--- Log opened Tue Jun 26 00:00:06 2012
--- Day changed Tue Jun 26 2012
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01:35 < brownies> isn't research supported by NIH grants supposed to be publicly available?
01:37 < Utopiah> http://aiedam.usc.edu/index.php/SpecialIssues/Vol27No4
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07:28 < nmz787> kanzure what does  triplr have to do with finding free places to camp along roadtrips?
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07:30 < atum> he prolly ment grindr
07:30 < atum> fwiw
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07:31 < nmz787> umm, grindr says its for finding guys
07:31 < Utopiah> CouchSurfing?
07:31 < chido> ..guys who let you sleep on their couch afterwards?
07:32 < nmz787> kanzure asked if there were any projects/apps that could help with roadtrips... and i can generally find free places to sleep, but its not as easy as using google maps is... i.e. i have to look at the maps, find green areas (camping, govt land) and then look for things like mountains/hills (wind break)
07:32 <@kanzure> huh? i thought you were the one who asked that
07:33 <@kanzure> so confused
07:33 < nmz787> me?
07:33 <@kanzure> yeah
07:33 < nmz787> before i left for california you asked if there were any tools that were lacking for roadtripping
07:33 < nmz787> you specifically asked about traffic near big cities
07:33 <@kanzure> i see. well, triplr should have a list of free places to stay anyway.
07:34 < nmz787> but i think a more important/worse problem is finding places to sleep for free
07:34 < nmz787> http://triplr.org/
07:34 < nmz787> ??
07:34 < atum> always sleep at walmart for free
07:34 < atum> national forest
07:35 < atum> find a squat somewhere
07:35 < atum> sleeping under bridges is quite nice
07:35 < atum> if you find the right one
07:36 < nmz787> right, so a nice addon/layover to google maps is something that finds that stuff for you
07:36 <@kanzure> like, say.. padmapper?
07:36 < nmz787> for instance i drove from SF to NY in 3 days, slept twice along the way... once on BLM (govt) land, and once in a rest area in the car
07:37 < atum> blm can be nice too
07:37 < nmz787> if it would have known i only wanted to sleep twice along the way, it would have divided the 45 hour trip by 3, then looked for 2 places along way
07:37 < atum> damn
07:38 < atum> it takes me 3 days to drive across texas
07:38 < nmz787> assuming that the last night was at home, etc
07:38 < nmz787> hah
07:38 < atum> but im in no hurry
07:38 < nmz787> west texas the speed limit is pretty high
07:38 < atum> and i only drive while the suns out
07:38 < atum> so i can kick back at night and relax
07:38 < nmz787> last year i did that drive, along route 8 or 10 with no A/C
07:38 < nmz787> it really sucked
07:38 < atum> so 400miles a day or so
07:39 < atum> its not so bad in the winter
07:39 < atum> :P
07:39 <@kanzure> kernel map http://ernstsson.net/post/25837804958/the-linux-kernel-challenge
07:39 <@kanzure> javascript-based synthesizer http://aikelab.net/websynth/
07:39 < atum> then come back across washington state and drop down a little during summer
07:39 <@kanzure> http://www.countthecosts.org/alternative-world-drug-report "drug war report"
07:40 < atum> lateral snowbirding
07:40 <@kanzure> "Instead, despite more than a trillion dollars spent fighting the war, according to the UNODC, illegal drugs are used by an estimated 270 million people and organised crime profits from a trade with an estimated turnover of over $330 billion a year – the world’s largest illegal commodity market"
07:40 < atum> and who runs that?
07:40 < atum> the Govt's
07:40 < atum> lol
07:40 <@kanzure> "A bit more detail further in the report: "The UNODC estimates, conservatively, that between 155 and 270 million people worldwide, or 3.5% to 5.7% of 15-64-year¬olds, used illicit substances at least once in the last year. Global lifetime usage figures probably approach one billion""
07:40 < atum> the war on drugs is fought because they hate competition
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07:40 <@kanzure> hmm only 270 million people worldwide are on drugs each year? that seems a little low.
07:41 < atum> the cia is still moving cocaine, even after north admitted it to congress
07:41 < atum> i used to live near mena arkansas
07:41 < atum> and its common knowledge after those boys died
07:41 < nmz787> i saw a nice graph years ago of linux vs windows kernel calls
07:41 <@kanzure> procedurally generated webgl tree http://creativejs.com/2012/06/snappytree/
07:41 <@kanzure> lego google maps http://www.buildwithchrome.com/static/map
07:42 <@kanzure> trailer for lego google maps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf2NHdfudyo
07:43 <@kanzure> bah "To show you how much fun this can be, we've created the world's biggest LEGO® set."
07:44 <@kanzure> (let's make a bigger one)
07:44 < nmz787> that is a pretty snappy tree
07:45 < nmz787> the leaves arent 3d though
07:45 < nmz787> no leaves that i've seen on computer games are though
07:45 < nmz787> (i'm sure pixar has 3d leaves)
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08:10 < nmz787> http://iopscience.iop.org/0967-3334/32/6/004/
08:10 < nmz787> Reconstruction of physiological signals using iterative retraining and accumulated averaging of neural network models
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08:14 < nmz787> thanks Texas http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57459357/gm-grass-linked-to-texas-cattle-deaths/
08:14 <@kanzure> "The Special Issue on Mind Uploading (Vol. 4, issue 1, June 2012) of the International Journal of Machine Consciousness, just released, “constitutes a significant milestone in the history of mind uploading research: the first-ever collection of scientific and philosophical papers on the theme of mind uploading"
08:14 <@kanzure> what? there has been no other brain scanning paper collection?
08:15 <@kanzure> well, i guess it's a journal of "consciousness" so it's probably useless
08:15 < nmz787> "Preliminary tests revealed the Tifton 85 grass, which has been here for years, had suddenly started producing cyanide gas, poisoning the cattle."
08:15 < nmz787> wtf
08:16 <@kanzure> yeah, the cyanide thing is weird
08:16 < nmz787> "CORRECTION: As originally published, this story referred to Tifton 85 grass as a genetically-modified product, which is incorrect; it is actually a hybrid of Bermuda grass."
08:17 < nmz787> "An official at the Department of Agriculture told CBS News that there are currently no genetically modified grasses on the market or bring grown for public use or consumption."
