--- Log opened Mon Apr 16 00:00:00 2012
--- Day changed Mon Apr 16 2012
00:00 < Mokbortolan_> hehehe
00:00 < Mokbortolan_> "politics" is just an emergent behavior of the human mind
00:01 < strangewarp> Glorious
00:01 < strangewarp> I made a flamoot Markov-bot on another server 8)
00:01 < Mokbortolan_> discussing issue-level politics is pointless
00:01 < sylph_mako> :D
00:01 < sylph_mako> but flamoot's not that incoherent.
00:02 < sylph_mako> So merely :]
00:02 < sylph_mako> and +1 Mokbortolan_. +1 so hard.
00:03 < Mokbortolan_> I have a hard time talking to "normal" people about politics
00:04 < Mokbortolan_> they always go on about X or Y is right or wrong, and I keep going on about their tactics in terms of the underlying psychology
00:04 < sylph_mako> I suppose an issue becomes a political mire when the uninformed masses become fearful enough that the motives of those who engage with in issue are unjust, that they're willing to step in and fight against them without coming to know the issue intimately themselves.
00:05 < sylph_mako> Ideally we should never have people who don't know the issues intimately involved, but, unfortunately, sometimes it will appear justifiable to get involved on summaries.
00:06 < sylph_mako> To be driven by summaries and editorializations from voices of authority, rather than first hand judgement.
00:09 < sylph_mako> social individualist: You can do what you like, because the system will stop you doing anything too terrible.
00:15 < Mokbortolan_> well, the problem as I see it, is that people are humans
00:15 < Mokbortolan_> logic and reason don't really enter into it most of the time
00:16 < Mokbortolan_> it's mostly just people justifying the decisions they've already made
00:17 < Mokbortolan_> "the social brain" is really interesting, and not least because I have one to experiment with :)
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00:18 < sylph_mako> I was just detailing why a rational agent with limited intel might misengage, wasn't I. My friends often tell me I'm too optimistic.
00:19 < sylph_mako> I think they're right. I think I'd be a lot less optimistic if I spent more time around normal people.
00:19 < jrayhawk> Mokbortolan_: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ if you look at the region-specific charts, the flattening is rather common to winner-takes-all election models
00:24 < sylph_mako> On the other hand, there's a rational basis for pursuing confirmation bias as well, isn't there.
00:25 < sylph_mako> It's a time-saving measure.
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05:06 < delinquentme_> HEWDEH
05:06 < delinquentme_> HOWDEH*
05:11 < kanzure> hi nmz787
05:11 < kanzure> hi delinquentme_
05:13 < delinquentme_> i guess doing electrical
05:13 < delinquentme_> quickest way
05:13 < delinquentme_> is to do the shit eh?
05:15 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/news/homegrown-labware-made-with-3d-printer-1.10453
05:19 < kanzure> http://spacehack.org/category/open-source http://mach30.org/ http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/407 and whoever the hell earthlight is
05:23 < nmz787> hi
05:24 < nmz787> http://www.phys.ksu.edu/people/faculty/flanders-b.html
05:30 < nmz787> delinquentme_:  HEWDY HEWW!
05:31 < delinquentme_> yeh haha
05:34 < nmz787> prof is using peanut butter as example for HPLC stationary phase
05:35 < delinquentme_> i LIKE THE PART WHERE ACADEMICS PASS ME AROUND
05:35 < delinquentme_> they dont know what to do
05:35 < delinquentme_> academia, government huge corporations
05:35 < nmz787> i was actually thinking i wanted to try HPLC with ground peanuts a few weeks ago
05:35 < delinquentme_> they all specialize in everyone elses responsibility !
05:35 < nmz787> (as the packing)
05:36 < delinquentme_> i was about to ask ... to discover they're carbon?
05:37 < nmz787> well you would use atomic absorbtion chromatography to do that
05:37 < nmz787> where you just burn your sample to see the atomic spectrum
05:38 < nmz787> i literally mean grinding peanuts to a powder and packing that into a column, then passing your sample over that column
05:43 < delinquentme_> wait so you're using the peanuts as a consumable
05:43 < delinquentme_> not what you're actually analysing huh
05:46 < nmz787> ya
05:46 < nmz787> it was just a thought, i haven;t tried it
05:46 < nmz787> figure George Washington Carver would be proud
05:47 < kanzure> how much does a hplc column go for on ebay
05:47 < nmz787> not sure
05:48 < nmz787> can get expensive i know that
05:48 < nmz787> dunno if ebay is the go-to source for columns either :)
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05:54 < kanzure> nonsense! everything is better when from ebay
05:56 < kanzure> hplc columns
05:56 < kanzure> socks? yep
05:57 < kanzure> sandwiches? check, better from ebay
05:57 < delinquentme_> ^^^^
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05:59 < delinquentme_> so whats up with the cutter kanzure nmz787
06:02 < nmz787> i need to make a post on a physics forum about the laser
06:02 < kanzure> i think we still haven't decided on the bluray diode vs. a co2 tube laser
06:02 < nmz787> i had been communicating with one guy via email, but he wasn't answering my questions directly
06:03 < nmz787> the last thing i asked simon was if the bluray drive lens fouls, I don't think its possible to replace, so is he expecting me to use drives disposably
06:03 < nmz787> and his reply was, i dont think it will foul, but try it
06:04 < delinquentme_> so you're worried about burning out the lenses?
06:04 < delinquentme_> like they're not horrible expensive
06:04 < nmz787> i mentioned the versalaser optics for $3k getting 38.1 micron spot, and he said that price sounded about right.... so physics forum could help us piece together the optics on our own, for maybe 1/3 the price hopefully
06:04 < nmz787> nah not burning out, but getting smoky/reacted with
06:05 < nmz787> bluray drives have a really close working distance
06:05 < nmz787> basically he was saying the easiest thing would be to use one of those, and maybe replace the diode with a higher pwered one.... because the optics would be all figured out and taken care of
06:05 < nmz787> but i think his perspective is el-cheapo science tricks
06:06 < nmz787> i don't think he actually think I want to do professional quality work
06:06 < nmz787> or that I am scared of the high cost of custom precision
06:07 < nmz787> he makes a good point that bluray drives are commodity and cheap because of that
06:07 < nmz787> already have small spot size
06:07 < nmz787> but anytime I asked how to do it with custom optics, he didn't answer me other than saying it would be expensive and to try a drive first
06:11 < delinquentme_> are there mechanical engineering IRc channels?
06:11 < delinquentme_> i need a clevarr way to completely eliminate dust from belt degredation
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06:18 < kanzure> delinquentme_: haha you're in it
06:18 < kanzure> but if our mechanical answers suck, use #reprap and #linuxcnc
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06:25 < kanzure> hi chandoo
06:25 < chandoo> hello
06:25 < chandoo> kanzure:-) how is life
06:26 < kanzure> pretty great
06:26 < kanzure> chandoo: what brings you here?
06:27 < chandoo> bio hacking, dns sequencing open hardware
06:27 < chandoo> bio hacking, dna sequencing open hardware
06:28 < delinquentme_> sounds about right
06:28 < chandoo> what you guyz chat and do for fun here
06:28 < delinquentme_> robawtz
06:28 < delinquentme_> hackz
06:29 < delinquentme_> you know for life and bio
06:31 < kanzure> ah sorry, we only do dna synthesis, sequencing is.. well ok i guess we can do sequencing too
06:31 < nmz787> lol
06:31 < nmz787> we'll have to pull sequencing into the mix eventually
06:32 < nmz787> to sequence DNA you basically need a 60 cm long capillary about 50 microns diameter, filled with polymer gel, and a spectrometer on the end looking for the fluorophores on the DNA molecules
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06:34 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone.
06:34 < delinquentme_> thats sanger right?
06:34 < delinquentme_> howdeh JayDugger
06:34 < nmz787> yep
06:35 < nmz787> i think sanger has a lot of potential still
06:35 < nmz787> until nanopore takes over, if it works, at least
06:36 < nmz787> i have some ideas for low voltage sanger seq, envisioning an iPhone sequencer for field use
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07:15 < kanzure> 07:14 < oiaohm_> brocktice: blender has quite a good physic engines.  Most insane addon to bender will make it caculuate the sound water will produce running over the object
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07:25 < delinquentme_> thats pretty nuts
07:25 < kanzure> delinquentme_: you know what would be better? calculating the sound of water flowing over some hairy nuts
07:26 < delinquentme_> unique way of telling me you havnt washed in a while?
07:26 < delinquentme_> MUH NUTS SO HAIRY
07:26 < delinquentme_> WATER NO FLOW
07:27 < delinquentme_> nix that "THERE IS NO WATER"
07:27 < kanzure> well i was trying to go for 'american machoism' but that's just downright unsanitary man
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07:39 < delinquentme_> lololol
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08:03 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, is micro USB a solid way to communicate between microcontrollers?
08:04 < delinquentme_> or is there tons of slow overhead to get the usb libs working?
08:04 < ThomasEgi> micro usb is just a plug-type
08:05 < phryk> delinquentme_: From what I've heard the 'normal' way people would go about this would be doin rs 232 over a serial line.
08:05 < phryk> Then again I have almost 0 experience with µcs :P
08:05 < delinquentme_> so effectively just the hardware
08:05 < ThomasEgi> usb generaly is quite a lot of overhead. there are atmegas with usb controllers buildin
08:05 < ThomasEgi> there it's okay
08:05 < delinquentme_> yeah RS 232 is ugly
08:05 < ThomasEgi> for most μc you are best of with rs232 on TTL levels. and a rs232-usb adabter
08:06 < delinquentme_> if i've got a primary MC and a number of slave MCs
08:06 < ThomasEgi> communication between microcontrollers is a different story
08:06 < ThomasEgi> you have plenty of options there.
08:06 < delinquentme_> and I pin out 12 microUSB connectors on the primary
08:06 < ThomasEgi> why microusb?
08:07 < delinquentme_> all the slave micros I've looked at have them
08:07 < delinquentme_> and they're nice and small
08:07 < delinquentme_> normal USB is also an option
08:07 < ThomasEgi> you looked at breakout/development boards then?
08:07 < delinquentme_> but I'd like the machine to come across as recognizable as possible in all its hardware
08:08 < delinquentme_> i've only looked at a few
08:08 < delinquentme_> but I know I'm going to need something like a dev to get 12 USBs onto
08:09 < ThomasEgi> you are.. not making too much sense atm. can you try to explain what exactly you want to do (as general project idea, leaving out the technical implementation)
08:09 < delinquentme_> http://imgur.com/cdTPb
08:09 < delinquentme_> theres a schematic i made
08:09 < nmz787> uc to uc is best wit i2c or spi protocol
08:10 < delinquentme_> basically desktop >> router >> multiple machines ( with a 1x main mc and 12 slave MCs )
08:10 < delinquentme_> uc?
08:10 < ThomasEgi> .. why so many μc??
08:10 < delinquentme_> modular
08:10 < ThomasEgi> but why??
