--- Log opened Sun May 20 00:00:15 2012
00:00 < ParahSailin> the smallest excimer wavelength is 126nm, they are at 22nm dies
00:19 < nmz787> i thought is was excimer laser
00:25 < jenzebubble> kanzure, are you watching proleague
00:25 <@kanzure> jenzebubble: no?
00:25 < jenzebubble> http://www.youtube.com/esportstv
00:25 < jenzebubble> it helps if you speak korean
00:26 < jenzebubble> but awesome either way
00:28 <@kanzure> my korean is pretty rusty
00:35 < nmz787> mo ha sayo
00:36 < nmz787> kanzure: https://www1.hitachigst.com/hdd/research/storage/as/index.html
00:37 < nmz787> write a control scheme for a hard drive, get some plastic wrap and some magnetic beads and some PDMS???
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03:36 < fenn> rawr
03:50 < fenn> so magnesium glycinate is pretty awesome
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06:52 <@kanzure> oof https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/commits/
06:59 <@kanzure> "Aerobic Microbial Respiration in 86-Million-Year-Old Deep-Sea Red Clay" http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6083/922.abstract
06:59 <@kanzure> "Microbial communities can subsist at depth in marine sediments without fresh supply of organic matter for millions of years. At threshold sedimentation rates of 1 millimeter per 1000 years, the low rates of microbial community metabolism in the North Pacific Gyre allow sediments to remain oxygenated tens of meters below the sea floor."
06:59 <@kanzure> "We found that the oxygen respiration rates dropped from 10 micromoles of O2 liter−1 year−1 near the sediment-water interface to 0.001 micromoles of O2 liter−1 year−1 at 30-meter depth within 86 million-year-old sediment. The cell-specific respiration rate decreased with depth but stabilized at around 10−3 femtomoles of O2 cell−1 day−1 10 meters below the seafloor."
06:59 <@kanzure> "This result indicated that the community size is controlled by the rate of carbon oxidation and thereby by the low available energy flux."
07:14 < chevbird> im thinking of picking up "age of spiritual machines".  thoughts?
07:15 <@kanzure> don't do it
07:15 <@kanzure> it will only make you want to punch ray
07:16 < chevbird> oh yea?
07:16 <@kanzure> 'the singularity is near' is slightly more bearable
07:16 <@kanzure> 'ending aging' might be ok
07:17 <@kanzure> 'nanosystems' if you're into reading technical things.. http://gnusha.org/stuff_to_deal_with/nanosystems.tar.gz
07:17 <@kanzure> or have some scifi.. http://heybryan.org/docs/Zindell,%20David%20-%20Neverness%20(v1.0).txt
07:21 < chevbird> why the hate? (never read anything by him so this is a real question)
07:22 <@kanzure> there's many reasons.. let's start with the hate for "the age of spiritual machines"
07:22 <@kanzure> from what i recall, it was largely a book about his (mis)understanding of "conscioussness" and robots
07:23 <@kanzure> TSiN was a revision of the book anyway, and is generally regarded as much more thorough
07:24 <@kanzure> for a few of the reasons on hating ray, i defer you to sir hatealot: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/
07:25 < chevbird> haha ok i see it now
07:25 <@kanzure> also, he snubbed my handshake attempt, so there's that
07:25 <@kanzure> :p
07:25 < chevbird> also found this from hofstadter: "It’s as if you took a lot of very good food and some dog excrement and blended it all up so that you can't possibly figure out what's good or bad. It's an intimate mixture of rubbish and good ideas, and it's very hard to disentangle the two"
07:26 <@kanzure> as far as i can tell, the way that ray did his books was by hanging out on extropy-chat for a few years
07:26 <@kanzure> and then compiling every email that was sent out, into a giant book
07:26 <@kanzure> you can tell because the list of names in his 'bibliography' is literally a direct list from the extropy-chat membership roster
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09:00 < ParahSailin> nanoimprint lithography looks interesting
09:00 < ParahSailin> if that ends up being the next gen lithography, i think that could shake up the whole industry
09:01 < ParahSailin> i think it might make ASIC cheaper
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09:11 < ParahSailin> interesting economic analysis here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-generation_lithography
09:11 < ThomasEgi> talking about nanostuff. i do remember seing some sort of project that printed micrometer 3d structures without layering stuff. i think they focused a laser into some gel or so
09:23 <@kanzure> aw it turns out i only have two nanoimprint lithography papers. i'm so disappointed in myself.
