--- Log opened Thu May 24 00:00:19 2012 00:18 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:02 -!- mako [~mako@118-93-5-109.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:02 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Quit: bbl] 01:14 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@CAcert/Vicarious] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:15 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:15 -!- bkero [~Ben@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:15 -!- Vicarious [diepfriet@CAcert/Vicarious] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:18 -!- bkero [~Ben@li280-127.members.linode.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:18 -!- bkero [~Ben@li280-127.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 01:18 -!- bkero [~Ben@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:36 < skorket> Anyone in the boston or portland area? 02:00 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:13 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-3d.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:13 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-3d.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:13 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:12 -!- chris_99 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:42 -!- Burninate [~ass@pool-173-66-18-189.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:42 -!- Burninate [~ass@pool-173-66-18-189.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:45 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:48 -!- Burninate [~ass@pool-173-66-18-189.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:48 -!- Burninate [~ass@pool-173-66-18-189.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:20 -!- azonenberg [~azonenber@2001:470:888b:2:206:70ff:fe01:46] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31 -!- Mokbortolan_1 [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:33 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:13 -!- mako [~mako@118-93-5-109.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:44 -!- Burninate [~ass@pool-173-66-18-189.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:44 -!- Burninate [~ass@pool-173-66-18-189.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:14 < kanzure> skorket: yep 07:24 < skorket> kanzure, you're in boston? 07:29 < kanzure> skorket: no, but there are others in here in boston 07:29 < kanzure> skorket: have you visited bosslab? 07:37 < skorket> kanzuer, no, what's that? 07:37 < skorket> kanzure, you're in portland? 07:38 < kanzure> no, but jrayhawk and Mokbortolan_1 and bkero are. 07:38 < skorket> ah, you're neither, you're just pointing out there are others here.. 07:38 < kanzure> skorket: http://bosslab.org/ 07:38 -!- strages_work [~c6740838@dev.throwthemind.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:40 < skorket> that looks awesome. I hear boston is really a biotech hub 07:40 < skorket> I'm thinking I want to try and get a job there. 07:42 < bkero> Hello 08:17 -!- lichen|2 [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:19 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 08:31 -!- drazak_ [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:02 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:14 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:21 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@cpe-67-242-177-23.rochester.res.rr.com] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 09:22 < Mokbortolan_1> what? yes? 09:26 < audy> everyone wants a job! 09:28 < Mokbortolan_1> no they don't 09:36 -!- lichen|2 is now known as lichen 09:38 -!- Thorbinator1 [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:38 -!- Thorbinator [~Thorbinat@c-67-166-146-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:48 < audy> kanzure I heard you were working on a torrent of all published science 09:50 < kanzure> *cough* 10:14 -!- lichen|2 [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:17 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:20 -!- chris_99 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:32 -!- lichen|2 is now known as lichen 11:07 < skorket> anybody know of any biotech jobs for a programmer like me? 11:13 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:25 -!- LionClan [~omega19@76.240.194.134] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:26 < kanzure> skorket: that probably means bioinformatics. not sure what other gigs you're expecting? 11:27 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-25.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:27 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-25.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:27 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:27 < skorket> kanzure, I could imagine someone needing a programmer to develop/program a machine, but otherwise, yes, that's what I take it to mean as well... 11:29 < kanzure> well yes we can /imagine/ that, but in practice i haven't found that. 11:29 -!- LionClan [~omega19@adsl-76-240-194-134.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:30 < skorket> There isn't a market for people to make machines to do high throughput screening or some other automated task? Anyway, I really don't know, I'm not in the industry so I'm just guessing 11:30 < kanzure> i don't know anyone (or any company) that actually uses the cpan tecan module for liquid handling 11:31 < kanzure> there's somewhat of a 'grant-cycle market' for high-throughput screening machines, but from what i can tell most people never touch that software for a few reasons 11:31 < kanzure> first reason is warranties 11:31 < kanzure> second reason is because they paid enough to the original vendor that the vendor usually has a software support contract 11:31 < kanzure> i've heard some outlandish tales of really old lab equipment still under warranty or service 11:32 < kanzure> oh, an important third reason is that most people aren't like jcline and aren't going to reverse engineer the protocol or try to replace the machine's ROM :p 11:35 < skorket> I saw a paper a while ago on how to roll your own oligo nucleotide machine...it seems like with the availability of microcontrollers, the internet, etc, that home brew and cheap machines to do these common tasks would be taking off 11:35 < skorket> again, not like I really know what I'm talking about 11:37 < kanzure> cheap machines are definitely taking off, but labs still buy expensive equipment because they don't usually have the expertise to build the equipment on their own (or, if they are going to bother with building equipment, it will usually be something that doesn't exist yet) 11:38 < skorket> Is there anyone doing cheap lab equipment stuff? Or is there not really a market for it? 11:39 < kanzure> from what i can tell you can't buy a new dna synthesizer for less than $50k 11:39 < skorket> Anyway, getting back to the original goal of pimping myself...know of any bioinformatics jobs? 11:39 < kanzure> part of this is because there were some pretty hefty patent wars 11:39 < ThomasEgi> hm. equipment that needs tons of engineering effort and sells in low quantities. if there"d be a market they would be cheaper. 11:39 < kanzure> skorket: there's tons of bioinformatics work out there.. although not all of it pays a livable wage :P 11:40 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: haha yeah, it's certainly not the first thing you want to hear.. "oh yeah, and our customers have no money" 11:40 < skorket> of course, that was what the first computers were like... 11:40 < ThomasEgi> i am currently doing some progress with low noise amplifier circuits, but i doubt they are of any use for you guys 11:42 < kanzure> skorket: yes, but computing was entrenched in patents as well 11:42 < skorket> yep... 11:43 < kanzure> skorket: there are many people doing cheap lab equipment stuff, but no retailers selling "Sub $10k fancypants open source spectrophotometers" 11:43 < kanzure> and no retailers selling "Sub $20k scanning tunneling microscopes that actually work" 11:43 < skorket> yep...though all that stuff should be possible 11:43 < ThomasEgi> hm. i knew a raster electron microscope. 11:44 < skorket> no, I think ThomasEgi has got it, high engineering effort + low demand = high cost 11:44 < skorket> so I guess the next step is to lower cost and generate demand! 11:46 < kanzure> it's not that high cost to produce the equipment 11:46 < kanzure> it's only high cost if you want to use patents and litigate everyone into giving you a monopoly 11:47 < ThomasEgi> production is indeed not the cost problem 11:47 < ThomasEgi> but . engineering can eat tons of money 11:47 < ThomasEgi> for consumer electronic's it is not so bad. but lab equipment usualy pushes the limits 11:48 < ThomasEgi> and doing that successfully takes a lot of time, and engineers arent cheap. 11:48 < kanzure> most lab equipment is much simpler- in terms of number of components, features and functions- than consumer electronic devices 11:48 < skorket> but even getting something like a toaster or a coffee machine takes a tun of engineering effort 11:48 < ThomasEgi> as i said. it is not the cost of production. 11:48 < kanzure> skorket: maybe you're an awful engineer 11:49 < ThomasEgi> toaster is like one wire. 11:49 < skorket> kanzure, maybe you don't understand how much engineering goes into everyday objects 11:49 < ThomasEgi> takes zero ingeneering effort. 11:49 < kanzure> so you're telling me a toaster is complicated? 