--- Log opened Tue Apr 10 00:00:29 2012 00:09 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09 < diginet> wow, yeast nutrients are super cheap 00:17 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:23 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:23 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-58-8-178-253.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:29 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:33 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Quit: the neuronal action potential is an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt phase changes in the lipid bilayer] 00:34 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@2607:f358:1:fed5:22:0:57a0:e6de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:34 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@2607:f358:1:fed5:22:0:57a0:e6de] has quit [Changing host] 00:34 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:34 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:40 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:42 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:34 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:36 -!- cory_tobin [cory.tobin@71-92-71-97.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:44 < diginet> could I use those protein powders they make for body builders for my nutrient broth? 01:46 < yashgaroth> maybe 01:47 * yashgaroth sleeps 01:47 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:47 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:48 < diginet> NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SLEEP 01:48 < diginet> :( 01:48 -!- qnm [~qnm@2001:44b8:3110:f300:208:9bff:fec0:179a] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:55 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:55 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:55 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:57 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-58-8-178-253.revip2.asianet.co.th] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:00 -!- strages_shop [~strages@adsl-98-81-13-133.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:11 -!- juul [~juul@208.87.217.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:14 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:18 < Utopiah> http://www.cyborgology.org/theorizingtheweb/2012/ 02:29 -!- strages_shop [~strages@adsl-98-81-13-133.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:40 < diginet> oh guess what everyone: I thought of a cool new name for my spider silk fiber thing: Serylar 02:40 < diginet> thoughts? 02:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@p5B13B787.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@p5B13B787.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:56 < strangewarp> diginet: Sounds decent enough. Now make some :P 02:56 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:56 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:09 < delinquentme> herk derk merpa derr 03:12 < diginet> strangewarp, I'm working on that! lol 03:48 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:49 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:02 -!- capiscuas_ [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-238-165.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:03 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-58-8-178-253.revip2.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:08 -!- capiscuas_ [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-238-165.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:09 -!- capiscuas_ [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-238-165.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:19 -!- capiscuas_ [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-238-165.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:21 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-92-251-38.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:32 -!- capiscuas_ [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-255-247.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:41 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:48 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [] 04:58 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:59 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:03 -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@dsl092-168-049.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:39 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:39 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:50 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:20 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:32 -!- skorket [~skorket@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:41 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:43 < kanzure> boop 06:45 < phryk> kanzure: I'mma boop your head now. 06:45 * phryk boops kanzure on the head. 06:45 < phryk> \o/ 06:48 < kanzure> hello phryk 06:49 < _Sketch_> boop 06:49 < phryk> ^_^ 06:50 < phryk> kanzure: You didn't by chance play around with the thought of custom-made functional clothing, did you? 06:50 < kanzure> i played around with the thought of no clothing, but it didn't go anywhere 06:51 < _Sketch_> Functional clothing? 06:53 < phryk> _Sketch_: Clothing with more function that just to make you not-naked :P 06:53 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-23-160-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 06:55 < phryk> I may start a little project to do something like an 'urban armor', a roughly stitched robust set of clothing with some strengthened areas (maybe using cordura) and if possible some kind of modular system to have little gadgets on it (changeable pockets, possibilites to attach various other stuff) 06:56 < phryk> I've pondered the thought for well over 2 years now and think I should finally implement something. 07:03 -!- F71 [~Adium@safekick-americas-2.consolidated.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:06 < _Sketch_> Sounds awesome. 07:07 < phryk> Yeah, sounds awesome, but let's see how far I can go with it, since my motor skills and my general motivation suck :P 07:07 < phryk> I'll be asking one of my roommates a whole bunch of dumb questions this evening, hoping it'll make planning easier :P 07:12 < archels> Will it have integrated heating/cooling? 07:12 < archels> If so, I'll take one... 07:13 < phryk> archels: I do have to research what materials to use. 07:14 < phryk> There are nice breathing materials out there. Have to evaluate what is possible. 07:14 < phryk> But it won't have electrical heating. 07:14 < archels> :( 07:14 < archels> I think a practical heating, and perhaps even cooling system, is totally feasible now with battery energy densities. 07:15 < phryk> I want the 'armor' itself to be completely without electronics. But the 'plug-in' thing I want might enable that in the future. However up to now I've just had a few thoughts and yet have to do any real planning and implementations. 07:15 < _Sketch_> What is the best battery energy density, anyway? Can I make a portable electrolaser yet? ;) 07:15 < phryk> archels: Materials that breathe well could handle that problem without need for batteries. 07:16 < archels> Breating doesn't cut it for me when it's 30C out and as damp as the bottom of the ocean. 07:17 < phryk> true that. but if i ever get to build a full system, it should be multilayered with multiple plug-in possibilities, so you ought to be able to place something to cool you down in there :P 07:18 < phryk> however I won't manufacture it, it'll be openly released so you can build/sew your own though :P 07:21 < archels> If you want a system like that, it'll have to be integrated into the clothing, e.g. a tube carrying water spiralling around, and perhaps a number of batteries distributed across so as to spread out the weight. 07:21 < archels> So no summer cooling system plug-in/on. :( 07:22 < phryk> archels: of course you can. 07:22 < phryk> you can build the cooling system as one piece with the tubes and everything and just snap it in the clothing as innermost layer. 07:23 < archels> I doubt that'll work very well, in terms of comfort, strength (will come undone) and function. 07:23 < phryk> you now like you have some winter jackets where you can take that fluffy thing out. 07:24 < phryk> I think 'lining' is the correct word. 07:25 < archels> fluffly lining seems quite a distance removed from an advanced active cooling system. :) 07:26 < phryk> I just meant the way it is fastened to the jacket :P 07:26 < phryk> but tbh i want to avoid zippers if possible. 07:26 < archels> sounds wise. velcro? 07:27 < phryk> if you need to change a zipper it's practically a death sentence for the whole thing… 07:27 < phryk> nah, velcro looses strength over time. 07:27 < archels> aha 07:28 < phryk> I don't know the word of what I want to use. 07:28 < phryk> basically the same principle as most shoes use. You have a sort of yarn that you fasten through a few wholes. 07:28 < phryk> If the metal things holding open the hole are robust enough, that is practically indestructible. 07:29 < phryk> I'd also sew around them so that if one get's lost it doesn't mean the fabric will 'dissolve'. 07:31 < phryk> hard to explain it all when I don't even know the right words in my first language… 07:31 < archels> laced, sure 07:32 < phryk> yeah. 07:32 < phryk> if one of the laces rips, no problem, very easy to replace. 07:34 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:35 < phryk> I basically want to build the sort of clothing that I could wear if we had a zombie apocalypse. 07:36 < phryk> practical, robust, resilient, easy to maintain. 07:37 < phryk> and there is my first plug-in project: being able to attach a machety to my back :D 07:38 < phryk> machate* 07:38 < archels> heh, heh 07:39 < ParahSailin__> dont use cotton 07:39 < ParahSailin__> cotton kills 07:41 < phryk> ParahSailin__: why? 07:42 < phryk> Was thinking about using only synthetic textilia btw. 07:42 < phryk> afaik there is a whole range of cordura products, just have no clue if they are any good. 07:46 -!- Replop [~Gwen@ASte-Genev-Bois-154-1-104-241.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:50 < ParahSailin__> cotton gets wet, you get cold 07:50 < ParahSailin__> and heavy 07:53 < phryk> Yup. 07:53 < phryk> The outside should be somewhat water repellent. 07:54 < phryk> I think my first try for the upper part will be cotton though, mostly because it's cheap and I have no practical experience with sewing. 07:55 < phryk> I guess I'll have to do a cotton prototype first for just about everything in order to find out how to properly shape it so it sits comfortable and allows the needed range of movement. 07:57 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:59 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:03 -!- capiscuas_ [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-255-247.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:03 < ParahSailin__> i have a preference for wool because if theres a fire wool will not fuse to your skin 08:03 < phryk> I hate wool because it's itchy :P 08:04 < ParahSailin__> thats coarse yarn 08:04 < phryk> but the clothing melting onto my skin isn't a nice thought, either :D 08:04 < ParahSailin__> a nice weave of wool shouldnt be itchy 08:06 < phryk> mhh wool sounds nice (reading wikipedia) 08:06 < phryk> thermoregulative, somewhat water-repellent… 08:07 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:20 -!- charlieschwabach [~charliesc@c-24-118-140-185.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:32 -!- cory_tobin [cory.tobin@71-92-71-97.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:38 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:41 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.255.233.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:41 -!- charlieschwabach [~charliesc@c-24-118-140-185.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:55 < delinquentme> <3 08:55 < delinquentme> LUV U GAIZ 08:55 < delinquentme> yes even u kanzure ! 08:57 -!- charlieschwabach [~charliesc@c-24-118-140-185.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 < Vicarious> hi 09:02 < delinquentme> you too Vicarious 09:03 < Vicarious> *hug* 09:05 < Vicarious> how are you? 09:07 < delinquentme> doing well got back from the gym 09:07 < delinquentme> ate healthy food 09:07 < delinquentme> about to get some more ice black coffee 09:07 < Vicarious> awesome 09:21 -!- cory_tobin [cory.tobin@71-92-71-97.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:22 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:24 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 < F71> okay, caught up 09:32 < F71> Phryk, consider scotchguard 09:32 < F71> also, based on your description (laced) it sounds like you're reinventing the tactical corset 09:34 -!- cory_tobin [~cory.tobi@BeaverNet-166.caltech.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:35 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:35 < kanzure> cory_tobin: hi 09:35 < F71> fenn I just got my 430EZ, too. I have really tiny arms that go all the way to the last buckle-hole, and it's smaller than a lot of 'smart' watches I've looked at. 09:36 < F71> The altimeter really impresses me, it has resolution better than a foot, somehow. I've been testing it on a 200 ft ladder. 09:36 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:37 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 09:38 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:39 -!