--- Log opened Thu May 31 00:00:26 2012
00:00 < kanzure> i hate that i remember this
00:00 < kanzure> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/08/ray_kurzweil_does_not_understa.php
00:01 < kanzure> strangewarp: that one?
00:02 < strangewarp> Hm, don't think so, let me read it and check
00:02 < kanzure> also his name is myers
00:02 < strangewarp> whoops
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00:03 < joshcryer> kanzure, heh. I hate that you have a good memory. :P
00:03 < joshcryer> s/hate/am jealous
00:04 < kanzure> well, for every url that i remember, i lose an important skill
00:04 < kanzure> like how to balance
00:04 < kanzure> or how to talk without barfing
00:06 < joshcryer> Haha
00:06 < joshcryer> Also, you didn't know the URL by heart, I'm sure some scheme was used.
00:07 < strangewarp> Wow, I may have genuinely had a false memory there - aside from the mostly justified criticism of Kurzweil I'm not seeing any of the tone or claims I remembered, in any posts I can google
00:07 < Burn_school> strangewarp: Most of your memories are interpolated on demand from a small number of facts.
00:07 < kanzure> there was an earlier one.
00:07 < strangewarp> Burn_school, yep
00:08 < Burn_school> "False" memory is just something that doesn't fit with other facts
00:10 < joshcryer> strangewarp, this leaves quite a bad taste either way.
00:10 < Burn_school> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/09/futurists-make-me-cranky/
00:10 < Burn_school> ?
00:11 < strangewarp> Burn_school, looked at that one, and I remember seeing it but I also remember that isn't the one I had in mind
00:12  * strangewarp continues googling..
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00:12 < kanzure> futurists make everyone cranky
00:12 < Burn_school> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/08/17/ray-kurzweil-does-not-understa/
00:13 < Burn_school> http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/02/13/singularitarianism/
00:13 < kanzure> "futurism" isn't a particularly skilled profession
00:13 < Burn_school> Wow. Sounds just like the Raelians, or Hercolubians, or Scientologists, or any of the modern New Age pseudosciences that appropriate a bit of jargon and blow it up into a huge mythology. Nice hyperbole there, though. Too bad the whole movement is empty of evidence.
00:13 < Burn_school> "
00:14 < joshcryer> Ugh.
00:14 < kanzure> that's a reasonabel response to "futurists" trying to paint a picture like a religion
00:14 < strangewarp> Oh, that might have been the paragraph that originally peeved me off, and then I inflated its length and prominence in subsequent rememberings, hmm
00:14 < kanzure> because the critics are right- that's total nonsense
00:15 < joshcryer> This discussion: H+ advocating human beings using search methods to find articles where an irrational atheist claims there is no evidence to back up the advancement of humans.
00:16 < joshcryer> kanzure, sure, I call it the nerd rapture.
00:16 < joshcryer> kanzure, it's still in a completely different classification than cults.
00:20 < joshcryer> There are those with "irrational exuberance" and even "faith." For instance, I do find Kurzweil's inevitability argument to be too optimistic of a view, but his S-curves are still damn convincing.
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00:24 < strangewarp> I think there is a difference between "faith" and "confidence" - confidence is based upon apparent evidence; faith is based upon the projection of moral desires
00:25 < Utopiah> (very young but maybe still conventional) doctor said blood test and DNA test overall waste of money when you're not even 30y/o
00:29 < joshcryer> That's fair enough strangewarp.
00:30 < kanzure> Utopiah: depends on what you mean by "DNA test"
00:30 < Utopiah> I meant 23andMe, he didnt know so Ill send him details
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00:31 < kanzure> 23andme is the most popular snp provider, i sorta doubt his knowledge of snps if he isn't aware of their existence
00:31 < Utopiah> yes I was a bit surprised
00:31 < brownies> i read a Kurzweil book back when i was young
00:31 < brownies> freaky stuff. really shiny book cover, though.
00:32 < kanzure> brownies: me too. i sent him an angry email when i finished, telling him how much i hated him.
00:32 < kanzure> he replied back offering a free copy of his next book
00:32 < brownies> lmao
00:32 < kanzure> well played.
00:32  * kanzure sleeps
00:34 < strangewarp> I read about 150 pages of The Singularity Is Near, in 2008
00:34 < strangewarp> I think Kurzweil is not ambitious enough
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00:37 < strangewarp> If I could trade in all my Kurzweil, Jung, and Danto for what I paid for them, I'd be able to buy two Meeblip Micros, and that would be pretty good
00:39 < joshcryer> http://www.sharenator.com/Graphic_evolution/
00:39 < joshcryer> What Kurzweil has is a pretty decent observation of technological advancement.
00:46 < joshcryer> http://hothardware.com/News/Sergey-Brin-Demos-Google-Glasses-Prototype-on-The-Gavin-Newsom-Show-Suggests-Possible-Release-Next-Year/
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00:46 < joshcryer> One of Kurzweil's biggest misses was VR headsets.
00:46 < strangewarp> I've also heard anecdotes that he's continually bending the ears of the rich and influential, which is probably good
00:46 < joshcryer> Finally Google is attempting it but I think it'll be a few years yet.
00:46 < strangewarp> ... Actually I think I might have heard that here at some point? I'm not sure
00:47 < joshcryer> Apple has to do it to make it move culturally.
00:47 < joshcryer> Or some other group or company that doesn't exist yet. (Maybe Open Source?)
00:47 < joshcryer> When Gavin Newsom sees his picture you can tell he's witnessing something intriguing.