11:49 < kanzure> or what precisely 11:49 < skorket> I was thinking more along the lines of a coffee machine, but I could see a toaster getting a little tricky 11:50 < ThomasEgi> i mean. anyone can build an audio-amplifier. most engineers can build a good audio amplifier in a matter of hours or days. but building one that has really superb performance can take monthes. 11:50 < skorket> for example, you need to make sure the timer is right. You might want to have some fuses, make sure they work. You need to make sure the coil is just the right distance away from the toast, etc... 11:50 < jrayhawk> and liability gets expensive 11:50 < ThomasEgi> jrayhawk, that's another point indeed. 11:50 < skorket> Look, even things like 'wc' or 'grep' take a ton of engineering effort. Easy to do simply, easy to do wrong, difficult to do right and robust... 11:51 < kanzure> maybe you're just bad at writing software too? 11:51 < skorket> are you serious? 11:51 < kanzure> no, i've never seen your code 11:52 < skorket> to me, kanzure, it sounds like you're not so experienced with product development if you can dismiss engineering effort so readily 11:52 < kanzure> i'm not dismissing it 11:52 < skorket> ah, you're just dismissing me then, ok 11:52 < kanzure> yes 11:52 < kanzure> to be fair, my first toaster sucked 11:53 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, you shouldn't. altho the toaster example is a bit oversimplified. skorket still has a valid point. 11:53 < kanzure> it was supposed to be a blinken-LED circuit 11:53 -!- chris_99 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 11:54 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: i think such a project is wholly within the abilities of an engineer 11:54 < ThomasEgi> a toaster. sure 11:54 < ThomasEgi> but a dna-synthesizer takes a lot more than a toaster 11:54 < kanzure> if one person can't understand a person, what makes you think N>1 will? 11:54 < kanzure> wtf 11:54 < kanzure> if one person can't understand a system 11:55 < kanzure> is what i meant. 11:55 < skorket> huh? 11:55 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, if you have multiple persons everyone can focus on one part of the system 11:55 < kanzure> that's useful when you want to speed things up or if the problem is decomposable in some significant way 11:56 < ThomasEgi> pretty much every problem can be split into smaller ones 11:56 < ThomasEgi> for some systems you simply need multiple people. 11:56 < kanzure> still, i do think that something even as ridiculously big-of-a-project as, say, a space shuttle, could be done by a single person 11:56 < kanzure> (perhaps not assembly) 11:57 < skorket> umm, I would say that there exist problems that can't be decomposed but that all solvable problems can be 11:57 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, it could be done but not within the lifetime of one human 11:57 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: i think copenhagen suborbitals proves you wrong on that one? although they aren't building shuttles, so poor choice of words on my part for this example. 11:57 < ThomasEgi> a one man rocket is not a spaceshuttle 11:57 < ThomasEgi> that's pretty much the same as comparing a hangglider with an airbus 11:58 < kanzure> another example is CAD. opencascade has 100s of people. none of them understand their own code. it's totally trash and garbage. if you don't have one person understanding it completely, things are going to go south very quickly. 11:58 < ThomasEgi> just because both can fly 11:58 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: yes i know, that's why i said it was a bad word choice for that example. sorry. 11:58 < ThomasEgi> it still doesn't change the original point of the discussion 11:58 < kanzure> that you need 100s of people to build lab equipment? 11:58 < ThomasEgi> that lab equipment is expensive because it requires a lot of engineering effort 11:58 < ThomasEgi> no you don't 11:58 < kanzure> quantify a lot 11:59 < ThomasEgi> depends on the equipment. 11:59 < ThomasEgi> but it can easily reach many man-years of work 11:59 < kanzure> thermocycler. 11:59 < ThomasEgi> thermocycler is a weekend project 11:59 < kanzure> a thermocycler is about one man-week. 11:59 < kanzure> right. 11:59 < kanzure> openpcr took about a year. but they were also dicking around. so whatever. 12:00 < kanzure> a centrifuge. 12:00 < kanzure> (oh also they had no hardware experience) 12:00 < skorket> there's also a difference in making a tool for yourself or your lab and making a tool to be sold to others 12:00 < ThomasEgi> as i already said. it depends. if it is "regular" stuff. not that much engineering is required. but if you are going to push the limits. you will need a lot of time and experience 12:00 < kanzure> ThomasEgi: nothing about common lab equipment pushes any limits. 12:01 < kanzure> except perhaps the limits of my tolerance 12:01 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, i have to disagree with you. 12:01 < kanzure> (note: dna synthesizers aren't considered common lab equipment) 12:02 < ThomasEgi> great performance of equipment wont come out of the blue 12:02 < ThomasEgi> and if the things you want to do is little known and poorly documented in general. you'll have a hard time making stuff work. 12:03 < kanzure> definitely. 12:03 < ThomasEgi> so.. where did we get of the discussion anyway? 12:03 < ThomasEgi> before we started arguing why lab stuff is expensive? 12:04 < kanzure> skorket wanted to know if there was a market for cheap equipment 12:04 < ThomasEgi> hm. there probably is some demand. but noone supplies cheap equipment 12:04 < ThomasEgi> i mean. who doesnt want cheap equipment? 12:05 < kanzure> i don't know if there is demand though 12:05 < kanzure> i know everyone says they want cheap equipment 12:05 < kanzure> but when the grant rolls around, you're going to type in $50k for equipment. 12:06 < ThomasEgi> hm. my old neighbour's dad worked at a chemistry lab. the whole company went down the drain so they ended up closing the lab, selling the equipment for bargain. 12:06 < ThomasEgi> his dad ended up with his entire hous packed full of very expensive equipment 12:07 < kanzure> you mean previously expensive equipment :P 12:07 < ThomasEgi> guess. if you can get your hands on it on a budget. and i am not talking bout 50k here but something you'd spend on a hobby project... then i bet people would actually buy it 12:07 < ThomasEgi> yeah.. well it is still high quality 12:07 < kanzure> yeah, because of regulations, companies also regularly purge old equipment that ends up getting sold for very cheap prices (although, it's not always working); then there's the refurbishment market 12:08 < kanzure> i was thinking about a little experiment 12:08 < kanzure> skorket asked about a cheap equipment market 12:08 < kanzure> i know there's labx, ebay and other liquidation events to get access to equipment 12:08 < ThomasEgi> hm. that means you'll have to know where to get it. it is not exactly the "buy an experimentation kit on ebay for 150$" thing i had in mind 12:08 < kanzure> but what about an explicit market for cheap equipment. /not/ auctions. 12:08 < kanzure> auctions aren't how you encourage companies to sell cheaper equipment. 12:09 < ThomasEgi> would indeed be an interesting experiment 12:09 < kanzure> not sure what it would look like. 12:09 < ThomasEgi> silkroad for lab equipment? 12:09 < ThomasEgi> labroad? 12:09 < kanzure> why would it be anonymous? 12:10 < ThomasEgi> was just kidding^ 12:10 < kanzure> trying to be hip :P 12:10 < ThomasEgi> popularity hardly ever hurt business. 12:11 < ThomasEgi> afk for a while.. will be back later 12:12 < kanzure> the fbi sent out an email exposing everyone's email address -_- 12:12 < kanzure> "Everyone is invited on the evening of June 13 to a special event being hosted by Nancy Burgess from the Defense Threat Reduction Agency. Further details on the where and when are to follow, but the evening activity will focus on innovation and technology" 12:12 < kanzure> defense threat reduction agency? 12:12 < kanzure> what am i getting involved in.. 12:13 < ENKI-][> "defense threat reduction" is code for "kill everyone with an interest in gene sequencing before they design a virus" 12:14 -!- skorket [~skorket@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:23 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Threat_Reduction_Agency 12:23 < kanzure> "The Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) is an agency within the United States Department of Defense and is the official Combat Support Agency for countering weapons of mass destruction (chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, and high explosives)." 12:23 < kanzure> "DTRA employs 2,000 civilian and military personnel at more than 14 locations around the world, including Russia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, and Ukraine" 12:24 < kanzure> "DTRA was established in 1998 by consolidating several DoD organizations, including the Defense Special Weapons Agency" 12:24 < kanzure> "DTRA's vision is "to make the world safer by reducing the threat of weapons of mass destruction."" 12:25 < kanzure> "Defense’s Nuclear Agency, 1947–1997, traces the development of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project (AFSWP), and its descendant government organizations, from its original founding in 1947 to 1997. After the disestablishment of the Manhattan Engineering District (MED) in 1947, AFSWP was formed to provide military training in nuclear weapons’ operations." 12:26 < kanzure> "DTRA sponsors the journal WMD Insights." pfft i should totally publish something in that 12:33 < kanzure> i wonder if they would be willing to train me in "nuclear weapons operation" as well? 13:06 -!