--- Log opened Mon Apr 02 00:00:17 2012
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01:43 < jrayhawk> "there was no tech to see if a tire store was open at nearby exits" cellular internet access and voice directory assistance are things what exist
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01:46 < jrayhawk> re: singularity by 2040-2060: http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/reports/2008-3.pdf
01:47 < jrayhawk> If transhumanism doesn't produce significant advances, a worst case projection sees humans being obsolete by 2070.
01:49 < skorket> jrayhawk, point being that it's probably going to be within our lifetime
01:52 < jrayhawk> Yeah. That's just a somewhat more reputable and in-depth reference than Kurzweil.
01:55 < skorket> pretty amazing
02:06 < strangewarp> I remember completely losing faith in regular people on the day that I saw a TIME poll where they asked their readers to predict the dates that a set of technologies were developed.
02:06 < strangewarp> Human-level artificial intelligence, post-scarce resources, and immortality were all pushed back to the year 9999, which was the maximum value for the poll.
02:06 < jrayhawk> bahaha
02:09 < jrayhawk> "The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." -- Albert Bartlett
02:10 < skorket> bingo
02:10 < skorket> I'm guilty of this as well
02:10 < skorket> but I'm coming around
02:10 < jrayhawk> (though, ironically, Bartlett is more obsessed with Malthusianism than singulitarianism
02:10 < jrayhawk> +)
02:11 < delinquentme> kanzure,
02:12 < delinquentme> have you any stashes on graphene and creating 1 atom thick surfaces using just scotch tape?
02:14 < delinquentme> hulu has AWESOME NOVA specials
02:24 < katsmeow-afk> i have no cell internet because of cost, and voice directory assistance will not tell you what businesses are in a location
02:25 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, you know google will search via text message right?
02:25 < delinquentme> you can text it to google   ( in keypad numbers )
02:25 < katsmeow-afk> text msg is a data plan, i have no data plan
02:25 < delinquentme> with mcdonalds 15213
02:25 < delinquentme> ohhhh
02:26 < delinquentme> =[
02:26 < katsmeow-afk> the phone books at one exit did not cover the adjacent exits
02:26 < jrayhawk> katsmeow-afk: What's your carrier?
02:26 < katsmeow-afk> at&t
02:29 < jrayhawk> http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/disability-resources/411-assistance.jsp
02:29 < jrayhawk> "4-1-1 Info can utilize your location to find a business near you. It also offers movie showtimes, turn-by-turn driving directions, reverse lookup, and business category search - all with access to live operators 24/7."
02:29 < jrayhawk> Essentially "Use our minimum wage call center workers to look shit up on the internet for you"
02:31 < katsmeow-afk> i had not considered pleading disability
02:32 < jrayhawk> Uh, yeah, sorry, that's the first good description of the service I came across; the "exemption" part of that page was not something I intended to point out.
02:33 < katsmeow-afk> ok, previously, when i asked for a phone number to a type of business, they said they did not have a way to look up that info
02:33 < katsmeow-afk> they also said they could not recommend a business
02:34 < katsmeow-afk> ergo, i got nothing
02:34 < katsmeow-afk> so i never asked again
02:34 < katsmeow-afk> even weeks ago, they could not tell me if something was close
02:35 < katsmeow-afk> "i need the number for So&So", i have that in town1 and town2"  "which is closer to me?" "i have no way to know that "
02:35 < jrayhawk> Did... did you tell them where you were?
02:36 < katsmeow-afk> no, and they didn't ask
02:36 < katsmeow-afk> and my phone is old with no built-in gps
02:37 < jrayhawk> Well, as near as I can tell, call-center employees aren't allowed to look up tower or GPS info, presumably for privacy protection.
02:37 < katsmeow-afk> well, they also didn't know where the towns where
02:37 < katsmeow-afk> neither did i
02:37 < katsmeow-afk> i think the result is one must ask for each number separately at $1.99 each, and call them both
02:38 < katsmeow-afk> stuff never works right here, it's because of humans
02:39 < jrayhawk> Huh. Well, in theory there are third party directory assistance services that might presumably be less terrible, but I haven't actually tried any.
02:40 < katsmeow-afk> it's unlikely 2070 is within my lifetime
02:43 < jrayhawk> That might be for the best. I don't expect the singularity to be a particularly pleasant time to be human.
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04:28 < fenn> i like the tupperware/pelican case construction method used for the air quality egg
04:33 < Vicarious> 'morning
04:41 < fenn> gosh, testosterone has such an undeserved bad reputation
04:41 < fenn> "men are idiots, therefore we should ban testosterone!!!"
04:41 < fenn> :(
04:42 < bkero> women have testosterone too
04:44 < ThomasEgi> we are better off banning idiots
04:44 < ThomasEgi> put them all on a small island somewhere in the ocean..
04:45 < ThomasEgi> i'd suggest bouvet island
04:46 < ThomasEgi> would make the world's highest population density of about 163 idiots per km²
04:46 < ThomasEgi> 163 millions. sry
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06:50 < kanzure> delinquentme: yep.. i do have stuff on graphene. http://heybryan.org/graphene.html
06:50 < kanzure> nmz787: kurzweil is popular but not an ideal source to learn about technological singularities. for a partial refutation see http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
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06:52 < kanzure> that's a refutation of kurzweil.. not a singularity
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07:27 < diginet> hallo
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07:34 < diginet> so, I'm working on a project which involves the insert of an approximately 320 kDa protein.  According to the literature, E. Coli, or even yeast isn't really suited to this, and the protein ends up being truncated, which severely inhibits the beneficial properties. Are there any favoured moder organisms/cell lines which would be suited to this that are also easy targets for transfection?  I considered try algae, but thought
07:34 < diginet>  I would see if anyone more experienced had any other ideas
07:41 < kanzure> do you mean the protein ends up truncated because ecoli doesn't usually make such large proteins, or because your plasmid and/or genomic modifications suck?
07:45 < katsmeow-afk> fenn, i was absolutely not for banning testosterone, i didn't mean to imply that
07:48 < diginet> kanzure, the latter
07:48 < diginet> errr, former sorry
07:50 < kanzure> i don't have any usual go-tos for large-protein-expression but yashgaroth and n_bentha might
07:51 < diginet> algae seems like it would work well, but I don't know if things like BHK might be better suited.  I'm playing with trying to synthesize spider silk proteins.  AFAIK, the process for spinning them is fairly well understood, that is scientists can dissolve and reconstitute naturally produced silk and get it to have roughly the same propeties.  Howoever, to date, I don't think anyone has gotten the proteins that make up the fi
07:51 < diginet> bers to match the natural ones in quality
07:52 < kanzure> diginet: if you idle in here for a while you will get some better answers
07:52 < kanzure> also. is this a diy project?
07:52 < diginet> yes
07:52 < diginet> thanks for the suggestion, I'll stick around
07:53 < diginet> on the subject of your asking if its DIY, do you know others attempting something similar?
07:53 < diginet> (i.e is that why you asked, or were you just curious)
07:54 < kanzure> sorta kinda. ParahSailin mentioned a spider silk project the other day?
07:54 < kanzure> ParahSailin: ping
07:54 < diginet> haha, great nick
07:54 < diginet> spider silk is fascinating stuff
07:54 < katsmeow-afk> i recall many times in the last 30 years people were working on this or that regarding silk
07:55 < diginet> yeah, it's definitely been done, it just isn't as good as the real thing
07:55 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: most people have been doing the work in academic/institutional settings
07:55  * katsmeow-afk nods
07:55 < kanzure> it's about 100x better doing it on your own so you can do with the results as you please
07:55 < katsmeow-afk> and change directions without permission
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07:57 < diginet> I think the record for synthetic spider silk is 600 MPa or so, in breaking strength, which is 400 less than the average of 1000 for natural
07:57 < diginet> well, for N Clavipes
07:57 < katsmeow-afk> there's the guy who will know
07:57 < diginet> have you guys heard of Darwin's Bark Spider?
07:57 < kanzure> nope... tell it like a story?
07:58 < diginet> haha, sure
07:58 < n_bentha> isn't most of synthetic spider silk made using the genes of one of the weaker silks?
07:58 < n_bentha> (darwin's is the strongest)
07:58 < katsmeow-afk> diginet, yeas, i recall people trying to make a synthetic silk to put up against kevlar in everything from vests to space elevator
07:58 < diginet> n_bentha, IIRC, most use N Clavipes, which is otherwise the best apart from Darwin's
07:59 < diginet> it's a new species of spider that was discovered last year in the amazon river basin, it's dragline silk is like 3 times stronger than the best of any other known spider, and 10 times stronger than kevlar
07:59 < diginet> too bad there's now way to get a specimen :(
07:59 < diginet> *no
07:59 < diginet> *its
08:00 < n_bentha> WHY?!?!
08:00 < diginet> sorry for my horrible typing
08:00 < kanzure> diginet: why not just.. go there and get one?
08:00 < diginet> why? well, save for travelling to the Amazon, how would I get on?
08:00 < diginet> I live in Texas
08:00 < kanzure> yes, that sounds like a plan to me
08:00 < kanzure> i also live in texas
08:00 < diginet> hahaha
08:00 < kanzure> i'm in austin
08:00 < diginet> cool, I'm in Houston
08:00 < kanzure> ah have you met jacob or forrest yet?
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08:01 < kanzure> they run the local diybio lab
08:01 < diginet> no? but I'd like to! haha, just getting started with this thing
08:01 < diginet> oh really?
08:01 < diginet> sweet
08:01 < Mariu> hey guys
08:01 < kanzure> yeah man.. go find jacob shiach
08:01 < n_bentha> diy lab in houston?
08:01 < kanzure> i think they renamed to arclab or something
08:01 < diginet> I'm actually a physicist by trade (well, I say "by trade" studying to be one in Uni) but Bio is a hobby of mine that I'd love to learn more about
08:01  * diginet looks it up
08:02 < n_bentha> http://www.txrxlabs.org/
08:02 < kanzure> i thought they moved out of txrx?
08:03 < diginet> anyhow, I had this idea, I was toying around with tyrian purple (or rather, 6;6'-dibromoindigo) and was thinking, how badass would tyrian purple dyed spider silk be? lol
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08:04 < diginet> obviously not practical, but hella cool, and the most absurdly expensive textile ever
08:04 < kanzure> i haven't read much on spider silk production
08:04 < kanzure> i know there's some protein but how do the silk sacs work?
08:04 < diginet> (provided no way of manufacturing either is discovered)
08:04 < diginet> well, it's actually quite simple
08:05 < diginet> it basically works the same way synthetic fibers like nylon as spun
08:05 < diginet> well, I say that, it's a little more complicated, but anyhow
08:06 < katsmeow-afk> iirc, the silk problem is molecule alignment, which isn't an issue with nylon
08:06 < diginet> basically, you take the proteins, there's two of them, and put them in a solvent.  Then you extrude it out such that a strand is formed
08:06 < kanzure> diginet: my only silk-relatd paper is this:
08:06 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Designing%20Spider%20Silk%20Genes%20for%20Materials%20Applications.pdf
08:06 < kanzure> if you have a .tar.gz you could contribute to my collection.. that would be hot :)
08:06 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/
08:06 < diginet> katsmeow-afk, yeah, that's true, I'm just saying they both are conceptually the same
08:06 < n_bentha> the problem is the microfluidics
08:06  * katsmeow-afk nods
08:06 < diginet> kanzure, I have a TON of papers
08:06 < diginet> well, they're not mine
08:06 < kanzure> diginet: i'd like to have all of them
08:07 < diginet> do you mean my collection, or stuff I've authored?
08:07 < kanzure> collection
08:07 < diginet> I have probably 200 GiBs of papers
08:07 < n_bentha> and how there's a change in pH and hydration of the proteins as the silk is spun that confers the conformations of the proteins.
08:07 < diginet> most aren't bio related
08:07 < diginet> however
08:07 < kanzure> that's fine
08:07 < n_bentha> and it's affected by how fast the spider pulls out the fibers
08:07 < diginet> I was also working of DIY diamond production
08:07 < kanzure> diginet: you might enjoy these sections:
08:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/
08:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech
08:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/stem-cells/
08:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/
08:07 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/
08:07 < diginet> I could do it for sure, provided I had the money
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08:08 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/
08:08 < diginet> the problem is, it needs a seed crystal, heteroepitaxy of of single crystalline diamond is only possible on plationoid metals, which obviate any benefit of not requiring diamond due to cost
08:09 < diginet> *platinoid
08:09 < katsmeow-afk> n_bentha, not that i have a clue, just a glancing familiarity with the issue, what about lining microtubes with a layer of bacteria, such that the proteins extruded within the tube cannot be turned wrong, and exit the tube the same way they exit the spider?
08:09 < _Sketch_> This may be silly. I'm looking for small cameras (< 1in), low-resolution, to mount to my sunglasses to make a thermal imaging system. Feasible?
08:10 < kanzure> can't you just centrifuge the silk out?
08:10 < diginet> I think the best method of forming the fiber would be electrospinning, it's cheap, simple, and reasonably accurate
08:10 < diginet> purifying the protein is the easy part
08:10 < diginet> the hard part is forming the fiber in a reliable way
08:10 < kanzure> _Sketch_: yep sounds feasible to me.. fenn might know a specific camera to recommend
08:11 < katsmeow-afk> sketch, try any lens-less "spycam" and an IR filter
08:11 < n_bentha> katsmeow: i don't think that would work...it's more trouble changing the microenvironment of the silk-dope as it is spun
08:11 < diginet> it's not like nylon, or what have you, it's a composite of two different proteins with a fairly complex structure.  Luckily, if you coax them to behave in just the right way, they can sort of self-align
08:12 < _Sketch_> On that same note, are there any backless OLED devices I could apply to the lens of a sunglass?