00:58 < joshcryer> https://plus.google.com/photos/111626127367496192147/albums/5745849874061604161/5745850088505537234
01:05 < strangewarp> Oh rad
01:06 < strangewarp> Another step towards full intimacy with the production of media, I suppose - put the camera on the face, instead of the hands
01:16 < joshcryer> Cool Cryonics novel called The First Immortal has a guy in it who dies in an explosion, they make a genetic match for him (using sibblings, it's imperfect) and implant his brain with video recordings he made most of his life (he recorded everything). Cool concept.
01:17 < joshcryer> s/sibblings/offspring
01:21 < strangewarp> Hmmm, fun - if I died without cryonics, I would probably just cross my fingers for Big Universe brute-force resimulation
01:22 < strangewarp> I was going to say I'd be uncomfortable with inaccurate copies beyond a certain threshold, but then I realized I've had memory and identity weirdness in my life, and not really had any terrible existential crises about it
01:22 < joshcryer> I ain't taking the chance. ;)
01:22 < joshcryer> I think we're going to die eventually, around the heat death.
01:22 < joshcryer> I don't hold out hope for other future advancements that avoid that.
01:22 < strangewarp> hmmm
01:23 < joshcryer> I also don't think we'll surpass light speed.
01:23 < joshcryer> Fortunately the local cluster is all aggregating toward the Great Attractor and we should have a nice super galaxy that lasts 200 trillion years.
01:24 < strangewarp> Maybe the solution to the Fermi paradox is that this universe's physics are incredibly droll and restrictive compared to most other possible universes that are capable of supporting intelligent life, and every sufficiently advanced civilization auto-suicides in the hope of resimulation elsewhere in a Big Universe :P
01:25 < joshcryer> (assuming proton decay is > 200 years and Higgs is stable, heh)
01:25 < strangewarp> Sorry, I'm having too much fun with that idea
01:26 < joshcryer> Don't worry, in an infinitely big universe with an infinitely long timeline, you will be infinitely reproduced randomly in every configuration. Sadly most configurations you pop and die, and your bodies are floating around out there.
01:27 < strangewarp> Aye, the Boltzmann Brain problem
01:27 < strangewarp> I've been thinking about it, and I'll say something if I ever have a good idea about it
01:36 < strangewarp> It really depends on how common bulk resimulators are in comparison to Boltzmann brains, which of course is unknowable, and couldn't be estimated until the far future
01:40 < strangewarp> That may be an argument for creating as many different people as possible after all, actually, even though it seems like the implication of Big Universe would be to merely ensure that everyone who already exists lives well
01:40 < joshcryer> I think resimulation won't be possible if we can't create energy flow.
01:41 < strangewarp> I don't know what you mean by "energy flow", but my perspective on this is materialist
01:43 < joshcryer> Energy can't be created or destroyed, it just goes from being useful to not useful. ie, entropy. So you'd need anti-entropy or a way to create a new big bang or a way to skip into another universe (but I don't believe in multiple universes, for the record).
01:45 < joshcryer> Within 100 billion years we will not have any galaxies visible to us, the local cluster will aggregate.
01:45 < joshcryer> (and we'll be basically one big super galaxy)
01:46 < joshcryer> 100 trillion years after that all will be left are black holes.
01:47 < strangewarp> Oh yes, it may very well be that in the long-term, we in particular are screwed - and if the universe is conventional and not Big, that would be depressing
01:49 < joshcryer> Good article about it: http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9902189v1
01:49 < strangewarp> By the way, thank you - bouncing these ideas around in a venue with actual people has given me insight into a future arts project I may be doing about objectivity and modal realism
01:50 < joshcryer> The most startling conclusion is that 100 billion years from now the new scientists will have no knowledge of the big bang, it will completely beyond their grasp (so it will have to be passed down from generation to generation and fall out of the realm of science).
01:50 < joshcryer> Sweet. These same ideas are the topic of a book I'm writing. :)
01:51 < strangewarp> No evidence for the Big Bang... hmm, that's funny
01:53 < joshcryer> Ironically, I am linking a paper that poses a pessimistic view of eternal life, while earlier decrying "deathists."
01:55 < joshcryer> But I think there's a tangible difference between becoming worm food in 100 years, give or take, and watching the lights go out on the entire goddamn universe, as it were. :)
01:55 < strangewarp> absolutely agreed :p
01:55 < joshcryer> (100 trillion years from now :P)
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07:06 < gl00m> you guys heard about the psychographic profiling program they have at booz
07:06 < gl00m> basicaly they are taking available social record for people and comparing them to the related set of genes and using that to base future marketing techniques
07:07 < gl00m> according to them they can reasonably predict some peoples future purchases and want to send them advertising before they even realise they wanted the thing
07:07 < chris_99> haha
07:09 < ThomasEgi> so.. best to spend a few minutes a day clicking random ads
07:11 < gl00m> i saw collins speak when they dedicated his wing at mary baldwin
07:11 < gl00m> nice to see the president taking interest in genomics by hireing him
07:12 < gl00m> gavin newsome = christian bale
07:13 < gl00m> klafka you ever meet someone named benny
07:14 < ThomasEgi> benny.. sounds like a mix between ben and jerry. which makes me hungry
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07:37 < kanzure> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/bitcoin-the-cryptoanarchists-answer-to-cash/0
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09:21 < _F7_> blargh dental
09:22 < _F7_> when the hygenist asks "have you ever seen the movie marathon man?"