09:23 < ParahSailin> this implies that to get a distributed model of chip fab, we can't rely on development done by intel
09:24 < ParahSailin> and we should independently develop nanoimprint
09:24 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos
09:24 < ParahSailin> i know
09:24 < ThomasEgi> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzHsaJdz9a0
09:24 < ThomasEgi> that's the one i remembered
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09:47 < ParahSailin> http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-78.pdf
09:48 <@kanzure> dynamo and modelica are fun
09:48 <@kanzure> oh, not the same dynamo
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10:10 < docl> has something like dry ice sublimation of ln2 evaporation been explored as a possible way to generate pressure for a jetcutter?
10:10 < docl> s/of/or
10:11 < docl> I was thinking LN2 last night, but dry ice is safer to handle.
10:11 < ParahSailin> didnt someone ask that in #opensourceecology?
10:11 < ParahSailin> or was that here
10:12  * docl mentioned it here last night
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10:16 < docl> Environmental issues and concerns have lead the researchers to use such mediums and abrasives that do not require disposal, recycling or lead to pollution. Work is going on in the area of high-pressure cryogenic jet machining (Fig. 16) where liquid nitrogen replaces the water phase and dry ice crystals (solid CO2 crystals) replace the abrasive
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10:21 < docl> http://nptel.iitm.ac.in/courses/Webcourse-contents/IIT%20Kharagpur/Manuf%20Proc%20II/pdf/LM-37.pdf
10:26 <@kanzure> "Module 9: Non-conventional machining" heh
10:29 < docl> CO2 has an expansion ratio of 1:554 whereas LN2 is 1:694. I'm not sure that's enough to power a jetcutter on it's own though. A pump is probably still needed.
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10:34 < docl> I wonder... If you had a super-cold needle and scratched it over a relatively warm metal plate, could you cause selective contraction to the point where it breaks pieces off?
10:43 < jrayhawk> fenn: i assume the chelated forms, along with being better absorbed, cause less digestive disruption?
10:52 <@kanzure> "openscad 2011.12 is finally an official debian package"
10:52 <@kanzure> http://packages.debian.org/sid/openscad
10:52 <@kanzure> that's via chrysn@fsfe.org
11:06 < docl> More on LN2 jets... Apparently they are used to slice soft biopolymers. http://books.google.com/books?id=eT6IFaoJzd0C&pg=PA57
11:24 < docl> hah, looks like industrial ln2 cutting is a thing: http://www.nitrocision.com/
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12:55 <@kanzure> "See also Applied Biosystems, Inc. v. Cruachem, Ltd., 772 F. Supp. 1458, 1466 (D. Del. 1991) (mailing samples of an infringing product may constitute direct patent infringement)"
12:56 <@kanzure> http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=19912230772FSupp1458_12024.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006
12:56 <@kanzure> "FACTS: BIO is the assignee and owner of two patents pertaining to the chemical synthesis of DNA: U.S. Patent No. 4,415,732 for phosphoramidite compounds and processes and U.S. Patent No. 4,458,066 claiming a process for preparing polynucleotides. It filed this action alleging that certain phosphoramidite reagents and DNA synthesizers manufactured and distributed by defendants infringe these patents."
12:56 <@kanzure>  The complaint asserts three counts: for direct patent infringement, for inducing patent infringement, and for contributory patent infringement."
12:57 <@kanzure> " In an earlier filed and related patent suit in this Court, Applied Biosystems, Inc. v. Cruachem, Inc., CA 89-579-JRR, ABIO has also sued Inc. Because Inc. is a Delaware corporation, there is no question that this Court can exercise personal jurisdiction over Inc. in the related action."