08:11 < delinquentme_> well its designed to be able to use a single one of the cores
08:11 < delinquentme_> or 12
08:11 < ThomasEgi> from what it looks you want to controll a lot of stepper motors right?
08:11 < delinquentme_> is that specifically bad ?
08:11 < delinquentme_> yeah
08:11 < ThomasEgi> you dont need tons of μc then
08:11 < delinquentme_> so to call it a mc might be a mis understanding
08:11 < delinquentme_> basically i need a unit
08:12 < delinquentme_> PCB MC XYZ
08:12 < delinquentme_> that controls each core
08:12 < delinquentme_> which reports to the main micro
08:12 < nmz787> just need lots of gpio or a muxer
08:12 < delinquentme_> gpio?
08:12 < delinquentme_> general process IO?
08:12 < ThomasEgi> purpose
08:13 < ThomasEgi> do you have dedicated stepper driver ic's?
08:13 < delinquentme_> planning on it but those arent picked out
08:13 < nmz787> allegro chips r good
08:14 < delinquentme_> but thats something you put on a separate MC?
08:14 < ThomasEgi> microcontrollers dont drive motors
08:14 < ThomasEgi> they only tell the driver what to do
08:14 < ThomasEgi> the μc is ways to weak
08:14 < delinquentme_> so what do you call a PCB with a driver chip on it?
08:15 < ThomasEgi> a stepper driver
08:15 < ThomasEgi> some come as a single chip.
08:15 < ThomasEgi> some are the H-bridge only, some include a logic that allows you to use direction and stepping to controll the motor.
08:16 < delinquentme_> yeah I've seen chips like the easy driver atc
08:16 < delinquentme_> etc**
08:16 < ThomasEgi> the whole design depends on what kind of driver you pick
08:17 < nmz787> polulu.com has allegro breakout boards
08:17 < delinquentme_> i think i've actually got a few of those drivers too
08:17 < ThomasEgi> in most cases you can controll a a whole lots of steppers with a signle microcontroller
08:17 < nmz787> h bridge is also called full bridge
08:17 < delinquentme_> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182
08:17 < delinquentme_> yeah I've got that guy
08:18 < ThomasEgi> the you only need directon and step signal
08:18 < ThomasEgi> that's 2 pins per motor
08:19 < ThomasEgi> you can easily drive 12 steppers on a single microcontroller with that.
08:19 < delinquentme_> modular
08:19 < ThomasEgi> if you get one with more giop you may end up with even more.
08:19 < delinquentme_> not optimized
08:20 < nmz787> ?
08:20 < nmz787> wat u mean?
08:20 < ThomasEgi> if you want it modular, you can use shift registers. with parallel load
08:20 < ThomasEgi> like a 74hc595
08:20 < delinquentme_> so its adding additional complexity
08:21 < ThomasEgi> that makes it very modular
08:21 < ThomasEgi> actually.. it doesnt
08:21 < delinquentme_> yeah but im the guy programming it
08:21 < ThomasEgi> doesnt make a difference.
08:21 < nmz787> using 1 controller is less complex
08:21 < delinquentme_> ok so 1MC
08:21 < delinquentme_> to control 12 of these drivers
08:22 < delinquentme_> you're saying program in something to allow me to control 12 steppers w this driver
08:23 < nmz787> u can use 12 drivers
08:24 < nmz787> if u dont use a shift register it wont be synchronous tho
08:24 < nmz787> unless u use multiple cores or run way faster than u need to operate
08:25 < nmz787> which in latter only appears synch, but really isnt
08:26 < nmz787> ti c2000 controllers are optimized for motor control
08:26 < nmz787> but that may be wayyy more than u need
08:27 < delinquentme_> TLDR on "shift register" plz
08:28 < nmz787> tldr means?
08:28 < nmz787> sry
08:28 < delinquentme_> too long didnt read
08:28 < nmz787> in class
08:28 < delinquentme_> haha like a 1 line summation
08:28 < delinquentme_> on what they are
08:28 < nmz787> serial in, parallel out
08:28 < nmz787> or opposite
08:30 < delinquentme_> serial commands?
08:30 < delinquentme_> nmz787, you wanna just do the electronics for this
08:31 < delinquentme_> ill focus on capital you can teach me how youd wire it
08:31 < nmz787> lol, wat is it?
08:31 < _F7_> are you trying to build an android? What is this?
08:31 < _F7_> I've never seen a machine with more than a dozen steppers
08:32 < _F7_> And I've seen some machines
08:32 < nmz787> multi liquid handler
08:32 < _F7_> I've taken one apart
08:32 < kanzure> should just use a micro liquid handler anyway
08:32 < nmz787> acc to his img schematic
08:32 < nmz787> ya i agree
08:33 < nmz787> uFluidics!
08:33 < _F7_> It was run off of a stacked electropnumatic/hydraulic system
08:33 < _F7_> overcomplicated if you ask me
08:33 < _F7_> but cheaper to scale and easier to control
08:34 < delinquentme_> yeah liquid handler
08:34 < delinquentme_> speed to market man!
08:34 < _F7_> It was an automated cell counter
08:34 < delinquentme_> take a tech they already grok and make it so stupid cheap they'd be tards not to buy
08:34 < delinquentme_> undercut tecan
08:34 < _F7_> seemed to use inflourescence and some trick chemistry
08:35 < kanzure> does tecan make money?
08:36 < ThomasEgi> sry for the absence. delinquentme_ with enough gpio you dont need shift registers to controll 12 steppers. all you need is 2 pins per stepper.
08:36 < delinquentme_> does pharma need more robots?
08:37 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, using 595 shift registers allows you to add a global clock strobe. so you can step hundrets of motors in perfect sync.
08:38 < nmz787> 595 is a chip series?
08:38 < ThomasEgi> it is a logic chip.
08:38 < ThomasEgi> a serial in, serial+parallel out.
08:38 < delinquentme_> so yeah i've got 2 pins to control each of those drivers .. so total of 48 pins for controlling the steppers
08:39 < ThomasEgi> with a output register
08:39 < ThomasEgi> in that case you can get 24 steppers
08:39 < ThomasEgi> on a single microcontroller
08:40 < ThomasEgi> if you go with the 74hc595. you only need 3 pins. it is more modular and the code is cleaner.
08:41 < ThomasEgi> not sure if it makes a lot of sense to go this way tho.
08:41 < ThomasEgi> your biggest problem will be to supply the actual commands to the microcontroller. fast enough.
08:42 < delinquentme_> to the MC from the desktop you're saying
08:42 < ThomasEgi> sorta
08:43 < ThomasEgi> the motors usualy are driven with precise timing. so in most cases the entire programm for driving the motors is running on the microcontroller.
08:43 < ThomasEgi> not sure if that applies to microfluids too.
08:43 < delinquentme_> but its then not a good idea to have a primary micro controlling slave micros?
08:43 < nmz787> ftdiusb to serial can do mbits easily
08:44 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, bitrate isnt the problem. timing is
08:44 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, that only distributes the problem. but doesnt simplify it.
08:44 < nmz787> queue?
08:45 < nmz787> sd card imo is good n cheap
08:45 < nmz787> 1 wire comm
08:45 < delinquentme_> slave MC polls for code ... waits for commands from the Primary mc
08:45 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, the point is. you have to actually drive 24 steppers motors.
08:45 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, but doesnt the slave MC have its own processor?
08:45 < ThomasEgi> that means. you have to know direction, the time between steps, and the total ammount of steps
08:45 < delinquentme_> and if the primary MC is doing nothing but sending out short bit-based protocols?
08:46 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, waiting deadlocks all steppers connected.
08:46 < delinquentme_> waht?
08:46 < ThomasEgi> so your master-microcontroller has to supply the data at the right time.
08:46 < delinquentme_> that doesnt make sense
08:46 < ThomasEgi> a microcontroller cant do multitasking
08:47 < ThomasEgi> it can only do one thing at a time.
08:47 < delinquentme_> so it sends out a protocol and moves onto checking all the other registers
08:47 < ThomasEgi> you can have interrupts from the internal timers, but if your master cant supply the new data, it wont move a bit
08:47 < delinquentme_> corresponding to all the slave MCs
08:47 < delinquentme_> if a slave MC has something to report back it pops its register and the Primary controller reads that output
08:47 < nmz787> propeller can multitask
08:48 < delinquentme_> otherwise if no registers are in a popped state the main mc will sequentially read the 1-12 registers over and over and await new commands from the desktop
08:48 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, you cant just remote-access registers in other microcontrollers
08:49 < delinquentme_> ok register is the wrong word
08:49 < ThomasEgi> when you send data around. one microcontroller is busy sending. and the other is receiving
08:49 < delinquentme_> designate a connection between the primary and each of the slaves
08:49 < delinquentme_> high = new information
08:49 < delinquentme_> low = pass onto next MC
08:49 < ThomasEgi> ... during the actual data transmittion...they will still be busy
08:50 < delinquentme_> so you're saying that 1) Primary sends command to slave 2) slave stops all processing 3) reads input 4) does stuff
08:50 < delinquentme_> perfect we're working in a state machine
08:50 < ThomasEgi> yeah
08:51 < delinquentme_> like that sounds ideal to me?
08:51 < nmz787> ttyl
08:51 < ThomasEgi> yeah. but the thing is. your slave serves many steppers.
08:51 < ThomasEgi> while it waits for the info on one of them. the others can deadlock.
08:52 < delinquentme_> each slave is going to either be 1) controlling a stepper or linear actuator 2) checking the value on a few sensors
08:52 < ThomasEgi> waitwait
08:52 < ThomasEgi> you want to get feedback data too??
08:52 < delinquentme_> yeah
08:52 < ThomasEgi> all in one circuit?
08:52 < delinquentme_> is that crazy?
08:53 < delinquentme_> like were running at how many Hz
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08:53 < ThomasEgi> ... well crazy is something else but it does make stuff more difficult
08:53 < delinquentme_> yeah i guess i should have labeled the string pot as a sensor
08:53 < ThomasEgi> i thought the pot was for controlling motor current or so
08:53 < delinquentme_> each slave needs to control 2 steppers, 1 linear actuator, 1 string potentiometer and 1 physical switch
08:54 < delinquentme_> ohhhhh
08:54 < delinquentme_> nah its for location
08:54 < ThomasEgi> in that case. you are no longer "controlling"
08:54 < delinquentme_> there are 12 slaves in the system
08:54 < ThomasEgi> instead, you are regulating
08:54 < delinquentme_> and an additional 4 string pots and 4 steppers
08:54 < delinquentme_> regulating
08:54 < ThomasEgi> like giving your slave a target to reach
08:55 < delinquentme_> ok can you explain a bit more about that
08:55 < delinquentme_> yeah
08:55 < delinquentme_> thall work
08:55 < ThomasEgi> usualy. you drive steppers blindly.
08:55 < ThomasEgi> you know the mechanics and stuff. calculating the neccessary steps. and simply force them on the motor.
08:55 < ThomasEgi> with no feedback at all
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08:56 < ThomasEgi> with maybe an endstop-switch
08:56 < delinquentme_> no rotary encoder on the steppers?