- cory_tobin [~cory.tobi@BeaverNet-166.caltech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:40 < delinquentme> F71, you have a 200 foot ladder...? 09:40 < delinquentme> and tactical corsets ! nom 09:40 < F71> In my bag of holding 09:40 < F71> Nah, there's an abandoned building with a ladder in the elevator shaft, right by my house 09:41 < F71> http://www.tacticalcorsets.com/ 09:41 < F71> highly modular. IIRC they came out of noisebridge. 09:45 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:51 < delinquentme> haha 09:51 < delinquentme> F71, so I think i found myself a sensor @ usdigital 09:51 < delinquentme> not the cheapest .. but hey! 09:52 < F71> which one? 09:54 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59 < delinquentme> http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/em1 10:00 < delinquentme> these guys ... now i just gotta see about mounting for that and the strip 10:01 < roksprok_> what are you making? 10:01 < kanzure> dooms day device 10:02 < delinquentme> roksprok, its just a hyper compact linear accelerated fusion lance 10:02 < roksprok_> laser cutter? 10:02 < delinquentme> just you know to lance through 5' concrete walls 10:02 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:02 < delinquentme> also! http://www.robots.com/kuka 10:02 < delinquentme> pretty 10:02 < roksprok_> why...do you see needing that? 10:03 < roksprok_> should i be stocking my bomb shelter? 10:04 < delinquentme> no you should buy one from me! 10:04 < roksprok_> is this to make sure the quest for transhumanism goes on after the zombies come 10:05 < roksprok_> yay existential risk reduction 10:05 < kanzure> delinquentme: if you like KUKA.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGCiJvKaZtQ 10:05 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [] 10:08 < delinquentme> GOD they're beautiful no? 10:09 < kanzure> it was on my playlist :x http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=FL1sapBsRQ1__rgp7qWs0cow&feature=mh_lolz 10:10 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:11 < delinquentme> kanz I cant help but think that I need more exposure inside the automation world 10:11 < delinquentme> as of this morning I've come to realize something about academia 10:12 < kanzure> you've finally realized that academia sucks? 10:12 < delinquentme> I really should not be working with them. 10:12 < kanzure> automation exposure: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0EB93E6E02E5CF17&feature=plcp 10:13 < delinquentme> I think they're always going to have sufficient grad students to throw at stupid problems .. and they're simply not properly incentivized to improve 10:13 < delinquentme> SO I need to just talk with tons of people in private industry 10:14 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:19 < delinquentme> friction welding is awesome 10:20 < archels> delinquentme, re that sensor, virtually any old inkjet printer will contain that, and an encoder strip. 10:21 < delinquentme> haha yeah 10:26 < delinquentme> i want more KUKA robot assembly videos 10:26 < delinquentme> i wanna see the GUTS 10:26 < phryk> F71: i don't only want a corset. I want the whole clothing set to be like that. 10:27 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:29 < delinquentme> phryk, you building corsets? 10:29 < delinquentme> i mean clothing for post apoc? 10:31 < phryk> I'm planning to, but no corsets :P 10:36 -!- _sol_ [Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:37 < kanzure> this csv file has a random newline in one of its columns :( 10:37 < archels> might be within spec 10:37 < archels> something about quotes? 10:55 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:14 < _Sketch_> I believe newlines are within spec. 11:15 < _Sketch_> so long as they're in quotes, yes. 11:15 < _Sketch_> .csv files have very few rules. 11:17 < katsmeow-afk> something odd about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGCiJvKaZtQ ,,,, there's a human painting the robots 11:23 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:24 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:24 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:24 < kanzure> _Sketch_: except there are two types of lines in this file, too 11:27 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:39 < kanzure> "I actually saw Thad in school walking around with his "glass". The Google version looks way better and a lot less geekier (and less creepier) than the thing he used to wear to say the least." 11:39 < kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3822417 11:39 < kanzure> increase creepiness! 11:52 -!- Replop [~Gwen@ASte-Genev-Bois-154-1-104-241.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:04 < F71> phryk, I've got these 5.11 pants. 12:04 < F71> I got them on sale, they're way overbuilt and covered in pockets. 12:05 -!- Replop [~Gwen@ASte-Genev-Bois-154-1-104-241.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:05 < F71> Extra layers of fabric in the areas that wear, triple seams, and fancy fabric that's breathy and strong 12:06 < F71> There's an internal pocket that I took advantage of, the pair I'm wearing right now has internal kneepads that I made from neoprene 12:07 < F71> Neither the wearer nor an observer would know they were installed, they shift into place from the thigh to the knee when the knees bend 12:08 < F71> I can jump and land knee-first onto concrete, and it feels to me as if I were doing it onto a foam mattress 12:09 < F71> It really opens up the ability to comfortably get around on one's knees, especially for an extended period of time 12:20 < delinquentme> .... 12:20 < delinquentme> ahem? 12:21 < delinquentme> F71, what kind of work do you do again? 12:22 < delinquentme> Also if you need to sneak things around normal hanes underwear have a hidden compartment between the seams 12:22 < delinquentme> ( boxer briefs ) 12:27 <@fenn> omg matcha is way stronger than regular green tea 12:27 <@fenn> i might have overdone it 12:28 < diginet> what are we even talking about!?!? 12:29 * kanzure pokes fenn 12:30 <@fenn> ow 12:30 < delinquentme> umm 12:30 < delinquentme> wait. 12:30 < delinquentme> WTH 12:30 < delinquentme> kanzure, 12:30 < delinquentme> QUICK 12:30 < delinquentme> ideaz 12:31 < delinquentme> ruby .. built on a C core... ja? so although python is the sci standard 12:31 < diginet> Python? the Sci standard? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo! 12:31 < delinquentme> are there advantages of a Ruby and C combination when we're talking about flashing chips? 12:31 < diginet> LISP IS THE ONE TRUE LANGUAGE 12:31 < delinquentme> ONE LANGUAGE TO RULE THEM BALL 12:32 < F71> I work in software QA, but I can think of multiple lines of work that hidden kneepads would come in handy for. 12:33 < diginet> ONE LANGUAGE TO FIND THEM, ONE LANGUAGE TO BRING THEM ALL AND IN THE DARKNESS BIND THEM 12:33 < F71> Like server maintenance, plumbing, law enforcement, and the sexual industry. 12:33 < kanzure> diginet: please, just stop the trolling :( 12:33 -!- augur_ [~augur@206.196.184.83] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:33 < kanzure> scipy is really quite useful. numpy too. 12:33 * diginet has gone from intrigued to disgusted 12:33 < katsmeow-afk> roofing, flooring, auto repair 12:33 < diginet> kanzure, I'm really not trying to troll :( 12:34 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:34 < delinquentme> but i was serious about the hidden pocket in hanes mens boxer briefs 12:34 < katsmeow-afk> F71, honest thanks for pointing out the 5.11 pants 12:34 < delinquentme> they're close enough to the nuts that no one questions it 12:34 < F71> That's so you can pull your junk through the seam 12:34 < diginet> speaking of underwear, what is the point of the flap that I presume is to be used to urinate? does ANYONE actually use that? 12:34 < kanzure> F71: to be fair, it doesn't come with an instruction manual ;) 12:34 < diginet> That CAN'T be comfortable 12:35 -!- AdrianG [amphetamin@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:35 < katsmeow-afk> i don't 12:35 < F71> More modern breifs have the pass-through oriented 90 degrees to the norm, which makes them more comfortable 12:35 < kanzure> delinquentme: what did you need ideas for? sorry, i don't understand 12:36 < F71> Personally, I don't wear anything under the pants since the kneepads are already built in. 12:36 < delinquentme> ruby on C core .. C Core goes on MCs 12:36 < delinquentme> is there magic somewhere there 12:36 < diginet> you know what language I oddly love? Postscript. It's really underrated as a usable language, rather than just something to be generated 12:36 < F71> Ruby on MCs? Color me interested. 12:37 < diginet> what are 5.11 pants? 5 speakers and two subwoofers? 12:37 < kanzure> what's wrong with just writing C? 12:37 < diginet> or asm? 12:37 < kanzure> yes 12:37 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:37 < kanzure> but in general, people tend to write C when their chip allows it 12:38 < kanzure> er, when their chip is a valid target platfrom 12:38 <@fenn> hmm kuka has humans spray-painting robots? that sounds wrong 12:38 < kanzure> platform.. 12:38 <@fenn> i wonder if fanuc has a patent on "robots making robots" 12:38 < diginet> Yeah, some asm's are kind of yucky, if its something with a nice architecture, like m68k then I like to do asm, ARM? no way 12:38 < F71> They're 'tactical' pants. They ring well with the law enforcement community but they look to presentable for the zed-hunting mouthbreather crowd. 12:38 < kanzure> fenn: it's probably just an end effector 12:38 < diginet> what's zed-hunting? 12:39 < kanzure> diginet: personally, i really enjoy z80 asm. 12:39 < Urchin> what pants? 12:39 < kanzure> there's no such thing as multiplication but it still manages 12:39 < katsmeow-afk> i dunno zeds or mouthbreathers, but i tend to wear out pants quickly for whatever reason, these seem tough 12:39 < kanzure> all my z80 work is here: http://bitbucket.org/iimarckus/pokered/src 12:39 * HEx1 wonders idly what's wrong with ARM assembly 12:39 < F71> They guys that own more guns than they have teeth, and they're all loaded down with 'tactical' stuff to help them in the zombie apocalypse. 12:39 < kanzure> HEx1: hello, long time no talk.. 12:39 < Urchin> lol 12:40 < diginet> any RISC asm is a nightmare IMO, since they weren't really designed to be programmed in assembler (that's the whole point of RISC) 12:40 < HEx1> it was certainly nice back in the day. it's possible they've fucked it up more recently with Thumb and whatever other crap they've stuffed in in the past two decades 12:40 < diginet> lol, Jazelle 12:40 < Urchin> some of the gun people on this network are into that whole zombie thing 12:40 < F71> they differ from survivalists in that their 'bug out bag' consists primarily of an igloo cooler full of beer and steak coupled with a duffel full of camo duct tape and handheld gaming systems 12:40 < Urchin> but not by much 12:41 < F71> so basically, frat-fucks that spend too much money through Cheaper than Dirt 12:41 < kanzure> fenn: status update? 12:41 < katsmeow-afk> wear only cammo clothes? 12:41 < diginet> Jazelle, for those unaware, was an abomination of an extended ISA for ARM which was supposed to provide hardware-level acceleration for Java, but actually ended up making things run slower 12:42 < diginet> my favourite assembler would have to be VAX, it had a freaking instruction to evaluate polynomials 12:42 < F71> I meet a lot of them when I get away from the developed parts of texas 12:42 < HEx1> (hi kanzure) 12:42 < F71> so I've got a bit of beef 12:42 < diginet> F71, like my Uncle? lol 12:42 < F71> haha, don't think I know him 12:42 < diginet> I know, I was kidding 12:42 -!- cory_tobin [cory.tobin@DHCP-52-143.caltech.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:43 < kanzure> cory_tobin: hey. 12:43 < HEx1> diginet: don't forget the part where they not only didn't document it but claimed that merely including the opcodes in your program was illegal without a license 12:43 < kanzure> cory_tobin: what has the LA group been up to? 12:43 < diginet> He literally things the army is going to march on his little compound, I mean house. First of all: that is retarded, why would they attack him? But more importantly, does he really think he could WIN? I mean, even if he killed off a few of the soldiers, it's not like they're going to pack up and leave. No, they'll do the same to him what they did to Waco 12:43 < diginet> *thinks 12:44 < F71> If one of his primary concerns is getting power for his Xbox when SHTF, then he might be a zed-hunting mouthbreather. 12:44 < diginet> HEx1: how can one forget? Aww DEC, how I will miss you! *tear* 12:44 < Urchin> diginet: and it would be marines, not army 12:44 < diginet> Urchin, right right 12:44 < HEx1> diginet: not DEC, ARM. (DEC was kinda before my time) 12:44 < diginet> ohh, right 12:45 < diginet> DEC was before my time too (I'm only 18) but I love them 12:45 < diginet> ARM, as a company, is evil 12:45 < diginet> gawd I hate them 12:45 < F71> They license their designs. What's evil? 12:45 < diginet> anyone interested in OHW should hate them too 12:45 < kanzure> diginet: why not just use something from opencores.org? 12:45 < HEx1> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazelle#Instruction_set) 12:45 < diginet> because they basically told the opencore folks that they would try to sue them if they made anything comparable to ARM 12:46 < F71> Are there people manufacturing opencore processors comparable in price and power to ARM? 12:46 < F71> oh wtf 12:46 < HEx1> diginet: only ARMv4 or above; there are Free ARMv2 cores 12:46 < kanzure> F71: all i know is what qi hardware has been up to 12:46 < kanzure> i forget if they did a processor or not 12:46 < diginet> No, they couldn't possibly, but ARM still said it the same 12:46 < diginet> HEx1: yeah 12:46 < katsmeow-afk> considering ARM makes 8080/8051 family cpus, can they sue for cloning those? 