- drazak [~ahdfadkfa@drazak.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:42 < docl> I guess the interesting question is what the low hanging fruit is as far as lab equipment? What are the weak points of the problem? 13:43 < docl> What could demand be generated for most effectively by lowering the cost per unit? 13:43 < docl> What could have its engineering be easily partitioned among several open source projects? 13:44 < docl> What gets cheapest the fastest as economies of scale increase? 13:48 < kanzure> it's all pretty low hanging as far as i can tell. most thermocyclers aren't going to need a millionth degree of precision 13:49 < docl> how much demand for thermocyclers? 13:51 < docl> I guess it's something every bio lab needs? 13:52 < kanzure> yes every biology lab has thermocyclers. 13:52 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:54 < docl> how cheap could it be / is it? 13:54 < kanzure> well openpcr sells it for an outrageous $512 13:54 < kanzure> but it's <$100 in parts 13:54 < kanzure> and most commercial ones go for >$5,000 13:55 < delinquentme> OpenPCR - the $599 Personal PCR Machine / Thermal Cycler 13:55 < delinquentme> gotta squeeze that change 13:55 < kanzure> oh, $599 now? fuck that 14:00 < kanzure> i don't understand why nobody is selling a $100 thermocycler 14:00 < kanzure> if someone wants to make a product at that price point, let me know. 14:05 -!- calango [~dnm@pdpc/supporter/active/calango] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:11 -!- delinquentme_ [~bob@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:15 < delinquentme> kanzure, yeah its ridic .. the girl i was chatting about bio stuff with is trying to do that 14:16 < delinquentme> but she started out with a machined metal body ... lol so thats kinda in the wrong direction already 14:16 < delinquentme> delinquentme_, HIO 14:16 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:18 -!- delinquentme__ [~bob@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:19 -!- delinquentme__ [~bob@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19 -!- delinquentme [~bob@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:19 < kanzure> ParahSailin: where do professors order their equipment from? do you have a catalog you can give me 14:22 -!- delinquentme_ [~bob@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:24 < kanzure> http://www.thermoscientific.com/ecomm/servlet/productsdetail_11152_L10880_88611_11952949_-1 14:24 < kanzure> "Request Quote" ok *click* 14:24 < kanzure> "A request for quote has been added to your cart" 14:24 < kanzure> FAIL 14:26 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:28 < kanzure> 82% discount? http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-40X-2000X-Biological-Microscope-Mechanical/dp/B004UMDLAA/ref=sr_1_5?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1337894843&sr=1-5 14:29 < kanzure> yashgaroth: can you givem e the name of some product catalogs for centrifuges etc.? 14:29 < brownies> delinquentme: link to her work? 14:29 < yashgaroth> like, manufacturer catalogs? 14:29 < kanzure> yeah 14:29 < kanzure> prices. 14:29 < kanzure> with product ids and things. 14:29 < brownies> yashgaroth: yeah, are they printed catalogs? how could i get a copy? 14:30 < yashgaroth> what's wrong with online listings? 14:30 < delinquentme> I could connect you with her brownies 14:30 < delinquentme> i dont think shes got an email up 14:30 < kanzure> yashgaroth: nobody orders from the online listings really 14:30 < delinquentme> webpage rather 14:30 < brownies> delinquentme: sure, sounds interesting 14:30 < yashgaroth> moreso than paper catalogs 14:30 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i'm pretty sure they are still flipping through their thermofischer or sigma catalog 14:30 < brownies> yashgaroth: well, when you need a giant $10000 machine, what do you do? 14:31 < yashgaroth> most companies or labs have an associated rep assigned to them from X centrifuge company 14:31 < delinquentme> brownies, you wanna pm me your email? 14:31 < brownies> delinquentme: sure 14:32 < brownies> and then you ask the rep to get you the price for whatever you need? 14:32 < yashgaroth> yep 14:32 < brownies> educational buying works in a similar way, actually. i rather hate it. 14:33 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i was just explaining to him that hitachi, mitsubishi, thermofischer, and all these other companies produce lab equipment 14:33 < kanzure> e.g. http://www.hitachi-koki.com/himac/centrifuges/cp_wx/cp_wx.html 14:33 < yashgaroth> hell mitsubishi makes biopharma drugs themselves 14:34 < kanzure> oh? 14:34 < yashgaroth> mitsibishi tanabe research 14:34 < kanzure> http://www.mt-pharma.co.jp/e/ 14:34 < kanzure> hm 14:35 < yashgaroth> my previous company sold them one 14:35 < kanzure> sold them one what? 14:35 < yashgaroth> a (potential) drug 14:35 < brownies> yashgaroth: so, does your company just proclaim "we will buy all our stuff from Thermo" and then you get a rep, and that's that 14:35 < brownies> or do you have a variety of reps from all the companies that supply you 14:35 < yashgaroth> no, most of that stuff is from lab surplus places 14:35 < brownies> lab surplus? what do you mean? 14:36 < yashgaroth> used lab equipment vendors 14:36 < kanzure> refurbished, liquidations, auctions 14:36 < yashgaroth> labx, labsurplus, labtrader, ebay 14:36 < yashgaroth> university sales too, good deals there sometimes 14:37 < brownies> yashgaroth: how does one find a university sale? 14:37 < kanzure> browsing random sites 14:37 < brownies> sorry for dumb questions, just trying to grok the whole supply chain 14:37 < yashgaroth> uni website, they all have one hidden somewhere 14:37 < kanzure> F7 is notorious for religiously looking at auction feeds from 100s of sites 14:38 < kanzure> F7 why aren't you logged in :| hmph 14:38 < brownies> yashgaroth: mind linking to an example? 14:38 < yashgaroth> http://surplus.ucsd.edu/AdvancedSearch.aspx?id=3 14:38 < brownies> thanks! 14:39 < yashgaroth> usually '[university's initials] surplus' will find it, though some are better about displaying prices than others 14:40 < yashgaroth> brownies: re: your previous question, they usually force you to go through a rep since retail prices are much higher than the "deal" a rep will give you 14:41 < yashgaroth> especially when buying in any sort of bulk, or an expensive machine 14:41 < kanzure> how much of a deal? 14:41 < yashgaroth> 10-20% as a very rough average 14:41 < kanzure> 10% of msrp? 14:41 < yashgaroth> and free pizza 14:41 < brownies> 10-20% discount, or 10-20% OF the msrp? 14:41 < kanzure> or 10% off msrp? 14:42 < yashgaroth> wait what's the difference here 14:42 < kanzure> $10k machine for $1k, or 9$k 14:42 < yashgaroth> there is no MSRP since the mfg.er is also the vendor 14:42 < brownies> if the sticker price is $1000, do they... yes, thanks. 14:42 < yashgaroth> oh, 9k 14:42 < yashgaroth> often a free ipad as well 14:43 < kanzure> a free.. ipad. 14:43 < yashgaroth> it's the big thing now...I preferred pizza 14:45 < brownies> next time, try and negotiate for $500 of free pizza instead ;) 14:46 < yashgaroth> if they'd let me buy the expensive equipment...I only bought a lot of reagents from lifetech and they're terrible at freebies 14:47 < yashgaroth> side note, we had a lab manager who spent most of his time just negotiating between the dozen companies that supplied X reagent until he got the lowest price 14:49 < yashgaroth> equipment purchase is more based on whether we already have the same model, what people have experience with, and what they hear good things about; rather than the endless negotiating 14:50 < brownies> yashgaroth: what's an example of such a reagent, where you need a lot and there's a lot of competing suppliers? 14:50 < brownies> yashgaroth: yea that makes sense, re: the equipment 14:50 < yashgaroth> any basic chemical, Tris for example 14:50 < yashgaroth> or pipette tips 14:50 < brownies> ah, those damned pipette tips. 14:51 < yashgaroth> we switched tip suppliers every couple months 14:51 < brownies> was there any noticeable difference? how'd you know you switched suppliers? 14:51 < yashgaroth> same with gloves actually 14:51 < yashgaroth> oh, the boxes are different colors and such 14:52 < yashgaroth> and often we discovered why they were cheaper; bad aspiration, void volumes, tips falling off pipettes, all that 14:56 < brownies> ah i see 14:57 < yashgaroth> the one thing we never did was buy the pipette manufacturer's tips, which I think are reserved for labs with more money than sense 14:58 < brownies> heh 14:58 < brownies> fascinating stuff 14:58 < brownies> so would you then tell your buyer "hey these tips sucked, don't buy from them again" ? 14:58 < brownies> or were you just stuck with whatever he felt like buying every couple months? 14:58 < yashgaroth> nah he'd respond to complaints, but when you've ordered 2 months' worth of tips you have to stick with it til they run out :/ 14:59 < brownies> also, one more dumb question: do you remember his official job title? 14:59 < brownies> heh yea fair 14:59 < yashgaroth> I think just lab manager...he made buffers and plates and such, but mostly he was on the phone 15:00 < brownies> oh, interesting, interesting. 15:00 < brownies> makes sense, i suppose. 15:00 -!