12:59 <@kanzure> "Second, in 1986, Ian Wilkie and Brendan Hamill of Limited, and Joseph Hall and Hugh Mackie of Inc., came to Delaware to meet with representatives of DuPont, to discuss a joint venture to develop a DNA synthesis instrument."
12:59 <@kanzure> "Third, in 1989, Inc. sent free samples of the types of phosphoramidite reagents at issue in this action to DuPont's research facility in Wilmington, Delaware. More specifically, in an unsuccessful attempt to induce DuPont to set up an account, Inc. sent samples of four reagents to the DuPont Experimental Station for their internal research use. (D.I. 35 at 152-55). Inc. did not seek Holdings approval or even inform Holdings of this shipment to DuP
13:00 < nmz787> what is this all kanzure?
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13:02 <@kanzure> "The strongest support for ABIO's argument that mailing the samples provides specific jurisdiction under Section 3104(c)(3) is Honeywell, Inc. v. Metz Apparatewerke,509 F.2d 1137 (7th Cir.1975), which also considered issues of personal jurisdiction in a patent case."
13:03 <@kanzure> nmz787: applied biosystems suing some dna synthesizer company in 1991
13:03 <@kanzure> for mailing nucleotide samples.
13:03 < nmz787> can patents be renewed?
13:10 < chris_99> almost certain they can't
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14:56 < upgrayeddd> someone should try patenting the idea of renewing patents
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18:21 < docl> "Despite its preposterous coldness, liquid nitrogen has only 15% more cooling power than the same amount of ice at 0° Celsius."
18:22 < docl> http://www.cookingissues.com/primers/liquid-nitrogen-primer/
18:23  * docl doubts this fact.
18:28 < docl> The cooling power of the liquid to gas phase transition is not the same as the total cooling power of the liquid. Most of that gets lost when the vapor expands.
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21:13 <@kanzure> http://inventables.blogspot.com/2012/05/40k-desktop-factory-competition-to-make.html
21:13 <@kanzure> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rocknail/filabot-plastic-filament-maker
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21:23 < joshcryer> I hate deathists.
21:24 < joshcryer> It would cause me great annoyance except the fact that they're going to die. Ha, ha.
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21:54  * n_bentha wonders what a deathist was
21:56 <@kanzure> n_bentha: people who are dead, i guess?
21:57 < Burninate> given context, probably someone who has given up on living forever
21:57 < n_bentha> i gave up on that a long time ago
21:58 < n_bentha> although...if i could just drink a potion and be immortal, you can bet that i would do it
21:58 < n_bentha> eating, shitting, pissing, etc are over-rated
21:58 < n_bentha> +breathing too
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22:07 < joshcryer> More so people who are resigned to dying.
22:07 < joshcryer> That is, in a short term view, ie, 100 years, etc.
22:07 < joshcryer> This wouldn't describe someone who wanted to live 200 trillion years until heat death.
22:08 < kanzure> "A statement issued by Millipore explains "Pursuant to the settlement agreement, ABI received a paid-up license under the Koester patent, Millipore received a paid-up license under the Caruthers patents, and Biosearch, Inc., a license under the Caruthers patents before it became a subsidiary of Millipore, agreed to pay an undisclosed sum to ABI in lieu of future royalty payments and in exchange for a similar paid-up license.""
22:09 < n_bentha> I'm all for living longer (1000 years+), but I just don't think that it will be achievable in my lifetime. Does that make me a deathist?
22:09 < joshcryer> n_bentha, are dismissive of cryonics?
22:09 < joshcryer> are you, rather
22:09 < kanzure> joshcryer: cryonics hasn't been demonstrated to work yet, except on small tissue samples
22:10 < n_bentha> much work to be done in cryonics
22:10 < n_bentha> but i don't think it's impossibl;e
22:10 < kanzure> joshcryer: i'm not entirely happy with how little testing alcor has been doing.. what, they are too busy freezing people? i doubt it
22:10 < n_bentha> but that's not really 'living'
22:11 < joshcryer> kanzure, I'm not sure what "demonstration" has to do with anything
22:11 < kanzure> "Did patents hinder the rice sequencing effort? It seems clear that patents did drive up the cost of equipment above what it would have been in the absence of the patents."