08:56 < ThomasEgi> no
08:56 < delinquentme_> i've been told thats kind of a "you always do that"
08:56 < ThomasEgi> they are steppers already
08:56 < delinquentme_> which can miss a step
08:56 < ThomasEgi> if you tell it to make one step. it will make one
08:56 < delinquentme_> ideally you have sufficient power not to
08:56 < delinquentme_> or get bigger steppers
08:56 < ThomasEgi> (given you stay within operational parameters)
08:57 < delinquentme_> but does it hurt that you've got multiple verifications?
08:57 < ThomasEgi> yeah. it does :D
08:57 < delinquentme_> how so?
08:57 < delinquentme_> more things to program?
08:57 < ThomasEgi> it will cause you headaces when designing the circuit, logic, and code
08:57 < kanzure> delinquentme_: you should consider using linuxcnc
08:57 < ThomasEgi> so it will hurt you
08:57 < kanzure> you don't need 1 MHz stepping so you can just use linuxcnc
08:57 < _F7_> Yo-yo potentiometers are way expensive. I can't imagine displacement is very much?
08:58 < delinquentme_> 160 for 3' @ sub mm accuracy
08:58 < _F7_> It's for the linear actuator, right?
08:58 < delinquentme_> nah its to locate microplates along a 3' span
08:58 < delinquentme_> https://github.com/delinquentme/LH002/raw/master/images/LH002_full_01.png << along the z axis in this pic
08:58 < _F7_> ah
08:59 < _F7_> to what accuracy?
08:59 < delinquentme_> they need to hit a space of 7mm
08:59 < delinquentme_> so i think encoders @ sub mm will do
08:59 < delinquentme_> thoughts?
08:59 < _F7_> that is pretty rough
08:59 < _F7_> so easy
08:59 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, heres the thing w the encoders on steppers .. when CMU roboticists say you should always measure them
09:00 < delinquentme_> like I find that a smart thing to do
09:00 < _F7_> Have you tried to source them yet?
09:00 < delinquentme_> and like lets be honest ... that is *the source* of your movement
09:00 < delinquentme_> yeah
09:00 < delinquentme_> celesco
09:00 < delinquentme_> gotta call the dude later today to see if hell send me free samples :D
09:00 < _F7_> Yeah I know, but did you get a quote?
09:00 < _F7_> ah, cool
09:00 < delinquentme_> yeah
09:00 < delinquentme_> $160
09:00 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, you are not doing robotics here.
09:00 < delinquentme_> ....
09:00 < _F7_> apeice?!?
09:01 < delinquentme_> yeah
09:01 < _F7_> fffff
09:01 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, this is not robotics?
09:01 < _F7_> you're looking at mm accuracy in a three inch span
09:01 < ThomasEgi> well not to the extend robotics applies
09:01 < _F7_> wait
09:01 < _F7_> three feet?
09:01 < delinquentme_> _F7_,  3 foot
09:01 < delinquentme_> 3' ive always used as 3 feet :D
09:01 < ThomasEgi> in robotics you could expericence big loads that my overload your motors capabilities, thus losing steps
09:01 < delinquentme_> 3" inches
09:02 < ThomasEgi> in your case. you are just driving a very well known system. so you can make sure no steps are lost.
09:02 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, so your argument is make the steppers bigger to guarantee you dont miss a step
09:02 < ThomasEgi> nope
09:02 < delinquentme_> " solve it  with steppers intead of sensors"
09:02 < ThomasEgi> just make sure you stay within the operational parameters
09:02 < ThomasEgi> there is no need to over-dimension your steppers.
09:02 < ThomasEgi> just get them right.
09:03 < delinquentme_> so no rotary encoders on steppers
09:03 < ThomasEgi> in your case there simply is little reason to assume that your motor will be overloaded, thus losing steps
09:03 < delinquentme_> like I can see the string pot covering the placement easily enough
09:03 < ThomasEgi> you can use them. but there is no need.
09:03 < _F7_> Ah, I have a middle-solution
09:04 < delinquentme_> um
09:04 < delinquentme_> shit
09:04 < ThomasEgi> if you lose steps, then you need a bigger motor anyway.
09:04 < _F7_> Use properly sized steppers and a microswitch to home them in
09:04 < ThomasEgi> as you have no peak-loads
09:04 < delinquentme_> i need to source the peristaltic pump
09:05 < _F7_> There are pretty decent ones inside of swiffer wetjets..
09:05 < delinquentme_> haha so you've said :D
09:07 < delinquentme_> so the peristaltic pumps will come with or without encoders but thats depending on the supplier
09:08 < delinquentme_> http://www.welco.net/wp10a_e.html these look pretty
09:11 < ThomasEgi> those are DC motors
09:11 < ThomasEgi> not steppers
09:11 < ThomasEgi> without encoders you are totaly lost with DC
09:11 < _F7_> twenty bucks, crack open a wetjet
09:11 < _F7_> stick a rotary encoder inline. done
09:12 < _F7_> well, not done
09:12 < _F7_> but there's some hackery
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09:13 < n_bentha> http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nchem.1313.html
09:14 < kanzure> "Integrated 3D-printed reactionware for chemical synthesis and analysis"
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09:22 < kanzure> there's also another article floating around today..
09:22 < kanzure> "Frustrated ALS Patients Concoct Their Own Drug"
09:24 < kanzure> oh nevermind. this is just a patientslikeme spin piece.
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09:29 < delinquentme_> HOWDEH kidz
09:30 < n_bentha> hey kanzure
09:30 < n_bentha> did u get that hail in h-town?
09:31 < kanzure> h-town?
09:38 < delinquentme_> this is cool http://www.labcyte.com/
09:42 < delinquentme_> umm price collusion is illegal yes?
09:42 < n_bentha> nvm
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09:42 < delinquentme_> how about product collusion?
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09:42 < kanzure> they will want "IP"
09:43 < n_bentha> sonice liquid handling so cool
09:43 < n_bentha> sonic*
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09:46 < delinquentme_> I guess I could outsource support contracts to big supplier
09:46 < delinquentme_> thats open source
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09:50 < delinquentme_> kanzure, has anyone coined the term ajar-source hardware?
09:53 < delinquentme_> http://www.gilson.com/en/Pipette/Products/45.265/Default.aspx#.T4xOYKT3sVk
09:53 < delinquentme_> Can we agree yet that this is a machine task?
09:57 < kanzure> everyone /agrees/ of course
09:57 < kanzure> but nobody wants to buy the $15k machine to do it
09:59 < delinquentme_> how cheap can we get it
09:59 < delinquentme_> IZ DUH QUESTSHUN
09:59 < audy> just use undergrads
09:59 < delinquentme_> MARKETING MATERIALS
10:00 < delinquentme_> im writing them
10:00 < delinquentme_> audy, and this is why academia isnt the target market
10:00 < delinquentme_> because replace grad students with machines
10:00 < audy> hmm this thing really costs $15K?
10:01 < delinquentme_> not only lessens the university's ability to employ the people they train but it ALSO lessens the chance that a prof can make one of his grads his wife!
10:01 < audy> I have a "system" for repetitive pipetting work
10:01 < delinquentme_> audy, nah i dont think the LED tracker costs 15g
10:01 < delinquentme_> hold your breath?
10:01 < audy> Like rotating the tubes after each step
10:02 < audy> my PI married his graduate student
10:03 < delinquentme_> there you go
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10:03 < delinquentme_> dont tell me that srsly my heads big enough
10:03 < audy> I'm confused
10:04 < delinquentme_> audy, about what
10:04 < audy> the size of your head
10:04 < delinquentme_> ohh hahah its an american saying for having a big ego
10:04 < delinquentme_> or thinking you know everything
10:05 < delinquentme_> audy, where you from?
10:05 < audy> I know but was it the rotating of the tubes or the marrying of the grad student that caused in the inflation?
10:05 < audy> delinquentme_ vermont.
10:05 < delinquentme_> oh
10:05 < delinquentme_> hahah
10:05 < delinquentme_> the marrying of the PI to the student
10:05 < audy> oh
10:05 < audy> yeah that's common
10:05 < delinquentme_> like academia is a system onto itself
10:05 < delinquentme_> and its more about showing how "intelligent" you are
10:06 < delinquentme_> shit
10:06 < delinquentme_> i shouldn't have said that hahah!
10:06 < delinquentme_> anyhoo!
10:06 < audy> It's just a job
10:06 < audy> anyways…
10:06 < audy> does anyone know a good way to quickly record audio onto a lot of casette tapes?
10:07 < audy> I need an industrial casette tape recorder
10:07 < audy> maybe this is the wrong channel.
10:08 < kanzure> you could pay a bunch of people to do it for you ?
10:08 < kanzure> or you could buy a lot of recorders
10:10 < audy> I meant the equipment really
10:10 < delinquentme_> #electronics would probs have some solid guesses
10:12 < audy> ty
10:19 < katsmeow-afk> buy some 1980's high speed duplicators
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10:20 < Utopiah> (ad) http://www.travellingsalesmanmovie.com
10:20 < katsmeow-afk> the top end models would do 64x normal speed
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10:40 < delinquentme_> nmz787, I need a 4 million sqf solar sail by next week
10:40 < delinquentme_> and i need to check on you  progress in a few hours :D
10:40 < delinquentme_> OMW!
10:41 < delinquentme_> in all seriousness what are the aspects of a company
10:41 < delinquentme_> to approach for partnering
10:41 < kanzure> what are you partnering for?
10:41 < delinquentme_> i think open source is sufficiently scary
10:41 < delinquentme_> money, street cred and maybe some bio consulting
10:42 < delinquentme_> i fear their software stack though
10:42 < delinquentme_> they're gonna be BLAHHH ASP ORACLE
10:42 < kanzure> no i mean, what are you offerring a potential partner
10:42 < delinquentme_> .NET!
10:42 < delinquentme_> insight
10:42 < delinquentme_> conehos
10:42 < kanzure> your insight is weak and anyone who has thought about lab robotics can say the same things :p
10:42 < kanzure> no?
10:43 < delinquentme_> nah i wouldnt say that
10:44 < delinquentme_> most lab roboticists are conditioned for the existing system
10:44 < delinquentme_> but part of that is doing the shit
10:44 < delinquentme_> partner with labs who have the crazy sensors
10:44 < delinquentme_> partner w tecan for their pressure sensitive pipetting
10:45 < delinquentme_> build the rest of the machine
10:45 < delinquentme_> use their pipettes
10:45 < delinquentme_> warmer?
10:47 < kanzure> why would they partner with you, again?
10:47 < kanzure> do you mean "buy from tecan"?
10:49 < delinquentme_> correct
10:49 < delinquentme_> if you've got ajar-source hardware
10:49 < delinquentme_> and they're seeing that what they can do with 60g
10:49 < delinquentme_> i can do with 10
10:50 < delinquentme_> and the market supports this ajar source more than closed
10:50 < delinquentme_> easy!