08:18 <@kanzure> clinical gene therapy article http://the-scientist.com/2012/06/01/targeting-dna/
08:18 <@kanzure> "Another engineered oncolytic virus nearing clinical approval is OncoVEX, developed by Massachusetts-based biotech BioVex, which last year partnered with Amgen in a deal that could be worth $1 billion. The drug, named last year as one of FierceBiotech’s 10 promising late-stage cancer drugs, is a special strain of the Herpes simplex type 1 (HSV-1) virus that carries an immune-boosting component."
08:21 < nmz787> http://www.oncolyticsbiotech.com/
08:25 < nmz787> how much is fetal genetic testing?
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08:25 < nmz787> does that require IVF to first get enough cells in-vitro to remove some for sequencing??
08:26 < nmz787> if so I guess that's outside of my reach for some years
08:26 < nmz787> i'd rather just keep trying for non-genetically-damaged kids
08:26 < nmz787> (apparently damaged)
08:26 <@kanzure> other interesting stat: i heard the other day that something like 60 million pregnancies have been due to IVF?
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08:28 <@kanzure> "This year's theme is Radical Openness, so of course we had to be part of it. We had dinner in a real castle last night, so we're all prepared for Ellen's TED talk on DIYbio and worldwide community labs during the "Tinker Make Do" session this afternoon, and the Genspace booth where we will have the TEDsters extract and test their DNA, and transform E. coli with pBLU. And the DNA cocktails we're making with strawberries will probably be a hit too. 
08:28 < nmz787> ya
08:29 < nmz787> wouldnt they need that GMO licencse if they're in the EU?
08:29 <@kanzure> i think ecoli might be the one exception (depending on their country)
08:29 < chido> kanzure: 60 million? you mean ever since IVF has been put to use or what?
08:29 < nmz787> thats like 1 percent
08:30 < nmz787> THE 1%!!!!
08:30 <@kanzure> chido: i found it hard to believe
08:30 < chido> I'm curious about the timeframe it refers to
08:30 < nmz787> well that also doesn't mean they were succesful
08:30 < chido> how many there are per year per country would be an interesting statistic
08:30 < chido> including success rate
08:31 <@kanzure> hmmm where did i read this number from
08:31 <@kanzure> "n the US, ART cycles started in 2006 resulted in 41,343 births (54,656 infants), which is slightly more than 1% of total US births."
08:31 <@kanzure> *In the
08:32 <@kanzure> "Robert Edwards was awarded the 2010 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine "for the development of in vitro fertilization".[68] Carl Wood was dubbed "the father of IVF (in vitro fertilisation)" for having pioneered the use of frozen embryos.[69]"
08:32 < chido> no data on Europe I presume
08:32 <@kanzure> "Israel has the highest world incidence of IVF, with 1657 procedures performed per million people per year. The second highest rate is in Iceland, with 899 procedures per million people per year. In the USA 126 procedures are performed per million people per year. Israel provides unlimited free in vitro procedures for its citizens for up to two children per woman under 45 years of age."
08:32 < chido> I don't think 1% is low
08:33 < chido> oh that's interesting
08:33 < chido> cost seems to be factor
08:34 < nmz787> whoa
08:34 < nmz787> i wonder if israel does testing too
08:34 < nmz787> sounds like a good time to visit israel
08:34 < nmz787> !
08:34 < nmz787> :D
08:35 < chido> 3 years in the army, I guess there has to be some perks
08:35 <@kanzure> oh i see, this other article says only 3 million ivf babies since 1978
08:35 <@kanzure> (as of 2006)
08:36 <@kanzure> "This year's data, from the International Committee for Monitoring Assisted Reproductive Technologies (ICMART), includes reports from 52 countries, and covers almost 600,000 IVF cycles and 122,000 newborn babies. "
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08:44 < nmz787> http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120626005521/en/Citizen-Scientists-Win-Bay-Area-Open-Science
08:44 < nmz787> Ryan Bethencourt and Derek Jacoby won the Assay Depot challenge
08:44 < nmz787> kind of a letdown
08:45 < nmz787> i thought some 14 year old kids would get it
08:47 <@kanzure> well, at least it's someone we know
08:48 <@kanzure> derek is doing biospace.ca and ryan is doing.. well, i think he's doing his alzheimer's non-profit thig?
08:48 <@kanzure> *thing
08:48 <@kanzure> oh, als
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08:48 <@kanzure> oh he's calling it 'halpin neurosciences'
08:49 <@kanzure> weird that it doesn't mention DTRA in that article.. hrmmm
08:52 < nmz787> better than error 404: http://www.webmonkey.com/2012/06/error-451-this-page-has-been-burned/
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09:27 <@kanzure> "A member of another hackerspace and I have been diligently working on a resistor based thermocycler that's arduino controlled.  Its in the final stages of testing now, total cost is ~$50-75 depending on the arduino and how fancy you want to get with the details."
09:27 <@kanzure> "It has a wood laser cut box, and the block is milled out of a 1X3X3" block of aluminum, cooling is via a simple PC fan, heating is by resistors powered through an SSR with 120V AC so there's no bulky/expensive power supply needed."
09:27 <@kanzure> "It runs 3 minutes per complete PCR cycle(you usually run 12-40 cycles in a full reaction).  If there's interest I can work on getting another demo model built to show off at our hackerspace."
09:27 < nmz787> who where
09:28 <@kanzure> that was via Matt C.M. <mcmancuso@gmail.com>
09:31 < nmz787> what hackerspace?
09:31 < nmz787> atxhs?
09:31 < nmz787> wtf is that?
09:31 <@kanzure> austin hackerspace
09:31 <@kanzure> austin, texas (atx)
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09:38 <@kanzure> nmz787: i think he might have meant it has 40 wells?
09:38 <@kanzure> not 40 cycles in 3min
09:39 < nmz787> " PCR cycle(you usually run 12-40 cycles in a full reaction)"
09:40 < nmz787> " It runs 3 minutes per complete PCR cycle(you usually run 12-40 cycles in a full reaction)."
09:40 < nmz787> ooo
09:40 < nmz787> 3 minutes per cycle
09:40 < nmz787> shit
09:40 < nmz787> i flamed him
09:40 < nmz787> :(
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09:54 < nmz787> kanzure texmaker is saying it can't find a .cls file
09:55 < nmz787> i think its complaining about this line \documentclass[margin,line]{resume}
09:56 < nmz787> the cls file is in the same dir as the tex file
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10:08 <@kanzure> nmz787: not sure how to fix that, my tex-fu is weak at the moment.