- chris_99 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:00 < yashgaroth> "oh thermo has that for $55/kg, can you go lower? $50, you say?" hangs up and calls thermo "they say $50/kg, can you go lower?" and repeat 15:00 < brownies> oh FFS... searched LinkedIn for "lab manager" and its thrown off by all the local geniuses calling their startup a "lab" -_- 15:00 < brownies> yashgaroth: what a pain ;) 15:01 < yashgaroth> we imagine he got to fuck a lot of the reps, and he did seem quite happy with his job, but that's all speculation 15:01 < brownies> is it like pharmaceutical sales reps? 15:02 < yashgaroth> also the title of 'lab manager' is pretty generic, but for a small company that title usually covers ordering 15:02 < brownies> fascinating. 15:02 < yashgaroth> sort of like pharma, but they're dealing with people who know their stuff, not doctors 15:03 < brownies> haha 15:08 < yashgaroth> my personal interactions with reps was usually only at vendor shows, where one must feign interest to get free food 15:08 < yashgaroth> then a week later a package arrives with some T75 flasks I'll never use, and they keep calling about how the flasks are working out 15:09 < yashgaroth> I never asked for those goddamn flasks 15:13 < brownies> oh haha 15:13 < brownies> yashgaroth: oh, one more question. are there any universities that are well-known for having a lot of surplus that they sell? 15:14 < brownies> or, more generally, what's the indicator that a university might have a lot of surplus? i imagine it's not just *size*... maybe? 15:14 < yashgaroth> not really, a lab will go with whoever's local more than anything...big public unis are a good bet 15:14 < brownies> yeah, figured. alright. 15:14 < yashgaroth> I guess a strong bio program wouldn't hurt 15:16 < yashgaroth> haven't compared many myself, but UCSD is way better than UW...UW did always have free glassware out back of the chem building though 15:22 < brownies> haha 15:22 < brownies> how'd you find out about the glassware? 15:22 < yashgaroth> wandering around on campus 15:22 < yashgaroth> did a lot of nighttime capture the flag, good times 15:24 < brownies> hahah 15:24 < brownies> nice 15:24 < brownies> yeah, we had a spot in the Physics building where you could get free computers if you timed it right 15:25 < yashgaroth> oh we had a ton of that, what with microsoft constantly showering the UW with free computers 15:25 < brownies> hah 15:56 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:59 -!- roksprok_ [~roksprok@12.144.116.122] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:03 -!- roksprok__ [~roksprok@12.144.116.122] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:06 -!- roksprok_ [~roksprok@12.144.116.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:07 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:08 -!- delinquentme_ [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:09 -!- NonFish[ [~lurking@99.115.137.128] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:11 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:11 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:12 < roksprok__> does anyone live in berkely/know how good the transit is? 16:12 -!- chris_99 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:12 -!- roksprok__ is now known as roksprok 16:13 -!- NonFish_ [~lurking@99.115.137.128] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:13 -!- NonFish[ is now known as NonFish_ 16:14 < roksprok> also kanzure you mentioned 100 dollar thermocycler...don't retail products usually have to sell for 3x parts at least to cover returns, supply, other stuff? 16:14 < kanzure> $5 microcontroller, $10 peltier, it's not going to be that expensive 16:15 < kanzure> you're already failing pretty hard with a $5 microcontroller. that's just downright incompetent. 16:15 < kanzure> roksprok: BART is pretty good transportation 16:15 < roksprok> is that busses or subway? 16:15 < kanzure> subway 16:15 < kanzure> there are also busses but i've never used them 16:16 < roksprok> cool is there a sublet website? like does airbnb do that? 16:17 < kanzure> airbnb is a good first step if you want to try to find other places to live 16:17 < kanzure> or you can find a friend to stay with 16:18 < roksprok> I don't think i have any friends in sf bay :-P 16:18 < kanzure> aww that can't possibly be true 16:18 < kanzure> what about all the diybio people 16:18 < kanzure> gourneau keeps offering to lend some space to sleep at 16:18 < roksprok> on diybio mailing list? 16:18 < kanzure> brownies: maybe you have a small hole that roksprok could live in? 16:19 < kanzure> roksprok: sure.. 16:19 < roksprok> brownies: also what would be a minimum cost per month of living there in the summer? 16:19 < kanzure> depends on if you have roommates or not 16:20 < kanzure> $1200-$1500/mo would be doable i think 16:20 < roksprok> thats not too bad 16:21 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:23 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:24 < roksprok> looks like lots of 35 dollar places on airbnb....though i wonder if it is normal to use people's kitchens? 16:30 < roksprok> how is indoor fireplace an amenity but 'use of kitchen' not 16:31 < kanzure> fireplaces? those still exist? 16:32 < roksprok> and people apparently make place-of-staying decisions based on the presence of one 16:32 < kanzure> yes.. decisions like 'not' 16:34 < yashgaroth> erm, doesn't the 'kitchen' checkbox imply use of kitchen? 16:34 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:34 < roksprok> did i just miss it? 16:35 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:35 < yashgaroth> could be, or they may remove options if nothing in the area has said amenity 16:36 < roksprok> it looks like they do something like that because some of them have different numbers of amenities 16:37 < roksprok> well thanks for prompting me to take a closer look 16:40 < kanzure> "please go to my facebook page and wish me a happy 38th must cure aging day" 16:40 < yashgaroth> haha 16:41 < roksprok> yashgaroth: are many labs using openPCR? 16:41 < kanzure> no 16:41 < yashgaroth> approximately none of them 16:41 < brownies> roksprok: my biggest piece of advice is to start seriously looking for a place ASAP 16:41 < kanzure> roksprok: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/930368578/openpcr-open-source-biotech-on-your-desktop 16:41 < brownies> roksprok: depending on how long you want to stay here... lock down some temporary housing on airbnb as fast as you can... then when you get here, start looking at every place that matches your criteria, and show up with a bag of cash and your credit report in hand if you want any hope of getting the place 16:42 < brownies> i'm just kidding... bring a checkbook, not a bag of cash. 16:42 < kanzure> you can bring a bag of cash to me for, you know, safe keeping 16:42 < roksprok> ewww credit report 16:42 < brownies> prices are increasing on pretty much a daily basis 16:42 < kanzure> roksprok: the renting market is not hurting for your business 16:42 < kanzure> summer prices increase significantly in SF 16:42 < brownies> because all these overpaid programmers show up and say "oh, $3000/mo for a 1BR? no problem!" 16:43 < roksprok> i was hoping berekely would be a bit less housing-boomish 16:43 < brownies> berkeley is better, yes, but still very high demand. 16:43 < roksprok> but i guess there are plenty of startups there 16:44 < brownies> like i said, the best thing you can do is start looking... like, right now. 16:44 < brownies> i've gone to open-houses with a crowd of people who all show up at the same time 16:44 < yashgaroth> is oakland still cheap or did it get gentrified? 16:44 < brownies> oakland is in the process of getting gentrified; it'll probably take a couple more years 16:46 < brownies> i think it's slightly cheaper but that comes with all the usual caveats 16:47 < kanzure> like getting shanked. 16:47 < kanzure> or pooped on. 16:47 < roksprok> ugh the poop better be an urban legend 16:47 < kanzure> ask fenn, he's a professor of san francisco poop 16:48 < roksprok> is that why he's never on? taking field samples? 16:48 < kanzure> it's the only explanation i can think of 16:49 < brownies> when i first moved to SF and was staying with my friend, i'd walk to the neighborhood coffeeshop everyday to work 16:49 < brownies> one day i decided to go a bit earlier, and there was a hobo pooping on the side of the street, right by a tree on the way 16:49 < brownies> we made eye contact 16:49 < brownies> it was super-awkward. 16:49 < kanzure> you should have brought out toilet paper from the coffeeshop's restroom 16:50 < brownies> there are just crowds of homeless people in SF 16:50 < brownies> you learn to ignore them 16:50 < roksprok> ugh i always feel awkward around them 16:50 < brownies> you'll get over it after a few weeks/months 16:50 < brownies> or you can live in a nicer area of town where they don't exist 16:51 < brownies> what brings you out here? 16:51 < roksprok> well i may be doing an unpaid internship 16:51 < kanzure> no! 16:51 < kanzure> don't do it 16:51 < kanzure> i'll pay you to do things. jeeze. 16:52 < roksprok> well i havn't heard back from the places that would pay me 16:52 < roksprok> apparently i should have looked up javascript before my python interview 16:53 < kanzure> how well versed in python are you, again? 16:53 < brownies> why in the hell would you do an unpaid internship? 16:53 < roksprok> not very 16:53 < brownies> alternately, screw those guys, and come work for me for free 16:53 < roksprok> nobody will give me a paid one 16:53 < roksprok> is the main reason 16:53 < kanzure> brownies: this is the point where you give him the "changing the world through education" speech 16:53 < brownies> why not? 16:53 < brownies> kanzure: i do that after the programming interview 16:54 < kanzure> brownies: because he keeps telling everyone that he sucks or something 16:54 < brownies> roksprok: stop telling people that 16:54 < roksprok> brownies: i don't think i could get a developer internship 16:54 < brownies> dude, i could draw a smiley face on a bag of potatoes and get it a paid coding internship 16:54 < kanzure> he just offered you one 16:54 < roksprok> i did stop, but people still won't pay me... 16:54 < brownies> people are hiring like crazy right now. 16:55 < roksprok> should i just email people? 