10:52 < kanzure> the cost to develop, build or make their product is not $60k
10:53 < kanzure> to develop it they probably spent a few million because they hired some engineers who said so
10:53 < kanzure> to build it they are probably paying a few hundred bucks in parts
10:53 < kanzure> assembly/testing- not sure- could be anything
10:54 < delinquentme_> oh for sure i know their costs are massive
10:54 < delinquentme_> i mean at production this could be substantially cheaper than 15k
10:54 < delinquentme_> IDK how much
10:54 < delinquentme_> that requires nmz787 and ThomasEgi
10:55 < nmz787> yo
10:55 < ThomasEgi> kanzure is pretty much right about that
10:55 < delinquentme_> i mean it would be sweet to be able to hire like 10 of us wouldn't it
10:55 < ThomasEgi> development is expensive. and if you dont sell in numbers. you have to get your money back with high prices
10:56 < delinquentme_> totally i agree they've spent way too much
10:56 < delinquentme_> true dev is expensive
10:56 < kanzure> delinquentme_: i don't understand why they would hire 10 of us?
10:56 < delinquentme_> hahah no
10:56 < kanzure> that's already at least a million/year
10:56 < delinquentme_> they'd say " Ok yes we need a way to transition into the open source world"
10:56 < delinquentme_> these guys have a concept
10:56 < delinquentme_> ehh as a startup slightly less
10:57 < delinquentme_> but yeah thats once its going
10:57 < kanzure> i doubt tecan wants to transition into being an open source hardware company
10:57 < delinquentme_> 5 years in without question you could make 100 per
10:57 < delinquentme_> for sure
10:57 < delinquentme_> maybe not them
10:57 < delinquentme_> but someone will
10:57 < kanzure> how do you know that?
10:57 < delinquentme_> but im saying tecan could be incentivized
10:57 < kanzure> with what
10:57 < ThomasEgi> if there is lots of money to be made. people will make money.
10:57 < delinquentme_> selling their OEM pumps
10:57 < kanzure> why would we want their pumps
10:58 < delinquentme_> make big robot and sell tons of their little pressure pumps
10:58 < kanzure> who cares- another proprietary hardware company, big deal..
10:58 < nmz787> i've always heard production in tech/lab industry is generally about 1/10th the selling price
10:58 < delinquentme_> but what im saying is you get to lead the 900 lb gorilla
10:58 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, true
10:58 < delinquentme_> but HOW that money is made
10:58 < delinquentme_> what if we make the walmart of biotech hardware
10:58 < ThomasEgi> by selling stuff as expensive as possible.
10:59 < delinquentme_> like walmart is a bad name to use but sell on volume
10:59 < ThomasEgi> then you need customers.. lots of them
10:59 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, this is more marketing and business
10:59 < delinquentme_> I'll handle it
10:59 < ThomasEgi> as far as i can see. there simply arent enough
10:59 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, could that be because everyone thinks biotech is SUUUPER hard?
10:59 < ThomasEgi> nope
10:59 < delinquentme_> what if you go in with a team of kids without degrees in this shit
10:59 < delinquentme_> and say *LOOK WHAT WE DID*
11:00 < delinquentme_> pretty good example no?
11:00 < ThomasEgi> because most people rather spend their time sitting in front of tv's eating potatoes. instead of biohacking
11:00 < delinquentme_> make science approachable!
11:00 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, why is that
11:00 < kanzure> science is approachable
11:00 < ThomasEgi> bcause humans are lazy
11:00 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, so then you make it easy
11:00 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, are humans also curious?
11:00 < kanzure> anyway, most VC firms will not dump money on a group of people without phds
11:00 < ThomasEgi> curious enoguh to switch tv channels
11:00 < kanzure> at least biotech VC
11:00 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, do humans have a deep rooted will to live?
11:01 < delinquentme_> Do our lizard brains tell us to run the fuck away from that Trex?
11:01 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, lazyness wins . at least in our modern society
11:01 < delinquentme_> I think so.
11:01 < kanzure> you just got super philo on me
11:01 < kanzure> you were talking about walmarts of biotech
11:01 < nmz787> i am a 'hacker' because i like being lazy
11:01 < kanzure> and now you're on to tv lazyboy chairs
11:01 < kanzure> look, stay focused
11:01 < delinquentme_> kanzure, wholistic approach
11:01 < nmz787> the exact reason i'm doing mircofluidics research and not macrofluidics
11:01  * delinquentme_ passes the joint
11:01 < nmz787> because macro requires me to be less lazy
11:01 < kanzure> delinquentme_: i think you need to think harder
11:02 < kanzure> nobody is going to hand you $50 mil on a whim
11:02 < delinquentme_> hardly
11:02 < kanzure> you just don't have that sort of name recognition
11:02 < delinquentme_> you dont need 50 million
11:02 < delinquentme_> you need 100g
11:02 < delinquentme_> at MOST
11:02 < ThomasEgi> not saying everyone is lazy.. but most are. and if you want to sell stuff for low prices you need to sell in masses. but masses wont buy it because they are lazy.
11:02 < ThomasEgi> that simple
11:02 < kanzure> ok, we have 100g no problem
11:02 < kanzure> stop worrying about money, jesus
11:02 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, lolol you're rolling so much stuff together here
11:03 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, you dont need to sell to everyone ... what about scientists, academics and hobby biologists ALL want thsi machine
11:03 < delinquentme_> do you think that makes enough of a market to pay a few kids?
11:03  * delinquentme_ thinks so
11:03 < ThomasEgi> they wont. they have very diverse interests. and only a few will actually need one.
11:03 < delinquentme_> kanzure, give me money so i can go start cutting parts :D
11:03 < ThomasEgi> and that's about as many as we have right now
11:03 < kanzure> delinquentme_: ok what parts do you want to cut/why?
11:03 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, only a very few people will ever need computers
11:04 < ThomasEgi> true.
11:04 < delinquentme_> kanzure, i need 3grand
11:04 < delinquentme_> main rail + 1 LH core
11:04 < delinquentme_> 3 grand i can get started
11:04 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, most people buy one anyway. because they are lazy and want to be entertained
11:04 < delinquentme_> lolol
11:04 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, what if ...
11:04 < ThomasEgi> what if - is not part of reailty.
11:05 < delinquentme_> we begin sequencing everyones DNA .. and we develop software which will allow us specific benefits by customizing drugs that we dose outselves on
11:05 < kanzure> delinquentme_: 3 grand for what
11:05 < delinquentme_> is that close enough to reality for you?
11:05 < ThomasEgi> great idea. they will make a tv-show and entertain lazy people with it.
11:05 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: are you feeling ok?
11:05 < delinquentme_> kanzure, a " main rail " and a single 8 channel liquid handling core
11:05 < kanzure> delinquentme_: ok. why the hell does that cost $3k?
11:06 < delinquentme_> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtOqyz8P_fJ0dFN1TDdCMlgySFBHTHA3clZBUkdCNnc#gid=0
11:06 < delinquentme_> theres the parts list
11:06 < kanzure> your parts are probably wrong
11:06 < kanzure> drive belts? :/
11:06 < delinquentme_> and?
11:06 < ThomasEgi> point is. if it takes more then pressing 4 buttons at most. the average idiot you encounter at wallmart will turn away again.
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11:06 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, you're being a bittery betty
11:06 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, how many people play video games
11:07 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, i just met too many fools on this planet.
11:07 < delinquentme_> how much button pressing is that
11:07 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, bout 5
11:07 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, well then go be foolish with them
11:07 < delinquentme_> you're here in the company of educated driven individuals
11:07 < ThomasEgi> even hardcore gamers usualy go with less than 8 buttons
11:07 < delinquentme_> if you're going to say contrarian stuff you need to be specific and realistic
11:07 < ThomasEgi> most casual games go with 3 to 5
11:08 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, if you want to justify your own laziness do it elsewhere
11:08 < delinquentme_> seriously im trying to do shit here
11:08 < ThomasEgi> so am i
11:08 < delinquentme_> you're trying to tell me this cant be done
11:08 < ThomasEgi> just giving advice that counting on the average fool out there is not a good idea.
11:08 < kanzure> i think it's safe to conclude that ThomasEgi really really hates your walmart/biotech idea
11:08 < delinquentme_> and i dont care how hard you push I will not hear it
11:09 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, I said about 5 minutes back that I dont need to be MTV to make money
11:09 < ThomasEgi> in that case i missed that information
11:09 < delinquentme_> nor do I need to be on par with rhianna as a house hold name to make a difference
11:09 < delinquentme_> I dont need *EVERYONE*
11:09 < delinquentme_> i just need *ENOUGH*
11:10 < kanzure> ok so again.. why are you using belts
11:10 < ThomasEgi> delinquentme_, good luck then.
11:10 < delinquentme_> and there are fierce intelligent individuals out there who are put HUGE money into this with the belief that thell extend lives
11:10 < delinquentme_> and I'm with those people ... not the ones who would rather sit back and say " CANT BE DONE "
11:10 < delinquentme_> kanzure, umm thats just the design
11:10 < delinquentme_> also they're fast
11:10 < delinquentme_> that can be changed
11:11 < delinquentme_> huge steppers are also an option
11:11 < kanzure> yes but the design influences cost
11:11 < kanzure> i don't see why to drop $3k on this
11:12 < delinquentme_> but! yes reducing costs obv is a solid pursuit
11:12 < kanzure> i think a solid design is important
11:13 < delinquentme_> true
11:13 < delinquentme_> so you're just saying put in an acme threaded rod or a ball screw
11:13 < kanzure> i would trust someone else's design instincts over my own
11:14 < kanzure> you should look at fenn's liquid handler designs
11:14 < delinquentme_> fenn_, you around?
11:14 < delinquentme_> de donde es liquid handler
11:14 < nmz787> cycberspace
11:15 < kanzure> fenn_: yeah, where are you anyway?
11:15 < delinquentme_> also i want modular cores which hook up to a central unit :D
11:15 < delinquentme_> then I be happy
11:15 < kanzure> fenn hides behind his rotating sleep schedule, but i just need to install a cron job on his laptop that publishes his sleep log
11:15 < delinquentme_> also acceleration through resonance point
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11:15 < delinquentme_> and if someone wants me to check their diff eqs on that I can
11:16 < delinquentme_> ThomasEgi, apologies for reaming :D
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11:18 < nmz787> delinquentme_:  tell us again why you want to do macro liquid handling instead of micro? whats your intended application?
11:19 < delinquentme_> nmz787, IMO theres fewer things that need to be done
11:19 < delinquentme_> and like people have liquid handlers now
11:19 < delinquentme_> so its not this big tech jump for them
11:19 < delinquentme_> its like same thing >> cheaper
11:19 < delinquentme_> people are slow .. so like
11:19 < delinquentme_> this is something they understand
11:20 < delinquentme_> and just I know it will sell
11:20 < kanzure> do they want to buy it ?