10:11 < nmz787> damnit, i just need to delete two lines from my resume
10:11 < nmz787> gah
10:11 < nmz787> looking for electronics/soldering jobs here
10:11 < nmz787> i can't get focused to rewrite the JBEI app I made last summer
10:11 < nmz787> and I can't keep being a bum
10:14 < nmz787> i really don't want to go and play car mechanic, nor do I want some stuffy lab job... need something interesting and relaxed
10:14 < nmz787> :/
10:14 <@kanzure> soooftware
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10:19 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, soldering?... like manually??
10:19 < ThomasEgi> in production?
10:19 < nmz787> sure, whatev
10:20 < ThomasEgi> ahm.. .. does that even exist?
10:20 < ThomasEgi> i mean unless you are hobbyist or prototyping in a lab
10:21 <@kanzure> nmz787: i think you would be severely underemployed just soldering
10:22 < ThomasEgi> besides. modern circuits can hardly be soldered by hand. parts are just too tiny
10:22 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: smt parts + microscope?
10:22 < ThomasEgi> pick and place robots
10:22 <@kanzure> yeah but he wants to do it himself
10:23 <@kanzure> (apparently)
10:23 < ThomasEgi> it is not fun
10:23 < ThomasEgi> personal experience.
10:23 < ThomasEgi> i did solder boards for 2 days straight
10:23 < nmz787> huh?
10:23 < ThomasEgi> it plain sux.
10:23 < nmz787> EE companies do rework all the time
10:23 < ThomasEgi> a few hours per day is ok
10:23 < nmz787> and soldering up some simple stuff then going to test is routine
10:24 < ThomasEgi> "simple" :D
10:24 < nmz787> i used to work here and it was great :http://www.d3engineering.com/
10:25 < nmz787> i was the only biologist there... but i was still able to hold my own
10:25 < ThomasEgi> looks like you found one lucky place to work then
10:25 <@kanzure> to my knowledge, there's not a 'natural fit' job for your whole skillset nathan
10:26 < ThomasEgi> companies like that really aren't too common. and open jobs even less so
10:26 <@kanzure> but maybe that just means you should make that exist
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10:26 < ThomasEgi> +1 for creating the job you want to do. can be difficult do. but worth a try
10:27 <@kanzure> it's the same thing for bio grads
10:27 <@kanzure> your options are research, or minimum wage pipetting things around
10:27 < nmz787> well i didnt come to biotech school to be a biotech bitch
10:27 <@kanzure> right
10:27 < nmz787> so toss that
10:28 < yashgaroth> it's...slightly more than minimum wage
10:28 < nmz787> long summer camp was how i went into it
10:28 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: $7.25/hour vs. 11.25/hour isn't a big deal to me
10:28 <@kanzure> nmz787: i'm not saying you should be a lab bitch. i'm just saying that nobody else wants to either. so if you come up with something else, you can have your pick of who you want to work with.
10:29 <@kanzure> e.g. maybe the actual price for a biotech bitch is really $200/hour, not $12.85/hour
10:29 <@kanzure> how would you get to that point?
10:29 < ThomasEgi> selling a product/service that does not exist yet but people are desperate to get hands on.
10:30 <@kanzure> maybe.
10:30 <@kanzure> i'm a little surprised that there's no biotech bitch union
10:30 <@kanzure> i wonder if researchers have unionized in any of the socialist countries
10:32 <@kanzure> i don't see anything in the search results.
10:33 < yashgaroth> I doubt it
10:33 <@kanzure> http://www.ileu.org/ "The Independent Laboratory Employees Union is a small, independent, labor union. We represent the FLSA covered workers at the ExxonMobil Research and Engineering Co., located in Annandale, NJ."
10:34 <@kanzure> "“We’ve offered Lab workers 8.5% over three years with a pay scale from $45,000 to $56,000 for entry level scientists – experienced staff will earn considerably more. In addition, they will get automatic annual increments that average around 2% a year. What we’re asking for in return is some rostering flexibility."
10:34 <@kanzure> but this seems to be a medical lab-related union in new zealand.
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10:35 < yashgaroth> how do you reconcile unions with massive yearly layoffs, or BSs competing with PhDs for jobs
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10:35 < Mokbortolan_> nice
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10:35 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: i'm just curious if they exist, i dunno if it would improve the situation
10:35 < Mokbortolan_> union scientists
10:35 < yashgaroth> I think people who go into clinical lab science might have a union
10:36 < yashgaroth> but that's running hospital assays...they do get paid well
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10:37 < yashgaroth> I dunno if it'd improve the situation...I don't want my theoretical job to be on the line because most people in the field are bad at their jobs
10:38 <@kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i dunno if a science strike would work
10:38 <@kanzure> let's get all scientists to strike until elsevier converts all their issues to open access?
10:39 <@kanzure> i mean, that will just mean that NIH would give grants to whoever submits grants.. which will probably be everyone, because they would think nobody else is submitting
10:41 <@kanzure> and, to some extent, nothing terrible happens if scientists go on strike for a week or two
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10:50 < Mokbortolan_> Hah.. "You won't get a single study out of us until we get paid maternity leave!"
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10:51 < ThomasEgi> strikes.. doesn't that only work if you either ruin your company or pissing off customers?
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10:52 < ThomasEgi> i mean. without you have no pressure on the higher ups
10:52 <@kanzure> yeh it's almost like a "favor" that these guys get paid $8/hour to pipette things.. haha. that's not a favor!
10:54 < nmz787> i want paternity leave
11:03 <@kanzure> i wonder if a science union could provide guaranteed grants
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11:10 <@kanzure> why doesn't china just buy american scientists?
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11:11 < ThomasEgi> because they send their students to germany to get free education ^
11:11 < ThomasEgi> and then have their own scientists
11:15 < nmz787> germany gives china free schooling?
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12:04 <@kanzure> what a peculiar wikipedia article
12:04 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_investigation#The_New_Science_of_Post-Flashover_Burning
12:04 <@kanzure> "These investigators set up two rooms, simple 12 by 14 foot bedrooms, set each of them on fire, and allowed them to burn for about two minutes after they flashed over. They then asked 53 participants in a Las Vegas IAAI-sponsored fire investigation seminar to walk through the burned compartments and to write down the quadrant in which they believed the fire had originated."
