--- Log opened Wed May 30 00:00:25 2012
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02:13 < Utopiah> starting tomorrow http://www.seasteading.org/community/events/conference2012/
02:19 < ThomasEgi> nice, except that "save" and "economical" won't mix. because building a seastead that survives freakwaves just aint too cheap^
02:20 < ThomasEgi> are you going to attend?
02:21 < Utopiah> nop, I think it's cool as an ideal but in practice, I dont believe one of the spectrum (Sealand, Amsterdam, Switzerland, Jersey) vs. Singapour make such a huge difference in term of lifestyle and creative "output"
02:24 < ThomasEgi> hm. well it can make some sense when you are more interested in political and juristical points
02:25 < ThomasEgi> i still prefer the idea of just digging a hole into the ground and live there. saves you tons of issues from offshore.
02:26 < Utopiah> I still think it's interesting, that's why I keep an eye on it, but again, we all complain about how restrictive our institutions are but usually we find simple loopholes that doesn't make it worth moving all the stuff far away in hard to live places
02:30 < ThomasEgi> basically. all you need to do is to find a place where noone cares what you are doing
02:30 < Utopiah> which IMHO is nowhere as long as it becomes intersting enough
02:30 < Utopiah> if this really takes off and "crazy" stuff happens, Im sure governments will react
02:31 < ThomasEgi> of course they will.
02:31 < ThomasEgi> that is why i prefer to have 2000m of granite between me, and the government :D
02:31 < ThomasEgi> which is also cheaper than the estimated 35mio/yeahr for the ship's operating cost
02:32 < ThomasEgi> or living somewhere in a desert or so. or syberia
02:32 < ThomasEgi> or antarctica
02:33 < ThomasEgi> there are many places that are favorable to open sea.
02:35 < ThomasEgi> talking about cool places to live http://www.geekologie.com/2012/05/instant-evil-villain-status-secret-subma.php
03:31  * Utopiah is looking for http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=12573
03:34 < Urchin> being underground is not exactly safe these days
03:35 < ThomasEgi> Urchin, what's unsave about it?
03:36 < Urchin> modern bunker busters
03:36 < ThomasEgi> ... good luck busting 2000m of granite :D
03:36 < Urchin> good luck digging that deep trough granite
03:37 < Urchin> and good luck not getting the ventilation jammed
03:37 < ThomasEgi> :) hehe. luck is not neccessary. i found a way to do so
03:37 < Urchin> or getting trapped inside
03:37 < Urchin> what would you use for power down there?
03:38 < ThomasEgi> different methods.
03:38 < ThomasEgi> at small scale at the beginning, just the excess water.
03:38 < ThomasEgi> later on deep-drills for geothermic stuff
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03:38 < Urchin> sounds interesting
03:41 < ThomasEgi> as minimum requirement i need about 200 to 400 watts to start carving. which could be easily supplied by some water or solar power.
03:41 < ThomasEgi> the equipment is almost portaple.
03:41 < ThomasEgi> makes rather thing cuts tho.
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07:16 < dixiebassline> there is a conspiracy theory about a thing called a 'subterrene' ThomasEgi
07:17 < dixiebassline> its atomicly heated boring tip allows it to melt its way through the earth at a regular pace, fusing the walls solid as it travels
07:19 < ThomasEgi> dixiebassline, i know. it is not only a conspiracy
07:20 < ThomasEgi> it is a device that was actually build by russians.
07:20 < ThomasEgi> but.. reactor belw up :(
07:20 < ThomasEgi> my idea is not quite as radioactive. but comparebly hot. it thermal-cracks the rock open but only one tiny spot at a time. so i can manage with limited power input
07:23 < ThomasEgi> altho. not sure if subterrene is the thing build by russia.
07:24 < ThomasEgi> but the way it works sounds awfully familliar
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07:28 < dixiebassline> instead of building a bunker, it would be quicker to locate one that is existing
07:28 < dixiebassline> theres an abandond cold war unit up the road from me
07:28 < dixiebassline> paid for by taxes.. i figure after zday it belongs to me anyway
07:29 < dixiebassline> albania is littered with bunkers
07:29 < dixiebassline> they dont know what to do with.. some of them are beach front
07:29 < dixiebassline> man... a beachfront concrete bunker on the med
07:29 < dixiebassline> albainia also banned religion a few years back
07:30 < dixiebassline> i think its gotten worse since then thoug
07:38 < ThomasEgi> hm. while bunkers sounds ok, they usualy are build at strategic important points. so in case of a country going to war, they'd raid your home first.
07:38 < ThomasEgi> that makes it a no-go for me
07:39 < dixiebassline> depends on where youre at and what you think the future holds
07:40 < ThomasEgi> hope for the best, prepare for the worst
07:41 < ThomasEgi> beeing paranoid, one can't be careful enough
07:48 < chris_99> what are you talking about?