22:12 < kanzure> where da fuck did they pull that conclusion from? they show one of rob carlson's graphs, but that doesn't have anything to do with patents..
22:12 < joshcryer> n_bentha, eh, you don't 'die' when you go to sleep, from the point of view of cronicists 'death' is 'deanimation.' ie, 100 years ago a stopped heart was a death sentence, yet now we routinely restart them (and sometimes intentionally stop them).
22:13 < n_bentha> ok nbut if u live for 100 yeras, then get frozen
22:13 < n_bentha> 1000 years pass and you get woken up
22:13 < n_bentha> then you didn't really live for 1100 years
22:13 < n_bentha> like...you can claim to be 1100 years old, but you didn't do anything for 1000 years except be frozen
22:13 < kanzure> http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/blr.1997.16.381
22:13 < kanzure> 1997 {BLR 2417} DNA Synthesis Equipment - PE Applied Biosystems - Pharmacia Biotech. : Perkin-Elmer Unit Sues Over DNA Synthesis — PE Applied Biosystems Says Pharmacia Biotech Is Infringing Several Patents
22:14 < joshcryer> n_bentha, that's getting into tricky territory. You could be filled with 1000 years of experiences to help you catch up in a sim that runs at 1000x the normal rate of time, etc.
22:15 < kanzure> "According to a company officer, Pharmacia Biotech has 'refused to accept [the licensing] terms standard in the industry ... [and] this action [the suit] is necessary to protect our position and that of our licenses."
22:15 < kanzure> hehehe biosearch accused ABI of antitrust http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/blr.1985.4.305
22:15 < n_bentha> I'd be worried about how that would affect one's attitude and mental state. Would be interesting to see it tested though.
22:16 < n_bentha> Us scientists are naturally skeptical; however, we must keep experimenting.
22:18 < kanzure> "In the counterclaims, Biosearch specifically alleges that Applied Biosystems has used its monopoly power in the DNA synthesis market by refusing to honor the warranty on its synthesizers if customers purchase reagents from companies other than Applied Biosystems."
22:18 < kanzure> "Additionally, Biosearch alleges misuse of the patents by Applied Biosystems' refusal to sell in the future, certain reagents to purchasers of isntruments from companies other than Applied Biosystems."
22:19 < n_bentha> Patent Wars need to end
22:20 < joshcryer> Patents need to end.
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22:26 < kanzure> "Additionally, the Court rejected Promega's statements that Applied Biosystems and Roche had made false claims to the U.S. government in connection with their sales of Taq DNA polymerase, which is used to perform the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) technology."
22:26 < kanzure> "together with their Applied Biosystems/MDS Sciex Instruments partnership, today announced that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit upheld the judgment of the U.S. Court for the District of Delaware ruling in favor of Applied Biosystems and MDS Inc. in a patent infringement lawsuit against Micromass U.K. Ltd. and its U.S. subsidiary, Micromass, Inc., both divisions of Waters Corporation."
22:26 < kanzure> "Micromass was found to infringe U.S. Patent No. 4,963,736. The patent covers technology for triple quadrupole mass spectrometers. The court upheld both the injunction previously granted against the sale of infringing Micromass mass spectrometers and the damage award of $52.6 million to Applied Biosystems and MDS Inc."
22:26 < kanzure> $52M for mass spec infringement?
22:29 < kanzure> "do you know that during the genome days Celera was obligated to buy ABI supplies at list price and not allowed to dilute the big-dye, while the genomic centers got big discounts and dilute the reagents by 20x"
22:33 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:45 < kanzure> geh http://www.flworkshop.com/Community/Seafood/Instrument_Business_Outlook_2007-05.pdf
22:46 < kanzure> "Hey Bryan, There is a huge article about Meredith Patterson that mentions you, but by first name only. Way to keep a low profile. Are you going to BioCurious in June?"
22:46 < kanzure> hrmm
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22:47 < kanzure> let's see. what article could that possibly be.