12:04 <@kanzure> "In the first compartment, three participants identified the correct quadrant. When the exercise was repeated on the second compartment, three different participants identified the correct quadrant."
12:04 <@kanzure> "These results caused much consternation, particularly as ATF agents began presenting the results to groups of investigators. The bottom line was “The “old-days” of locating the point of origin of a post-flashover fire by relying on the “lowest burn and deepest char” are OVER![12]"
12:04 <@kanzure> "When word of the ATF experiments reached the fire investigation community, people began to examine the data more closely, because an error rate over 90% was simply unimaginable! In fact, the poor results should have surprised nobody. Carman reports that in the undocumented tests at Glynnco, the success rate was 8 to 10%.[13"
12:07 < nmz787> how did you get on that?
12:07 <@kanzure> got bored waiting for my ruby console to boot up (78 seconds, woot)
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13:09 < Mokbortolan_> ThomasEgi: were you the fellow that gave me that tDCS schematic a while bacjk?
13:11 < Mokbortolan_> http://jasonlefkowitz.net/2007/06/bring_a_change/
13:11 < Mokbortolan_> Alli ~ Olestra
13:13 <@kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i know a david lefkowitz.. related?
13:13 <@kanzure> - David Lefkowitz <dlefkowitz@gmail.com>: [opencures, the-vegas-project, papers, longevity, stem cells, rocket science]
13:13 <@kanzure> he also went to singularity summit
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13:23 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: so all these merck salaries look like they are >$60,000 to me
13:23 < yashgaroth> need more context
13:23 <@kanzure> like on glassdoor.com
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13:23 < yashgaroth> for RA positions?
13:24 <@kanzure> wizzrobe: hi
13:24 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: no for research positions
13:24 < wizzrobe> hi
13:24 < yashgaroth> right but like experience levels, education etc
13:25 < wizzrobe> in what way  are we impeded from  DIY-BIO   because of  bizarre restrictions on ordering lab equipment through the mail?
13:25 < brownies> nmz787: how many papers have you published
13:25 < brownies> kanzure and i DEMAND ANSWERS
13:25 <@kanzure> haha
13:25 <@kanzure> wizzrobe: if you are impeded in that manner, then you should just build the equipment yourself (fuck the mail)
13:25 < yashgaroth> wizzrobe: not so much equipment as reagents
13:26 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: my point is that, it's not well illustrated that all these biotech jobs are low paying
13:26 < yashgaroth> oh they're not always...entry level with a BS is 40k+, entry level postdoc is 80
13:26 < yashgaroth> err, post-postdoc
13:27 < yashgaroth> that's industry though, academic is at least a third less
13:27 < nmz787> brownies: none in journals
13:27 <@kanzure> postdoc is 4 years BS, 3-5 years PhD, 2-4 years postdoc, right?
13:28 < yashgaroth> approximately, yeah
13:28 < brownies> PhD in 3 years? good god
13:28 < yashgaroth> if you're not a fan of sleep, sure
13:28 <@kanzure> that's the "hooray my experiments worked the first time" version
13:28 < nmz787> i was makin almost 40k at that electrical engi company i was talking about earlier
13:28 < nmz787> 2 years ago
13:29 < nmz787> and i coulda kept workin there, except i "had to" go back to school
13:29 <@kanzure> 40k is not that great for such a high-skills job
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13:29 < nmz787> for what i was doing, it was comfortable
13:29 < brownies> so now you've graduated
13:29 < brownies> and you have job offers?
13:29 < nmz787> me?
13:29 <@kanzure> (but i guess 40k is good for an intro job with no degree or experience)
13:30 < brownies> yup
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13:30 < nmz787> i was friggin workin on state of the art drug infusion pumps
13:30 < nmz787> me!
13:30 < brownies> sounds cool!
13:31 <@kanzure> nmz787: i was trying to use you as an example to brownies about the state of low-paying biotech jobs
13:31 <@kanzure> so he's asking what sorta offers you've received or how many interviews
13:31 <@kanzure> but, on the other hand, all the merck job salaries i see listed are >$60k which is not what i expected (but i don't see degree requirements; for 10 years of education, $80k sounds crummy)
13:32 < brownies> i'm sticking to my claim that PhD => 100k+ salary unless i see multiple data points showing a counterexample trend
13:32 < brownies> *in the private sector
13:33 < yashgaroth> plus a few years of experience, you might get near there at a large company
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13:34 < nmz787> i'm tethering and my internet doesn't work when i take a call
13:34 < yashgaroth> small biotech also pays less because they can give you stock which maaaay be worth a lot of money
13:35 < nmz787> offers?
13:35 < nmz787> well i still have a job at a national lab here, as a student appointment
13:35 < nmz787> no offers
13:35 < nmz787> i haven't been job hunting too much though because i didn't know where i would end up
13:35 <@kanzure> ah
13:35 < nmz787> and i figure i could just do this bioinformatics at $13/hour
13:36 < nmz787> until i found one
13:36 < nmz787> i had an interview here in manhattan at cornell med and they said the minimum they would pay was $34.6k or something
13:37 < nmz787> sooo 2 years ago at the EE company i was already on par with that
13:37 < brownies> ahh, well, if you're at a national research lab or fancy academic institution or something, then there's some value to just having that brand on your resume
13:37 < brownies> presumably it would let you publish more papers and such things
13:37 < yashgaroth> 35k in manhattan? that seems really low
13:37 <@kanzure> manhattan is supposed to have *higher* salaries
13:37 < nmz787> the only job offer i've had this year was from a car mechanic when i took my car there and was telling him the problem and the recent work i did to it
13:37 < brownies> ...yeah, you don't want to live in manhattan making 35k.
13:38 < nmz787> i've seen tons of craiglist bio jobs offering $28k
13:38 <@kanzure> what.. 28?
13:38 < nmz787> thats rent and ramen
13:38 < yashgaroth> for dishwashing maybe
13:38 < nmz787> nop
13:38 <@kanzure> not dishwashing? then what?
13:38 < brownies> maybe you should not look for bioengineering jobs on craigslist -_-
13:38 <@kanzure> show me a link
13:38 < nmz787> for PCR, nucleic extractions
13:38 < brownies> for manual labor, basically?