09:22 < _F7_> it's a particularly long procedure
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09:37 < kanzure> chewing? how pedestrian
09:37 < kanzure> haha
09:40 < _F7_> haha
09:41 < _F7_> what do I need to know about the bay area thing?
09:41 < _F7_> I figured I'd get an email or something
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09:57 < kanzure> _F7_: there have been many emails
09:58 < kanzure> _F7_: have you confirmed with kathleen?
09:58 < _F7_> I missed the one where it talks about airfare and kathleen
09:58 < _F7_> I will gmail
09:59 < kanzure> _F7_: there's been lots of other emails though
09:59 < kanzure> _F7_: you were originally contacted by the fbi, right?
10:00 < _F7_> jacob informed me after the FBI lunch thingy
10:01 < _F7_> said to talk to you
10:01 < _F7_> so I did that
10:01 < kanzure> okay, and what ese
10:01 < kanzure> *else
10:01 < _F7_> I've had no fbi contact since
10:01 < kanzure> oh jeeze i screwed up then
10:01 < kanzure> jacob said to talk to me? that's not how jacob got confirmation at all.
10:02 < _F7_> I said I hadn't been contacted about it, so jacob suggested talking to you
10:02 < kanzure> wait, go over it again?
10:02 < kanzure> have you ever received an email from the fbi in the last few months?
10:03 < _F7_> nope
10:03 < kanzure> ok that's bad
10:03 < kanzure> so the story is that they /probably/ have all the people they can afford,
10:03 < kanzure> i will send out an email and cc you to check on that
10:04 < _F7_> okay, cool
10:04 < kanzure> they also may or may not be open to people showing up on their own
10:04 < kanzure> we sent out an email to them yesterday to check on that
10:04 < kanzure> but i haven't heard back since
10:05 < kanzure> also if you do intend to go, they want presentations emailed to them by tomorrow (june 1)
10:05 < kanzure> i think jacob has you covered on that department though
10:05 < _F7_> If I miss it I miss it, I'm pretty used to things Jacob informs me of having fatal planning flaws
10:05 < kanzure> so, if jacob is going, he's going to have a hotel room with two beds, so you could probably just show up with him
10:06 < kanzure> the airfare is like $90 on jetblue
10:06 < _F7_> nice
10:07 < kanzure> _F7_: for what it's worth, i think it would be a lot more fun if you showed up, haha
10:08 < _F7_> okay, I'll look at jetblue
10:09 < _F7_> I'll probably spellcheck jacob's presentation too, I have no idea what he's doing
10:10 < kanzure> _F7_: i've sent out an email to you and jojack
10:13 < kanzure> _F7_: sorry about all that. i was under the assumption that you were contacted by /them/ last month, not just me and jacob.
10:14 < _F7_> just texted jacob, trying to get in the loop
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10:14 < kanzure> hi LionClan
10:15 < LionClan> hi kanzure
10:15 < LionClan> I'm tracking NonFish
10:15 < LionClan> is he active?
10:15 < kanzure> sorta kinda
10:16 < kanzure> i think he might be dying from some muscular disorder
10:16 < kanzure> not sure
10:17 < LionClan> well the phone doesn't answer
10:19 < LionClan> word is relayed he's ok
10:24 < LionClan> patient dl589.2 has the same muscular disorder, it is a failure to create dystrophin, resulting in loss of cell wall solidity, caused in their case by a deletion of exons 51-55 on the 78 exon long gene that governs the creation of dystrophin
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10:26 < Steel2_> uhauls are fucking expensive
10:26 < kanzure> don't you have to be some minimum age, like 29, to rent one?
10:27 < kanzure> anyway, i think most people just opt to sell everything
10:27 < Mokbortolan_1> Steel2: yeah, try the other one, they're a little cheaper
10:27 < _F7_> cool, I got the email. I'm going to go home, take some iburprofen, and help jacob with his presentation
10:27 < Mokbortolan_1> can't remember the name atm, starts with a P I think
10:28 < _F7_> do I need to RSVP? with whom?
10:29 < kanzure> _F7_: yes, you need to rsvp with kathleen strong, joseph jackson, and nathan head
10:29 < kanzure> kathleen carley <kathleen.carley@ic.fbi.gov>
10:29 < kanzure> nathan head <nathaniel.head@ic.fbi.gov>
10:29 < kanzure> joseph jackson <joseph.jackson@gmail.com>
10:31 < _F7_> cool. I just tell them I'll be there?
10:31 < kanzure> hmm no
10:31 < _F7_> what specifically goes into wildblue? I know there's stuff going on afterwards.
10:32 < _F7_> I don't want to be too late/early for arriving/going
10:32 < kanzure> say something along hte lines of, "I was told by Bryan and Joseph that I can attend the FBI/DIYbio workshop if I am in San Francisco on those dates? I'll be presenting with Jacob, blah blah blah"
10:32 < kanzure> you should also ask them about the exact dates
10:32 < kanzure> there's also this: http://startupscience.eventbrite.com/
10:33 < _F7_> jacob is forwarding details. I'm going to pop offline, take some ibuprofen, and pop back on later
10:33 < _F7_> thanks
10:34 < Steel2_> penske is actually more expensive
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10:43 < nmz787> Steel2_ are you looking at trucks or trailers?
10:43 < Steel2_> trucks
10:43 < Steel2_> II could have dangerously crammed everything into a 14
10:43 < Steel2_> so I got a 17
10:43 < Steel2_> then they upgraded me to a 20
10:43 < Steel2_> welp.