08:12 < diginet> not that I know of
08:12 < katsmeow-afk> backless,, you doing overlays?
08:12 < kanzure> _Sketch_: how about using a projector in the glasses?
08:12 < _Sketch_> yeah, I was going for overlay.
08:13 < diginet> yeah, what kanzure said, I've looked at stuff like that, and the best solution I came up with was a tiny projector with half-silvered lenses
08:13 < _Sketch_> Woah, heh.
08:13 < katsmeow-afk> grab a old 1/2 inch display from camcorder and use it as a projector onto the people side of your glasses
08:13 < n_bentha> i made a presentation about it, hold on.
08:13 < diginet> if you look around, there are some fairly reasonable tiny-ish LCDs or FLCDs which might work, just put an LED behind them
08:14 < diginet> anyhow, spider silk is an awesome material, the only things cooler are CNTs, but spider silk has the advantage of not being potentially carcinogenic
08:15 < katsmeow-afk> didn't some site last month have an article on diy overlays using a online service, cellphone, and a baseball cap?
08:15 < diginet> plus, it doesn't require an expensive CVD reactor (although I have been working on a DIY one)
08:15 < kanzure> most of the diamond synthesis methods i recall used a CVD
08:15 < kanzure> or some sort of heat-intense growth method
08:17 < n_bentha> http://www.smallfiles.org/download/243/Spider_Silk.pdf.html
08:17 < diginet> the only ones worth it are CVD
08:17 < katsmeow-afk> question: how is ruby related to diamond in structure and composition , is it a density and Si vs C composition thing?
08:17 < _Sketch_> I'm really surprised there aren't commercial backless OLED displays...
08:18 < _Sketch_> It seems like there'd be a demand for them, but maybe I'm crazy.
08:18 < n_bentha> Al2O3:Cr = ruby
08:18 < diginet> katsmeow-afk, ruby is corundum, which is fairly close in it's hardness (9 on the mohs scale)
08:18 < _Sketch_> What's the spider web/silk conversation about?
08:18 < diginet> it's also a LOT easier to make
08:18 < katsmeow-afk> i ask because i have seen a few diy ruby-growing projects, some making 1 inch diameter ruby crystals
08:18 < kanzure> _Sketch_: DIY protein production. making spider silk.
08:18 < diginet> you can use the very well undertood Czochralski process
08:19 < _Sketch_> Sweet.
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08:19 < diginet> katsmeow-afk, where?!?! I've been looking for those forever!
08:19 < diginet> _Sketch_, in case you didn't know, spider silk is an amazing material which is approx 3 times stronger than kevlar (well, that of N. Clavipes is, which is the most studied example, and the second strongest)
08:20 < diginet> it also has amazing elasticity properties
08:20 < katsmeow-afk> i also read a diy project trying to be commercial in Russia, where they use heat/presssure systems in large buildings, and offset the energy needs of the process by selling the heat to the building owner in winter
08:20 < diginet> katsmeow-afk, yeah, that's the HPHT method, which isn't practical
08:20 < katsmeow-afk> diginet, even going back to 1965(?) ARRL magazine QST
08:20 < katsmeow-afk> they were growing for making ruby lasers
08:21 < diginet> hmm, I was probably looking in the wrong places
08:21 < diginet> I was looking a few months ago, for "diy czochralski process" and found nothing
08:21 < katsmeow-afk> prolly, hence kansure's project to make an open magazine repository :-)
08:22 < kanzure> magazine?? what the fuck
08:22 < _Sketch_> diginet: I vaguely knew that, but thanks for the memory jog and details.
08:22 < katsmeow-afk> ok, article
08:22 < kanzure> diginet: there's also #homecmos on this network
08:22 < kanzure> article??
08:22 < kanzure> wtf
08:22 < diginet> _Sketch_, no problem
08:22 < kanzure> diginet: http://gnusha.org/skdb
08:22  * katsmeow-afk makes a note to bite kanzure
08:22 < diginet> kanzure, fascinating! yes, homecmos is something we NEED
08:22 < kanzure> yep
08:22 < diginet> that was my interest in diamond though, diamond is vastly superior to silicon, as a semiconductor
08:23 < diginet> at the very least, it would be crucial for use as a heat spreader
08:23 < diginet> I was working on enriching carbon, as isotopically pure carbon is something 50% better at heat conduction
08:23 < diginet> the problem with diamond semiconductors is that n-type doping is very hard (or is it p? I don't remember)
08:23 < _Sketch_> I've been here less than thirty minutes and I'm already enthralled. ;) Might stick around.
08:24 < diginet> haha
08:24 < kanzure> _Sketch_: yes we try to be comprehensively awesome
08:24 < diginet> I love this sort of place, I tell people about my ideas and they just assume its impossible
08:24 < ThomasEgi> was that irony?
08:25 < kanzure> we also have bodybuilders http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmTNtSs1UQY
08:25 < diginet> as cliche as it sounds, anything which doesn't violate the laws of physics, is by definition possible, but if you assume it isn't you'll never get there
08:25 < diginet> well, other people
08:25 < kanzure> but also lab automation projects http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY5IY5CZ1es&list=FL1sapBsRQ1__rgp7qWs0cow&index=8&feature=plpp_video
08:25 < kanzure> dfjkldafjkl;fja fuck that link
08:25 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY5IY5CZ1es
08:26 < diginet> anyhow, right now I'm focused on spider silk, I'm determined to make some
08:27 < diginet> mostly because I want some samples of Darwin's bark spider, and seeing as how there's no chance in hell a university is going to send some random kid a specimen, I need to prove I'm not crazy :P
08:27 < kanzure> _Sketch_: how'd you find us?
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08:28 < n_bentha> diginet, did u see the pdf outlining spider silk?
08:28 < diginet> n_bentha, oh yeah I downloaded it, but forgot to read it! brb
08:29 < _Sketch_> kanzure: Asked a genie
08:29 < kanzure> _Sketch_: sounds tight
08:29 < katsmeow-afk> well, in google, i am finding me saying in 2008 that i remember the QST article, but i am still not finding the article
08:29 < _Sketch_> but seriously a friend directed me here.
08:29 < katsmeow-afk> i find mention of an ARRL contest involving communication by laser back then
08:31 < n_bentha> let me know if u have any questions. i made that a year ago late one night--sorry it's not very polished or good. but the diagrams and citations should help
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08:32 < diginet> n_bentha, that was amazing!
08:32 < diginet> thank you so much
08:32 < diginet> are you involved in this at a Uni?
08:32 < diginet> (I saw U of Winnipeg mentioned)
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08:34 < n_bentha> no, i am just interested in spider silk. lots of cool things could be done.
08:34 < diginet> yes, well, cool to find someone else interested :)
08:35 < diginet> here's one idea I had: culture the cells which produce the silk proteins in the spider's silk glands
08:35 < diginet> though, somehow, I think it's not that simple :(
08:35 < n_bentha> but...it seems like the bioengineering of silk (to incorporate other proteins into the structure) for medical applications is the way to go...unless they somehow get more strength of the silks and ramp up production so they can make clothes/fibers?
08:36 < n_bentha> diginet: it's not making the proteins. it's how the environment of of the proteins in the dope changes
08:36 < n_bentha> on p.19 i list a few of the changes in the ma gland
08:37 < diginet> n_bentha, well yes, but one could build an artificial gland, what I'm referring to is the difficulty in producing high quality precursors
08:38 < diginet> as I mentioned earlier, a problem with making the proteins in E. Coli is that they get truncated, I've been up to 250 kDa from E. Coli, which is the lower end of the range in natural silk, but the average is much higher at 300-320 kDa
08:38 < n_bentha> Ah. I had a crazy idea: extract the glands, and put them in a bio-incubator/reactor (w/e it's called), so that you have them all living together in a system producing silk.
08:38 < diginet> can that be. . .done?
08:38 < kanzure> what are the requirements to keep those glands alive?
08:39 < n_bentha> Yeah idk. I just was day-dreaming when that one popped into my head.
08:39 < diginet> the problem is, you still have to farm the spiders to get the glands
08:39 < kanzure> that's fine, spider farming sounds fun
08:39 < diginet> well, except that like to eat each other
08:39 < n_bentha> Probably the same as human organs?
08:39 < n_bentha> Maybe fewer requirements. Lots of protein! They eat their silk and resuse it.
08:39 < diginet> haha
08:40 < kanzure> another option might be any insect that has a similar gland during its cocooning phase
08:41 < kanzure> don't some caterpillars make silk?
08:41 < diginet> well, basically from what I've read, the major methods proposed are: silkworms, high protein plants, microorganism-based, milk based (i.e. goats)
08:41 < diginet> all have problems, I'm not a fan of the plant one though, the milk one less so
08:42 < diginet> the silkworm one is doable, but impractical, silkworms require a lot to farm
08:42 < n_bentha> yes kanzure.
08:42 < n_bentha> they've made transgenic silkworms
08:42 < diginet> yeah, at Notre Dame
08:42 < n_bentha> but the silk isn't as good
08:42 < diginet> yeah
08:43 < diginet> the thing which was nice about the E Coli process was that it didn't require chromatography to purify the protein, the purification was actually really simple
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08:44 < _Sketch_> Gotta get to work. See you all later.
08:44 < diginet> bye!
08:44 < kanzure> work! bah
08:44 < katsmeow-afk> i am still finding nothing on the QST article from the 60's, the best search terms i have is this : http://duckduckgo.com/?q=ruby+seed+temperature+growth
08:44 < diginet> IMO, the ideal option would be something which excretes some sort of substance that can be easily harvested, but is easy to take care of (that is, NOT goats)
08:44 < _Sketch_> Lots of money for me! ;)
08:44 < diginet> SELLOUT
08:44 < diginet> just kidding :P
08:45 < diginet> DON'T WORK FOR THE MAN, MAN
08:45  * _Sketch_ laughs.
08:45 < katsmeow-afk> the qst article laid out construction of the melt vat, heater, mechanicals, power supplies, everything
08:45 < _Sketch_> I actually enjoy it, and make decent money besides. Anyway...woosh
08:45 < katsmeow-afk> oh well, technology lost
08:45 < diginet> katsmeow-afk, thanks! perfect
08:46 < diginet> _Sketch_, no, I totally see how thats possible, seeya
08:46 < kanzure> _Sketch_: me too. i'm just being an angry irc user :)
08:46  * diginet 's room is on fire, but instead of dialing 911, he's going to ask his fellow IRCers what to do
08:46 < kanzure> diginet: what about paralyzed spiders?
08:47 < kanzure> besids the feeding issues
08:47 < kanzure> *besides
08:47 < diginet> kanzure, it likely degrades the quality, and the question of how one gets them still comes to mind
08:47 < diginet> forcible silking is impractical anyway
08:47 < kanzure> and also, it's less interesting than transformations etc.
08:47 < katsmeow-afk> it's like finding Mouser sells 1Gsps adc for $36, but the oem was sold and the price doubled and wait times to the usa are 6 months at etc etc
08:47 < diginet> plus, I'd feel bad for them :(
08:47 < n_bentha> ...but even when you have the silk proteins...it's not as strong as you want because u have to spin it right
08:48 < n_bentha> ya forcible silking is what they've been doing...
08:48 < n_bentha> it don't work
08:48 < diginet> well, the spinning apparatuses built thus far have been very primitive, I think there is plently of room for improvement there
08:48 < n_bentha> Yes. Microfluidics is the future
08:48 < kanzure> THE FUTURE
08:48 < diginet> I'm fairly certain the spinning mechanism is pretty well understood, it would be not too inconceivable of building something close enough tot it
08:48 < diginet> *to it
08:49 < kanzure> n_bentha: what fluidic spinning apparatus would you suggest?
08:49 < diginet> kanzure, I'm a fan of electrospinning
08:49 < kanzure> oh right
08:50 < diginet> as mentioned, it's not quite the same, but Theo Gray describes how to spin your own nylon fibers in one of his books
08:50 < kanzure> yeah, electrospinning in microfluidics should be a thing
08:50 < n_bentha> I don't know enough about it, kanzure.
08:50 < n_bentha> Sorry :(
08:50 < kanzure> diginet: on a related note.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Towards%20a%20Spiderman%20suit%20-%20large%20invisible%20cables%20and%20self-cleaning%20releasable%20superadhesive%20materials.pdf
08:51 < diginet> the problem with all this stuff, is the incredibly low single to noise ratio when researching such things with buzzword names, on sites like physorg, you just get a bunch of hacks talking about "carbon metamaterials" which no clue of what they're talking about
08:51 < kanzure> physorg is not something i'd recommend to ever use
08:51 < diginet> kanzure, are you bryan bishop? I've read some of your stuff on the diybio group, great stuff :) thought I recognized the url
08:51 < kanzure> yes this is bryan
08:52 < diginet> well, it's a pleasure, and an honor
08:52 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, some sites like that are 1:100::signal:noise
08:52 < diginet> well, it's not just that even, when I read papers, even from academic journals, you get a bunch of junk stuff, people don't realize: phenomenology is not science
08:52 < Mariu> nice presentation on the 3D printer, kanzure
08:52 < diginet> the word science is so abused, tbh
08:52 < Mariu> wathinc an YouTube video with you
08:53 < Mariu> *watching
08:53 < kanzure> Mariu: you might be more interested in the videos here.. http://diyhpl.us:9001/
08:53 < Mariu> thanks
08:54 < diginet> kanzure, on the subject of those journal articles I have. Since you're relatively close by, maybe I could mail you them on a DVD? It's actually not 200GiB, meant to type 20
08:54 < diginet> so, 5 DVDs or so, not too bad
08:54 < kanzure> diginet: that's one possibility, or you could upload them to a server?