07:48 < dixiebassline> build up a return on protection chart
07:48 < chris_99> WWIII?
07:49 < kanzure> a fortress of solitude.
07:49 < dixiebassline> its kind of like a debt snowball calc, but you put the most likely doomsday scenerios on it and figure out which ones are the cheapest and easiest to plan for
07:49 < dixiebassline> and go from there
07:49 < dixiebassline> somethings everyone should do, like store food and water enough for a few days
07:50 < dixiebassline> but you dont have to prepare for hurricanes in north dakota
07:50 < dixiebassline> unless you are just board
07:50 < dixiebassline> :P
07:50 < ThomasEgi> well in case of a geothermic or excess water powered cave system. you can even grow plants in there.
07:51 < dixiebassline> it would be quite a disaster to drive everyone underground to grow food
07:51 < chris_99> does anyone know of a site where you can purchase bioluminescent plankton
07:52 < dixiebassline> it might be a nice way to hide your productino from raiders though
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09:36 < kanzure> http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/5491409/Rosetta_Stone_V3_-_Arabic_(L1__L2__L3)_Complete
09:39 < Dr_Max> trying to get a govt job?
09:39 < Dr_Max> you did say we are nsa and cia friendly
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09:47 < kanzure> Dr_Max: haha, well. no.. the fbi is flying a bunch of us out to give some presentations next month
09:47 < kanzure> Dr_Max: and yashgaroth had the brilliant idea of answering an angry phone call in the middle of the workshop, in loud-angry arabi
09:47 < Dr_Max> very nice
09:48 < kanzure> *arabic
09:48 < Dr_Max> even better :P
09:48 < kanzure> another idea i'm considering is using twilio to call all of the agent's phones at once
09:48 < kanzure> *agents'
09:48 < Dr_Max> oh and throw in a jammer
09:48 < Dr_Max> and be like 'the lord givith' and the lord taketh away
09:49 < kanzure> i think i need something more benign though
09:49 < kanzure> like introducing myself in arabic to each agent
09:49 < Dr_Max> yeah
09:49 < kanzure> speak their language and such :P
09:50 < Dr_Max> yeah
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10:06 < kanzure> oh wow i didn't know chminf-l went back to 1991 https://iulist.indiana.edu/sympa/arc/chminf-l
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10:27 < kanzure> nmz787: yo we're all learning arabic for the workshop, you in?
10:28 < nmz787> hah hah
10:28 < nmz787> whats the first word we're learning?
10:29 < kanzure> dunno, any suggestions?
10:29 < nmz787> weapon
10:29 < nmz787> ?/
10:29 < nmz787> protector
10:29 < nmz787> hah hah hah
10:31 < kanzure> ezproxy pricing info: http://web.archive.org/web/20010304090030/http://www.usefulutilities.com/ezproxy/pricing.shtml
10:31 < kanzure> "On the Linux, Solaris and Windows NT platforms, EZproxy costs US $495 per server, plus 7.5% sales tax for institutions in Arizona. There are no shipping or handling charges."
10:32 < kanzure> "EZproxy has been designed from its inception to be Y2K compliant."
10:35 < kanzure> oh neat, it's back..
10:35 < kanzure> http://ezproxy.free-webmaster-resources.org/
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11:37 < _F7_> arabic what what
11:45 < kanzure> hi gl00m
11:45 < gl00m> hello
11:45  * Mokbortolan_ gets gl00m a cheery set of curtains.
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11:55 < strangewarp> Dale Carrico sucks
11:58 < kanzure> he's right though, futurism also sucks
11:58 < kanzure> ray kurzweil invented ocr 40 billion years ago, so what?
11:58 < kanzure> i don't see him in the commit logs in the tesseract repository
11:59 < kanzure> peter diamandis scammed insurance companies into funding the xprize, but that's about all he's known for. so what ?
12:00 < strangewarp> Carrico points at the claims disaster capitalists made about exponential economic growth, and claims it's isomorphic to claims abou technological growth
12:00 < strangewarp> That is silly
12:02 < strangewarp> Also I'm peeved because he's snagged Warren Ellis and Charles Stross, and turned them cranky
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12:17 < _F7_> there was a point where warren ellis wasn't cranky?
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12:18 < strangewarp> There was a point when he was visionary-cranky instead of doom-cranky
12:21 < _F7_> ah
12:22 < _F7_> Doktor sleepless is a good kind of doom cranky, though
12:22 < kanzure> "because who the heck would want to be doktor sleepyhead?"
12:23 < _F7_> paprika?
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13:23 < Mokbortolan_> sweet
13:23 < Mokbortolan_> I found a cheap replacement for the felt pads on my epoc
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13:42 < Mokbortolan_> http://www.directionsforme.org/index.php/directions/product/EYEPL/00011822654395
13:46 < kanzure> man i hate ieet/james hughes.
