--- Log opened Wed Apr 04 00:00:01 2012 --- Day changed Wed Apr 04 2012 00:00 < katsmeow> you could still program, if there was a sim which converted a dna "program" into a simulated lifeform 00:00 < yashgaroth> nah I'll just learn python instead 00:01 < katsmeow> hmm, i know someone else playing with py, why the attraction to it? 00:01 < yashgaroth> it's vaguely similar to english, while also not being visual basic 00:01 < yashgaroth> I don't need to do mad sql injection exploits, so it's powerful enough for me 00:01 < katsmeow> there's many otehr basics besides "visual" basic 00:02 < yashgaroth> the big 3 for bio programming are python, java and perl 00:02 < yashgaroth> if I learned one thing about java it's slow as shit, and I know nothing about perl, so python is the logical choice 00:02 < katsmeow> established mass and momentum then? 00:03 < katsmeow> herd instinct 00:03 < yashgaroth> I will admit java is a close second since everyone learns it in undergrad, at least at my school 00:03 < katsmeow> lots of libraries 00:03 -!- _0bitcount [~0bitcount@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:03 < yashgaroth> 'import bioinformatics' 00:04 < katsmeow> when i was looking at py and php and ruby, php would run with no mods and no getting human permission on web servers, so i went with php 00:04 < katsmeow> perl i ingored 00:04 < katsmeow> ignored 00:05 < yashgaroth> also the only good molecular viewers are written in C, python and java 00:05 < yashgaroth> and fuuuuuck C 00:05 < katsmeow> today was the first day without the house being effectively underwater, and it was quite noticeably hotter upstairs 00:06 < yashgaroth> NWS shows an absurd weather pattern at your position 00:06 < katsmeow> i expected better from the R19 insulation up there, the water makes more of a difference 00:07 < katsmeow> weather? there's no weather here al day, or yesterday, that's the odd part lately 00:07 < katsmeow> http://classic.wunderground.com/radar/radblast.asp?ID=BMX 00:07 < katsmeow> nothing 00:08 < katsmeow> we should be having mild thuderstorms 00:08 < yashgaroth> what about all that red junk on http://radar.weather.gov/Conus/full_loop.php?hurl 00:08 < yashgaroth> it's coming straight for you! 00:08 < katsmeow> but it isn't 00:08 < yashgaroth> but then I'm speaking from the place that has the least weather in the US 00:09 < katsmeow> the mess over louisiana came down from Ark and Ok, and it's not headed here 00:09 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:09 < yashgaroth> well okay then 00:10 < katsmeow> tehre was a mess over Miss headed this way yesterday, but at 6:44pm it faded to nothing 00:10 < yashgaroth> I saw a cloud last month 00:11 < katsmeow> there wwas a mess on the 2nd, same thing, at 8:14pm it dissolved 00:11 * katsmeow logs weather radar (and other things) going back at least 10 years 00:12 < katsmeow> hourly 00:13 < katsmeow> on the 1st, there was a small storm that was headed tis way, it vanished at 5:14am 00:13 < jrayhawk> one time i saw the sun 00:15 -!- SDr [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:15 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:30 -!- katsmeow is now known as katsmeow-afk 00:46 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:02 < katsmeow-afk> two 18-wheel trailers in the air by tornado: http://raycomgroup.images.worldnow.com/images/17323176_BG2.jpg 01:23 < thylne> where 01:29 < diginet> yashgaroth, build a GUI interface in Visual Basic, see if you can get an IP address 01:30 < yashgaroth> :D 01:30 < diginet> oh good you get it, I was worried you were going to be all WTF 01:31 < diginet> LISP IS TEH BEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE OF ALL TIME 01:31 < diginet> inb4 smug lisp weenie 01:31 < yashgaroth> best scene in modern television, after the one where they hunt a suspect in second life 01:31 < diginet> wait 01:31 < diginet> wait 01:31 < diginet> wait 01:31 < diginet> hold on 01:31 < diginet> they HUNT A SUSPECT IN SECOND LIFE 01:31 < yashgaroth> I think he's a furry too, can't remember, but it would fit 01:31 < diginet> you know how I was going on earlier about the sanctity of human life? 01:32 < diginet> I RETRACT EVERYTHING 01:32 < yashgaroth> excellent 01:33 < diginet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ceaqtWhdnI&feature=related 01:34 < diginet> CLEARLY YOU JUST HAVE TO GET THE IPP4 PRIVATE NETWORK 01:35 < yashgaroth> my aunt unironically likes that show, and she heads the classics dept. at a top 5 university :/ 01:35 < diginet> oh dear lord 01:35 < diginet> classics professor? I almost went into classics 01:36 < diginet> which uni, if you don't mind me asking? 01:36 < yashgaroth> it's in the UC system, I'll say that much 01:36 < diginet> ah okay 01:36 < diginet> well, that's cool 01:37 < yashgaroth> she's good at classics I guess, just not tv 01:37 < diginet> the part about having a smart aunt, not that she likes that abortion of a television show 01:37 < yashgaroth> yeah 01:37 < diginet> NUMB3RS gave me PTSD, now whenever I hear "Golbach Conjecture" I have flashbacks, convulsions, and acute psychosis 01:37 < diginet> OH GOD NOT AGAIN 01:38 < yashgaroth> sue! 01:40 < diginet> "Breaking News: NUMB3TS indicted for supposed rape of mathematics. This case will set a major landmark in the recognition that concepts, methodologies, and axiomatic systems can and are raped" 01:41 < diginet> *can be 01:46 < Utopiah> not sure what that is but some here could be curious http://avaxhome.ws/software/software_type/graphics_cad_cam/cad_cam/AUTODESK.FACTORY.DESIGN.SUITE.ULTIMATE.2013.html 01:49 < Utopiah> (makes me wonder if it has a Kiva plugin) 01:56 < Utopiah> (also http://avaxhome.ws/software/software_type/graphics_cad_cam/cad_cam/AUTODESK.AUTOCAD.DESIGN.SUITE.ULTIMATE.2013.html but I guess more traditionnal) 02:00 -!- sdr__ [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:00 -!- sdr__ [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Client Quit] 02:26 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [] 02:28 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:44 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:17 -!- nathaniel_ [~nathaniel@reddit/operator/nathaniel] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:19 -!- lichen|2 [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:21 -!- Coornail [~Coornail@li66-97.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:21 -!- vrs_ [vrs@encephalon.lambda.name] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:22 -!- folmat_ [~root@69.158.27.91] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:24 -!- anelma [~elmom@hoas-fe3ddd00-25.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:27 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: folmat, elmom, Coornail_, nathaniel, vrs, lichen 03:57 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:10 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:10 -!- sdr__ [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:11 -!- sdr__ [SDr@cpc10-dals18-2-0-cust809.hari.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:38 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:42 -!- pes [~pes@88.103.220.182] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:45 < katsmeow-afk> Self-assembled photosystem-I biophotovoltaics on nanostructured TiO2 and ZnO 04:45 -!- pes [~pes@88.103.220.182] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:46 < katsmeow-afk> http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/120202/srep00234/full/srep00234.html 04:48 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:50 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:53 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [] 04:58 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:01 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@129.21.147.21] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:17 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@adsl-69-151-146-42.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:17 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@adsl-69-151-146-42.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:17 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:32 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:50 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@129.21.147.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:53 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@129.21.145.1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:34 < _Sketch_> For anyone attempting to use Ruby, I recommend using rvm. Distro packages for ruby suck. 07:34 < _Sketch_> Still might require grabbing packages though, or at least know how to get the build libraries on your own. 07:40 < kanzure> yep.. i use rvm 07:41 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 07:41 < kanzure> i should ban katsmeow for even mentioning php to yashgaroth 07:41 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:00 -!- _0bitcount [~0bitcount@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:19 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-163-157-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:19 < delinquentme> showar. 08:20 < kanzure> ? 08:30 < delinquentme> it really pisses me off that intra-email search on gmail sucks ass 08:30 < delinquentme> I was unable to locate oligonucleotide with oligo 08:30 < delinquentme> w t f 08:37 < delinquentme> kanzure, gnusha is what you use for keeping notes right? 08:37 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:39 -!- F71 [~Adium@safekick-americas-2.consolidated.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:48 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:01 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:06 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:21 < kanzure> delinquentme: sorta. i also keep a wiki on diyhpl.us/wiki 09:33 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:40 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@129.21.145.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:51 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:51 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:51 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:52 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-163-157-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:56 < kanzure> 2012-04-04T16:54:44+00:00 heroku[web.7]: Process running mem=614M(119.9%) 09:56 < kanzure> oh god we're all going to die 09:56 < kanzure> 2012-04-04T16:54:33+00:00 heroku[web.29]: Process running mem=617M(120.5% 09:56 < kanzure> yep definitely going to die 09:59 < Mokbortolan_> Well, it is 2012 10:00 < kanzure> Mokbortolan_: someone was in here complaining that piracetam prices are back up 10:00 < Mokbortolan_> and as we all know, the Mayans predicted the return of Jesus, the establishment of the single caliphate, and the end of the universe later in the year 10:01 < Mokbortolan_> *sigh* 10:01 * Mokbortolan_ checks. 10:01 < Mokbortolan_> nope, hard rhino's still at the same level 10:02 < Mokbortolan_> maybe they're referring to Cognitive Whatsits 10:02 < Mokbortolan_> they recently got some stock in 10:04 < kanzure> alright then 10:24 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:24 < kanzure> hi nsh 10:24 * nsh tips hat 10:24 < nsh> hi 10:32 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@216.183.186.16] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:40 < F71> Hello 10:40 < kanzure> F71: sup 10:40 < delinquentme> F71, i've never met a plane before 10:41 < delinquentme> cool to meet you. 10:41 < delinquentme> if its not too personal... when can i get in you 10:41 < delinquentme> questionmark 10:42 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:45 < F71> I am very confused right now 10:46 < F71> It will pass. 10:46 < delinquentme> lol 10:46 < delinquentme> sorry im not house broken 10:46 < delinquentme> SO whatre you working on? 10:48 < delinquentme> wish u guys were here atm 10:48 < delinquentme> its fucking lovely 10:49 < delinquentme> im out in the bamboo garden @ carnegie library =] 10:49 < delinquentme> so so fucking nice 10:50 < delinquentme> kanzure, we dont yet have a list of clients huh 10:50 < delinquentme> i mean other than "everyone with a lab" 10:51 -!- uniqanomaly [~ua@dynamic-87-105-21-62.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:51 < Mariu> LOL delinquentme "F71, i've never met a plane before" 10:51 * delinquentme humps uniqanomaly 10:51 < delinquentme> =] 10:51 < delinquentme> Mariu, they're cool man! 10:51 < Mariu> ^^ 10:51 < delinquentme> LISTEN IVE HAD SOME CAFFEINE TODAY 10:51 < delinquentme> IVE GOT IT UNDER CONTROL 10:52 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:52 < F71> I'll turn the Adium noises on so I'm not so touch-and-go 10:52 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:53 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:53 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53 < delinquentme> F71, airplane messenger protocol? 10:53 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:53 < delinquentme> show me your technologies! 10:53 < F71> Of interest to this group, I've built a TDCS machine and I'm trying to test it so I can be sure it works right. 10:53 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:54 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:54 < F71> I've built other goofy things with electrodes out of cheap crap before 10:54 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:54 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:54 < F71> This latest one is a battery, three electronic components, copper tape, and a shamwow 10:54 < Mokbortolan_> nice 10:54 < Mokbortolan_> what circuit did you build? 10:54 < delinquentme> TCDS are showing well recently 10:55 < Mokbortolan_> <-- was active in /r/tDCS until recently 10:55 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:55 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:55 < F71> It's just a constant current supply and some sponge electrodes 10:55 < F71> I was not aware of that reddit, sweet 10:56 < delinquentme> after the burial is pretty gnast kanzure does u lik? 10:56 < delinquentme> Mokbortolan_, yeah you told me about them 10:56 < Mokbortolan_> F71: yeah, but what sort of circuit? 10:57 < Mokbortolan_> which components, etc 10:57 < Mokbortolan_> it's sort of important 10:59 < F71> It's a Jfet, a potentiometer/resistor and an LED 10:59 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:59 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:59 < F71> It makes a very good, stable, adjustible current supply 10:59 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:59 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:00 < katsmeow-afk> most people use mosfets,, or still use bipolars 11:00 < F71> Jfets are ancient and cool 11:00 < katsmeow-afk> a good darlington bipolar beats a mosfet in my book if you can deal with an extra volt of headroom 11:01 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:01 < F71> that and I had one that I desoldered, I could have easily made it differently if I had different scrap 11:01 < katsmeow-afk> in fets, you haveto deal with the charge shoot-thru too 11:01 < katsmeow-afk> ditto mosfets 11:02 < katsmeow-afk> but a to-92 mosfet and bipolar cost about the same on ebay: $1 per 100 if you shop carefully 11:04 < F71> Jfets cost between a dime and a quarter without even buying bulk 11:04 < F71> that, and they're easy to find 11:04 < katsmeow-afk> ok, that beats a penny each, i spose 11:05 < F71> oh I thought you said a buck per one, hahaha 11:05 < F71> misread 11:17 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-58.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:17 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-58.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:17 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:23 -!- lichen|2 is now known as lichen 11:29 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:29 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:30 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:30 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:30 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:30 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:30 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:30 -!- ulises11 [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:33 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:34 -!