--- Log opened Wed Apr 18 00:00:40 2012
00:00 < lichen> kanzure: cool cool :)
00:01 < diginet> well
00:01 < diginet> hmm
00:01 < diginet> I really want to make this stuff though
00:03 < yashgaroth> well there's several other syntheses so
00:05 < diginet> of what? dibromoindigo? I know but the other two I've seen either require silver as a catalyst, or the paper is just unintelligibly written
00:06 < yashgaroth> catalyst means you don't need a lot
00:06 < diginet> I know, but silver acetate is expensive
00:07 < yashgaroth> 5 grams $32.70
00:07 < diginet> from where?
00:08 < yashgaroth> sigma
00:08 < diginet> I assume I should be able to reuse it?
00:08 < yashgaroth> no
00:09 < diginet> oh, darn
00:10 < diginet> well, can you take  a quick look at the paper which describes the process, but that I can't understand? Because that one shows the most promise, but I swear the writing is impenetrable
00:10 < yashgaroth> sure but I don't have access
00:10 < diginet> I know I'm uploading it to dropbox
00:12 < nmz787> kanzure: i posted the thread, http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3871045
00:13 < diginet> yashgaroth, here you go: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/58318055/tyrian.pdf
00:15 < yashgaroth> this isn't the one with silver
00:16 < diginet> I know
00:16 < diginet> this is the one without silver that seemed promising
00:16 < nmz787> i would investigate the biosynthetic route
00:16 < nmz787> IMO GMO is cooler, less FBI in your ass
00:16 < diginet> the silver one is too expensive to make any useful quantities
00:16  * yashgaroth echoes nmz787's sentiment
00:17 < diginet> what is the biosynthetic route?
00:17 < nmz787> secretion from snails
00:17 < nmz787> says it on second page
00:17 < diginet> so, where am I supposed to get 12000 snails?
00:17 < diginet> and that makes 1 gram
00:18 < nmz787> that means its either good to get outta the cell on its own, or has a transporter, or is shuttled through golgi or something to get into a vesicle
00:18 < nmz787> nah
00:18 < nmz787> clone/synthetic DNA
00:18 < diginet> oh, right
00:18 < yashgaroth> find the biosynthetic pathway
00:18 < nmz787> :P
00:18 < diginet> well, I did read a paper on brominated precursors in petunias
00:19 < nmz787> find the snail, see what genes have been discovered... get 10 snails, grind up their feet or slime makers, get that sequenced (or see if its already sequenced)
00:19 < nmz787> often special compounds genes are in a locus, an area of the DNA where all required genes reside
00:20 < nmz787> but yeah, if you're no chemist, you're likely just as worth a synthetic biologist
00:21 < diginet> I don't think it's nearly that simple
00:21 < diginet> the biosynthetic pathway is very complicated and involves the interaction of several different types of cells
00:21 < diginet> I don't think a single enzyme manufactures it
00:21 < yashgaroth> of course not
00:22 < diginet> so, making an artificial hypobrachial gland doesn't seem in anyway easier than direct synthesis
00:23 < nmz787> http://www.bio.purdue.edu/people/faculty/karcher/blue2000/blue.html
00:23 < nmz787> dibromoindigo from x-gluc and glucuronic acid via GUS
00:24 < diginet> no, that's dibromodichloroindigo
00:24 < diginet> and it's 5,5'
00:24 < diginet> different isomer
00:25 < nmz787> :/
00:25 < nmz787> pretty close
00:25 < diginet> except a completely different color
00:26 < nmz787> the enzyme GUS might work on the other precursor
00:26 < diginet> urgh that paper I sent yashgaroth pisses me off so much, the authors mention this "superior" method of synthesis, and then it's never brough up again
00:27 < nmz787> anyway
00:27 < nmz787> g2g sleep
00:27 < diginet> whoever wrote that should be shot, I have probably tried to read it like 10 times
00:27 < nmz787> ttyl ppls
00:27 < diginet> bye
00:28 < nmz787> find out what the molecule would be called if you cut the purple in half
00:28 < nmz787> let me know, i'll try to dig up more info on biosynth
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00:29 < diginet> so get this, an IGEM team is working on this very project
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01:33 < thylaneb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJRzlhnQhdA&feature=related
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04:26 < sylph_mako> What.. This is nuts http://www.kurzweilai.net/fullerene-c60-administration-doubles-rat-lifespan-with-no-toxicity
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04:27 < sylph_mako> NUTS. Great but like.. what? Eating fullerines? That's all there is to it?
04:28 < fenn> look at the comments.. they only had 6 rats
04:29 < sylph_mako> uuugh
04:30 < fenn> oh sorry, 60 rats
04:32 < fenn> i guess they liked the number
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07:24 < kanzure> heh yep i was right
07:24 < kanzure> "I presume you got the information from Joseph Jackson.  I'm not sure what you know about the used equipment business. Forgive me if I state the obvious.  Today is not good for a visit."
07:24 < kanzure> "The items that interest you have been bid in a package in excess of $150K"
07:24 < kanzure> "If the deposit arrives, this is a done deal."
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07:26 < kanzure> "Please join us for the FBI-DIYbio Workshop hosted by BioCurious and the FBI, June 12-14, 2012 in Mountain View, California."
07:26 < kanzure> "This three day event will focus on the interface of amateur biology and law enforcement, community laboratory issues, and dual-use research.  It will include presentations by representatives of the amateur biology and law enforcement communities."
07:26 < kanzure> "The event will involve two days of presentations and interactive activities at NASA Ames Conference Center in Mountain View, CA and one day of laboratory activities at the BioCurious community laboratory in Sunnyvale, CA."
07:27 < kanzure> "Lodging will be provided at the Hilton Garden Inn in Cupertino, California."
07:28 < kanzure> nmz787: no i meant did you post the physicsforum thing
07:28 < kanzure> jennicide: non-euclidean isn't exactly my specialty, but what's up?
07:29 < kanzure> aha http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3871045
07:29 < jennicide> essay was submitted
07:29 < jennicide> but thanks
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07:55 < diginet> non-euclidian is awesome
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08:09 < nmz787> kanzure: right about?
08:09 < nmz787> did my gf send you her resume? i
08:09 < kanzure> nope
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08:18 < nmz787> 165 views on my post, 0 replies .... i guess its still early
08:18 < nmz787> this forum seems pretty active though
08:18 < nmz787> i posted in a bunch of the bio threads... omre activity than diybio
08:18 < nmz787> back to class...
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08:40 < Cat4D> now that im out of the picture: http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/cams/panorama.php?cam=R2cam
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09:39 < kanzure> geneforge colloseum ... gary mccleleun... serpentine bio? sold their legs to geneforge?
09:40 < kanzure> kaufman 192 (not commercially available- contracted with something- modified vesion for Azco to sell in China)
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09:40 < kanzure> biolytics in freemont - he makes the blt 192, 384... dr. oligo
09:40 < kanzure> GE AKTA
09:40 < kanzure> japanese have some
09:40 < kanzure> oligo company - spinoff of Blue Heron - gen9bio -
09:40 < kanzure> shoemaucker.. mermaid .. jeff shoemaucker - bioautomation in austin?
09:40 < kanzure> chinese have some
09:40 < kanzure> dna is after-market or custom design. Illumina has their own oligo maker design.
09:40 < kanzure> olligator.. biosearch in nevada. their own design.
09:40 < kanzure> operon has their own design
09:40 < kanzure> metavine has their own
09:40 < kanzure> something in denmark ... oligomaker
09:40 < kanzure> bioautomation / mermaider
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09:41 < delinquentme> DNA synthesis projects?
09:41 < kanzure> just companies.
09:43 < kanzure> hahah 3d printed aquarium pieces
09:43 < kanzure> that's quite a niche.
09:46 < kanzure> fenn: so apparently azco biotech bought everything up
09:47 < kanzure> 3d printed aquarium pieces: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/could-your-next-protein-skimmer-be-3d-printed
09:47 < kanzure> "A 3D printable Mario Brothers RC controllable Turtle Shell Racer"
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09:58 < kanzure> doh it's Jeff Scheumack <jeff@bioautomation.com>
10:02 < kanzure> i wonder why my meetlog.txt repo is 967 MB
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10:19 < Cat4D> http://webglsamples.googlecode.com/hg/aquarium/aquarium.html
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10:21 < kanzure> heh.. so you could provide an aquarium simulation along with that 3d printed part for their aquarium
10:21 < Cat4D> vis the part in design
10:22  * Cat4D did a rp fab which spit out thousands of game characters, porn figures a day... for a few months peak
10:22 < Cat4D> the porn figures started getting bigger than the breakeven on the materials
10:22 < kanzure> huh there's no search results for this
10:22 < kanzure> why isn't anyone doing custom aquarium pieces :(
10:23 < Cat4D> i dont know about the biological aspects of hotglue
10:23 < Cat4D> otherwise id suggest hotglue
10:23 < Cat4D> -- remember also plastics leech and are toxic
10:23 < Cat4D> use fda cert plastics
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10:48 < kanzure> hmm.. http://lanyrd.com/guides/diybio/ links to http://lanyrd.com/2012/openly-disruptive/ http://openlydisruptive.org/ which looks like kristina hathaway/raymond mccauley
10:48 < kanzure> conference topics look a little lame
10:48 < kanzure> ah it's dan reus. whatever.