12:46 < diginet> no, because the patents are expired 12:47 < diginet> and Intel owned them anyway 12:47 < kanzure> you can still sue even with expired patents.. 12:47 < katsmeow-afk> ah 12:47 < diginet> how? 12:47 < kanzure> you can sue for anything 12:47 < kanzure> litigation is costly enough to crush your opponents 12:47 < diginet> sue succesfully 12:47 < diginet> true 12:47 < Urchin> you don't need a reason to sue, you need a lawyer 12:47 < diginet> yep 12:47 < diginet> well, anyhow, ARM is evil scum 12:48 < kanzure> "Austin couple sues over expired patent labeling" http://www.statesman.com/news/local/austin-couple-find-a-nut-worth-cracking-in-1269990.html 12:48 < kanzure> (not quite the same) 12:48 < diginet> IP companies are bleh 12:48 < kanzure> diginet: focus 12:48 < diginet> kanzure, sorry 12:48 < diginet> I will try harder 12:49 < kanzure> unless you have an actual plan for toppling patent trolls 12:49 < diginet> good point 12:49 < kanzure> in which case.. we'd definitely like to hear it. 12:49 < diginet> VIVA LA REVOLUCION 12:49 < diginet> no but seriously 12:49 < diginet> I don't, but I wish I did 12:50 <@fenn> woah 12:50 < diginet> okay guys question: how would I store/preserve my strain of transfected yeast for future batches, so I don't have to keep redoing the transformation process? 12:50 <@fenn> "a federal law that allows any person to sue on behalf of the U.S. government — and collect damages — to enforce false patent marking." 12:50 < diginet> here's a fun fact 12:50 <@fenn> let's go patent troll hunting! 12:50 < diginet> did you know blasphemy is still illegal in many states? 12:50 < diginet> (or have I said this already?) 12:50 < HEx1> so long as fabs are so expensive I figure patents on CPU designs are the least of anyone's worries 12:50 < kanzure> fenn: yep.. also, on a related note, you get more protection with a "patent pending" label, rather than a "patented by patent#" label, for some reason 12:50 < Urchin> there is a classic way of escaping the reach of patent holders, go where they can't physically reach you 12:50 < kanzure> HEx1: azonenberg (in here) has been doing home cmos fabrication 12:51 < kanzure> HEx1: so.. i don't think yo're right 12:51 < diginet> literally? 12:51 < Urchin> literally 12:51 < diginet> what resolution? 12:51 < kanzure> diginet: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos 12:51 < diginet> Jeri Ellsworth did some DIY transistors, but they were NMOS 12:51 < diginet> I've seen that 12:51 < kanzure> this is not jeri 12:51 < diginet> I know 12:51 < diginet> I'm just saying, there is precedent 12:51 < kanzure> there's pre-jeri precedent too.. 12:52 < diginet> anyway, okay guys question: how would I store/preserve my strain of transfected yeast for future batches, so I don't have to keep redoing the transformation procedure? 12:52 < kanzure> probably in a freezer 12:52 < F71> There's a Citizen Science Quarterly article on getting pure yeast 12:53 < F71> Cathal Wrote it IIRC 12:53 < HEx1> kanzure: interesting 12:53 < diginet> well, how cold are we talking? 12:53 < diginet> according to the literature, a consumer-grade freezer could store them for a few months at the most 12:53 < kanzure> HEx1: did you see the recent SNES decapitations? 12:54 < HEx1> kanzure: no 12:54 < kanzure> HEx1: "Thankfully, Lord Nightmare from the MAME/MESS project was in contact with a savant named Dr. Decapitator, with the necessary knowledge and hardware to make this possible. Even better, he was willing to do it just for the cost of the donor cartridges and supplies. This worked out to $250 per coprocessor." 12:54 < kanzure> HEx1: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3675123 12:54 < kanzure> HEx1: http://byuu.org/articles/emulation/snes-coprocessors 12:54 < kanzure> HEx1: http://byuu.org/articles/emulation/decap 12:54 < kanzure> thought you might enjoy that. 12:54 < HEx1> oh, this is another visual-6502-type project? 12:54 < kanzure> this is "make SNES fully emulatable finally" 12:55 < diginet> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEWAR-FLASK-glass-aluminum-outer-covering-/110857025976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf97f9b8 12:55 < diginet> look at that! a dewar, for $30, and in Houston! 12:55 < HEx1> that's the end, not the means. the means is "get a transistor-level description of the chip" 12:56 < kanzure> true that. 12:56 -!- AdrianG [amphetamin@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [] 12:56 < diginet> there's software which can analyze pictures of the chip mask and output a netlist 12:57 < diginet> no idea how accurate it is, but we should try and replicate that 12:57 < kanzure> open source? 12:57 < diginet> yeah 12:57 < diginet> oh 12:57 < kanzure> also: do you mean mask or do you mean microscope image of a decapitated chip 12:57 < diginet> no, it's veyr proprietary 12:57 < diginet> the latter 12:58 < diginet> I meant our version should be open source 12:58 < kanzure> i think that's doable. get me some sample images and i will stare at them for a bit. 12:58 < katsmeow-afk> someone did a photomicrograph of the 6502, a transistor layout of it, a sim of it operating, and a lot of other useless stuff in great colorful detail 12:59 <@fenn> visual6502.org has the right sort of images 12:59 < katsmeow-afk> yeas, them 12:59 < kanzure> i'm p. sure they already have their netlist 12:59 < diginet> that site is awesome 12:59 < diginet> but yeah, it's definitely doable for older designs 12:59 < katsmeow-afk> afaik, there's opencores of 6502 also 12:59 * HEx1 wonders at what point FPGAs will enter into this discussion 12:59 < katsmeow-afk> in fpgas 12:59 < diginet> FPGAs are cool 12:59 < diginet> but 13:00 < kanzure> HEx1: that discussion was last week, you're late 13:00 < diginet> slow, expensive, and power hungry 13:00 < kanzure> we're going backwards 13:00 < HEx1> gah *backlog* 13:00 < diginet> severly limiting their application 13:01 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:02 < kanzure> i want to see visual6502 paired with http://people.csail.mit.edu/pgbovine/python/tutor.html#mode=edit 13:03 <@fenn> i want to see an automated backlog summarizer 13:04 < kanzure> i think we call this a person 13:04 < diginet> I have another question: are there lids one can buy for dewars which allow for the venting of evaporated gas? 13:05 < kanzure> diginet: are you writing these things down somewhere? and if so, are you going to share your notes 13:05 < diginet> what things exactly? what you're telling me? Yes, and yes 13:05 < diginet> err, by "you" I mean the channel collectively 13:06 < diginet> I don't have much of interest to share yet, but as soon as I have the materials to begin the procedure I will make detailed notes, and tape anything I do lest I forget something 13:07 < ParahSailin__> dewars are never made gas tight 13:07 < ParahSailin__> they have styrofoam lids 13:07 < delinquentme> is there an existing lib that opens PDfs and scrapes the reference information? 13:08 < delinquentme> like thats a solid place to start with determining impact of a paper... 13:08 < kanzure> delinquentme: nope. there's some propreitary tools look mendeley but you would have to spend some time with IDA Pro. 13:08 < kanzure> you could try using tesseract but it never worked for me 13:09 < diginet> ParahSailin__, the one I'm looking at on eBay looks like it has a glass lid 13:09 < kanzure> tesseract results (2008): http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-24-autoscholar-OCR-notgood.png 13:10 < kanzure> hmm, it occurs to me that you could probably make an improved citation OCR system based on having a known set of journals/abbreviations 13:10 < katsmeow-afk> that's ugly 13:10 < kanzure> then you can do OCR on the "S. Appkkld Phsssyys" and do a match and get "S. Applied Phys." 13:10 < kanzure> well there's a known set of journals (more or less) 13:10 < HEx1> wow, OCR is that bad? 13:10 < katsmeow-afk> i did that with simple dictionary lookup 13:10 < F71> an airtight dewar is a cryogen bomb 13:11 < delinquentme> kanzure, right now im only interested in those encoded as actual text 13:11 < kanzure> HEx1: proprietary ocr can be better.. i think i just suck at configuring tesseract 13:11 < kanzure> delinquentme: try pdftk 13:11 < delinquentme> that is really awful OCR 13:11 < diginet> F71: I know, that's why I'm scared of getting one if I'm not positive that it is safe for my purposes 13:11 < diginet> but gaiz! OCR is proof we're in the singyoolareeteee 13:11 < diginet> Kurtzwile said so! 13:11 < kanzure> you should never ever rely on OCR 13:12 < F71> Most of the vaccum dewars are going to be faulted, which means they won't work well 13:12 < HEx1> when did journal pdfs start containing actual text, or at least text overlays? 13:12 < F71> Most of them can't take a light knock 13:12 < F71> like plopping it off of a dolly 13:12 < kanzure> HEx1: depends on the publisher 13:13 < kanzure> HEx1: some papers back to the 90s were in ps, pdf, djvu with no images 13:13 < diginet> I miss ps 13:13 < F71> Y'all looking for houston area cryo? 13:13 < diginet> ps>PDF 13:13 < diginet> F71, I am! *raises hand* 13:13 < kanzure> F71: diginet wanted to come by txrx with you and ParahSailin__ 13:13 < F71> Sure thing. 13:14 < F71> The biolab, unfortunately, is in hibernation 13:14 < diginet> F71: I need for the storage of some transformed yeast cells 13:14 < diginet> *it 13:14 < ParahSailin__> you can store yeast at -20 13:14 < F71> There's no room for it until we move. I outfitted the lab very well, though 13:14 < ParahSailin__> if you really had to 13:15 < diginet> how long would they last? 13:15 < F71> I'm thinking of moving one of the −80C freezers to my house. It's better to have one off-site once the biolab is booted back up anyways 13:16 < HEx1> are -80C freezers exceptionally expensive? how easy is it to lower the temperature of a domestic freezer by turning up the compressor or something? 13:16 < F71> can't do it. 13:16 < F71> The −80 freezers use a two-stage compression heat exchanger 13:17 < F71> basically, a freon system driving a CO2 phase change system 13:17 < diginet> ah, freon, lovely stuff 13:18 < F71> They weren't especially hard to fix. I get all my equipment from scrappers. 13:18 < F71> Some from medical waste auctions 13:19 < F71> Scrappers don't care about what an object is or it's worth, they just want the metal 13:20 < F71> *its 13:20 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:20 < F71> no, It's 13:20 < ParahSailin__> how and where in houston do you get this stuff 13:21 < F71> There's a few auction houses, and some ways to get ahold of discarded equipment at rice 13:21 < F71> there are a lot of scrappers, but one has to have an eye for components 13:22 < F71> The key thing is Houston is both a medical and research hub 13:22 < F71> There are special medical rules that say that equipment has to be discarded before half of its estimated lifespan 13:22 < F71> manufacturers are dicks, so they arbitrarily set low lifespans 13:23 < F71> so there's a constant outpouring of medical equipment 13:23 < F71> Vets can use them, but most are unwanted 13:23 < F71> they get picked up, refurbished, and sold on ebay at high price points 13:24 < ParahSailin__> what are the auction houses? 13:24 < F71> A really good one is slapsale, the physical location is just off of 288 13:24 < F71> I'll grab a link 13:25 < F71> http://www.slapsale.com/item_listings.aspx?cid=775856497 13:25 < diginet> F71: you are my hero 13:25 < F71> there are tricks to bidding there 13:25 < F71> most esoteric medical lots go for the 30 dollar minimum bid 13:26 < F71> I was able to outfit the biolab for under two grand 13:26 < F71> It's just.. stored due to me being the only DIYbio guy in the place 13:26 < HEx1> awesome 13:27 <@fenn> "lot of centrifuge rotors and accessories" 13:27 < ParahSailin__> http://www.slapsale.com/item_desc.aspx?itemid=51634 wow 13:27 < F71> The scrapyards are worth a look, too, as they're less of a hassle. I've found everything from ultracentrifuges to cell counters going for a quarter a pound 13:27 < F71> or less 13:28 <@fenn> wasnt that like a $2k item 13:28 < F71> I got two for like 200 bucks 13:29 < F71> the auction houses are a hassle so sometimes stuff gets shuffled from hostpital to scrapper 13:29 < F71> it saves them money 13:29 < F71> It's totally illegal though 13:30 < F71> like, the cell counter I got was full of fluid 13:30 < F71> I had to put on a bunny suit to keep from getting the Hep 13:30 < F71> 200 lbs of sticky orange shit 13:30 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:30 -!