10:44 < kanzure> yep i'm going to stick with my recommended approach of "sell everything" and/or "burn everything"
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10:44 < Steel2_> good furniture/parents who nag if I get rid of good furniture/dad is helping me move
10:45 < kanzure> oh you're a furniture person
10:45 < kanzure> i see.
10:45 < Steel2_> yup
10:45 < Steel2_> nice desk, coffeetable, bookshelves
10:45 < nmz787> if i move from NY to SF i'm renting a 6" x 12" uhaul trailer and sticking that on the back of my chevy blazer
10:45 < nmz787> should avoid the burn/sell
10:46 < Steel2_> deep freezer, more bookshelves, 2 bureaus, tv stand...
10:46 < Steel2_> fucktons of books
10:46 < nmz787> i def dont want to burn/sell my 'scopes, kV gel electrophoresis power supply, etc!
10:46 < Steel2_> oh, right, an armoir
10:46 < nmz787> yes, fucktons of books
10:46 < nmz787> great for burning
10:46 < ThomasEgi> hm... how many tons are one fuckton?
10:46 < kanzure> http://1dollarscan.com/
10:47 < Mariu> LOL
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10:53 < ThomasEgi> hm... sending in some documents with "CLASSIFIED" all over it
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11:05 < nmz787> kanzure: any reviews?
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11:08 < kanzure> nmz787: reviews??
11:08 < kanzure> the presentation is still upcoming, sorry
11:08 < kanzure> it will be a few hours
11:08 < kanzure> also i'd be happy to incorporate hwatever you have
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11:20 < chris_99> what's your presentation on kanzure ?
11:20 < kanzure> just informing some fbi agents and the department of defense about diy dna synthesis
11:21 < chris_99> ooh cool
11:21 < chris_99> will you put your presentation online?
11:23 < kanzure> sure why not.. it's just 10 slides though, it's not that big of a deal
11:24 < chris_99> :)
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12:16 < _F7_> jetblue is being confusing
12:17 < _F7_> It doesn't seem to be capable of getting an arrival for california
12:22 < kanzure> awesome
12:23 < kanzure> haha you can use whatever airline you like, i just recall getting stupid cheap $90 flights from them
12:23 < kanzure> this might have been a marketing ploy, in which case i now hate them
12:32 < Mokbortolan_1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqp3bWqxDsc
12:32 < Mokbortolan_1> kinect mapping
12:32 < Mokbortolan_1> (in color)
12:42 < _F7_> Should I arrive on the 11th and leave on the 15th?
12:43 < _F7_> wait wtf that's core weekday
12:43 < _F7_> it doesn't hurt me to stay an extra day or two
12:43 < _F7_> jacob is going to be there from 8th to 18th
12:44 < kanzure> you should consider staying for the 16th to attend jojack's startupscience event
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12:45 < kanzure> attendees are listed here: http://startupscience.eventbrite.com/
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12:45 < kanzure> oh sorry. june 15.
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12:51 < kanzure> JayDugger1: who is ken burnside?
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13:37 < kanzure> "But even more importantly, there is clearly a demand for them and the companies offering them pay for costly advertising and presumably make good money. So now, the REALLY interesting question arises, "Why do these companies use such "lousy" sensing technology? Why don't they try to capture cardiac arrest - not just in the home, but everywhere?""
13:37 < kanzure> " This will probably seem regrettably arrogant, but I think I'm uniquely positioned to give an answer to that question. And the answer is: "Because detecting cardiac arrest has no added benefit whatsoever.""
13:37 < kanzure> "The time from the onset of cardiac arrest to the possibility of successful resuscitation without significant brain damage is 4-6 minutes - tops. Truth to tell, 5 minutes is probably a very solid number. Short of an implanted unit (in which case you'd have a defibrillator implanted, as well), it will always be necessary to verify an alarm state, and then there are the logistics of getting the paramedical team to the patient in 5 minutes, or less."
13:37 < kanzure> "That may superficially seem doable if you look at the raw response time numbers, but in a situation of an arrest where the person is in a locked home alone, that time quickly balloons, because there is no mechanism in place for paramedics to break down the door to gain entry. And even if there were, the time spent in doing so, locating the patient, and starting the rescue efforts would almost invariably exceed 5 minutes."
13:37 < kanzure> "But, even if the paramedics could be on site in 5 minutes and starting rescued efforts (a tall order!) the overall save rate is very, very low. It is so low, that were CPR to be proposed today with a full understanding of the save rate, it would not pass muster and the money would go elsewhere in the healthcare system."
13:37 < kanzure> "However, as it is, there is currently no benefit to knowing that cardiac arrest has occurred in an out of hospital situation.And, I have news for you, there is damn little benefit to knowing it has occurred in-hospital, either. In fact, the era of the Code Team has largely passed, although it will take awhile for the TV medical shows to catch up with this change."
13:38 < kanzure> "In place of the Code Team is the Medical Emergency Team (MET). The MET replaced the Code Team because the salvage rate in Code Blues was so low as to be ridiculous (2-4%)."
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13:38 < yashgaroth> ah crap do I need to present something to be allowed to go
13:40 < kanzure> "There are already good solutions on the market to detect cardiac arrest in extremely high risk patients, and the best of these are the wearable external (WED) or implantable defibrillators (ID) that also treat it immediately.Nobody cares if you have a cardiac arrest that is not successfully managed by an ID or WED, because if you can't be saved with an immediate shock, you will not be saved by a subsequent paramedical response"
13:40 < kanzure> yashgaroth: just put your myostatin stuff into a 10 slide powerpoint and email it to them
13:41 < yashgaroth> I thought the deadline was tomorrow? that sounds like a challenge!