16:55 < kanzure> no 16:55 < roksprok> or craigslist? 16:55 < kanzure> no 16:55 < brownies> good god. no. 16:55 < brownies> show me your resume 16:56 < bkero> lol jobs 16:56 < bkero> get me a job paying 140k/year to work from home 16:56 < roksprok> how do you send files over irc? or email? or is there a dropbox like thing? 16:56 < kanzure> bkero: it's not as hard as you think 16:56 * kanzure shifty eyes 16:56 < brownies> roksprok: just put it on dropbox and paste a link here. 16:57 < bkero> kanzure: I know. Let me do it for a nonprofit. 16:57 < roksprok> kk 16:57 < kanzure> bkero: nonprofits don't have money, and usually their dev teams suck, except for mozilla's or possibly the oss world 16:57 < bkero> kanzure: and guess where I already work :P 16:57 < kanzure> yes i know you work at mozilla 16:58 < bkero> I keep turning down google/facebook/twitter/linkedin because I don't want to move to San Jose 16:58 < kanzure> bkero: have they incentivized you to move? 16:59 < brownies> none of those people have offices in san jose o.O 16:59 < bkero> kanzure: I haven't responded to the recruiters 16:59 < kanzure> oh those are just recruiters 16:59 < bkero> brownies: menlo park, mountain view, whatever 16:59 < kanzure> ignore them 16:59 < brownies> there are big differences. 16:59 < bkero> Having livedin Mountain View and the east bay, it's all south bay. 16:59 < brownies> hehe, i got a random recruiter email the other day. made me feel special ;) 16:59 < kanzure> i got one from github -_- 16:59 < kanzure> "Hi, we've noticed a lot of activity on your repo POKECRYSTAL..." 17:00 < bkero> Heh, I got some from github engineers in person. I went to one of their drinkups. 17:00 < brownies> haha 17:01 < bkero> I'm really comfortable globetrotting, or else I'd take one of the ridiculous $ offers. 17:02 < brownies> roksprok: hurry up before i get distracted 17:02 < kanzure> brownies: it's in your inbox 17:03 < roksprok> i am downloading dropbox 17:03 < roksprok> it is taking a while 17:03 < kanzure> ah in the future you might want to try kicksend 17:04 < kanzure> or megaupload 17:04 < brownies> roksprok: kanzure sent it to me. i'm reading. 17:05 < roksprok> o ok thanks kanzure 17:05 < roksprok> i like the looks of kicksend 17:06 < kanzure> brownies: i also sent you the follow-up email i sent roksprok 17:06 < brownies> you have great credentials 17:06 < brownies> and they are presented terribly 17:07 < brownies> do you know LaTeX? 17:07 < roksprok> no...is that the new resume standard? 17:08 < kanzure> latex is how scientific documents are typeset, plus everything else that matters 17:08 < brownies> i wouldn't say "standard" but it would be nice 17:08 < brownies> it's fine though. MS Word is fine. 17:08 < brownies> lose the cheesy art 17:08 < kanzure> you should send a pdf 17:08 < brownies> you say "Objectives" and then write 1 Objective 17:08 < kanzure> pdf seems less microsofty than sending a .doc around, or .docx 17:09 < brownies> probably not the greatest start re: attention to detail 17:09 < ParahSailin> someone said my name in here in the ;last 24 hours and i dont feel like grepping logs 17:09 -!- delinquentme_ [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:09 < brownies> and, while we're at it, lose the Objective section entirely. 17:09 < brownies> move Education up top 17:09 < kanzure> ParahSailin: brownies and i were wondering about getting a lab equipment catalog with, you know, pricing information 17:09 < brownies> make it 3 times longer than it is 17:09 < brownies> add your GPA 17:09 < brownies> and graduation date, and a line naming 3-5 relevant courses you've taken 17:10 < kanzure> use the same font for everything 17:10 < brownies> i guarantee no one cares about the *address* of your employer 17:10 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:10 < brownies> good god, why does the date have a bullet point next to it? 17:10 < kanzure> haha maybe they will confuse it with the hospital at 2778 burnet avenue, not 2777 burnet avenue. 17:10 < roksprok> so use the space for elaborating on what i did? 17:10 < brownies> and why are your 3 positions listed in random order instead of chronological? 17:11 < roksprok> well it is order of hours spent there 17:11 < brownies> your faint gray font makes me (the hypothetical hiring manager) angry and impatient 17:11 < kanzure> number of hours spent should not matter at all 17:11 < brownies> why are there random dashes and indentation everywhere 17:11 < roksprok> and only the top one is a real position 17:11 < kanzure> don't tell them the others weren't "real" 17:11 < kanzure> they were real to you. 17:12 < brownies> i am informed that you created a heart valve, yet your resume does not communicate anything like that 17:12 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:12 < kanzure> designed/materials 17:12 < brownies> did you publish any papers? are you a US Citizen? both those things should be on there, if true 17:12 < kanzure> us citizenship should be listed, for sure 17:12 < kanzure> don't put "I haven't written any papers" -_- 17:12 < brownies> ^ 17:12 < roksprok> well it wasn't actually creating one, it was just doing some stress analysis 17:12 < kanzure> that counts. 17:13 < kanzure> even though you were configuring CFD software, it counts 17:13 < brownies> bleh. it's all just poorly explained. 17:13 -!- roksprok [~roksprok@12.144.116.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:14 < brownies> oh wow, we constructive-criticism'd him offline. now i feel bad. 17:14 < kanzure> nah he just sucks at internetting i think 17:14 -!- roksprok [~roksprok@12.144.116.122] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:14 -!- roksprok is now known as roksprok_ 17:14 < brownies> let me download the actual DOC and spend a few minutes trying to work some magic 17:15 < roksprok_> i very much appreciate that 17:15 < kanzure> oh don't fight ms word 17:17 < kanzure> roksprok_: also link to your github account 17:17 < kanzure> people eat that up 17:17 < roksprok_> i've been including that in the cover letter 17:18 < kanzure> people delete the cover letter 17:19 < roksprok_> i thought the cover letter was the most important part? 17:19 < ParahSailin> do do a cover letter 17:20 < kanzure> yes they will read it, but they might save the pdf.. they will probably not download your email text and paste it into the same doc tho 17:20 < roksprok_> well i was thinking if they deleted the email i already lost 17:21 < roksprok_> er...didn't respond to the email 17:21 < kanzure> no, even if they save your resume into their pile, they will probably archive/delete your email 17:23 < roksprok_> well i think if you have a pile to choose from things will not go well for me 17:23 < kanzure> uh dude your resume doesn't list your university 17:24 -!- delinquentme [~bob@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24 < roksprok_> i suppose that will be deleted with the cover letter? 17:37 -!- pasky [pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37 -!- ziyadb [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zkdqjvhdnydoaigt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37 < kanzure> hrm? no i was saying that if they read your email, they will save your attachment 17:37 < kanzure> worst case scenario, attach your cover letter to the end of your resume (not the begining) 17:37 < kanzure> *beginning 17:37 -!- pasky_ [pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:37 < brownies> the resume must stand alone 17:37 < brownies> and it should be customized for every job you apply to 17:38 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: strages_work 17:39 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: augur, Mikoangelo, strages_shop, JayDugger, nuba, docl, AlonzoTG, Mokbortolan_1, calango, devrandom, (+15 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 17:39 < kanzure> everyone is leaving me :( 17:41 * brownies is rapidly losing interesting in fighting with MS Word 17:42 -!- Netsplit over, joins: strages_work 17:43 < kanzure> brownies: told you not to man 17:44 -!- roksprok_ [~roksprok@12.144.116.122] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- calango [~dnm@pdpc/supporter/active/calango] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-76-105-164-184.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- Mokbortolan_1 [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-200-47.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-67-96-196.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-79-122.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- splicer [~ubuntu@c83-255-190-140.bredband.comhem.se] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- nuba [~nuba@pauleira.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- Mikoangelo [~Mikael@78.157.118.97] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- _sol_ [Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- docl [~luke@unaffiliated/docl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- upgrayeddd [u2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vsltdrpgnkhxolgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- skimocha [~userid@c-24-61-126-211.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- Charlie_ [~quassel@64.31.59.70] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@dsl092-168-049.