22:52  * joshcryer sighs
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23:02 < kanzure> oahack@librelist.com might be something interesting
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23:03 < kanzure> eh maybe not. http://librelist.com/browser/oahack/
23:04 < kanzure> what is matt senate doing there?
23:05 < kanzure> bleh.. http://startupscience.eventbrite.com/
23:05 < nmz787> where?
23:06 < kanzure> but, when i look closer, it's (1) june 16 and (2) "network for open scientific innovation"
23:06 < kanzure> so that means it's probably joseph jackson
23:06 < nmz787> are you/we talking about synthesis at either of the two events in SFbay?
23:07 < kanzure> yes, i was going to talk about diy dna synthesis and microfluidics, among some other topics
23:07 < kanzure> they had some "rules" for how they want the presentations to go down for groups
23:07 < kanzure> but uh.. screw dem rules?
23:08 < nmz787> what about at sci startup
23:08 < nmz787> we should pull the industry secret card
23:08 < kanzure> ah when you register on that eventbrite thing, it says "For questions about the event, contact the event organizer at joseph.jackson@gmail.com"
23:08 < kanzure> it seems sorta lame though. what does he want me to do there? we all know each other already...
23:09 < nmz787> i'm sure there will be someone you dont know
23:09 < nmz787> and def that i dont know
23:09 < kanzure> not based on that attendee list
23:09 < nmz787> so you can introduce me
23:09 < nmz787> etc
23:10 < kanzure> i can do that over the interwebs :p
23:10 < nmz787> psh
23:10 < nmz787> so do you know anyone that could help contribute to some custom CAD software for the microfluidics?
23:11 < kanzure> yes.
23:11 < kanzure> i think most of the cad related issues are down to a weekend or two of writing code (at least for 2d geometries).
23:11 < nmz787> i still think the best idea is to use a propeller to drive the gantry, based on some subset of gcode
23:12 < kanzure> i don't want to write a gcode parser for propeller
23:12 < kanzure> that seems silly :/
23:12 < nmz787> well then not gcode
23:12 < nmz787> we only need X and Y positioning
23:12 < nmz787> its not multiaccess or whatever
23:13 < nmz787> axis*
23:14 < nmz787> hmm yeah gcode seems way overkill
23:14 < nmz787> would you be interested in writing some sort of toolpath output from the cad design?
23:14 < nmz787> and i write the propeller end of things
23:18 < yashgaroth> so you guys are staying in SF through sunday right?
23:18 < kanzure> i'll need to think about it. i don't want to reinvent too many wheels.
23:18 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i think i leave sunday evening
23:18 < yashgaroth> ah okay that's my plan too
23:19 < yashgaroth> is there anything planned for sunday or is it the traditional orgy/coke binge?
23:19 < nmz787> yeah i can stay as long as i have a floor to crash on
23:20 < kanzure> yashgaroth: there might be joseph's thing, but it might be lame so maybe we'll go hang out at langton labs or raid halcyon molecular for equipment
23:20 < kanzure> oh we could also go crash 3scan
23:20 < yashgaroth> what about thiel's mansion? I want to steal some china or something
23:21 < kanzure> which mansion? there's at least two per major city i think
23:21 < yashgaroth> yeah probably
23:22 < kanzure> we could defecate on siai's lawn
23:24 < nmz787> well what CAD software are you going to start with?
23:24 < kanzure> i've been toying around with some code that generates svg, dxf, and step
23:25 < kanzure> from f-reps.
23:25 < nmz787> i think we could write a toolpath generator from an svg
23:25 < nmz787> we know the resolution of the gantry
23:25 < kanzure> it will probably look like implicitcad or something
23:25 < kanzure> i don't think svg->toolpath is a good idea, sorry
23:26 < nmz787> so scale appropriately, then feed pixel locations serially to the controller
23:26 < nmz787> why not?
23:26 < kanzure> the toolpath can be generated from the implicit geometry directly, rather than from an xml/svg file
23:27 < kanzure> i just got off of a 48 hour pokmeon binge. i need to sleep.
23:27 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/commits
23:27 < kanzure> good night
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--- Log closed Mon May 21 00:00:16 2012