13:41 < kanzure> also while doing it realize that (1) lots of diybio/diytanshumanism people will be listening, so would enjoy lots of suggestions or ideas, and (2) the department of defense (military), fbi, homeland security and other agencies will be wondering "oh shit how do i deal with this when i go up against a 300 pound 6 foot 9 inches bodybuilder"
13:42 < yashgaroth> haha very well
13:42 < kanzure> that's probably not the actual question they would ask
13:43 < kanzure> but for instance, one agent was surprised last year to learn what a CO2 tank looked like
13:43 < kanzure> "i would have totally called a bomb squad on that"
13:44 < yashgaroth> haha
13:44 < yashgaroth> k well my interview got pushed to tomorrow so I'll grab some stims and get cracking
13:44 < kanzure> also do mine, thanks
13:45 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i sent you some emails about making sure you have talked with kathleen/nathan to confirm your attendance
13:46 < yashgaroth> right, wasn't sure if I need to a attach a ppt file with that, or just the promise of one
13:46 < eudoxia_> oh man I thought hospitals still used codes ;_;
13:47 < kanzure> yashgaroth: you should probably attach a ppt, but i'm sure they will allow revisions
13:48 < kanzure> i'm also sure that if you are late by a day, they won't murder you
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14:30 < yashgaroth> hmm..."Dear Agents,"? or just "Agents"
14:31 < yashgaroth> I'm probably overthinking it
14:32 < kanzure> uhh
14:32 < kanzure> how about neither
14:32 < yashgaroth> yeah that's probably the best option
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14:38 < kanzure> "We have just received the news that Judge Alsup ruled against Oracle, finding that APIs are not subject to copyright protection. We will have the full ruling shortly."
14:38 < kanzure> hehehe
14:38 < kanzure> copy all ze APIs!
14:39 < kanzure> ruling is over here:
14:39 < kanzure> http://www.scribd.com/zdnetrachel/d/95477548-Oracle-v-Google-Order-Regarding-Copyrightability-of-APIs
14:39 < kanzure> with apologies for linking to scribd :(
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14:58 < chris_99> anyone know a way to produce amylase
14:58 < yashgaroth> spit onto an affinity column
14:59 < chris_99> heh, without spitting
15:01 < yashgaroth> any specific variant of amylase?
15:01 < chris_99> alpha or beta
15:04 < yashgaroth> well I guess you can just overexpress it in yeast
15:06 < brownies> kanzure: ooh, great news
15:07 < kanzure> brownies: you found your belly button?
15:07 < kanzure> oh you mean the judgement. yeah, i'm reading it now.
15:08 < kanzure> he's seriously teaching his readers about language grammar? heh
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15:33 < roksprok> any lawyer types around here?
15:39 < kanzure> i owe my first born to lawyers, does that count?
15:40 < yashgaroth> I advide you to sue, roksprok
15:40 < yashgaroth> s*
15:40 < roksprok> yashgaroth: it is to prevent me from being sued
15:40 < kanzure> let's hear it
15:40 < roksprok> so i have a contract on an hourly basis with company A
15:40 < roksprok> relevant part:
15:41 < roksprok> 5.2 Pre-existing Obligations.  Consultant represents and warrants that
15:41 < roksprok> Consultant has no pre-existing obligations or commitments (and will not assume or otherwise
15:41 < roksprok> undertake any obligations or commitments) that would be in conflict or inconsistent with, or that
15:41 < roksprok> would hinder Consultant’s performance of its obligations under this Agreement
15:41 < kanzure> that usually refers to things like "i signed a non-compete, and i'm not allowed to work for this company"
15:41 < roksprok> does this prevent me from taking a part time job with company b?
15:42 < roksprok> ok so obligations or commitments doesn't mean 'another job'
15:42 < kanzure> it depends on what the obligations are in the contract
15:43 < kanzure> brownies: ping?
15:44 < kanzure> i mean, personally, i would never sign anything that precludes me from working as much as i possibly can
15:44 < brownies> reading
15:44 < yashgaroth> can't you just ask company A if they'd theoretically be okay with it
15:44 < roksprok> i don't really see any...i mean its all normalish 'we own your intellectual property' but every line like that includes 'that you make while performing services in relation with this contract'
15:44 < brownies> it does not, strictly speaking, although that's more strongly worded than i like when i write the contract
15:45 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i think that's the best approach
15:45 < brownies> on the other hand i'm very paranoid about this stuff; nothing in there strikes me as too far from normal
15:45 < kanzure> roksprok: if your relationship with the company that you signed that contract with is such that you think they would get furious and sue you for making money, then you should proceed to drop them
15:46 < kanzure> roksprok: can we see the full contract?
15:46 < roksprok> kanzure: i guess honestly the worst that would happen is they fire me....
15:46 < yashgaroth> if they fire you for asking a question about your contract, then fuck 'em
15:47 < kanzure> yeah, no kidding
15:47 < roksprok> yea 1 sec
15:47 < yashgaroth> is it a full-time position? if it's not, they can't expect you not to work elsewhere as well
15:48 < roksprok> http://pastebin.com/KEBsGpdv
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15:49 < roksprok> yashgaroth: yea it is
15:49 < kanzure> however, you do have some tricky issues to navigate if the other business is in the same exact industry doing the same exact work
15:49 < kanzure> hahaha 1.2 is ridiculous
15:50 < brownies> 1.2?