08:54 < diginet> I would, but my connection is ridiculously slow
08:54 < diginet> good 'ol sneakernet never lets you down :)
08:55 < kanzure> wait, it's not sneakers if you are mailing it
08:55 < n_bentha> hey kanz, has yashgaroth been around the last couple days?
08:55 < kanzure> n_bentha: yes
08:55 < n_bentha> k. didn't remember seeing him
08:55 < diginet> kanzure, if I send it via carrier pigeon, does that count :P
08:56 < kanzure> only if the pigeon is genetically modified
08:56 < diginet> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt
08:56 < n_bentha> do cyborg pidegeons count?
08:56 < katsmeow-afk> properly mod'd, the pigeon need not carry the dvds
08:57 < diginet> what if I clone a passenger pigeon, and then send you the data via that?
08:57 < kanzure> snailmail is fine
08:57 < kanzure> er, i mean, the postal service, not actual snails
08:57 < diginet> could a sparrow carry a DVD? though? maybe if two got together?
08:57 < diginet> kanzure, hhaahah
08:57 < n_bentha> what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen sparrow?
08:57 < diginet> lol
08:58 < diginet> oh gawd, that made me think of something
08:58 < kanzure> is that a monty python joke?
08:58 < diginet> that is, but what I thought of isn't
08:59 < katsmeow-afk> flocks of pigeons, an 8-wide array, fly overhead to deliver the data
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09:01 < diginet> so, a few years ago, I was watching this godawful disney channel movie with my sister.  The plot is that there's this girl who's a "physics genius" but also wants to be an ice skater, so she tries to develop "equations" for ice-skating so she can be a better skater. (Which makes no sense considering human mechanics are not a mystery, but for some odd reason, physiologists aren't olympic atheletes).  Anyway, she's at this pa
09:01 < diginet> rty, and she starts "geeking" out.  This guy she has a crush on, then comes over and start's talking with her.  The girl, surprised he understands her says: "Velocity, acceleration? how do you know about that stuff?"
09:01 < diginet> as if one has to be a so-called "physics genius" to know what either of those are. . .
09:02 < katsmeow-afk> one could have aspergers and not know other people can know things
09:02 < n_bentha> hahaha
09:02 < diginet> maybe the moral of the story was that the girl was a self-absorbed asshole
09:03 < n_bentha> Didn't she want to go to harvard or something?
09:03 < diginet> and not some shrill "BE YOURSELF" abortion of a "moral"
09:03 < diginet> YES! and she gave it down to iceskate
09:03 < kanzure> your first mistake is taking physics lessons from disney channel
09:03 < diginet> any lesson, physics or otherwise
09:03 < kanzure> i think it also has something to do with appealing to viewers.. i.e. "OH SHIT, I KNOW THOSE THINGS TOO!"
09:03 < diginet> it needs no qualifiers
09:03 < n_bentha> I think it's just funny that she was gonna go to Harvard cuz it's the end all be all for a physics genius.
09:03 < diginet> yeah exactly
09:03 < n_bentha>  /sarcasm
09:04 < diginet> but nobody knows University of Chicago, which would probably be better
09:04 < n_bentha> Oh oh, that reminds me. I need to look into that janelia farms gradschool program w/ univ chicago
09:04 < diginet> it's weird how people think anything that's not Ivy/Top Tier is a dump.  maybe that's true in humanities, which are dumps wherever, but in the sciences state schools are fine
09:05 < kanzure> wtf? i've never heard of this before.. apparently there's such a thing as "patent infringement insurance"
09:05 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_infringement#Patent_infringement_insurance
09:05 < kanzure> "Instead, only a mandatory scheme was considered to be viable in order to provide the economic and technical benefits to the EU and individual patentees which would arise from a widespread PLI scheme"
09:05 < diginet> I don't have a problem with humanities, in theory, I love history. However, the utter lack of rigour in most humanities departments, at least, in my experiences, is appaling
09:05 < n_bentha> I went to a really expensive elite university my first year. The science dept. sucked. The humanities and arts were so much better. I quickly transferred.
09:05 < diginet> ah? interesting
09:06 < diginet> kanzure: that already exists, it's called "protection racket"
09:06 < kanzure> diginet: yes, well, the patent system is a broken racket anyway
09:06 < diginet> speaking of racket
09:06 < diginet> is it just me, or is the new .xxx domain zone not a BLATANT protection racket?
09:07 < kanzure> but i mean: patent infringement insurance to open source hardware makers would be interesting.. you'd probably have very few claims because most of the time, nobody prosecutes for your crap (if you're not selling); if you are selling, that changes it a bit
09:07 < diginet> one thing that bothers me are the absurd laws over trademark abandonment, where companies are forced into litigation over irrational fears
09:08 < diginet> in many cases where they don't WANT to sue
09:08 < diginet> the patent system is just ridiculous though
09:09 < diginet> in its original form, it made perfect sense, but now, it's just gotten insane
09:09 < diginet> I don't think they should go away entirely (though software patents should) but I think the selling of them should not be allowed
09:09 < katsmeow-afk> this just in: doctor's license pulled after 2nd patient dies getting supposed stem cell therapy which was unapproved by FDA and unregulated
09:10 < diginet> that would prevent usless cancres like intellectual ventures from existing
09:10 < n_bentha> 0_o
09:14 < katsmeow-afk> diginet, or the situation where to cya, you need to patent every little step that caused the intellectual property to exist
09:14 < diginet> exactly
09:14 < katsmeow-afk> Patent #09484502645023429347028934 : shake the vial this way
09:15 < diginet> the problem I have with patents is mainly, where does property of nature, and innovation end and begin
09:15 < diginet> I mean technically everything is a property of nature
09:15 < diginet> but like, I can't patent talking, or sound obviously
09:15 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, the idea of patenting human genome is being revisited
09:15 < diginet> I don't like the idea of patenting DNA, numbers, or even certain chemical reactions
09:16 < katsmeow-afk> "you cannot have kids, i own the genes you will be transferring, and i won't allow it"
09:17 < diginet> I think a better system would to have some sort of system where investors and inventors would sign some sort of special NDA, where the invention is documented, so if the investor tried to rip off the inventor it can be proven
09:17 < kanzure> diginet: i think you are just insufficiently creative or convincing, if you can't patent those things
09:17 < diginet> kanzure, hmmm?
09:17 < kanzure> diginet: that already exists, it's covered by trade secret law
09:17 < kanzure> the whole point of patents was to have technology published instead of remaining a secret
09:17 < kanzure> but instead it's become a regulatory/litigation scheme instead of a public technology commons
09:18 < diginet> sure, but what's the point, a patent, by definition precludes others from making  use of it
09:18 < kanzure> after the patent expires it presumably helps you make the devie.. but in practice the information in it is just legalese
09:18 < kanzure> *device
09:18 < katsmeow-afk> but you can possibly make improvements on it, or sideways offshoots
09:18 < kanzure> a realistic technology repository for 2012 would include things like, oh i dunno, CAD files. god damn.
09:19 < diginet> I dunno how one would fix it, tbh
09:19 < diginet> it's certainly not an easy problem to solve
09:19 < kanzure> i've seen some interesting suggestions but i have no favorites yet
09:19 < diginet> yeah
09:19 < kanzure> for instance, some people suggest taxing patents (since it's "property")
09:19 < diginet> oh, that's a very good one
09:19 < kanzure> others suggest limiting the term of patents
09:19 < kanzure> others suggest abolishing patents (but i don't see how to realistically convince people to go with this)
09:20 < diginet> I don't think that's a good idea anyway
09:20 < kanzure> others suggest patents being issued but only for defensive litigation purposes
09:20 < diginet> I think that if it can proven that a company files patents with no intention of every utilizing them, they should be invalidated
09:20 < katsmeow-afk> India has taken to forced licensing, or just dissolving them
09:20 < diginet> of course that's hard to prove
09:20  * n_bentha leaves for lab meetings
09:20 < diginet> bye bye
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09:20  * katsmeow-afk leaves to do things irl too
09:20 < kanzure> diginet: there are other issues though, like non-profit-making activity still counts as infringement.. and that significantly hinders a lot of work
09:21 < diginet> kanzure, indeed
09:21 < diginet> which is absurd
09:22 < kanzure> also, the patent system itself is completely against open source hardware
09:22 < diginet> I mean, let's say, for example, that some process of making diamonds is patented, but I read the patent and make a diamond for myself, with no intent of capitalizing it.  If I keep my mouth shut, sure, I'll be fine. But let's say I tell a friend, and then he tells a friend and so on.  I've infringed on the patent, and thus incur legal damages, just for doing something otherwise totally unharmful
09:22 < kanzure> open source software is doable because of some trickery with copyright law
09:23 < kanzure> here are some studies:
09:23 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/open-source/
09:23 < kanzure> hod's report in that directory was an ok overview
09:23 < diginet> same reason I hate the DMCA, the idea that one doesn't have sovereignty over their own property, save for situations where the intent is to harm someone, is scary
09:24 < diginet> it's just so crazy to me, to think that I could in theory be sued for performing some procedure that is otherwise perfectly legal merely because someone thought of it first
09:25 < kanzure> you can be sued for anything
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09:25 < diginet> well, I know, but sued, and there be a case for it
09:25 < kanzure> patent litigation is the same way. you might even have proof that you do not infringe their patent or that their patent is invalid.. but you still have to go through with the litigation.
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09:26 < diginet> you know aerogel.org? it's just so weird to me, to think the patent holder had to give PERMISSION for people to make something, which wasn't a contraband
09:26 < diginet> capitalization is one thing
09:26 < ThomasEgi> wouldnt patent issues be mostly a no-concern for DIY people? i mean dont they affect commercial products only?
09:26 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: no.. it also non-commercial work that is subject to patents
09:26 < kanzure> patents are pretty broad.
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09:26 < diginet> oh, I'll give you a perfectly good example of something alone the same lines
09:26 < kanzure> hi Replop1
09:27 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: see http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/documents/appxl_35_U_S_C_271.htm
09:27 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: 35 U.S.C. 271
09:27 < diginet> this may not be the case anyway, but at one time in Texas law, owning lab equipment, for example, and erlenmeyer flask required one to register that with the government, even if you made it yourself
09:27 < kanzure> "Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the United States, or imports into the United States any patented invention during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent."
09:27 < kanzure> diginet: err i'm pretty sure that's still the case for glassware in texas.
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09:27 < diginet> it's just so bizarre, that it is illegal to own an arbitrary shaped piece of glass without permission
09:28 < diginet> chop off the neck, and it's a decoration
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09:28 < Replop> hi kanzure
09:28 < kanzure> diginet: you and i both need to register to get a license to carry a concealed petridish
09:28 < diginet> HAHAAHHAA
09:28 < kanzure> "concealed petridish license"
09:29 < diginet> I can just imagine going into a restaurant, a women sees a circular buldge in my backpocket, everyone screams and cowers in the corner. I hold up my hands calmy, pull the petri dish out, and set it down.  I say, "it's okay everyone, I have a license" and proceed to show it to the proprietor
09:30 < ThomasEgi> ... this world... needs to burn a whole bunch of bullshitlaws.
09:30 < kanzure> i think you need to say you have a license before pulling it out
09:30 < kanzure> otherwise they think you have harmful intent
09:31 < Replop> and if you are caught without a licence, you will be shiped to a high security lab
09:31 < diginet> here's a fun activity
09:32  * kanzure goes back to writing code for pokemon red
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09:32 < diginet> in many states, blasphemy is still illegal, so here's what you do, grab a friend, go down to a police station, curse God, then have your friend perform a citizen's arrest, take you in, and show where the law is in the books (provided its there)
09:33 < kanzure> actually, it might be cool to have blasphemy on my rap sheet
09:34 < kanzure> i'll get all the esoteric laws broekn.
09:34 < diginet> fact: whaling is illegal in Oklahoma
09:40 < diginet> anyow
09:40 < diginet> *anyhow
09:40 < diginet> hmm, it's so bewildering how many variables there are to consider with genetic engineering
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10:09 < diginet>  hmm, I'm doing some reading on codon optimization
10:09 < diginet> interesting stuff, too bad the vast majority of it is heavily proprietary
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10:11 < kanzure> diginet: there are a lot of people who would be willing to contribute to an open source implementation, if someone starts off with a good base
10:12 < diginet> I'm juggling so many projects right now, not to mention school, so I can't exactly lead that up right now, BUT, I will try and record whatever I find and share it
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10:55 < _Sketch_> I recommend the Getting Things Done method, though I haven't completely implemented it in my life. I have a huge project board that I write down the steps for all my projects on. Actually, I need more board.
10:56 < fenn> i'm about 50% through that book :P
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10:57 < fenn> whew, thought my myvu was irreparably dead, but it was just the battery: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_6540.JPG
10:58 < kanzure> _Sketch_: that's probably something you should look at
11:02 < diginet> _Sketch_: whiteboards are my lifeline! haha
11:02 < kanzure> fenn: so does caffeine do anything for you?