- _sol_ [~Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:35 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.186.57] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:35 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:35 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:38 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/press_releases/linkeddata.html?WT.mc_id=TWT_npgnews 11:38 < kanzure> "Nature Publishing Group (NPG) today is pleased to join the linked data community by opening up access to its publication data via a linked data platform. NPG's Linked Data Platform is available at http://data.nature.com" 11:39 < kanzure> "The platform includes more than 20 million Resource Description Framework (RDF) statements, including primary metadata for more than 450,000 articles published by NPG since 1869. In this first release, the datasets include basic citation information (title, author, publication date, etc) as well as NPG specific ontologies. " 11:39 < kanzure> These datasets are being released under an open metadata license, Creative Commons Zero (CC0), which permits maximal use/re-use of this data. 11:39 < kanzure> hrm 11:39 < kanzure> http://data.nature.com/query 11:39 < kanzure> http://developers.nature.com/docs 11:40 < kanzure> bleh "Non-commercial API key holders are allowed 5,000 requests per 24-hour period" 11:41 < katsmeow-afk> beats google, iirc they limit to 3000/month 11:43 < superkuh> I just get 503, SERVICE_UNAVAILABLE. 11:43 < kanzure> this looks like a good query: describe 11:47 < kanzure> first person to replicate this entire dataset gets a cookie 11:49 < superkuh> Trying from my Comcast IP returns 503, from a canadian VPS everything works fine. 11:51 < lichen> so looks like google's actually making goggles 11:51 < lichen> hopefully they dont suck incredibly 11:58 < delinquentme> soy restless 12:01 < kanzure> superkuh: do you have a random canadian vps, or did you pick something bulletproof that you could share the name of? 12:02 < kanzure> lichen: http://fennetic.net/irc/cyberfenn/hplus_proposal/ 12:02 < kanzure> lichen: http://fennetic.net/irc/cyberfenn/layout.yaml 12:02 < lichen> heh, a pic from blame 12:03 < kanzure> keeping it real.. 12:03 < superkuh> I don't know about bulletproof, but I use BuyVM openvz. The primary quality being that it is extremely cheap. I just thought it odd that Comcast might (partially) be blocked. 12:03 < kanzure> it's also possible that they are blocking you explicitly 12:04 < kanzure> i am a little curious about how all the publishers aren't using the same blacklist or something.. surely i should be banned from everything by now? 12:04 < lichen> wearable computers are wonderfully cyberpunk but im starting to have questions about how well they'll be picked up by society 12:05 < lichen> but its possible smartphones were the transitional technology needed to get there 12:05 < kanzure> i don't think it matters if they are picked up by society or not? 12:05 < kanzure> doesn't it only matter if they provide function to you? 12:05 < lichen> not necessarily, but it would mean funding and development would go to it 12:05 < lichen> and more applications 12:05 < lichen> and infrastructure 12:06 < kanzure> the amount of funding required isn't that high 12:06 < kanzure> like, at most you just need me to fund it 12:06 < kanzure> or a couple of other people 12:06 < lichen> true 12:06 < kanzure> look at his pricesheet 12:06 < lichen> ideally what i want to be working on right now is this sort of thing 12:06 < lichen> probably more on the software end 12:08 < lichen> btw i dont know what kinds of jobs you had in mind when you asked for my resume but if you want to chat about that i've got about half an hour before i leave 12:08 < kanzure> i'm not ready to talk with you about that 12:09 < lichen> alright 12:09 < lichen> i was just wondering if it was something youre doing or if you meant to hand it off 12:09 < kanzure> a little of both 12:09 < lichen> k 12:10 < lichen> well stay in touch then 12:11 < kanzure> oh i guess i should clarify that i am not ready to talk with you about anything that i might be doing 12:12 < kanzure> but the other stuff is just people i know who are hiring programmers for web app and mobile app development 12:12 < lichen> ok 12:12 < lichen> its looking like everything is pointing me to do freelance app development 12:12 < lichen> youre the second person ive run into online who has mentioned hooking me up with people needing that 12:13 < kanzure> that's the vast majority of my paying work 12:13 < kanzure> er, i mean, that's the vast majority of what i get paid to do 12:13 < lichen> yeah 12:14 < lichen> i guess ill go grab a smartphone this weekend or so 12:14 < lichen> look over the APIs 12:14 < lichen> everyone wants iphone development so maybe grab a used one somewhere 12:14 < kanzure> do you have osx? 12:14 < lichen> ive been using this same shitty flip phone for like 4 years now 12:14 < lichen> no 12:14 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:14 < kanzure> iphone development is locked into apple 12:14 < lichen> but i can run it in virtual if needed 12:14 < kanzure> so you will have to buy an apple computer or find a working virtual machine 12:14 < lichen> thats stupid 12:15 < kanzure> yes it's very stupid 12:15 < kanzure> i suggest android 12:15 < lichen> yeah 12:15 < lichen> i prefer android 12:15 < lichen> but like i said, most people want ios apps 12:15 < kanzure> ehh 12:15 < kanzure> most of the projects i've done have been both 12:18 < lichen> kind of what i meant 12:19 < lichen> they want full platform coverage 12:19 < F71> Oh, wearable computing 12:20 < F71> I just read through your stuff you linked, Fenn 12:20 < F71> I've got a little project I'm working on with my roomate, we're trying to make an HMD with full field of view 12:21 < lichen> nice 12:21 < F71> I've got the optics down, aspheric lenses 12:21 < F71> I can focus on my smartphone, see either edge by looking to the left and right 12:22 < ThomasEgi> aspheric smartphone lens? 12:22 < F71> I can focus on most flat things about an inch and a half from the surface of my eye 12:22 < F71> I use the lens to adjust my eye focus really close 12:22 < ThomasEgi> ah. ok. 12:22 < F71> the camcorder function on my smartphone just provides me with a video feed to test with 12:22 < lichen> so what, you have the smartphone right against your face with a lens inbetween? 12:23 < F71> yeah 12:23 < F71> Ideally, two 12:23 < lichen> hmm 12:23 < F71> since one eye can see all of it 12:23 < lichen> reminds me of uh 12:23 < lichen> might take me a while to find a pic 12:23 < lichen> but the goggles in ghost in the shell 12:23 < F71> it's easier than one screen with weird dimensions, and lets me work around the nose 12:23 < lichen> http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs5/i/2004/299/1/b/Motoko_2nd_Closeup_by_arcipello.jpg 12:24 < F71> That'd be quite nice 12:24 < lichen> sounds like the end result of what youre doing is quite similar 12:24 < F71> I've got a galaxy S2, so it's fairly large and high resolution as smartphones go 12:24 < F71> it's still kind of grainy, like peering through a veil 12:25 < lichen> yeah 12:25 < lichen> id imagine it always would be until you get to massive resolutions 12:25 < F71> It's good enough for the present 12:25 < lichen> yeah 12:25 < F71> I can get a line on replacement 'retina' iphone screens for fifteen bucks 12:26 < F71> but I can find no information on driving them and the little connector is a nightmare 12:26 < lichen> that would make constructing these much easier 12:26 < lichen> or cheaper, rather 12:26 < lichen> rather than trying to sync two phones 12:26 < F71> For twenty, I can get the much lower resolution PSP screens that hackers have been messing with for half a decade 12:26 < lichen> yeah 12:26 < lichen> and you dont need touch 12:27 < F71> Current design philosophy is two controllers being driven by high-powered ARM 12:27 < lichen> would you run android on it or hook it into a phone or what 12:27 < F71> controllers cost like five bucks, and another eight for an ARM9 or something 12:28 < lichen> not bad 12:28 < delinquentme> <3 GITS 12:28 < lichen> and you could print or mold a shell for it all really cheaply 12:28 < lichen> i have kusanagi's hair, lol 12:28 < kanzure> delinquentme: we need something for after GITS... 12:28 < delinquentme> true. 12:28 < kanzure> like i said, an anime based off of ##hplusroadmap 12:28 < delinquentme> true true 12:28 < delinquentme> haha 12:28 < delinquentme> we're out there :D 12:29 < lichen> write a manga 12:29 < lichen> graphic novel 12:29 < lichen> whatever 12:29 < F71> I've got a laser cutter and a 3D printer at my hackspace. There's a decent mill for injection If I decide to get ambitious 12:29 < kanzure> yes but what would the story be? "And then the character became a transhuman, and lived happily ever after" 12:29 < lichen> thats not very creative kanzure 12:29 < delinquentme> F71, whut you charge for laser cutting acrylic? 12:29 < delinquentme> neds up to 10mm 12:29 < kanzure> lichen: agreed! 12:30 < F71> Members get a free hour of laser time per week 12:30 < F71> membership is 25/month 12:30 < delinquentme> i need some REALLY simple cut parts 12:30 < F71> We haven't had anyone need more time than that yet. 12:30 < delinquentme> EFF that dude on youtube hasnt gotten back to me 12:30 < F71> Our laser admin has SO-SAD right now so he's incommunicado 12:31 < F71> What do you need? 12:31 < lichen> fucking intel hasnt gotten back to me yet about a job 12:31 < lichen> im on the verge of making the plunge, quitting my job, and doing app development 12:31 < kanzure> wait wait, no.. 12:31 < kanzure> first, most people do not get back to you if you do not make it 12:31 < kanzure> you should generally expect that to um never happen 12:31 < lichen> yeah im aware 12:31 < kanzure> second! don't quit and then go into app development. 12:31 < lichen> i emailed the recruiter and asked if she heard anything 12:31 < kanzure> get a contract first, then quit. 12:31 < lichen> and she hasnt returned my email 12:32 < lichen> i have a contact 12:32 < lichen> but he seems shaky so far 12:32 < kanzure> has he paid you yet? 12:32 < nmz787> kanzure: where is this now? http://heybryan.org/books/papers/New%20biotechnological%20applications%20of%20coconuts.pdf 12:32 < lichen> id probably have one or two web design jobs from him 12:32 < lichen> i havent done anything for him yet 12:32 < delinquentme> F71, they're gonna be clear acrylic nothing more than like 24"^2 12:32 < kanzure> nmz787: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/New%20biotechnological%20applications%20of%20coconuts.pdf 12:32 < kanzure> lichen: you should generally ask for money upfront (call it a retainer) 12:32 < lichen> i would have had a job already if the client didnt fucking flake out 12:33 < F71> @kanzure the link in the box is dead 12:33 < kanzure> the box? 12:33 < nmz787> txh 12:33 < nmz787> thx 12:33 < F71> oh, just the link 12:33 < nmz787> wow 12:34 < nmz787> this is my new fav paper 12:34 < nmz787> hah 12:34 < nmz787> in-vitro transcription and translation IN A COCONUT??? 12:34 < F71> It's alive now. 12:34 < F71> Schrodinger's link 12:34 < nmz787> sounds a little far fetched actually... i will try it :D 12:34 < kanzure> nmz787: oh man if this is your new favorite, then you might like this one.. 12:34 < nmz787> hmm, brazil 12:35 < kanzure> oh damn.. i've lost it 12:35 < kanzure> there used to be one about using the breast as a bioreactor 12:35 -!- nicotina_b [817626ed@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.118.38.237] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:35 < nicotina_b> hello! 12:35 < kanzure> hi nicotina_b 12:35 < nicotina_b> heybryan! 12:36 < nmz787> hah 12:36 < F71> Gilligan, do you have any idea how hard it was to build a bioreactor from a coconut? 12:36 < nicotina_b> hey do u have the logs for the chat from yesterday? i posted that paper about l-theanine, bu ti cant find it no w:( 12:36 < nmz787> :D 12:36 < nicotina_b> coconuts rock! 12:36 < kanzure> nicotina_b: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-03.log 12:36 < nicotina_b> coconut crabs are bad ass too 12:36 < nmz787> F71: i came to school so i could be exactly that gilligan 12:37 < nicotina_b> thank you kanzure :) 12:37 -!- HIGHsemaj [4b36d346@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.54.211.70] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:37 < kanzure> hello HIGHsemaj 12:38 < HIGHsemaj> Helllooooo 12:38 < HIGHsemaj> ^.^ 12:38 < nicotina_b> heya 12:38 < HIGHsemaj> What is this IRC channel? 12:38 < lichen> ##hplusroadmap 12:38 < kanzure> it's a bridge into the future 12:38 < HIGHsemaj> help us road map? 12:38 < nmz787> kanzure: dangit, my gf is in india... she has coconut trees in her back yard :/ 12:38 < nmz787> I am not there... 12:38 < nmz787> hah 12:38 * delinquentme seconds what kanzure said 12:38 < HIGHsemaj> kanzure How so? 12:38 < lichen> hplus = H+ = humanity plus = transhumanism 12:39 < kanzure> human enhancement technology roadmap 12:39 < HIGHsemaj> I might be to stoned for this 12:39 < nmz787> next time I go to india I'll pack a microscope and some GFP plasmids 12:39 < nmz787> and I'll be a coco-nut 12:39 < delinquentme> OOC has anyone ever gotten official college transcripts without having paid off all school loans? 12:39 < nicotina_b> don't forget to drop acid 12:40 < HIGHsemaj> Ehhh 12:40 < HIGHsemaj> I'd rather take some mushrooms 12:40 < nicotina_b> delinquentme: you should be able to 12:40 < nicotina_b> especially for gradschool and such 12:40 < nmz787> delinquentme: i think i have, for a summer internship 12:40 < HIGHsemaj> So this is like some Cyborg shit? 12:40 < delinquentme> yeah grad school is what im interested in 12:40 < kanzure> HIGHsemaj: yes.. something like that 12:40 < HIGHsemaj> Nanotechnology and what not? 12:40 < lichen> lol 12:41 < delinquentme> HIGHsemaj, not yet but we have some people who are working towards that 12:41 < lichen> CYBORGS N' SHIT 12:41 < delinquentme> we've got people scraping the surface of human augmentation 12:41 < HIGHsemaj> Sounds badass! 12:41 < HIGHsemaj> Ill stick around :) 12:41 < delinquentme> I've got an implanted LED tattoo 12:41 < kanzure> HIGHsemaj: sure.. we have some nanotech experts. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ 12:41 < delinquentme> change it whenever you want 12:41 < delinquentme> jk jk BRB! 12:43 < HIGHsemaj> Woah 12:44 < HIGHsemaj> This is madness 12:45 < nicotina_b> delinquentme: do you have pics of your led tatoo? also have you tried contacting the school and asking for your transcripts to be sent and explaining that you're trying to go to gradschool? 12:45 < nmz787> i think he was joking 12:45 < HIGHsemaj> This is all very COnfusing and it seems as tho i have stumbled into something much bigger than my self! you all have fun! immah go try and figure out how to lucid dream :)! 12:45 < delinquentme> nicotina_b, yeah was jking :D 12:46 < delinquentme> its in collections haha 12:46 < nicotina_b> awh... 12:46 < kanzure> lucid dreaming is pretty neat.. where did that guy go who was doing the "Use a computer while you are lucid dreaming" project? 12:46 < lichen> lucid dreaming is fun 12:46 < delinquentme> basically i've decided that its not worth shit 12:46 < delinquentme> so i really dont care to pay it off 12:46 < delinquentme> let them eat the debt 12:46 < delinquentme> they're financing parties and sex IMO 12:46 < lichen> ##neuroscience is full of people who can tell you how to work on that 12:46 < lichen> choline and melatonin supplements are helpful 12:46 < kanzure> lichen: were you around for that project? 12:47 < lichen> nah 12:47 < kanzure> someone was watching eyeballs while sleeping 12:47 < kanzure> and then using horizontal eye movements to control a computer 12:47 < lichen> lol 12:47 < kanzure> because it turns out that when you do a HEM in your dream you make a physical HEM 12:47 < lichen> interesting 12:48 < nicotina_b> is that supposed to be a way to be more productive during sleep, or just to communicate w/ the outside world? 12:48 < lichen> just research probably 12:48 < kanzure> no not research 12:48 < lichen> oh? 12:48 < kanzure> you can to some extent get signals into a dream 12:48 < kanzure> like through the eyelids or auditory signals 12:49 < kanzure> so if you can get input.. and you can get output.. you can really enhance the dreaming experience 12:49 < kanzure> i've always wondered about brainport and lucid dreaming.. would you be able to show a virtual world in your dream? 12:49 < F71> That's intriguing 12:49 < lichen> or record the virtual world you see in your dream? 