- augur_ [~augur@206.196.184.83] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:31 < F71> the ultracentrifuges would probably explode, so I leave them there until I the day I feel that ambitious 13:31 < kanzure> F71: we should definitely start a competition to see who can get the best equipment for the cheapest price 13:31 < yashgaroth> you've got plenty of time to run away while they spin up 13:31 < F71> that'd be cool 13:31 < kanzure> i got a 12x18 30W laser cutter for $600 13:32 < F71> that'd dead sexy 13:32 < kanzure> and a 6-axis robot arm for $200 13:32 < F71> big one? 13:32 < F71> You mentioned it 13:32 < kanzure> although the robot arm required tons of work 13:32 < kanzure> just a standard puma arm 13:32 < F71> puma and kuka are so cute 13:35 < F71> there's some federal level liquidation that's like, the big daddy of slapsale 13:36 < F71> like, an HP plant closes in the area and you can get 500 bunny suits, chip fab, clean room, etc, for minimum bid 13:36 < F71> I just don't have room to jump on this stuff 13:36 < kanzure> F71: halcyon molecular is liquidating their tools 13:36 < F71> I'd need to have a truck and a warehouse 13:36 < kanzure> i don't have an inventory or price list though 13:37 < yashgaroth> someone get on the daily show tonight and ask elon musk about it 13:38 < kanzure> the grapevine says that halcyon is actually continuing but it's splitting up into three factions 13:38 < roksprok_> ooo what factions? is one of them mind uploading/randall koene? 13:38 < diginet> F71, you ever see vacuum pumps on there? 13:39 < yashgaroth> when there's only 3 people working there that doesn't sound too promising 13:39 < F71> ParahSailin_ and diginet : Do either of you need pickup arrangements for TX/RX? 13:39 < F71> I see vaccum pumps of all kinds on there 13:39 < kanzure> F71: when? 13:40 < F71> and peristalic, and double membrane, etc 13:41 < F71> when? 13:41 < F71> when what? 13:41 < kanzure> F71: you said pickup arrangements. but presumably that requires a schedule yes? 13:42 < F71> do they need pickup? That's open, assuming they're both Houston area. 13:42 < kanzure> like are you guys going to a meeting there tonight? 13:42 < diginet> oh, me? not tonight 13:42 < F71> haha no, there's an open house every friday, actual work gets done on the other days. 13:42 < ParahSailin__> pickup arrangements? 13:43 < F71> I don't want to assume you both drive 13:43 < ParahSailin__> heh i drive 13:43 < diginet> I don't drive 13:44 < F71> K. I live in Katy area, so I can try and plot a route past you if you need to make it down. 13:45 < diginet> I'm not anywhere near there, Heights area for me 13:46 < diginet> I don't even know if I would be able to go anytime soon though, so it might be a moot point 13:46 < diginet> (and I would hate to be an inconvenience) 13:48 < kanzure> diginet: i think you're missing out on some really amazing people 13:51 < diginet> It's not that I wouldn't want to, I would just feel guilty about making F71 go far out of his way, and that I'm not sure if I have the time to 13:53 < F71> Heights? give me a nearby intersection 13:53 < F71> heights are huge 13:54 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@118-93-18-64.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:55 < diginet> well I say Heights, technically its just right by it, umm, let me think, nearby Intersection 13:55 < diginet> 43rd and Ella? 13:55 < F71> I head north on shepherd by I-10 regularly 13:56 < diginet> well, if you can swing it, provided my schedule allows for it, sure that would be fun 13:56 < diginet> thanks :) 13:57 < F71> The detour is practically nothing, It adds five minutes to the journey 13:59 < F71> Are you working around a schedule? School or something? 13:59 < F71> I tend to either be down weekends or late. 13:59 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:59 < nmz787> just woke up from a 16 hour 40 min nap 13:59 < F71> Do you have Mono? 14:00 < kanzure> don't use .net 14:00 < kanzure> mono isn't really worth it 14:00 -!- virnovus [~virnovus@dpc6744220004.direcpc.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:01 < kanzure> hi nmz787 14:01 < F71> *snrk* 14:01 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.255.233.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:01 < ParahSailin__> if you have mono, i'd like to collect an ebv sample 14:02 < F71> nmz787 either you're on some kind of experimental sleep phasing or you've got a problem 14:02 < F71> possibly both 14:06 < diginet> Me? I don't have mono, no 14:06 < diginet> I'm sort of working around a schedule 14:06 < nmz787> no mono here 14:07 < F71> no diginet not you, mononucleosis is a possible "16 hour nap" explanation 14:07 < nmz787> i woke up a few times, but went back to dreaming because it is better than gloomy rochester 14:07 < diginet> F71 oh okay, sorry 14:07 < F71> do you have bad internet in rochester? 14:08 < F71> a room with internet is a room anywhere, unless the air is made of hot stank like it is in houston when the power goes out 14:08 < F71> or when some hobo huffs your freon 14:09 < nmz787> yes internets and air are OK 14:10 < ParahSailin__> i think i wouldnt mind living in a microhouse 14:10 < F71> Do you have a brainport TDU and some kind of clever eye-motion communication relay? Does your Dream Avatar somehow have a better work environment? 14:11 < ParahSailin__> and have an outdoor patio kitchen 14:11 < F71> If not, Don't sleep so much, sleep is boooring. 14:11 < F71> :) 14:12 < nmz787> nah basically i slept around 2hrs 45 mins the night before, then when i woke up late for my 8am i said screw it, went back to sleep.... then woke up late for my 12 noon class, and screw it again 14:12 < F71> ah, haha 14:12 < nmz787> i'm in a pretty bored state of living right now though, dreamin is actually a bit more exciting 14:12 < nmz787> though less productive 14:13 < nmz787> i've been so bored/mind-blocked-by-school lately that my productivity is very low 14:13 < F71> past a certain point, collecting porn is more productive 14:13 < F71> anything but giving into the brain chemicals that tell you to stay in bed 14:14 < nmz787> i can stay in bed a long time, but i have to work quickly if i get out of bed to go to pee or something 14:14 < nmz787> before a certain waking period i can pretty easily get back to sleep 14:15 < nmz787> which is around 3 mins 14:15 < F71> what flushes the sleepy brain juice? can I have an intravenous alarm? 14:15 < roksprok_> nmz787: i have to say i'm a bit jealous...my dreams are always normal life things that aren't exciting at all 14:15 < roksprok_> in fact i sometimes think a conversation occured in real life and it turns out i was dreaming 14:15 < F71> Ah, I have the same bastard brain trickery 14:15 < nmz787> hmm 14:16 < F71> makes me think I'm getting ready for work and such 14:16 < nmz787> i used to do that a lot when i was a kid... dad would wake me up and I didnt want to go to class, go back to sleep, only to dream i was getting dressed and ready for school 14:16 < nmz787> to be interrupted by an even agrier dad 14:16 < nmz787> angrier* 14:16 -!- Replop [~Gwen@ASte-Genev-Bois-154-1-104-241.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16 < F71> There's a fugue state me that's freaking brilliant. I installed an alarm on my phone that makes me do math and stuff to cut off. 14:17 < roksprok_> i recall reading that some famous thinkers would get up for a few hours in the middle of the night to work 14:17 -!- Replop [~Gwen@ASte-Genev-Bois-154-1-104-241.w83-199.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:17 < F71> concious me didn't understand how I was able to break the process for a long time. I'd just wake up late to an error message 14:18 < F71> the alarm went off, but no math was done 14:18 < F71> not a single care was given 14:18 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:19 < F71> I was doing some kind of weird interface thing that breaks the process by bringing up the home screen 14:19 < F71> my roomate saw me do it 14:19 < nmz787> F71: lol.... when i was a kid i wired my radio alarm to some labtech powered computer speakers.... blasting right next to my ears didnt do shit 14:19 < kanzure> nmz787: synthetic genomics wants to talk w/ us.. 14:20 < nmz787> who is that? 14:20 < yashgaroth> craig venter 14:20 < F71> ffffffffffff 14:20 < nmz787> nice 14:20 < nmz787> where? 14:20 < nmz787> when? 14:20 -!- augur [~augur@206.196.184.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:20 < nmz787> email? 14:20 < F71> He does good things but I question his reasons 14:20 < kanzure> synthetic genomics is not craig? 14:20 < F71> Like, I'd rather somebody else do them. 14:20 < yashgaroth> lemme know if you're coming to SD, I worked a block from syngen 14:21 < kanzure> yashgaroth: do you feel like giving a presentation in person 14:21 < yashgaroth> j craig's egotistical enough that they're p. much one and the same 14:21 < kanzure> yashgaroth: they want april 12th 14:21 < kanzure> so i can be there 14:21 < yashgaroth> sure why not 14:21 < kanzure> ok let me do math 14:21 < nmz787> what, 2 days? 14:21 < yashgaroth> wait I may have a job interview but I'll check 14:22 < F71> they want to talk on IRC? 14:22 < kanzure> yashgaroth: if you have a job interview *at* syngen then that would be the best 14:22 < yashgaroth> ha no it's at lilly 14:22 < kanzure> oh i see 14:22 < yashgaroth> but it might just be the pre-screen/drug test blergh 14:22 < kanzure> venter founded syngen 14:22 < F71> you should ask for a job interview at syngen 14:22 < kanzure> what? you have to do drug testing? 14:23 < yashgaroth> no they're checking me so we'll see how that goes 14:23 < kanzure> dude if your job requires a drug test, you're shooting for the wrong jobs 14:23 < yashgaroth> heh true 14:23 < yashgaroth> they actually shot at me, recruiter called me an hour ago 14:23 < F71> I've never been shot at by someone that hadn't employed me yet 14:23 < yashgaroth> I'm just that good 14:23 < kanzure> nmz787: so.. you know how you said that meeting w/ craig? this is not quite it 14:24 < nmz787> what is it then? 14:24 < nmz787> we show up, they hit us with heavy wrenches? 14:24 < nmz787> "now you'll never innovate and make cheap DNA" 14:24 < nmz787> mwah hah hahh 14:24 < kanzure> no this is probably just a courtship 14:24 < kanzure> talking with companies is exactly like courting a date 14:25 < F71> Craig V's old special carter wrench 14:25 < F71> Sailing the high seas with a Mr. Coffee filter and a bag full of misplaced intentions. 14:26 < yashgaroth> oh no do I have to dress all slutty :/ 14:26 < diginet> yashgaroth. . .? 14:26 < nmz787> yes 14:26 < nmz787> most certainly 14:26 < yashgaroth> sweet 14:26 < diginet> so, will polyhistidine tags likely impair the function of my protein? 14:27 < diginet> yashgaroth, my sarcasm detector doesn't work, are you kidding or not? 14:27 < F71> nah, you clip them off afterward 14:27 < nmz787> prob not, if so there is a sequence you can add ot cut it off 14:27 < yashgaroth> maybe just a thong, some lipstick 14:27 < yashgaroth> yes it's sarcasm, and I'd recommend self-cleaving tags 14:27 < nmz787> thong only visible when you walk... 14:28 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i probably wont physically show up 14:28 < F71> Bring prophylactics. Show you mean business. 14:28 < kanzure> yashgaroth: this is just a phone call. if it progresses then i'll definitely hop on a plane at some point. 14:28 < F71> I can send you my design for the pants with the integrated kneepads 14:28 < yashgaroth> oh okay cuz I only know the oligo generation setup, not all the microfluidics 14:29 < nmz787> ahh 14:29 < nmz787> ok 14:29 < nmz787> brb 14:29 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:30 < diginet> how do you snip the tags off? 14:30 < F71> enzyme 14:30 < F71> or whatever this self-cleaving tech is 14:30 < yashgaroth> elp tag, inteins 14:31 < diginet> got it 14:32 < F71> You need to know which way the protein folds before you stick a tag on it 14:32 < diginet> are tags worth it? I gather they ease detection significantly 14:32 < F71> that way it's less likely to interfere 14:32 < diginet> I see 14:34 < yashgaroth> they mostly aid purification 14:34 < diginet> err, I meant purification not detection 14:39 < kanzure> oh you're right 14:40 < kanzure> it's a phone call with gibson 14:40 < kanzure> shit what am i doing 14:43 < kanzure> yashgaroth: quick! i need to become an expert in the gibson assembly method 14:44 < yashgaroth> wait you're calling the guy who invented gibson assembly? 14:45 < kanzure> that's who wants a call with me 14:45 < yashgaroth> I've never used it oh nooooo 14:45 < kanzure> terrible! what do i pay you for. :) 14:46 < yashgaroth> so it looks like you just get a primer that overlaps the blunt ends or something 14:46 < F71> exonuclease nips the 5' end so you have single stranded overlaps 14:46 < F71> There's a thermostable polymerase that fills in the gaps 14:47 < F71> and taq ligase finishes 14:47 < kanzure> so it's blunt-end ligation? 14:47 < F71> So, munch, annneal, fill in, ligate 14:48 < F71> you start with blunt, then you get some single-strand when the exonuclease is done 14:48 < F71> 50C is the key temperature 14:49 < F71> No restriction site scarring, you can combine a lot of stuff in one reaction, and the result can be transformed right away 14:50 < kanzure> what are you ligating? overlap extensions? 