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11:02 < diginet> pads, and whiteboards, those are the things I ask for, ahah
11:03 < fenn> it's a multiplier on all the other stuff
11:03 < fenn> if i'm sleep deprived i just feel more sleep deprived
11:03 < diginet> kanzure, oddly, caffeine has no observable effect on me. (and yes, I have tested it fairly rigorously)
11:03 < kanzure> diginet: same.. or it makes me sleepy?
11:03 < fenn> but if i'm in good shape and reasonable blood sugar, prepare to kick some ass
11:03 < diginet> which is especially odd, considering I take methylphenidate for ADHD
11:03 < kanzure> diginet: i also take some stimulants for ADHD.
11:04 < katsmeow-afk> makes me sleepy if i eat caffine during the day
11:04 < fenn> i've been drinking green tea religiously the past couple weeks
11:04 < diginet> yeah, it doesn't have the "ZOMG I CAN STAY UP ALL NIGHT" effect on me, rather I don't feel scatterbrained
11:04 < katsmeow-afk> i just found out why the house has been so cool upstairs so far this year: it's been underwater
11:04 < diginet> ?
11:04 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk is a hermit
11:04 < kanzure> doesn't check whether or not her house is submerged
11:05 < fenn> like yoda, in a swamp she lives
11:05 < diginet> I'm an urban hermit, lol
11:05 < katsmeow-afk> there's a 24x32 sorta flat area of the roof, watertight, with two drains and an overflow area, both drains stopped up, tehre's been 6 inches of water up there
11:05 < diginet> woah
11:05 < diginet> potential health hazard, or free cooling system? YOU DECIDE
11:06 < katsmeow-afk> well, anything growing it it can potentially burrow thru the waterproofing, and wreck the roof, so i cleared the drains
11:06 < diginet> hah yeah
11:07 < fenn> more myvu stuff, if you're curious about the image quality: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_6535.JPG (note this is zoomed in a bit, you won't get a full screen with this level of detail)
11:07 < diginet> I had something similar to that happen to me, the air conditioner condensation chamber blew up, and the roof in rome literally collapsed taking the sheetrock with it, all over everything
11:07 < diginet> amazingly, the damage actually wasn't that bad, to the stuff that is, the roof of course was obliterated
11:08 < katsmeow-afk> condensaton chamber?
11:08 < diginet> yeah, it stores the condensed water
11:08 < katsmeow-afk> why do you store condensed water?
11:08 < diginet> or maybe I'm getting that wrong, there's some sort of chamber which holds water for some purpose, but I don't know HVAC very well
11:08 < diginet> no, it's not on purpose, it's supposed to drain out, but it got clogged or something
11:09 < katsmeow-afk> i cannot imagine the stored water being explosive
11:09 < diginet> well, I don't know if it exploded, the water which was supposed to drain didn't and spilled over or something and caused the roof to collapse
11:10 < katsmeow-afk> hmm,, unless it backed up and submerged the evaporator, which you should have noticed, and fed liquid freon to the compressor, which then blew up and dumped the freon charge at high pressure,, i am reaching here,, i don't get it
11:10 < katsmeow-afk> oh
11:11 < fenn> _Sketch_: you aren't going to find a miniature thermal IR camera
11:11 < fenn> also they start at around $3k
11:11 < katsmeow-afk> the water wight did it to you,, ok, my roof is held up and down with steel beams 8ft on center
11:12 < katsmeow-afk> flir starts at $3k, but b&w ccd with no glass lenses will deteck IR
11:12 < katsmeow-afk> the "pinhole" cameras
11:14 < fenn> sure, but there's a huge difference between near and far IR
11:14 < katsmeow-afk> i didn't know he specified
11:14 < fenn> notably that CMOS doesn't work in that band gap, or any semiconductor really
11:15 < fenn> "I'm looking for small cameras (< 1in), low-resolution, to mount to my sunglasses to make a thermal imaging system. Feasible?"
11:15 < fenn> i guess the only way to find out is to take apart one of those handheld thermal cameras
11:15 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, pinhole cameras will show an image at IR (below red and invisable to humans)
11:16 < katsmeow-afk> if it's good enough for any purpose, i dunno, your call
11:17 < fenn> sure, but my point is that thermal IR (i.e. glowing black objects in a dark room) is not visible to standard imaging chips
11:17 < katsmeow-afk> i believe you may be correct
11:17  * fenn cleans up and prepares to head home
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11:19 < diginet> so this is bizarre, according to this paper I just read, black widow MaSp1 and 2 genes lack introns
11:20 < diginet> they are made up one exon 10k and 12k bp in length, respectivelly, that's really. . .odd
11:20 < diginet> but helpful! it makes transfection easier :)
11:21 < katsmeow-afk> a few near $1k : http://halfvalue.com/wiki.jsp?topic=FLIR
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12:02 < ParahSailin> im not sure if i mentioned a spider silk project, maybe you are thinking of elastin like peptides
12:03 < kanzure> :(
12:05 < ParahSailin> what about spider silk
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12:05 < kanzure> ParahSailin: nothing.. just some earlier discussion today about electrospinning and getting ecoli to spit out some precursors
12:07 < ParahSailin> not sure what sort of recombinant stuff youd want to do -- silkworms make pretty good fibers
12:08 < diginet> ParahSailin, I was the one who brough it up, I was trying to figure out the best way to get MaSp1/2 proteins which are comparable to their natural analogues.  It's difficult, because they're huge (350 kDa, 10-12k bp) so are generally truncated, intenttionally or unintentionally
12:09 < diginet> most papers I've seen use subsets which are 50-60 kDa, since the genese are highly modular, this is possible, but it greatly degrades the properties unfortunately
12:09 < ParahSailin> what do those do
12:10 < diginet> I forget which is which, but basically spider silk is sort of like if you imagine a train, where the cars are coupled together, one protein provides the tensile strength, while the other provides the elasticity
12:11 < ParahSailin> MaSp are spidroins?
12:11 < diginet> yeah
12:11 < diginet> Major ampullate (dragline) spidroin
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12:12 < ParahSailin> maybe express in insect cells
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12:12 < diginet> the spinning problem is compartively easier to solve, because the physiology of the silk glands and spinnerrettes are relatively well understood and could be emulated well enough
12:13 < diginet> hmm, that's what I thought, do you think it would be possible to culture the gland cells which produce the proteins?
12:14 < ParahSailin> establish cell line of new species, not exactly trivial
12:14 < diginet> I figured as much
12:14 < diginet> are there any insect cell lines which would be conducive targets?
12:14 < diginet> or rather, pre-existing ones
12:15 < ParahSailin> sf9 or sf21 are good producers in baculovirus expression systems
12:15 < diginet> I'll look into those
12:15 < ParahSailin> i could get those for you
12:15 < diginet> oh, well thanks :)
12:15 < ParahSailin> shit you're in houston
12:15 < diginet> oh yeah! wait, what's your name? kanzure was telling me to meet someone else in Houston
12:15 < ParahSailin> dr. tao at rice has sf9 cells, i could get them from her
12:16 < diginet> seriously?
12:16 < diginet> wow
12:16 < ParahSailin> rob
12:16 < kanzure> oh, i forgot ParahSailin is also in houston
12:16 < diginet> okay, hmm, I can't remember, I'm kevin by the way
12:16 < kanzure> anyway, both of you should go meet jacob and forrest
12:16 < diginet> haha
12:17 < diginet> now, one question I've been trying to answer, to not much avail, is: what is there in the literature in terms of methods to optimize transcription rate?
12:17 < ParahSailin> optimize transcription rate of what?
12:18 < ParahSailin> jacob and forrest?
12:18 < ParahSailin> hehe, got my letter of recommendation back from aubrey
12:18 < diginet> a given gene, let's say I put generic gene A into E. Coli for example, what methods, if any, are there to increase the rate of transcription of the gene into RNA (sorry if I'm using the wrong terminology)
12:18 < ParahSailin> hope it gets me that startup chile money
12:19 < ParahSailin> T7 promoter is the standard way
12:19 < diginet> is the process fairly well understood?
12:20 < ParahSailin> yah
12:20 < kanzure> oh, i wasn't aware that he was looking for a promoter
12:20 < kanzure> i thought you said your problem was that only a portion of the protein gets transcribed?
12:21 < diginet> well, what about enhancers?
12:21  * ParahSailin is dumbly answering the precise question asked
12:21 < diginet> kanzure, well, that's the primary one, I was just curious about optimization
12:21 < diginet> ParahSailin, no no you're fine! haha
12:21 < ParahSailin> if you want the whole rna transcribed, you probably should do baculovirus in insect cells
12:22 < ParahSailin> i dunno if yeast systems could handle that stuff
12:22 < ParahSailin> i imagine if abortive transcription is a problem, than going the least evolutionary distance between original gene and expresser is a good idea
12:23 < diginet> ParahSailin, they can't, I've already read a paper which showed that yeast cells truncated the gene
12:23 < kanzure> all genes? or this specific gene
12:23 < ParahSailin> yah then you are stuck with insect cells
12:23 < diginet> well, I gather any of this length
12:23 < ParahSailin> or human cells
12:23 < diginet> SPIDERMAN
12:23 < kanzure> look on the bright side.. an insecct cell culture sounds fucking rad
12:23 < kanzure> *insect
12:24 < ParahSailin> i only mention human cells because i have some of the stuff for that already
12:24 < diginet> yeah
12:24 < ParahSailin> id really like an excuse to get some of those insect cells from dr tao
12:24 < ParahSailin> just couldnt justify myself buying the media for growing them
12:24 < kanzure> "ah yes, and here's my nigerian fire monster cell culture. what? the name, you ask? well, you see, they are called fire monsters because-- OH MY GOD WE HAVE TO LEAVE RIGHT THIS MOMENT"
12:25 < kanzure> there's probably no 'nigerian fire ant' though.. have to pick something good
12:27 < diginet> ParahSailin, are these insect specimens, or cell lines?
12:27 < ParahSailin> cell lines
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12:27 < ParahSailin> i might be able to source some baculovirus system somewhere
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12:31 < diginet> I actually think this could come together
12:32 < diginet> ParahSailin, I don't suppose spider cell lines exist, do they?
12:32 < ParahSailin> i know a guy still at rice who's at the brc
12:33 < ParahSailin> i dont think so
12:35 < diginet> brc?
12:37 < ParahSailin> the new building at rice
12:37 < ParahSailin> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcb.23187/abstract?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage= can  someone hax this for me?
12:37 < kanzure> yeh one sec..
12:38 < ParahSailin> im looking for a pi at rice who has a baculovirus system
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12:39 < kanzure> grr i hate wiley
12:39 < kanzure> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/jcb.23187/asset/23187_ftp.pdf?v=1&amp;t=h0jx9pcl&amp;s=40a38f56dd40730d8f2cba2303a6aa6761c48716
12:39 < kanzure> what the hell kinda url is that
12:39 < diginet> oh the physics building?
12:39 < ParahSailin> no not that one
12:39 < ParahSailin> the research collaborative
12:40 < ParahSailin> wait you just found a secret url for that?
12:40 < kanzure> hold oonnn
12:40 < ParahSailin> thats superhax
12:40 < diginet> paywall journals are a horrible racket
12:40 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/tumor_necrosis.pdf
12:40 < diginet> urgh
12:41 < kanzure> diginet: we're creating the science liberation front
12:41 < kanzure> with a complete copy of all papers
12:41 < diginet> YES
12:41 < diginet> haha
12:41 < diginet> well, there's an easy way to stop it
12:41 < kanzure> a few of us are writing scrapers to hook into the broader system
12:41 < diginet> just make any university which receives public funding (I gather most to some degree) stop using paywall journals
12:42 < ParahSailin> i think dr tao also has the bac-to=bac system
12:42 < diginet> I know it would be hard, but there is no reason for their existince
12:42 < ParahSailin> one stop shop
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12:44 < diginet> nice
12:47 < diginet> so anyway
12:47 < diginet> uhh
12:49 < diginet> let me see if I understand the process well enough: isolate the gene, extract it, insert it into a vector along with the appropriate promotor, use the vector to insert the DNA into the target cell
12:49 < kanzure> "We have decided to not transfer history of OCCT versions prior to 6.5.0 to Git, in order to (a) keep reasonable size of the repository and (b) have meaningful and clean history."
12:49 < kanzure> "For the history: prior to 2010 the OCCT sources have been stored in SCCS system, and even if we tried to preserve consistency as much as possible when converting to SVN (through CVS), the resulting SVN repository exhibits some problems (e.g. merges for code based on old versions do not work well) when dealing with history that came from SCCS."
12:49 < kanzure> "This also caused troubles (sudden failures) in conversion to Git. Thus we kept only the part of the history which is sure to be clean."
12:49 < kanzure> "For the size: our current SVN repository weights 1.5 Gb, and being converted to Git with full history it yields ~500 Mb. Compare this to 70 Mb of the current repository."
12:50 < kanzure> mehhh
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12:59 < delinquentme> OCCT ?
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13:01 < kanzure> delinquentme: opencasade stuff
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13:01 < kanzure> nmz787: sup
13:06 < delinquentme> who in here is good with electrical engineering?
13:07 < ThomasEgi> ←
13:07 < kanzure> at least thomas, superkuh, fenn, ..