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11:39 < _F7_> huh? implants?
11:39 < _F7_> Sugru?
11:39 < _F7_> not hot glue, ffs
11:39 < ThomasEgi> how bout medical grade silicone^?
11:40 < _F7_> Sugru sets up well
11:40 < _F7_> siloxanes are varied
11:41 < _F7_> I wouldn't hold the findings of Lepht Anonym to highly
11:41 < _F7_> *too
11:42 < _F7_> but silicone seems like solid advice. I'd like to see an animal study on hot-glue covered crap.
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11:44 < ThomasEgi> the problem with hot glue and most silicones is the variation in quality.
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11:45 < ThomasEgi> while high quality of each works out rather good. you can always get a batch of hot glue/silicone that has some impurities.
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11:45 < ThomasEgi> like some heavy metal traces or so.
11:45 < _F7_> ah
11:45 < ThomasEgi> getting medical grade silicone is not that hard in most countries. it is often used to make molds and stuff.
11:46 < ThomasEgi> altho it usualy isnt certified for implantation. at least you get a good quality controll.
11:46 < _F7_> who is implanting what?
11:47 < kanzure> splicer: have you visited hackteria yet
11:48 < nmz787> kanzure: i know someone at GE healthcare, I will ask about AKTA... though i dunno if they can get that info
11:48 < nmz787> price i mean
11:49 < nmz787> hah, oligator is a pretty good name
11:49 < nmz787> kinda stupid, but funny stupid
11:50 < kanzure> nah i'm sure the price is >$100k
11:51 < nmz787> would be cool to see cathal in SF
11:53 < kanzure> haha chandni emailed me and introduced herself as "nathan mccorkle GF resume"
11:54 < kanzure> that makes me sad..
11:54 < kanzure> she thinks i don't know her name
11:54 < nmz787> nah i told her to do that
11:54 < nmz787> so it would hopefully not get lost in the 80 billion trillion other emails you get
11:55 < kanzure> my inbox is exploding today :(
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11:57 < nmz787> so i'm drivin to sf for the june meeting
11:57 < nmz787> not sure what route to take
11:57 < nmz787> i guess it depends on if I also move out at the same time
11:57 < kanzure> jetblue is showing me a $50 ticket haha
11:57 < nmz787> lol
11:57 < kanzure> fbi will pay you for gas i think
11:57 < nmz787> yep
11:57 < nmz787> already mentioned it
11:58 < kanzure> last year i asked them if they would let me charge a private jet to them
11:58 < kanzure> they weren't happy about that question
11:58 < nmz787> hahhahhahh
11:59 < nmz787> govt has enough overhead already, and you want a private jet
11:59 < nmz787> i'd be more pissed if they let you, since i didnt even think to ask that
11:59 < kanzure> Cat4D: that's one long email :) thank you
11:59 < Cat4D> its a horrible scribble
12:00 < Cat4D> which fbi? /me is from big island! haz great crack with volcano!
12:00 < nmz787> there might be something interesting here:ftp://ftp.bbc.purdue.edu/
12:00 < kanzure> Cat4D: weapons of mass destruction directorate
12:00 < nmz787> the u.s. fbi
12:01 < Cat4D> you might like http://obsama.com/#snow
12:01 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20080708235522/http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/images/hrtppe.jpg
12:02 < Cat4D> lol ct bunnysuit
12:03  * Cat4D places floppy pancake on head, kanzure knows why, spherical!
12:04 < kanzure> oops my bad
12:04 < kanzure> it's the Biological Countermeasures Unit
12:05 < kanzure> under the Weapons of Mass Destruction program
12:06 < Cat4D> ya, the idiots who used me as a training target for 3 years, every time i went to supermarket, they said I dispersed toxins/etc, even tried to run me over with the balloon tire catapiller truck
12:11 < Cat4D> they did do a good job of proving that contagens could be introduced through food packaging, took over then entire industry
12:11 < Cat4D> scratch and sniff boxes, especially
12:12 < Cat4D> and honey wheat thins pictures
12:12 < nmz787> triscuits beat wheat thins IMO
12:13 < Cat4D> for transporting and global distribution of bio weapons?
12:13 < nmz787> nah, taste
12:13 < nmz787> unless you're allergic to gluten, then both screw you up pretty bad
12:14  * Cat4D pets Perro, the gluton
12:14 < kanzure> http://extremelongevity.net/2012/04/18/more-on-buckyballs-and-lifespan-extension/
12:14 < kanzure> "I saw your comment:  "C60 is actually available for around $40 per gram, and can even be purchased mixed into an anti-aging skin cream.  In theory, a bold person could begin taking it as a supplement now. Since he saw its effects firsthand, I aksed Dr Moussa if he started to take it.  ”No,” he said.  ”I do not consume C60 at this time.”"
12:14 < kanzure> "The way Dr. Moussa said "consume" made me wonder if there was a way to consume C60 orally.  I came across this "blog", so I wonder if anyone saw this before:"
12:14 < kanzure> http://smarteconomy.typepad.com/smart_economy/2010/05/novel-safe-natural-food-supplement-hydrated-fullerenes-c60hyfn-or-watersoluble-buckyballs-could-make.html
12:15 < kanzure> "Novel, safe natural food supplement, hydrated fullerenes (C60-HyFn) or water-soluble buckyballs could make 50-60 % of the riskier synthetic drugs and pharmaceuticals obsolete by 2025-30"
12:15 < kanzure> "UPDATE  Nov 2010: HYFNs have been approved for manufacturing as Fullerene Water Solution (FWS)  drink in Ukraine by the  Ministry of Health  as of Nov 2010. It's the first nanotech based health drink in the world. For information about availability  contact me privately by email.""
12:15  * Cat4D notes c-60 erroneously in earlier context, references http://obsama.com/anfo.txt
12:19 < kanzure> Cat4D: what? hawaiin book burning due to kilauea?
12:19 < Cat4D> library.royalgardens.us ?
12:20 < kanzure> yeah
12:20 < kanzure> what's going on
12:20 < kanzure> what am i looking at
12:20 < Cat4D> dunno?
12:21  * Cat4D ponders what kanzure is looking at... there's quite a few options
12:22 < nmz787> i don't see how fullerenes can be anti-oxidants,, they would have to be reduced, meaning gaining electrons, then wouldn't they either gain an H or the oxidative group
12:22 < nmz787> i guess that could work
12:22 < nmz787> cat4d the text you sent doesn't seem to say anything at all
12:22 < Cat4D> sheesh, which?
12:23 < nmz787> anfo
12:23 < Cat4D> of course obsama is not conclusive, they try to kill me frequently
12:23 < Cat4D> .ie consulate disposed of it recovered from see-also:books
12:23 < Cat4D> the ndrf/nisp
12:24 < Cat4D> more important, of course, is that dhs made that disappear from regulations.gov
12:25 < Cat4D> my crew pulled most of the firining lines off the boats with the ndrf staff, see also http://fleetrevealed.com << pretty pictures
12:27 < nmz787> why were they toxic vessels?
12:27 < nmz787> toxic aesthetically?
12:27 < Cat4D> big topic,
12:28 < Cat4D> suisun bay water quallity control board federal court case (searching)
12:28 < Cat4D> sf bay rather SFRWQCB?
12:28 < Cat4D> try http://platinum-ii.in  in the videos see epa
12:30 < Cat4D> here http://platinum-ii.in/vid/
12:31 < Cat4D> paint chips, machine goo, oil, asbestos, pcb, any other leaking stuff
12:32 < Cat4D> also that boat and the other one did the mumbai/bombay bombing attack, according to DEA who designed it (ATS.in)
12:33 < nmz787> i'm sorry to say it, thought that site has interesting pics of a sinking ship, its written horribly and seems like most people would pass it up as fake/hype
12:33 < Cat4D> not to mention the ss norway ( "sister ship link)
12:33 < Cat4D> yep, we've done a lot of work on this legal requirement
12:33 < Cat4D> except the linguistic analysis system tends to use 1999 jargon and phrase structure
12:33 < nmz787> that still doesnt make sense
12:34 < Cat4D> a syntatic analysis of all of those are generated from the same system (except anfo, but that follows the same structure)
12:34 < Cat4D> http://platinum-ii.in/bn  is more direct
12:35 < nmz787> why would anyone do that?