13:38 < yashgaroth> ehh most jobs get posted on CL, but I'd recommend biospace
13:39 <@kanzure> brownies: highly trained manual labor ;)
13:39 < nmz787> what else is most of biotech other than labor??
13:39 < brownies> research. science. inventing things.
13:39 < nmz787> if you're not a PhD in most biotech, you're not supposed to think too much
13:39 < yashgaroth> not always true, but almost always
13:39 < brownies> i wandered into a biotech lab as a college freshman and all they told me was "invent a solution to this, see you in 3 months"
13:39 < brownies> ^ granted, that was a horrible experience, since i had no idea what i was doing.
13:39 <@kanzure> was that your test to see if they wanted to let you join their lab?
13:39 < yashgaroth> like, a programming solution?
13:39 < nmz787> sure, that was in your school
13:40 < brownies> it was a summer research thing
13:40 < brownies> no, it was for a lab in the same town as my school
13:40 < nmz787> it wasn't their money
13:40 < brownies> private outfit though
13:40 < nmz787> oh
13:40 < nmz787> maybe it was their money
13:40 < brownies> anyway, point is (among other points...) that job never made it to craigslist
13:41 < nmz787> sure, neither did the sweet job at the EE company
13:41 < nmz787> actually, all the jobs i've had in the last 6-8 years have been through networking
13:41 < brownies> yashgaroth: it took me like a month of reading to find out they had given me a well-known unsolved problem in fluid mechanics and drug coating. those bastards.
13:42 < nmz787> i got the national lab job by posting to DIYBIO google group
13:42 < yashgaroth> haha
13:42 < nmz787> ok g2g, will check logs in an hour or so
13:43 < yashgaroth> again I'd recommend biospace.com for job listings
13:43 <@kanzure> just think union
13:43 < yashgaroth> also send your resume into the big recruiting agencies
13:43 < brownies> haha
13:45 <@kanzure> well let's see.. how many bio undergrads finish each year? 2000 per college? let's say 100 colleges. so 200,000 additional workers per year that could potentially go into biotech jobs.
13:45 <@kanzure> (not all do, obviously)
13:45 <@kanzure> i guess that's only a few billion dollars in salaries, i think the biotech industry could support that
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14:36 <@kanzure> http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/06/25/help-us-shape-our-strategy-intellectual-property-enforcement
14:36 <@kanzure> they usually include all emails you send in a giant pdf
14:36 <@kanzure> so at the very least you can get in a troll face or something
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15:40 < nmz787> well i just broke biospace.com
15:40 < nmz787> :P
15:41 < nmz787> or their search is broken or something
15:41 < yashgaroth> yeah the search is a little wonky if you try too much at once
15:41 < nmz787> "new york city" is too much?
15:42 < nmz787> Server Error in '/' Application.
15:42 < nmz787> Runtime ErrorDescription: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine. 
15:42 < nmz787> Details: To enable the details of this specific error message to be viewable on remote machines, please create a <customErrors> tag within a "web.config" configuration file located in the root directory of the current web application. This <customErrors> tag should then have its "mode" attribute set to "Off".
15:42 < nmz787>  <!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->  <configuration>     <system.web>         <customErrors mode="Off"/>     </system.web> </configuration>
15:42 < nmz787> Notes: The current error page you are seeing can be replaced by a custom error page by modifying the "defaultRedirect" attribute of the application's <customErrors> configuration tag to point to a custom error page URL.
15:42 < nmz787>  <!-- Web.Config Configuration File -->  <configuration>     <system.web>         <customErrors mode="RemoteOnly" defaultRedirect="mycustompage.htm"/>     </system.web> </configuration>
15:42 < yashgaroth> oh god what have you done
15:42 < nmz787> kanzure: ATTACK!
15:42 < yashgaroth> try using a zip code or something
15:42 < nmz787> yeah
15:42 < nmz787> ooo, nope
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15:44 < brownies> seems to work for me.
15:44 < nmz787> wtf
15:44 < nmz787> did you use a keyword?
15:45 < yashgaroth> new york city works for me as a search...not that there's any biotech in the city
15:45 < nmz787> ahh, now its working
15:46 < nmz787> yeah nothing around NYC
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15:47 < nmz787> psh, craigslist has more hits than this site
15:47 < yashgaroth> well it's still the defacto site
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15:47 < nmz787> even less in portland OR
15:47 < nmz787> cool, yeah i don't think i've heard of it
15:48 < yashgaroth> it's good for industry news and such
15:48 < yashgaroth> that canadian guy at the conference who started biospace.ca had somehow never heard of biospace.com, I was like wtf
15:48 <@kanzure> nmz787: i don't do iis ;)
15:48 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: biospace.com looks like spam
15:48 < nmz787> whats a good 'cool coffee shop' finder site, or should i just use yelp/googlemaps?
15:49 < yashgaroth> well it ain't
15:49 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: are you sure?
15:49 < nmz787> how can you tell
15:49 < nmz787> one man's trash is another man's spam
15:49 < yashgaroth> because many people I know find jobs through it
15:49 <@kanzure> well let's see..
15:49 <@kanzure> 1) iis
15:49 <@kanzure> 2) design is from 1995
15:49 <@kanzure> 3) ads
15:49 < yashgaroth> a: biologists
15:50 <@kanzure> Therefore, nobody cares about this web property, they aren't making money, and it's probably just spam.
15:50 <@kanzure> i doubt biologists made this website
15:50 < yashgaroth> yeah but biologists don't know what iis is so they don't care
15:50 <@kanzure> look at all the terrible javascript on the page
15:50 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: the tools that you use for your job will strongly indicate what sort of quality you have
15:50 < nmz787> iis???
15:50 <@kanzure> iis means "corporate whore"
15:51 <@kanzure> nmz787: those looked like aspx errors to me
15:51 <@kanzure> so i am assuming iis
15:51 <@kanzure> it might be some java thing
15:51 <@kanzure> but all their links are .aspx... so, iis
15:51 < yashgaroth> fuck man I dunno
15:51 <@kanzure> it's a microsoft server product
15:52 < nmz787> ah
15:52 < nmz787> sounds like something some scientists would use bc they dont know better
15:54 < Mokbortolan_> uhh
15:54 < Mokbortolan_> what's wrong with IIS again?
