong 20:29 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 < virnovus> i know air force pilots get modafinil 20:31 < n_bentha> my insurance does 90day perscriptions @ a 20dollar co-pay 20:31 < n_bentha> i need to start the drug-seeking behavior 20:32 < virnovus> there was a law and order svu episode on where a girl acts like she went psycho from staying up too long using provigil (modafinil). I was watching it with my grandparents and I wanted to scream no, provigil WON'T DO THAT!!! but it was my grandparents so i kept my mouth shut 20:32 < n_bentha> Wow, that sounds bad, but I hope you guys know what I mean. 20:33 < virnovus> n_bentha: can always make your own drugs. but i wouldn't recommend that. you could wind up a convicted felon for life 20:33 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:35 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:35 < n_bentha> I only worry about the production of other hormones being affected by provigil--like how thyroid hormones, cortisol, etc are needed in the circadian rhythm. Would provigil cause adrenal burn-out like adderall is known too? 20:35 < n_bentha> to* 20:35 < n_bentha> d3nd3! I missed you, buddy. Did you sprout your wings and learn to fly yet? 20:36 < virnovus> n_bentha: i don't think so. provigil is much more subtle than adderall 20:36 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-81-88.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:36 -!- d3nd31 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:38 < n_bentha> Well if it keeps you awake while allowing your cortisol to drop so your other hormones (thyroid, growth hormone, etc) can be secreted, then I'm all for it. 20:39 -!- d3nd31 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39 < virnovus> no clue there. i just know it was a mild, benevolent stimulant 20:40 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:40 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:40 < n_bentha> How would you compare it to caffeine? 20:41 < virnovus> less... dirty? I don't know. I guess I would say it's like a nicer version of caffeine? 20:43 < virnovus> i guess i'd say it's somewhere between adderall and caffeine, but lasts longer 20:43 < n_bentha> And the diuretic effects? 20:44 < n_bentha> (sorry for so many questions--that's the last one) 20:45 < virnovus> i don't remember any, but then, it was 2 years ago that they took all of mine. it was definitely more subtle than amphetamines though 20:45 < virnovus> which could be a good thing if you don't like amphetamines 20:46 < virnovus> the thing is, i have issues with depression too, and modafinil didn't touch that, which is why i wasn't that thrilled with it 20:46 < n_bentha> Oh, I loathe amphetamines. They make me have the runs, dehydrate, and want to throw-up. 20:46 < kanzure> fenn: BASED ON MY CALCULATIONS, storing 50,000 droplets should take 4 cm^2? if you assume 10 micron walls and 5 micron diameter drops? 20:47 < n_bentha> That's a bummer. No drug ever cured my depression :( 20:47 < kanzure> so storing 50,000 5 micron droplets should take at least 25 centimeters 20:47 < n_bentha> But I'm not depressed anymore! 20:48 < kanzure> if it was a single capillary storage geometry thing 20:48 < Steel2> why are you storing drops? 20:48 < kanzure> Steel2: chemicals, dna, cells 20:48 < Mok_Away> n_bentha: it makes your pee smell awful 20:48 < Steel2> hmm 20:48 < Mok_Away> there's that "thio" in there 20:48 < kanzure> Steel2: first, with 4096 drops you can store all possible sequences of DNA up to 6 letters in length 20:49 < Steel2> like in an array? 20:49 < kanzure> and then you can combine these 6mers to make whatever you are sequencing 20:49 < kanzure> no 20:49 < kanzure> an array needs more surface area 20:49 < Steel2> cube? 20:49 < kanzure> no 20:49 < kanzure> i said capillary :( 20:49 < Steel2> oh 20:49 < Steel2> hm 20:50 < Steel2> I can think of ways to make solid capillaries with those sizes but not permeable ones 20:50 < kanzure> so with 50000 drops you can store maybe 50000 different versions of cells or something 20:50 < kanzure> i mean a pdms capillary 20:50 < virnovus> n_bentha: i've tried methoxetamine, that took care of it for like 10 days 20:50 < kanzure> one long-ass channel 20:50 < virnovus> and yeah, it makes your pee smell pretty bad 20:50 < kanzure> virnovus: i will buy whatever i can to make my pee smell like t-rex pee 20:50 < virnovus> the *afinil drugs 20:50 < Steel2> yeah, no idea. 20:51 < n_bentha> oh this is what you were talking about last time, kanzure! Sweet :) 20:51 < kanzure> t-rex urine? 