12:36 < Cat4D> legal liability? these are some potent problems
12:36 < Cat4D> it.never.says.anything.explicitly = true;
12:36 < nmz787> legal liability in the age of torrent?
12:36 < Cat4D> not to mention view-source:obsama.com
12:37 < Cat4D> go read bluenorway bn archive
12:37 < Cat4D> sorry i got wrong url http://platinum-ii.in/bn/bluenorway.html
12:39 < nmz787> videos say the ship was banned by u.s. epa
12:39 < nmz787> sounds legit to me
12:39 < Cat4D> legit how?
12:39 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
12:40 < nmz787> that our government is keeping a ship with toxic paint out of our coasts
12:40 <@kanzure> Cat4D: please stick to CAD
12:40  * Cat4D is a trans-temporal cat, sorry, got ahead for once
12:40 < Cat4D> its american
12:40 < Cat4D> it wasnt allowed to leave
12:40 <@kanzure> if you can't do that, you should leave
12:43 <@kanzure> open knowledge foundation's hypothes.is alternative: https://github.com/okfn/annotator-store
12:43 <@kanzure> well, i think it's hypothesis.is
12:43 <@kanzure> something.
12:43 < Cat4D> which cad/cam systems use the gpu for nurbs rendering?
12:46 <@kanzure> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3857057/nurbs-on-directx-11
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12:47 < Cat4D> nah, those are meshing functions
12:47 < Cat4D> the only few that are real is the surflab and the berkeley owned by solidworks
12:48 < Cat4D> (ive not checked solidworks binary if its included)
12:48 < _F7_> what is this fullerene nonsense
12:48 <@kanzure> _F7_: beats me
12:49 < _F7_> It sounds like something that a highly publicized and poorly conducted study would stir up
12:49 < _F7_> soluble fullerenes? cool. In bottled water? WTF
12:49 <@kanzure> haha yeah i agree it sounds fishy
12:57 < ThomasEgi>  ><@°‣
12:57 < ThomasEgi> fishy..
12:58 < Cat4D> what is a trans-humanist?
12:59 < nmz787> enhancing human experience through modification/technology
12:59 < nmz787> or human performance
13:00 < ThomasEgi> in short: refusing to accept your limitations and push the it
13:01  * Cat4D double doses pramicetam with piramacetam and baarfs
13:01 < Cat4D> then british customs blacklists you
13:02 <@kanzure> Cat4D: yep that's basically the story
13:02 < nmz787> meh, who likes britain anyway
13:02 < Cat4D> qhi, but the result is an interpol listing
13:02 < Cat4D> for pharmaceuticals
13:02 < nmz787> (at least their govt) (i'm U.S.... didn't we dump their tea in the harbor and call it a day)
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13:30 < nmz787> who is azonenberg?
13:30 < nmz787> he was just referenced in ##electronics
13:31 <@kanzure> nmz787: he does the homecmos project
13:31 <@kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/
13:32 < nmz787> "kludge: ask azonenberg about using a microscope objective as a beam former.  It will take some machining work."
13:32 < nmz787> http://hackteria.org/?p=1186
13:32 < nmz787> whoops
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13:58 <@kanzure> hi rkos
13:58 < rkos> hello
13:59 < rkos> http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2012/04/fixing-science-systems-and-politics.html interesting article
14:01 <@kanzure> comments might be interesting on that
14:01 <@kanzure> looks like 20
14:01 <@kanzure> ehh... http://openscienceframework.org/
14:01 <@kanzure> dunno why they don't team up with okfn
14:05 < rkos> okfn?
14:05 < rkos> well im off to sleep anyways....
14:07 <@kanzure> Pmc has 440k OA docs as a 1.2 TB FTP download, no need for bit torrent.
14:07 <@kanzure> oh snap
14:07 <@kanzure> pretty sure that's pubmedcentral.gvo
14:07 <@kanzure> er, pubmedcentral.gov
14:08 < nmz787> kanzure: so no progress on the forum, the electronics guys think the bluray laser wont cut clear stuff (when i mentioned that to simon he said to add black carbon was an option... but then we cant do optics).... so it seems that we should use CO2, which means Simon might not be happy to help more (though that could be wrong) since its more expensive.... but also means more expensive optics
14:08 <@kanzure> sounds fine to me
14:08 < nmz787> I guess I will stop by the EE shop i worked at this week to see if I can get some help
14:08 <@kanzure> i am not sure why that youtube video shows a <1W bluray diode cutting things
14:08 < nmz787> i also know another guy, but he's pretty busy
14:08 < nmz787> well its black
14:09 < nmz787> so absorbs better in vis
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14:20 < splicer> kanzure: on hackteria, yes I've seen it. Do you like it?
14:20 <@kanzure> splicer: yeah of course
14:20 <@kanzure> but no i meant have you seen them /in person/
14:20 <@kanzure> they are in switzerland
14:21 < splicer> no... I'm in sweden
14:21 <@kanzure> doh
14:21 < splicer> ;)
14:21 <@kanzure> i fail
14:22 < splicer> I'd like to see someone create some form of ideology around biohacking...
14:22 <@kanzure> don't we have enough biohacking ideology already?
14:22 < splicer> do we have any that's new really?
14:23 < splicer> that would not just be someone trying to fit some old ideology into it
14:23 <@kanzure> feel free to rant about what you want to see
14:23 < splicer> My problem is... I mostly know what I don't want to see
14:24 < splicer> because it's already been done
14:24 < splicer> biotech should give birth to something new... like info tech did
14:25 < Cat4D> what is the size and material for the mill?
14:25 <@kanzure> Cat4D: which mill?
14:25 < Cat4D> your sanyo diode
14:25 <@kanzure> doing a laser cutter
14:25 <@kanzure> i think we have a >6" stage at the moment
14:25 <@kanzure> <1 micron step size
14:26 <@kanzure> want a laser spot size of 5-20 microns
14:26 <@kanzure> well.. 1-20 microns. whatever.
14:26 < Cat4D> the blue 1w sanyos from the projectors ( wickedlasers.com ) are 69 retail, but their "1w" is not comperable to 1w of ir/red bands
14:27 < Cat4D> do you have enough stability to use a big condensor above? otherwise your lense (microscope?) will be an issue
14:27 <@kanzure> haven't decided on lenses
14:27 < Cat4D> the poly glass distorts green-blue-up bands
14:28 <@kanzure> the material moves, not the laser
14:28 <@kanzure> er, not the laser/mirrors
14:29 < Cat4D> right, this is correct for small targets, so if you have a flat target surface, or control up stage, you can focus from outside
14:29 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
14:29 < Cat4D> but if you need 3d with large vert displacement, your condensor has to be designed accordingly
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14:30 <@kanzure> Cat4D: are you familiar with condensors and picking out correct lenses
14:30 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:30 <@kanzure> yo yashgaroth
14:30 < Cat4D> you can also code/prisim smaller sources to the same target each below cooking threshold
14:30 < yashgaroth> why is the fbi meeting in the middle of the week
14:30 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: because apparently nobody has jobs?
14:30 < nmz787> biz day?
14:30 < nmz787> the fbis job
14:30 < nmz787> they dont work weekends
14:30  * Cat4D schedules
14:31 < yashgaroth> bah, if I get a job I'm already taking 2 weeks in july, plus these 2 in SF, all on loaned vacation
14:31 < Cat4D> kan do you have a material target profile, a range of materials, etc?
14:31 < bkero> jobs?  lul
14:31 <@kanzure> Cat4D: pdms, acrylic, maybe glass
14:31 < Cat4D> the focal point, especially at size, is your biggest issue
14:31 < nmz787> http://labs.nortd.com/lasersaur/
14:32 < Cat4D> you cant pass through something unless you plan for it
14:32 < Cat4D> what type of stages?
14:32 < nmz787> custom
14:32 < nmz787> via acme screw
14:33 -!- jmil [~jmil@SEASNet-148-05.seas.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: jmil]
14:33 < Cat4D> at that resolution?