15:56 < nmz787> kanzure: says its microsoft
15:56 < nmz787> which is enough for me to bash it without knowing much else
15:56 < Mokbortolan_> ahh, yeah
15:57 < Mokbortolan_> it's a tool to do a job
15:57 < Mokbortolan_> silly OS tribalism is silly
15:58 < nmz787> lol
15:59 < nmz787> i use windows now just cuz it has all the tablet pc features and onenote (notebook software)
15:59 < yashgaroth> I use it because vidjagames
15:59 < nmz787> gaymz
15:59 < yashgaroth> *
16:00 <@kanzure> Mokbortolan_: you don't get to talk because you're a microsoft monkey :P
16:00 < nmz787> so you get through any interviews yet yashgaroth?
16:00 < nmz787> Mokbortolan_: are you a portlander?
16:00 <@kanzure> yes
16:00 < yashgaroth> had 3 or 4, got another next week
16:02 <@kanzure> Mokbortolan_: i think stackoverflow is executed pretty well on iis. but iis + ads + all these other indicators => might give you more clues about who makes this site and how to judge its quality.
16:05 < Mokbortolan_> nmz787: I am indeed
16:05 < nmz787> oh cool
16:05 < Mokbortolan_> yeah, I think IIS should really only be used when you absolutely have to use it :p
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16:05 < nmz787> my gf is interviewing on phone with intel in hillsboro right now
16:05 < nmz787> so we might end up out there
16:06 < Mokbortolan_> that is, if you are forced to use activex, VB.net, AD integration, or other such stuffs
16:06 < Mokbortolan_> nice!
16:06 < Mokbortolan_> well, Portland is awesome
16:06 < Mokbortolan_> Hillsboro is.... kind of boring.
16:06 < Mokbortolan_> and the commute is crap between the two unless you take the max, then it's just long.
16:07 < nmz787> is hillsboro, hilly?
16:07 < Mokbortolan_> not really
16:07 < nmz787> :(
16:07 < Mokbortolan_> it's past a big hill
16:07 < nmz787> i like hills
16:07 < Mokbortolan_> there are some sloping hills
16:07 < nmz787> yeah i dunno where we'd live
16:07 < Mokbortolan_> but the hilly bits are between portland and hillsboring
16:08 < Mokbortolan_> it depends, how rich are you ?:p
16:08 < nmz787> umm
16:08 < nmz787> not
16:08 < Mokbortolan_> a 2bd 1ba in a semi-crummy neighborhood is costing us $1200
16:09 < Mokbortolan_> we just moved out of an 800sqft 2bd1ba apartment that was $800
16:09 < Mokbortolan_> we're on east side, near Powell and 60th now, the apartment was at 20th and Burnside
16:09 < nmz787> hmm
16:09 < Mokbortolan_> that's Portland, of course
16:09 < nmz787> cheaper than nyc or sf
16:09 < Mokbortolan_> NW portland is more trendy with bars and such, but very crowded
16:09 < Mokbortolan_> oh yeah
16:10 <@kanzure> 845sqft 2bd2ba apartment $830/mo here.
16:10 < Mokbortolan_> you can always live downtown, tha'ts fun
16:10 <@kanzure> (you guys can start hating me now)
16:10 < nmz787> so she thinks she did well, gonna hear back this week hopefully
16:10 < Mokbortolan_> cool
16:10 < Mokbortolan_> there's a guy in #reddit-portland who just got a job there
16:10 < nmz787> if so she'll have an onsite on the fri 13th
16:10 < Mokbortolan_> he moved up from somewherein Texas
16:11 < nmz787> and i think i'll fly out with her
16:11 < nmz787> so maybe we can meetup that weekend
16:11 < Mokbortolan_> where are you guys now?
16:11 < nmz787> nyc
16:11 < Mokbortolan_> hehehe, it's a little slower than NYC, I think :p
16:11 < Mokbortolan_> and we don't drive ANYTHING like new york drivers
16:12 < nmz787> well, it took me an hour to drive 11 miles yesterday
16:12 < Mokbortolan_> you know those guys who dart in and out and accelerate and brake rapidly?
16:12 < Mokbortolan_> we don't do that
16:12 < nmz787> so i'm not too thrilled with the 'liveliness'
16:12 < Mokbortolan_> well, sometimes drivers from LA come up here and do that, but they get pulled over
16:13 < nmz787> lol
16:14 < nmz787> is it sunny or cloudy mostly?
16:16 < Mokbortolan_> It depnds
16:16 < Mokbortolan_> you get some sun and sky for a few weeks in the summer
16:17 < Mokbortolan_> but the rest of the time it's overcast and drizzly
16:17 < yashgaroth> coffee, alcohol and/or heroin are recommended until you get used to it
16:17 < Mokbortolan_> the upshot is that the really hot weather (~95F) only lasts a week or two, same with the really cold weather
16:17 < nmz787> oh
16:17 < nmz787> damn
16:17 < nmz787> i like sun
16:17 < Mokbortolan_> now, Hillsboro is different
16:17 < nmz787> wiki says its the most fertile valley in the world or something
16:18 < nmz787> shit cant grow without that red and blue
16:18 < Mokbortolan_> heheheh
16:18 < yashgaroth> the light's there, it's just...diffuse
16:18 < Mokbortolan_> I wouldn't invest in solar panels on my house in Portland, but I might in Hillsboro
16:18 < Mokbortolan_> the beach is about 1.5hrs away
16:19 < Mokbortolan_> and it's usually about 20F cooler
16:19 < Mokbortolan_> it'll be 70F in the dead of summer
16:19 < nmz787> hmm, sounds like SF
16:19 < Mokbortolan_> hmm
16:19 < Mokbortolan_> not like SF
16:19 < nmz787> but without the eastbay or livermore (the latter being almost desert)
16:20 < Mokbortolan_> the wind makes it pretty chilly sometimes
16:20 < Mokbortolan_> very windy up here
16:20 < nmz787> i was reading about chinook winds
16:20 < Mokbortolan_> the air may be 70F, but when it's moving at 10mph, you won't feel like you're in SF
16:20 < nmz787> going from like -54F to 45F in a minute or something (that was a record)
16:23 <@kanzure> they are embalming lonesome george?