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- fenn [~fenn@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- epitron [~epitron@unaffiliated/epitron] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 -!- CIA-132 [~CIA@cia.atheme.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:44 < kanzure> welcome back. 17:44 < kanzure> did we lose anyone? 17:44 < roksprok_> yashgaroth: would biotech companies be worth persuing? or is there enough labor there that you need actual skills 17:45 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: strages_work 17:45 < kanzure> it's just labor. i haven't seen a non-sucky biotech job yet, unless you're shooting for management. 17:45 < kanzure> or to own your own biotech company. 17:45 < kanzure> yashgaroth: how much would you estimate your coworkers were making? 17:47 < roksprok_> kanzure: owning my own biotech company is more the 5 year plan ;-) 17:47 * roksprok_ is going to lose power in a bit and will bbl 17:48 < roksprok_> thank you for your help and advice brownies and kanzure 17:50 < kanzure> yep no problem 17:51 -!- Netsplit over, joins: strages_work 17:52 -!- ziyadb [u4806@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sftnizgshzdorkod] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:55 -!- strages_work [~c6740838@dev.throwthemind.com] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Session timeout)] 17:56 -!- roksprok_ [~roksprok@12.144.116.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:57 < yashgaroth> depends which coworkers 17:57 < yashgaroth> and worth pursuing for whom 18:03 < brownies> oh, naturally 18:03 < brownies> he fucking logged off before i could give him his fixed resume. 18:03 < brownies> great. 18:03 < kanzure> brownies: email it to him 18:03 < kanzure> he listed his number, so you could call him and yell at him 18:03 < brownies> i could, but i've already spent far too much time on this. 18:12 < kanzure> my hobby: finding websites that get dmca complaints 18:12 < kanzure> http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=367508 18:32 -!- skorket [~skorket@cpe-24-58-232-122.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:38 -!- calango [~dnm@pdpc/supporter/active/calango] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:40 < kanzure> hi skorket 18:40 < skorket> hey kanzure 18:54 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:57 -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:05 -!- Jora [~Jora@24-196-83-11.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:05 -!- Jora [~Jora@24-196-83-11.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:05 -!- Jora [~Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:06 < joshcryer> http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/21/3033634/leap-3d-motion-control-system-video 19:08 -!- mensch [~mensch@pool-71-127-8-182.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:33 -!- devrandom [~devrandom@gateway/tor-sasl/niftyzero1] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:35 -!- strages_shop [~strages@256.makerslocal.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:45 -!- Steel2 [43f624a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.246.36.165] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:55 -!- Jora [~Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:55 -!- Jora [~Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:04 -!- mensch [~mensch@pool-71-127-8-182.spfdma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:31 < jrayhawk> Checking ...error: /usr/share/libquvi-scripts/lua/website/youtube.lua:112: This video has been removed by the user. (code=100) 20:31 < kanzure> jrayhawk: you disappoint me for actually trying to follow youtube links. 20:32 < jrayhawk> it sounded interesting :( 20:33 -!- Jora [~Jora@unaffiliated/jora] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:38 < jrayhawk> so... how does it make pointclouds of both sides of hands 20:48 < brownies> yashgaroth: oh, thanks for all the info, btw :) 20:48 < yashgaroth> np 20:55 < kanzure> "And perhaps he was just taking tips from RMS, who squatted his MIT office for years after officially quitting to work on GNU." 20:55 < kanzure> hrm 21:10 < jrayhawk> http://web.archive.org/web/20060212034956/http://www.geocities.com/stallmanus/ (nsfw) 21:11 < jrayhawk> i have since had a couple of these confirmed by other sources. 21:11 < kanzure> " chose to move to Texas, and the change in rent rates and lack of state income tax resulted in an immediate %25 pay raise. RMS doesn't have that option because we have the death penalty for people like him down here." 21:11 < kanzure> confirmed: we have the death penalty 21:13 < kanzure> huh. didn't know that population growth thing about him. that's sccary. 21:13 < kanzure> *scary 21:18 < jrayhawk> i have never tried to tell a malthusian about posthuman singularity scenarios; do they listen? 21:19 < kanzure> jrayhawk: if anything the paperclip scenarios, grey goo and computronium would only validate their fears :p 21:20 -!- mako [~mako@118-93-5-109.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:20 < Steel2> I am sort of curious what the breakdown of this channel is in terms of what people think will happen :) 21:20 < kanzure> the malthusian won't listen 21:20 < kanzure> i don't think there'll be much of a difference opinion on that point around here. 21:21 < jrayhawk> it seems like they'd want their fears validated, and there'd be a certain amount of relief in the knowledge that attempting to create a sustainable humanity is completely optional 21:21 < Steel2> nah, I meant degree/type of singularity, takeoff speed, what people think it would look at etc. 21:21 < kanzure> Steel2: why would that be important 21:21 < Steel2> people get pissed at me when I say I want positive sum economies 21:21 < kanzure> you can't just take a bunch of opinions and say that's the future 21:21 < kanzure> Steel2: you should use http://theuncertainfuture.com/ 21:21 < Steel2> kanzure: I didn't say it was. I said I was curious 21:21 < Steel2> about the breakdown 21:21 < Steel2> in this channel 21:21 < kanzure> source code is here: http://github.com/kanzure/uncertainfuture 21:22 < jrayhawk> I think this channel is half SL3 and half SL4, in lesswrong terms 21:22 < Steel2> my actual predictions when I make them generally go to techcast, but I don't know enough about the field to make a statement on AI 21:23 < kanzure> jrayhawk: that's not lesswrong terms! 21:23 < Steel2> jrayhawk: not what people are comfortable with--what they think will actually happen 21:23 < Steel2> I'm comfortable with SL4, but I don't know precisely what it will look like 21:23 < kanzure> Steel2: i don't think your method of predicting the future is useful, and you suck 21:24 < Steel2> you don't know my method of predicting the future, I'm not comfortable sharing until I quantify it better, and we all suck :) 21:24 < kanzure> i see no other practical reason you would want to see their opinions 21:24 < jrayhawk> he's got you there 21:24 < Steel2> kanzure: Because I enjoy listening to people's opinions 21:24 < Steel2> lol 21:24 < Steel2> or seeing the breakdown 21:24 < kanzure> just because people have them? 21:24 < Steel2> seeing how their brains tick 21:24 < Steel2> yes 21:24 < Steel2> because they are interesting 21:24 < Steel2> because people are interesting 21:25 < kanzure> no they're not 21:25 < Steel2> subjective 21:25 < kanzure> /kick Steel2 21:25 < kanzure> gah it's not working 21:25 < kanzure> how do i get him out 21:25 < kanzure> oh goodddddd 21:25 < kanzure> *goddddd 21:25 < Steel2> really? this is what gets you to kick me? the fact I find people's views and opinions fascinating? 21:25 < Steel2> lol 21:26 < kanzure> note that i haven't actually kicked you 21:26 < Steel2> fair point :) 21:26 < jrayhawk> hey guys lets talk about philosophy 21:26 < kanzure> adfadklfldfjaldkfjkadkla 21:26 < jrayhawk> hey man that's not very intelligent. i think you should be more intelligent, kanzure. 21:26 < kanzure> more what now? 21:27 < kanzure> so let's imagine for a moment that people respond to Steel2, someone brings up ai, someone brings up biotech, someone brings up stock prices 21:27 < kanzure> i'd have to explain to each of them why they are probably wrong 21:28 < kanzure> when you ask for general opinions about the singularity, you will get philosophical answers 21:29 < kanzure> you could just as easily randomly generate a set of opinions about the singularity 21:29 < kanzure> Steel2: would that make you happy 21:29 < Steel2> I'm more curious precisely what order people think techs will come in, why, when, how the general public will react, etc. 21:30 < kanzure> ok, i can randomly generate that data for you 21:30 < kanzure> i don't see the point? 21:30 < Steel2> Because I find people and their views interesting and you don't. 21:31 < kanzure> ok, so if i make pretend that it's actually people with that data, you would be entertained? 21:31 < Steel2> I'd probably want to talk to some of them :P 21:31 < Steel2> this is a dead end discussion. 21:32 < kanzure> that's how i felt about ray's book sorta 21:34 < kanzure> Steel2: you sound like the kinda person who would get a hardon about http://canonizer.com/ 21:34 < Steel2> Wow, talk about verbal diarrhea 21:34 < kanzure> scroll down 21:35 < kanzure> jrayhawk: you might be interested in noting that that site was built by the lds church 21:37 < jrayhawk> not sure what to think about that 21:37 < kanzure> haha 21:38 < kanzure> actually, there was a very thorough criticism of canonizer.com by someone who used to write thorough criticisms of eliezer's epistemology 21:39 * kanzure digs through email 21:40 < jrayhawk> i mean, it's obvious constructing a model of reality by consensus is untenable, but it's not clear that they're trying to do that, here. 21:41 < Steel2> I think the thing that offends me most about EY is the MWI 21:41 < Steel2> like, a lot of stuff irritates me 21:41 < Steel2> but the MWI just sets me off 21:42 < kanzure> "But in an *interesting world* of combinatorial explosion of indirect consequences, and worse yet, critically underspecified inputs to any such supposed moral calculations, no system of reasoning can get very far betting on longer-term *specific* consequences." 