14:50 < F71> It's also cheap and fast since there are few reagents and the thermocycler doesn't need crazy temperature ramping 14:50 < F71> yeah, ligate the overlap after the polymerase fills in the gaps 14:51 < F71> the exonuclease just munch-munch-munches until you thermoinactivate it 14:51 < F71> then the overlaps anneal, the gaps get filled, and the taq ligase finishes assembly 14:51 < kanzure> nmz787: thursday 2:30 pm PST.. you down? 14:51 < F71> all in one 50C step 14:52 < kanzure> 4:30 CST. 14:53 < F71> that's 20 minutes ago 14:53 < F71> two days from now 14:53 < kanzure> thank you timebot9000 14:54 < F71> I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do. 14:54 < kanzure> indeed 14:55 <@fenn> randomly found this, it's actually a pretty good deal http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280852865243 14:55 <@fenn> stepper motor with integrated controller, leadscrew, anti-backlash nut, coupling, and linear slide, all for $65 14:56 <@fenn> when you consider the helical coupling alone is $35 on mcmaster 14:56 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-163-159.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:56 < F71> not bad at all 14:58 < katsmeow-afk> the shaft coupler is $35 on Macmaster?? those go unsold on ebay even at 99 cents 14:58 < F71> the controller on that unit is dead sexy 14:59 <@fenn> hong kong ebay price is $3.99 with shipping 14:59 < F71> but the application.. doesn't it require at least three? 14:59 <@fenn> damn, so my options are: (above link), mcmaster, UK, or hong kong 14:59 < F71> an integrated controller would probably be prudent 15:00 <@fenn> i hope it has step/dir mode 15:00 < F71> you don't need that much torque if it's for the teeny application y'all have been talking about 15:01 < diginet> urgh, protein purification, you will be the end of me 15:01 < F71> by that I mean a microlaser 15:01 < kanzure> diginet: you could do microfluidic protein purification :D 15:01 < kanzure> (don't hate) 15:01 < F71> what protein? 15:01 < diginet> will that be available anytime soon? 15:01 < F71> spidersss? 15:01 < diginet> yeah 15:01 < diginet> spidroins 15:01 < yashgaroth> gram scale on a chip 15:02 < diginet> they're rather large, 300 kDa or so, would that make things harder or easier? 15:02 <@fenn> hell i could just hose-clamp on a short length of rubber hose and call it a day 15:02 < F71> I've got a milligram scale chip. They're pretty simple. 15:02 <@fenn> why do you need a chip for that? 15:03 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-163-159.umd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:03 < diginet> what is a milligram scale chip? 15:03 < F71> It's the chip driver in my milligram scale. What were you talking about? 15:04 <@fenn> i can't tell if you're serious or not 15:04 < diginet> protein purification 15:04 < diginet> who, me? 15:04 <@fenn> no, f71 15:05 < diginet> oh 15:05 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-163-159.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:05 < diginet> is chromotography DIYable? 15:08 < virnovus> beef jerky looks like scabs 15:09 < delinquentme> katsmeow-afk, so they do 15:09 < delinquentme> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=shaft+coupling&_sacat=See-All-Categories 15:09 < delinquentme> damn 15:09 < yashgaroth> chromatography is sort of DIY-able, though no one's really explored it, that I know of 15:09 < kanzure> delinquentme: syngen wants a call 15:09 < kanzure> delinquentme: did you contact them? 15:10 < yashgaroth> oh kanz I should be able to make thursday work, also I'll brb in an hour 15:10 < virnovus> oops 15:11 < diginet> because I don't think I have any other options for purifying my protein 15:11 < kanzure> yashgaroth: ok. call me when you get back. 512-203-0507. 15:12 < delinquentme> syngen? 15:12 < kanzure> venter's company 15:12 < virnovus> yashgaroth: i've done some ion-exchange chromatography. but i'm not sure that works so well for protein 15:13 < delinquentme> that webpage doesnt look like its funded 15:13 < delinquentme> anyways who do they want to talk to 15:14 < kanzure> me 15:16 < F71> HPLC machines pass by on slapsale all the time, if anyone feels like snagging one to reverse engineer 15:16 < F71> they're one of the few items that actually garner bids, though 15:16 < F71> less so for LPLC 15:16 -!- F71 is now known as F7-afk 15:16 -!- F7-afk [~Adium@safekick-americas-2.consolidated.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:20 < kanzure> "In 2006 SGI raised its Series A round of financing from Draper Fisher Jurvetson, Meteor Group, Biotechonomy LLC and Plenus, S.A. de C.V. In 2007 SGI closed its Series B round of financing with BP plc and ACGT Sdn Bhd." 15:22 < kanzure> isn't this the one that got $600mil from exxon? 15:22 < diginet> SGI as in Silicon Graphics Inc? 15:22 < kanzure> http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/07/14/14greenwire-exxon-sinks-600m-into-algae-based-biofuels-in-33562.html 15:25 < delinquentme> kanzure, when you talking to them 15:25 < kanzure> thursday.. 15:27 < delinquentme> did i get their website right? 15:27 < kanzure> ? 15:28 < delinquentme> bc it looks like they're looking for design work and not to invest 15:28 < delinquentme> google the name 15:32 < kanzure> yep. 15:37 -!- F71 [~Adium@50.15.211.25] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:37 < F71> back 15:43 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [] 15:46 < ParahSailin__> i need to beg some Phanerochaete chrysosporium off of someone 16:06 -!- ctobin [cory.tobin@DHCP-52-143.caltech.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:06 -!- ctobin [cory.tobin@DHCP-52-143.caltech.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 16:08 -!- cory_tobin [cory.tobin@DHCP-52-143.caltech.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:12 < kanzure> yashgaroth: thx 16:12 < yashgaroth> np 16:12 < yashgaroth> virnovus: ion-exchange is the gold standard for protein purification, but generally you need several steps, versus a single step for affinity 16:25 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:27 < virnovus> yeah, i could stand to learn more about chemistry 16:30 < ParahSailin__> http://www.emiok.com/Damaged%20Freigth%20Uploads/2012-04-10-DF-Dis.htm 16:31 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@dslb-188-104-221-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:31 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@dslb-188-104-221-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:31 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:33 < yashgaroth> 85 gallons of basil oleoresin, yes please 16:38 < azonenberg> diginet, kanzure: the smallest i've gotten is 20 microns 16:38 < azonenberg> i hit 5 experimentally 16:38 < azonenberg> but cant do so with any kind of reasonable yield 16:39 < kanzure> azonenberg: we're building a laser cutter to do 1 micron resolution cuts in pdms and acrylic 16:39 < azonenberg> kanzure: awesome, if you can do 1um patterning i may have uses for such a tool 16:39 < azonenberg> mostly for failure analysis 16:39 < azonenberg> cutting single wires etc 16:39 < kanzure> well the goal is to keep this pretty cheap 16:39 < kanzure> fenn: ping 16:39 < azonenberg> Whats the price point 16:40 < kanzure> well so far it looks like <2000 16:40 <@fenn> yes? 16:40 < kanzure> fenn: i am about to leave for a few minutes and was hoping you'd play with azonenberg :( 16:41 < kanzure> azonenberg: that 2k number does not include the laser yet, not sure about the total cost 16:41 < azonenberg> kanzure: i see 16:41 < azonenberg> Well 16:41 < kanzure> azonenberg: actually we might be needing help with the optics 16:41 < azonenberg> what i wanted to do was UV direct write lithography 16:41 < kanzure> is this something you could help us with? 16:41 <@fenn> azonenberg: well, it's all in design phase atm, who knows what spot size is realistic 16:41 < azonenberg> low-power bluray diode (exposure, not ablation) 16:41 < azonenberg> onto photoresist 16:41 < azonenberg> on top of a chrome-on-glass mask 16:41 < azonenberg> then develop, etch in HCl 16:41 < azonenberg> and now you have a nice contact mask 16:42 <@fenn> one problem i see there.. how do you get both fine lines and cover large areas? 16:42 < azonenberg> you can use much faster scan speeds and lower laser powers if you do photoexposure instead of ablation 16:42 < azonenberg> Large areas? 16:42 < azonenberg> This is for a single IC die 16:42 <@fenn> otherwise all your wires are 1 micron wide 16:43 < azonenberg> Thats the goal 16:43 < azonenberg> this is for IC fab lol 16:43 < azonenberg> and i was thinking of panning the optics to cover a small area at high resolution 16:43 < azonenberg> then stepping the stage 16:43 < azonenberg> re-aligning somehow 16:43 < azonenberg> and repeating 16:43 <@fenn> wouldn't you have problems with wire resistance (RC time constant) 16:43 < azonenberg> thats a much harder problem 16:43 < azonenberg> Wire resistance is killiing modern processes 16:43 < azonenberg> but at the 22nm node 16:43 < azonenberg> at 1um its not an issue 16:43 < azonenberg> if you buffer signals periodically 16:44 < azonenberg> i mean on any long signal you will buffer every hundred microns (or less) 16:46 < azonenberg> and high-fanout signals like clocks are pretty much defined by the buffering tree you use :p 16:47 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@v.icario.us] has quit [Changing host] 16:47 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@CAcert/Vicarious] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:50 <@fenn> i didn't realize there was that much buffering going on 16:52 <@fenn> anyway we're moving the whole slide at 1:1 magnification, so "cover a small area at high resolution" doesn't make sense 16:54 < katsmeow-afk> clock signals must be buffered because different loading causes time skew 16:54 < katsmeow-afk> for the rest of it, use real metals :-) 16:54 < azonenberg> fenn: whats the goal 16:55 < azonenberg> katsmeow-afk: you mean copper? 16:55 < azonenberg> I wanted to try copper damascene at some point 16:55 <@fenn> direct etching PDMS films for microfluidics 16:55 < azonenberg> oh 16:55 < azonenberg> Never done any microfluidics 16:55 <@fenn> me either 16:55 < azonenberg> i'm more into silicon-based life forms :p 16:55 <@fenn> PDMS is silicone :P 16:56 < azonenberg> i know 16:56 < azonenberg> but presumably you're doing it as a framework for carbon-based cells 16:56 <@fenn> something like that 16:57 <@fenn> we're going to need a spin coater to make the films 16:57 <@fenn> so i'm interested in any progress you make on that 16:57 < azonenberg> Ok 16:57 < azonenberg> Well, i have the beginnings of a cad design and got distracted by class 16:57 < azonenberg> I already made one that was dirt cheap 16:57 < azonenberg> but it was bulky (so it didnt fit comfortably in my fume hood) 16:57 < azonenberg> and had poor speed control 16:57 <@fenn> yeah i'm wondering if a dremel will suffice 16:57 < azonenberg> I used a hand drill 16:58 < azonenberg> and a 2x4 to make the frame 16:58 < azonenberg> and a sanding head 16:58 < azonenberg> it works but lacks good speed control 16:58 < azonenberg> poor uniformity 16:58 <@fenn> right. angle grinder might work too 16:58 < azonenberg> also, you will want a way to exhaust the solvent 16:58 < katsmeow-afk> flammable solvent? 16:58 < azonenberg> Whatever the film is dissolved in 16:58 < azonenberg> in my case its somewhat flammable and a bit toxic too (as are most organic solvents) 16:58 < azonenberg> So i built a fume hood 16:58 <@fenn> add mass to rotor to smooth out the vibration from the gears, add tachometer and SCR to control speed 16:59 < azonenberg> Pretty much 16:59 < azonenberg> But i want mine to look nice :p 16:59 <@fenn> i dont even know what a spin coater is supposed to look like anyway 16:59 <@fenn> presumably some kind of box with lid and knobs 16:59 < azonenberg> the main thing you need is 16:59 < azonenberg> a chuck of some sort to hold the sample 17:00 < azonenberg> some way of attaching the sample to it (tape, suction, etc) 17:00 < azonenberg> Have the chuck be well balanced 17:00 <@fenn> a chuck is just a smooth plate right? 17:00 < azonenberg> Yes, you can also have holes in it for suction if you want vacuum adhesion instead of tape 17:00 < azonenberg> i usually use tape 17:00 < azonenberg> But have it be well balanced about the centerline so it wont vibrate too badly 17:00 < azonenberg> Then some means of making it spin 17:00 < azonenberg> you want 500 - 5k RPM range mostly 17:00 < azonenberg> and you want to control the acceleration and speed 17:01 <@fenn> maybe i can use a polisher, those have adjustable speed built in 17:01 < azonenberg> Oh, and last but certainly not least 17:02 < azonenberg> A spatter guard 17:02 < azonenberg> Spin coating tends to be a messy process :p 17:02 <@fenn> yes of course 17:03 <@fenn> why is 5k the upper end of the range? 17:03 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:04 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:04 < azonenberg> Just based on past experience in terms of what various coatings needed 17:04 < azonenberg> i dont recall having ever had to go faster 17:04 < azonenberg> maybe 6k at most 17:05 < azonenberg> But in general if you want a thinner film you can always dilute the stuff with a solvent 17:05 < azonenberg> i do that with photoresist all the time 17:05 < azonenberg> most of my coatings are 50% v/v with acetone 17:05 < kanzure> pimp my spin coater http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ/Projects#DIY_Spin_Coater 17:06 < kanzure> http://nathan.instras.com/projects/spin-coater/index.html 17:06 < kanzure> use the second link 17:06 < kanzure> hah he sells them on his ebay store. this guy is legit. 17:07 < kanzure> "For about $70.00 dollars in parts and some ingenuity (and ofcourse access to the college's machine shop), I was able to put together the system shown below. Ironically, we latter purchased a commercial spin-coater for $5000.00" 17:07 <@fenn> is that a CD spindle case used as the safety guard? 