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13:08 < delinquentme> ThomasEgi, know much about resonance in stepper motors?
13:09 < ThomasEgi> resonance steppers?... that sounds pretty odd..
13:09 < ThomasEgi> i do know about resonance and steppers
13:10 < ThomasEgi> and rigid body systems in motion in general.
13:10 < ThomasEgi> what's the particular issue you are running into?
13:14 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme, ?
13:14 < delinquentme> ThomasEgi, right now theres no issues .. basically I'd prefer not to be troubleshooting EE issues when prototyping
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13:15 < delinquentme> right now all I run with is an arduino
13:15 < nmz787> wouldn't resonance occur if the poles weren't in phase?
13:15 < delinquentme> but when it comes to production other PCBs will be cheaper and more efficient
13:15 < ThomasEgi> you can greatly reduce resonance by using microstepping. most modern driver ic's offer that
13:15 < delinquentme> resonance occurs @ particular rpms in a stepper
13:15 < delinquentme> maybe im using the wrong term
13:15 < ThomasEgi> another way would be to avoid the rpm's at which it resonates
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13:16 < delinquentme> yeah basically accelerate through them
13:16 < delinquentme> i've got an arduino lib to do that atm
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13:16 < ThomasEgi> 3rd option is to change the angular momentum (not sure if that is the right term)
13:16 < ThomasEgi> my adding extra-weights. that pretty much only shifts the problem
13:16 < ThomasEgi> but can shift it into a range where it is of no concern
13:18 < nmz787> is it unipolar?
13:18 < delinquentme> bipolar
13:18 < nmz787> so are you applying power at the exact same time to each pole?
13:18 < delinquentme> no haha
13:18 < nmz787> oh
13:18 < delinquentme> like the resonance point is a non issue
13:19 < nmz787> optimally shouldn't power be applied at same time to each pole?
13:19 < delinquentme> what im after is someone who likes open source hardware and who could act as a solid advisor for EE parts of a syringe pump
13:20 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme, just ask if you want to know anything.
13:20 < delinquentme> kk ill keep it in mind ThomasEgi
13:20 < nmz787> (i'm no EE, so I could be totally wrong!)
13:21 < delinquentme> tanks!
13:21 < delinquentme> nmz787, i think you're right
13:23 < nmz787> "Stepper motors can often exhibit a
13:23 < nmz787> phenomena refered to as resonance at
13:23 < nmz787> certain step rates. This can be seen as a
13:23 < nmz787> sudden loss or drop in torque at certain speeds which can result in missed
13:23 < nmz787> steps or loss of synchronism. It occurs
13:23 < nmz787> when the input step pulse rate coincides with the natural oscillation
13:23 < nmz787> frequency of the rotor. Often there is a
13:23 < nmz787> resonance area around the 100 – 200
13:23 < nmz787> pps region and also one in the high
13:23 < nmz787> step pulse rate region. The resonance
13:23 < nmz787> phenomena of a stepper motor comes
13:23 < nmz787> from its basic construction and therefore it is not possible to eliminate it
13:23 < nmz787> completely. It is also dependent upon
13:23 < nmz787> the load conditions. It can be reduced
13:23 < nmz787> what is pps?
13:24 < ThomasEgi> pulses per second?
13:24 < ThomasEgi> no idea
13:24 < nmz787> hmm, maybe
13:24 < nmz787> delinquentme: are you using an allegro driver chip?
13:25 < nmz787> my roomie is an EE, and I remember him saying allegro has really great chips for this kinda thng
13:25 < delinquentme> yeah basically as you're spinning it there is a particular speed at which it will stop
13:25 < delinquentme> hmm
13:25 < delinquentme> but thats a cost thing then :D
13:26 < delinquentme> im using just a cheap driver chip from digikey
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13:26 < ThomasEgi> for micropumps.. you probably wont step it that fast anyway
13:27 < nmz787> when i was playing with some expensive IDEX pumps we were stepping then with 256 microsteps
13:27 < nmz787> getting nanoliter volumes
13:28 < ThomasEgi> microstepps wont count as steps given as speed for the resonance frequency
13:29 < nmz787> the piston pumps here :http://www.idex-hs.com/about/data_sheets/idexhs_pump_technologies_oem.pdf
13:29 < nmz787> they are definitely a cost item
13:30 < nmz787> i think $500-$800 each
13:30 < nmz787> great for science where you need a gold standard with no hassle.... not so great for hobbyist or optimized production
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13:33 < delinquentme> nmz787, thank you...
13:33 < delinquentme> those are sex
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13:55 < nmz787> :D
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14:30 < kanzure> hi yashgaroth
14:30 < yashgaroth> hey
14:32 < kanzure> possibly bad idea: turntable.fm room for ##hplusroadmap
14:32 < yashgaroth> awww I missed the spider silk protein discussion
14:32 < kanzure> http://turntable.fm/4f7a1aeaaaa5cd1762006cff
14:32 < katsmeow-afk> jrayhawk , at&t just denied me info in Miami, and UPS came out and refused to leave a package addressed to me
14:32 < katsmeow-afk> this is Alabama
14:34 < Mokbortolan_> haha
14:34 < Mokbortolan_> I used to live there
14:34 < Mokbortolan_> horrible state
14:34 < Mokbortolan_> very glad I moved to Oregon
14:34 < jrayhawk> whaaaaaaat
14:34 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@216.183.186.16] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:35 < katsmeow-afk> and the bank, and credit card company, sent a box of checks to the old PO box address, which will be closed and assigned to somene else at any minute, even tho the bank has the correct address
14:35 < ParahSailin> is spidroin self-assembling into fibers?
14:36  * ParahSailin isn't that interested in spider silk in and of itself
14:36 < ParahSailin> but i have connections to get the expression system for free
14:39 < yashgaroth> I still prefer spider ranching if possible
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14:49 < delinquentme> monster rancher?
14:51 < yashgaroth> awww yeee
14:51 < yashgaroth> but yeah baculovirus in insect cells does seem like the best in vitro approach
15:00 < delinquentme> true true
15:00 < delinquentme> ok so ideal situation
15:00 < delinquentme> would be a supplier to support this
15:01 < delinquentme> they'd have engineers and shit as well as the 'raw' inputs
15:01 < delinquentme> and I could stick to mostly code and some mech design
15:03 < kanzure> why not just use the pre-existing syringe pump designs that adrian provided?
15:04 < kanzure> syringe
15:04 < kanzure> fjdkas
15:04 < kanzure> http://staff.bath.ac.uk/ensab/replicator/Pix/syringe-pump-h.jpg
15:04 < kanzure> or this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq4RQHLfJA4
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15:08 < ParahSailin> if one had that spidroin medium supernatant, how hard would that be to make something out of it
15:08 < ParahSailin> if i were gonna do this, i'd do a kickstarter for it
15:10 < diginet> ParahSailin, when did you get back? lol
15:10 < yashgaroth> probably some flow filtration to concentrate it and remove most of the other junk in the media
15:10 < ParahSailin> someone needs to make "bitstarter" which would be kickstarter but wiht bitcoin
15:10 < ParahSailin> i got back i dunno ago
15:11 < diginet> oddly, it doesn't ever say ParahSailin has joined on my client
15:11 < diginet> ah well
15:11 < ParahSailin> i didnt log out
15:11 < kanzure> ParahSailin didn't leave
15:11 < kanzure> except about two hours ago
15:11 < diginet> hmm, did you exit the PM? that must've been it
15:11 < ParahSailin> well yes, after you have it purified, all you have to do to turn it into fibers is electrospinning?
15:12 < ParahSailin> (which im not really sure what that means)
15:12 < diginet> not quite, welll, you could do just that but the quality won't be as good
15:12 < delinquentme> i think i asked adrian about that pump and hes not no plans
15:12 < diginet> the spinning process involves lowering the pH, which helps with making a better fiber
15:12 < delinquentme> schematics
15:13 < diginet> I have to do more research on the physiology though
15:13 < kanzure> delinquentme: then draw some up based on that picture
15:13 < ParahSailin> is spidroin phylogenetically related to collagen, elastin, or keratin
15:13 < diginet> but basically, it is possible to electrospin the proteins from solution with a rather simple apparatus
15:13 < ParahSailin> i always forget
15:14 < diginet> I think collagen
15:14 < diginet> don't quote me on that
15:14 < diginet> though
15:15 < ParahSailin> lowering the ph seems to be a condition favoring coacervation out of solution?
15:15 < diginet> probably
15:16 < diginet> I've read a few papers about dissolving natural spider silk, and reconstituting fibers with nearly identical properties, so I think the spinning is mostly a non-issue
15:17 < diginet> the genes are really odd though, in the black widow, neither MaPs1 or 2 has any introns, just 10k and 12k base pairs respectively.  However, with N Clavipes, there are introns, but that show odd repitive patterns and motifs
15:17 < diginet> *repetitive
15:18 < ParahSailin> no introns is a good thing for us though
15:18 < diginet> err, 10k/12k base pairs of exons
15:18 < diginet> it is
15:18 < ParahSailin> no diddling with rna extraction
15:18 < diginet> BUT, N Clavipes is the one we want, and it does have introns
15:18 < ParahSailin> can get the gene out of gdna
15:19 < diginet> the problem is, it seems as though they play a more integral role in its expression than other genes (just what I gleaned from a few papers I read)
15:20 < yashgaroth> wait we can just dissolve natural spidersilk?
15:20 < diginet> although, one paper did report consistent expression of 92-mer, 250 kDa proteins, so maybe it isn't so bad
15:20 < yashgaroth> yesss cash4cobwebs.com is unregistered
15:20 < diginet> yashgaroth, sure, and how are you going to get that?
15:20 < yashgaroth> pay off some spiders
15:20 < diginet> hah
15:20 < delinquentme> also what about the white washed pig organ scaffolds??? is there a market for that kind of thing?
15:20 < diginet> you can't farm them, andeven if you could the yield would be too low
15:21 < yashgaroth> there are some communal spiders, dunno about their silk strength though
15:21 < diginet> N Clavipes is the best AFAIK, among readily available species
15:22 < diginet> (Darwin's bark spider is better, but it was discovered last year, so it's not like we can get specimen)
15:23 < diginet> the nice thing is that the precursor proteins seem to be rather innocuous, so toxicity likely won't be as much of an issue
15:24 < diginet> some open questions though, are what kind of yield one could reasonably expect to get, and how "far" a given amount will go
15:26 < diginet> the best numbers I've seen on synthetic gene production are like 50% of total protein production in a given transfected cell, but I believe that was E.Coli, I don't know if one could really expect that for something more complex like insect cells, and for the much more complex proteins we're targetting
15:26 < ParahSailin> i cant really think of an actual useful use for spider silk that would warrant all the effort of producing it
15:26 < diginet> except that it's 5 times stronger than kevlar at a fraction of the weight
15:26 < skorket> ParahSailin, can't it stop bullets?
15:27 < ParahSailin> "stronger"
15:27 < diginet> in nearly every conceivable metric
15:27 < ParahSailin> well not elastic modulus
15:27 < ParahSailin> but you can stretch it longer before it breaks
15:28 < diginet> Well, one illustration I read in some paper was that a rope of natural parity spider silk 1 inch in diameter could stop a boeing 747
15:28 < diginet> now that's got to have use
15:28 < ParahSailin> silkworm silk has pretty good material properties
15:28 < katsmeow-afk> stop it from what in what conditions?
15:29 < diginet> IIRC, if it were tied to the back of it, and anchored, it could keep the plane from taking off
15:29 < diginet> the thing is, even if it were otherwise identical to kevlar, it has the huge advantage of not falling apart in the presence of UV
15:29 < ThomasEgi>  attack of the clones!....
15:29 < ThomasEgi> on an unrelated sidenote. cloning disk images.
15:30 < ParahSailin> i guess im having a hard time imagining when i would want extreme elongation before fracture at moderately high modulus
15:30 < diginet> ParahSailin, I mean, if I'm honest you're right, it's not like we need it, it's just something that interests me a lot, that's relatively within reach of attainability
15:31 < ParahSailin> and when that would warrant using what is effectively a more expensive but better form of bombyx silk
15:31 < ParahSailin> could this be used as a 3d printable material?
15:31 < diginet> bombyx silk degrades a lot easier than spider silk
15:32 < diginet> err, a lot more readily
15:32 < ParahSailin> bombyx silk is durable enough to make clothes
15:32 < ParahSailin> degrades under what conditions?
15:32 < diginet> it yellows when exposed to perspiration
15:33 < diginet> it degrades when exposed to sunlit over long periods of time
15:34 < diginet> it's significantly weakened by water, it can be attacked by insects
15:34 < delinquentme> i really like the company backblaze
15:34 < diginet> it also has really poor elasticity
15:50 < ParahSailin> a biomaterial that i think could be useful would be mother of pearl if you could hack that synthetic biologically
15:50 < diginet> why mother of pearl?
15:50 < ParahSailin> http://www.meyersgroup.ucsd.edu/papers/journals/Meyers%20289.pdf
15:52 < diginet>  well, I have a number of other projects that you might think more practical, unfortunately they all involve more investment of my non-existant money
15:53 < ParahSailin> like what?