20:51 < virnovus> pretty sure they didn't pee. they excreted there ammonia in uric acid, like birds :) 20:51 < Steel2> hmm 20:52 < kanzure> virnovus: we can fix that 20:52 < Steel2> electroluminescent dye 20:52 < n_bentha> lol. i've been pretty happy w/ taking L-theanine and eleuthero, virnovus 20:52 < kanzure> Steel2: this system is a bit more complex than what i have in mind 20:52 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Simple,%20robust%20storage%20of%20drops%20and%20fluids%20in%20a%20microfluidic%20device.pdf 20:52 < kanzure> they also show it in an array.. again, not what i was aiming for 20:52 < n_bentha> i want one of those new vibrating tatoos, but i want to to light up when it does. 20:53 < kanzure> i just want a microfluidic storage system that looks like this: .......... 20:53 < kanzure> that's all i'm asking for :p 20:54 -!- nyteryder [~nyteryder@c-24-6-237-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:54 < Steel2> how would it dispense 20:54 < Steel2> out one end? 20:54 < katsmeow-afk> i keep thinking of the mcp found in some oscopes, but i dunno how you'd put the liquid in/out , or even index the channels 20:54 < kanzure> yes 20:54 < kanzure> first in first out 20:54 < Steel2> vov 20:55 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:55 < Steel2> I need to find someone good with repraps in dc 20:55 < Steel2> (easy) 20:55 < kanzure> oh this looks handy "Design of pressure-driven microfluidic networks using electric circuit analogy" http://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2012/LC/c2lc20799k 20:56 < kanzure> yeh same thing as bondgraphs.. no surprise 20:56 < n_bentha> you'll need to keep it all cold, right? 20:56 < kanzure> no? 20:56 < n_bentha> at least the stocks? 20:57 < kanzure> dna is ok at room temp 20:57 < n_bentha> Ya I guess... 20:59 < yashgaroth> if you keep it sterile 21:00 < kanzure> "A drop treadmill holds up to three droplets and can function as a first-in-first-out buffer memory." only three? 21:00 < kanzure> pg 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Thermocapillary%20manipulation%20of%20droplets%20using%20holographic%20beam%20shaping:%20Microfluidic%20pin%20ball.pdf 21:00 < kanzure> (though this is a different/unusual actuation technique) 21:01 < kanzure> well... here's someone is doing fraction emulsions into single-file channels, but it looks random 21:01 < kanzure> http://weitzlab.seas.harvard.edu/publications/mary-2011-biomicrofluid.pdf 21:02 < virnovus> i realize i'm kind of jumping in in the middle, but I've seen some work done with piezo pumps that looked promising 21:03 < kanzure> yeh? 21:03 < virnovus> it was a presentation a few years ago at a conference. forgot who did it 21:03 < kanzure> pg2 looks like a buffer of drops to me.. http://www.rsc.org/binaries/LOC/2008/PDFs/Papers/611_0518.pdf 21:05 < n_bentha> If it helps, there are some robots for injecting xenopus oocytes with very small ammounts of rna. I imagine you could adapt the design to work in a similar fashion? 21:05 < kanzure> i am trying to convince fenn to be intrigued by this 21:06 < virnovus> what would it be used for? 21:06 < n_bentha> However, they did use a needle filled w/ oil that sucked up the rna from a 1.5ml centri tube. Then had a wash and a waste tube as well. 21:07 < n_bentha> Well you could use it to suck up DNA from the tubes, and add very small ammounts to the droplets. 21:07 < kanzure> virnovus: mirofluidic dna synthesizer 21:07 < kanzure> *micro 21:08 < yashgaroth> xenopus oocytes are huge though 21:08 < n_bentha> Yeah, but it was like less than 1ug that we injected each one w/ 21:10 < kanzure> pfft manual syringe method to create microdroplet emulsions http://weitzlab.seas.harvard.edu/publications/Bio_Abate_2011.pdf 21:11 < virnovus> ooh, yeah, i was thinking something like drug injection 21:11 < virnovus> dunno why 21:12 < n_bentha> "droplet size measures approximately 60 µm in diameter " 21:12 < virnovus> heh 21:13 < n_bentha> http://www.biocompare.com/Articles/ApplicationNote/1651/Microinjection-Of-RNA-Into-Xenopus-Oocytes.html 21:16 < yashgaroth> I feel like this needs lasers somehow 21:16 < n_bentha> W/ the robot for it, you have to do the calibration that I mentioned last ngiht. 