17:07 < kanzure> i think it's a splatter guard 17:09 < kanzure> with a corny video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WjBfd8fX20 17:10 < ParahSailin__> what do you spincoat using acetone 17:15 <@fenn> so it's using a remote control airplane motor? 17:15 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:16 < kanzure> AND tape. not /just/ an RC motor 17:22 < azonenberg> Also since there is no computer controlled ramp function, the ability to optimize the spinning process might be limited 17:22 < azonenberg> I want to make one that does that 17:22 < azonenberg> ParahSailin__: shipley SP24 photoresist 17:22 < azonenberg> the solvent is somethign else 17:22 < azonenberg> but i dont have any ethyl acetate on hand (the recommended solvent) 17:23 < kanzure> a ramp function does not seem hard to me? 17:23 < azonenberg> and acetone works just as well but it evaporates a bit fastr 17:23 < azonenberg> its not hard 17:23 < ParahSailin__> yeah, acetone is a shitty solvent for spincoating -- too high of vapor pressure 17:23 < azonenberg> but their unit lacks it 17:23 < kanzure> their unit looks like a toy 17:23 < azonenberg> Mine will be much nicer 17:23 < azonenberg> SHouldnt be that hard 17:23 <@fenn> ethyl acetate is recommended because it's less toxic than acetone 17:23 < azonenberg> i just need to find time to work on it 17:23 < azonenberg> fenn: Less toxic? I thought acetone was one of the least-nasty organic solvents around 17:23 <@fenn> it is 17:23 < ParahSailin__> ethyl acetate has much lower vapor pressure also 17:24 < azonenberg> and my PR has some nastier stuff in it 17:24 < ParahSailin__> which is good for making even coating 17:24 < azonenberg> like 2-ethoxyethyl acetate and xylene and i think some toluene 17:24 < azonenberg> I do all of my coating in a fume hood 17:24 < azonenberg> Admittedly its a homebrewed hood 17:24 < azonenberg> But it works 17:25 < roksprok> http://www.ipgphotonics.com/Collateral/Documents/English-US/Pulsed_YTT_GLPM_10.pdf laser data sheet...they call it a 1 micron laser? 17:26 <@fenn> that's the wavelength 17:27 -!- augur [~augur@wireless-206-196-163-159.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:37 -!- F71 is now known as F7-AFK 18:00 < kanzure> heh i forgot about the xavier protocols 18:03 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-24-3-85-154.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:09 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:26 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:30 -!- virnovus [~virnovus@dpc6744220004.direcpc.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31 < nmz787> yo 18:31 < nmz787> went out on a walk 18:36 < kanzure> nmz787: something about spincoaters 18:36 < nmz787> i read 18:36 < kanzure> http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ/Projects#DIY_Spin_Coater 18:36 < kanzure> http://nathan.instras.com/projects/spin-coater/index.html 18:36 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WjBfd8fX20 18:36 < nmz787> wat time thurs? pst or est? 18:36 < kanzure> pst 18:37 < kanzure> are you around then? 18:37 < nmz787> 230PST? 18:37 < kanzure> yes 18:37 < nmz787> thurs? 18:38 < kanzure> well, 230 PDT.. 18:38 < kanzure> yes 18:38 < nmz787> yes 18:38 < nmz787> i can do that 18:38 < kanzure> ok. let's touch base 10-20min before the call 18:38 < _Sketch_> I hear there was robotic fabric that was used in Superman's cape in one of the movies. Is that a myth? I can't find anything about the stuff. 18:39 < nmz787> send me his email addy 18:39 < kanzure> who's? 18:40 < nmz787> gibson, that's who we're talking to right? 18:40 < kanzure> yes, but i don't have his email 18:40 < kanzure> why do you need it 18:40 < nmz787> ahh 18:40 < nmz787> would send my cv 18:40 < nmz787> :D 18:40 < nmz787> right before 18:40 < kanzure> haha hold off on that 18:41 < kanzure> that is way too tacky 18:41 * yashgaroth quietly shelves his resume 18:41 < nmz787> well he wants to get to know us, isnt that why he wants to talk? 18:42 < nmz787> who told you he wants to talk? 18:42 < kanzure> his assistant 18:42 < nmz787> did he call someone, snail mail? 18:42 < kanzure> and no don't send him our CVs 18:44 < nmz787> http://www.jcvi.org/cms/about/bios/dgibson/?iframe=true&width=80%25&height=80%25 18:45 < kanzure> nmz787: phone 19:01 < kanzure> thx 19:07 < n_bentha> yashgaroth! 19:07 < yashgaroth> ! 19:07 < n_bentha> did u find a job:? 19:08 < n_bentha> nice 19:08 < yashgaroth> heh maybe we'll see how the drug test goes 19:08 < yashgaroth> if they wait til next week to do it I'll be fine 19:10 < yashgaroth> or if this other company hurries up and interviews me I won't need to worry 19:10 < n_bentha> i knew that was going to come up 19:10 < n_bentha> just get some pee from me 19:10 < n_bentha> i haven't smoked since almost 2 years ago 19:10 < kanzure> ah yes the secret ##hplusroadmap urinal trading group 19:11 < n_bentha> urine* 19:11 < kanzure> no we're trading physical urinals 19:11 < yashgaroth> I had a tiiiiny bit a few days ago while watching some mst3k, so I'll just drink a lot of water beforehand 19:11 < yashgaroth> what do they expect?! I'm unemployed ffs 19:12 < yashgaroth> but yeah it's only big biotech where they test...for the most part 19:12 < kanzure> why are you even.. what? 19:12 < kanzure> find some better jobs man 19:12 < yashgaroth> but I'm lazy 19:13 < yashgaroth> too lazy for weed? we shall see 19:14 < yashgaroth> I can always not accept their offer :/ 19:18 < n_bentha> or you can just fail the test and see if they will still hire you 19:18 < n_bentha> ? 19:18 < yashgaroth> heh I doubt they would, or at least by then I'd pass a retest 19:22 < kanzure> fenn: are we ordering xy stage parts 19:23 <@fenn> please restate the question in the form of an answer 19:24 < kanzure> we need a checklist 19:24 < kanzure> .. or something 19:25 -!- virnovus [~virnovus@dpc6744220004.direcpc.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:25 <@fenn> i've been adding to the google doc 19:25 < kanzure> oh. i didn't check that. 19:25 < kanzure> clicking.. 19:26 < kanzure> the optical table is $3500 but the grand total is 2882? 19:26 <@fenn> i'm not sure where to get helical couplers.. $35 each sounds retarded, but so does waiting for weeks for hong kong to shop 19:26 <@fenn> ship* 19:26 <@fenn> on the other hand i could just use rubber hose until hong kong ships 19:26 <@fenn> it's not a critical component 19:26 < kanzure> oh nevermind. total is for the other column. 19:27 <@fenn> i think the table is overkill 19:27 < kanzure> can we also have a repeatability column? 19:27 < kanzure> or some other name for that aspect 19:27 <@fenn> oh, like custom-ness 19:27 <@fenn> or surplus-ness 19:27 < kanzure> surplusness :) 19:30 <@fenn> pretty sure we can shop around a bit more than just ordering from thor labs or newport 19:30 <@fenn> anyway i think you should buy that stepper with integrated driver even if we don't use it (he has 4 of them) 19:31 < kanzure> from ebay? 19:31 <@fenn> yeah 19:31 < kanzure> how many do you want 19:31 <@fenn> um, 2 is good 19:31 < n_bentha> a baker's dozen, please 19:31 <@fenn> 4 is not crazy 19:31 * n_bentha is typing nonsense. don't listen. 19:32 < nmz787> i agree 19:32 < kanzure> er. so 2 or 4? 19:32 < nmz787> only thing i dont know about is the amperage 19:32 < nmz787> might as well get 4 19:32 < nmz787> wait 19:33 < nmz787> is lin silverpak a good manufacturer? 19:33 < nmz787> http://www.linengineering.com/LinE/contents/stepmotors/SilverPak_17C.aspx 19:33 < kanzure> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Nema17-Stepper-Motor-7-5-ohm-0-8-Amp-1-8-Deg-3400g-cm-CNC-Reprap-Arduino-/180790704516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a17f73984 19:33 < kanzure> is this the one? 19:33 <@fenn> this is what i'm talking about http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280852865243 19:33 < kanzure> it'si n oakland? 19:33 < nmz787> yes 19:33 < kanzure> can you just go pick that up? 19:33 < kanzure> wtf 19:34 < nmz787> and that is the link to who made it 19:34 < kanzure> should i grab this through ebay or through the site? 19:34 < nmz787> how much torque do we need? 19:34 < nmz787> to efficiently microstep? 19:35 < kanzure> oh boy "Stores up to 16 different programs at once with 4 kBytes of memory" 19:35 <@fenn> yeah i don't plan on using that 19:35 < nmz787> NO FULL STEP 19:35 < nmz787> weird 19:36 < kanzure> "Step Resolutions of full step, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8," 19:36 < kanzure> does this include the rs485-to-usb converter? 19:37 <@fenn> looks like it 19:37 <@fenn> oh wait not usb 19:37 <@fenn> its the rs485 to rs232 converter 19:38 < kanzure> i don't have anything with rs232 anymore :( 19:38 < nmz787> i have them listed on the spreadsheet 19:38 <@fenn> so, what i'd like to know, is it possible to drive this with step/direction commands? 19:39 < kanzure> fenn: nmz787 could i convince one of you to call them and ask before i purchase it? 19:39 <@fenn> it doesn't look like it 19:39 < kanzure> also, how are we going to do rs232 in our project 19:40 < kanzure> oh it's probably just power-over-pin or something 19:41 <@fenn> basically i just want to mess around with some junk 19:41 <@fenn> this has most of the parts i'm buying already assembled into something 19:41 < nmz787> sort of 19:41 < nmz787> more like vectors 19:42 < nmz787> you tell it how many steps to move, and in which direction 19:42 <@fenn> H04 means to Halt until it sees a low, or 0, on input #4 19:42 <@fenn> P5000 move the motor in the positive direction by 5000 steps 19:42 <@fenn> R is to run this string of commands 19:42 <@fenn> er, the command is "1H04P50000R 19:42 < nmz787> so curves would be weird 19:43 <@fenn> nmz787: i agree 19:43 < nmz787> this is similar (i wonder if ripped off of) to the boards i have picked 19:43 <@fenn> also, how do you synchronize two motors? 19:43 < nmz787> (or if allmotion's board is the controller in this) 19:43 < nmz787> but the allmotion controller, i know, can do step/dir 19:44 < nmz787> kanzure: the reason the total is 2800 but the optical table is 3500.... is because the second column is # required, and the table has a 0 19:45 < nmz787> kanzure fenn: the laser is there though 19:45 <@fenn> i have a 4 axis board from hong kong that can do 16x microstepping ($75) 19:45 < nmz787> i will get a piece of black acrylic this week and try burning it with the 830nm diode laser i have 19:45 < kanzure> nmz787: got it.. also, i didn't see the gantry and laser costs were separated. a $400 gantry makes way more sense than $2800 :) 19:46 < nmz787> with a fiber coupled laser the optics will be easier and less parts 19:46 < kanzure> fenn: i am totally unclear on whether that ebay'd part is something i should get you or not 19:46 <@fenn> kanzure: me too 19:47 <@fenn> kanzure: basically, you can buy a helical coupler for $35, or a helical coupler and stepper and linear slide and leadscrew and nut and bracket for $65 19:47 <@fenn> and driver 19:47 <@fenn> make sense/ 19:48 < kanzure> sort of. is this stuff useful if the electronics is crap 19:48 <@fenn> i think so 19:48 < nmz787> gantry price didnt include the stepper controllers 19:48 < nmz787> now it is $981 19:49 <@fenn> your stepper controllers are overpriced 19:49 < nmz787> they are solid though 19:49 < nmz787> i've used them before 19:50 < nmz787> find something comparable 19:50 <@fenn> we need at most something like http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182 19:50 < kanzure> fenn: ok. i'll grab two. 19:50 < nmz787> kanzure: not being able to do step dir is a problem, fenn? 19:51 <@fenn> yes, for one it complicates the software problem, and two it probably won't work at all if the drivers are separate 19:51 <@fenn> how do you synchronize two independent controllers? 19:51 < nmz787> you said you wanted step/dir 19:51 < nmz787> that can be synchronous 19:51 <@fenn> correct 19:51 < nmz787> you could do sync with this too 19:52 < nmz787> but i bet there is a lag 19:52 <@fenn> over rs232? i dont get what you're saying 19:52 < nmz787> so the determination is harder 19:52 < nmz787> because you send a program over 19:52 < nmz787> then tell it to execute 19:52 < nmz787> its parsing the serial string 19:52 < nmz787> rather than just TTL for step dir 19:53 <@fenn> once again, "it's so easy!" makes my life hell 19:53 < nmz787> its enough of a parser that you can send it loops and stuff in the cmd string 19:53 < nmz787> so i imagine there is some lag, yes 19:53 < nmz787> if its short enough, then its no worry 19:54 < kanzure> i worry so much about buying motion controllers and steppers for fenn 19:54 < nmz787> i guess it would just limit the speed at which we could cut curves? 19:54 < kanzure> he's going to build a mobile gundam suit and fucking blow up san francisco 19:54 < nmz787> :P 19:54 * fenn grumbles 19:55 <@fenn> option a) spend $225 on something complicated and stupid that won't ever work 19:55 < kanzure> fenn: no giant man-eating robots ok? 19:55 <@fenn> option b) spend $12 on something better and easy and guaranteed to work 19:57 <@fenn> grr stupid google docs 19:57 <@fenn> i can't paste a url without it navigating to that url 19:58 < nmz787> where is the $12 part? 19:58 <@fenn> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182 19:58 < kanzure> wow am i this bad at ebaying? 