12:49 < kanzure> brainport is that tongue electrode array thing 12:49 < delinquentme> so like we've got this huge list of papers ... http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ 12:49 < HIGHsemaj> Brb sorry 12:50 < delinquentme> and what of that has come to commercial realization? 12:50 < lichen> alright, later 12:50 < lichen> off to work 12:50 < nicotina_b> didn't they already visualize brain images w/ computers and schit? 12:50 < kanzure> delinquentme: robert freitas and the molecular machinery institute are still going at it 12:50 < delinquentme> like do our best and brightest ... write a fancy thesis defend it 12:50 < kanzure> nicotina_b: yes but nobody has proven that there is any "imagery" that exists during dreams 12:50 < delinquentme> then go have kids and work at BASF? 12:50 < delinquentme> game over? 12:50 < kanzure> delinquentme: well.. nanorex 12:51 < kanzure> they wrote nanoengineer but abandoned it after a few years 12:51 < nicotina_b> fuck my school. they aren't letting me connect to science direct on this computer 12:51 < kanzure> so i recovered it 12:51 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer 12:51 < nmz787> dna origami is weird 12:51 < nmz787> it makes you realize how flexible DNA is 12:52 < nmz787> bases and sugars really have a lot of kink freedom 12:52 < nmz787> all those single bonds 12:52 < kanzure> F71: did you see that latest kickstarter campaign for someone making an LED flasher to notify you when you're dreaming? 12:52 < delinquentme> yeah 12:52 < delinquentme> they've got cool star scape printed foamy face pieces 12:52 < delinquentme> so kew 12:53 < nmz787> kanzure: why get a flasher, you won't see it if you're asleep, right? 12:53 < nmz787> or you're saying thats the kind of signal that could get through? 12:53 < nmz787> what if you use it a lot, but then forget if you're in reality or a dream... and accidentally kill yourself 12:54 < delinquentme> lolol 12:54 < delinquentme> jump infront of a car .. LIGHTS OMG i can fly 12:54 < delinquentme> nope 12:54 < delinquentme> jk 12:54 < kanzure> nmz787: yes you do see it in your sleep 12:57 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:58 < delinquentme> girl i knew from HS posts a baby picture 12:59 < delinquentme> everyones all CONGRATS CONGRATS 12:59 < delinquentme> im all 12:59 < delinquentme> HOLY SHIT is that ultrasound?? look @ that resolution! 12:59 < kanzure> damn i couldn't do that.. i don't have my baby pics 12:59 < delinquentme> (congratulations) 12:59 < nicotina_b> i wish i had baby pics 13:00 < delinquentme> kanzure, you can see me in my awesome bright orange overalls 13:00 < delinquentme> :D 13:00 < delinquentme> LOL funny personal note: 13:00 < nicotina_b> kekeke, fucking university blocks sciencedirect.com 13:00 < delinquentme> i told my parents I'd have no problems finding a mate bc i was brightly colored 13:00 < delinquentme> >_< 13:00 < nicotina_b> but those bastards don't block dragonproxy~! 13:00 < nicotina_b> woooo 13:00 < delinquentme> nicotina_b, <<< nice nice 13:00 < kanzure> nicotina_b: do you need something from sciencedirect? 13:00 < nicotina_b> how old were you when u said that, delinquentme? 13:00 < delinquentme> what are you after? PS can you get me a paper? 13:01 < delinquentme> nicotina_b, like 8 hahah 13:01 < nicotina_b> yeah i got it already. idk why they wouldn't let me access the website. stupid shit. 13:01 < nicotina_b> what paper u wanT? 13:02 < nicotina_b> oh shit, this paper is freely avaliable, so i couldn't get it. i can get you one when i'm on a different computer tho 13:02 < nicotina_b> what u want 13:02 < kanzure> huh? i thought you just said you can't get papers 13:02 < kanzure> oh you already got it because it's free 13:02 < kanzure> ok 13:02 < delinquentme> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0142961212000294 13:02 < nicotina_b> i usually can, but i got that one cuz it's free and used a proxy. 13:02 < nicotina_b> if i'm on a different computer that's not retarded, then yes i can hook u up 13:03 < delinquentme> NM! 13:03 < delinquentme> got it! 13:03 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:03 < F71> @ kanzure I've seen the blinkenlight mask 13:03 < kanzure> "A rat decellularized small bowel scaffold that preserves villus-crypt architecture for intestinal regeneration" 13:03 < nicotina_b> "Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage" 13:03 < kanzure> F71: no i mean remeeeeemememe 13:03 < kanzure> F71: 13:03 < kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1047510073/remee-the-rem-enhancing-lucid-dreaming-mask/ 13:04 < nicotina_b> ask me some other day and i'll get u it. 13:05 -!- HIGHsemaj [4b36d346@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.54.211.70] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 13:05 < F71> @ Delinquentme Last time I saw an ultrasound on facebook, I remember thinking "tumors might be getting smarter" 13:06 < nsh> i remember these lucid-dreaming masks coming out in the mid 90's 13:06 < nsh> surely by now we can say with some confidence whether they're crap or not 13:06 < kanzure> this one seems still a bit expensive for what it is ($80 for some LEDs and a chip??) 13:06 < delinquentme> lolol 13:06 < delinquentme> like .. i think i just dont fit in with everyone 13:06 < delinquentme> kanzure, correct .. but you're also kickstartering 13:07 < delinquentme> kanzure, nmz787 how many total fluids are needed for the oligo chip? 13:07 < nsh> i suspect that for most of the effect you get from these masks, you may as well be wearing a banana skin over your eyes 13:07 < delinquentme> nsh, i dont think so 13:07 < nsh> well, a lot of it is simply learning to associate going to sleep and waking up with mindfulness of the dream state 13:07 < kanzure> delinquentme: sorry bro, i don't have access to that paper 13:07 * nicotina_b is going to eat. ttyl. 13:08 -!- nicotina_b [817626ed@gateway/web/freenode/ip.129.118.38.237] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 13:08 < delinquentme> kanzure, np np 13:08 -!- HIGHsemaj [4b36d346@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.54.211.70] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:08 < delinquentme> i got a similar one 13:08 < nsh> the lights will obviously help you 'get lucid' but perhaps not that much more than a habit of reality checking 13:08 < delinquentme> just needed the formulas for the detergents 13:08 < HIGHsemaj> How effective is the jounral keeping? 13:09 < HIGHsemaj> I have been reading this http://www.realityshifter.com/2007/mastering-the-art-of-lucid-dreaming-full-series/ 13:10 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-58-8-213-19.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:11 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-58-8-213-19.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:11 < HIGHsemaj> For the daily reality check i wrote on my Lighter hah, thought that would be a good one ^.^ 13:13 < F71> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja103525v 13:13 < kanzure> "1,1′-Azobis-1,2,3-triazole: A High-Nitrogen Compound with Stable N8 Structure and Photochromism" 13:13 < F71> @kanzure, think that microfluidics could make these from some kind of atmospheric chemistry? 13:13 < kanzure> er anything's possible with enough effort? 13:15 < F71> I'm just interested in seeing something useful and horrifically endo/exothermic being synthesized by automated small-scale reactions 13:16 < HIGHsemaj> O.o 13:18 -!- HIGHsemaj [4b36d346@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.54.211.70] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 13:21 < kanzure> F71: what do you think about the dna synthesis project 13:22 < F71> reading it 13:24 < delinquentme> kanzure, where do we get the initial 9-mer DNA strand? 13:24 < delinquentme> source that? build a bunch and chop them? 13:24 < delinquentme> and how do we attach to the microbead 13:27 < kanzure> microbead attachment is a known protocol.. check protocol-online.org for one 13:27 < kanzure> initial 9mers or w/e will come from a synthesis company 13:27 < delinquentme> and these are being built up a amino acid at a time ... so we need an individual pump for every amino reservoir 13:28 < kanzure> possibly just a drip pump.. and then block the channel, unblock to release some chemicals? not sure 13:28 < delinquentme> i guess we could flush it 13:28 < delinquentme> ... how clean can you get a tube with a water flush? 13:28 < kanzure> in dna synthesis chemistries you usually flush with a cleansing chemical 13:28 < delinquentme> gotya 13:30 < nmz787> nucleic acid 13:30 < nmz787> not amino acid 13:30 < kanzure> hah i didn't even catch that 13:30 < nmz787> you don't need to order from a synth company if we are the synth company 13:30 < nmz787> :P 13:31 < delinquentme> yeah so we make a bunch of the templates 13:31 < delinquentme> and then reuse them 13:31 < delinquentme> are the beads attached at the beginning of each synthesis 13:31 < delinquentme> or do you do a bunch then pick out 1 to run with 13:32 < delinquentme> also .. it looks like were adding 6 mer nucleic acid sequences 13:32 < delinquentme> so were going to need those bottled 13:32 < delinquentme> ja? 13:33 < kanzure> library items are attached to beads. you take them out and "PCR" the strands off of the beads, then flush this to your reaction chamber 13:33 < nmz787> that is going to change 13:33 < kanzure> what? 13:33 < nmz787> (what delinwuent said, not kanzure) 13:33 < delinquentme> kanzure, is PCR the right operation? 13:33 < delinquentme> i mean you're not replicating .. just chopping right? 13:33 < nmz787> the 6mer addition strategy isn't perfect... only half of it is 13:34 < kanzure> no you are definitely replicating from the library item.. you don't want to use your library supply because then you're boned 13:34 < nmz787> show him the nicking enzyme diagram 13:34 < nmz787> thats not in the ppt 13:34 < delinquentme> nmz787, but we need that staggered effect in order to attach the subsequent nucleic acid 6-mer no? 13:34 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/nicking-library-method.jpg 13:34 < nmz787> thats the idea, but there is research that it needs sufficient 3' DNA for the ligase to sit down 13:35 < nmz787> so I have to rethink things 13:35 < nmz787> originally i wasn't thinking to ligate the oligos at all, rather hybridize and use the oligos as the PCR template for a few nt 13:36 < nmz787> so we may have to revert to that in light of the recent findings 13:36 < nmz787> but that could be even better 13:36 < nmz787> maybe 13:36 < delinquentme> I dont see whats being synthesized between the operation @ 3 oclock and 8 oclock 13:36 < nmz787> i dunno, i don't think its a big problem, i just need to sit down and think about it long and hard 13:37 < delinquentme> does the nicking enzyme leave new code? 13:37 < nmz787> DNA 13:37 < nmz787> there are two enzymes 13:37 < nmz787> polymerase, and nicking nuclease 13:37 -!- charlieschwabach [~charliesc@c-24-118-140-185.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:37 < nmz787> polymerase synthesizers the compliment of the red 13:37 < nmz787> producing the green 13:37 < nmz787> then the nicking enzyme cleaves the green which floats into solution 13:38 < nmz787> and the polymerase goes to work again on the red, synthesizing a green 13:38 < nmz787> repeat... 13:38 < nmz787> the oligo is so short, temperature likely can stay constant 13:38 < delinquentme> OHHH this isnt for snythesis .. . this is for production of numerous sequences that we're using as raw inputs FOR the synthesis 13:38 < nmz787> lowering the temp if you want to stop the reaction 13:38 < nmz787> well, its biosynthesis 13:39 < nmz787> :/ 13:39 < delinquentme> ooc am i the EE in this operation? 13:39 < nmz787> are you? 13:39 < nmz787> an ee? 13:39 < delinquentme> im not hahah 13:39 < nmz787> hmm 13:39 < nmz787> we nee to build a laser cutter first 13:39 < delinquentme> like i can learn 13:39 < delinquentme> and ive built working shit 13:39 < nmz787> didnt you build that liquid handler? 13:39 < delinquentme> yeah thats what used for? 13:39 < delinquentme> haha yeah i built the lh001 13:39 < kanzure> https://github.com/delinquentme/LH001 13:39 < delinquentme> so like i've got some experience 13:40 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY5IY5CZ1es 13:40 < kanzure> (LH001 vid) 13:40 < delinquentme> ^ 13:40 < delinquentme> but the laser 13:40 < nmz787> basically we just need an XYZ gantry or XY slide stage 13:40 < nmz787> i can do the optics 13:40 < nmz787> already need to 13:40 < delinquentme> but what does it need to burn 13:40 < nmz787> already getting into it 13:40 < delinquentme> or cut 13:40 < nmz787> oh 13:40 < nmz787> PDMS 13:40 < nmz787> and acrylic 13:41 < delinquentme> imsorry 13:41 < delinquentme> you need a laser cutter for? 13:41 < nmz787> we'll either use CO2 or a solid state laser at 830nm 13:41 < delinquentme> thats what you mean right 13:41 < nmz787> making microfluidics quickly 13:41 < delinquentme> ... 13:41 < nmz787> we cant make DNA without pipes 13:41 < delinquentme> i thought thats what the stanford lab is for 13:41 < kanzure> four day turn around 13:42 < nmz787> and no one makes a laser cutter for micro scale 13:42 < nmz787> and much more expensive 13:42 < nmz787> you start doing that when you are pretty sure a design is decent 13:42 < delinquentme> i guess im missing why we need so many prototypes 13:42 < delinquentme> like build it once .. check it 12 times 13:42 < delinquentme> proto 13:42 < delinquentme> 4 days is fine 13:42 < delinquentme> kanzure, you sound like alex 13:42 < nmz787> not for what we'll likely need for at least the first 3 months of serious microfluidic work 13:42 < kanzure> delinquentme: alex sounds like ME 13:42 < delinquentme> ZOMG 1 week turnaround .. better buy 20 grand 3rdpinter 13:43 < nmz787> its not gonna be like that 13:43 < delinquentme> doesnt make sense to me 13:43 < delinquentme> hmmm 13:43 < nmz787> we will need lots of prototypes 13:43 < delinquentme> whats used to prototype these? 13:43 < nmz787> there is a lot of integration to do 13:43 < delinquentme> software wise 13:43 < kanzure> there is basically a 0% chance that the first version will do anything at all 13:43 < nmz787> kanzure says he'll figure out software 13:43 < nmz787> basically we need custom CAD 13:43 < delinquentme> like i can go start bugging the shit out of people at CMU 13:44 < nmz787> and ideally we would have some integrated fluidic simulation stuff 13:44 < nmz787> i don't think its time yet to start going crazy 13:45 < delinquentme> nmz787, but i wanna. 13:45 < nmz787> first things first... we need pipes 13:45 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:45 < delinquentme> pipes being the microfluidics 13:45 < delinquentme> kanzure, the majority of the microfluidics are simply valve / flow design right? 13:45 < kanzure> right 13:46 < delinquentme> http://www.finelineprototyping.com/ I can call these guys and get some free prototypes 13:46 < delinquentme> also i'd love to design the control software for this once we've got the chemistry down 13:47 < kanzure> delinquentme: have you seen the usb controllers? 13:47 < kanzure> http://www.stanford.edu/group/foundry/Building%20Your%20Own%20Valve%20Controller.html 13:47 < delinquentme> "the" usb controllers? 13:47 < kanzure> https://sites.google.com/a/lbl.gov/microfluidics-lab/valve-controllers/usb-based-controller 13:48 < delinquentme> yeahh you showed me this 13:48 < delinquentme> $600 dollar microcontrollers 13:48 < delinquentme> thats excessive no? 13:48 < kanzure> yes 13:48 < kanzure> should be way cheaper 13:48 < nmz787> fineline doesnt have any materials i recognize 13:48 < nmz787> well, for bioengi work 13:49 < nmz787> polyprop might work 13:49 < delinquentme> nmz787, they've got options for non-reactive for bio 13:49 < delinquentme> i've attempted to order from them before 13:49 < nmz787> for valving needs to be flexible 13:49 < delinquentme> yeah 13:50 < nmz787> yeah those controllers are overpriced and suck IMO 13:50 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:50 < nmz787> but I worked at a high-end EE company for 9months, though I was a lacky... :d 13:51 -!