21:42 < kanzure> "Rather the moral agent must necessarily fall back on heuristics, fundamentally hard-to-gain wisdom based on increasingly effective interaction with relevant aspects of the environment of interaction, promoting **in principle** a model of evolving values increasingly coherent over increasing context, with effect over increasing scope of consequences." 21:42 < kanzure> (note: this is why philosophy gets banned) 21:43 * kanzure is still digging 21:44 < Steel2> man, that's not that bad 21:44 < Steel2> at least it's not heidegger 21:44 * Steel2 dodges. 21:44 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:45 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:46 < kanzure> accuracy/precision.. http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-October/046099.html no.. that's not it.. 21:50 < kanzure> google is really bad at searching 5+ year old email 21:54 < kanzure> jrayhawk: aha http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2006-December/031465.html 21:54 < kanzure> "However, it's not clear to me whether your vision is to rank predominately according to popularity/supporting votes, or whether you see the need to rank somehow according to (still subjective) measure(s) of relative merit?" 21:54 < kanzure> hrm, no 21:55 < jrayhawk> it seems useful as memetic epidemiology 21:56 < docl> The interesting thing in this channel is kanzure telling people why they're wrong. :) 21:56 < jrayhawk> tracking changes over time, finding correlations, making policy decisions based on impact, playing with regression analysis, etc. 21:56 < kanzure> > Absolutely. As one example, someone's net worth or 21:56 < kanzure> > performance scores in such prediction markets could be yet 21:56 < kanzure> > another data source that canonizers could use to judge the 21:56 < kanzure> > value or reputation of a person's vote. The two systems 21:56 < kanzure> > definitely fit well together and I definitely figure there is 21:56 < kanzure> > great collaboration possibilities with these two types of efforts. 21:56 < kanzure> but he was also using it as a sort of mimetic relativism iirc 21:56 < kanzure> heck the name is canonizer :P 21:57 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-19-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:57 < kanzure> hi klafka what's up 21:57 < klafka> hey 21:58 < klafka> working on job apps 21:58 < klafka> i made a webapp that tells you whether you have cancer or not 21:58 < jrayhawk> i wanna try 21:58 < klafka> yeah 1 sec gotta finish it up and deploy it 21:59 < kanzure> jrayhawk: one of the emails that popped up is "singularity summit on foxnews" how fitting.. 22:00 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i'd like to search my email backup for files containing both the words 'allbright' and 'canonizer', how do i do this with grep without line grepping? 22:00 < jrayhawk> notmuch 22:00 < kanzure> i haven't indexed it yet 22:02 < jrayhawk> the less good answer is grep -rl allbright | xargs grep -l canonizer 22:03 < jrayhawk> err, grep -rl allbright mail.google/ | xargs grep -l canonizer 22:03 < jrayhawk> or whatever your mail store is called 22:03 < jrayhawk> but you should really get friendly with notmuch if you have the disk space for it 22:04 < kanzure> good ol trusty xargs 22:05 < kanzure> gah even ls is failing in this folder 22:06 < kanzure> it's only 8409 files 22:06 < jrayhawk> if you turn dircolors off, your life will get a lot better. 22:06 < jrayhawk> Then it's only a readdir() instead of a readdir and 8409 stat()s 22:08 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:14 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ok i'm giving up until grep finishes. 22:18 < klafka> hey has anyone pushed to heroku a python app with a locally hosted dependency ? 22:21 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:21 < kanzure> klafka: yes 22:22 < kanzure> klafka: most people just host it on github or something 22:22 < kanzure> if you need it to be private, then you should setup a remote private repo 22:22 < kanzure> heroku has random public keys for each instance slug compilation, so you can't use key authentiation 22:23 < kanzure> http://stackoverflow.com/a/10111002/687783 22:23 < kanzure> please upvote my answer :p 22:23 < klafka> ah i can just throw it up on github ? 22:23 < kanzure> absolutely 22:23 < kanzure> gem 'my_gem', :git => 'https://my_username:my_password@github.com/my_github_account/my_repo.git', :ref => 'revision_no' 22:23 < kanzure> (or you can do a public git repo) 22:23 < kanzure> oh, right, python.. uhh 22:23 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure your dependencies work similarly with python 22:24 < jrayhawk> is 'kanzure' a funny spelling for 'cancer' 22:24 < kanzure> "Anything that works with a standard pip requirements file will work as expected on Heroku." 22:24 < kanzure> "Thanks to pip’s Git support, you can install a Python package that is hosted on a remote Git repository." 22:24 < kanzure> "git+git://github.com/kennethreitz/requests.git" 22:24 < kanzure> oh neat, that's kennethreitz. he is my hero because of http://python-requests.org/ .. maybe heroku hired him. 22:24 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-67-96-196.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:24 < kanzure> jrayhawk: no, it's much more lame than that 22:25 < jrayhawk> what the hell is a git+git url 22:25 < jrayhawk> did they mean git+ssh, which is merely obsolete rather than nonsensical? 22:26 < kanzure> jrayhawk: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=13697&b=2 22:26 < kanzure> with the risk of further embarrassing my 13 year-old self: 22:26 < kanzure> http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=7659&b=2 22:27 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:29 < kanzure> oh god what? internet archive has my old "i'm going to make an mmorpg" blog 22:29 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20040607215658/http://devskill.sytes.net/grak/ 22:31 < kanzure> oh i heart that i called my site "rightfromwrong", how precognizant 22:31 < jrayhawk> haha 22:31 < jrayhawk> i knew a guy who said "i'm going to make an mmorpg" and then he actually did it 22:31 < jrayhawk> surprisingly, it is still going 22:32 < jrayhawk> http://secrets-of-asherah.com/ 22:32 < kanzure> i got pretty far 22:32 < kanzure> had a production crew o_o 22:32 < kanzure> art, music, i did all the coding. 22:33 * kanzure uploads music 22:34 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/grak_theme.mp3 22:38 < mako> Why an mmorpg, and was the design directive to addict and please, or to enrich? 22:39 < kanzure> well i was 13 so the "why" is "i didn't know any better" 22:39 < mako> [and that music sounds like adventure.] 22:39 < kanzure> yes it was an adventure mmo.. thing 22:39 < Steel2> I'm still looking forward to Guild Wars 2 22:41 < kanzure> reading the source code is a terrible nightmare 22:41 < kanzure> 997 const char* returnCImageFNWithThisGlobalID(int id) { 22:42 < kanzure> hrm it looks like i was using opengl and sdl 22:42 < kanzure> .. and lua. 22:42 < kanzure> 269 dest2.x = (((this->x*global->ents->returnCImage(this->images[1])->image->w)/global->ents->returnCImage(this->images[1])->image->w))-CamX; 22:42 < kanzure> who the hell writes code like that 22:43 < mako> It's a long road. 22:44 < klafka> wtf 22:44 < kanzure> clearly i was a much better programmer when i was 13 ;) 22:54 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:54 < mako> So what's wrong with that is that it's got repeated sections, and that could have been made much clearer with a variable. Maybe 13yo you thought that would invoke an overhead? 22:55 < kanzure> oh there are other terrible things about my design 22:55 < kanzure> like, using lua 22:55 < kanzure> and i had this CEntity class that represented everything 22:55 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-25.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:55 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-25.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] 22:55 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:56 < mako> Heh, my first experiments in C# did that too. 22:57 < mako> Don't take having started with C# as being representative of my inclinations... 23:00 < mako> Wait, isn't using lua advisable? 23:01 < kanzure> not really 23:01 < kanzure> why not just use python or ruby 23:05 < mako> Lua's faster, hence using it for games. 23:05 < mako> Still I kind of agree. 23:05 < lichen> i couldnt code worth shit at 13 23:05 < lichen> i think i was only about on the 'making maps for warcraft' level 23:06 < lichen> in other news, im playing around with Qt right now 23:06 < lichen> neat stuff 23:06 < kanzure> lichen: would you be willing to become the resident nanoengineer qt guru :P 23:06 < kanzure> http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer 23:06 < kanzure> it uses qt 4.4 and needs to be upgraded to qt 4.8 23:06 < kanzure> annnd i haven't done this yet =( 23:06 < lichen> um 23:06 < kanzure> theoreticaly the api is the same for 4.4 and 4.8 23:06 < lichen> so just digging through and changing calls? 