15:53 < diginet> the main one is a working quantum computer.  a real one, not like those hacks at D-Wave
15:54 < diginet> my favoured type is the trapped ion quantum computer, but it also happens to be the most untenable, financially
15:55 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
15:56 < diginet> also, DIY diamond, which requires a complicated CVD reactor. I think that could be built, but it would require some really expensive parts, machining, and either a platinoid metal substrate, or a diamond seed crystal
15:56 < ParahSailin> actually i like that idea and have thought about how i could do that
15:56 < diginet> it's definitely doable
15:56 < diginet> I have the design finished
15:56 < ParahSailin> i dont even want to make money on that, i just want to collapse the diamond market
15:56 < diginet> all it takes is cash :(
15:56 < diginet> oh I know
15:57 < diginet> don't get me STARTED on that
15:57 < diginet> my family jokes that when one talks to me, it doesn't matter what we're talking about, it always ends up as diamonds
15:57 < diginet> incidentally, I don't want to get killed
15:57 < diginet> (seriously, there was a company called Apollo Diamond, the owner received death threats, it mysteriously dissappeared last year)
15:58 < ParahSailin> not sure i believe that, but it does cost quite a bit to make artificial diamonds
15:58 < diginet> believe what? that that guy got killed, or that I have a design I think would work
15:59 < diginet> I'm not sure I believe the latter, I think it would work, but one never knows until one tries
15:59 < diginet> the theory behind diamond CVD is mostly very well understood though
16:00 < ParahSailin> well anyone who disagrees with the legitimacy of patents could infringe upon those cvd patents and do it i guess
16:00 < ParahSailin> as i said, i dont want to make money, i just want to collapse that market
16:00 < ParahSailin> so i'd make an open source rig that anyone could build to make diamonds according to those patents
16:01 < diginet> ehh, I doubt anyone could build it
16:01 < diginet> it requires high vacuum
16:01 < ParahSailin> open source rig that anyone could order the parts for
16:02 < diginet> doesn't work that like unfortunately, these things only come pre-assembled
16:02 < diginet> I don't want to make money, on this, or the silk if I were to go through with it
16:03 < diginet> but the biggest problem is that you either have to have a seed crystal, or a very expensive, specific type of metal substrate, or you only get polycrystalline diamond, which isn't useful for much
16:03 < ParahSailin> seed crystal is easy
16:04 < diginet> well sure, I could go to a DeBeers and buy a big fat engagement ring
16:04 < diginet> again, cash :( unless you know of another source
16:05 < ParahSailin> well... tiny dust sized diamonds are really cheap
16:05 < ParahSailin> look into nacre
16:05 < ParahSailin> i think you will find it is an interesting material
16:05 < diginet> the seed crystal has to be a single crystal
16:05 < diginet> and a large one
16:06 < diginet> the only other option I thought of was this
16:06 < diginet> basically, pattern a silicon wafer with little slots that tetrahedron shaped crystals could fit into, if you got it just right, it *might* work
16:07 < diginet> though, that means we have to also figure out how to do ridiculously accurate nanolithography as well
16:07 < ThomasEgi> hm. polycristaline wavers sell for quite some money. given you polish them well, which is not easy
16:07 < diginet> and those wouldn't be of use anyhow
16:08 < ThomasEgi> a cm² of polycristaline diamond-window seels for over 100 euro.
16:08 < diginet> the only reliable source of good seed crystals are either natural diamonds or HPHT diamonds, the latter are not even that much cheaper than natural diamonds anyway
16:09 < ThomasEgi> does it really need to be monocristaline diamond?
16:09 < diginet> for it to do anything useful, yes
16:09 < ThomasEgi> like what?
16:09 < diginet> the best application of synthetic diamond would be for diamond based semiconductors, which, like silicon, have to be a single crystal
16:10 < ThomasEgi> polycristaline makes excellent heat-conductor.
16:10 < diginet> sure, but that's a comparitively boring application
16:10 < ThomasEgi> they also make excellent couple-windows for most laser technology as they are highly transparent
16:10 < diginet> yeah
16:10 < ThomasEgi> you can also make stuff totaly un-scratchable
16:11 < diginet> but I'm only really interested in diamond semiconductors
16:11 < diginet> though
16:11 < ThomasEgi> wouldnt polycristaline work there?
16:11 < diginet> not at all
16:11 < ThomasEgi> how about tricking vcd in growing monocristaline?
16:12 < diginet> I'm not sure what you mean
16:12 < ThomasEgi> cvd sory.
16:12 < diginet> oh okay
16:12 < ThomasEgi> btw. ever seen the process in real?
16:12 < diginet> there is a way to do that, you have to use a substrate which has a similar lattice constant to diamond.  You can use some platinoid metals, but that obviously doesn't help out with the price
16:12 < diginet> and no, I haven't sadly
16:13 < ThomasEgi> hm. i am one of the lucky guys who took a tour at the fraunhofer institute of applied rigid-body physics in freiburg
16:13 < diginet> sweet, can't say I'm not jealous :P
16:13 < ThomasEgi> they had several cvd chambers. metal easter-eggs as they called it
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16:14 < ThomasEgi> ranging between 5 and 15kW of microwave power.
16:14 < diginet> I'd love nothing more than to make CVD diamond, I spent like 4 months reading about it almost every waking hour of the day, and despite a desperate attempt to find some way to do it, I just don't think its possible
16:15 < ThomasEgi> shall i tell you how they do it?
16:15 < ThomasEgi> not much you need anyway.
16:15 < diginet> I know how they do it, microwave assisted plasma
16:15 < ThomasEgi> yeah
16:15 < kanzure> diginet: i think alonzenberg or w/e in #homecmos is doing home CVD?
16:16 < diginet> the plasma produces atomic hydrogen which etches away sp2 bonded carbon significantly faster than sp3, which creates a metastable environment at a comparitively lower pressure than normal
16:16 < ThomasEgi> guess the most difficult part of it is getting the elipsoid chamber.
16:16 < diginet> kanzure, ah thanks
16:16 < diginet> ThomasEgi, and getting the composition of the gasses right
16:16 < diginet> there are an overwhelmingly large amount of variables to consider
16:17 < ThomasEgi> hm. it didnt sound like much of a problem when they told us about the gasses
16:17 < ThomasEgi> they did have some gas mixture aparatus there. but they said it is for customer-demand only, to color it specially etc
16:17 < diginet> well, mind you, most CVD reactors are absurdly slow, like a few microns an hour
16:17 < diginet> if you put aside speed, it's easy
16:17 < ThomasEgi> yeah. and eat a LOT of electricity :D
16:18 < ThomasEgi> the folks at the lab even had i custom contract with the energy supplier :D
16:18 < diginet> exactly, faster=less power (lieky)
16:18 < diginet> *likely
16:18 < ThomasEgi> another thing is.. you end up with a pretty rough disk of diamond
16:18 < ThomasEgi> polycristaline.
16:18 < diginet> yeah, they don't come out very pretty
16:19 < ThomasEgi> and the only way to get it polished is by grinding it with more diamond-dust
16:19 < diginet> I've thought about trying to contact a university to see if I could get a sample, but I think that's doubtful
16:19 < ThomasEgi> and that takes another long time
16:19 < diginet> indeed
16:19 < ThomasEgi> diginet, i do have one :D
16:19 < ThomasEgi> altho i gave it away.
16:19 < diginet> like they're going to send that some nutty kid from the internet
16:19 < diginet> *to some
16:19 < ThomasEgi> i could probably retrieve it for a picture
16:19 < diginet> could you? I'd love to see that
16:20 < ThomasEgi> not sure. i can try.
16:20 < ThomasEgi> i cant send it to you, but i could try to get it for a pic
16:20 < ThomasEgi> no idea if the person still has it.
16:20 < diginet> oh of course
16:20 < diginet> just a pic
16:20 < diginet> thanks
16:20 < ThomasEgi> sry. i really cant :D
16:20 < ThomasEgi> it was laser-cut in a heart shape
16:21 < diginet> no problem
16:21 < diginet> aww, that's really cool
16:21 < ThomasEgi> and i cant possibly ask the girl i gave that diamond to to give it back :D
16:21 < diginet> oh I know where this is going: ex girlfriend?
16:21 < ThomasEgi> hm. not really ex-girlfriend. we never had a relationship that would make it an ex-
16:21 < ThomasEgi> it is more like childhood friends
16:21 < diginet> ahhh okay
16:25 < kanzure> title is a little hyped:
16:25 < kanzure> http://burtonator.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/the-motoactv-might-be-a-killer-biohacker-device-7/
16:26 < kanzure> so it can only track gps?
16:27 < kanzure> "tracking your heart rate*" "* Optional heart rate monitor required" wtf
16:30 < skorket> You're sure it's not an April fool's joke?
16:31 < kanzure> motorola doesn't usually participate in april fool's day?
16:31 < kanzure> has google bought them yet? i think it hasn't gone through yet.
16:32 < skorket> I hadn't heard that...google is buying motorola?  whoa
16:32 < kanzure> yeah it was a pretty big deal
16:32 < kanzure> http://investor.google.com/releases/2011/0815.html
16:33 < skorket> wow
16:34 < kanzure> yup.. it basically doubles google's employee count
16:34 < delinquentme> fair amount of anti-trust right?
16:34 < delinquentme> damn
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16:46 < kanzure> man is markdown annoying
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17:29 < yashgaroth> ey n_bentha you looking for me
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17:30 < n_bentha> oh hey!
17:30 < n_bentha> i tried that damn transformation once again
17:31 < n_bentha> so i'll find out tomorrow. i thought it was fine but that noob kept complaining about the bacteria 'not looking right' on the kanamycin plate
17:31 < yashgaroth> in what sense
17:31 < n_bentha> kept saying it was contamination?
17:31 < n_bentha> cuz there were small colonies and big colonies of the same color of stuff
17:32 < yashgaroth> that happens normally
17:32 < yashgaroth> anywhere from 0.5mm to 3mm across
17:32 < _Sketch_> fenn: Why no miniature cameras? Or just not IR?
17:34 < n_bentha> yeah. that's what i said, yashgaroth.
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17:36 < yashgaroth> well let me know how it looks tomorrow, p.s. I'm usually here roughly 2am-2pm pst, until I get another job
17:36 < yashgaroth> err 2pm-2am
17:37 < diginet> are there any other factors to consider, in maximizing gene expression, other than codon optimization and the appropriate promoter?
17:37 < n_bentha> heheh
17:38 < n_bentha> good luck
17:38 < n_bentha> diginet: yes!
17:38 < yashgaroth> feeding strategies is one, and of course optimizing recovery
17:39 < yashgaroth> oh and generating a stable cell line, if you're doing eukaryotic
17:39 < diginet> well, I know you have to consider culturing methods, but I'm only wondering about what to add or remove from the synthetic gene
17:39 < diginet> I'm using sp9
17:41 < diginet> like, what about enhancers?
17:41 < diginet> and, when the target is a eukaryote, is it better to remove the introns, leave them, or modify them in some way?
17:43 < yashgaroth> tbh I haven't done any work with insect cells, but just check the literature for what everyone's using as a strong promoter-enhancer
17:43 < kanzure> haha.. ##hplusroadmap office hours
17:43 < n_bentha> diginet: are you trying to express a gene, or are you trying to express enzymes to do a task?
17:44 < yashgaroth> for introns, if the source and host species have the same processing machinery, you might as well leave them in, unless they make the insert too big to manipulate
17:44 < n_bentha> yashgaroth, you could put down tutoring as one of your community service things on your resume?
17:44 < yashgaroth> hahaha
17:44 < diginet> no, just express a gene
17:44 < yashgaroth> he's doing spider silk proteins
17:45 < diginet> sorry for being so unknowledgeable, I'm working off of wikipedia and what I remember from high school biology :P
17:46 < n_bentha> LOL
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17:47 < n_bentha> you might want to put down a sequence in there for exocytosis?
17:47 < n_bentha> so that your proteins get excreted. amirite?
17:47 < diginet> what's exocytosis?
17:47 < diginet> I gather ti has something to do with being out of the cell
17:48 < yashgaroth> it probably already has one
17:48 < n_bentha> yashgaroth: how you know that!
17:48 < yashgaroth> well the protein is already secreted in the silk glands
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17:49 < n_bentha> i thought some of the transgeneic sprider silk bacteria from korea had only pieces of the spider silk gene?
17:49 < yashgaroth> and I'm hoping/presuming that insect secretory tags are the same between species
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17:49 < diginet> n_bentha, AFAIK no synthetic spider silk has been made with the entire gene
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17:50 < diginet> okay, here's another one: how does one try to prevent the gene from chopped up, I think I remember reading that highly repetitive genes tend to have sequences deleted from them in the process of incorporation
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17:51 < yashgaroth> ehh I don't think that'll be a problem outside of an evolutionary time scale
17:52 < n_bentha> eh. i'm sure they've done it, but just haevn't published the results
17:52 < diginet> well one of the papers I read mentioned that getting the gene into E Coli was difficult as it had the tendency to simply delete parts of it
17:52 < yashgaroth> that's because e.coli suck and are dumb
17:52 < audy> hhahaha
17:52 < n_bentha> put it into yeast
17:53 < diginet> I'm using insect cell lines, yeast has been tried, it doesn't work
17:54 < audy> diginet you're trying to make silk?
17:54 < diginet> audy, yeah
17:54 < n_bentha> yeah
17:54 < n_bentha> stupid yeast
17:54 < diginet> spider silk in particular
17:54 < n_bentha> what insects are you looking at?