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14:28 < Mokbortolan_> yep, they work great
14:31 < Mokbortolan_> awesome, I get 50 for $6
14:31 < Mokbortolan_> suck it emotiv!
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14:49 < kanzure> i think nmz787 is graduating today
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15:18 < fenn> semax looks like an easy to make nootropic, it's a 7 segment peptide fragment of acth  which stimulates BDNF, protects against stroke, and has other learning-enhancement effects
15:20 < fenn> "Some people just don´t approve of genetic engineering" what kind of objection is that
15:20 < fenn> on a transhumanist forum
15:20 < strangewarp> Some people just don't think that kind of objection is invalid
15:20 < strangewarp> obviously
15:22 < fenn> i'd expect the half life to be improved if the peptide were circularized
15:22 < fenn> right now they claim it lasts ~20 hours but with a half life of 4-5 minutes
15:25 < fenn> i love that you can completely specify a drug's structure with 7 letters: MEHFPGP
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15:40 < gl00m> trolling
15:40 < gl00m> obv
15:40 < gl00m> nice thing about transhumanisim is civilization is fucked anyway
15:40 < gl00m> so what if we make a few mistakes
15:41 < gl00m> might end up with a place like 'rapture' from bioshick
15:41 < gl00m> but prollt not
15:52 < kanzure> what?
15:52 < kanzure> go away
15:53 < strangewarp> zzzzzz
15:54 < gl00m> i was against h+ before i was for it
15:54 < gl00m> i adopted it as a sort of nihilism
15:55 < strangewarp> do note: the human brain tends to treat fictional examples as though they occurred somewhere for real, when they are in actuality complete fiction, because our minds are wired to think that everything we've seen has actually happened in some manner
15:58 < kanzure> gl00m: what do you mean "for it"
15:59 < fenn> pro-transhumanist, supposedly
15:59 < kanzure> but uh..
15:59 < kanzure> i'm so tired of "pro" and "anti" advocacy crap
16:00 < kanzure> go advocate your advocacy plans somewhere else, even if it's doom-and-fear related
16:00 < fenn> d00m and gl00m
16:01 < kanzure> i was giong to say 'doom and gloom' but then realized it was a trap
16:01 < kanzure> *going
16:04 < gl00m> haha
16:06 < gl00m> i was just thinking of coming up with an advocacy plan. PATH - postanarchist transhumanist movement
16:06 < gl00m> but i didnt even know there were other ppl till yesterday
16:06 < Urchin> I've been transhumanist since I became aware of transhumanism
16:06 < kanzure> gl00m: advocacy is lame. you should just build the technologies and get on with it.
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16:07 < gl00m> trufax
16:07 < kanzure> nmz787: happy fuck-school day
16:07 < gl00m> im into interfaces
16:07 < Urchin> gl00m: anarchism isn't part of the mainstream transhumanism since the '90s
16:07 < kanzure> Urchin: "mainstream" means what
16:07 < kanzure> where are you people making up all these words from
16:07 < gl00m> im from the internet
16:08 < Urchin> I'm just saying anarchists don't make up the core of transhumanists like they once did
16:08 < Urchin> that is my impression right now
16:08 < Urchin> I might be wrong
16:08 < kanzure> Urchin: this seems somewhat anarchist to me. http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm
16:09 < gl00m> theyre not related
16:09 < gl00m> i dont actually like anarchists
16:09 < kanzure> Urchin: there are a lot of people who claim to be transhumanist, but if you look closely, what they really mean is "social media"
16:09 < gl00m> hence post anarchisim
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16:09 < gl00m> its a temporary stage
16:09 < kanzure> what the hell is post-anarchism
16:09 < kanzure> blah
16:09 < gl00m> unless transhumanisim is applied and betters civlizaation to the point where ppl no longer need govt or other systems to regulate their behaviour
16:09 < Urchin> kanzure: max more is no longer all that popular
16:09 < kanzure> Urchin: he was never popular
16:10 < gl00m> i just made it up
16:10 < kanzure> Urchin: and i'm sorta disappointed in him
16:10 < gl00m> off the top of my head yesterday before i found this place
16:10 < gl00m> and realised this morning it was an acronym and decided to roll with it
16:10 < kanzure> maybe you should just say what you mean in the future, instead of post-anarchosynchronicies
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16:11 < Urchin> kanzure: Extropy Institute used to contain almost all of the transhumanist movement when he was at the head
16:11 < Urchin> the guy even knew FM-2030
16:11 < kanzure> fm-2030 isn't that interesting from what i can tell
16:12 < kanzure> also he's dead, so he fucked up hard
16:12 < Urchin> frozen
16:12 < Urchin> might get better in time
16:12 < Urchin> lol
16:12 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure it was revealed that the freezing process for the past 10 years was too damaging
16:13 < kanzure> well, i mean the past 10 years from 2005, not 2012
16:13 < Urchin> I haven't been keeping up with cryonics research
16:13 < Urchin> he might have been vitrified
16:13 < Urchin> freezing is a gamble
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16:15 < chris_99> according to wikipedia it was vitrification
16:15 < Urchin> he's probably fine then
16:15 < Urchin> as much as possible
16:16 < Urchin> it's been a while since I read anything about that period
16:17 < gl00m> heh, Id heard huxly talk about remote controlled (raido reciever in the brain) chickens in the late 50s-60s. and someone just now showed me a book which had an anectdote about some delgado having a remote control bull in 65' that he could stop from charging with the press of a button
16:18 < gl00m> things like this make me wonder what kind of advancements have been made in the past 50-60 years
16:18 < kanzure> lots.