19:59 < kanzure> it won't let me change my address before i press 'commit to buy' 19:59 <@fenn> nmz787: it needs heatsinks 19:59 < n_bentha> ebay sucks 20:00 < n_bentha> and ya kanzure, you just say commit to buy and enter the shipping address in after 20:00 < kanzure> isn't this the awful company that bought paypal 20:00 < n_bentha> yeah 20:01 -!- flamoot [~root@69.158.27.91] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:01 < flamoot> when it's starting to nimoy, it kind of sounds like whales 20:01 < flamoot> great evolving grid 20:01 < flamoot> pan the frame back off the list of views using J and K 20:01 < flamoot> off the top or bottom, 20:01 < flamoot> to get back to the evolved sound 20:01 < flamoot> http://ansistego.sf.net/stim-mingw.zip 20:01 < flamoot> windows 20:01 < flamoot> http://ansistego.sf.net/stim.tgz linux 20:01 < kanzure> oh neato paypal has been holding some spare change hostage 20:01 < flamoot> . and , do volume 20:01 < flamoot> i got it just perfect now 20:01 < nmz787> fenn: i'm interested in 256 microstepping experiments, my thinking is it may increase wall smoothness 20:01 < flamoot> makes a sound wave, you can change the wav file to anything 20:02 < flamoot> i've only been doing this population a day 20:02 < flamoot> and they make nimoy like sounds already 20:02 < flamoot> that's the fitness function 20:02 < flamoot> http://ansistego.sf.net/stim.tgz linux 20:02 < nmz787> hi flamoot! 20:02 < flamoot> gcc -O3 -lSDL -lSDL_mixer -ffast-math 20:02 < flamoot> sup nmz787 20:02 < nmz787> what are you up to? 20:02 < flamoot> i just added a view of every view and the ability to render other views as sound sources, 20:02 < flamoot> nothing really 20:02 < nmz787> i dont have the SDL libs 20:02 < flamoot> i'll make a cigarette. i'm evolving some cells 20:03 < flamoot> too bad 20:03 < flamoot> get windows one 20:03 < nmz787> :( 20:03 < flamoot> http://ansistego.sf.net/stim-mingw.zip wiondows 20:03 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+b *!*root@69.158.27.*] by fenn 20:03 -!- flamoot was kicked from ##hplusroadmap by fenn [flamoot] 20:03 < kanzure> i wonder how many times we will have to do that 20:03 < nmz787> i wondered when someone would do it 20:03 < nmz787> its kind of funny 20:03 < kanzure> this guy is unbeatable 20:03 < kanzure> good for him? 20:04 < nmz787> nah 20:04 < nmz787> it could prob get bad 20:04 < kanzure> fenn: ok it should be at your place in a few days 20:04 <@fenn> whee 20:04 < kanzure> that checkout process was terrible 20:05 <@fenn> it may come in handy for other projects, anything requiring simple motion back and forth 20:05 <@fenn> or i can just pillage it for parts 20:05 < kanzure> why am i shipping to 15 langton st? i thought it was 9 langton 20:06 < nmz787> fenn: how about this http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/APPLICATION_NOTE/CD00004339.pdf 20:06 <@fenn> 15 is our mailbox.. though they will probably knock on the 9 door 20:06 < kanzure> 20:03 gonna use it to crack captchas next 20:06 < kanzure> 20:03 spam 4chan about my implant again 20:07 < kanzure> well. if i ever have problems with libsdl and neural nets i guess i know who to ask. 20:07 < nmz787> :P 20:07 < nmz787> yes 20:08 <@fenn> nmz787: i don't get it, why do "analog" microstepping if you can get a 256 microstepping chip ready to go? (maybe i'm misunderstanding that data sheet) 20:08 < nmz787> fenn: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=9iSXU9KXrZlShsRPXWEX1w%3D%3D 20:09 < nmz787> fenn: that pululu didnt do more than 1/16 20:09 < kanzure> "You sent a payment to Dan Goldstein (xxknick1972@hotmail.com)" 20:09 < nmz787> i wish allegro made a 256 chip 20:09 < nmz787> they seem easier to use 20:10 < kanzure> why does it say my name is my dad's :( 20:13 <@fenn> nmz787: another thing you might not have thought about.. the more microsteps you have, the more "step" pulses you need to make to cover a given distance. this can be difficult to achieve with standard pc hardware (and software) such as i'm planning on using 20:16 <@fenn> typical step rates are 20kHz.. any higher and you start running into time quantization errors (because the realtime loop can only run so fast, an afaik nobody's written a "NOP" inter-loop delay yet) 20:16 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 20:16 < nmz787> fenn: there are these chinese ones http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Stepper-Motor-Driver-1-0-4-5A-Support-Nema17-Nema23-Nema34-DC20-50V-256-Step-/220957090029?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337211a0ed 20:16 < nmz787> i thought we were controlling with a propeller? 20:17 <@fenn> why would you think that? 20:17 < nmz787> runs at 100mhz easily 20:17 < nmz787> with 8 cores 20:17 < nmz787> there's your snch 20:17 <@fenn> and how are you going to control it 20:17 < nmz787> synchronous 20:17 < nmz787> send it a file with the path 20:18 <@fenn> please elaborate 20:18 < nmz787> i thought kanzure was going to write some software for CAD for this stuff 20:18 <@fenn> no, that's ridiculous 20:18 < nmz787> and the output would be a list of vector paths 20:18 < kanzure> gcode? 20:19 <@fenn> you need firmware running on the propeller or whatever to interpret those commands and actually twiddle pin voltages 20:19 < nmz787> right 20:20 <@fenn> i also would like some kind of UI running on a pc so i can see what the motion controller thinks it's doing 20:20 <@fenn> fortunately, someone's already written a very good motion control system that runs on old commodity pc hardware 20:21 <@fenn> with an interface and lots of documentation etc 20:21 < kanzure> er weren't you the one who wrote parts of that 20:21 <@fenn> http://linuxcnc.org/ 20:21 <@fenn> yeah, so i'm biased 20:22 <@fenn> also, the parallax propeller always struck me as someone's first attempt at doing a chip fab 20:22 < nmz787> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3676939654724547603 20:22 < nmz787> says its interpreting g/m code 20:23 <@fenn> presumably it's drawing something 20:23 < nmz787> fenn: how many microsteps can linuxcnc do with PC? 20:23 <@fenn> i'm sorry i don't find that video very convincing 20:24 <@fenn> nmz787: the limiting factor isn't "how many microsteps" it's "what's the maximum step rate on X CPU", which is usually 20-50kHz 20:24 <@fenn> though it works better if you don't push it to max 20:24 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Quit: the neuronal action potential is an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt phase changes in the lipid bilayer] 20:25 < nmz787> i see 20:25 < nmz787> so does linuxcnc open SVG or what? 20:25 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@c-24-118-174-49.hsd1.wi.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:25 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@c-24-118-174-49.hsd1.wi.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 20:25 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:25 < nmz787> how is the process flow? 20:26 <@fenn> you can set up custom scripts to interpret different file types such as svg, but really it's designed to take g-code 20:26 <@fenn> there's a plugin for inkscape to export g-code, and maybe some more tools have sprouted up in the past 2 years 20:28 < nmz787> ahh 20:28 <@fenn> "G-code pretty complicated. I wrote an interpreter a few years ago that implemented most of the codes, but ran out of Propeller memory before it could be finished. Still there was enough to do some X/Y table printing, etc... The PC application would read the G-code and send it to the Propeller an instruction at a time. Sadly all of that work was lost in one of my computer disasters. Here's a 20:28 <@fenn> video of the system running: " 20:28 < nmz787> hmm 20:29 <@fenn> gosh that poll is still up on the linuxcnc page 20:29 <@fenn> well i guess it's "stable" 20:30 < nmz787> couldn't you literally just send step/dir from the PC 20:30 < nmz787> if we use serial, we're talking Mbaud rates 20:30 <@fenn> yeah, that's what linuxcnc does (step/dir over parallel port) 20:31 < nmz787> why is the limit of linux cnc 500khz 20:31 < nmz787> 50* 20:31 <@fenn> something about ISA frequency being slow 20:31 < nmz787> right but USB 1 is in the Mbaud 20:31 <@fenn> ISA clock is 1MHz and it takes 2 bus cycles to complete a register update 20:31 < nmz787> it sounds like you're saying linuxcnc needs updated 20:31 < nmz787> is that possible? 20:32 <@fenn> sigh 20:32 < nmz787> if kanzure anyway thought of some custom software 20:32 <@fenn> hold on 20:32 < kanzure> any software i've mentioned before was not controller related 20:32 <@fenn> there are several branches in this parameter space one could take 20:33 <@fenn> one is to forget about steppers entirely 20:33 * kanzure ponders why his dishwasher has stopped 20:33 <@fenn> use a servo motor with an encoder with as much resolution as you need 20:33 < nmz787> (i'm not trying to sound aggressive, i just want to explore the space thoroughly before we make long-lasting decisions) 20:34 < nmz787> is that a better option? 20:34 <@fenn> another is to use the Pico systems board, (i forget the model number) which makes a stepper with too many microsteps appear like a servo interface to linuxcnc 20:34 < nmz787> we had also talked about the interferometer as an encoder 20:34 <@fenn> i think mesa electronics also makes a board like this 20:35 < nmz787> though avoiding that will save us time 20:35 <@fenn> interferometers are black magic 20:35 <@fenn> having never used one and heard many horror stories, i'm reluctant to consider that a viable option 20:35 < nmz787> $250 20:35 < nmz787> http://pico-systems.com/univstep.html 20:36 < nmz787> interferometers are not black magic, they are just cool physics 20:36 < nmz787> taming that may be black art 20:36 < nmz787> i will concede 20:37 < nmz787> the pico thing says it doesnt include drivers 20:37 < nmz787> oh wow its got an FPGA 20:37 < nmz787> you know its good :P 20:37 <@fenn> correct, it's just an interface board 20:37 <@fenn> anyway at that point you might as well just get a servo with encoders 20:38 < nmz787> i think the pico looks like a good solution 20:38 < nmz787> does linux CNC do that? 20:39 < nmz787> wouldn't it be speed limited? 20:39 < nmz787> what about holding current? we aren't really pushing anything 20:40 <@fenn> ah i see what you're saying 20:41 <@fenn> i don't know what the limiting factor would be with the pico 20:42 <@fenn> i also don't think we should design the first iteration as pushing the envelope 20:42 < diginet> transformation would probably be more complicated, but I think for large scale production, a plant based expression system would be ideal over a yeast based one 20:43 < nmz787> diginet: longer generation time though 20:43 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-91-221-175.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:44 < nmz787> diginet: maybe harder to lyse too... plants don't really do secretion as easily as broth culture IMO 20:44 < kanzure> nmz787: does fenn's comments make sense 20:44 < kanzure> *do 20:45 < nmz787> he said to use a servo 20:45 < nmz787> i think it depends on the resolution attainable by the encoder 20:46 < nmz787> like i said, we're not really pushing anything, so we don't need holding torque, which is one reason steppers are good 20:46 < nmz787> (steppers can hold in place well*) 20:46 <@fenn> what i'm saying is, if you need high speed combined with high resolution, use a servo 20:47 < nmz787> i don't neccesarily think we need high speed 20:47 <@fenn> then just bit-bang the parallel port as usual 20:47 < nmz787> but does linux CNC handle encoders and servos? 20:47 <@fenn> yes, but you need third party interface boards 20:48 < diginet> nmz787, good point, however I'm reading a paper on transgenic tobacco, where they basically baked the plant, but due to the heat-stability of the protein, the silk precursors were unscathed 20:49 <@fenn> i think it's OK if rev. 1 is slow, at least it will show that we can cut channels 20:49 < nmz787> ahh, what's wrong with the silkworms? 20:49 < nmz787> dont they already have secretion integrated and working "P 20:49 < nmz787> ?:P 20:50 < nmz787> fenn i also think that estabilshing what step/movement resolution is acceptable 20:50 < nmz787> if the channels are any better at 1/256 or if we can't tell after 1/16 20:50 < nmz787> or if a servo (analog) is really the way to go 20:51 <@fenn> right 20:52 < kanzure> wait what's the speed difference on the xy? 20:52 < kanzure> *gantry 20:52 <@fenn> also you can test faster cutting speeds even with the same setup, just by changing the microstep setting 20:53 <@fenn> at 20kHz, maximum speed would be 3969 microns/s @ 16 microstep, or 248 microns/s @ 256 microstep 20:54 < nmz787> oh man 20:54 < nmz787> thats pretty slow 20:54 <@fenn> yeah 20:54 <@fenn> microns are small 20:54 < nmz787> so encoders 20:54 < nmz787> do you know anything about them? 20:54 <@fenn> yeah 20:55 < nmz787> how many microns per tick can we get? 20:55 <@fenn> btw it would take [37 seconds at 16 microsteps or 10 minutes] to cut your hypothetical 15cm droplet storage feature 20:56 <@fenn> 10 minutes at 256* 20:56 <@fenn> a 64 cpr encoder is pretty rough 20:57 < nmz787> (using linuxcnc it would take those times) 20:57 <@fenn> right 20:57 < nmz787> it seems stupid that its limited to khz 20:57 < nmz787> but ok 20:57 <@fenn> yeah it's a research area nobody's been able to figure out, because it involves writing new realtime linux kernels for other processors 20:58 < nmz787> well 16 uSteps is .19 microns 20:58 < kanzure> 0.19 microns is pretty good 20:58 < kanzure> i'll take that 20:59 < nmz787> 198nm is still big enough for proteins to get caught in 20:59 < nmz787> but it sounds good to start 20:59 <@fenn> unless you stop and wait at every step, inertia will blend out the jaggies 20:59 < kanzure> photolithography masks have limits too, no? 20:59 < nmz787> yeah 20:59 < nmz787> usually for feature size though 21:00 < nmz787> the nice masks are made with electron beams 21:00 < nmz787> ablating chrome 21:00 <@fenn> just because there's so much information packed onto each mask 21:00 <@fenn> it's like a giant chinese character 21:00 < nmz787> so i guess smoothness there depends on their magnet power controller 21:00 < kanzure> hm? no i mean why would a photomask not have jagged edges 21:01 < nmz787> diffraction probably smooths things out 21:01 < kanzure> hmm 21:01 <@fenn> it would have noise and quantization errors 21:01 < nmz787> but hopefully fenn is right about inertia 21:01 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.255.233.