- crassus [~apnsb@unaffiliated/crassus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:51 < delinquentme> the thing is theres tons of extra stuff there 13:51 < delinquentme> the only EE operations we need are pumps 13:52 < kanzure> you also need to close individual valves 13:52 < delinquentme> http://www.cheme.cmu.edu/people/faculty/sanna.htm 13:52 < delinquentme> this is why i believe in god 13:53 < delinquentme> the chick who works @ CMUs microfluidics lab is CUTE 13:53 < delinquentme> woot. 13:53 < delinquentme> kanzure, but yeah thats just pumps 13:53 < delinquentme> like if we're talking integrated optics for checking flourescent tags thats another thing 13:53 < delinquentme> but we can do pumps fucking cheap 13:54 < delinquentme> nmz787, so you're in the process of building a laser sinterer or printer or some kind of subtractive method? 13:54 < delinquentme> pardon but that seems like tons of work no? 13:55 < delinquentme> what im saying is give me a reason to go flirt with the pretty chemist at CMU 13:55 < delinquentme> OKE? 13:55 < delinquentme> ok. 13:56 < kanzure> we need custom optics anyway on a laser cutter 13:56 < kanzure> so either spend $16k to get the cutter and some special optics 13:56 < kanzure> or just build the cutter how we need it 13:57 < delinquentme> im missing something here 13:57 < delinquentme> why is this needed 13:57 < kanzure> there's no commercial, affordable laser cutter that does 1 micron cuts 13:57 < delinquentme> you're saying for rapid prototyping 13:57 < kanzure> yes? 13:57 < delinquentme> im saying thats ridiculous 13:58 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme, it is not that unrealistic. 13:58 < kanzure> it's also not difficult 13:58 < delinquentme> how many iterations do you need 13:58 < ThomasEgi> blue ray even gets in the nm range 13:58 < delinquentme> 100? 13:58 < delinquentme> ok fine thats 2.5gs 13:58 < delinquentme> and we can start working on chemistry and channel cuts tomorrow 13:59 < kanzure> i want prototyping turn around time of 30 minutes to, at most 2 hours 13:59 < kanzure> not "4 days" 14:00 < poptire> yo kanzure 14:00 < delinquentme> kanz 14:00 < kanzure> poptire: sup 14:00 < delinquentme> thats fucking masturbation 14:00 < poptire> have you spoken to the person in charge of homecmos at all? 14:00 < nmz787> no way 14:00 < kanzure> poptire: yes 14:00 < delinquentme> we're talking about making syringe pumps for this 14:00 < poptire> i'm interested in it, but it seems quite dead 14:00 < kanzure> poptire: he's in here.. azonenberg 14:00 < nmz787> i've done microfluidics prep in a clean room 14:00 < delinquentme> and thats hugely less complex 14:00 < nmz787> but still PITA 14:01 < delinquentme> and you'd say "lets buy that" for a pump 14:01 < nmz787> rapid prototyping is the way to go to not have to worry about the fab 14:01 < delinquentme> but lets proto the laser 14:01 < delinquentme> thats nute 14:01 < nmz787> of paying out the ass to get off the ground to pitch to VCs 14:01 < delinquentme> how many fluids do you need 14:01 < nmz787> well appropriate pumps exist off-shelf 14:01 < kanzure> i think there's at least seven separate chemicals? 14:01 < delinquentme> what im saying is we're not working with 1000+ fluids 14:01 < kanzure> no not 1000 14:01 < delinquentme> SEVEN 14:01 < delinquentme> how complex can that chip be? 14:01 < kanzure> also if we use enzymes.. 14:01 < nmz787> closest approximation of what i need is ~$150k 14:01 < kanzure> hahah 14:01 < delinquentme> not at all 14:01 < poptire> is he still working on it? looks like nothing's been updated since october 14:01 < kanzure> azonenberg: ping? 14:01 < nmz787> then $16k for a shitty version of what i want 14:02 < kanzure> poptire: iirc yes he's still working on it but he's also in college 14:02 < delinquentme> but why do we need that many prototypes 14:02 < delinquentme> the chip isnt complex 14:02 < kanzure> delinquentme: because things just don't work 14:02 < kanzure> hahah 14:02 < poptire> kanzure: out of curiosity, you know where he goes to school? 14:02 < kanzure> poptire: let me check 14:02 < nmz787> it will be part of a system 14:02 < nmz787> i'm not aiming to stop at this one chip 14:02 < delinquentme> nmz787, absolutely but the sooner we get a proof of concept 14:02 < kanzure> annnd there's so many things you have to debug with eah prototype 14:02 < delinquentme> i can call labs up 14:03 < delinquentme> and we can go right the customer money 14:03 < kanzure> why call labs up? 14:03 < delinquentme> that! 14:03 < nmz787> in my experience its just not how building something the right way/engineering works/goes 14:03 < kanzure> we don't even know if it works 14:03 < delinquentme> THAT 14:03 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:03 < delinquentme> nmz787, but im arguing that its not that complex 14:03 < kanzure> really 14:03 < delinquentme> so i need a number of how many channels we're talking about 14:03 < delinquentme> the chip kanzure to mix 7 fluids 14:03 < delinquentme> is not complex 14:03 < kanzure> it's not just "mix 7 fluids" 14:03 < nmz787> the reason ppl havent done this is because its complex, but IMO worth the hassle in the long run 14:03 < kanzure> it's "route and organize a million droplets" 14:04 < kanzure> so droplet generation has to work 14:04 < kanzure> droplet mixing has to work 14:04 < nmz787> and because i'm not an old person set in my research interests, who can't just say 'fuck it, lets stop the presses and do it the right way" 14:04 < kanzure> you have to make sure it mixes and has the right temperature 14:04 < delinquentme> droplets is simply channel width no? 14:04 < nmz787> also generating droplets 14:04 < kanzure> droplet generation requires tweaking 14:04 < kanzure> there's a ton of variables 14:04 < nmz787> getting PDMS/glass light pipes to work 14:04 < nmz787> so we can get droplet counting to work 14:04 < nmz787> and getting that synced with the valving and pumps 14:05 < delinquentme> so what if i called up 100 places with these laser printers 14:05 < nmz787> there may be two different kinds of pumps 14:05 < nmz787> and multiple of those 14:05 < delinquentme> and got a place which could give us turn around in a day 14:05 < nmz787> no one has a micron scale laser cutter 14:05 < delinquentme> can we skip the laser 14:05 < delinquentme> nmz787, they wouldnt advertise microfluidics if they didnt 14:05 < nmz787> laser printers are shitty 14:05 < nmz787> not reliable method 14:05 < delinquentme> and on top of that! you're saying no one has one of these and you're going to proto it? 14:05 < delinquentme> ^ that speaks for itself no? 14:05 < nmz787> no one had an LH001 14:06 < kanzure> delinquentme: you should have more faith in us 14:06 < nmz787> didnt hyou proto it? 14:06 < nmz787> its really not much more complex, maybe less 14:06 < nmz787> for the laser 14:06 < kanzure> i find your lak of faith disturbing 14:06 < delinquentme> nmz787, there are many liquid handlers 14:06 < delinquentme> kanzure, its not faith lol 14:06 < kanzure> lack of faith http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI8GEidaMMI 14:06 < nmz787> throughout my life i've made my own tools 14:06 < delinquentme> ... 14:06 < nmz787> its why i own a hammer, wrenches, and a MIG welder 14:06 < delinquentme> so because thats what you've done 14:06 < delinquentme> thats what you're going to do 14:06 < delinquentme> whats the timeline on this 14:07 < kanzure> delinquentme: no.. it's because we don't want to pay for a laser cutter 14:07 < delinquentme> nmz787, i know we just met 14:07 < kanzure> i estimate 6 months tops until a working prototype (with debugging) 14:07 < delinquentme> but like im trying to get an idea here 14:07 < delinquentme> and "just because" 14:07 < delinquentme> is what the justification is thusfar 14:07 < nmz787> its because the $16k best laser out there in this exponent isnt right for the jo 14:07 < nmz787> b 14:07 -!- crassus [~apnsb@unaffiliated/crassus] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 14:07 < kanzure> delinquentme: feel free to call up people and get customers 14:07 < delinquentme> exponent = resolution ? 14:07 < nmz787> 16k vs 160k 14:08 < delinquentme> ohhhh 14:08 < delinquentme> how are you finishing the chips 14:08 < nmz787> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CF8QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.himt.de%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fdwl66fs.php&ei=Trh8T-uPOMnV0QHyiIjpCw&usg=AFQjCNEsU4of4ZQEy9cz5UxegCAtK_V9dw&sig2=JrDe9r3op8KQqRM5nMEePw 14:08 < kanzure> a foundry might be able to give us a 1-day turnaround but i doubt it.. they would also probably be pricier than stanford 14:09 < nmz787> that massive hulk is closer than a $16k laser cutter to what we need 14:09 < delinquentme> no first go at a laser cutter or whatever this is will give us something production ready 14:09 < nmz787> but also wayyyyy over qualified for the job 14:09 < nmz787> its not a concern to me 14:09 < ThomasEgi> anyone knows how much piezo xy-tables go for? 14:09 < nmz787> i need to develop my skill with optics for a multitude of reasons 14:10 < nmz787> the XYZ is done as far as a laser cutter goes 14:10 < nmz787> EMC, all that crap 14:10 < delinquentme> 1 thats a stupid-small resolution 14:10 < nmz787> even then, if kanzure gets his CAD shit together, I can write a simple controllers 14:10 < ThomasEgi> z is comparebly easy to do in DIY way 14:10 < delinquentme> how are they going to be ready made out of the machine 14:10 < kanzure> they? 14:10 < kanzure> what 14:10 < delinquentme> the chips 14:10 < nmz787> they aren't finished 14:10 < kanzure> they aren't.. you have a bonding step 14:11 < nmz787> then you put the lime in the coconut 14:11 < nmz787> i mean, hook it up to the pumps 14:11 < delinquentme> yes and you're saying that stepping and everything else 14:11 < delinquentme> on a DIY CNC machine 14:11 < kanzure> no the bonding would probably be manual 14:11 < delinquentme> will cut smooth channels 14:11 < delinquentme> at this resolution 14:11 < delinquentme> like i cant see it 14:11 < nmz787> no 14:11 < kanzure> yes we can get smooth cuts with 0.01 micron stepping 14:11 < kanzure> or whatever 14:11 < nmz787> i have already done 3D scanning with an interferometer on PDMS cut with a tradition CO2 laser optics setup 14:12 < nmz787> ULS versalaser 14:12 < nmz787> the problem is that they werent doing it right 14:12 < nmz787> on a macro/meso level you can't tell because they're made to cut wood/acrylic 14:12 < delinquentme> like thats a finished machine 14:12 < delinquentme> meso? 14:12 < nmz787> but the step size, travel speed is just too big 14:13 < nmz787> and they dont do any microstepping 14:13 < nmz787> meso=medium 14:13 < nmz787> between macro and micro 14:13 < delinquentme> the chem protocol isnt even validated yet 14:13 < nmz787> which? 14:13 < kanzure> oligo synthesis has been done before in the literature 14:13 < kanzure> ligation is a more experimental thing that we'd like to try 14:14 < delinquentme> in the literature != production ready 14:14 < kanzure> exactly 14:14 < nmz787> you said validated 14:14 < kanzure> that's why we will need many prototypes 14:14 < nmz787> it has been validated 14:14 < kanzure> right 14:14 < delinquentme> thats mixing shit 14:14 < nmz787> no one has picked it up for production 14:14 < nmz787> because they aren't disgusted like kanzure and i 14:14 < delinquentme> not building the most accurate laser cutter this side of 160g 14:14 < nmz787> i never said it would be most accurate 14:15 < kanzure> man people think things are harder or more expensive than they actually are 14:15 < nmz787> 1/4 40 lead screws and 256 microstepping steppers should be fine for what we need 14:15 < delinquentme> if i could cut my right nut off 14:15 < delinquentme> id slam it on the table 14:15 < nsh> kanzure: don't bemoan that fact before it starts paying your living 14:15 < delinquentme> and say there is no way in hell 14:15 < delinquentme> that youll even be CUTTING 14:15 < delinquentme> in 6 months 14:15 < kanzure> nsh: i charge by the value i provide not the material cost of bytes 14:15 < delinquentme> its just more STUFF 14:15 < delinquentme> before we get to the actual work at hand 14:15 < nsh> kanzure: fair play :) 14:16 < delinquentme> are we building laser cutters or DNA synthesizers? 14:16 < nmz787> but then we already have a product 14:16 < delinquentme> because right now we're fucking halcyoning it 14:16 < nmz787> a microfluidics rapid prototyping machine 14:16 < delinquentme> thats for you kanz 14:16 < kanzure> even halcyon had a machine shop 14:16 < kanzure> and a biology lab 14:16 < kanzure> and a chemistry lab 14:16 < kanzure> and then their SEM room 14:17 < delinquentme> they're funded. 14:17 < delinquentme> sorry 14:17 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-13-145.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:17 < kanzure> so? 14:17 < delinquentme> if we landed $150 14:17 < kanzure> don't worry about the money/costs 14:17 < kanzure> that's MY job 14:17 < delinquentme> it sure as shit should not be spent building a laser cutter 14:17 < delinquentme> this is a hobby 14:17 < kanzure> laser cutter ain't going to cost much 14:17 < delinquentme> this is not a business 14:17 < nmz787> this isn't really helping. I thought you would think putting the laser cutter together would be cake after your Lh001 14:17 < delinquentme> nmz787, like i like the idea 14:17 < kanzure> delinquentme: yes right now we're just prototyping 14:17 < delinquentme> down the road yes 14:18 < kanzure> we don't have a product to sell customers, so that's why i'm not selling it 14:18 < delinquentme> but the laser cutter is a undertaking 14:18 < delinquentme> thats between us 14:18 < delinquentme> and product 14:18 < kanzure> maybe it's not a product 14:18 < nmz787> right but its the right way to do things 14:18 < delinquentme> "right way" 14:18 < delinquentme> is subjective 14:18 < kanzure> well if you have a $160k laser cutter please let me know 14:18 < nmz787> we will drown in fees before we ever get shit to work if we send out to stanford for evey chip 14:18 < delinquentme> we need a feature list for the chip 14:19 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-21-39.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:19 < delinquentme> because i have to be underestimating how complex it is 14:19 < nmz787> already in the literature 14:19 < kanzure> nmz787: to be fair it will probably be our own design? 14:19 < ParahSailin> laser is 160k? 14:19 < kanzure> ParahSailin: typical laser is 16k but we need special optics 14:19 < kanzure> ParahSailin: so we're building our own mini laser cutter 14:19 < kanzure> because it's cheap enough to just build it 14:19 < nmz787> kanzure: right, but we're definitely taking 2-5 devices and integrating into one chip 14:19 < kanzure> rather than buying some crap 14:19 < kanzure> nmz787: well that too.. (down the line) 14:20 < nmz787> kanzure: right, and the end of the line is the product 14:20 < kanzure> heh 14:20 < katsmeow-afk> [OffTopic] when this topic is over, can someone please describe a laser that will melt the ends of the copper wire as shown in http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/real_motors/large_images/DSC00079.jpg 14:20 < ParahSailin> inkjet photolithography mask, photolithography out some su-8 molds 14:20 < ParahSailin> soft lithography your pdms offa that shit 14:20 < nmz787> which is why i think it is worth it to invest once in PDMS prototyping 14:20 < kanzure> ParahSailin: takes a bit too long for my tastes 14:21 < ParahSailin> vs 160k, what is greater net present value? 14:21 < nmz787> no 14:21 < nmz787> not if we build our own 14:21 < kanzure> it doesn't cost us 160k to build our own 14:21 < kanzure> repeat: it is cheaper to just build it than to buy it 14:21 < ParahSailin> 16k plus optics? 14:21 < kanzure> 16k plus optics is buying a standard laser cutter 14:21 < nmz787> we'll probably end up finding a XY stage on ebay for $150 or something, the optics won't be more than $200 or $300 14:21 < kanzure> albeit, 16k is a "new" cutter. i bought a laser cutter once for $600 but it had like 1mm resolution at best 14:21 < delinquentme> what turn around time do you need to abandon the laser cutter 14:22 < delinquentme> kanzure, nmz787 14:22 < nmz787> ? 14:22 < delinquentme> on a prototype 14:22 < nmz787> i want within the day 14:22 < kanzure> overnight? 14:22 < ParahSailin> how much labor and cash will the laser cutter take 14:22 < kanzure> ParahSailin: <$15k 14:23 < nmz787> 10-20 hours of parts finding online and calling dealers, etc 14:23 < kanzure> 10-20 hours of arguing with me about what color it should be 14:23 < nmz787> 20-40 hours to go from parts to working gantry 14:23 < ParahSailin> i think its cool, you guys gonna open source that design? 