15:50 < brownies> what's wrong with 1.2 o.O
15:50 < kanzure> "Consultant will perform the consulting services
15:50 < kanzure> specified in each Statement of Work"
15:50 < roksprok> kanzure: they are not
15:50 < brownies> ...yes?
15:50 < kanzure> that's not contracting/consulting... that's normal employment
15:50 < nmz787> kanzure: you make any slides?
15:50 < kanzure> nmz787: i have a few more things to do today, i'm sorry
15:51 < kanzure> nmz787: i really have set aside the time though, i'm not putting it off :P
15:51 < nmz787> so will you do any today or wait til tomorrow?
15:51 < kanzure> today
15:51 < roksprok> and the other place would know i have a job, so would ideally be flexible
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15:52 < brownies> don't quote me on this, but from everything i've heard there's no such thing as an enforceable non-compete in California
15:52 < brownies> re: 5.1
15:52 < kanzure> ehh i guess this changes 1.2 sorta--
15:52 < kanzure> "Consultant will perform the Services under the general direction of Company, but Consultant
15:52 < roksprok> kanzure: does 'statement of work' mean they give me a list of things to do
15:52 < kanzure> will determine, in Consultant’s sole discretion, the manner and means by which the Services are
15:52 < kanzure> accomplished"
15:53 < kanzure> heh, well.. it depends on how you operate man
15:53 < kanzure> like, the way i like to do things is i tell them what i'm going to do, and why they need me tod o it
15:53 < kanzure> *do it
15:54 < brownies> that's all boilerplate man
15:54 < brownies> i read it; there's nothing particularly egregious here
15:54 < roksprok> kanzure: i think the consulting you do is on a slightly hire level
15:54 < kanzure> brownies: it might be indicative of how they operate as a company
15:54 < roksprok> higher
15:54 < kanzure> brownies: i.e. might be a slaveshop
15:55 < brownies> i prefer to shove my version onto the company, but oftentimes if the company is presenting their version of a contract it will be worded slightly in their favor, like this one is
15:55 < brownies> standard practice
15:55 < kanzure> 2.3 is important to take note of
15:55 < brownies> that said, i'm not your lawyer/accountant/dentist/etc.
15:55 < brownies> yea 2.3 is new but i guess it's reasonable.
15:55 < roksprok> brownies: so if i said 'can i have friday off' and they said 'sure' i could go work someplace and they wouldn't sue me
15:56 < brownies> you're not an employee; you don't ask for their direction on when/where/how to work...
15:56 < kanzure> roksprok: 2.3 and the indemnification clauses are highly in the company's favor
15:56 < kanzure> 2.3 is a smart thing to do for yourself in general
15:57 < roksprok> does health insurance count?
15:57 < brownies> having an indemnification clause is standard practice
15:57 < kanzure> one indemnification clause i signed once put the maximum damages at like "not more than the amount paid to consultant" or something
15:57 < brownies> true.
15:57 < brownies> roksprok: no, i think liability insurance is different.
15:57 < kanzure> liability insurance is definitely not health insurance
15:58 < roksprok> but i'm liable only for injuries to myself....right?
15:58 < kanzure> btw if this is a job for <$20/hour, getting liability insurance will probably be very costly? :P
15:58 < kanzure> no, you're liable for defective software
15:59 < kanzure> "Consultant will indemnify and hold harmless Company from and against all claims, damages, losses and expenses, including court costs and reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of ..."
15:59 < roksprok> well it will be internal stuff
15:59 < kanzure> "any action by a third party against Company that is based on a claim that any Services, the results of any Services (including any Innovations), or Company’s use thereof, infringe, misappropriate or violate a third party’s Intellectual Property Rights;"
15:59 < brownies> yeah, read the contract, man
16:00 < kanzure> "any action by a third party against Company that is based on any negligent act or omission or willful conduct of Consultant and that results in: (a) bodily injury, sickness, disease or death; (b) injury or destruction to tangible or intangible property (including computer programs and data) or any loss of use resulting therefrom; or (c) the violation of any statute, ordinance, or regulation."
16:00 < kanzure> "negligent act of omission"
16:00 < kanzure> "intangible property" (software, data)
16:00 < brownies> well, i mean, if you create a device for them that infringes on a patent and electrocutes someone, then it's reasonable to hold you liable for both things. -_-
16:00 < kanzure> *or omission
16:01 < brownies> i'm assuming this is for your internship, btw, so it does feel overall like they are just being cheap
16:01 < roksprok> well its all internal stuff, so i mean its not like it has the potential to delete anyone's data or anything
16:01 < brownies> they should just hire you as a damn employee
16:01 < kanzure> roksprok: how much are they offering to pay you?
16:01 < roksprok> brownies: yea, it is....
16:01 < roksprok> 20/hr
16:01 < kanzure> ok this is over the top for 20/hour
16:01 < kanzure> i'm not sure about professional liability coverage at $20/hour
16:02 < brownies> 20/hr is high for an internship, at least.