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:02 < nmz787> the step size is definitely smaller than the 25 microns of the laser i have downstairs 21:02 < katsmeow-afk> he is, just keep it moving 21:02 <@fenn> you'd need a bastard of a DAC to aim an electron beam that well 21:02 < nmz787> well its also a reduction mask 21:03 < nmz787> so its bigger then optics make the image smaller 21:03 <@fenn> yeah but how many bits do you need to specify any given position on the mask at so and so resolution 21:03 < nmz787> right, theres some math to be done to figure that out 21:04 <@fenn> they always publish photographs of the actual chip die. i've never seen a photo of a modern chip mask 21:04 < katsmeow-afk> two multiplying dacs 21:05 < diginet> wow, duckweed might just be the perfect expression system: it can double it's mass in 24 hours and up to 50% of its dry weight in protein 21:06 <@fenn> nmz787: more microstepping means we can use coarser (and less expensive, theoretically) leadscrews, but if the tradeoff is that the electronics cost more then it's a poor tradeoff 21:06 <@fenn> cnc is an expensive hobby 21:07 <@fenn> i need to pick some cheap hobbies next time 21:07 < kanzure> double the number of axes! no, triple it! 21:07 < kanzure> we will use a 6-axis laser cutter 21:07 < nmz787> f that 21:07 <@fenn> n-dimensional holographic atom laser, i choose you! 21:07 < nmz787> z is something we haven't talked about 21:08 < nmz787> we'll need to have a fine adjust on the Z 21:09 < nmz787> probably only 1/2 inch or so 21:09 < nmz787> it would be nice if it was CNC 21:09 < kanzure> how precise would it have to be to be useful 21:09 < kanzure> erm. what step size would be useful on z 21:10 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-23-160-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:10 < nmz787> depends on the focal point/numerical aperature 21:10 < nmz787> i.e. the angle of the focusing light cone 21:10 < nmz787> i haven't memorized the simple geometrical calculations to do this stuff yet 21:11 < kanzure> what's the story with max? 21:11 < kanzure> is he able to help here? 21:11 <@fenn> have you talked to max reason? 21:11 < kanzure> nathan emailed me and max 21:11 < nmz787> i know the beam diameter of the fiber laser i have is 60 microns 21:11 < kanzure> i'm not sure who max is 21:11 < nmz787> he hasn't mailed bacl 21:11 <@fenn> i read icegods.com and ready to sign up for my cult indoctrination right away 21:12 < kanzure> "We call ourselves icegods.* We are a very quiet, private and international team of dedicated scientist-engineers and benefactors who combined resources to create an extraordinary future." 21:12 < kanzure> "Our members invent, discover and develop technologies, techniques, software and devices, contribute them to our endeavor, then carefully plan and implement our projects, missions, goals. We are independent, and not affiliated with any business or government." 21:12 < nmz787> and the diameter of the CO2 laser is around 2mm 21:12 < kanzure> "Our reasons to work and collaborate are simple, but extremely rare, especially in modern times. We are creating our own environments and futures, from scratch, in ways and forms we choose, for our own benefit and enjoyment. In some ways, we are super-technological analogs of pioneers who created new futures in wilderness americas hundreds or thousands of years ago." 21:12 < kanzure> oh hell this turns into a consciousness thing? 21:13 < kanzure> so much potential :( 21:13 <@fenn> what about consciousness? 21:14 <@fenn> i thought he was working on AI to design space probes 21:14 < kanzure> "The answers are unconventional, unpublished and our confidential proprietary technologies." 21:14 <@fenn> i was going to email asking why they thought it necessary to keep development secret 21:15 < kanzure> probably because their consciousness claims are bullshit 21:16 <@fenn> probably, but that would be obvious upon demonstration 21:16 < kanzure> "We do not re-invent wheels. We adopt the best technologies whenever they are adequate, and develop our own proprietary technologies & capabilities as necessary (and rarely subcontract). The details of our projects and missions are highly confidential, and known only by our members. Therefore, we do not seek or hire employees." 21:16 < nmz787> why even have a webpage? 21:17 < kanzure> machoism 21:17 < ybit> sounds like the neighbordhood candy kids club 21:18 <@fenn> although they do not hire employees, they do seek collaborators 21:18 < ybit> fenn: first time i've seen you with the op badge 21:19 < kanzure> ugh "The nature and function of consciousness are: awareness of existence and reaction to it." 21:19 * fenn flexes his digital muscles 21:19 < kanzure> this just sounds horrible 21:19 < ybit> what are you doing doing patroling these parts? 21:19 < kanzure> i offloaded ops to fenn so that i don't have to deal with flamoot 21:19 < kanzure> it's his problem now 21:19 <@fenn> ybit: so far i've blasted a drug-addled critterding 21:19 < ybit> i didn't know he was still around 21:19 < kanzure> i think they are lying: "Furthermore, consciousness is an utterly natural process and a natural part of existence." 21:20 < kanzure> this is not rigorous and angers me 21:21 <@fenn> somebody call the ghost of bertrand russell 21:22 < virnovus> and a high school english teacher 21:22 < kanzure> why do they have to rely on consciousness to figure they need to build space probes and space habitats? 21:27 < virnovus> I'd be cool with joining a cult if they could just give me drugs that would pull me out of this depression 21:27 < kanzure> cult of prozac? 21:27 < virnovus> nah, prozac sucked, for me anyway 21:27 <@fenn> try eating less carbohydrates 21:27 <@fenn> and more exercise 21:28 < virnovus> heh, you sound like my dad 21:28 < kanzure> he is your dad 21:28 < kanzure> you just ruined the end to season 4 21:29 < virnovus> season 4? 21:30 < virnovus> i've tried exercising too, i don't know, nothing every seems to work long-term 21:30 < thylne> >_> http://i.imgur.com/Yaspn.jpg 21:31 < virnovus> i think it's settling into a routine that triggers depression 21:31 < kanzure> ybit: what are you up to? 21:33 < virnovus> whose tattoo? 21:33 -!- _0bitcount [~ulises11@213.37.255.233.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:36 < virnovus> apparently some guy signed up to a mailing list wrong, so now I'm getting emails from the Colorado Tea Party 21:37 < kanzure> nmz787: so it sounds like next steps are more clearly outlining what we need to know to get the optics right on the first pass 21:37 < ybit> kanzure: trying to figure out if i'm spreading myself too thin and if so, where 21:38 < kanzure> orr find someone who can help us out on that front 21:38 < kanzure> ybit: too thin? you're doing like nothing? 21:38 < kanzure> i thought you stopped school again? 21:41 < klafka> arrgh 21:42 < klafka> i can't think about this clustering stuff atm 21:42 < kanzure> klafka: throw it into hierarchical k-means and call it a night 21:42 < klafka> i am going to do hierarchial clustering based off something like a word ontology 21:45 < diginet> does anyone know what the record is in terms of g/L for recombitant protein expression? 21:46 -!- He||eshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:48 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:58 < nmz787> kanzure fenn: i still don't see the motion situation solved 21:58 < kanzure> "Lock wait timeout exceeded; try restarting transaction (code: 1205, sql state: HY000" 21:59 < kanzure> nmz787: what's unresolved? besides z 22:00 < nmz787> the spreadsheet still lists those expensive stepper controllers 22:01 < nmz787> we started talking servos, and didnt get anywhere 22:01 < kanzure> fenn: pinnnng 22:01 < ybit> you're doing like nothing? 22:01 < ybit> i'm afraid of that 22:01 < kanzure> ybit: yeah i thought you went to school, and now you're not? 22:01 < kanzure> i mean, doing things other than school can count 22:01 < ybit> school ends in 3-4 weeks 22:02 < kanzure> but i haven't heard from you 22:02 < ybit> school means nothing to me 22:02 < kanzure> oh oh. i see 22:11 < nmz787> fenn: do we want the larger version from polulu that has reverse-power protection and onboard volage regulators? 22:12 < nmz787> fenn: the extra $7 per driver seems worth it 22:23 < nmz787> fenn: also what kind of plate are we bolting this to? I guess this depends on if we're using CO2 or NIR lasers 22:23 < nmz787> I'll get a sheet of black acrylic tomorrow for testing 22:24 < kanzure> aren't there other advantages to a co2 laser? 22:24 < kanzure> i know a co2 laser will be more costly (both in price and in maintenance) 22:24 < nmz787> can cut more materials i guess 22:24 < katsmeow-afk> prolly won't crack if hot 22:24 < kanzure> sounds good in my book? 22:24 < nmz787> but that's not really something we're concerned about i guess 22:25 < kanzure> will NIR diodes do acrylic/glass? 22:25 < nmz787> won't crack if hot doesnt make sense to me 22:25 < katsmeow-afk> large solid lasers can crack if heated or cooled too fast 22:25 < katsmeow-afk> gas vaoprs don't 22:25 < nmz787> thats what i have to find out... NIR probably wont do clear acryluc 22:26 < kanzure> i mean, we don't want to be replacing the co2 laser every 6 months 22:26 < nmz787> well the tubes are pretty cheap for # of hours 22:26 < nmz787> 1000 hours or so for $100 - $200 22:27 < kanzure> oh that's not bad i guess 22:27 < nmz787> fenn kanzure: if we're using a CO2 laser, it would be easiest if we used a longer plate 22:28 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:29 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:29 < kanzure> wb 22:29 < nmz787> the MIC6 from mcmaster is pretty expensive, on par with the thorlabs tapped plates 22:30 < nmz787> fenn kanzure: the laser tube itself is 0.7 meters long 22:30 -!- ybit is now known as fiddlybits 22:30 < nmz787> so if we wanted it inline with the gantry, we'd need a meter long plate 22:31 -!- fiddlybits is now known as ybit 22:38 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-255-247.revip4.asianet.co.th] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:40 < kanzure> "The rise and fall of Celera as an ambitious competitor of the Human Genome Project is the main subject of the book The Genome War by James Shreeve, who followed Venter around for two years in the process of writing the book. A view from the public effort's side is that of Nobel laureate Sir John Sulston in his book The Common Thread: A Story of Science, Politics, Ethics and the Human Genome." 22:42 < kanzure> wait.. when did quest acquire celera? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_Diagnostics 22:48 < katsmeow-afk> hmm, and wikipedia stopped using https 22:49 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:50 < ybit> katsmeow-afk?.. seems to be using it still.. 22:50 < katsmeow-afk> [00:42] wait.. when did quest acquire celera? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_Diagnostics <<== plainly NOt https 22:51 < ybit> throw in an s and it will work 22:51 < ybit> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test e.g. 22:51 < katsmeow-afk> the last month all the wikipedia links i saw were https 22:52 < katsmeow-afk> not "does https work" or not, but allthe links were https 22:52 < ybit> maybe someone was using the https everywhere plugin 22:52 < katsmeow-afk> why wouldi care what someone was doing? i aren't 22:54 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-23-160-52.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:54 -!- d3nd3 [~dende@cpc10-croy17-2-0-cust245.croy.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00 < Stee|> hey kanzure, you up? 23:17 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 23:20 * ybit is too timid to make a joke with fenn patrolling the channel 23:26 -!- He||eshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:28 -!- capiscuas [~capiscuas@ppp-115-87-255-247.revip4.asianet.co.th] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:30 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:45 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:46 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:46 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:47 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:50 -!- AdrianG [~amphetami@unaffiliated/amphetamine] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:53 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-80-91.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Wed Apr 11 00:00:30 2012