14:23 < kanzure> hell yeah 14:24 < nmz787> another 40-100 hours for software (custom microfluidic cad software, and the motor controllers) 14:24 < kanzure> uh plus "possibly weeks" for various delivery times 14:24 < ParahSailin> kickstarter or glbse that shit 14:24 < nmz787> hmm 14:24 < kanzure> ParahSailin: nah we don't need kickstarter 14:24 < ParahSailin> free money 14:24 < kanzure> not really 14:25 < kanzure> then we have to make a crapload of stickers, give 5% to amazon, give 5% to kickstarter.. 14:25 < kanzure> that's starting to sound like work 14:25 < ParahSailin> glbse it then 14:25 < kanzure> glbse? 14:25 < ParahSailin> bitcoin stock exchange 14:25 < delinquentme> specifically what about making one chip per iteration and checking the shit out of it 14:25 < delinquentme> is so ridiculous to you guys 14:25 < delinquentme> how many variables does that $250 / pop make dissappear 14:25 < kanzure> have you ever written code 14:26 < kanzure> where you run your code and you have an error 14:26 < kanzure> so you fix your error and run it again 14:26 < delinquentme> kanzure 14:26 < delinquentme> this chip 14:26 < kanzure> now imagine it takes 24 huors to run it again 14:26 < delinquentme> is not code. 14:26 < delinquentme> this chip is not fucking code 14:26 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:26 < delinquentme> to compare it to code 14:26 < delinquentme> is ludicrous 14:26 < ParahSailin> when i was doing microfluidics we only ever had to make like 3 iterations of a mask 14:26 < kanzure> ParahSailin: yes but you probably had people that knew what they were doing 14:26 < F71> When I'm protoboarding something, I spend most of the time screwing it up and trying to figure out workarounds 14:26 < kanzure> yep 14:27 < kanzure> ParahSailin: please elaborate 14:27 < ParahSailin> delinquentme, i think a cheap microfluidic patterning system has some value for other projects as well 14:27 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, absolutely 14:27 < ParahSailin> so while its a "delay" in the context of this one 14:27 < delinquentme> but are we making synthesizers or novel lasers 14:27 < ParahSailin> i can see it having good value 14:28 < kanzure> ParahSailin: so who designed your masks 14:28 < nmz787> parahsailin: were you working with longtime engineers or any phds? 14:28 < delinquentme> yes but were inventing new technology when we could be working on real shit 14:28 < kanzure> laser cutters are very well known.. not new at all 14:28 < delinquentme> sorry i dont mean that its not real 14:28 < nmz787> delinwuentme: both IMO 14:28 < ParahSailin> i was working under a research scientist (phd) 14:28 < delinquentme> but its not as close to the bottom line as making the chips is 14:28 < kanzure> ParahSailin: did he do the masks? 14:28 < ParahSailin> the masks were real simple though 14:28 < delinquentme> nmz787, you are correct 14:28 < kanzure> what were your chips 14:28 < ParahSailin> just autocad stuff 14:28 -!- nathaniel_ is now known as nathaniel 14:28 < kanzure> yeah but what did they do 14:29 < ParahSailin> draw 100 micron channels 14:29 < kanzure> can you describe it 14:29 < delinquentme> better yet do you have schematics? 14:29 < ParahSailin> like lines, curvy lines, reservoirs, i linked the paper at one point -- is it in your papers2 dir? 14:29 < kanzure> ok one sec 14:30 < nmz787> IMO we might need to have at least one or two peristaltic pumps 14:30 < F71> There are decent peristalic pumps in a swiffer wetjet 14:30 < delinquentme> TIL 14:31 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/parah.txt 14:31 < nmz787> PDMS peristaltic pumps 14:31 < ParahSailin> bbiab 14:31 < kanzure> which link was it 14:31 < nmz787> g2g to class 14:31 < nmz787> bbl 14:33 < kanzure> delinquentme: maybe you should post to mems-talk asking for quick turnaround 14:34 < delinquentme> google group? 14:35 < kanzure> no it's hosted elsewhere 14:36 < delinquentme> after the sequence is built up 14:36 < delinquentme> how do we cut it from its bead and isolate only the sequence we're after 14:36 < kanzure> wash it with a particular chemical 14:36 < kanzure> then you send it off to sequencing.. 14:36 < delinquentme> are we using the same initial bead + template for all sequences? 14:37 < kanzure> yes? 14:38 < delinquentme> restriction enzyme 14:38 < kanzure> delinquentme: the restriction enzyme method will only be used for the ligation strategy 14:38 < kanzure> chemical oligo synthesis (with the crazy number of chemicals) does not use enzymes anywhere 14:39 < delinquentme> correct 14:39 < delinquentme> 400 solutions 14:39 < kanzure> 400?! 14:39 < kanzure> no it's more like 7-12 14:40 < delinquentme> for the nucleicacid pairs? 14:40 < kanzure> yes? 14:40 < delinquentme> 20*20 no? 14:40 < delinquentme> then all the other ones 14:40 < kanzure> you're thinking amino acids 14:40 < delinquentme> yeah amino 14:40 < delinquentme> sorry 14:40 < kanzure> only four nucleic acids 14:40 < delinquentme> so we've got 2-mer sets of aminos 14:40 < kanzure> 20 amino acids. we're not working with amino acids. 14:40 < delinquentme> we need 1 of every combination 14:40 < kanzure> nope.. no amino acids 14:41 < delinquentme> arent all the additive 6-mers amino acids? 14:41 < kanzure> no those are nucleic acids 14:41 < delinquentme> the sequences we use to build the chain? 14:41 < kanzure> AAAAA, AAAAT, AAATT, AATTT, ... 14:41 < delinquentme> last page here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf 14:42 < delinquentme> middle slide TCTTAC 14:42 < kanzure> right 14:42 < delinquentme> 6-mer sequence 2-mer amino 14:42 < delinquentme> those are injected into that bath as complete sequences no? 14:42 < kanzure> thymine cytosine thymien thymine adenosine cytosine 14:42 < delinquentme> yes 14:42 < kanzure> those are all nucleotides 14:43 < delinquentme> how are those built 14:43 < delinquentme> those are nucleotides AND amino acids no? 14:43 < delinquentme> 6 nucleotides .. 2 amino acids 14:43 < kanzure> that diagram is explaining the ligation library method where you have 4000 droplets on the chip of different DNA sequences that you plug together 14:43 < kanzure> no. no aminos! 14:44 < delinquentme> 3 base pairs = 1 amino acid 14:44 < delinquentme> no? 14:44 < kanzure> nope 14:44 < F71> what about guanine? 14:44 < kanzure> 3 base pairs can code for a "codon" 14:44 < kanzure> fuck guanine! nobody likes guanine. what? 14:45 < kanzure> delinquentme: an amino acid is not made up of nucleotides.. nucleotides are just used by cells to remember /which/ amino acid to use when constructing a protein 14:45 < kanzure> so think about this.. there are 20 types of amino acids right? 14:45 < delinquentme> ok 14:45 < delinquentme> yeh 14:45 < kanzure> well a 3-sequence strand has 4^3 possibilities 14:45 < kanzure> 4^3 is waaay bigger than 20 14:46 < delinquentme> each has some number of nucleotides which code for that amino acid 14:46 < F71> I've never heard of thymien, what is this dickery 14:46 < kanzure> hehe 14:46 < delinquentme> ok so back to the assembly kanzure 14:47 < kanzure> F71: it's german 14:47 < delinquentme> in what kmer sized blocks 14:47 < delinquentme> are we adding nucloetides in 14:47 < kanzure> in the ligation synthesis method outlined in those slides.. it's just a 6mer being added to the growing strand 14:47 < kanzure> once you get up to >60mer you can use pcr to assemble things based on hybridization 14:48 < delinquentme> so we need reservoirs of each of those 14:48 < kanzure> or you can ontinue using ligation of course 14:48 < delinquentme> whatever mer is being added 14:48 < kanzure> sure.. so that's why i think droplets are the way to go 14:48 < kanzure> you can just store droplets everywhere 14:48 < delinquentme> whatever 6mer is being added 14:48 < kanzure> like in a first-in first-out droplet queue for the library 14:48 < delinquentme> can you just take a droplet of As and Cs 14:49 < delinquentme> and they'll bond? 14:49 < delinquentme> surely not 14:49 < kanzure> no you need more chemistry than that 14:49 < delinquentme> yeah 14:50 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.186.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:51 < delinquentme> kanzure, the more chemistry part? 14:51 < delinquentme> like what is that process 14:51 < delinquentme> heating it? 14:51 < delinquentme> surely thatll bond some of them 14:51 < nsh> ligation is an occult art 14:52 < nsh> you tweak things on very expensive equipment, wait for hours, repeat for the next four days 14:53 < delinquentme> like i still dont have a clear idea as to the inputs required for the synthesis 14:57 < ParahSailin> phone interview 14:57 < kanzure> delinquentme: read here.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ 14:57 < ParahSailin> cant wait to be not unemployed 14:58 < kanzure> ParahSailin: email me a resume kanzure@gmail.com 14:58 < ParahSailin> sure, what you got? 14:59 < kanzure> things come and go 15:01 < ParahSailin> how complex do you see the microfluidics being? 15:01 < ParahSailin> this is the thing that has to valve and route a power of 4 different oligos? 15:03 < kanzure> yes 15:03 < katsmeow-afk> "route a power" ? 15:03 < kanzure> i haven't done the whole layout yet but i imagine i will need to be able to control lots of wash lines, different lines for different chemicals (maybe), and be able to move droplets out of a first-in first-out channel 15:03 < kanzure> a power of 4 15:03 < kanzure> 4^6 different 6mers 15:04 < kanzure> (or whatever) 15:04 < katsmeow-afk> is the control area made of a flexable material? 15:04 < delinquentme> also for the beads to build up like they're shown there will need to be flow through at the Xed channels 15:04 < kanzure> ParahSailin: for the non-ligation-based-design which, imho we should probably try first, just the chemical oligo method.. it will probably be slightly less complicated but not significantly so 15:04 < ParahSailin> thats.. challenging 15:04 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, yeah they expand with pressure to open/close 15:04 < kanzure> 4^6 droplets? nah 15:05 < kanzure> don't worry about that for now 15:05 < katsmeow-afk> delinquentme, you have that mechanical motion solved? 15:05 < ParahSailin> droplets.. even more challenging 15:05 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, its just pump pressure 15:05 < katsmeow-afk> ok 15:06 < delinquentme> yeah as pressure + the close off channel swells 15:06 < F71> What about using piezo-based pumps? 15:06 < kanzure> i don't imagine pumps will be a problem 15:06 < F71> k 15:06 < ParahSailin> my old boss was pretty adamant about electo-osmosis for flow -- i dont know how correct he is 15:07 < kanzure> ParahSailin: i did an electro-osmotic flow cfd simulation once.. 15:07 < F71> ONCE 15:07 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPY84NelFO4 15:07 < ParahSailin> pressure driven flow has problems with the deformation of pdms 15:08 < kanzure> why do i have 2000 views on that 15:08 < katsmeow-afk> dunno about the pumps, but for 1000's of valves, controlling a pressure (which operates the valves) using electrorheologic system might be really cheap and instantaneous 15:08 < ParahSailin> 1000s of valves just sounds scary to fab 15:09 < katsmeow-afk> it would be scarey, but with no movng parts, it can be fabbed on a cnc mill automagically 15:09 < F71> Are you planning to have these 6mers in resovoirs? 15:09 < kanzure> i don't know what the count will be 15:09 < kanzure> F71: nope.. in droplets in a first-in first-out channel 15:09 < kanzure> 6mers attached to beads in droplets 15:09 < kanzure> each droplet has a different 6mer population 15:09 < ParahSailin> oh macro sized valves? 15:10 < kanzure> ParahSailin: no i mean junctions.. like pdms pressure valves 15:10 < katsmeow-afk> if your material lines are on the top of a surface, the control system can be on the bottom with "vias" drilled to connect them as needed 15:10 -!- augur [~augur@96.241.2.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:11 -!- F71 is now known as F7-homebound 15:11 -!- F7-homebound [~Adium@safekick-americas-2.consolidated.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:11 < ParahSailin> the chips we made usually had 6 or 8 via reservoirs 15:11 < kanzure> ah sounds very simple 15:11 < kanzure> ParahSailin: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf 15:11 < ParahSailin> and still very difficult to fabricate 15:12 < kanzure> you said only 3 prototypes :P 15:13 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:13 < kanzure> yo yashgaroth.. backlog stuff 15:13 < yashgaroth> aight 15:14 < ParahSailin> could you maybe do p-amid chemistry on chip? 15:14 < katsmeow-afk> ok, i was just thinking of the control devices for the valve pressure control, sure the valve pressure operates the pdms, but you still have no control of the pressure that operates those valves, and for an array of 100's or 1000's, i think the electrorheology scales nicely down to the mvt system, can even be mounted near it on the same substrate/carrier, and the computer/control-fluid-pressure has no moving parts 15:14 < kanzure> yes that's the irst plan 15:14 < kanzure> *first 15:15 < kanzure> chemical oligo synthesis first. then ligation when we show that our ligation strategy doesn't suck. 15:15 < ParahSailin> i dont know about electrorheology in microfluidics 15:15 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: https://sites.google.com/a/lbl.gov/microfluidics-lab/valve-controllers/usb-based-controller 15:16 < katsmeow-afk> selenoid valves, ouch 15:17 < katsmeow-afk> "This controller provides valve switching times of 50ms or more", when i said "instant", i meant nanosecs 15:18 < delinquentme> ok i gotta go make walks 15:18 < delinquentme> brb 15:18 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@216.183.186.16] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 15:18 < katsmeow-afk> plus no moving parts = the "selenoid" in the rheology device is merely two metalised strips 15:21 < ParahSailin> what about the nanopore membrane filter as valve 15:22 < kanzure> how do you switch it? 15:22 < katsmeow-afk> kanzure, which? 15:22 < ybit> fenn: don't you use kde? 15:23 < kanzure> katsmeow-afk: ParahSailin's nanopore valve 15:23 < kanzure> ybit: he has switched to the dark side and uses gnome now 15:23 < ParahSailin> you "switch" it by applying voltage across it -- the only way fluid current will flow through it is the electromotive force 15:23 < kanzure> uh but now we have to get electricity to it somehow 15:23 < ParahSailin> no amount of pressure will make fluid flow through it 15:24 < katsmeow-afk> hence the metalised side walls 15:24 < ParahSailin> just connectivity with your fluid channels 15:24 * ybit can't think of any evil jedi who look like fenn 15:24 < kanzure> yes but the fabrication process will need to have something about embedding wires :| 15:24 < katsmeow-afk> there's nearly zero current involved, dip electroplating would suffice 15:24 < ParahSailin> no thats not what i mean 15:25 * katsmeow-afk points kanzure to the 1960's wire stiching machines 15:25 < ParahSailin> X is two channels crossing \ is one layer, middle layer is your membrane filter, / is other channel 15:26 < ParahSailin> voltage applied at the four reservoirs controls the flow and the "gating" 15:26 < katsmeow-afk> umm, you don't mean to apply voltage thru the fluid you are working with, right? 15:29 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parah@adsl-69-151-149-231.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:29 < katsmeow-afk> umm, you don't mean to apply voltage thru the fluid you are working with, right? 15:29 < ParahSailin_> we did that, yah 15:29 < katsmeow-afk> not all materials wil respond "properly" to voltage across them 15:30 < ParahSailin_> the stuff we used was pretty low ionic strength, i dunno if thats a constraint here 15:30 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:31 < katsmeow-afk> erg, i need to go ~40ft afk , bbl 15:34 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: how does that work with multiple gates? 15:35 < ParahSailin_> heh, we only ever needed one gate 15:35 < ParahSailin_> so maybe ignore this suggestion 15:42 -!- vrs_ is now known as vrs 15:42 -!- vrs [vrs@encephalon.lambda.name] has quit [Changing host] 15:42 -!- vrs [vrs@unaffiliated/vrs] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:50 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-67-163-157-246.