16:23 <@kanzure> i wonder if i could just buy him and have me some tasty, tasty turtle soup
16:24 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: october 29-31 is some stem cell thing in la jolla
16:24 < yashgaroth> link?
16:24 <@kanzure> some CIRM-related symposium
16:24 <@kanzure> hhh
16:24 <@kanzure> uhh
16:24 < yashgaroth> nm I'll check their site
16:24 <@kanzure> http://stemcellmeetingonthemesa.com/
16:24 <@kanzure> also, wtf you're in san diego?
16:25 <@kanzure> why aren't you going to the weekly GRG meetings
16:25 <@kanzure> oh, those are in LA. that would be a good reason why.
16:25 <@kanzure> ok. catastrophe avoided.
16:25 < yashgaroth> I was considering it, until I saw that guy from there raving about the flu or some bullshit
16:25 < yashgaroth> also yeah LA
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16:28 < Mokbortolan_> but yeah, if you guys come up lemme know and we'll get a beer or somesuch
16:29 < Mokbortolan_> though I'm afraid I'm not too exciting, being fully employed and a father of two :p
16:30 < nmz787> ok
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16:30 < nmz787> ya we'll prob come for the weekend
16:30 < nmz787> if so could we sleep on your floor (sleeping bags), or in a tent in your yard or something?
16:30 < nmz787> i think intel would prob only pay for 1 night of hotel
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16:34 <@kanzure> nmz787: you should stay with jrayhawk
16:34 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: this is what you get for being friendly to people
16:34 < nmz787> i'll have to ask him about it
16:35 < nmz787> jrayhawk: kanzure says i should ask you to stay for a few nights, couch, floor, treehouse, etc
16:37 < n_bentha> i call treehouse!
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17:42 <@kanzure> pasky: where can i find documentation about what environment variables are available during certain git hooks? :(
17:45 < pasky> umm.. :)
17:47 < pasky> i don't think there's anything better than running export in the hook and looking at what you have there
17:47 < pasky> you can look up the meaning in git(1)
17:49 < pasky> btw i did what i need with pokemon yellow, it was the same kind of structure just at different offset... my mistake was just that i thought the pokemon ids were in the pokedex numbering, didn't realize there is another internal numbering
17:49 <@kanzure> yes i hate the two different numbering systems
17:49 <@kanzure> they should have picked just one.
18:07 <@kanzure> hrmm git 1.7 doesn't seem to respect pre-push and post-push hooks
18:07 <@kanzure> http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/git/2008/8/19/2996404
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18:13 <@kanzure> i want to make a linkedin profile with a markov chain bot. it should be an aggregate of all the other linkedin profiles.
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18:21 < Mokbortolan_> has anybody ever heard of the "journal of bioelectricity"?
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18:22 < Mokbortolan_> was reading this: http://www.aehf.com/articles/em_sensitive.html
18:23 < yashgaroth> oh dear
18:31 < ParahSailin__> that weird data structure with the 40bit pointers to save space, for some reason when i tried to replicate that, all of the 64 bit pointers i was getting were greater than 0xff x 2**32
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18:35 < jmil> kanzure: paper will be out on sunday
18:35 <@kanzure> wasn't that the story like two years ago :P
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18:38 < jmil> yup
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18:39 < jmil> but now it's been agreed to as true by an unknown cadre of specialists
18:39 < jmil> and it's clearly distinct from bioprinting
18:40 < jmil> so that helps too :D
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18:42 < jmil> kanzure: where should i publicize it?
18:43 < jmil> openhardware mailing list?
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18:46 < nmz787> Mokbortolan_: i've been reading a lot and collecting a lot of papers re: EMF of freqs less than THz
18:47 <@kanzure> jmil: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio
18:47 < nmz787> seems like ELF (extremely low freq) actually does something
18:47 < jmil> ok diybio would be cool
18:47 < nmz787> and the people with chemical sensitivity also report a higher response to EMF
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18:47 < jmil> kanzure: one problem i see is that the paper will not be a free download from the journal site. what do you suggest?
18:48 < nmz787> if you're an author you can provide a link from your site
18:48 < nmz787> because you own some rights, or so I remember
18:49 <@kanzure> jmil: it's okay, i'll steal it for them
18:49 < jmil> ok i guess we will do that
18:49 < jmil> thx both of you
18:50 < jmil> kanzure: i can send to you directly
18:50 < jmil> i want to wrap it up nicely into a single pdf (paper + supporting information)
18:51 < nmz787> i think there are some linux tools to help with that
18:51 <@kanzure> jmil: neat, i'd like that
18:51 <@kanzure> also schematics :3
18:51 < jmil> naw...
18:51 < jmil> schematics will go up on thingiverse :D
18:52 < jmil> i'm trying to time everything correctly but there's a lot to do to tell the story properly
18:52 < jmil> i make a big deal of the open source aspect of all things in the paper
18:52 < jmil> any journalists that like that stuff?
18:53 <@kanzure> you should just write the article for them
18:53 <@kanzure> then send it to a few
18:54 <@kanzure> i don't think thingiverse is a good idea
18:54 <@kanzure> how about github?
18:54 <@kanzure> i think this is you http://github.com/jmil
18:54 < jmil> ya that's me
18:55 < jmil> i got my firmware up there already
18:55 < jmil> modified reprap firmware
18:55 <@kanzure> how about the models?
18:55 < jmil> modified reprap parts?
18:55 <@kanzure> yeah
18:55 <@kanzure> instead of using thingiverse.
18:56 < jmil> i'd have to start a new repo but i don't plan to update them because i've already moved on to an aluminum extrusion design for the new printer i'm using daily now
18:56 <@kanzure> then you should include those revisions in the git repo :)
18:56 <@kanzure> that's what git is for
18:56 < jmil> http://www.youtube.com/user/jrdnmlr
18:56 < jmil> github complains the repo is too big
18:56 < jmil> is gitorious any better?
18:57 <@kanzure> gitorious.org is pretty lame, in my opinion
18:57 <@kanzure> how big is the repo? i can host it on diyhpl.us/cgit if necessary
18:57 < jmil> what is better than github?
18:58 <@kanzure> well, i mean, i can provide more space on diyhpl.us than github allows you
18:58 < jmil> oh cool, thanks. we can also host it on the server in lab, but i think a main git hub type place would be faster for people around the world since it gets mirrored out so far and wide by those guys
18:58 < jmil> you never know who will be interested
18:58 <@kanzure> how large is the repository?