11:20 < delinquentme_> margins alone itll sell
11:20 < delinquentme_> good question
11:20 < delinquentme_> how do you find out
11:20 < kanzure> you ask them
11:20 < kanzure> get a list of 40 people (not us)
11:20 < delinquentme_> do you ask them or do you tell them that their colleagues have 2
11:20 < delinquentme_> hahah its the faster horse problem kanz
11:20 < kanzure> nope
11:21 < kanzure> a car didn't *exist* at the time
11:21 < kanzure> liquid handling machines already exist.
11:21 < delinquentme_> haha ok youre right
11:21 < delinquentme_> the thing is
11:21 < delinquentme_> do we NEED 40
11:21 < delinquentme_> i say we need no more than 1
11:21 < kanzure> yes, you need to know how many people will buy one
11:21 < delinquentme_> guess who that 1 will be
11:21 < delinquentme_> some big ass company that needs to see shit
11:21 < delinquentme_> do you wanna go around pedaling to individual labs?
11:22 < kanzure> that's how you do sales
11:22 < delinquentme_> whos your market here?
11:22 < delinquentme_> its one way !
11:22 < kanzure> if you are selling then you have a sales cycle
11:22 < delinquentme_> yes but what im asking is who would you want to sell to
11:22 < delinquentme_> schools fuck that
11:22 < delinquentme_> we've established that PIs need a pool of hot grad students to pick from
11:22 < kanzure> you've got it backwards
11:22 < delinquentme_> so they dont want that replaced
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11:23 < kanzure> you should find the customers first, then figure out what they need
11:23 < delinquentme_> we need to go to industry
11:23 < kanzure> not "i have a product, and no customers, wah"
11:23 < delinquentme_> kanzure, if they have liquid handlers
11:23 < delinquentme_> does that not mean
11:23 < kanzure> delinquentme_: explain to brownies what you are trying to sell
11:23 < delinquentme_> they need liquid handlers?
11:23 < delinquentme_> brownies, i have this stuff
11:23 < delinquentme_> that you put into brownies
11:23 < delinquentme_> kanzure, TLDR
11:24 < delinquentme_> whats more convincing ... walking up to these guys after getting 4g to proto and saying here
11:24 < delinquentme_> stress test it and tell me if you want to buy
11:24 < kanzure> brownies: delinquentme wants to build el-cheapo liquid handling machines for lab automation
11:24 < delinquentme_> or calling them up saying " so im thinking about building"
11:24 < kanzure> brownies: so, i told him to go find 40 people who will buy one
11:24 < kanzure> i mean, let me clarify
11:24 < delinquentme_> kanzure, we dont want 40 people though
11:24 < delinquentme_> we want 1 BASF
11:24 < kanzure> he wants to get funding to do that, heh
11:24 < delinquentme_> we want 1 Thermo Fisher
11:24 < delinquentme_> we want 1 JCVI
11:24 < delinquentme_> agreed?
11:24 < delinquentme_> or like 5 of them
11:24 < kanzure> delinquentme_: why would thermo fischer pay for you to do it ?
11:25 < kanzure> i just don't get it
11:25 < brownies> a series of tubes, you say?
11:25 < kanzure> brownies: indeed sir, except an automated series of tubes
11:25 < delinquentme_> because I called them and they've got an automation dept who does assembly for research labs
11:25 < delinquentme_> and " we're always looking for low-cost alternatives"
11:25 < kanzure> ok.. so why didn't they buy 20?
11:25 < brownies> yes, but when you say "i have this crazy idea, i built it, no one's used it ever" that's high-risk => high-cost to them
11:25 < delinquentme_> Thermo has inhouse engineers who take the existing equip and attempt to automate shit
11:26 < delinquentme_> brownies, thats why you let them stress test it
11:26 < delinquentme_> actions = louder than words
11:26 < delinquentme_> always
11:26 < kanzure> again, why didn't they buy 20?
11:26 < kanzure> if you're 10% the cost?
11:26 < delinquentme_> kanzure, what am I selling
11:26 < kanzure> i thought you were selling your machine!
11:26 < kanzure> what
11:26 < brownies> you "let" them spend a bunch of money on said idea? how nice of you.
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11:27 < brownies> i suggest the onus is on *you* to de-risk it *for* them
11:27 < delinquentme_> kanzure, they wan to test
11:27 < delinquentme_> want*
11:27 < kanzure> ok. so let them test?
11:27 < delinquentme_> they want tech demos and videos
11:27 < delinquentme_> on what machine?
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11:27 < kanzure> the one you built
11:27 < delinquentme_> nedz proto
11:27 < delinquentme_> thats piddly
11:27 < delinquentme_> thats not even a LH
11:27 < delinquentme_> if i was selling a single plate dispenser ok
11:28 < delinquentme_> im selling a LH machine
11:28 < delinquentme_> sooo
11:28 < delinquentme_> im 10 miles from a western union
11:29 < delinquentme_> nmz787, if I may .. I think that I can go directly to prototyping with just an EE
11:29 < kanzure> ok soo you have no deal with thermofischer
11:29 < delinquentme_> sounds simple to you doesnt it?
11:29 < kanzure> you need to go find someone who will buy it
11:29 < delinquentme_> kanzure,  you want me to sell it
11:29 < delinquentme_> before I prototype it?
11:29 < kanzure> yep
11:29 < delinquentme_> hahaha
11:29 < kanzure> that's how it goes
11:29 < delinquentme_> sometimes
11:30 < kanzure> you find customers who agree to buy it
11:30 < kanzure> brownies: unless you know a better way
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11:31 < delinquentme_> kanzure, what im saying is that I want to deal with 1000 lb gorillas
11:31 < delinquentme_> ( yes they keep getting bigger )
11:32 < delinquentme_> and to effectively do that
11:32 < delinquentme_> or more succinctly " the easiest way "
11:32 < delinquentme_> is to get 3000 .. build the shit
11:32 < delinquentme_> and say " play with it "
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11:33 < kanzure> you should ask them what work they would want done on lh001
11:34 < kanzure> and then get them to agree to order some # of them once that work is completed
11:34 < kanzure> i mean, you get them to do that order upfront
11:35 < delinquentme_> the lh001 doesnt get the emo response
11:35 < delinquentme_> like its cute
11:35 < delinquentme_> I want impending
11:35 < delinquentme_> let that shit sell itself
11:36 < kanzure> nothing "sells itself"
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11:36 < ThomasEgi> wait. did i get that wrong or are you trying to sell lab equipment by adding cuteness to the device?
11:37 < brownies> he's going to super-glue $3000 worth of googly eyes to it
11:37 < brownies> kanzure is right, you need to find people who want what you have before you blow a bunch of cash building it
11:37 < brownies> and if the thing you want to build is complicated and expensive, then that's only *more* true.
11:38 < nmz787> delinquentme_: kanzure is right that thermo fisher has their own engineers... and likely won't outsource buying from a no-name company unless you're offering something novel
11:39 < delinquentme_> nmz787, ummmm im not sure I follow?
11:39 < delinquentme_> yes they have engineers
11:39 < delinquentme_> but that doesnt mean they're not working on super automaton 5000
11:39 < delinquentme_> where I've got the silly little toy
11:39 < delinquentme_> kanzure, do apple products?
11:40 < delinquentme_> you're telling me that all sales is pivotal around dig grabbing and belly rubbing
11:40 < delinquentme_> DICK*!
11:40 < delinquentme_> grabbing*
11:40 < delinquentme_> some people can make logical evaluations
11:41 < delinquentme_> brownies, we've establsihed that people want it
11:41 < delinquentme_> theres a market for them no?
11:41 < delinquentme_> people buy beamers
11:41 < brownies> i think that what you've established is that "there exist people who want it"
11:41 < delinquentme_> people need the utility of transport
11:41 < brownies> and what you need to establish is "here are 20 of those people, and their phone numbers, and their written agreement to test my duct-taped prototype"
11:41 < delinquentme_> so theres probably going to be people who need kias too
11:44 < kanzure> brownies: it would be pretty cool if 20 written agremeents would be enough for angel investing
11:44 < kanzure> or N<=1000
11:46 < brownies> who said angel investing?
11:46 < brownies> i thought you wanted a *business*
11:47 < kanzure> delinquentme just wants money
11:47 < delinquentme_> brownies, umm i dont follow
11:47 < delinquentme_> I want to build a robot to talk for me
11:47 < delinquentme_> please comprehend the nuances of that statement ;D
11:47 < brownies> i thought you wanted to sell series of tubes to people
11:48 < delinquentme_> lolol
11:48 < delinquentme_> well tubes transistors and motors
11:48 < delinquentme_> + duct tape
11:48 < delinquentme_> brownies, you're an angle arent you
11:48 < delinquentme_> you should fund me
11:48 < kanzure> an angle? haha
11:48 < brownies> i am rather acute
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11:49 < nmz787> you're acutey
11:49 < nmz787> acutey pi
11:50 < brownies> and he's a bit obtuse, how complementary
11:51 < brownies> hm, took just over 20 minutes before i could steer the convo to math puns, not bad.
11:52 < delinquentme_> brownies, tangests = bad
11:52 < delinquentme_> tangents!!
11:53 < delinquentme_> is anyone else on biocoder?
11:53 < delinquentme_> id they jsut enable friending or something?
11:53 < nmz787> is biocoder that microsoft library?
11:53 < kanzure> yes :/
11:55 < kanzure> delinquentme_: maybe you should become a salesman at tecan
11:55 < delinquentme_> http://www.biocodershub.net/community/
11:55 < delinquentme_> haha
11:56 < delinquentme_> under the table .. between you and me .. this is the machine you really want?
11:56 < nmz787> ?
11:56 < nmz787> we want microfluidics
11:56 < nmz787> hah
11:58 < delinquentme_> well you want them to be able to do service on them too
11:58 < delinquentme_> ( with their existing techs )
11:58 < delinquentme_> its good for their business no?
11:59 < kanzure> oh shit what?
11:59 < kanzure> i think i just emailed john carmack
11:59 < kanzure> <johnc@idsoftware.com> yep, crap, definitely him
12:00 < nmz787> who
12:00 < nmz787> s
12:00 < nmz787> that
12:00 < nmz787> ?
12:00 < kanzure> john carmack is your god
12:00 < kanzure> doom? quake? armadillo aerospace?
12:01 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carmack
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12:02 < nmz787> cool
12:02 < nmz787> what you say?
12:03 < delinquentme_> 4 random characters
12:03 < kanzure> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:35 PM, John Carmack <johnc@idsoftware.com> wrote:
12:03 < kanzure> > My two attempts at modest prizes have not given a lot of hope for this.  $2k
12:03 < kanzure> > for a static engine test of a high performance engine has stood for over a
12:03 < kanzure> > decade:
12:03 < kanzure> > http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/misc/hppa2.htm
12:03 < kanzure> > The initial $5k for the 100kft Micro Prize eventually got boosted up over
12:03 < kanzure> > $10k with matching donations, but it has been over a year since it was first
12:03 < kanzure> > offered, and it still hasn’t been fully claimed, although I was happy to
12:03 < kanzure> > give half-credit to Qu8ke.