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:54 < kanzure> someone has really screwed up sciencedirect 15:54 < kanzure> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103109001164 15:55 < kanzure> ads are 30% of the screen 15:55 < kanzure> footer is 30% of the screen 15:55 < kanzure> header is 20% of the screen 15:55 < kanzure> 20% is the content 15:55 < ParahSailin_> oh yah they really did 15:56 < ParahSailin_> how is the pirate science repository coming 15:57 < kanzure> brb fixing a car 15:58 < ybit> ParahSailin_: eh, link? 15:58 < ParahSailin_> kanzure's project 15:58 < ybit> ah 15:59 * ybit steps away from computer 16:02 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.203.109.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:15 < strangewarp> lollin' at Alex Knapp railing against Dyson Spheres as though they're a mainstream end-goal 16:17 < katsmeow-afk> lets see a dyson ring happen first 16:23 < Mokbortolan_> is anybody familiar with the "MyBasis" device? 16:24 < Mokbortolan_> 'cos they're getting sued by BodyMedia: http://news.priorsmart.com/bodymedia-v-basis-science-l5mD/#Complaint 16:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:57 < fenn> words words words 17:06 < fenn> i like the electrorheology idea 17:07 < katsmeow-afk> in the long line from the valve to the selenoid, how do you purge the microtube of air? 17:12 < fenn> Mokbortolan_ has basis even released a product yet? why would you sue someone without a product? 17:12 < fenn> i'm rather sick of hearing about it actually, nevermind 17:13 < fenn> make my own god damn watch 17:14 -!- augur [~augur@96.241.2.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14 < nmz787> back 17:18 < fenn> nmz787: i don't expect we'll have to write any code for the motion controller 17:18 < nmz787> whats out there? the EMC type stuff? 17:18 < fenn> even CAM should be fairly simple, as it's just lines 17:18 < fenn> yeah EMC will be fine for this 17:19 < nmz787> is it extendable? 17:19 < fenn> yes 17:20 < nmz787> cool, i've been wanting to do some custom Z direction stuff with PWMing the laser and/or defocusing the beam during a write... not for microfluidics per se (though I think kanzure sent me a doc recently that made a tapered channel in Z space that way) 17:20 < nmz787> like a wheelchair ramp 17:22 < fenn> what's a tapered channel for? 17:23 < nmz787> i imagine instead of through-layer hard-angle connections 17:23 < nmz787> but with defocusing you can control the cut width at the same time 17:24 < nmz787> so it could also taper in the X or Y 17:24 < nmz787> but like i said, not necessarily for fluidics 17:24 < nmz787> just for lasering in general 17:24 < fenn> i dont understand "instead of through-layer hard-angle connections" 17:25 < fenn> is this to control the turbulence when switching layers? 17:25 < nmz787> to go from one layer of the fluidics to the other 17:25 < nmz787> you need to go through them 17:25 < nmz787> its a PCB term 17:25 < fenn> right 17:25 < fenn> like a via 17:25 < nmz787> yeah 17:26 < nmz787> i know that in some cases sharp angles mess with flow 17:26 < fenn> well anyway, Z axis is standard 17:26 < nmz787> so it would be a nice software function for the custom CAD 17:26 < nmz787> or CAM 17:26 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.186.57] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:31 < fenn> why do we need 6"x6" travel? 17:31 < fenn> i'm seeing a lot of ~2.5"x2.5" stuff 17:31 < nmz787> it would suck to build it too small 17:32 < nmz787> esp since we can't really do more than 2 or 3 fluidic layers with the PDMS cut and transfer method 17:32 < nmz787> the droplet library will be pretty big 17:32 < nmz787> i've calculated the dimensions before once 17:33 < nmz787> lemme thinkg 17:33 < fenn> how are droplets stored anyway? 17:34 < nmz787> in a channel 17:34 < nmz787> next to each other/separated by some oil 17:35 < nmz787> with no space between drops, 25000 drops of 20 microns each yields 50cm of channel 17:35 < kanzure> nothing like pushing a car! roar 17:35 < nmz787> with 5 microns of wall between channels, thats 25 microns per channel width including the walls 17:36 < nmz787> make that into a square and its 3.55cm on side 17:36 < fenn> so the idea is to shuffle them back and forth like a choo choo train? 17:36 < nmz787> so i'd say we want at least 10cm * 10cm of writeable space 17:36 < fenn> then push it out the side when correctly aligned 17:36 < nmz787> make it 15cm per side for good measure 17:36 < nmz787> basically 17:36 < nmz787> have a light-based droplet counterl 17:36 < kanzure> if you want the one in the middle then you pop off the first half and tack them on to the end 17:37 < fenn> definitely want a counter 17:37 < kanzure> except for the one that you want 17:37 < nmz787> i originally thought something like a circle 17:37 < delinquentme> http://scholarometer.indiana.edu/ 17:37 < fenn> can't pump a circle 17:37 < nmz787> with a junction perpendicular to the tangent 17:37 < nmz787> and a peristaltic pump to keep the droplets moving around the circle 17:37 < nmz787> but we thought of a bunch of variations 17:38 < kanzure> i think a straight line would be fine.. it might turn out that you can't pump 50k droplets at once 17:38 < nmz787> you can def pump a circle 17:38 < nmz787> i've done it b4 17:38 < fenn> um. how? 17:38 < nmz787> peristaltic pump 17:39 < fenn> hmm 17:39 < nmz787> need 3 'fingers' 17:39 < nmz787> or solenoids, or a cam shaft with 3 lobes phased right 17:39 < fenn> i'm imagining some crazy zigzag thing and a peristaltic pump seems troublesome 17:40 < nmz787> well the other option is some kind of thing that is spurting waste fluid 17:40 < nmz787> just to move droplets around 17:40 < nmz787> not even to do chemistry 17:40 < kanzure> maybe a giant grid array will be doable but i sorta doubt it 17:40 < fenn> you only need 2 "pistons" full of fluid 17:40 < fenn> kanzure: i was originally thinking grid array but this sounds more feasible 17:40 < nmz787> back and forth? 17:41 < fenn> right, like a slinky 17:41 < nmz787> grid array? 17:41 < nmz787> grid==matrix? matrix of arrays? 17:41 < fenn> yeah, like chinese checkers 17:41 < kanzure> sorry.. grid array just means "a lot of addressable cells with tons and tons of valves" 17:42 < kanzure> grid, array, matrix, thing 17:42 < nmz787> oh 17:42 < nmz787> i dont like it as much as 'circular'/circulating buffer 17:42 < nmz787> butttt 17:42 < kanzure> ok cool 17:42 < kanzure> no i prefer FIFO (first-in first-out) 17:42 < nmz787> we'd really need to figure out cheap ass valves 17:42 < kanzure> but again: i do think it might turn out that you can't pump 50k droplets at once 17:42 < nmz787> <$0.5/each 17:42 < nmz787> maybe 17:43 < kanzure> you won't have the same velocity at the front as the end of the channel 17:43 < fenn> what you mean can't pump 50k droplets at once? 17:43 < kanzure> each additional droplet or micron will have some amount of resistance 17:43 < nmz787> i would think just add another peristatlic pump or two 17:43 < nmz787> or three 17:43 < kanzure> so if the force is so strong at the front.. you end up bursting the droplets and smashing them into each other? 17:43 < nmz787> thats still less actuators than a shitload of valves 17:43 < fenn> i think this is one of those things where you just do the experiment and see 17:44 < fenn> btw this is oil/water droplets right? 17:44 < kanzure> i am a little angry that i can't find a generic paper about the maximum droplet load of a N-lengthed channel 17:44 < kanzure> seems like an obvious question 17:44 < kanzure> yes water-in-oil 17:44 < fenn> ok here's something i'm worried about 17:44 < nmz787> fenn: right, which is another reason i think we need custom cutter 17:44 < fenn> if the droplets are touching the side walls, you get contamination 17:45 < nmz787> so we can do lots of tests and iterations, we're bound to fail a lot 17:45 < kanzure> there's a "no-slip boundary condition" 17:45 < fenn> if the droplets are not touching the walls, they're just sort of floating around 17:45 < kanzure> the water at the walls isn't actually moving 17:45 < nmz787> hmm, sheath fluid? 17:45 < nmz787> that would require a pump to pump 17:45 < nmz787> rather than peristaltic 17:45 < nmz787> though... in a channel long enough, the pressure may get really high, too high for PDMS to withstand 17:46 < nmz787> 50 cm long channel 17:46 < nmz787> i dunno 17:46 < kanzure> yeah we need to do the math on the required pressure 17:46 < nmz787> that seems like something already published 17:46 < kanzure> on a 50 cm channel (or w/e) 17:46 < fenn> make channel wider then 17:46 < kanzure> i haven't seen a publication on that yet (wtf) 17:46 < nmz787> but otherwise i think the multi peristaltic pump would solve that 17:46 < nmz787> split it up into separate zones 17:49 < kanzure> papers! they must be found. 17:50 < nsh> why don't you ask a manufacturer? 17:50 < kanzure> who? 17:51 < nsh> kanzure: ask someone who manufactures microfluidics channels about the droplet load 17:51 < nsh> they'd maybe have better tolerance data than you might find in a published academic paper 17:52 < kanzure> does any manufacturer actually do this though? 17:53 < kanzure> from what i can tell most microfluidics stuff is really lame 17:53 < nsh> hmm, could be so 17:53 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: would your guy be the right person to ask? 17:53 < kanzure> bruce? 17:54 < nsh> maybe throw them a specification and see how confident they are 17:54 < kanzure> fenn: can you look into this 17:55 < fenn> what is "droplet load" exactly> 17:55 * fenn watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7rqq4DHckM 17:56 < kanzure> i mean how many droplets you can pump in a channel without breaking them, for how far/long/pressure 17:56 < fenn> how long is a string? 17:57 < fenn> why would the droplets break in the first place? both the droplet and the fluid around it are incompressible 17:59 < nmz787> framerate of that video sucks 17:59 < azonenberg> kanzure: syn+ack 18:00 < nmz787> well they just said it was 2k fps 18:00 < nmz787> so i guess they were going fast 18:00 < kanzure> azonenberg: someone was wondering about your project status or something 18:00 < kanzure> poptire: ping 18:00 < kanzure> azonenberg: i think poptire was also wondering about what university you go to 18:00 < azonenberg> kanzure: you wont get anywhere with my v6 address lol 18:01 < kanzure> aw :( 18:01 < azonenberg> its a hurricane electric 6to4 into my apartment 18:01 < azonenberg> :p 18:01 < azonenberg> but i'm at RPI 18:01 < kanzure> fenn: ah? incompressible? well then.. 18:01 < poptire> ah. cool 18:01 < kanzure> 2-D transient incompressible flow in a rectangular duct using OpenFOAM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3DQn33MHE 18:02 < kanzure> hmm that looks like a vortex to me 18:02 < kanzure> can't be laminar? 18:02 < kanzure> ok that's meters/second haha 18:02 < poptire> azonenberg: i'm a sophomore EE and your project sounds quite interesting 18:02 < azonenberg> nice 18:02 < azonenberg> so i just mentioned some stuff in the homecmos channel but i'll repeat a bit more here 18:02 < azonenberg> i'm a phd student in CS at RPI 18:03 < azonenberg> this is a side project of mine 18:03 < azonenberg> things are going slowly because i'm busy working on other stuff too but there are definite plans 18:03 < poptire> gotcha 18:03 < azonenberg> working on a nice spin coater now 18:03 < azonenberg> the one i have is too big to fit in my fume hood 18:03 < kanzure> nice.. i will probably need a spin coater in a few months 18:03 < azonenberg> i mean it fits, but there's no airflow around it 18:03 < azonenberg> i'll be publishing cad designs for mine 18:03 < azonenberg> and a full BOM 18:03 < poptire> cool 18:03 < kanzure> great! please attach an open source license to whatever too 18:04 < azonenberg> kanzure: anything i publish will be BSD licensed 18:05 < kanzure> you've made me the happiest girl 18:06 < bkero> kanzure is the happiest girl 18:06 < poptire> azonenberg: if you have some time, could you go into detail about how you made the nyan cat? i think i read somewhere that you used photolitho but i can't seem to find anything beyond that 18:06 < azonenberg> poptire: basic process is easy 18:06 < azonenberg> blank piece of silicon, crystal structure unimportant 18:06 < azonenberg> evaporate Cr adhesion layer + Cu metalization over it 18:07 < azonenberg> i did this in the materials lab on campus, i have a vacuum chabmer at home but havent finished building a deposition rig yet 18:07 < azonenberg> then spin-coat photoresist 18:07 < azonenberg> Print out my mask at 600DPI on transparency film 18:07 < azonenberg> Reduce 10:1 optically through a microscope objective onto the die 18:07 < azonenberg> that gives me 6,000 DPI 18:08 < azonenberg> which allowing for a ~5 pixel design rule gives roughly 20 micron feature sizes 18:08 < poptire> wow 18:08 < azonenberg> then develop and etch in HCl:H2O2 18:08 < azonenberg> http://homecmos.googlecode.com/svn/wiki/images/die_i4_002_fullres.jpg is a SEM shot of parallel lines 18:08 < poptire> do you have any papers/links for more info on the Cr deposition process? 18:09 < azonenberg> standard thermal evaporation from a tungsten basket 18:09 < azonenberg> i used a tool on campus for that 18:09 < azonenberg> pump down to the 1E-6 torr range 18:09 < azonenberg> heat filament until metal charge melts 18:09 < azonenberg> keep heating, vapor pressure increases 18:09 < azonenberg> and metal starts depositing on whatever is nearby 18:10 < poptire> ah. 18:10 < poptire> is that sorta like sputtering? 18:10 < azonenberg> very different 18:10 < azonenberg> both are forms of physical vapor deposition 18:10 < azonenberg> Sputtering involves forming a plasma discharge in argon (usually) at around 1E-2 torr 18:10 < azonenberg> the argon atoms impact your target (the material being deposited) and mechanically dislodge atoms 18:11 < azonenberg> which then deposit on your sample 18:11 < azonenberg> The mean free path at that pressure is much smaller than the distance from the target to the sample 18:11 < azonenberg> which means metal atoms will bounce off other metal atoms or argon atoms on the way to your sample 18:11 < azonenberg> and hit the sample from all directions 18:11 < azonenberg> That results in pretty uniform coverage from all directions 18:11 < azonenberg> Evporation, on the other hand, just involves heating the metal 18:11 < azonenberg> and it evaporates 18:12 < azonenberg> the pressure is much lower which means the atoms move in a straight line from it to the sample 18:12 < azonenberg> this means vertical walls will not be covered much, if at all 18:12 < azonenberg> and if the surface of the sample isn't flat you can get "shadows" 18:12 < azonenberg> in which there is no deposition 18:12 < azonenberg> Some processes actually take advantage of this while for others it can be a problem 18:13 < poptire> word. 18:13 < azonenberg> My current vacuum apparatus gets deep enough for sputtering (or will once i fix a leak or two) but i need to figure out how to purge the chamber with argon 18:13 < azonenberg> since right now it just has air in it 18:14 < azonenberg> i also dont have a HV power source 18:14 < azonenberg> so i have a ways to go still 18:14 < poptire> ah. 18:14 < azonenberg> for now i do metal deposition on campus and everything else in my own lab 18:14 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.186.57] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:15 < poptire> cool 18:15 < delinquentme> usually when someone so convincingly takes over the channel its kanzure 18:15 < poptire> i'd like to try my hand at this before the semester is over 18:15 < delinquentme> azonenberg, has FTWed 18:15 < azonenberg> Be warned this is not an easy project 18:15 < azonenberg> i've been working on it for years (though slowly) 18:17 < poptire> have you managed to make anything resembling a semiconductor device yet? 18:18 < azonenberg> I havent attempted to 18:18 < azonenberg> i've been working on lithography mostly 18:18 < azonenberg> and MEMS 18:18 < azonenberg> The next step is to get a furnace for growing oxide and doing diffusion 18:18 < azonenberg> MTI has a nice one for $1k 18:18 < azonenberg> i plan to buy one in a month or two 18:18 < poptire> cool 18:18 < poptire> do you have a research budget for this, or are you doing it all out of pocket? 18:18 < azonenberg> This is entirely personal 18:18 < azonenberg> hence the slow progress 18:18 < azonenberg> no funding 18:18 < kanzure> do you need funding 18:19 < azonenberg> If you're willing to donate to the project i wont complain, but i'm not asking for it at this point 18:29 < fenn> hmm. this is the only one i've found with >3" travel http://www.ebay.com/itm/C79802-X-Y-Yaskawa-Minertia-Motor-Motorized-Positioning-Stage-w-6-Wafer-Chuck-/390389796944?