14:33  * Cat4D checks http://pi.com
14:34 < Cat4D> that fiberboard would prefer a 5w range
14:34 <@kanzure> see also http://buildlog.net/cnc_laser/laser_calcs.h
14:34 <@kanzure> gahh
14:34 <@kanzure> http://buildlog.net/cnc_laser/laser_calcs.htm
14:35 < nmz787> we're not cutting fiberboard
14:36 < nmz787> we're cutting 50-250 microns of silicone or acrylic
14:36 < nmz787> and potentially glass
14:36 < nmz787> we'll def need a beam expander
14:36 < nmz787> from 2mm outta the laser to at least 15mm before being focused
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14:37 < nmz787> great the lasersaur wants money to get on their mailing list
14:38 <@kanzure> haha ignore them
14:38 <@kanzure> i remember when lasersaur was raising money
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14:38 <@kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/2010-05-31.log
14:38 <@kanzure> 2011-01-12.log:11:17 < kanzure> lasersaur got $20k and they haven't done /shit/
14:38 <@kanzure> 2011-02-04.log:10:08 < JayDugger> log.lasersaur.com redirects to a Flickr photo set
14:38 < nmz787> hmm
14:38 <@kanzure> 2011-02-11.log:20:34 < kanzure> otoh, i do want to avoid situations like lasersaurus or openpcr or biocurious where people get money upfront and then sit around dicking off
14:39 < nmz787> hmm
14:39 < nmz787> lol
14:39 < nmz787> well i g2g to class
14:39 <@kanzure> that was feb 2011 :(
14:39 < nmz787> ttyl
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14:56 < Cat4D> lag, lemme look at specs
14:56 <@kanzure> Cat4D: here's some more details.. http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3871045
14:57 < Cat4D> lol thats useless without material's valuse ;)
14:58 < Cat4D> anyways
14:58 < Cat4D> 5w capable, depending on wavelength and material, is usually fine for small stuffs
14:58 < Cat4D> i've cut circuit boards with 200 walmart 30cent pointers
14:59 < Cat4D> what constraints do you have?
15:00 < Cat4D> and please do NOT follow any instructions from reprap, they are disinfo
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15:00 < Cat4D> the blue beam is easily focused, but you need to find out what your material responds to
15:01 <@kanzure> haha yes we are ignoring reprap
15:01 < Cat4D> a co2 ired generates heat
15:01 <@kanzure> all custom (except linuxcnc)
15:01 < Cat4D> but 1w of ired is 10x g/b
15:01 < fenn> "i've cut circuit boards with 200 walmart 30cent pointers"  really? how do you combine so many beams?
15:01 < Cat4D> cone
15:01 < Cat4D> or prism
15:02 < Cat4D> 4in polarizer just in case
15:02 < Cat4D> then the condensor stack
15:02 < _F7_> wait wtf you've made an array of cheap diod lasers?
15:02 < fenn> i can't visualize that
15:02 < Cat4D> rings
15:02 < Cat4D> but 1watt r/g/b "output" are 50 $
15:03 < Cat4D> look at wickedlasers adverts
15:03 < Cat4D> its a 69$ retail sanyo blue diode
15:03 < Cat4D> with a good circuit and a battery
15:03 < Cat4D> i use one of those for range scan in the volcano
15:03 <@kanzure> sir i am in the market for an underground volcano lair
15:03 < Cat4D> your typical overhead projector has the rest of the parts you need
15:04 <@kanzure> do you happen to have real estate available for these purposes
15:04 < Cat4D> 10k usd for 1/5 acre, 75ft of new lava surface, and very pretty views
15:04 <@kanzure> thanks
15:04 <@kanzure> is that per month
15:04 -!- _F7_ [~forrestfl@safekick-americas-2.consolidated.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep]
15:05 < fenn> location location location
15:06 < fenn> you need a volcano with nearby airstrip and slope suitable for space launch railgun
15:06 < yashgaroth> make sure you hire someone to check for 007s
15:06 <@kanzure> hawaii? we can smoke stuff with garrett or wherever he is these days
15:06 -!- Cat4D_ [182bd7e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.43.215.226] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:06 < Cat4D_> fking webchat
15:06 < Cat4D_> many lots alohaliving subdivision:"kalapana vacation lots" lava on one side ocean on the other, outright purchase, 25$ tax per year.
15:07 < Cat4D_> 7-12k for 1/5 acre
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15:07 <@kanzure> okay cool. i was also looking at old missile silos as an option.
15:07 < Cat4D_> i got some of them too
15:07 < Cat4D_> setting up a museum in one cluster
15:07 < fenn> god i hate forums
15:08 <@kanzure> "A is for autoclave, B is for burner"
15:08 <@kanzure> http://tequals0.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/a_is_for_autoclave1.pdf
15:08 < yashgaroth> C is for cross-contamination
15:08 <@kanzure> D is for drosophila?
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15:09 < fenn> why does nathan want to use a blue diode instead of IR?
15:09 <@kanzure> E is for ecoli
15:09 < fenn> am i missing something here?
15:09 <@kanzure> fenn: simon quellen field from diybio was recommending it
15:09 <@kanzure> simon has some optics experience apparently
15:09 < fenn> okay but why?
15:09 <@kanzure> buut his answers to nathan's questions were really dismissive of using an actual laser tube
15:09 <@kanzure> yeah, he sota dropped the ball on that
15:09 <@kanzure> so anyway, we've been looking into it as an option
15:09 <@kanzure> so far the consensus seems to be no
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15:10 < fenn> i mean we are getting close to the diffraction limit for IR but still..
15:10 < fenn> "no" on what?
15:10 <@kanzure> i don't know anyone with a diode-cutter anyway
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15:10 <@kanzure> no on using a blue diode
15:10 < fenn> why no?
15:11 <@kanzure> they all seem to be <1W/mm or something
15:11 <@kanzure> 1W isn't going to cut glass
15:11 < fenn> we're not cutting glass
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15:11 < fenn> also, the channel is tiny
15:11 < Cat6D> a simple prism or mirror assy can easily merge beams, as long as you have them aligned sufficiently, otherwise you can do overlapping beam systems and have better continuity
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15:12 < fenn> what is the required power density to vaporize PDMS and/or acrylic?
15:12 < fenn> without these numbers we're flying blind
15:12 < Cat6D> zero, fenn
15:12 < Cat6D> its lim(0)
15:12 <@kanzure> fenn: it might be nice to cut glass, but yes it's not a requirement
15:12 < fenn> Cat6D: not true, there is thermal conductivity
15:12 <@kanzure> "Petridish CEO Matt Salzberg on the Science Exchange Blog:" http://blog.scienceexchange.com/2012/03/guest-post-matt-salzberg/
15:12 < Cat6D> at point size also lim(0)
15:13 < fenn> we're not dealing with points, the channel has a finite width
15:13 < Cat6D> then you just flash it
15:13 < fenn> ?
15:14 <@kanzure> this is after pdms polymerizes
15:14 <@kanzure> fenn: does this paper look useful?
15:14 <@kanzure> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4341853&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F4341639%2F4341640%2F04341853.pdf
15:14 <@kanzure> "Relationships between laser power, pulses per inch, and laser traverse speed and ablation profile patterns are established. A strong linear relationship (R2=0.9951) between cut depth and laser power is demonstrated. "
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15:15 < Cat8D> webchat is throttling... wtf
15:15 < Cat8D> cut or print the mask, tie it to the ceiling mirror, which projects down through whatever lense (if needed) to the target
15:15 <@kanzure> Cat8D: you could use another irc client.. what os are you on
15:15 <@kanzure> Cat8D: we're not polymerizing pdms.. we're cutting it
15:15 < Cat8D> its the isp above here thats the problem
15:16 < Cat8D> with the fool usdoj wire taps
15:16 <@kanzure> err, i mean, we're polymerizing pdms but then cutting it
15:16 < fenn> i'm not sure we're inhabiting the same reality tunnel
15:16 < Cat8D> so, figure out the cut energy required and your pass rate
15:16 < fenn> yes exactly, that's what we're doing
15:17 < Cat8D> and wether you need a direct target or passive material
15:17 <@kanzure> fenn: is that the paper we need? also this should be in some charts somewhere on the interwebs..
15:17 < Cat8D> which then dictates your entry angle option
15:17 <@kanzure> angle entry is perpendicular :P
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15:17 <@kanzure> *entry angle
15:17 < Cat8D> but you should be most concerned about the flashpoint energy, because your cut down deep will still heat the upper sections
15:17 -!- Cat6D [182bd7e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.43.215.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
15:18 < Cat8D> especially with micro scale films
15:18 < Cat8D> or whatever you are building
15:18 <@kanzure> microfluidic chips
15:18 < Cat8D> dna channels
15:18 <@kanzure> yep
15:18 < Cat8D> why not composit them? is there much difference in layup vs cut?