17:54 < diginet> p9 cells
17:55 < ParahSailin> i can get my hands on sf9 cells
17:55 < diginet> err, sf9, sorry
17:55 < diginet> don't know where p9 came from
17:55 < diginet> and yeah, ParahSailin thanks gain
17:55 < diginet> *again
17:55 < diginet> I actually think this might be doable
17:56 < n_bentha> oh oh oh
17:56 < n_bentha> use http://www.invitrogen.com/1/1/7970-sf9-frozen-cells-graces-media-10e7-cells.html
17:56 < n_bentha> yes the sf9
17:56 < n_bentha> and u can do piggybac to put in your spidersilk gene!
17:56 < n_bentha> whoop whoop.
17:56 < n_bentha> they've used the piggybac system at notredam i think it were
17:56 < diginet> okay, I've heard of piggybac before, but what exactly is it?
17:56 < audy> "Goats were genetically modified to secrete silk proteins in their milk, which could then be purified." … freaky
17:56 < audy> spider goat!
17:57 < n_bentha> they use the baculovirus to insert genes
17:57 < n_bentha> from the webstie i posted "GIBCO? Sf9 cells, derived from Spodoptera frugiperda ovarian cells (Sf21 cells), are commonly used to isolate and propagate recombinant baculoviral stocks and to produce recombinant proteins."
17:58 < diginet> ohhh, I didn't realise baculovirus and piggybac were the same thing, okay, duh
17:58 < ParahSailin> you have access to the piggybac system?
17:58  * ParahSailin can probably get bac-to-bac
17:58 < diginet> I don't know if I do
17:58 < n_bentha> i could get it from my peeps working in my lab.
17:58 < diginet> no, I don't
17:58 < diginet> wow, you guys are awesome
17:58 < n_bentha> i don't know much about the piggybac system; however.
17:58 < diginet> thanks so much
17:58 < ParahSailin> n_bentha, you should do that in case i cant get bac-to-bac
17:59 < ParahSailin> i've worked with aav vectors
17:59 < diginet> there is one problem: I don't believe a full sequencing of the N Clavipes MaSp genes exist yet
18:00 < yashgaroth> man baculovirus has even more punny names than usual
18:00 < kanzure> diginet: gotta go PCR it out of the genome then
18:00 < diginet> yeah, but the bigger question is where I GET one
18:00 < kanzure> i thought you said the amazon?
18:00 < diginet> no, that's Darwin's Bark Spider
18:00 < kanzure> oh oh
18:01 < diginet> N Clavipes actually lives in Texas
18:01 < diginet> (among other places)
18:01 < diginet> but, I don't know where I would look
18:01 < kanzure> go find your nearest eight year old boy
18:01 < kanzure> give him a net and a picture of the thing
18:01 < diginet> haha
18:02 < diginet> I've seen some vague references to people catching them, even some person locally
18:02 < diginet> I don't know if they're around this time of the year though
18:03 < katsmeow-afk> N. clavipes in temperate North America has one generation per year under field conditions. Adult males are present from July to September, with most females maturing in August.
18:03 < diginet> damn, I'll have to wait :(
18:03 < n_bentha> diginet
18:04 < n_bentha> are you in houston?
18:04 < diginet> ?
18:04 < diginet> yes
18:04 < diginet> are you?
18:04 < n_bentha> then go to memorial park
18:04 < katsmeow-afk> The largest specimen ever recorded was a 2.7 inch female N. clavipes (which is now debated to have been a new yet undocumented subspecies) from Queensland, that was able to catch and feed on a small-sized finch.
18:04 < n_bentha> and go on the back trails and keep your eyes open.
18:04 < diginet> do you think there would be any out right now?
18:04 < n_bentha> it's kinda late at night
18:05 < n_bentha> i'd go in the morning
18:05 < diginet> no, not tonight, I mean this part of the year
18:05 < ParahSailin> n_bentha, you in houston?
18:05 < diginet> who ISN'T in Houston? lol
18:06 < katsmeow-afk> the spider, Nephila clavipes, generates at least six different silks from sets of different glands
18:06 < n_bentha> not at the moment, SaraPalin
18:06 < diginet> I'm interested in dragline/Major Ampullate
18:06 < n_bentha> "olden Orb Weaving Spiders are found in dry open forest and woodlands"
18:06 < diginet> hmm, sounds perfect
18:06 < diginet> I think I shall plan an expedition
18:07 < n_bentha> you might not find one. i don't remember seeing any...but then again i wasn't looking for them.
18:07 < diginet> fair enough
18:07 < n_bentha> but check around. maybe they'll pop up in the back-parts of the park
18:07 < katsmeow-afk> a few pics of the spider in discussion, in Houston : http://www.bugsinthenews.com/Texas%20Spiders/Golden-silk%20Spider%20(Nephila%20clavipes)%2012%20July%202007%20Sandra%20R%20Houston%20TX.htm
18:07 < diginet> I did find some vague reference in a paper from 20 years ago about someone buying a specimen, it appears the company is defunct though
18:08 < katsmeow-afk> the golden silk orbweaver forms localized concentrations, especially near swampland or forested coastal regions, and is absent over much of its geographic range where conditions are not so favorable for its development.  I have searched much of inland Texas for this species with very little success.
18:08 < ParahSailin> put out a bounty on bitmit
18:08 < n_bentha> hmmm
18:09 < katsmeow-afk> better pics of a N. clavipes taken in Houston : http://www.bugsinthenews.com/Texas%20Spiders/Golden%20Silk%20Spider%20(Nephila%20clavipes)%2015%20July%202007%20Sandra%20R%20Houston%20TX.htm
18:10 < n_bentha> rawr!
18:13 < katsmeow-afk> i don't see what the problem is with getting pics of the eyes, i always just went to the other side of the web and shot it 45 off the head end in supermacro
18:16 < diginet> specimencentral.com
18:16 < diginet> bingo!
18:17 < diginet> err nevermind
18:18 < diginet> thought it was something else
18:18 < diginet> where do researchers generally get specimen from? do they actually catch them themselves?
18:18 < kanzure> sometimes people call in to a university, and a researcher is interested enough to receive the specimen
18:19 < kanzure> then they publish some paper, and other colleagues chime in asking for some.
18:19 < n_bentha> they have a ton of them at notredam
18:19 < n_bentha> e
18:19 < kanzure> maybe there should be a site for rare sought-after specimens.. "$25/head per dragonfly (living)"
18:19 < diginet> I'm going to do a little more digging
18:20 < katsmeow-afk> or you find a 3ft dia clay-mold of an ancient tree in your mountainside, and call people, and none is interested
18:23 < kanzure> that's probably something more suitable for a letter
18:33 < katsmeow-afk> might be interesting spider read : http://www.pnas.org/content/103/25/9428.full
18:38 < diginet> http://www.tarantulaspiders.com/Other_Spiders_Price_List.php
18:38 < diginet> haha!
18:38 < diginet> only $8
18:38 < katsmeow-afk> cheaper than a trip to Brazil
18:40 < diginet> indeed
18:40 < n_bentha> hey now
18:41 < kanzure> one of my favorite spider articles is the one about portia: http://www.dichotomistic.com/mind_readings_spider%20minds.html
18:42 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_labiata
18:52  * katsmeow-afk growls at line like "Spiders have a narrow gut that can only cope with liquid food" , because the word "only" is in the wrong place, changing the sentence meaning
18:53 < katsmeow-afk> it should read "Spiders have a narrow gut that can cope with only liquid food"
18:53 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-163-157-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:53 < kanzure> no they mean the gut can't, for instance, dance with foods
18:54 < katsmeow-afk> oh
18:55 < katsmeow-afk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portia_labiata  would be about half the length if the repeated phrases were removed
18:55 < katsmeow-afk> "sticky gum on prey" and those lines around it are repeated
18:57 < katsmeow-afk> the experiment with getting across water was mentioned in detail 3x, i think
18:59 < audy> kanzure how do you have time for homework?
18:59 -!- Cheshire_Cat [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:05 < uniqanomaly_> anyone tried Uberman sleep schedule for longer time?
19:05 < bkero> doesn't work
19:06 < bkero> unsustainable
19:06 < uniqanomaly_> main developer of WordPress did it for year
19:06 < uniqanomaly_> supposedly most productive year in his life
19:07 < ybit> i wonder if it had anything to do with the sleep schedule
19:07 < kanzure> audy: oh there's a very simple answer.. i dropped out
19:07 < kanzure> bkero: try sleeping every 8 hours for 4 hours.
19:07 < audy> I did a polyphasicish thing for a while
19:08 < ParahSailin> mofafinil > amphetamines > sleep deprivation
19:08 < audy> meaning, I took naps in addition to sleeping a normal schedule
19:08 < audy> it was great
19:09 < bkero> polyphasic's haven't worked in my experience.  THe only one that does is a duophasic one, where you turn off all unnatural lights after dark, wake up at night for about 3 hours, do stuff in low light, then fall asleep again until morning
19:09 < n_bentha> IT"S THE DRUGS
19:09 < kanzure> with sleeping every 8 hours, you get.. 0-8 awake, 8-noon sleep, noon-8 awake, 8-12 sleep
19:11 < katsmeow-afk> i useto do 24 awake, 10 asleep for years, but it got me way out of sync
19:11 < uniqanomaly_> bkero: how long you did uberman?
19:11 < katsmeow-afk> could do 36 up , 12 down easily too
19:12 < bkero> uniqanomaly_: about seven months
19:12 < kanzure> i think statements like "uberman doesn't work" would be more useful with "and here's my SNPs: <link>" tacked on to the end of said statement
19:13 < uniqanomaly_> Matt Mullenweg, main WordPress, He recounts the experience:“It was probably the most productive year of my life. The first three to four weeks you’re a zombie, but once you settle into the schedule, you don’t even need an alarm to wake up after the naps. I probably wrote the majority of my code contributions for WordPress.org during that time. Then, I got a girlfriend. That was the end of Uberman, and the beginning of a significantly less produ
19:13 < uniqanomaly_> ctive— but more romantic—phase. It’s nice to be able to spend a normal night with someone instead of just sleeping 20 minutes.”
19:13 < kanzure> uniqanomaly_: that was possibly a very bad thing
19:13 < kanzure> wordpress is fucking awful, in the scheme of things..
19:13 < uniqanomaly_> gf was a bad thing, we need more guinea pigs without gf-s
19:13 < bkero> The ubermann sleep cycle is unsustainable for long-term usage.
19:14 < bkero> would be a more descriptive statement
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19:24 < delinquentme> WOM
19:25 < uniqanomaly_> kanzure, who cares about how awful it is, Automattic raised US$1.1m in 2006 and another US$29.5m in 2008, good enough to me
19:26 < uniqanomaly_> delinquentme RUN, RUN!!!1
19:34 < uniqanomaly_> :D
19:36 < kanzure> https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/NoisebridgeChinaTrip2
19:40 < delinquentme> >_<_>_<
19:48 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
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19:49 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
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19:51 < delinquentme> JayDugger, HOWDEH.
19:52 < JayDugger> Any advice on ordering from alibaba.com or from aliexpress.com?
19:52 < JayDugger> "Don't" makes an acceptable answer.
19:54 < nmz787> seems alright
19:54 < nmz787> i got a free sample once
19:54 < nmz787> haven't evaluated its quality yet though
19:54 < nmz787> i've heard another person got good deals on micropipettes
19:54 < nmz787> worked fine
19:55 < JayDugger> I just want a case for my phone. All available in USA suck.
19:55 < superkuh> The RTL-SDR people don't seem to be having any trouble with aliexpress.
19:56 < JayDugger> Good to hear, superkuh. Thank you.
19:57 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-98-219-188-137.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:58 < ParahSailin> try taobao?
19:58 < JayDugger> Have they got a site in English?
19:59 < JayDugger> And before I forget, thank you for the suggestion.
19:59 < ParahSailin> i read chinese, and google translate does decently
20:00 < JayDugger> Good! I'd hate to learn I confused quantities or items by having a shipping container of sardines delivered.
20:02 < katsmeow-afk> but your phone should fit the shipping container
20:03 < JayDugger> The container won't fit in my pocket.
20:03 < yashgaroth> I'm sure they sell pants too
20:03 < JayDugger> I'll need a much bigger waist and inseam, too.
20:03 < katsmeow-afk> you're changing too many variables of the problem at once, i give up
20:04 < JayDugger> Come on, all you had to do was point out they sell fatty foods and elevator shoes.
20:05 < katsmeow-afk> sure, but i have never been good with fashion, so buying new pants is really problematic for me
20:05 < katsmeow-afk> i quit quick
20:05 < JayDugger> Color, measurements, dress or not.
20:05 < JayDugger> Anyhow, thanks, and good night.
20:05 < katsmeow-afk> gnite
20:05 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-80-91.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:26 < katsmeow-afk> what pixel grid quantification, and what image depth on the picture, would be a test to compare a human recognising the picture contents (Eiffel Tower, elephant, kid in sandbox, etc) vs a machine recognising the contents?
20:26 < katsmeow-afk> 640x480 kinnect image?
20:26 < katsmeow-afk> whatever a 3mp camera provides?
20:26 < katsmeow-afk> some svga or hdmi image quality?
20:48 < kanzure> nmz787: #homecmos seems mostly active because of azonenberg
20:51 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:51 < kanzure> nmz787: ping
20:51 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:51 < nmz787> cool
20:52 < kanzure> nmz787: btw, i'm starting to organize some of the microfluidics notes here.. http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/microfluidics.txt
20:52 < kanzure> git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git
20:53 < kanzure> just need to start collecting our notes and BOMs..