12:03 < kanzure> > doing tethered liftoffs.  The X-Prize was a grand thing, but aside from
12:03 < kanzure> > Scaled, the rest of the field was a bit out of touch with the reality of the
12:04 < kanzure> > problem (Armadillo included).
12:04 < kanzure> > I don’t hold out much hope for getting worthwhile things accomplished with
12:04 < kanzure> > four figure prize sums, but I probably will entertain additional prizes of
12:04 < kanzure> > this magnitude.  I feel comfortable with the notion of styling them as
12:04 < kanzure> > “paying for the public report of something you would want to do anyway” more
12:04 < kanzure> > than a prize that is supposed to motivate people.
12:04 < kanzure> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com> wrote:
12:04 < kanzure> > Is there any particular reason keeping it as a prize is more useful than
12:04 < kanzure> > just directly paying someone $x,000 to do the work? Besides the obvious
12:04 < kanzure> > and the whole competition seemed a little fuzzy at times- why not just pay
12:04 < kanzure> > answer that it's very hard to find quality work for $x,000. I was putting
12:04 < kanzure> > together gadaprize.org, a $20k and $80k prize fund for RepRap related work,
12:04 < kanzure> > people the $10k to go do the work and make a better PCB? etc. Obviously, the
12:04 < kanzure> > technical realities are different, but the thinking is somewhat the same.
12:05 < nmz787> i see
12:05 < delinquentme_> Re: Duh
12:05 < delinquentme_> lol
12:06 < delinquentme_> oh nm that was the reply
12:07 < delinquentme_> http://boingboing.net/2012/01/04/paypal-if-you-dont-like-the.html
12:10 < nmz787> paypal is a bunch of scumbags
12:11 < nmz787> they shut down my account and wouldn't tell me why
12:11 < nmz787> even though all i buy is stuff like electronics and car parts from ebay
12:11 < delinquentme_> http://oi44.tinypic.com/2m2xpa1.jpg
12:11 < delinquentme_> TIL atheism is stigmatized
12:11 < nmz787> my girlfriend, who lives with me, also had hers shut down... because she is associated with me
12:12 < delinquentme_> yeah paypal is there to protect the larger portion of their market
12:12 < delinquentme_> the customers
12:12 < nmz787> even though she only ever buys clothes from ebay
12:12 < nmz787> i used to sell a lot on ebay
12:12 < delinquentme_> like kanzure said under wear is better on ebay
12:12 < nmz787> was one of their platinum members or whatever
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12:19 < delinquentme_> it is what it is
12:19 < delinquentme_> they're wildly sucessful
12:20 < delinquentme_> ok i need to think through selling without having a product
12:20 < delinquentme_> ill tt u kids in a bitskis
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13:10 < delinquentme> kanzure,  how many OKs du want
13:11 < kanzure> get 10-20 people to say they will buy it
13:12 < delinquentme> since you're not going to get a hard contract out of that how about interest
13:13 < delinquentme> " we would be interested in testing a model "
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13:17 < kanzure> delinquentme: no i mean a signed piece of paper
13:17 < kanzure> this happens more often than you might think
13:18 < delinquentme> really now
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13:20 < delinquentme> kanzure, tell me more
13:20 < kanzure> brownies: i dunno, you have a link?
13:21 < brownies> it's called a non-binding letter of interest
13:21 < kanzure> superbrownies to the rescue
13:21 < brownies> for your purposes, an email from the lab manager saying "we have cleared out a space on our lab bench for your tubes" would also suffice.
13:22 < kanzure> dunno.. cleaning is a very huge commitment
13:22 < kanzure> even when you get a new grad student, they don't clean
13:22 < brownies> heh. well, you know what i mean. a concrete statement that they will *use* it, not just "yea bro that sounds cool"
13:23 < brownies> i'd frame it as a testing period of a particular length, so you can try to hammer down some dates with them
13:23 < kanzure> brownies: yes but also the meta-purpose of doing all that too
13:24 < kanzure> actually, i have a better question
13:25 < kanzure> i have a list of strings in ruby that i want to sort by an arbitrary metric, can i pass a block to sort
13:25  * kanzure looks at the documentation
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13:25 < kanzure> ah sort_by
13:25 < kanzure> fine then.
13:26 < delinquentme> brownies, to clarify this is a liquid handling robot
13:26 < delinquentme> basically a faster, simpler version of a tecan
13:27 < kanzure> it almost doesn't matter what the product is, i think
13:27 < delinquentme> well clearly they've got money to throw around
13:27 < delinquentme> i've got the schematics
13:27 < kanzure> who has money to throw around?
13:27 < delinquentme> tecan thermo
13:27 < delinquentme> hamilton
13:27 < delinquentme> gilson
13:27 < kanzure> they already sell handlers man
13:28 < delinquentme> yes cannabalism is ok
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13:28 < delinquentme> this is the same reason BMW sells a 1 series
13:28 < delinquentme> its not a BMW but its a BMW
13:32 < nmz787> who engineered it if not bmw?
13:33 < nmz787> and for that matter, if some other company engineered it, BMW doesn't buy them, they bought them out
13:34 < nmz787> why would the LH ppl buy a cheap version from you, when they're making the same thing already... they have the power to buy in volume, so they probably already spend less than you to build their equipment
13:34 < nmz787> if they wanted a cheap line, it would be straightforward to implement, and they keep their existing customer base happy because its software compatible
13:34 < kanzure> (also they own all the patents and can probably sue you out of existence; but you should ignore this reason)
13:35 < nmz787> like you said, its nothing new, just cheaper, faster, simpler
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13:38 < nmz787> definitely seems like a viable product, but i think you're just undercutting engineering costs, which (most) big companies just aren't willing to do
13:39 < jrayhawk> the one series is not just a crappy family hatchback with a BMW badge on it, despite what the automotive press was claiming before it was released
13:40 < jrayhawk> the world needs more small, simple RWD cars. apparently subaru and toyota agree, 'cause they're trying to enter that market now.
13:41 < nmz787> why RWD?
13:41 < kanzure> the market for oscar meyer weinerdog cars is much greater than they think.
13:41 < nmz787> (i live in snow climate)
13:42 < delinquentme> nmz787, they're not making the same thing already
13:42 < delinquentme> and i guess you're looking at this like its easy for them to build new machines
13:42 < delinquentme> how many employees do they have
13:42 < delinquentme> what new technology have they integrated to allow the machine to operate better
13:43 < delinquentme> where are those investments? in the shit that already works for them ? nope!
13:43 < delinquentme> its in the sensors, in the  peripherals they attach
13:43 < delinquentme> buy those from them
13:43 < delinquentme> implement the rest in faster cheaper ways
13:43 < delinquentme> I can guarantee they spend millions in R&D for a single machine
13:44 < jrayhawk> RWD, aside from the HP losses inherent in an FR setup, is less limiting to driver skill.
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13:45 < jrayhawk> This is particularly important in the snow, though there are weight distribution issues, there, too.
13:45 < nmz787> wait, HP loss in FWD vs RWD?? never heard of that
13:45 < jrayhawk> More exhaust, more driveshaft. The difference is typically pretty low; like %2-5.
13:46 < nmz787> how is there more exhaust or driveshaft? FWD only has halfshafts
13:46 < nmz787> RWD has axle and driveshaft
13:46 < jrayhawk> Yes, RWD has more driveshaft, and thus more weight to spin.
13:46 < delinquentme> is there a specific reason to use I2C between MCs instead of just running wires between the two?
13:47 < nmz787> my 4x4 S10 blazer has just as much exhaust as my TDI jetta
13:47 < nmz787> I2C is a wire
13:47 < jrayhawk> Oh, sorry, yeah.
13:47 < delinquentme> apparently IC2 is for low speed peripherals .. when I can simply connect open pins and say " If pin 1 == high do X "
13:47 < nmz787> ooo, wait, what is FR
13:47 < jrayhawk> I just woke up and I'm a bit dumb. I was thinking partially of mid-engined setups.
13:48 < nmz787> i thought you were saying more HP loss in FWD
13:48 < jrayhawk> No.
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13:48 < nmz787> ahh, ok, makes sense now
13:48 < nmz787> I do have fun whipping around the ocaissional corner in RWD
13:49 < nmz787> spinning around on snow in 4x4 is pretty cool too, for some reason i just love the idea that all 4 wheels are spinning free
13:49 < jrayhawk> "Oversteer is superior to understeer because you don't get to see the tree that kills you"
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13:50 < nmz787> its pretty dumb how the U.S. doesnt have more diesels
13:50 < jrayhawk> Um. The U.S. runs on diesel.
13:50 < nmz787> not commuters
13:50 < nmz787> well, not personal commuters
13:50 < jrayhawk> Oh, they don't matter that much.
13:51 < nmz787> i just dont like seeing women driving around unscratched pickup trucks
13:51 < nmz787> come on, haul some full sheets of plywood or get a mini
13:51 < kanzure> i need to buy a forklift for mom
13:51 < nmz787> lol
13:51 < kanzure> loading/unloading plywood is a pain
13:51 < nmz787> i can believe that
13:52 < jrayhawk> Drivetrain inefficiency from Subaru-like AWD systems is atrocious
13:52 < jrayhawk> it can hit 25%
13:54 < jrayhawk> I assume your S10 is a somewhat more efficient live axle setup.
13:54 < nmz787> my dad has an old 84 chevy... something... has the same engine (2.8L) as my S10 blazer 4x4... when his car was on the road it got  at least 5-8mpg more than my blazer... i attribute that mostly to the front diff... esp since i have 5sp and he had auto
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13:55 < jrayhawk> Dayum.
13:55 < jrayhawk> Might also be lighter.
13:55 < jrayhawk> And, depending on how well it was taken care of, might still be getting lighter as bits of it fall off.
13:55 < nmz787> lol
13:56 < katsmeow-afk> irritates me that the Cooper Mini costs 10x as much as the same sized car made in India, but in the usa we cannot buy the car made in India
13:56 < nmz787> i used to have a 250cc suzuki ninja, got 55-65 mpg... but with the jetta getting ~44 in city and up to 50 on highway... it was easy to sell off the bike for the extra hauling and safety
13:57 < jrayhawk> I swear I've seen Tata Nano lookalikes here...
13:57 < katsmeow-afk> eitehr way, the cars that small aren't made in usa by a use corp
13:57 < nmz787> i was reading last night that some folks get an avg of 60 in the same engine series of TDI that I have
13:58 < nmz787> mainly thanks to air dams in the front grills I think
13:59 < audy> jrayhawk probs smart car
13:59 < katsmeow-afk> a guy not far from me has been using scrap wood to run his trucks ever since gas went up to $1.25/gal
13:59 < jrayhawk> No, I can tell the difference between a Fortwo and a Nano.
14:01 < jrayhawk> haha, oh yeah, i forgot disc brakes are illegal in India
14:01 < nmz787> i cant believe discs are illegal
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14:01 < nmz787> my gf is in india, i will have her check the family sedan
14:02 < brownies> why are they illegal?
14:02 < jrayhawk> Unfair advantage or something.