15:18 < Cat8D> and be sure to include what resulting surface characteristic you need, fenn
15:19 < Cat8D> boiling poly makes a toxic mess
15:19 < Cat8D> so your debris has to be accomoodated too, it will stick wherever you stick it
15:20 < Cat8D> which means, typically, you still need two additinoal layup processes, film on both sides
15:20 < Cat8D> after the cut
15:20 < Cat8D> -- this has to be part of the rig
15:20 < Cat8D> bonding can be done the same way
15:20 < Cat8D> I assume you saw the solar furnace in the desert video last week?
15:21  * fenn grumbles about paywalls
15:21 < Cat8D> human should never be near those
15:21 < fenn> here's the paper
15:21 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/laser_ablation_profile_power.pdf
15:21 < Cat8D> yep
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15:23 < Cat8D> haha not enuff pictuers in that
15:23 < fenn> wtf is all this % stuff, can't they use acutal units?
15:23 < Cat8D> no result graph either
15:23 < Cat8D> but the words aer correct
15:23 <@kanzure> gah "Power %"
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15:23 <@kanzure> what the hell
15:23 <@kanzure> oh fenn beat me to it
15:23 < Cat8D> ok, so, you need a big tool and a gate
15:23 < Cat8D> so yo udont care
15:24 < Cat8D> you can always filter or sunglass the source
15:24 < Cat8D> see if you can find a sufficient diode with 1-5w with controllable power
15:25 < fenn> so it's a 60W CO2 laser tube running at 1060nm (prolly 1064nm)
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15:25 < fenn> and 254cm/s movement
15:25 < fenn> so, math time
15:25 < Cat8D> ok, if you have this, great
15:25 < Cat8D> 60w co2 is massive
15:25 < Cat8D> what is its cut rate?
15:25 < fenn> 254cm/s
15:25 < Cat8D> cm2/s?
15:25 < fenn> that doesn't make sense does it
15:26 <@kanzure> fenn: says 60W
15:26 < Cat8D> what is that example cutting?
15:26 <@kanzure> damnit how is fenn reading faster than me
15:26 < fenn> 2 cups of oolong :P
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15:27 < Cat8D> what price for your 60w co2? couple hundred max
15:27 <@kanzure> haven't picked one out yet
15:27 < Cat8D> just remember your lenses have to be pure, especially at that power, you'll cook a microscope lense
15:27 <@kanzure> what about 30W?
15:28  * Cat8D thinks um channels should be about 3w
15:28 < fenn> their full-depth channel is 700 microns wide, that's huge
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15:28 < Cat8D> ok
15:28 < Cat8D> so its blasting the entire channel one pass
15:28 < Cat8D> stinky
15:28 <@kanzure> yes .. although we could just cut a channel w/ edges
15:28 <@kanzure> 100 micron-wide channels
15:29 <@kanzure> but min. feature size involves things like curves at <100 microns
15:29 -!- n_bentha [~lolicon@75.111.160.104] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:29 < n_bentha> yashgaroth!
15:29 < yashgaroth> !
15:29 < n_bentha> you use UPS Next Day Air Saver® ?
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15:29 <@kanzure> n_bentha: did he kill your colonies again
15:29 < n_bentha> haha yes
15:29 < Cat8D> ya, dont try to cut those, just goo them and let it settle cleanly
15:29 < yashgaroth> I do occasionally why
15:29 < n_bentha> but i redid the experiment w/ another minion, and they worked!
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15:29 < n_bentha> yashgaroth: i was wondering around what time you expect them to deliver
15:30 <@kanzure> Cat8D: "goo them"?
15:30 < yashgaroth> uhh 11ish?
15:30 < n_bentha> goo them!
15:30 < Cat8D> vaporize debris, leave liquid material to coat the channel surface
15:30 < n_bentha> 11am or pm?
15:30 < yashgaroth> am
15:31 <@kanzure> Cat8D: if we cut just the edges of the channels, we will probably use tape or some peel-off method to extract stuff
15:31 < Cat8D> there are special mix poly for that, i assume you already checked through the options
15:31 <@kanzure> no
15:31 <@kanzure> don't assume anything like that :)
15:31 < azonenberg> kanzure: i've done photolithography using homebrew technology at 20 micron feature sizes
15:31 <@kanzure> azonenberg: so we're building a laser prototyping system so that i don't have to wait for things to set or make masks or do DLP
15:31 < azonenberg> sorry for the slow response, was in a meeting on campus
15:31 < azonenberg> Ok
15:31 < n_bentha> :( they haven't delivered all day....stupid residential deliveries
15:31 <@kanzure> azonenberg: how long was your build time?
15:31 < azonenberg> kanzure: not very
15:32 <@kanzure> well, more than 30min?
15:32 < azonenberg> i already had a spin coater, printer, and microscope
15:32 <@kanzure> no i mean per photolithographed design
15:32 < azonenberg> oh
15:32 < azonenberg> spin coat wafer = ~5 mins plus dry time on hot plate
15:32 <@kanzure> sure sure
15:32 < azonenberg> exposure depends on strength of the lamp but 5-10 mins
15:32 < azonenberg> then develop is a minute or two
15:32 < fenn> units '60W/(700micron*0.25*254cm/s)' = 13.5 J/cm^2
15:32 < Cat8D> cm3 fenn
15:32 < azonenberg> i was etching copper about a micron thick
15:33 < azonenberg> so the etch i used took like 15 seconds
15:33 <@kanzure> azonenberg: exposure/curing took only 10min?
15:33 < yashgaroth> oh well residential's a different matter...they don't really deliver after 3
15:33 < Cat8D> your material spec should have an energy rating that you can convert juels
15:33 < azonenberg> kanzure: this is for photoresist
15:33 < azonenberg> yes
15:33 < azonenberg> i need a few hundred mJ/cm^2
15:33 < azonenberg> this is exposure, not ablation
15:33 < n_bentha> ugh. i want to go to the gym from 6-9
15:33 < n_bentha> bastards!
15:33 <@kanzure> i think we could probably use photoresist ?
15:34 < azonenberg> Also, its positive resist
15:34 < azonenberg> as in it starts out insoluble (in 1% NaOH)
15:34 < azonenberg> upon exposure to light it becomes soluble
15:34 < azonenberg> but its only meant as a masking material for acidic or neutral etches
15:34 < yashgaroth> you sure you have to sign for it?
15:34 < azonenberg> not for making permanent structures
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15:34 < fenn> film thickness is 0.015 inch, so 3542 J/cm^3
15:34 < Cat8D> fenn reverse that math and solve based on material blasting value for the entire volume
15:34 < fenn> sorry 0.0015 inch
15:34 < azonenberg> other resists, like SU-8, are negative
15:34 <@kanzure> azonenberg: there was this pdms / silicone polymer paper that said that typical cure time is 2 days.. unless you do 80C, then it's 4 hours
15:34 < azonenberg> meaning they start out soluble
15:35 < azonenberg> but become completely insoluble on exposure
15:35 < azonenberg> and two days??
15:35 < Cat8D> .2m/sec is a lot of vibration too
15:35 < azonenberg> normal IC fab exposure times with a ~2 kW lamp
15:35  * n_bentha is missing judo practice for this shit
15:35 < azonenberg> are like 15 seconds
15:35 <@kanzure> well yeah that's 2 kW :)
15:35 <@kanzure> interesting
15:35 < azonenberg> i'm using a halogen which is only like 20W and doesnt emit very much UV
15:35 < yashgaroth> well just judo the ups guy when he arrives
15:35 < azonenberg> so after losses in the optics 10 mins is reasonable
15:36 < azonenberg> but anything longer sounds totally unrealistic
15:36 < azonenberg> that time, btw, is for the FOV of say a 10x microscope objective
15:36 < azonenberg> larger is tricky
15:38 < Cat8D> fenn what is your actual dissipation?
15:38 <@kanzure> "The recommended cure time for Dow Corning Sylgard 184 is 2 hours at 65C. Increasing the process temperature increases the cure rate, so this time can be reduced to 1 hr at 75C or 30min at 85C. Similarly, decreasing the process temperature to room temperature increases the cure time to two days."
15:38 <@kanzure> this is from http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-11.log
15:38 <@kanzure> paper http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/61615
15:39 <@kanzure> azonenberg: ^
15:39 < n_bentha> lol
15:41 <@kanzure> oh actually, maybe sylgard 184 is not a photocurable?