16:18 < kanzure> but not from people who consider themselves "advocates"
16:39 < kanzure> does anyone have a BLAST-like tool for binary blobs?
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16:43 < fenn> try searching for things based on compression distance
16:44 < kanzure> wouldn't that give false positives?
16:45 < fenn> i mean searching google
16:46 < kanzure> oh oh.
16:49 < fenn> there's also agrep, but that may not be what you want
16:49 < fenn> i'm guessing it's something to do with pokemon assembly
16:50 < kanzure> heh
16:50 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/blob/master/extras/comparator.py
16:50 < kanzure> i scan the pokered source code and extract functions, then read the bytes from the ROM, then find those in the other game that i have less-disassembled
16:50 < kanzure> most functions will be different because pointers will change
16:51 < kanzure> but this difference is only two bytes or something
16:51 < fenn> right
16:55 < kanzure> why haven't i purchased a reading of my exome yet
16:59 < JayDugger1> Where have you been shopping?
16:59 < kanzure> well it looks like 23andme has a beta waiting list thing
16:59 < kanzure> for $999
16:59 < JayDugger1> Oh, yeah, for the low low low price of $999
16:59 < kanzure> otogenetics.com is advertising one for $698 but i'm sure that's spam
17:00 < kanzure> genedx is advertising $1000/trio but what the heck is a trio
17:01 < JayDugger1> Would it provide you any actionable information?
17:01 < JayDugger1> (patient and two family members)
17:01 < JayDugger1> Assuming your insurance covers it. :)
17:02 < JayDugger1> And yes, it might tell you some condition or predisposition exists which you didn't suspect.
17:02 < JayDugger1> Have you done everything you can about those things you already know about?
17:03 < kanzure> well, i'm really unsure in general about when's the right time to splurge on genomic information about myself
17:03 < JayDugger1> Fair enough.
17:03 < kanzure> the most important factor that i consider is that my famiy members don't have any backups of their genetic data
17:03 < JayDugger1> Hm?
17:03 < kanzure> i would really really like to have samples from my living relatives to compare against
17:03 < JayDugger1> I don't understand what you mean--oh, now I do.
17:04 < JayDugger1> Well...perhaps it would be better to first, share your 23andMe results with them.
17:04 < JayDugger1> Second, offer to gift them 23andMe's basic test.
17:04 < kanzure> i should probaby just pay for them to do 23andme, since they haven't yet
17:04 < JayDugger1> Yeah, pretty much.
17:05 < JayDugger1> If you've any family members with genealogy as a hobby, 23andMe will interest them from that angle.
17:05 < JayDugger1> It worked on my Dad, for instance.
17:06 < JayDugger1> My sister and I signed him up for the National Genographic Project, which interested him because he does genealogical research as a hobby.
17:06 < JayDugger1> As for splurging--cheaper than a year's worth of first-run video games, I think?
17:07 < kanzure> yeah, it's not much of a splurge now is it?
17:07 < kanzure> but, the costs are also falling anyway - or they are supposed to (haha, yeah right)
17:07 < JayDugger1> I waited for the sales, and then offered it to family members. Only my wife took me up on it.
17:07 < kanzure> so in 5 years, i will feel stupid for having spent $900 in 2012, vs. $10 in 2017
17:07 < kanzure> (i will also feel stupid if all of my family is dead by then, and i don't have any data to work with)
17:08 < JayDugger1> Well, yeah.
17:08 < kanzure> ((i'd probably resort to graverobbing, but let's not give our friends in suits anything else on me))
17:09 < JayDugger1> So let me make this suggestion. Work on convincing your oldest family members now. As you convince people to make the tests, prefer to do it from oldest to youngest,
17:09 < JayDugger1> and where-ever you fall in that ranking, get your test too.
17:10 < JayDugger1> Meanwhile, work on the usual doctor's advice: eat right, avoid stress, exercise, etc.
17:10 < JayDugger1> And take good care of your teeth.
17:10 < kanzure> what does that have to do with exome sequencing?