14:02 < _F7_> My dad gets 50 MPG in his '00 new beetle
14:02 < _F7_> It's a TDI
14:02 < nmz787> yup
14:02 < _F7_> Bypassing the EGR does a lot for performance
14:03 < brownies> unfair advantage? in not crashing your car?
14:03 < kanzure> brownies: everyone does their part
14:03 < _F7_> TDI Volkswagon's in general are super hackable
14:03 < nmz787> from 99.5 to 2004.5 had some of the best TDI engines
14:03 < nmz787> yeah i have the EGR turned off in software
14:04 < katsmeow-afk> i wonder if the discs are illegal because they expect the hydraulics won't be maintained, and manually operated discs don't work worth a darn
14:04 < nmz787> even cleaned the intake before driving cross country last summer
14:04 < _F7_> I turned a coupling and just straight up bypassed it
14:04 < _F7_> It's just a straight pipe out, no backpressure
14:04 < brownies> the only explanation i can think of is that, if your brakes are way better, you can stop faster, and that might increase the % chance of accidents behind you
14:04 < nmz787> lol, my muffler is pretty much swiss cheese, so i almost have a straight pipe
14:05 < _F7_> hahaha
14:05 < nmz787> i didnt find anything on google re illegal discs in india
14:05 < nmz787> i will def ask my gf to check
14:05 < katsmeow-afk> my real muffler fell off, but the catalytic convertor makes a fine muffler
14:05 < nmz787> well, i know for certain indian motorcycles have disc brakes
14:06 < _F7_> I want to try and rig a valve on my exhaust so I can pass emissions, but at the flip of a switch I can just dump the exhaust and get crazy efficiency on the highway or something
14:06 < _F7_> as an added bonus, I'll be doing a muffler bypass so the switch will also increase engine noise
14:06 < _F7_> which means all the asshat drunken houston jaywalkers will think I just stomped the accelerator
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14:08 < nmz787> what do you have?
14:08 < jrayhawk> Yeah, I'm trying to find a useful source for that.
14:08 < nmz787> the TDI is still damn quiet with practically no muffler as compared to what my gasser would sound like
14:08 < _F7_> I've got a hand-me-down '98 lexus ES-300
14:09 < bkero> whoo supra
14:09 < bkero> but automatic :(
14:09 < nmz787> http://www.cardekho.com/specs/Tata_Indigo/Tata_Indigo_LS-specification.htm
14:09 < nmz787> thats what she has, disc in front, drum rear
14:09 < _F7_> No TDI, my roomate wants to get ambitious and build an XR-3 though so I'll be filling my vehicle hacking quota
14:10 < nmz787> cool
14:10  * bkero has been doing wastegate surgery on his Genesis Coupe.  Just finished turboback exhaust on a '12 Golf TDI
14:10 < nmz787> havent heard of the XR3
14:10 < _F7_> It's a scratch-build car
14:10 < bkero> Reminds me of an XR4
14:10 < bkero> (ti)
14:10 < _F7_> just a moment
14:10 < nmz787> i rode around in a lotus kit car a few years back
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14:11 < nmz787> had a 900 or 1200cc bike engine... was close as hell to the ground, and man, it could take turns like no other
14:11 < _F7_> http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm
14:12 < _F7_> The hackerspace has a CNC plasma cutter and a heliarc machine, so most of the tough part is done.
14:12 < nmz787> pretty sweet, a bit like a delorean
14:12 < nmz787> wonder how the power is
14:12 < _F7_> really good
14:13 < _F7_> We're planning to leave off the electric side
14:13 < _F7_> It's just expense and weight
14:14 < nmz787> 2 seater or just 1
14:14 < nmz787> ?
14:16 < nmz787> ahh 2
14:18 < nmz787> hmm, the engine at generator use is only ~20 hp....
14:18 < bkero> 1480lb, damn that's heavy
14:18 < nmz787> might be a little more fun to try and throw a TDI in there, and use the electric rear for highway cruising
14:20 < nmz787> i thought the future was going toward series hybrids
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14:21 < _F7_> oh, we're leaving the electric off for a sub 1000 lb
14:23 < bkero> TDI engine is a lot huger and heavier
14:23 < bkero> B&S makes some powerful light generators, I've used those in conversion cars I've done.
14:24 < bkero> 8" Advanced DC motor, Sevcon Millipak controller, Zivian charger
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14:25 < jrayhawk> 1480 is about the weight of old Lotuses, and those only have the one measly battery!
14:27 < bkero> My electric mk i MR2 ended up being around 1200lb and that used a lot of recycled EV1 batteries and the original transmission
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14:28 < jrayhawk> The MkI weighs about 2400 pounds and I am reasonably sure that the engine and transmission are not half of that weight.
14:28 < katsmeow-afk> my electric VW Beatle was a series wound bolted to the oem tranny
14:28 < jrayhawk> or maybe it's 2300
14:30 < bkero> jrayhawk: they're 2200-2300 with fluids.  engine is about 250lb, transmission is about 175lb, everything else in the engine bay is over 100lb too
14:30 < nmz787> for a while i wanted to design an all-weather velo fairing for my 250 ninja
14:30 < bkero> not to mention the ridiculously heavy fuel tank in the center channel of the car
14:31 < bkero> radiator, heater core, and ac heat exchanger are heavy too
14:32 < bkero> I'm actually building an electric bicycle now.  750W brushed DC motor, eBay special ghetto PWM chopper controller, twist-grip throttle, golf cart 2x10A 36V SLA gel-cel battery
14:32 < bkero> fantastic stuff
14:34 < nmz787> nice
14:34 < nmz787> bbl, class
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14:40 < kanzure> hrm i need more chemistry buddies in here
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15:59 < kanzure> ENKI-][: hey
15:59 < ENKI-][> hi
15:59 < kanzure> what's up?
15:59 < ENKI-][> i couldn't remember the name of the channel, hence the whois ;-)
15:59 < ENKI-][> i just ordered an EEG machine for BCI
16:00 < ENKI-][> one of the cheapo ones intended for video games... the NIA, the one with the neurosky chip
16:00 < ENKI-][> any suggestion on how to use it to start off with, once it arrives?
16:12 < kanzure> ENKI-][: openvibe
16:12 < kanzure> also, you'll probably want to trash it
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16:14 < ENKI-][> i'll want to trash it?
16:15 < delinquentme> balls!
16:15 < delinquentme> are there any EEs present?
16:16 < delinquentme> I'm looking for examples functions of HDLs
16:16 < ENKI-][> i probably won't need openvibe, on account of having already modified someone's NIA interfacing code.
16:16 < ENKI-][> example functions in an HDL, delinquentme? like VHDL code?
16:17 < delinquentme> Hardware description languages
16:17 < delinquentme> i saw VHDL mentioned
16:18 < ENKI-][> there's VHDL, which is ada, and verilog, which is pascal
16:19 < delinquentme> I guess when i first heard about it I thought it was a replacement for passive components
16:19 < delinquentme> bu effectively it allows you to reprogram what happens within the chip
16:20 < delinquentme> also : http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/04/nicira/
16:26 < ENKI-][> delinquentme: that's not at all accurate. an HDL is a high level language a subset of which is compiled into a format that represents components and their interconnections. this lower level form is used occasionally in the fabrication of ICs (though if I recall there's typically layout work done by bald ape wetware), but it can be simulated directly in slower than realtime by dedicated hardware such as
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16:26 < ENKI-][> FPGAs and PLDs, which have the ability to programatically modify interconnections between existing components in such a way to emulate hardware in hardware flexibly.
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16:27 < ENKI-][> you cannot reprogram what happens inside a chip unless it is an FPGA, and FPGAs are limited in important ways. usually, you use them to debug something you eventually want on a real dedicated chip
16:28 < delinquentme> what I interpreted it as was I could take this: http://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/tutorialimages/SPOT/SPOT-Connect-Teardown-5-M.jpg  and make it into this: http://www.schmalzhaus.com/EasyDriver/EasyDriver_v42/EasyDriverV42_Top.PNG
16:28 < delinquentme> in software
16:29 < ENKI-][> the big two HDLs are VHDL and verilog, and they are both horrible crufty thirty year old hacks. if you get an EE degree you'll be required to learn them, but in attempting to learn them on my own i've discovered that they are more difficult to pick up than intercal ;-)
16:29 < ENKI-][> you can't.
16:30 < ENKI-][> if you think you can do that sort of thing, you won't be able to pick up VHDL without learning a good bit of EE first ;-)
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16:31 < ENKI-][> there's something called myhdl that translates a small subset of python into a small subset of (if i recall) verilog. but, if you want to use an HDL you'll need an FPGA.
16:31 < delinquentme> was hoping for awesome
16:31 < delinquentme> got subawesome
16:31 < ENKI-][> it gets worse. you haven't even seen vhdl code yet ;-)
16:32 < ENKI-][> don't let me discourage you from learning vhdl. just, don't expect magic rearrangement of logic elements in an IC, or even to have an easy time doing anything with an FPGA
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16:34 < ENKI-][> kanzure: i dropped a hundred bucks on it. for a tightwad like me, that's a lot. i won't want to discard it, even if its sensitivity is mediocre compared to professional machines at ten times the price.
16:36 < kanzure> ENKI-][: no i'd probably also ask you to throw away your professional machine :P
16:36 < kanzure> oh well. you might get some interesting correlations, maybe.
16:36 < kanzure> also: vhdl is pretty fun
16:38 < ENKI-][> i'm not quite masochistic enough for vhdl. i'll stick to osdev, stl, and befunge ;-)
16:39 < ENKI-][> kanzure: my soldering skills are not nearly good enough for me to attach a home-made openeeg system to my head ;-)
16:39 < ENKI-][> the last time i soldered something, i blew out a thirty five dollar LCD
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16:47 < delinquentme>  The Wellcome Trust, a medical charity that pumps more than £600m ($950m) a year into research, already requires open access within six months of publication, but the compliance rate is only 55%. The charity says it will “get tough” on scientists who publish in journals that restrict access,
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16:48 < kanzure> delinquentme: hah
16:48 < delinquentme> i know cyincism
16:49 < delinquentme> but they're interested
16:49 < delinquentme> which is why the steal it from them via the channel that USES it is intriguing
16:49 < kanzure> please rephrase
16:49 < delinquentme> but is so far from monetization
16:50 < delinquentme> publishers need researchers to want to read their papers in order to thrive
16:50 < delinquentme> thus utilizing the lifeline which publishers live off of
16:50 < delinquentme> as the process for stealing / borrowing / whatever
16:50 < delinquentme> is so beautiful
16:51 < kanzure> nope actually they don't care if anyone reads it. they care if anyone pays for it.