15:41 <@kanzure> that would make more sense
15:44 < ParahSailin> sylgard 184 is just a two part thingy mix to cure
15:44 <@kanzure> derp
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15:45 < fenn> .015 inch is the correct thickness, so 354 J/cm^3
15:46 < azonenberg> kanzure: lol, that would make sense
15:46 < azonenberg> because SU-8 cures in like 15 seconds of UV exposure i think
15:46 < ParahSailin> su-8 needs to be cooked after exposure
15:46 < azonenberg> ParahSailin: i'm talking about the exposure time
15:46 < azonenberg> not post-bake and such
15:46 < azonenberg> i think its comparable to normal photoresist
15:46 < fenn> Cat8D: i dont know actual power dissipation, presumably it can be calculated from materials reference values
15:46 < kanzure> well overall build time matters too
15:47 < azonenberg> though i will say the only stuff i've actually used myself is shipley SP24D photoresist
15:47 < ParahSailin> oh, yeah just misunderstood "cures"
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15:47 < kanzure> laser cut for 10 minutes vs. photocure for 10min (but +2 hours baking) is way different
15:47 < fenn> 2 hours is not too ba
15:47 < fenn> ...d
15:48 < fenn> hell i spend that long going over email and backlog each day :p
15:49 < kanzure> 2 hours per compile will suck
15:51 < fenn> how the hell does their laser move at 2.5 meters per second?
15:51 < fenn> i'm finding this hard to believe
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15:53 < kanzure> fenn: belt?
15:54 < fenn> blah the manufacturer spec sheet is damaged
15:54 < fenn> can anyone read this document? http://www.assuredlaser.com.au/english/laser_systems/product_line/specs/9200.pdf
15:56 < Cat12D> 1982?
15:56 < fenn> nevermind it probably doesn't even say what the max speed is (unusual, that)
15:56 < fenn> what kind of spec sheet doesn't say how fast it goes
15:57 < Cat12D> all the ones youve looked at
15:57 < kanzure> OCR says it says "#$!$#*(*(*><.,,>>#@"
15:58  * Cat12D plays in lava 
15:59 < ParahSailin> im not that good at regex kanzure
16:04 < n_bentha> heya
16:04 < n_bentha> fenn
16:04 < n_bentha> i fixed ur pdf
16:05 < n_bentha> i'll upload it hold on
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16:05 < fenn> their spec sheets are useless, don't bother
16:05 < fenn> i emailed ULS asking to verify the info from the paper
16:06 < n_bentha> http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=00620952405370662715
16:06 < n_bentha> and for future reference if your pdf's get jumbled: https://www.pdf-tools.com/osa/repair.aspx
16:07 < n_bentha> stupid XL-9200 lazers
16:10 < kanzure> the correct vernacular is lazors
16:11 < n_bentha> oh. yashy: practice is at 7pm >.<
16:11 < n_bentha> but still they better hurry up and deliver the goods!
16:11 < kanzure> do you have a tracking number
16:12 < n_bentha> yeah
16:12 < Cat12D> laser lazors
16:12 < fenn> i'm so sick of fucking companies and their bullshit price quote bullshit just fucking let me order it you fuckers
16:13 < n_bentha> haha price quotes
16:13 < kanzure> so how about a site that sits on top of these other sites
16:13 < kanzure> and has pricing data from other users
16:13 < fenn> "the product was not formulated for this application" SO FUCKING WHAT I WANT IT SELL IT TO ME
16:15 < Cat12D> shopping.google.com has a few in the 400 range
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16:24 < fenn> how can a standard dna synthesizer be so expensive? it's just valves and tubes
16:24 < fenn> $150k go blow it out your ass
16:25 < kanzure> fenn: i was talking with joe kaufman today about this,
16:25 < kanzure> apparently he has 30 years of oligo industry experience
16:26 < kanzure> it's something about purity or error rates
16:26 < fenn> it's just parameter fiddling
16:26 -!- rkos [~chatzilla@a88-113-144-253.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:26 < fenn> i could write a computer program to do it in a day
16:26 < kanzure> although he also gave me the argument that nobody wants a desktop synthesizer because "you can just order it for $2 online"
16:26 -!- rkos [~chatzilla@a88-113-144-253.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:26 < fenn> bullshit
16:26 < fenn> nobody want to pay $150k for a desktop synthesizer when you can order it online
16:27 < kanzure> he also claims that quake's pdms pressure valves don't work
16:28 < fenn> that's a different issue
16:28 < diginet> does anyone know roughly how long it would take to regenerate a pretty small plant from a callus culture? I've seen number s on the order of 2 months or so?
16:28 < fenn> a bunch of valves and tubes doesn't cost $150k, plain and simple
16:28 < fenn> if these machines were manufactured in the 80's, all the patents have expired by now
16:29 < fenn> or $37.5k either, whatever
16:30 < fenn> i imagine people would be interested in a modern device with ethernet+usb interface etc
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16:30 < kanzure> yes
16:31 < kanzure> also: tacking on software to old devices might be nice
16:31 < fenn> oh like a interface kit?
16:31 < kanzure> yes and replacing whatever version of DOS they are using :)
16:32 < fenn> what happened to these companies, are they still around?
16:32 < kanzure> yes there are a few
16:32 < fenn> perhaps they could be persuaded to part with internal technical documentation
16:32 < fenn> schematics etc
16:32 < kanzure> applied bio got acquired and is no longer making them (joe k confirmed)
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16:32 < kanzure> azco biotech is really just one guy who has a good site that makes him look larger
16:32 < fenn> if anyone can actually find the documentation by now
16:33 < kanzure> kaufman is doing a 192-column machine "not commercially available- contracted with something- modified vesion for Azco to sell in China"
16:33 < kanzure> *version
16:33 < kanzure> biolytics in freemont - he makes the blt 192, 384... dr. oligo
16:33 < kanzure> GE bought AKTA and those are still being made http://www.gelifesciences.com/Images/highres/%C3%84KTA%20oligopilot%20w%20comp.jpg
16:34 < kanzure> but this is also AKTA so i'm confused. http://www.avecia.com/Avecia/files/images/sub/pic/oligo-pic1.jpg
16:34 < fenn> so many tubes
16:34 < kanzure> he knew about gen9 bio (the blue heron spinoff)
16:34 < fenn> dont they only need ~7 reagents
16:35 < fenn> yeah the first pic looks correct
16:35 < kanzure> these are still active: bioautomation, biolytics, azco, oligomaker in denmark, biosearch
16:35 < kanzure> http://www.bioautomation.com/
16:36 < kanzure> http://www.biolytic.com/
16:36 < kanzure> http://www.azcobiotech.com/
16:37 < kanzure> i think this is biosearch? http://www.biosearchtech.com/
16:37 < kanzure> http://www.oligomaker.com/
16:37 < Cat12D> just take a picture of all of them, merge/solve, and make your own
16:37 < kanzure> i think biosearch just does refurb
16:38 < kanzure> joe k claims that the after-market is enough to support all the synthesis companies
16:38 < fenn> what do these new machines cost?
16:38 < kanzure> oligomaker is at least $60k euros
16:38 < kanzure> joe k sold those synths i showed you yesterday for >$150k
16:39 < kanzure> azco bought them or something
16:39 < Cat12D> i have countries that will sponsor you if you do it good...
16:39 < fenn> why is he selling used machines?
16:39 < kanzure> Cat12D: orly?
16:39 < kanzure> fenn: some synthesis company was liquidating
16:40 < fenn> um, i mean why is azco selling used machines
16:40 < fenn> he has his own product line
16:40 < Cat12D> you gots some work to get clean tolerances
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16:40 < n_bentha> omg i gots the package!!!!
16:40 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: archels, Thorbinator, malaimo
16:40 < katsmeow-afk> did the delivery guy live?
16:41 < kanzure> fenn: i might have heard wrong :(
16:41 < fenn> azco does sell "refurb machines" but their website sucks too much to access that page
16:41 < n_bentha> i scared him real bad but i think he'll be alright
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16:42 < kanzure> "Azco Biotech, Inc. 3626 Ocean Ranch Blvd, Oceanside, CA 92056" oh i thought they were in arizona
16:43 < kanzure> "Prior to starting Azco, J was a Director of Business Develpment for Transgenomic from 1998 to 2004. He was a Business Development manager for Rohm and Haas from 1995 to 1998"
16:43 < kanzure> huh, biz dev for haas
16:43 < Cat12D> hey thats right next to my new googvoice fone number
16:43 < Cat12D> kan / fenn did you find suitable parts?
16:43 < fenn> i think raymond maccauley works for a synthesis company
16:43 < fenn> Cat12D: what parts?