17:10 < kanzure> sorry, you lost me
17:10 < JayDugger1> If you find from genetic testing that you might have a particular test, act on it only in proportion to the seriousness of the risk.
17:11 < JayDugger1> might have a particular predisposition rather, sorry--still on coffee cup #1.
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17:11 < JayDugger1> This assumes you have the tests done for health, and not for geek cred. :)
17:13 < kanzure> there's also another reason- just curiosity
17:13 < JayDugger1> Oh.
17:13 < kanzure> there's no particular health reason that i need to know my exome, or my SNPs, or anything else for that matter
17:13 < JayDugger1> Right. You did write "splurge."
17:13 < JayDugger1> Not until after you've plucked all the "low-hanging fruit," so to speak.
17:13 < kanzure> although, it's entirely possible that i have a high likelihood of getting addicted to cocaine, so that would be cool to know about
17:14 < JayDugger1> Yeah, if you have a pulse, there's a good chance you're at risk, yes. :)
17:15 < JayDugger1> As for splurging, whenever it fits your budget. If your health insurance will pay for it, even better.
17:20 < fenn> s/cocaine/adderall/
17:20 < JayDugger1> Ditto my earlier comment.
17:21 < fenn> my opinion, best to get your own SNP's now and wait til it's trivially cheap for the rest of the family
17:21 < fenn> you have all of your own genetic information
17:22 < kanzure> the family death factor seems more immediate, i'm unlikely to lose access to my genes
17:22 < fenn> actually, there's a strong trend towards making cool things illegal
17:22 < JayDugger1> Good point, fenn.
17:22 < fenn> so you might "lose access" in the sense that companies like 23andme will no longer exist
17:22 < fenn> that is why i got sequenced
17:23 < kanzure> 23andme is going down the shitter anyway (last i heard they were having problems with becoming profitable)
17:23 < kanzure> not sure how true that is. i should probably not say that.
17:23 < fenn> SELL! SELL!
17:23 < fenn> no wait, BUY!
17:24 < JayDugger1> http://www.personalgenomes.org
17:24 < kanzure> pgp? i'm pretty sure jason bobe hates me, and that's why my application never went through
17:25 < JayDugger1> I don't know whether you'd get any data back. I think so...
17:26 < JayDugger1> Eh...use a fake name.
17:26 < fenn> anyone ever talked to steve fowkes?
17:26 < JayDugger1> Probably easier said than done.
17:26 < kanzure> JayDugger1: didn't they recently upload the data to amazon?
17:26 < kanzure> or was that the 1000 genomes project
17:27 < kanzure> maybe that was a different group
17:27 < fenn> he wrote a popular book about nootropics and maintained newsletters and a nootropics help line for several years
17:27 < JayDugger1> I hadn't heard of that.
17:27 < kanzure> here we go
17:27 < kanzure> JayDugger1: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/diybio/vhy4ghUWCGM
17:27 < kanzure> fenn: a help line? like a phone line?
17:27 < fenn> yeah
17:28 < kanzure> "Apparently in the next few months, there will around a hundred people with maintained human cell lines, and their full genomic sequences will soon follow (reference: http://chirpstory.com/li/6877 ).  To paraphrase:  PGP will sequence about a dozen human genomes per month."
17:28 < kanzure> JayDugger1: if you scroll down in that thread you will also see some links i dropped to the 1000 genomes project data dump on amazon aws
17:28 < JayDugger1> Fenn, I hadn't heard of Mr. Fawkes until now.
17:29 < fenn> "CERI is currently in hibernation mode, due to financial constraints. We would very much like to resume services. If you appreciate the quality and independence of our efforts and know somebody with philanthropic leanings, please make the introduction."
17:29 < fenn> oddly they are located in menlo park, home of the gigabucks
17:29 < kanzure> fenn: chris peterson knows him
17:29 < kanzure> and he went to or spoke at personalized life extension conference
17:29 < kanzure> but that's the only data i have on him
17:30 < fenn> currently reading ceri.com
17:30 < fenn> seems to be as much about anti-aging as nootropics
17:31 < kanzure> the anti-aging crowd is really weird to figure out
17:31 < kanzure> like, where are all these russian publications coming from?
17:32 < fenn> maybe the russian government has bought into the medical tourism strategy
17:33 < fenn> nobody buys nuclear bombs anymore :P
17:33 < kanzure> i keep trying to but they won't take my money
17:35 < JayDugger1> Shouldn't that be, "they keep taking my money but they won't deliver?"
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18:27 < brownies> fenn: eh? link to nootropics book?
18:29 < fenn> i havent read it: http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Drugs-II-Drug-Series/dp/0962741876
18:30 < fenn> dammit where's gigapedia gone off to again
18:31 < kanzure> i think you mean libgenesis
18:31 < fenn> sum | uniq
18:32 < kanzure> worse ui, larger dataset i think
18:35 < brownies> clearly all those smart drugs they took did not help them design a book cover that wasn't hideous
18:35 < fenn> that was at http://free-books.dontexist.com/ right?