18:59 < jmil> kanzure: i guess a gig or something. i'm kinda a hoarder… so all my designs, even failed ones, i keep around in folders
18:59 <@kanzure> i see
19:00 <@kanzure> well, i have that space, and i think github should accomodate a gig btw
19:00 <@kanzure> but i might be wrong
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19:01 < jmil> github is infinite space but they always balk at u if you go over the allotted tiny space
19:02 <@kanzure> hrm
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19:03 <@kanzure> well okay. should i go ahead and make the repo?
19:03 <@kanzure> i think i still have your public key
19:03 < jmil> naw don't worry about it just yet
19:03 < jmil> thanks though
19:04 < jmil> i gotta see what i have and what i can publish
19:04 < jmil> (check with the boss)
19:04 <@kanzure> "nothing"
19:04 <@kanzure> :(
19:06 < jmil> lol
19:06 < jmil> i'm thinking the designs we used to collect the data for the paper are fair game
19:06 < jmil> my newer stuff is prolly off limits
19:07 < jmil> it's really just a simple syringe extruder and a couple of mods to the reprap frame to accomodate it
19:07 < jmil> the secret sauce is what's coming out of the extruder
19:10 < jmil> kanzure: u think i should try to sell the extruder?
19:10 < jmil> i think food people might be the first to want it
19:11 < jmil> it does sugar and chocolate
19:11 < nmz787> :)
19:11 <@kanzure> weren't the fab@home people doing chocolate a few years ago?
19:11 < jmil> it's heated, so it does REAL sugar and chocolate. not shitty icing like other people
19:11 < jmil> room temp. liquid chocolate is terrible tasting
19:11 < jmil> it's not a good solid chocolate
19:12 <@kanzure> i don't know who would buy one, but as long as it's still an open project i don't see any harm to selling kits/things
19:13 < jmil> ok cool
19:13 <@kanzure> 3d printed chocolate models might be a thing
19:14 < nmz787> totally
19:15 < nmz787> choco DNA helix
19:15 < nmz787> bam
19:15 < nmz787> fat kid legos
19:15 < nmz787> hot gummi bear gelatin goo?
19:15 < nmz787> oOo
19:15 < jmil> sure
19:15 < jmil> my main extrudate is mostly sugar
19:16 <@kanzure> "extrudate".. yep you're definitely a biologist
19:16 < jmil> lol
19:18 < jmil> kanzure: do u have journalist credentials?
19:18 <@kanzure> yes i've published some papers
19:18 < nmz787> i reviewed an article or two for a microbiology engineering journal once
19:18 < jmil> oh i mean in regards to a press embargo
19:18 < nmz787> i might still have login creds
19:19 <@kanzure> jmil: i know some journalists, sure.. i suggest submitting to makezine (dale doughertry or ptorrone),
19:19 < jmil> they told us today we can start talking to press about the paper since it will come out sunday as long as they are under press embargo until sunday
19:19 <@kanzure> submitting to the genspace journalist guy (daniel grushkin)
19:19 < jmil> kanzure: maybe i can send to u directly for your constructive criticism if you promise not to share it
19:19 <@kanzure> sure
19:19 <@kanzure> okay.
19:20 < jmil> then we have a week or two until penn does their own press release
19:20 <@kanzure> the makezine guy is probably your best bet for getting publicity drummed up
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19:20 < jmil> ok cool
19:20 < jmil> penn's release i spent a lot of time on getting the technical details and other interesting tidbits just right, so i want to wait until that comes out before i start drumming things up
19:20 <@kanzure> boingboing also likes to publish this sorta stuff
19:20 < jmil> that will help everyone
19:20 < jmil> with their release
19:21 < jmil> ooh boingboing would be great
19:21 < jmil> u just post on boingboing or what?
19:21 <@kanzure> there's a submission form
19:21 <@kanzure> dan grushkin <dgrushkin@genspace.org>
19:22 <@kanzure> phillip torrone <pt@oreilly.com>
19:22 <@kanzure> both of these guys know me so maybe just drop my name or something
19:23 < jmil> what's the etiquette? should I send to all of them at once or craft email individually to them?
19:23 <@kanzure> individually.
19:23 < jmil> ok cool
19:23 <@kanzure> just say you have a project that you've been working on from the reprap community, and that it's getting published in naturewhatever
19:24 < jmil> ok sweet thanks
19:26 < jmil> gotta run. thanks kanzure
19:26 <@kanzure> seeya
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20:18 < nmz787> yeah i can submit to "Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology"
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20:19 < AdrianG> hi guiz
20:19 < AdrianG> are we immortal yet
20:19 < Jora> :/
20:19 -!- _Sketch_ [~Sketch@71-81-146-246.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:19 < Jora> There can be only one.
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20:38 < AdrianG> what one
20:39 < yashgaroth> hiiiiighlandaaaaaaaaaaaaah
20:40 < Jora> Here we are born to be kinds, we are princes of the UNIIIIIVERRRSEEEE
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20:46 <@kanzure> Jora: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HSj-2shbqY ?
20:47 <@kanzure> maybe i am thinking of the wrong song
20:47 < Jora> lol...im watching this right now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i9kE3Ne7as
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20:49 <@kanzure> Jora: you might enjoy the videos listed here: http://diyhpl.us:9001/
20:49 <@kanzure> also, shame on you for believing in consciousness
20:49 <@kanzure> and shame on the allen brain institute for believing in consciousness
20:49 < lichen> dont be a downer kanzure
20:49 <@kanzure> bah
20:49 <@kanzure> i will down anything i want!
20:49 < lichen> stop forcing your own abritrary beliefs on other people
20:49 <@kanzure> lichen: and consciousness isn't totally arbitrary either?
20:50 < lichen> im really not up for this debate right now
20:50 <@kanzure> hey wait, you started it :(
20:50 < lichen> i just told you to stop being a dick
20:52 < Jora> thanks for the link kanzure
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20:53 < AdrianG> whateva, i do what i want !
20:53 < AdrianG> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZLVi4v7lSM
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22:37 < strangewarp> lol at person who claimed materialism is an arbitrary belief, when it's actually the negation of all arbitrary beliefs
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--- Log closed Wed Jun 27 00:00:52 2012