16:43 < kanzure> no he worked for a sequencing company (illumina)
16:44 < fenn> ah well that's boring
16:44 < fenn> :)
16:44 < kanzure> yep
16:44 < kanzure> was it illumina? hrm
16:44 < kanzure> haha google suggests "raymond mccauley illumina" as a search
16:45 < kanzure> http://www.linkedin.com/in/raymondmccauley
16:45 < kanzure> pfft lists him as working at genomera
16:45 < kanzure> "Research Fellow, Scientific Advisory Board, DIYgenomics, 2010"
16:45 < kanzure> aha yes it was illumina (solexa)
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16:47 < fenn> what pdms thickness are we planning on using?
16:47 < fenn> can we really spin coat whatever thickness we want?
16:48 < fenn> they chose 0.015 inch film "because it was the thickest available" which seems like and odd choice
16:49 < fenn> an*
16:49 < kanzure> haven't determined yet
16:49 < kanzure> btw, if it really only takes 10 minutes to photocure, should we do that?
16:49 < kanzure> per azonenberg's experience
16:50 < fenn> i was on the photocure bandwagon from the beginning
16:50 < azonenberg> again this is for IC fab photoresist so i dont have any experience with photocuring polymers
16:51 < azonenberg> spin coating thickness is dependent on spin speed and viscosity of the liquid
16:51 < azonenberg> up to bounds where it doesnt spread uniformly
16:51 < azonenberg> i've done films ranging from probably a couple of microns to tens of nm
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16:57 < fenn> this method of squeezing pdms between two plates has been used to make films down to 50um: http://blogs.rsc.org/chipsandtips/2012/04/18/easy-and-inexpensive-fabrication-of-pdms-films-of-different-thicknesses/
16:57 < fenn> i'm wondering what hardness is being used
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16:57 < fenn> i'm currently trying to sample some UV cure "flexible" epoxy (hardness 95 shore A)
16:58 < fenn> manufacturer is being a bitch though
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17:04 < kanzure> "/chipsandtips/2012/04/18/"
17:04 < kanzure> 1) that's a really horrible blog name ("chips and tips".. and dip?)
17:05 < kanzure> 2) from today?
17:06 < fenn> apparently
17:07 < fenn> there are photocure PDMS resins available, i.e. gelest RMS-033
17:07 < fenn> another terrible website.. submitted an info request
17:10 < fenn> chips and tips is interesting read http://blogs.rsc.org/chipsandtips/
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17:24 < kanzure> yeah
17:24 < kanzure> i like
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17:30 < fenn> i'd imagine a harder material can be used if the film thickness is smaller
17:30 < fenn> epoxy might not have the porosity problems of PDMS
17:30 < kanzure> acrylic too :p
17:31 < fenn> i guess you could make acrylic films by solvent evaporation (it dissolves in acetone i think)
17:34 < kanzure> or you can just etch a depth into a thicker sheet and bond the exposed side to your other material
17:37 < fenn> "We would like to acknowledge a grant provided by the Department of Science and Technology, Government of India"
17:37 < fenn> why doesn't the US fund stuff like this?
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17:38 < fenn> "stuff like this" = paper on how to connect tubing to microfluidics chips
17:38 < kanzure> there's lots of tubing papers out there :x
17:39 < fenn> i guess i'm just annoyed by the general poor quality of "how to" information
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18:17 < kanzure> http://fiji.sc/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi
18:17 < kanzure> http://fiji.sc/wiki/index.php/Fiji
18:17 < kanzure> imagej gui
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18:40 < kanzure> hackerspace space fed / darpa call going on at the moment.. https://atrium.schoolfactory.org/spacefed/node/106574#comment-3283
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19:44 < brownies> is that about hackerspaces, or about space, that big empty thing out there?
19:44 < kanzure> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 9:41 PM, David Treadwell wrote:
19:44 < kanzure> > Bryan, excellent news!
19:44 < kanzure> >
19:44 < kanzure> > Why yes, I do have some experience with photocurable polymers. Some years
19:44 < kanzure> > ago, I was asked to develop a dental restoration composite, which I did. It
19:44 < kanzure> > never did become a commercial product, but the system worked well.
19:44 < kanzure> > Trust me, if dental composites took 15 minutes to cure, or had to be baked
19:44 < kanzure> > at all, no dentist would ever use them. A typical dental composite might
19:44 < kanzure> > take under a minute's exposure to high-intensity blue light. Other systems
19:44 < kanzure> > can be much, much faster.
19:44 < kanzure> > There are a number of systems in common use based on either radical or
19:44 < kanzure> > acid polymerization. There may be a few others I don't know about (yet).
19:44 < kanzure> brownies: hackerspaces. some hackerspace org got a DARPA grant for space exploration. i don't know.
19:47 < kanzure> fenn: implicitcad update?
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19:53 < brownies> kanzure: interesting.
19:53 < kanzure> nmz787: check backlog. http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-18.log
19:55 < nmz787> k
20:12 < kanzure> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/02/open-science-revolt-occupies-congress/
20:15 < kanzure> http://blog.okfn.org/2012/04/17/launching-the-open-data-census-2012/
20:15 < kanzure> http://www.dontpaytwice.org/
20:16 < kanzure> huh.. "The World Bank adopted an OA policy today for peer-reviewed articles, research reports, and monographs, to take effect July 1, 2012."
20:17 < kanzure> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/apr/09/frustrated-blogpost-boycott-scientific-journals
20:17 < kanzure> what is this scraping? http://openingscience.org/archive
20:18 < kanzure> it looks like it might be either (a) manually currated or (b) watching some RSS feeds
20:18 < kanzure> eww it's tumblr?
20:19 < kanzure> linkbaity title from figshare :| http://figshare.com/blog/A%20YouTube%20%20for%20Scientists/11
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21:04 < nmz787> ok up to speed kanzure
21:06 < kanzure> cool
21:06 < nmz787> kanzure: fenn: photocure + cast and peel won't let us do clean interconnects... becase if we have a post in the mold, the liquid PDMS will wick/surface tension up the post and will look like a volcano/mountain after being peeling, instead of just a hole
21:06 < nmz787> its good to know the quake valves have some mistrust
21:06 < nmz787> but they're all over the place in lit, so tho general concept seems alright
21:07 < katsmeow-afk> coat them with something PDMSphilic and maybe won't wick
21:07 < kanzure> yeh i'd like to meet someone who can explain why they are so (apparently) "terrible"
21:07 < nmz787> I can cut PDMS no prob with a 25W CO2 laser at ~110 micron spot, but I don't remember what speed that was
21:08 < kanzure> what's the min. power to cut acrylic with standard laser cutters?
21:08 < kanzure> i have a chart somewhere.. bleh
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21:13 < nmz787> derr
21:13 < nmz787> i dunno
21:13 < nmz787> simon said 30W/cm^2
21:14 < nmz787> with 40W tube, 64,000 watts/sq mm into a 25*25 micron square
21:14 < nmz787> sorry he said sq mm
21:14 < nmz787> not cm
21:15 < nmz787> "If you are cutting through 3 mil plastic, you will want 30 watts persquare millimeter, and you will be able to cut over 300 millimetersper minute"
21:15 < nmz787> 3 mil is 76.2 microns
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21:16 < nmz787> we wanna cut 60-250 microns
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21:22 < Cat4D> yes, thats correct
21:23 < Cat4D> you can always reduce the energy both between and typically on the device
21:23 < nmz787> Cat4D: are you talkin to me ?
21:24 < Cat4D> but you want to concentrate on how you will keep your edges clean and the response of the material after zapping
21:24 < Cat4D> about you toward kanzure
21:24 < nmz787> not sure what you mean by reducing the energy between or on the device
21:24 < Cat4D> the light poly doesnt have much tendency to deform, but if you flash it too fast, it will pull
21:24 < fenn> nmz787: any reason we can't sandwich it between glass when casting? i don't think relying on surface tension for flatness is a good idea in the first place
21:25 < Cat4D> filter, prism, % pass mirror, etc
21:25 < fenn> just put a large circle in the photocure pattern in the first place
21:25 < Cat4D> fenn, unless its bound entirely, it may still pull
21:26 < Cat4D> but this can be handled with a pulse pattern
21:26 < nmz787> fenn: spin coating is a proven technique, i trust one plate vs two plates for flatness
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21:26 < Cat4D> or more complex tooling shape
21:27 < nmz787> with spin coating, we know at least one side is smooth, the other side depends on the manufacturing tolerance of the surface... though i guess float glass should be pretty smooth
21:27 < fenn> i figure if we have to cast it at all, might as well cast it with the pattern we want in the first place
21:27 < ParahSailin> pdms will stick to float glass
21:27 < nmz787> Cat4D: we want to avoid pulsing, we don't want a dot matrix print job, we want REAL vector lines
21:27 < fenn> use a mylar transfer layer
21:28 < ParahSailin> the thing with pdms is that smoothness doesnt matter
21:28 < ParahSailin> the stuff is an elastomer
21:28 < nmz787> Cat4D: not sure why we'd have a filter, prism, or $ pass mirror
21:28 < fenn> right
21:28 < Cat4D> what cooling/cure method do you need with those materials?