18:35 < kanzure> fenn: yes
18:35 < fenn> well it's gone too
18:36 < kanzure> you can track him by his reddit username
18:36 < kanzure> http://www.reddit.com/user/bookwarrior
18:37 < kanzure> might be a backup at http://gen.lib.rus.ec/
18:37 < fenn> i see
18:37 < kanzure> and you can complain here http://gen.lib.rus.ec/forum/
18:38 < fenn> what am i supposed to complain about?
18:38 < kanzure> gigapedia failing to exist? i don't know
18:38 < fenn> "your free illegal service sucks! wah!"
18:38 < brownies> and it was published in 1993 =/
18:38 < kanzure> well we could accost jrayhawk until he agrees to make a mirror
18:39 < brownies> so it's only 19 years out of date!
18:39 < fenn> excellent
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18:52 < docl> kanzure: I used our discussion of misuse of evolution the other day in a lesswrong article, which has now been promoted on Main.
18:56 < gl00m> Ketamine Improves Bipolar Depression Within Minutes
18:56 < kanzure> docl: hey you're not allowed to use my rants to advance the acclaim of lesswrong :|
18:56 < kanzure> well, i guess i never explained my particular dislike of lesswrong to you
18:56 < docl> oh really?
18:56 < kanzure> so you're probably not aware. also i'm slightly kidding, i'm happy for you :\
18:57 < docl> :)
18:57 < kanzure> is this it? http://lesswrong.com/lw/coo/avoid_inflationary_use_of_terms/
18:57 < docl> yep
18:57 < sylph_mako> kanzure, is your dislike expounded somewhere we can all read it?
18:58 < kanzure> docl: you should add "consciousness" and "mind" and "reality"
18:58 < kanzure> well, no, don't add "reality"
18:58 < kanzure> sylph_mako: no, i currently carry a lot of anti-siai debt that i will need to make payments towards one day with actual writing or something
18:58 < sylph_mako> Also have you verbalized your problem with purely philosophical discussions? Because I'm about to verbalize mine and you might save me some effort.
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19:03 < kanzure> sylph_mako: mostly it's my lack of interest in babysitting everyone here through their personal identity crises, or having to fight back their horribly unconsidered philosophies
19:03 < kanzure> i don't claim to have "perfect" philosophy either but i do like to think of myself as somewhat careful
19:04 < kanzure> but also because there's so much other work we could be doing than debating the latest edition of IEET monthly or some crap like that
19:04 < sylph_mako> Careful? I'm glad to hear that.
19:05 < kanzure> almost everyone goes into this horrible identity crises when they consider brain scanning, at some point it's tiresome
19:05 < kanzure> surely we don't have to tolerate that forever in here?
19:06 < strangewarp> I saw that LessWrong article earlier, and loved it
19:07 < docl> :)
19:07 < strangewarp> Always good when they make an actually useful point
19:08 < kanzure> however, if you really think there's a relevant philosophy discussion, you could just privately ask me or something, so i don't go ballistic
19:10 < sylph_mako> Hehehehe
19:10 < kanzure> i can imagine various exceptions to the no philosophy rule, like, say you have a paper that proves consciousness exists, that might be worth looking at
19:11 < kanzure> *exists, /that/ might be worth looking at
19:11 < kanzure> (i have recently noticed that a lot of my tonal implications have been dropped from my messages?)
19:12 < sylph_mako> So, the rule is that we must first ask kanzure whether the theory we wish to discuss is tired?
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19:13 < kanzure> sylph_mako: the rule is to use good judgement
19:15 < docl> good rule!
19:16 < kanzure> and to use better spelling than me (judgment)
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19:29 < kanzure> yashgaroth: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/5491409/Rosetta_Stone_V3_-_Arabic_
19:29 < yashgaroth> heh yeah I've been catching up on the logs
19:30 < yashgaroth> my futile attempts at mandarin are occupying my language-learning hours
19:34 < kanzure> i wonder what the minimum percent variation in muscle mass you're supposed to be able to notice is
19:35 < yashgaroth> aside from the crude 'stick a measuring tape around the widest part' I'm not sure there's a good gauge
19:36 < kanzure> well i meant perceptual, without measuring sticks
19:36 < kanzure> erm, uh.
19:36 < kanzure> somethingprioception
19:36 < yashgaroth> myoception or something, I never took greek
19:38 < yashgaroth> oh while I'm on the logs, fenn: circularizing a peptide that short would extend the half-life greatly but would also block it from folding, which would make it useless for doing whatever it'd do in its native conformation
19:38 < yashgaroth> circular peptides are great if you design them from the get-go to be circular, otherwise it's not worth the hassle
19:42 < brownies> ok, well, now i have to know
19:42 < brownies> what the hell sort of identity crisis would come up when someone considers brain scanning?