16:02 < kanzure> brownies: well his standards have at least improved from $0/hour to $20/hour
16:02 < brownies> big improvement. congrats on that :)
16:02 < kanzure> so that's an infinite improvement or something
16:02 < roksprok> brownies: thanks for all your help
16:02 < roksprok> and kanzure
16:02 < kanzure> roksprok: talk with a contract lawyer
16:03 < kanzure> call one up, talk with his assistant, say you're new to this, you have an offer and a contract, and would like to spend an hour talking about it
16:03 < kanzure> they will usually give you that hour for free
16:03 < kanzure> and plus, if the company stops paying you, you have your go-to guy to help you fix the problem
16:04 < roksprok> ok i will do that
16:04 < roksprok> actually i may just ask a friend's dad or something
16:04 < kanzure> "ompany’s payment obligation will be expressly subject to Consultant’s completion of such milestones to Company’s reasonable satisfaction."
16:04 < roksprok> would 'contract law' or 'employment law' be the right keyword
16:05 < kanzure> it doesn't matter because either of those types of people will have a long rollodex of people to recommend to you
16:05 < kanzure> "Subject to the foregoing, Company will pay each invoice submitted by Consultant within thirty (30) days following receipt thereof."
16:05 < brownies> bonus, they'll also know how to spell rolodex!
16:05 < kanzure> eww net 30 :)
16:05 < kanzure> brownies: this is why my law firm was doomed to failure
16:06 < brownies> anyway, we're not lawyers, go get some real advice!
16:06 < kanzure> yes.
16:06 < kanzure> is this an internship btw?
16:06 < kanzure> or are they just cheap
16:06 < roksprok> will do....yea it is
16:06 < brownies> kanzure: also because you just kept saying "Esquire" at the end of random sentences.
16:08 < roksprok> *random other question* is there a way to practice coding interviews without doing coding interviews? like a code-against-the-clock game or something
16:09 < kanzure> fizz buzz.
16:09 < kanzure> if you can't do that, i will break your legs.
16:09 < kanzure> Write a program that prints the numbers from 1 to 100. But for multiples of three print "Fizz" instead of the number and for the multiples of five print "Buzz". For numbers which are multiples of both three and five print "FizzBuzz".
16:10 < kanzure> also: why are you doing an internship?
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16:11 < roksprok> is the answer basically 'if loops...if loops everywhere'?
16:11 < kanzure> not quite
16:11 < yashgaroth> you only need one if loop
16:11 < kanzure> you should write it out and show me so i can yell at you
16:11 < yashgaroth> errr, for loop, rather
16:12 < kanzure> roksprok: also i feel it's important to remind you that the company will expect you to send an invoice to get paid
16:12 < roksprok> and i know there are questions, but is there like a codeacademy type thing where it would say do that then start a count down and give me stats on x% of people solved it faster than you
16:12 < kanzure> brownies: i've never bothered to try, but i wonder what would happen if you submit invoices early, in expectation of net 30
16:12 < kanzure> roksprok: not really. udacity absolutely sucks.
16:12 < kanzure> i've been helping someone out with udacity's python assignments, and it's just atrocious.
16:13 < kanzure> they don't go over the differences between "print" and "return"
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16:15 < kanzure> roksprok: i think this would be a valuable thing for you to go over..
16:15 < kanzure> http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ruby-on-rails-tutorial-book#top
16:15 < kanzure> it's not exactly programming straight up, but chances are you could use the experience with that sort of environment
16:16 < roksprok> even with no ruby knowledge?
16:16 < kanzure> hrmm
16:17 < kanzure> ok that's right, i forgot that you're python-centric
16:19 < kanzure> you shouldn't be particularly concerned with how fast you can solve things.. i mean, fizzbuzz should not take you an hour, but if it takes you 15 minutes and it takes everyone else 5, it's not super important..
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16:20 < roksprok> speaking of fizzbuzz, not sure if you actually wanted to see it, if not disregard: http://pastebin.com/F67PeV6s
16:22 < roksprok> not sure how to do it in less than 3 if loops?
16:24 < brownies> roksprok: i think you're looking for TopCoder
16:24 < brownies> if you spend too long with silicon valley mouthbreathers you might start believing that building a web app is the pinnacle of software engineering.
16:25 < brownies> project Euler would also be good.
16:25 < brownies> kanzure: they pay when they pay, from what i've found.
16:25 < brownies> the good ones pay on time and follow up with me, so i keep working with them... the bad ones don't, so i stop working with them.
16:26 < roksprok> brownies: topcoder looks very good....project euler is nice but i'd kind of like a timed thing....i tend to get a bit flustered in interviews and would like to work on it
16:28 < kanzure> roksprok: btw, don't call them if loops :P
16:28 < kanzure> they are just if statements, or conditionals
16:28 < kanzure> the for is a loop
16:28 < kanzure> second, line 4 and 6 are broken
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16:29 < kanzure> brownies: right, i just don't know if he's prepared for the agony of the 30 day wait ;)
16:30 < kanzure> some companies have absolutely no problem about waiting the maximum amount of time allowed
16:30 < roksprok> kanzure: elif?
16:31 < yashgaroth> roksprok, won't that print 'fizzbuzzfizzbuzz' for 15?
16:31 < kanzure> yashgaroth: hey that's not fair, he just corrected himself..
16:31 < yashgaroth> also doesn't that else only depend on the one previous if()? I'm not sure
16:31 < kanzure> yes
16:31 < roksprok> 1 if 2 elif
16:33 < roksprok> thanks re: statements/conditionals
16:33 < kanzure> yep.
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16:33 < kanzure> "if statement", "for statement", "for loop", .. best to call it a for loop really
16:33 < kanzure> but it's definitely never an "if loop"
16:33 < yashgaroth> if you moved that first if() down to the bottom and changed the ==s to !=s, that was my approach, but I thought there'd be a method where you don't have to reference i two more times
16:34 < yashgaroth> err, and set that if() to print i
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16:37 < kanzure> yashgaroth: how's your programming knowledge?