23:07 < kanzure> in theory yes.. but it's actually a worse state than that 23:07 < lichen> heh 23:07 < lichen> it always is 23:07 < kanzure> there are other non-qt-related things that are borked 23:07 < lichen> ill bookmark it and put it on my todo 23:07 < lichen> somewhat late right now 23:08 < lichen> if its not a ridiculous amount of work i might do it 23:09 < kanzure> it's a ridiculous amount of work :) 23:09 < lichen> damn this program looks intense 23:09 < kanzure> yes sir 23:10 < lichen> you do some interesting things with your spare time :p 23:10 < kanzure> most of them involve pasting text into this irc channel 23:10 < lichen> ive noticed 23:10 < lichen> hah 23:10 < lichen> i mostly just idle in irc 23:10 < lichen> i find that if i spend too much time in irc i dont get anything done 23:11 < kanzure> other recent thing is https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/tree/master/extras/#readme https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/commits 23:11 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:12 < lichen> lol 23:13 < lichen> whyyy 23:13 < kanzure> well, you learned tonight that when i was 13 i built an mmo, but when i was 11 and 12 i was a pokemon master and released gameshark codes obsessively 23:13 < kanzure> anyway, it's nice to finally have the source code to pokemon 23:13 < lichen> i came into that convo at the end 23:13 < lichen> yeah 23:14 < lichen> your childhood outnerds mine pretty hard 23:14 < kanzure> "i played pokemon" lots of people did :p 23:14 < lichen> yeah, i played pokemon 23:14 < lichen> from like 23:14 < lichen> ages 5-10 23:15 < lichen> or whatever 23:15 < kanzure> five? hrm.. 23:15 < lichen> its a pretty good rpg 23:15 < kanzure> that would make you.. hrm. younger than me. 23:15 < lichen> dude, i was born in 1990 23:15 < kanzure> me too 23:15 < lichen> oh then idk 23:15 < kanzure> how'd you play it when you were 5? 23:15 < kanzure> okay then 23:15 < lichen> bad memory? 23:15 < kanzure> but yeah, source code. 23:16 < kanzure> https://raw.github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/master/main.asm 23:16 < lichen> all in asm 23:16 < lichen> like a boss 23:16 < lichen> wait you commented this all out too? 23:16 < kanzure> yes 23:16 < kanzure> it also compiles 23:16 < lichen> rofl 23:17 < lichen> i could not be motivated to do that 23:17 < kanzure> well i was very disappointed to learn that pressing A when you threw a pokeball did not increase your chances of success 23:17 < lichen> nothing does, does it? 23:18 < kanzure> status effects help 23:18 < lichen> ah 23:18 < lichen> what about speed? 23:19 < kanzure> except in crystal where they had a bug in their code that made burn/freeze not help you 23:19 < lichen> freeze was always overpowered though 23:19 < lichen> they never unfreeze unless you use fire on them 23:19 < Steel2> Hrm. 23:20 -!- bugcatcher [~bugcatche@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:20 < kanzure> bugcatcher: test 23:20 < bugcatcher> kanzure, Hyuck-hyuck-hyuck! You're challenging me to a battle? Hah! You're nuts, but you have guts! I like that! If you can beat me, I'll tell you a password to the boss's room! 23:20 < lichen> ... 23:20 < kanzure> <--- king of the nerds 23:20 < lichen> dont tell me you wrote a bot from scratch just for that 23:21 < kanzure> yep 23:21 < lichen> hah 23:21 < kanzure> try him out 23:21 < lichen> bugcatcher: A 23:21 < bugcatcher> lichen, I don't care if you're lost. You show up here, you're nothing but a victim! 23:22 < lichen> is it just the bugcatcher lines 23:22 < bugcatcher> lichen, Who are you? 23:22 < lichen> or all trainers 23:22 < kanzure> that's from UndergroundPathSwitchRoomEntrances 23:22 < kanzure> lichen: all trainers 23:24 < lichen> im now tempted to make a bot with random quotes from deus ex characters 23:24 < lichen> because that game has some ridiculous quotes 23:24 < kanzure> like what 23:25 < lichen> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfowSe522yI&feature=related 23:25 < lichen> dont tell me you havent played deus ex 23:26 < kanzure> i have not 23:26 < kanzure> i am an awful person 23:26 < lichen> :| 23:26 < lichen> youre in ##hplusroadmap 23:26 < lichen> and a video game nerd 23:26 < lichen> and havent played deus ex somehow 23:26 < yashgaroth> wait what 23:26 < kanzure> hey i protected myself by saying upfront that i'm awful 23:26 < lichen> hahaha 23:26 < kanzure> i'm really really awful 23:26 < kanzure> how about that? 23:27 < lichen> seven awfuls 23:28 < yashgaroth> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi7JRJrod4 :D brb 23:29 < kanzure> i'm busy watching tng edits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXvCSG4Ff60 23:30 < lichen> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whtNHRYJnrU 23:30 < lichen> possibly the best deus ex hr video 23:32 < brownies> kanzure: what'd you use to make the bot? 23:33 < kanzure> brownies: twisted 23:33 < brownies> kanzure: O.O why 23:33 < lichen> oh i thought you coded that from scratch 23:33 < lichen> nerd points subtracted 23:33 < kanzure> twisted.words.protocols import irc 23:34 < kanzure> bugcatcher: 23:34 < bugcatcher> kanzure, Such darling #MON. Let's show our #MON together at the same time. 23:34 < kanzure> bugcatcher: 23:34 < bugcatcher> kanzure, My chance of losing? Not even one percent! 23:34 < kanzure> bug 23:34 < kanzure> bugcatcher: 23:34 < bugcatcher> kanzure, You've got dazzling style! 23:34 < lichen> i think 23:34 -!- bugcatcher [~bugcatche@131.252.130.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34 < lichen> you have a bug there 23:34 < kanzure> hrm? 23:34 < lichen> #MON 23:34 < kanzure> #MON is how it was represented in the game 23:34 < kanzure> it was a single symbol 23:35 < lichen> i know but i mean you should replace it with something context sensitive 23:35 < lichen> also, am i the only one reading that as innuendo? 23:35 < lichen> [23:34:18] kanzure, Such darling #MON. Let's show our #MON together at the same time. 23:35 < kanzure> pokemon is a weird, weird thing when you reexamine it 23:35 < lichen> its dogfighting for kids 23:35 < lichen> lets send a bunch of 10 year olds out into the wild with no supervision 23:35 < lichen> to catch wild animals 23:35 < kanzure> or to catch bugs 23:35 < lichen> and have them fight each other in unstructured tournaments 23:35 < lichen> GREAT IDEA 23:36 < kanzure> i think bug hunting is a good hobby for a kid to have :p 23:36 < lichen> lol 23:36 < lichen> it isnt if the bug is as big as your torso 23:39 < lichen> uhg 23:39 < lichen> my most hated part of programming 23:40 < lichen> dealing with random libraries and depedencies and compatibilities 23:40 < kanzure> isn't that the only thing that programming is? 23:40 < lichen> hah 23:42 < mako> Real world programming, yes. 23:42 < mako> World-changing and stimulating programming, no. 23:42 < lichen> indeed 23:42 < lichen> all im trying to do right now i get qt and qwt to work together 23:43 < lichen> which meant downloading the source of both and recompiling it all because they couldnt seem to compile them both with the same compiler 23:43 < lichen> busy work :\ 23:48 < kanzure> that sounds the complete opposite of thrilling. 23:49 < kanzure> "Hi, Eliezer Yudkowsky New things are always happening here at Twitter HQ. We're growing at a rapid pace, and our commitment to simplicity, transparency, and reaching every person on the planet continues." 23:49 < kanzure> why am i getting this 23:49 < Steel2> I want to learn Modelica and System Modeler 23:49 < mako> Hahah 23:52 < mako> Did you impersonate Eliezer at some point for kicks or something? 23:52 < kanzure> Steel2: perhaps try jmodelica 23:52 < kanzure> mako: this is possibly me? http://twitter.com/FakeEliezer 23:52 < Steel2> System modeler is $3500 :( 23:52 < Steel2> (I have no practical reason to learn either of these) 23:52 < kanzure> no really.. try jmodelica 23:52 < Steel2> I might after I settle down 23:52 < Steel2> I really want to know what proprietary software BAH uses for their internal wargames 23:53 -!- SDr [SDr@unaffiliated/sdr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:55 < lichen> augh 23:55 < lichen> now i need to download perl 23:55 < lichen> because someohw that is not on my computer 23:55 < lichen> so i cant compile qt 23:55 < Steel2> I wonder what I'm going to have to learn for work... 23:55 < kanzure> lichen: sudo apt-get install qmake 23:55 < Steel2> probably just enough C++ and more matlab to duct tape ABAQUS together 23:56 < lichen> yeaaaah, i'm on windows 23:56 < kanzure> well there's your problem 23:56 < lichen> yeah 23:56 < kanzure> Steel2: i seriously doubt anyone outside of academia uses matlab 23:56 < lichen> the only reason im still on windows is gaming 23:56 < kanzure> bzzt wrong 23:56 < kanzure> wow works perfectly on liux 23:56 < kanzure> *linux 23:56 < lichen> and that i cant be bothered to switch boots 23:56 < kanzure> and lots of steam-crap 23:56 < Steel2> kanzure: Nope, I think work does iirc 23:56 < lichen> its hit and miss 23:56 < lichen> and i dont play wow 23:56 < Steel2> I'll know in 2 weeks 23:57 < Steel2> (and then won't be able to talk about it :V) 23:57 < lichen> if i have lots of free time sometime maybe ill try switching to linux again 23:57 < lichen> its just a mountain of effort that id usually not do 23:57 < kanzure> it pays off 23:58 < Steel2> bleargh, dan finfer wants me to fly out to california a bunch 23:58 < lichen> that means i now need to research distros 23:58 < lichen> ive got an ubuntu partition but its... eh 23:58 < lichen> id rather just wipe that and start fresh --- Log closed Fri May 25 00:00:20 2012