21:17 < n_bentha> But then you can let it run until you need to change out samples. 21:18 < n_bentha> It's just hard to be accurate to the micro-meter from the get-go. 21:19 < n_bentha> If you had the samples of the 4096 dna 6-mers on a rotating device, you could keep the injector stationary. 21:20 < kanzure> n_bentha: the 4096 droplets would be in the system already 21:20 < n_bentha> :O 21:20 < n_bentha> What if you need to use one of the 6-mers more than 1x? 21:21 < kanzure> n_bentha: you will use a drop, and then put it back in the library 21:21 < kanzure> contamination is an interesting question, but i think i have a way to work around that 21:21 < kanzure> yashgaroth was also kind enough to make up a cool technique to avoid depleting your library 21:21 < n_bentha> Ok. The contamination thing is what I was not able to deal w/. 21:22 < yashgaroth> that method needs time to replenish, so hopefully you'd only be taking ~10% at a time 21:22 < kanzure> n_bentha: this is what yashgaroth drew up http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/nicking-library-method.jpg 21:22 < yashgaroth> but yeah what about contamination, micron-sized needles ain't cheap 21:23 < Steel2> Hmm 21:23 < Steel2> interior diameter of what needed 21:23 < Steel2> our ~5um interior diameter needles are... 21:23 < Steel2> god, I don't actually know 21:23 < Steel2> I think they're pretty cheap actually 21:23 < yashgaroth> interior doesn't matter, long as exterior is <5um 21:24 < Steel2> oh, exterior 21:24 < Steel2> >_> 21:24 < yashgaroth> or whatever the drop dimensions are 21:24 < Steel2> our interior is 5um 21:24 < Steel2> exterior is prob significantly wider at the widest point 21:24 < kanzure> yashgaroth: the droplets can be created later 21:24 < kanzure> dump shit into the channel -> form a drop -> everything else goes to waste 21:24 < nyteryder> (no idea what you guys are really talking about but this all sounds really cool) 21:25 < kanzure> nyteryder: http://labs.pharmacology.ucla.edu/tsenglab/image/labtour/ResearchImage/Microfluidics/HsianRongTsengLab_microfluidic01_Dec28_04.jpg 21:25 < n_bentha> When you pull needles for use in microinjectors, there are multiple techniques to making them sharp and pointy 21:25 < n_bentha> You can break them, or you can do some polishing 21:25 < n_bentha> Should work out alright. 21:26 < yashgaroth> we need blunt ends 21:26 < yashgaroth> don't want to stab a hole in your substrate 21:26 * n_bentha needs a blunt and to let the grown-ups do the talking. 21:26 < n_bentha> btw, I like the bead-idea for the six-mer generation 21:27 < yashgaroth> sadly it may need to be 8mers, but the principle still applies 21:28 < n_bentha> would you then need 65 536 8-mers? 21:28 < yashgaroth> yes, minus the palindromic ones, or the few recognized by the nicking enzyme 21:29 < nyteryder> Thanks kanzure 21:29 < yashgaroth> that's the microfluidics department though, not my problem :V 21:35 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-171-66-113.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:35 -!- Guest81313 is now known as poptire 21:36 < virnovus> would anyone here be interested in seeing video of a laproscopic bladder/prostate surgery? 21:37 < yashgaroth> is it in HD 21:37 < virnovus> s-video 21:37 < yashgaroth> I prefer my bladders hi-def, but okay 21:37 < virnovus> it was too hard to record the HD signals 21:37 < virnovus> heh 21:38 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:38 < virnovus> well, i just wondered because I found the files on my hard drive, but they're all in MPG format so they're huge 21:38 < virnovus> would have to re-encode them i think 21:38 < virnovus> see if i have the avi 21:45 < n_bentha> oh i did a gall bladder removal last year (laproscopic) 21:45 < n_bentha> where's the video? 21:45 < kanzure> nyteryder: sure no problem? 21:51 -!- jenzebubble [~jen@173-19-241-225.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:54 -!- jennicide [jen@173-19-241-225.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:40 < kanzure> http://w3fools.com/ 23:07 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:33 -!- nyteryder [~nyteryder@c-24-6-237-38.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- The alternative IRC client] 23:35 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] --- Log closed Fri Mar 23 00:00:03 2012