16:51 < delinquentme> who pays for it
16:51 < kanzure> that's why they bundle 1000s of journals together for libraries to spend millions on
16:51 -!- Mokbortolan_ is now known as Mok_Abroad
16:52 -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn
16:53 < kanzure> fenn: howdy howdy
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16:58 < AdrianG> hi
16:59 < kanzure> hello
16:59 < kanzure> fenn: have you received the ebay items
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17:02 < fenn> the stepper thingies are here
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17:05 < kanzure> fenn: i haven't ordered the other material
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17:10 < delinquentme> fenn,
17:11 < delinquentme> whut is yar liquid handler
17:11 < delinquentme> tell me
17:11 < delinquentme> prez
17:11 < delinquentme> better yet tell me you're a wicked smart EE
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17:13 < fenn> delinquentme: i hate you, go away
17:14 < delinquentme> haha yes everyone does
17:14 < delinquentme> but thats part of what I'm paid to be here
17:16 < fenn> it's not my design, basically i want to copy what ilan moyer did with http://web.mit.edu/imoyer/www/portfolio/fabmate/index.html
17:16 < fenn> or the ultimaker
17:16 < fenn> same idea really
17:17 < fenn> i have no idea why you need so many things moving around
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17:17 < delinquentme> ohhh
17:18 < delinquentme> wait are you making a liquid handler?
17:18 < delinquentme> that seems like a 3d printer
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17:19 < fenn> i'm replacing an undergrad with a pipettor
17:20 < fenn> anyway the motivation for this project has disappeared
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17:23 < kanzure> fenn: aw?
17:23 < kanzure> what was the motivation
17:24 < fenn> anselm was whining about doing repetitive work
17:25 < fenn> doing gene assembly for fish optogenetics
17:25 < kanzure> that's some tremendous customer service (n=1 complaining => product)
17:26 < fenn> well i'm sure there are lots of people out there who need such a machine, i just don't know them (or i dont know that i know them at least)
17:26 < kanzure> it's very easy to find angry/disgruntled molecular biology nerds on the interwebs
17:26 < kanzure> they're just all broke or something
17:26 < fenn> anyway it was something i had in mind since i was an undergrad doing repetitive manual pipetting
17:26 < fenn> i'm sure they can afford a ~$500 machine
17:27 < kanzure> do you want to play with that $800 synthesizer from ebay? it had manuals and discs and cords
17:27 < fenn> ugh
17:27 < fenn> link?
17:27 < kanzure> just asking :(
17:27 < kanzure> urhm brb
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17:29 < kanzure> ok sorry. phone call. and also deploying to a ew staging servers. happy with me right now.
17:29 < kanzure> *few
17:29 < delinquentme> fenn so you're not really into it anymore eh?
17:30 < fenn> delinquentme: basically, i don't want to hold your hand through every step of the process
17:31 < delinquentme> fenn, interesting
17:31 < delinquentme> how old are you
17:31 < delinquentme> where do you live and are you in college?
17:32 < fenn> i'm a 17 year old girl and i live in fiji
17:33 < delinquentme> wish you the best with that
17:34 < delinquentme> "largest self propelled object ever made " http://i.imgur.com/jkGHf.jpg
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17:36 < kanzure> fenn: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Millipore-MilliGen-Cyclone-Plus-DNA-Synthesizer-8400-/130530382334?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e643791fe#ht_653wt_1274
17:38 < fenn> o_O it has a CRT
17:39 < fenn> what is this, an apple II?
17:40 < kanzure> it's probably from the 80s
17:40 < fenn> i didnt realize dna synthesizers existed back then
17:40 < kanzure> all $100k+ synthesizers have huge maintenance contracts and seem to be repaired over the years by the original manufacturer (on-site)
17:40 < kanzure> yes i'm pretty sure 100% of the synthesizers were built in the 80s
17:40 < kanzure> or very close to 100%
17:40 < fenn> weird
17:41 < kanzure> i should write down what i know about the history of synthesizers
17:41 < kanzure> vega biotechnologies did the first few peptide synthesizers and oligo synthesizers
17:41 < kanzure> then applied bio in 1981 started releasing their synthesizers and sequencers
17:42 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Biosystems
17:42 < diginet> fenn, are you really a 17 year old girl in fiji?
17:43 < kanzure> 1983- "The company released its second commercial instrument, the Model 380A DNA Synthesizer, which made oligonucleotides, short DNA strands, for polymerase chain reaction (PCR), DNA sequencing, and gene identification. The two sequencer and synthesizer products allowed molecular biologists to clone genes by building oligonucleotides with the desired protein's DNA sequence.[1]"
17:43 < fenn> wow i also didnt realize foster city existed in the 80's
17:44 < fenn> PCR was "developed in 1983"
17:44 < diginet> my sarcasm detector doesn't work very well, but that's cool if you are?
17:44 < fenn> that's some fast product development
17:44 < kanzure> everyone was itching for dna synthesis
17:45 < kanzure> it was 'too complex' for biologists to perform until some chemistries in the 70s and even then it was wonky
17:45 < kanzure> read about vega here http://www.trilinkbiotech.com/tech/oligo_history.pdf
17:46 < delinquentme> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWl6Pm2klPU&feature=youtu.be
17:47 < delinquentme> jason silva .. cool dude
17:49 < delinquentme> hes you know
17:49 < delinquentme> not a nay saying bitch
17:49 < diginet> who is a nay saying bitch?
17:49 < diginet> (i.e. are you referring to someone in particular?)
17:50 < Mariu> yeah, good question
17:50 < Mariu> ^^
17:50 < Mariu> let's ID the enemy
17:50 < diginet> ?
17:52 < fenn> paul ehrlich is representative
17:53 < diginet> so I'm reevaluating my choice of duckweed for protein expression, namely because there is little information on working with it in the literature.  Tobacco seems to be the most talked about, but I'm not sure if it would be too hard to grow or what
17:53 < diginet> err, not too hard to grow, if the yields would be too low
17:54 < fenn> silva sure moves his hands around a lot
17:54 < kanzure> fenn: so they already had peptide synthesizers and oligo synthesizers before the 80s
17:54 < kanzure> although it was "some weird chemistry"
17:55 < kanzure> diphosphates instead of triphosphates? what what
17:55 < delinquentme> http://www.genomics.agilent.com/CollectionOverview.aspx?PageType=Application&SubPageType=ApplicationOverview&PageID=275 << microfluidics based
17:56 < fenn> hold on, let me read that paper
17:58 < kanzure> another interesting document is the 1984 nobel prize lecture about solid phase synthesis in general
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17:58 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/Nobel%20lecture%20-%20Solid%20phase%20synthesis%20-%201984%20-%20Merrifield.pdf
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18:08 < fenn> nice video; skip to 2:00 though, don't really need the introduction
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18:13 < delinquentme> fenn,  dont buy into any of it
18:13 < delinquentme> its all crap
18:13 < delinquentme> pipe dreams
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18:26 < diginet> delinquentme, what on earth are you even talking about?
18:30 < delinquentme> fenn being a little rape victim
18:30 < AdrianG> is experimentation on humans with drugs viewed favourably upon in this chat?
18:30 < delinquentme> whining about something
18:30 < delinquentme> AdrianG, true!
18:31 < ENKI-][> adriang: depends on the humans in question.
18:31 < AdrianG> I experiment on myself only.
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18:32 < ENKI-][> i don't think you'll get a lot of flak for that, unless you also implant magnets into your fingers using a pocket knife and vodka :P
18:32 < AdrianG> hey. that was my idea.
18:33 < ENKI-][> i'm amused by the inordinate amount of lepht hate in here, but meh
18:33 < kanzure> gah how do we not have videos of a 1984 nobel prize lecture
18:33 < kanzure> http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/video_lectures.html
18:33 < kanzure> only going back to 1999?
18:35 < AdrianG> we should sue them.
18:35 < AdrianG> and force them to hand them over in the discovery process.
18:36 < AdrianG> ENKI-][: arent u from some aspie channels?
18:36 < ENKI-][> yes.
18:36 < kanzure> we're pretty much all from some aspie channel
18:36 < ENKI-][> i am from all sorts of channels.
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18:38 < Mariu> :p
18:43 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:44 < nmz787> http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/pcs/2012/04/16/raspberry-pi-review/1
18:45 < kanzure> nmz787: can you find me a video of the 1984 nobel lecture in chemistry
18:46 < kanzure> merrifield's
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18:59 < nmz787> i can try
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18:59 < nmz787> video, audio, or document?
19:00 < nmz787> http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1984/merrifield-lecture.pdf
19:00 < nmz787> oh
19:00 < nmz787> nevermind, you said video
19:00 < nmz787> duh
19:01 < kanzure> audio would be ok
19:02 < kanzure> i've seen the pdf before but i'm really curious why there's no video
19:02 < nmz787> are they recorded?
19:04 < JayDugger> Now that video cost so little, sure.
19:04 < JayDugger> Friedman's acceptance speech got filmed.
19:05 < JayDugger> Lectures--I don't know.
19:05 < kanzure> nmz787: well they posted videos back to 1999
19:06 < kanzure> but 1999 was >50 years after television was a generally known thing
19:08 < JayDugger> Why doesn't the transcript suffice?
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19:09 < kanzure> JayDugger: a transcript doesn't explain why audio doesn't exist..
19:09 < JayDugger> I see your point, but why care?
19:11 < nmz787> i'm not coming up with anything
19:11 < nmz787> found a page with some older videos on blogger, posted a message to the guy
19:11 < kanzure> if the nobel prize is supposed to be one of the greatest awards to scientific achievement then i would suspect they would be recorded
19:12 < kanzure> JayDugger: that's all^
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20:30 < kanzure> beep boop
20:36 < kristianpaul> baap?
20:38 < kanzure> hi kristianpaul
20:42 < kristianpaul> hiho
20:52 < _F7_> beep boop
20:53 < kanzure> _F7_: are you a pokemon master :p
20:54 < Mariu> Dawn looks cute
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22:17 < fenn> so.. implicitcad
22:18 < fenn> also, lemoncurry
22:18 < kanzure> and picoprojectors
22:18 < kanzure> "picoliter droplet projectors: catapulting across the future vol. 1"
22:18 < fenn> apparently uv cure resin is $49/l and can be cured with a standard projector
22:18 < kanzure> we should probably try this at least once :/
22:19 < fenn> it sure beats reprap on the resolution front
22:21 < fenn> i guess they sell cmyk resins because you can use it in an inkjet with a bulk UV cure step
22:21 < fenn> instead of photo-cure
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22:26 < fenn> a programmatic cad system really lends itself to procedural geometry creation such as is needed for changing material properties with shape variation
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22:26 < fenn> termite mounts have all sorts of interesting properties due to the meso structure
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22:27 < fenn> hah i just made that up, but "functional mesostructure" seems to be the right keyword
22:29 < kanzure> oh god "I agree, writing Java without powerful refactoring tools is a bore--that's why it's great to use Eclipse's "Generate Getters and Setters based on Fields" refactoring tool."
22:30 < fenn> why are you reading that? get back to work
22:30 < fenn> ;P
22:31 < kanzure> waiting for this queue of 1,500,000 tasks to finish processing (140 workers!)
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22:36 < kanzure> "In fact, Dragon has so much interior volume, that we could place an entire three-person Russian Soyuz capsule descent module inside Dragon’s pressure vessel."
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 17 00:00:39 2012