20:54 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:59 < katsmeow-afk> http://techcrunch.com/2012/03/31/why-google-might-be-going-to-0/
21:21 < nmz787> katsmeow-afk pretty crazy
21:33 < jrayhawk> "I probably wrote the majority of my code contributions for WordPress.org during that time." wow, that's the most damning commentary on uberman's i've ever seen
21:34 < Vicarious> ohai
21:34 < nmz787> so i really hate needing sleep
21:34 < Vicarious> sleep is a waste of time
21:35 < nmz787> i also really hate U.S. education system... i've never excelled at school because I loathe the structure of it so much
21:35 < kanzure> jrayhawk: no kidding
21:35 < Vicarious> 6:34 a.m. here, I'm on my way from the Hackerspace to home, to get some rest
21:37 < skorket> how would you use microfluidics to sequence?
21:37 < kanzure> skorket: sanger sequencing, probably
21:43 < nmz787> most sequencing is microscale
21:43 < nmz787> whether the rest of the fluidics is micro or not
21:44 < nmz787> i.e. microwells with a CCD (micro light sensitive pixels) next to it for reading the state
21:44 < jrayhawk> nmz787: http://www.sudburyvalley.org/05_articles.html you might find democratic unschool propaganda heartwarming
21:45 < Vicarious> 'night
21:49 < _Sketch_> Woo hackerspaces.
21:49 < _Sketch_> I have no car and my local one is downtown. Much sad.
21:50 < kanzure> _Sketch_: read the earlier messages we left you re: your cameras
21:50 < katsmeow-afk> bike? bus? taxi? robot? scooter?
21:50 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-02.log
21:50 < _Sketch_> Yeah, I saw. :)
21:50 < kanzure> ok
21:50 < _Sketch_> 1h by bus.
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21:50 < katsmeow-afk> ouch
21:50 < nmz787> jrayhawk: i like that a lot... i guess that means i have to move to MA when i want to have kids
21:50 < _Sketch_> Yeah
21:50 < nmz787> or home school their asses
21:51 < kanzure> nmz787: waldorf/montessori is sometimes okay
21:51 < jrayhawk> Nah, there are lots of schools that follow the SV model; just look it up on google maps for your local area
21:51 < katsmeow-afk> i learned far more in libraries than in classes
21:52 < nmz787> what grades are offered?
21:52 < nmz787> k-12
21:52 < kanzure> they don't really teach you /things/ in waldorf/montessori
21:52 < nmz787> ?
21:52 < jrayhawk> waldorf and montessory get one half of the education equation correct
21:52 < jrayhawk> montessori
21:52 < kanzure> in fact, you sometimes wonder if they teach anything at all
21:52 < jrayhawk> i can spell i swear
21:52 < _Sketch_> i don't belieeeeve youuuuu
21:52 < _Sketch_> (okay i do)
21:53 < jrayhawk> which is to say montessori and waldorf are one hell of a lot better than standard schooling methods
21:54 < kanzure> you know, i haven't found a reasonable explanation of waldorf that i can show outsiders
21:54 < nmz787> SV wants ~$20/day
21:54 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldorf_education
21:55 < nmz787> not too bad considering cost of paying a babysitter
21:55 < jrayhawk> waldorf: magical gnomes fill your head with good feelings about learning
21:55 < jrayhawk> there, i explained it for you
21:56 < kanzure> "The educational philosophy's overarching goals are to provide young people the basis on which to develop into free, morally responsible[8][9] and integrated individuals,[2][10][11] and to help every child fulfill his or her unique destiny"
21:56 < kanzure> "The first Waldorf school was founded in 1919 to serve the children of employees at the Waldorf-Astoria cigarette factory in Stuttgart, Germany"
21:56 < kanzure> destiny: cigarette manufacturing
21:56 < katsmeow-afk> i dunno the school curriculum really matters,  i remember learning more in libraries than classes, in grade school, pre-highschool, and high school, because in a library there's no one to thump your ear, kick your chair, pull your hair, shove your books off the table, stick their wet finger into your ear, or describe their latest trip to the restroom
21:57 < katsmeow-afk> and the magazines aren't over 10 years out of date
21:57 < nmz787> ok not considering summer term ~$27/day
21:58 < jrayhawk> katsmeow-afk: you sound bitter! you would perhaps like http://johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm
21:58 < katsmeow-afk> i fought like heck to get let into summer school several years
21:58 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i should stop assuming people have read gatto
21:59 < katsmeow-afk> "only kids with bad grades goto summer school" "that can be arranged"
21:59 < kanzure> i always thought gatto was the default thing that anyone reads when they have a slightly negative opinion about the status of public education
21:59 < jrayhawk> a lot of people find bitterness distasteful
21:59 < nmz787> have no idea who/what is gatto
22:00 < nmz787> i know what is ghetto
22:00 < jrayhawk> actually i guess that's a reasonable position for a lot of people
22:01 < katsmeow-afk> regardless of my personal feeling about those activities, the fact remains that i learned more in libraries, self directed studies there, and the reasons listed are also why i was there
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22:02 < jrayhawk> people for whom agency has intellectual supremecy over ideas are extremely vulnerable to forceful rhetoric, so an instinctive distaste probably serves them well in life
22:02 < katsmeow-afk> getting the new issues ofScience News back in the early 1970's made my day, and usually the next day too
22:03 < nmz787> i am definitely capable of straight As, always have been... was in gifted classes from 3rd grade on....  but the ways school happens has always been wayyyyy tooo stressfull for me
22:04 < nmz787> so i basically just tried to opt out,  but since i was in public schools that was considered bad and underperforming
22:04 < jrayhawk> http://www.omgwallhack.org/toys/gatto.cgi there's also the random gatto generator here
22:04 < kanzure> i should have been less o a pussy and ran away from home, but i didn't consider this a legitimate option to get out of school
22:05 < jrayhawk> my biggest regret in life is not dropping out of school sooner
22:05 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, trying to make physics and chemistry more interesting by showing up stoned, no way, they made us sit in the back of class, where we watched everyone else play catchup to us
22:07 < katsmeow-afk> chemistry prof kept trying to trip me up, by interrupting my comic book reading to make some example of me, which only showed how slowly his class could go thru material
22:08 < katsmeow-afk> once i showed him up, he walked out of class and was gone the rest of the week
22:09  * katsmeow-afk sighs
22:09 < nmz787> i dropped out of H.S. because i hated it so much and finally couldnt take it.... when I finally felt ready for a 'long summer camp' I was able to get into a good university no-problem
22:09 < nmz787> been bitching about the uni since the first quarter
22:09 < katsmeow-afk> heh
22:09 < nmz787> now its my last quarter and I wonder if i'll pass
22:10 < nmz787> missed all my 8am classes last week
22:10 < nmz787> urgh
22:11 < katsmeow-afk> i made my mistake in pinning belief the CLEP tests and SAT tests made any difference at all, they didn't, all a waste of money
22:11 < nmz787> CLEP actually counts toward a degree though, right?
22:12 < katsmeow-afk> the area schools were so bad, my SAT score was the highest in the county for 4 years running, and i was so stoned i couldn't figure out where to sign my name on the test sheet
22:12 < katsmeow-afk> nmz787, so they say
22:13 < katsmeow-afk> i clepped ~60hrs , got all A's, and every school i asked about them, dismissed them
22:13 < katsmeow-afk> a full yr and a half of classes across the spectrum of what was offered
22:15 < katsmeow-afk> from Pe, art, math including calc and analytic geo, chem, history, music, i went wwwiiidddeee
22:15 < katsmeow-afk> wasted my time
22:16 < katsmeow-afk> quit school, 5 yrs later owned more property and was making more money than my parents, both of who went to college
22:16 < katsmeow-afk> m
22:17 < katsmeow-afk> today, even disabled with back injury, my property and house is paid off, even tho society believes i am worthless
22:17 < katsmeow-afk> hey, maybe i am bitter
22:18 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:18 < katsmeow-afk> :-/
22:19 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:19 < katsmeow-afk> wb
22:20 < nmz787> f society
22:20 < nmz787> i hope U.S. doesn't get as crowded as the rest of the world tho
22:20 < katsmeow-afk> pop density of the oceans is pretty low
22:21 < katsmeow-afk> find something out there that Thiel hasto buy from you
22:22 < nmz787> i like dumb ppl, as long as they're half sensible
22:22 < nmz787> but i think most ppl are just plain dumb
22:22 < kanzure> you guys are growing increasingly angsty
22:22 < nmz787> lol
22:22 < kanzure> take a chill pill
22:22 < nmz787> society made them illegal
22:24 < katsmeow-afk> i have found the more dumb they are, the more scarey aggressive they can be
22:24 < kanzure> maybe you're dumb.
22:24 < jrayhawk> this conversation is going places
22:24 < katsmeow-afk> obviously, i can't figure out how most of humanity works
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22:26 < nmz787> lol
22:26 < jrayhawk> what's that kanzure? i couldn't understand that mode change on account of how dumb it was!
22:27 < jrayhawk> I CAN TAKE YE
22:27 <@kanzure> i guess you could. i think you're an op.
22:27 < jrayhawk> BRING IT, GNOME-BOY
22:28 < jrayhawk> you are not bringing it at all and now i just look foolish
22:29 < katsmeow-afk> are you wanting to kickban me, or just upping the stakes, making authority issues more obvious, or looking for a way to tell me to leave, or be quiet?
22:29 < nmz787> dumb dumb da dumb dumb
22:29 < nmz787> op==original poster?
22:29 < nmz787> (i am dumb)
22:29 < yashgaroth> operator
22:30 < katsmeow-afk> in listservs, op = original poster
22:30 < nmz787> wats operator?
22:30 < nmz787> to make a collect call, dial up and try again
22:30 < nmz787> ... hang up
22:30 < yashgaroth> it adds an @ to your nick
22:30 < katsmeow-afk> permission in the ircd flags to set channel modes to controlt he channel
22:30 < yashgaroth> it's like giving your nick a hat!
22:30 < nmz787> oh
22:30 < nmz787> what kind of modes are there?
22:31 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o jrayhawk] by ChanServ
22:31  * katsmeow-afk was ircop on two networks many years ago
22:31 <@jrayhawk> woo now i have a yarmulke for my nick too
22:31 < katsmeow-afk> ban, quiet, akick, moderated, set other people's modes, etc
22:32 <@jrayhawk> wait does this mean we're going to duel
22:32 < yashgaroth> two ops enter, one op leaves
22:32 < nmz787> ahh
22:32 < nmz787> i see no hats or yarmulkes
22:32 < nmz787> maybe pidgin makes IRC lame
22:33 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: ON GUARD
22:33 <@jrayhawk> oh crap, now i actually have to look up IRC commands
22:33 < katsmeow-afk> heh
22:34 <@jrayhawk> and it's "en guard", DUMBY
22:34 < katsmeow-afk> do : /raw help
22:34 < katsmeow-afk> or : /cs help
22:34 < katsmeow-afk> or : /ns help
22:34 < yashgaroth> ooh can I have +v
22:34 < katsmeow-afk> or use google
22:34 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, mode # +v nick
22:34 <@jrayhawk> +v does not give you a hat, it gives you a cross to bear.
22:35 < katsmeow-afk> you sound bitter
22:35 < nmz787> so DIY pap smears?
22:35 <@jrayhawk> fukken crosses
22:36 < nmz787> (i'm not a girl, but do have a gf)
22:36 <@kanzure> your gf is going to eat your soul
22:36 < nmz787> (keep fighting if you like, and ignore me)
22:36 < delinquentme> lulz
22:36 < nmz787> hah, i didnt get into biotech for nothin
22:36 < delinquentme> kanz deze journals
22:36 <@kanzure> delinquentme: sup?
22:36 < nmz787> that shit is a lab protocol
22:37 < delinquentme> im gonna start to label these as website which have crapp indexes
22:37 <@kanzure> you gonna show me the code?
22:38 <@kanzure> i only saw http://pastie.org/3717567
22:40 <@jrayhawk> oh, "en garde"
22:40 <@jrayhawk> fffff
22:41 < delinquentme> yeah i was looking for a refactor on that
22:47 <@jrayhawk> http://timecube.com/ Gene Ray is also an invaluable resource in the subject areas of being educated stupid and having snot brains.
22:48 < katsmeow-afk> how many years was Banacek on tv?
22:48 <@jrayhawk> not enough
22:48 < katsmeow-afk> granted
22:49 < katsmeow-afk> only 2 yrs, and not even full years,,, hmm
22:57 < delinquentme> kanzure, i also dont think weve got a very comprehensive list
22:57 <@kanzure> feel free to add publishers to it
22:58 < delinquentme> so im at most 1/4th through the list
22:59 < nmz787> is timecube at all legit?
22:59 < nmz787> reads like the dr bronners soap bottle
22:59 <@kanzure> timecube is a famous site for how ridiculous it is
22:59 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timecube
23:00 <@kanzure> oh he has a fascination for marbles.. interesting. i should show him my marbles game.
23:01 <@kanzure> "In 1987, this became a controversial attempt to establish a million dollar marble tournament"
23:02 <@kanzure> haha. well whatever. timecube has a very special place in our hearts.
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23:07 <@kanzure> nmz787: you should consider going to class
23:08 < nmz787> i know
23:08 <@kanzure> alright. good night
23:08 < nmz787> night
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 03 00:00:19 2012