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae50b9050 18:30 < kanzure> would not using an xy stage be the end of the world 18:30 < fenn> 172 pounds! 18:30 < kanzure> wut 18:30 < fenn> a bridge configuration would be fine 18:30 < kanzure> woah what is this 18:30 < kanzure> this is a beast 18:31 < fenn> 2 of these would be fine http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brooks-Automation-anti-backlash-precision-linear-actuator-positioning-stage-THK-/120887003509?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c256d4975 18:32 < kanzure> that looks more like what i'd expect? 18:36 < fenn> here we go, this is perfect, and only $7k! :P http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Positioning-Systems-Daedal-Division-X-Y-motorized-stage-/320775674700?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aafb85b4c 18:36 < nmz787> or this 18:36 < nmz787> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Industrial-motorized-XY-platform-motorized-XY-motorized-stage-for-macro-photo-/290692593881?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43aea0f8d9#ht_16644wt_1270 18:38 < nmz787> sooo 18:39 < nmz787> 1/4 40 screws with anti-backlash nuts? 18:39 < fenn> certainly needs new screws 18:39 < kanzure> fenn: please use diyhpluswiki 18:39 < kanzure> .. or something 18:40 < nmz787> http://www.haydonkerk.com/LinearMotionProducts/LeadScrewsAndNuts/Nuts/WDGSeriesNuts/tabid/256/Default.aspx 18:40 < ParahSailin_> we always got the masks with chrome already evaporated onto it 18:41 < ParahSailin_> kanzure, yes bruce would be the person to ask 18:41 < kanzure> what am i asking him again? how many droplets i can get into a channel or something? 18:42 < kanzure> fenn which email do you want me to use as your primary 18:42 < ParahSailin_> we never worked with droplets 18:42 < ParahSailin_> plug flow only 18:42 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:42 < kanzure> oh. would bruce know about drops though? 18:42 < delinquentme> why arent you guys buying a makerbot 18:42 < kanzure> makerbot sucks 18:43 < ParahSailin_> i dunno, try him 18:43 < delinquentme> clearly 18:43 < kanzure> delinquentme: why not use reprap instead 18:43 < delinquentme> ok 18:43 < delinquentme> do that then 18:43 < fenn> at least mendel is kinematically designed (sort of) 18:43 < fenn> kanzure: gmail 18:44 < nmz787> i have a makerbot 18:45 < nmz787> dont need to buy one 18:45 < nmz787> well its the house's i guess 18:46 < ParahSailin_> reprap seems i dont understand why 3d print when you could mill stuff out of blocks of plastic that you could cast in big molds 18:47 < kanzure> most people don't have mills 18:47 < ParahSailin_> most people dont have 3d printers 18:47 < ParahSailin_> why choose 3d printer to develop vs mill as a cheap open source hardware 18:48 < kanzure> ask fenn about the conspiracy against stewart platforms 18:49 < fenn> mills are more complicated than 3d printers; gotta think about work holding, cam algorithms, vibration damping (mass), rigidity 18:49 < ParahSailin_> surely with development, an open source mill design could be of comparable price to a reprap 18:50 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:50 < fenn> i doubt it 18:50 < ParahSailin_> ah 18:50 < n_bentha> herro 18:50 < kanzure> mass is the largest issue iirc 18:50 < fenn> mass is one way of damping vibrations (but not the only way) 18:50 < kanzure> yes but because they are so massive all the time, it's harder to keep mills 18:50 < fenn> also, mass is easy to come by 18:51 < fenn> it's when you start building it into your machine components that it becomes annoying 18:51 < fenn> <- not a fan of the egyptian roller method 18:51 < ParahSailin_> how cheap could i build a mill suitable for plastic 18:51 < fenn> get a drill press and a $100 xy table from harbor freight 18:51 < nmz787> kanzure fenn: do you think CDROMs have fine enough pitch screws? 18:52 < nmz787> just use two CDROMs like hackteria, but with non-shitty controller? 18:52 < fenn> maybe, it would be about 1 micron per microstep with 16 microsteps 18:52 < nmz787> high microstepping, etc 18:52 < delinquentme> fenn, why dont people just use water for mass 18:53 < fenn> i don't trust microstepping 18:53 < delinquentme> or concrete blocks 18:53 < fenn> delinquentme: water isnt very dense 18:53 < nmz787> fenn: why? the rest of the industry does 18:53 < kanzure> explain why you use mass 18:53 < kanzure> it's because you are cutting steel or w/e 18:54 < fenn> because the fundamental frequency is inversely proportional to mass 18:54 < fenn> um 18:55 < kanzure> delinquentme: yes? 18:56 < fenn> also, for a given energy of resonance, the displacement is lower with more mass (because the momentum is higher) 18:56 < fenn> i'm doing a crap job explaining this 18:56 < delinquentme> ? 18:56 < delinquentme> idk whats going on kanzure 18:56 < kanzure> we're explaining why mills tend to be massive to you 18:57 < nmz787> fenn: are you talking about microstepping or mills and mass? 18:57 < fenn> i think it's past my bedtime 18:57 < nmz787> (i think mills) 18:57 < kanzure> mills/mass 18:57 < nmz787> don't you have a rotating schedule? 18:57 < fenn> yep 18:59 < kanzure> fenn: and why don't you trust microstepping? 18:59 < nmz787> kanzure fenn: only problem i could see with using CDROMs is that they probably couldn't hold the optics, but if we're only cutting a piece of silicon/teflon/acrylic coated in PDMS... it should be able to move that no prob, so the optics can be stationary 18:59 < nmz787> which actually makes it easier I think, if we had to use CO2 rather than solid state 19:00 < fenn> kanzure: the amount of force between one microstep and the next is very small. if there's friction in the system (such as from an anti backlash nut) the leadscrew just won't turn until many microsteps ahve gone by 19:01 < nmz787> i'm so sad that the glowing yogurt thread hasn't had much response since I posted the protocol of how to transform lactobacillus with linear DNA for chromosomal integration 19:01 < nmz787> fenn: thats what an encoder is for, no? 19:01 < fenn> yeah but you don't want to mix steppers and encoders 19:01 < fenn> please don't make me explain 19:01 < fenn> it's a control system mess 19:02 < audy> omg glowing yogurt 19:02 < nmz787> i've seen it 19:02 < audy> kids would go nuts over that.. glowing tube yogurt 19:02 < audy> Glogurt 19:02 < nmz787> in fact the last pump i used had it 19:02 < delinquentme> ^ 19:02 < kanzure> glogurt is already a mass marketed product -_- 19:02 < nmz787> it was built into the controller to work that way= 19:03 < kanzure> oh that's gogurt 19:03 < kanzure> nevermind 19:03 < nmz787> http://www.allmotion.com/EZHR17Description.htm 19:03 < nmz787> 256 microstepping 19:04 < nmz787> on the pump we had, we were able to calculate nanoliter change in a hanging droplet with a wvga camera 19:04 < nmz787> though that prob had less mass 19:04 < nmz787> actually 19:04 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 19:05 < nmz787> and backlash had to be compensated for, but that wasn't too hard because it was just a pump 19:06 < fenn> i dont see anything about encoders 19:06 < kanzure> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 9:03 PM, Bruce Flachsbart wrote: 19:06 < kanzure> > I don't think the oil in water system is very stable, so I doubt trying to 19:06 < kanzure> > store them would work that well. If you could charge the droplets, then 19:06 < kanzure> > that would help keep them from recombining. 19:06 < kanzure> > There is a limit to the droplet size. As the input channel gets smaller, 19:06 < kanzure> > the droplet get smaller, but the flow velocity gets smaller closer to the 19:06 < kanzure> > side wall, so this combines to sort of limit the lower end of droplet size. 19:06 < kanzure> > 19:06 < kanzure> > Sounds like an interesting problem - good luck! 19:06 < audy> kanzure I recon it'd take a while to get GFP yogurt approved by the FDA 19:07 < fenn> "optical switch" is for homing (setting origin accurately) 19:08 < nmz787> nah the pump themselves had encoder options 19:09 < nmz787> i guess we werent using that in retrospect 19:22 < fenn> this looks interesting http://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-XY-Slide-15-x-10-75-THK-Linear-Rail-w-RSR20VW-Bearing-Block-/251033050885?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a72bc5f05 19:22 < fenn> hm. "There are 2 THK bearing blocks on the unit, but one is missing all its bearings" 19:24 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parah@adsl-69-151-149-231.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:33 < fenn> i can't push to diyhpluswiki so i pushed to github instead https://github.com/fenn/diyhpluswiki 19:34 < kanzure> try pushing to diyhplus wiki now 19:34 < kanzure> diyhpluswiki 19:34 < fenn> fatal: remote error: access denied or repository not exported: /diyhpluswiki.git 19:34 < kanzure> are you pushing from gnusha 19:35 < fenn> no, why would that matter? 19:35 < kanzure> if you were logged in on gnusha you would have to re-login because of how group permissions work on linux 19:36 < kanzure> git push fenn@diyhpl.us:/srv/git/diyhpluswiki.git master 19:36 < fenn> ok that worked 19:36 < kanzure> lame 19:36 < kanzure> jrayhawk: LAME 19:36 < fenn> in .git/config origin url = git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git 19:37 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parah@adsl-69-151-149-231.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:38 * fenn wanders off 19:43 < kanzure> nmz787: this is what he committed http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/laser_etcher 19:51 < Vicarious> hi 19:54 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [] 20:00 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:01 < nmz787> cool 20:01 < nmz787> not much of a wiki to have that URL 20:04 < kanzure> huh? 20:04 < nmz787> well its just text, but the URL says wiki 20:04 < kanzure> yeah, it's a wiki.. one sec 20:04 < kanzure> https://secure.diyhpl.us/write/diyhpluswiki/ikiwiki.cgi?page=projects/laser_etcher&do=edit 20:05 < kanzure> "Error: projects/laser_etcher is not an editable page" 20:05 < kanzure> wtf is this 20:05 < kanzure> jrayhawk: whaaattt 20:06 < nmz787> chrome wont let me access it 20:06 < nmz787> "proceed anyway" does nothing 20:07 < nmz787> that might be my issue tho 20:07 < kanzure> yeah i think we disabled anonymous editing 20:07 < kanzure> i don't remember why 20:07 < kanzure> jrayhawk: why 20:07 < nmz787> btw i got these, i can email or whatever 20:07 < nmz787> http://iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/22/4/045005 20:07 < nmz787> http://m.iopscience.iop.org/0960-1317/22/4/045005 20:08 < kanzure> nmz787: let's set something else up.. one sec 20:08 < nmz787> they aren't storing in a row/single channel tho 20:12 < kanzure> nmz787: so you can use that to upload files instead of emailing 20:12 < kanzure> if you want to send files over http drop them into a folder called public_html in your home directory 20:16 < kanzure> ah so 045005 is a droplet array 20:16 < kanzure> "Emulsion droplets with desired volumes and compositions are produced, addressably stored, manipulated and retrieved from a 4 × 4 array, which employs just 4 (= 2 × log24) control inputs for the operation" 20:16 < kanzure> er, log base 2 of 4 20:17 < kanzure> anyway.. yes that paper looks useful 20:31 < nmz787> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19107293 20:32 < ParahSailin_> looks like bruce had a helpful answer 20:32 < nmz787> nice pics in this one 20:32 < nmz787> http://131.174.221.43/NCMLS/docs/Microdoplets.pdf 20:32 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: yes somewhat 20:34 < kanzure> nmz787: that ncbi one is in the folder already, 20:34 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Simple,%20robust%20storage%20of%20drops%20and%20fluids%20in%20a%20microfluidic%20device.pdf 20:34 < kanzure> i'd def. like that iop paper 20:35 < nmz787> ok okokok 20:35 < kanzure> heh 20:45 < delinquentme> the plans to prototype the chip in what software? 20:45 < kanzure> python CAD library i've been writing 20:45 < kanzure> dump to svg and gcode and other stuff 20:47 < delinquentme> fineline likes STLs 20:47 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-72-179-50-243.austin.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:47 < nmz787> isnt STL a pretty bad format? 20:47 < kanzure> yes STL is pretty bad 20:48 < kanzure> finelines would be in svg 20:48 < delinquentme> Actually STL file format is what we preferred because we quote and build from that. We can accept igs, step, prt files as well as long as they are not assembly files. 20:48 < delinquentme> ^ quote 20:49 < delinquentme> also you do realize that fluidigm is a company that just went IPO 20:49 < delinquentme> with the technology you're looking to build in 6 months 20:49 < gene_hacker> IT'S AWFUL 20:49 < gene_hacker> no really it is 20:49 < delinquentme> what is 20:49 < gene_hacker> STL 20:50 < delinquentme> how / why 20:50 < ParahSailin_> fluidigm looks neat 20:50 < delinquentme> its like a jpeg 20:50 < delinquentme> yes you're not developing with it 20:50 < delinquentme> but you're exporting it for use 20:50 < delinquentme> PSD >>> jpeg 20:50 < gene_hacker> some problems with 3d printing resolution, were solved by going directly from CAD file to slice 20:50 < nmz787> i dont see much similarity to us and fludigm 20:50 < delinquentme> im saying their technology 20:51 < delinquentme> is microfluidic prototyping 20:51 < gene_hacker> and by resolution improvement, I mean by a factor of a lot 20:51 < delinquentme> they've got machines which integrate them but their big statement is how they did micro fab differently 20:52 < delinquentme> but! 20:52 < delinquentme> if you want to build lasers 20:52 < delinquentme> build lasers / hardware 20:52 < gene_hacker> fluidigm's the microfluidic building blocks company right? 20:53 < gene_hacker> I'd assumed they'd make a whole bunch of the same blocks via photolithography 20:53 < ParahSailin_> fluidigm has some pretty good patents to rip off 20:53 < delinquentme> they do 20:53 < kanzure> there is no way they use stl for microfluidics 20:53 < gene_hacker> what do you want to do with said patents? 20:54 < kanzure> well i guess people sometimes use dxf. anyway.. i don't recommend stl. 20:54 < gene_hacker> why would you use STL for microfluidics? 20:54 < kanzure> hahah i have no clue 20:54 < gene_hacker> do you have complex 3d features? 20:54 < kanzure> nope. don't mind it 20:54 < gene_hacker> are you considering using microstereolithography to make them? 20:56 < ParahSailin_> http://www.google.com/patents/US6408878 20:57 < delinquentme> .... 20:57 < kanzure> gene_hacker: nope.. using a laser cutter 20:57 < delinquentme> like what am i supposed to say here? 20:57 < delinquentme> you're not developing with STLS 20:57 < delinquentme> you EXPORT to stl 20:57 < delinquentme> explain how thats horrible 20:57 < kanzure> nonono don't export stl 20:58 < delinquentme> ....... 20:58 < delinquentme> talk 20:58 < delinquentme> im about to put a gun to my head 20:58 < delinquentme> not really but 20:58 < kanzure> i'm actually on a phone call 20:58 < kanzure> so you are getting about 20% of my brain 20:59 < delinquentme> yeh do what u need to do there 20:59 < delinquentme> gene_hacker, you need to explain 20:59 < delinquentme> bc you're tainting his mind 20:59 < delinquentme> and theres no real substance there 20:59 < delinquentme> other than you both think the web should be displayed via PSD files 20:59 < nmz787> kanzure: dont they say you only use 10% anyway 21:00 < delinquentme> this is kanzure you're talking about 21:00 < nmz787> who uses photoshop here? 21:00 < nmz787> PSD is so closed 21:00 < nmz787> XCF in the hizouse 21:00 < delinquentme> lol 21:00 < delinquentme> like 21:00 < kanzure> i have photoshop if you need something done.. 21:00 < delinquentme> yes i support open soure 21:00 < delinquentme> source 21:00 < delinquentme> but like 21:00 < delinquentme> where is the line drawn 21:00 < kanzure> wait wait 21:00 < kanzure> stl thing first 21:00 < nmz787> i used to use photoshop a lot more, but lately im totally satisfied with gimp 21:01 < kanzure> the reason stl is not a good plan is because you need vectors to do curves with a laser cutter 21:01 < nmz787> especially after i learned of the seam carving plugin last night 21:01 < kanzure> instead of tesselations you want the actual hardware to determine the max resolution 21:01 < kanzure> (or the document will say what it's meant for) 21:01 < gene_hacker> STL is triangulated 21:01 < gene_hacker> when you make your part, you also make the triangles, 21:02 < gene_hacker> in a sense you lose resolution with STL 21:02 < delinquentme> hm 21:02 < gene_hacker> in addition, STL isn't the final machine code 21:02 < delinquentme> ok aside from the fact that a company is using stls 21:03 < delinquentme> what im after is 21:03 < delinquentme> you're building a cad software to model the parts 21:03 < delinquentme> and you're building a laser to print those parts 21:03 < delinquentme> so while its awesome that youve found kindred spirits 21:03 < gene_hacker> you convert STL to slices, it's best to convert directly to slices 21:03 < delinquentme> is that truly the most efficient way to do this 21:03 < kanzure> cad is not hard for this 21:03 < kanzure> and a laser cutter is just a chip plus a gantry.. big deal 21:04 < kanzure> oh and the laser. 