21:28 < nmz787> well, by smoothness i mean uniform thickness
21:28 < fenn> er, wait, you're both wrong
21:29 < fenn> say what you mean dammit :P
21:29 < fenn> flatness doesn't matter, smoothness does matter
21:29 < nmz787> you mix PDMS with some crosslinking agent, spin-coat/press between plates in a sandwich, then bake at 80 C for two hours
21:29 < Cat4D> pdms wont pull away from the channel too much?
21:29 < nmz787> uniform thickness matters to me
21:29 < fenn> 2 hours?
21:30 < ParahSailin> pdms deforms real easily
21:30 < nmz787> smoothness too, but that should be pretty good anyway as long as the plate is clean
21:30 < ParahSailin> as long as there is no gross uniformity, it will flow to fill in
21:30 < kanzure> my materials dood is saying photocuring should take less than 10min
21:30 < Cat4D> if you use two modes (2d tool), you should be able to clear and then surface the target channel
21:30 < nmz787> PDMS doesnt photocure
21:30 < kanzure> could we find a photocuring silicone polymer thing
21:30 < fenn> yes
21:31 < ParahSailin> why you want photocure?
21:31 < kanzure> digital light projection
21:31 < kanzure> micromirror array from texas instruments
21:31 < kanzure> shine light with picoprojector
21:31 < kanzure> change mask without fucken masks
21:31 < fenn> gelest RMS-033 is a photocure siloxane rubber
21:31 < nmz787> then we're limited by pixel size and chip resolution
21:31 < ParahSailin> i dont think pdms is very photodefinable
21:31 < kanzure> nmz787: true.. but same thing with a laz0r
21:32 < kanzure> i suppose smooth movement with a stage would be nice
21:32 < fenn> a laser plotter would have higher resolution
21:32 < ParahSailin> thought you guys were going with ablation etching
21:32 < nmz787> except lazor is being designed for 6x6inch with 0.19 micron step resolution
21:32 < kanzure> so did i
21:32 < fenn> DMD is just faster
21:32 < fenn> anyway, i'm buying cheap stuff on ebay just to see if it works
21:32 < nmz787> oh I forgot to mention degassing
21:32 < nmz787> before spinning and baking
21:33 < nmz787> or sandwiching and baking
21:33 < nmz787> what are we talking about to see if it works? the CNC gantry?
21:33 < fenn> well i have some steppers + linear slides already
21:33 < fenn> so i got some $2 laser modules and lenses
21:33 < nmz787> I already have done above steps from sylgard 184 from fedex to cutting with CO2 laser and metrology with interferometer
21:34 < fenn> if the spot size is so small, i don't believe the laser must have a high power
21:34 < fenn> havent done the calculations yet
21:34 < nmz787> right
21:35 < nmz787> i did exp with a 25 or 30W CO2 laser with a ~100 micron spot size
21:35 < nmz787> so logically a smaller spot will work better
21:35 < nmz787> or the same with less power
21:35 < fenn> you fucked up the square conversion again
21:35 < nmz787> which?
21:35 < fenn> units 'sqrt(300mW/(30W/mm^2))' = 100 micron
21:36 < nmz787> dunno where you're gettin 300mW
21:36 < fenn> its my $2 laser diode's rated power
21:36 < ParahSailin> one of the nice things about solid photoresists is that the photoacid doesnt diffuse very quickly in solid phase
21:36 < kanzure> fenn: send me ebay links to buy things :(
21:36 < ParahSailin> allowing decent aspect ratios
21:36 < nmz787> the actual measured beam width that i used was ~100 microns as measured
21:37 < fenn> oh sorry i misread that
21:37 < nmz787> the actual laser tube power i used was 25 or 30W
21:37 < nmz787> max power
21:37 < fenn> apologies
21:37 < nmz787> k
21:37 < nmz787> sry i am up 16 hours now on 3 hours sleep
21:38 < nmz787> so i should really get to bed
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21:38 < fenn> yes go to bed, i will make some cad models
21:38 < nmz787> can you please write down the maths you do
21:38 < fenn> i pushed to diyhpluswiki
21:38 < nmz787> ok, what is the link :(
21:38 < nmz787> i need to bookmark it to the back of my eyelids
21:39 < kanzure> history: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki
21:39 < fenn> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/tree/projects/laser_etcher
21:39 < kanzure> actual file: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/laser_etcher
21:39 < kanzure> ok fenn's link is prolly better
21:40 < nmz787> fenn, the paper mentioned used 1064nm, CO2 is 10600nm
21:40 < fenn> i wish the u prefex for micro- worked by default in units
21:40 < fenn> er, really
21:41 < fenn> it was 10.6 something, guess that's not 1064
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21:41 < nmz787> yah, 1064 is some nd:yag or crap, one of those DPSS i think
21:41 < kanzure> fenn: just fyi i don't think nmz787 knows about the all mighty magic of 'units'
21:42 < kanzure> but he's on ubuntu so he could install it / or already has it
21:42 < nmz787> heh, i'm on windows 7 with a dual core i7 8gb ram... with virtualbox ubuntu
21:43 < nmz787> theres also frink, which i've not learned, but a roomie uses for crazy conversions
21:43 < kanzure> that sounds completely unnecessary
21:43 < nmz787> :P
21:43 < nmz787> i like oneNote
21:43 < nmz787> at least the i7 does some alright hardware virtualization support
21:44 < kanzure> yeah i am using an i7 in my laptop too
21:44 < nmz787> well physicsforums.com blows... 210 views 0 replies on the laser optics question i posted
21:44 < kanzure> NEWB might be throwing them off
21:44 < kanzure> write it out:P it's "newbie"
21:44 < nmz787> maybe
21:45 < fenn> "Frink allows Object-Oriented Programming, which allows you to create complex data structures that are still easy to use."  er... okay
21:45 < nmz787> guess i'm too hacker for the physisiststststs
21:45 < kanzure> or noob, n00b, newbie, etc.
21:45 < yashgaroth> nub, nublar
21:45 < fenn> units is just a calculator with unit conversion
21:46 < kanzure> show him a demo
21:46 < fenn> it doesn't have variables or arbitrary unit creation, unfortunately
21:46 < kanzure> you can modify the data file
21:46 < fenn> kitty:~/fab/diyhpluswiki/projects$ units inch mm * 25.4
21:46 < fenn> er, that didn't paste right
21:47 < fenn> really he should just install it and try it, there's no excuse not to
21:47 < nmz787> we should tell people we're using wavelets... then they might think we are actually doing more than systems integration...
21:47 < nmz787> lol, ok, i will install tomorrow
21:48 < kanzure> sudo apt-get install units
21:48 < nmz787> k
21:48 < nmz787> that package cant be authenticated
21:48 < nmz787> !!!
21:48 < kanzure> aroo?
21:49 < nmz787> that garbage popped up yesterday when i installed something too
21:49 < nmz787> no idea why
21:50 < fenn> maybe you messed up your keychain
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21:51 < nmz787> i think it started after i dpkg -i a .deb
21:51 < nmz787> which failed, then i aptget install -f it
21:51 < kanzure> that shouldn't cause it
21:51 < nmz787> fixed the package deps
21:51 < kanzure> jrayhawk: help?
21:51 < nmz787> yeah, so whatev, its not broken
21:51 < nmz787> unless my VM is somehow hacked
21:51 < nmz787> all my sandbox sekrets!
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21:57 < nmz787> so i said 5 mm
21:57 < nmz787> then said microns
21:58 < nmz787> and it spit out 5000 (newline) / 0.0002
21:58 < nmz787> dunno what the 0.0002 is
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22:00 < kanzure> oh it might be just 'micron'
22:02 < nmz787> kanzure: chandni is really good with complex maths, like all them symbols and abstract stuffs
22:03 < nmz787> so if u know anyone note in security, but needin some math translator/fluent type
22:03 < nmz787> send her resume that way too
22:11 < kanzure> right
22:11  * kanzure sleeps
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23:32 < jrayhawk> apt-cache search archive-keyring
23:34 < jrayhawk> oh i guess it's just ubuntu-keyring in ubuntu-land
23:34 < jrayhawk> kinda sad
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 19 00:00:42 2012