16:37 < yashgaroth> I know the principles, I guess...loops, lists, arrays, functions
16:39 < yashgaroth> did c++ in high school and java in uni
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16:43 < yashgaroth> just can't decide between perl and python to learn first
16:43 < kanzure> python.
16:43 < kanzure> perl is nice and efficient but not a beginner's best friend
16:44 < kanzure> s/nice/usually ugly but nice once you tame it
16:44 < yashgaroth> heh fair enough
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16:45 < kanzure> yashgaroth: just saw your email, clearly you have taken the easy way out ("i can make it tomorrow")
16:45 < roksprok> i would second python, it has really good documentation that made things a lot easier to learn
16:46 < yashgaroth> I realized after sending that they won't be replying until tomorrow anyway :/
16:46 < kanzure> yashgaroth: timezones?
16:46 < yashgaroth> and strict federal working hours
16:47 < kanzure> 1 to 2 pm?
16:47 < brownies> perl exists
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16:47 < brownies> i wouldn't add any of kanzure's adjectives to it though
16:47 < kanzure> well, we have a few perl lovers in here
16:47 < kanzure> so i was trying to be politically correct
16:48 < kanzure> note: the perl lovers can permaban me if i'm not careful
16:48 < yashgaroth> all else being equal, I'd go with python since it looks more readable, but it seems like perl is the standard for a lot of the current bioinfo architecture
16:48 < roksprok> would that result in ###hplusroadmap?
16:49 < kanzure> "#hplusroadmap" was destroyed by a freenode sysop because- apparently- subject channels or groups need to exist in "##" channels
16:49 < kanzure> something about "freenode policy"
16:49 < roksprok> yashgaroth: biopython is very good
16:49 < kanzure> yashgaroth: biopython
16:49 < kanzure> damn it
16:50 < kanzure> there are also some silly perl-python bridges that you should never use, but you could
16:51 < yashgaroth> the other bonus is that pymol exists, while perlmol...oh it does technically exist
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16:52 < roksprok> i am out, thanks to everyone for the advice/conversation/if loops don't exist....yashgaroth also python seems to be on the way up, so new resources will come online all the time, and stuff like biopython will keep being maintained and improved
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16:53 < kanzure> perl is also actively maintained, so that's not fair :p
16:53 < kanzure> cpan still dwarfs pypi i think
16:53 < kanzure> and rubygems (possibly. i haven't counted.)
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16:54 < strangewarp> I own a Programming Perl book, from when I aspired to be a Serious Programmer
16:54 < strangewarp> That aspiration left me in a discrete mathematics class
16:54 < kanzure> nothing wrong with that
16:54 < strangewarp> Now I am happy
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17:00 < brownies> math++
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17:49 < ParahSailin> seconded on biopython
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18:28 < kanzure> "A musical umbrella that converts raindrops into 8bit music"
18:30 < JayDugger1> That's precious.
18:31 < Mariu> !
18:31 < Mariu> epic
18:31 < strangewarp> Bet it's connected to a chipsounds VST
18:33 < JayDugger1> Links
18:33 < JayDugger1> http://nukaco.la/projects.html
18:34 < JayDugger1> They took two hours to find a watering can?
18:34 < JayDugger1> Garden hose, anyone?
18:34 < JayDugger1> Collander and pitcher?
18:35 < JayDugger1> http://wiki.musichackday.org/index.php?title=Main_Page
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18:41 < kanzure> i was trying out echonest's api a few weeks ago
18:41 < kanzure> but their terms are a bit restricting
18:41 < kanzure> if you want to make any music-related software that uses libraries or playlist, your only option is to make something illicit and not really connected to your name :\
18:41 < kanzure> *playlists
18:41 < JayDugger1> Why? I really don't know.
18:41 < kanzure> erm, that was all re: musichackday
18:42 < kanzure> JayDugger1: licensing costs
18:42 < JayDugger1> Got it.
18:42 < kanzure> http://www.mndigital.com/services/content-fulfillment.html
18:43 < JayDugger1> At least those people recognize the value of metadata.
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19:10 < strangewarp> Oh, impressive, they hooked it up to LSDJ for non-VST sounds then
19:11 < strangewarp> Wait, no, derp. They didn't. That's what I get for skimming
19:14 < kanzure> a proper punishment for skimming will be the removal of one (1) eyeball
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19:20 < JayDugger1> What mercy!
19:21 < JayDugger1> You could go get an eyeball from any mammal or fish, and even some inveterbrates.
19:22 < JayDugger1> invertebrates, rather
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21:56 < Steel2> AlonzoTG, you around?
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22:22 < kanzure> nmz787: still cooking
22:25 < nmz787> ok
22:25 < nmz787> i have only been brainstormin
22:36 < Mokbortolan_1> those aren't tears
22:36 < Mokbortolan_1> I'm just having a brainstorm
23:10 < kanzure> what are those tripod robots are called that have an arm suspended from the top and can move it to any point in xyz with 3 actuators?
23:11 < kanzure> *robots called
23:11 < kanzure> like http://www.keba.com/typo3temp/pics/04e4431c74.png
23:12 < kanzure> delta robot?
23:13 < kanzure> http://surveys.peerproduction.net/2012/05/manufacturing-in-motion/
23:13 < kanzure> is jarkko's 3d printing survey, summarized
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 01 00:00:27 2012