21:04 < delinquentme> kanzure, you're also saying that the laser for this is simple 21:04 < kanzure> it is! 21:04 < delinquentme> listen man 21:04 < delinquentme> you know i want to believe you 21:04 < delinquentme> you fucking know that 21:04 < kanzure> anyway, we can use proprietary cad if necessary, but it doesn't matter 21:04 < gene_hacker> anyway, so why are you laser cutting microfluidic circuits? 21:04 < delinquentme> but like there is shit 21:04 < delinquentme> and there is fan 21:04 < kanzure> gene_hacker: because i don't want to wait for lithography 21:04 < delinquentme> how does we minimize distance traveled 21:04 < gene_hacker> isn't the surface roughness of laser cut parts pretty high? 21:05 < kanzure> ok sorry about that.. off the phone now 21:05 < kanzure> delinquentme: ok. so you're saying it's too much work? 21:05 < delinquentme> you dont think it is? 21:05 < kanzure> gene_hacker: that's only because most laser cutters aren't meant for micro work 21:05 < kanzure> delinquentme: no i'm ust trying to understand what you're saying first before i reply 21:05 < kanzure> *just 21:05 < delinquentme> like the open source laser cutter in ITSELF 21:05 < delinquentme> is worth a fortune 21:05 < kanzure> there are many open source laser cutters out there 21:06 < delinquentme> microfluidics laser cutter 21:06 < kanzure> when you work on a cool project you usually have to make cool tools heh' 21:06 < kanzure> like for instance.. facebook 21:06 < kanzure> "oh shit we have 800 million photos per second. nothing exists to do this yet. well. let's write some code." 21:07 < nmz787> fb wrote a php compiler basically, right? 21:07 < delinquentme> kanzure, 21:07 < kanzure> nmz787: yeah 21:07 < kanzure> (eventually) 21:07 < nmz787> bc all their code was, php 21:07 < nmz787> slooowwwww 21:07 < nmz787> making your own tools is pretty common IMO 21:07 < kanzure> it was pretty fast. they did amazing things with php. but.. bleh 21:07 < gene_hacker> ok, so can laser cutters cut with the required surface roughness for microfluidic circuits? 21:08 < delinquentme> what if! 21:08 < delinquentme> we just applied to y comb 21:08 < delinquentme> and then moved to sf 21:08 < gene_hacker> also have you looked into building a maskless microstereolithography machine? 21:08 < delinquentme> and you could get turn around on real chips 21:08 < delinquentme> in a day 21:08 < delinquentme> and could probably work out something for lowered prices 21:08 < nmz787> gene_hacker yes common laser cutters produce rought walls.... part of this is intrinsic to the lasers action, part is due to the large step size that they move with between spots 21:08 < kanzure> delinquentme: i think submitting a yc application is ok. but it's not open season at the moment? 21:08 < nmz787> y comb is more techy too 21:09 < gene_hacker> or DLP projector hooked up to a microscope, pointing at a vat of photopolymer 21:09 < delinquentme> money 21:09 < delinquentme> its the universal language 21:09 < kanzure> delinquentme: don't worry about money 21:09 < delinquentme> thats what you say 21:09 < delinquentme> what did you say about halcyon playing with electron microscopes? 21:10 < kanzure> nothing? i just thought their longevity plan wasn't well thought-out 21:10 < delinquentme> listen i want to believe right 21:10 < kanzure> believe what :) 21:10 < delinquentme> and id love just as much to put my foot in my mouth on this 21:10 < delinquentme> but like 21:10 < delinquentme> go refine the plastic 21:10 < delinquentme> diy is fun 21:10 < delinquentme> its cool 21:12 < kanzure> ok wait 21:12 < kanzure> apply to yc -> move to sf [if they accept us] 21:13 < nmz787> i also have constraints 21:13 < nmz787> i can't just pick up and leave just like that 21:13 < kanzure> yc doesn't require everyone to be there 21:13 < nmz787> i mean, if it was planned 21:13 < nmz787> and the opportunity was good enough 21:13 < kanzure> delinquentme: so.. you want me to just order chips from a foundry 21:13 < nmz787> but i think we can do this on our own 21:13 < nmz787> even if it takes 2 years to get to a good prototype 21:14 < nmz787> by then we have a laser for microfluidic rapid prototyping 21:14 < nmz787> and a dna synthesizer, and the know how to make modular microfluidics with out custom software that is designed for microfluidics 21:14 < nmz787> and in that case we own all the equity 21:28 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:28 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware http://gnusha.org/logs/ http://bit.ly/diybionews2 http://gadaprize.org/ http://groups.google.com/group/diybio 21:28 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Mon Feb 13 12:33:20 2012] 21:28 [Users ##hplusroadmap] 21:28 [ _Sketch_ ] [ epitron ] [ nathaniel ] [ strages_home] 21:28 [ _sol_ ] [ fenn ] [ nchaimov ] [ strangewarp ] 21:28 [ AdrianG ] [ ferrouswheel ] [ nmz787 ] [ superkuh ] 21:28 [ anelma ] [ folmat_ ] [ nsh ] [ Thorbinator ] 21:28 [ archels ] [ gedankenstuecke] [ nuba ] [ thylne ] 21:28 [ audy ] [ gene_hacker ] [ ParahSailin_] [ uniqanomaly ] 21:28 [ augur ] [ gnusha ] [ pasky ] [ Urchin ] 21:28 [ azonenberg ] [ Helleshin ] [ phryk ] [ Utopiah ] 21:28 [ bkero ] [ HEx1 ] [ poptire ] [ Vicarious ] 21:28 [ charlieschwabach] [ ivan` ] [ qnm ] [ vrs ] 21:28 [ CIA-92 ] [ jrayhawk ] [ rdb ] [ yashgaroth ] 21:28 [ Coornail ] [ kanzure ] [ Replop ] [ ybit ] 21:28 [ delinquentme ] [ katsmeow-afk ] [ rkos ] [ ziyadb ] 21:28 [ devrandom ] [ lichen ] [ skorket ] 21:28 [ diginet ] [ Mariu ] [ splicer ] 21:28 [ drazak ] [ Mokbortolan_ ] [ Stee| ] 21:28 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 61 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 61 normal] 21:28 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 21:28 -!- Irssi: Join to ##hplusroadmap was synced in 4 secs 21:28 < kanzure> gnusha: welcome back. 21:28 < kanzure> can someone please contribute the missing logs 21:29 < kanzure> here's what it has: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-04.log 21:37 < delinquentme> it looks like its covered kanz 21:42 < katsmeow-afk> can someone please describe a laser that will melt the ends of the copper wire as shown in http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/hsc/hsc/real_motors/large_images/DSC00079.jpg 21:43 < kanzure> not ignoring you, i just don't have anything to contribute 21:44 * katsmeow-afk nods 21:44 < kanzure> gene_hacker: maybe you'd know? 21:44 < katsmeow-afk> i have several motors with welded leads 21:45 < katsmeow-afk> with severe vibration, otehr mechanical forces, extreme temp cycling, solder won't work and bolts work loose 21:45 < katsmeow-afk> bolts may be too big or too heavy to 21:45 < katsmeow-afk> o 21:46 < katsmeow-afk> 4 April 2012 Last updated at 17:42 ; Print-your-own-robots developed in US ; Printed-on-demand robots might be a reality before the end of the decade if a US-based project achieves its goals. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17614392 21:49 < nmz787> (seriously my last post of the night 21:49 < nmz787> katsmeow: google "copper laser melt nm" 21:49 < nmz787> looks like UV 21:49 < nmz787> aka excimer 21:49 < nmz787> (excimer laser) 21:49 < nmz787> ok bed 4 realz 21:50 < katsmeow-afk> No results found for "copper laser melt nm". 21:50 < yashgaroth> About 12,300,000 results (0.40 seconds) 21:51 < katsmeow-afk> i shall goto bed, it's been day 21:52 < nmz787> not in quotes 21:53 < kanzure> doesn't count as bed if you take your phone/laptop with you 21:53 < gene_hacker> perhaps it's not a laser 21:54 < gene_hacker> that's a PCB motor right? 21:54 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:01 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-58-8-213-19.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:05 -!- amphetamine [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:13 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:18 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:18 < charlieschwabach> I think copper is pretty difficult to laser cut bcs it reflects ir and conducts heat really well 22:19 < charlieschwabach> i was trying to find something that could cut foil to make pcbs 22:19 < charlieschwabach> or just cbs i guess if they are laser cut instead of printed.. 22:19 < charlieschwabach> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general_metal_working_machines/77285-copper_laser_cutting_machine.html 22:24 < ParahSailin_> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3778958 22:29 < charlieschwabach> have you tried learning to read that? 22:31 < charlieschwabach> i would be interested to see if that alphabet actually makes you read faster 22:31 < ParahSailin_> nope looks pretty useless 22:32 < charlieschwabach> yeah the story is cool, but not sure if it would work 22:32 < charlieschwabach> i memorized all the letters last night, but still have to figure out words 22:32 -!- amphetamine [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [] 22:32 < charlieschwabach> supposedly you learn the shapes of words, but it definitely doesn't work right away 22:34 < charlieschwabach> btw i don't mean to crash you guys room.. i am a coworker of kanzure and he turned me on to your project 22:34 < charlieschwabach> very cool 22:35 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-207-0.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:35 < delinquentme> charlieschwabach, i was gonna say i thought a banker joined up earlier 22:35 < delinquentme> but iw as kinda in the middle of some hot hot heat 22:36 < charlieschwabach> haha yeah no relation 22:46 < kanzure> charlieschwabach: could you show off your webgl stuff? 22:47 < charlieschwabach> none of the cad stuff is usable at all yet 22:47 < charlieschwabach> this is kind of cool though 22:47 < charlieschwabach> https://github.com/charlieschwabacher/Walking 22:48 < charlieschwabach> it uses the THREE.js library which is really great.. easy to get 3d stuff working the browser w/o much work 22:48 < kanzure> charlieschwabach: i was trying to get glge.js to load up this model.. http://www.blendernation.com/2008/12/17/hatsune-miku-rigged-blender-character-available/ 22:49 < kanzure> surprised nobody has done it yet (the character was/is all over youtube for some reason) 22:50 < charlieschwabach> i haven't looked at glge before.. looks cool though 22:50 < charlieschwabach> if you can get the model into .obj, you should be able to get it into THREE 22:51 < kanzure> oh three does .obj? 22:51 < charlieschwabach> https://github.com/mrdoob/three.js/blob/master/utils/exporters/obj/convert_obj_three.py 22:52 < charlieschwabach> the cad i am working on just imports / exports STL and does csg operations 22:52 < charlieschwabach> i know you guys were knocking STL, but it is a txt format and works well for reprap 22:52 < kanzure> what are the framesteps in .obj? i forget if this format supports animations 22:53 < charlieschwabach> I think it does 22:53 < charlieschwabach> not sure if the converter will support it though 22:53 < kanzure> neato. 22:54 < charlieschwabach> what is the cad you are working on? 22:54 < charlieschwabach> can you get away w/ 2d for microfluidics? 22:54 < kanzure> it's all over the place.. http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad has some notes/samples/stuff 22:55 < kanzure> for microfluidics i am trying out f-rep.. basically using piecewise inequalities and then oct-trees to resolve a picture for rendering 22:55 < kanzure> lolcad is my nurbs-related cad work 22:55 < kanzure> none of it is very mature 22:56 < charlieschwabach> ahh cool 22:58 < kanzure> f-rep overview http://cba.mit.edu/events/07.08.fab/McCarthy.odp 22:59 < charlieschwabach> what reads odp on a mac? 22:59 < kanzure> openoffice.. or google docs 22:59 < charlieschwabach> awesome :) 23:02 < charlieschwabach> so google is failing me.. f-rep seems straightforward though 23:02 < charlieschwabach> just functions for the lines 23:02 < charlieschwabach> ? 23:03 < kanzure> functions that define the surfaces 23:03 < kanzure> circle is (X+x)**2 + (Y+y)**2 <= r**2 23:03 < kanzure> stuff like that 23:03 < charlieschwabach> is there z? 23:03 < kanzure> optional. but yes. 23:04 < charlieschwabach> cool, yeah that makes a lot of sense 23:04 < charlieschwabach> and has infinite resolution 23:04 < kanzure> nurbs sorta has this resolution too but .. then i need to write all that nurbs math for lolcad 23:04 < kanzure> and apparently people get PhDs for that? 23:05 < charlieschwabach> haha 23:05 < charlieschwabach> yeah eyes on the prize 23:05 < kanzure> if you're into haskell.. this is sorta similar https://github.com/colah/ImplicitCAD 23:06 < kanzure> and http://shapesmith.net/ is worth knowing about 23:06 < kanzure> (he just communicates with opencascade on his servers and sends everything via json to render with webgl) 23:07 < charlieschwabach> ahh, cool 23:08 < charlieschwabach> shape smith looks awesome 23:08 < charlieschwabach> this is what i am basing my csg from: 23:08 < charlieschwabach> http://evanw.github.com/csg.js/ 23:09 < charlieschwabach> just writing it from scratch to work w/ three instead of lightgl 23:10 < kanzure> iirc openjscad was some extra stuff on top of csg.js 23:10 < kanzure> http://joostn.github.com/OpenJsCad/ 23:11 < kanzure> oh neat.. never saw that 'servo motor demo' before 23:11 < kanzure> http://joostn.github.com/OpenJsCad/servodemo.html 23:11 < kanzure> or http://joostn.github.com/OpenJsCad/gearsdemo.html 23:12 < charlieschwabach> oh awesome! 23:12 < charlieschwabach> maybe i don't even need to write mine 23:12 < charlieschwabach> although it is ~75% for fun so probably still will 23:12 < kanzure> i think openjscad still uses lightgl anyway 23:14 < charlieschwabach> i want to build these tables, which are a cloud of points joined to each other by various algorithms and then supporting a tabletop 23:14 < charlieschwabach> and 3d print the joins and use aluminum tubing 23:14 < charlieschwabach> so i want it to programatically generate the stl files to print 23:15 < charlieschwabach> and then do assembly instructions w/ webgl 23:16 < kanzure> ironically i was working in a lab where someone was working on (dis)assembly instructions 23:16 < kanzure> wrong way.. 23:16 < charlieschwabach> haha 23:16 < delinquentme> i like the walking robot 23:17 < charlieschwabach> thanks, yeah i wanted to build one and thought would be cool to make a simulator first 23:17 < delinquentme> you could sell processing power on someones computer while they browse something like NYT 23:17 < charlieschwabach> a little like building a laser cutter to synthesize dna ;) 23:17 < delinquentme> monetize news papers and other sit and browse type website 23:18 < charlieschwabach> i think there is a bit coin mining thing in js 23:18 < kanzure> charlieschwabach: also.. i host some fringe cad. 23:18 < kanzure> http://nanoengineer-1.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=50 23:18 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/nanoengineer 23:22 < charlieschwabach> very cool! 23:22 < charlieschwabach> imagine if we could actually build that planetary gear :) 23:22 < charlieschwabach> alright, i am out for the night 23:22 < kanzure> seeya. 23:22 < charlieschwabach> see you 23:28 < Stee|> hmm, may start becoming a reviewer at TechCast 23:39 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-72-179-50-243.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] --- Log closed Thu Apr 05 00:00:22 2012