19:42 < kanzure> hilarious examples commencing
19:42 < kanzure> there's the classic "if you are copied during your sleep, atom-by-atom, and you wake up the next morning, you're really your son!" arguists
19:43 < kanzure> others are troubled by the fact that they go to sleep and wake up not exactly atomically the same
19:43 < yashgaroth> if there's two copies of you, which "one "is "you"""
19:43 < sylph_mako> Both, I am now two people. Not that I'm discussing this.
19:43 < sylph_mako> No no.
19:44 < kanzure> sylph_mako: go ahead, but i will stubbornly refuse to believe that you are two people
19:44 < brownies> those are pretty hilarious
19:44 < kanzure> brownies: others like to trot out the "quantum teleporation" examples
19:45 < brownies> what happens there?
19:45 < brownies> oh, that's the hypothetical one where your'e dstroyed in one place and an exact copy is created elsewhere?
19:45 < kanzure> if you get turned into atomic soup and teleported to another location, then reassembled, to your original self it will look like you're no longer your self, or something
19:45 < kanzure> yes
19:45 < gl00m> or its alternate realities all the way down
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19:46 < yashgaroth> I've booked a berth on the ship of theseus, myself
19:46 < kanzure> gl00m: you mean hermit turtle masters all the way down
19:46 < gl00m> all the way up too
19:46 < gl00m> apparently
19:47 < brownies> a turtle tower?
19:47 < kanzure> Kamesenryuu Kitsui Shugyou
19:47 < kanzure> 亀仙流きつーい修業
19:48 < yashgaroth> the google search on that was interesting
19:49 < kanzure> just a turtle's philosophy
19:49 < brownies> anyway, if i could copy myself atom-by-atom, we'd write so much fucking code
19:49 < yashgaroth> the only result was some russian malware shit, at least for the transliterated text
19:49 < brownies> oh! we could sleep in shifts, so that our coding output is always constant
19:50 < kanzure> brownies: 2x code output? that doesn't sound like the best use of time
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20:16 < kanzure> klafka1: hi
20:16 < klafka1> hey kanzure
20:16 < klafka1> can't get my mcmc sampler to work!
20:17 < kanzure> brownies: you like to pretend to know how to write good mcmc samplers, right?
20:19 < brownies> kanzure: if you're referring to the time when i taught you how to write one because i know how... -_-
20:19 < brownies> anyway, i'm rusty, but i can take a look.
20:19 < klafka1> https://gist.github.com/2840728
20:19 < kanzure> brownies: yep i am :P
20:19 < brownies> your lack of spacing after your commas angers me
20:19 < klafka1> lol
20:20 < klafka1> i guess i failed PEP that way
20:20 < klafka1> i think PEP allows for either way actually
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20:22 < klafka1> so i modified it to include the distribution i input and the empirical distribution from 10,000 samples
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20:22 < brownies> ok, i see, self.dist is your distribution?
20:23 < klafka1> yes
20:23 < klafka1> no
20:23 < klafka1> er
20:23 < klafka1> sorry
20:23 < brownies> ....
20:23 < klafka1> yes - self.dist is my distribution
20:23 < brownies> see what happens when you use terrible variable names -_-
20:23 < brownies> ok
20:23 < klafka1> prop_dist is my proposal distribution - the uniform distribution
20:23 < brownies> over a 2-dimensional space the size of self.range[1]
20:23 < klafka1> in this case it's uniform 1/16
20:24 < klafka1> yes
20:24 < brownies> whatever the hell self.range is...
20:24 < brownies> ok
20:24 < klafka1> so i'm looking at binary vectors of length 2
20:24 < klafka1> oh shit
20:24 < klafka1> duh
20:24 < klafka1> no nvm that is right
20:25 < klafka1> the proposal distri bution should be 1/4th
20:25 < klafka1> not 1/16th
20:25 < klafka1> and it is in fact that
20:25 < klafka1> since there are 4 possible states for a 2 length binary vector
20:25 < klafka1> idk why the hell i said 1/16th - anyway
20:26 < brownies> ok so
20:26 < brownies> given that your code is extremely confused about what its doing
20:26 < klafka1> is it?
20:26 < brownies> can you just explain succinctly what you want to do?
20:26 < brownies> sample = proposal; proposal = randint(self.range[0],self.range[1],self.size)
20:27 < brownies> well, anyway, what are you trying to do?
20:28 < klafka1> i'm trying to write a sampler for arbitrary discrete probability distributions using the uniform distribution as the proposal distribution
20:28 < klafka1> in this test case i'm wanting to sample binary vectors of length two with probabilities represented in a 2x2 matrix
20:29 < klafka1> so i defined the proposal distribution to be uniform (in this case 1/4). I generate the first sample point from randint - a uniform sampler
20:30 < klafka1> until i reach the number of samples I calculate the (acceptance probability) (named erroneously proposal probability,
20:31 < klafka1> if acceptance probability of sample >= 1 ACCEPT otherwise accept with probability - acceptance_probability,
20:31 < klafka1> set the proposed point to the current point, and generate a new proposal point
20:33 < brownies> i see
20:36 < klafka1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TSIhOyXk5M
20:37 < brownies> (i'm pondering your code)
20:37 < brownies> you didn't even use the burn_in variable?
20:37 < brownies> it almost looks like you're trying to run simulated annealing, but you're missing a couple salient features of that approach...
20:38 < klafka1> burn-in is something i would implement once i got the base line working
20:38 < klafka1> many people would argue that burn-in is pointless
20:38 < klafka1> and also that if i'm generating 10,000 samples for a state space of size 4 i should be able to converge for sure
20:39 < brownies> converge to what, exactly? that's what's unclear about this code
20:40 < klafka1> well by detailed balance the samples generated by the markov chain should be represented of the distribution self.dist
20:40 < klafka1> *representative
20:40 < klafka1>  i mean that's the point of MCMC
20:46 < brownies> so you have a distribution... and you're trying to produce 10,000 samples from that distribution?
20:46 < brownies> what does self.dist return when you give it a vector? the probability of the mystery distribution producing that vector?
20:47 < brownies> the line where you calculate proposal_prob is suspicious to me
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20:53 < klafka1> i'm actually generating a Markov chain composed of 10,000 samples some of which will eventually be from that distribution
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22:20 < kanzure> yashgaroth: blah i am missing plans for doing a reasonable hplc
22:21 < yashgaroth> well shucks
22:21 < kanzure> *poke*
22:21 < yashgaroth> I'm not a mechanical engineer
22:21 < nmz787> fenn still around?
22:21 < kanzure> fenn: pingo
22:25 < nmz787> kanzure: PM
22:28 < yashgaroth> all you reeeeally need is a peristaltic pump that can do maybe 0.1-1.0 ml/min, a way to inject sample into that, and inline pressure & UV sensors...and temperature control, conductivity meter, degasser
22:29 < nmz787> cant HPLC be found on CL or ebay?
22:29 < yashgaroth> indeed, and it's probably way easier to just buy one from the 80's than building one from scratch
22:29 < nmz787> the injectors are pretty cool
22:30 < yashgaroth> hells yeah they are
22:30 < nmz787> it rotates fludic paths to change from buffer to sample injection going to the column, then back again to begin separation
22:32 < yashgaroth> I've only had to manipulate the larger FPLC ones, but yeah it's basically just a rotor with holes running through
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23:33 < strangewarp> PZ Meyers sucks
23:34 < kanzure> probably
23:36 < strangewarp> He claims to be a rationalist, but he makes a beginner-level mistake by assuming transhumanism is a silly cult because it shares several attributes with silly cults
23:36 < yashgaroth> link plz
23:37 < strangewarp> This may take a second - it was an old blog post, from before I stopped reading him
23:37 < strangewarp> I was just reminded about it, by seeing some fellow atheists gush with respect for him
23:40  * strangewarp reads them quickly to make sure he has rememberedthem properly
23:43 < strangewarp> Oh hm
23:43 < strangewarp> Maybe I'm thinking of one of the Skepticblog people
23:43 < strangewarp> Okay, flipping out now, who wrote these blog posts I'm remembering
23:45 < sylph_mako> I vaguely recall their existing.
23:45 < sylph_mako> I remember blue on white. Was the author a technologist of some kind?
23:46 < joshcryer> strangewarp, must be another deathist.
23:46 < joshcryer> :)
23:47 < joshcryer> I remember one where a "rationalist" atheist talked about a discussion he had with his daughter who was, at a child-like level, arguing against death.
23:47 < joshcryer> (vague recollections, but children tend to express distaste for death that adults somehow irrationally accept)
23:47 < strangewarp> sylph_mako: I think it was by one of those celebrity-scientist types, who all gradually fell off my blogroll one by one for being obnoxious or boring
23:49 < strangewarp> joshcryer: Ha, and I'm assuming this so-called "rationalist" used the fact that a naive child hates death as an argument that non-naive people should love death?
23:50 < joshcryer> strangewarp, it's been so long, but he basically used a "death is change" argument.
23:50 < strangewarp> urgh
23:58 < strangewarp> Oh my god, I may have had faulty memories
23:58 < joshcryer> You find it?
23:59 < joshcryer> Now I'm going to have to find the one I remember.
23:59 < strangewarp> Meyers has some posts on transhumanism/singularity stuff, but nothing as obnoxious as what I remember reading
--- Log closed Thu May 31 00:00:26 2012