--- Log opened Sun Jul 08 00:00:02 2012
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08:55 < kanzure> bloopity
08:55 < Steel2> yo
08:55 < augur> bloppity
09:04 < kanzure> http://hforsten.com/evolutionary-algorithms-and-analog-electronic-circuits.html
09:04 < kanzure> https://github.com/Ttl/evolutionary-circuits
09:05 < kanzure> and discussion on that .. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4214476
09:13 < ParahSailin> for all your ranting about reddit, you sure use hacker news a lot
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10:10 < kanzure> ParahSailin: a legitimate complaint
10:11 < kanzure> at least it's not slashsnot?
10:17 < archels> mmm, one doesn't hear too much about evolutionary algorithms these days.
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13:21 < kanzure> evil scheme: offer web scraping services to academic publishers, but claim that i need complete copies (not just hashes) of their papers to make detection most accurate
13:21 < kanzure> (e.g. to detect "infringing materials")
13:21 < kanzure> however, that sort of operation would have to actually identify culprits
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13:23 < kanzure> "1 in 5 teenagers will experiment with science" "john, how long have you been pipetting without telling us?"
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13:28 < Steel2>  kanzure, got any interesting papers on recycling?
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13:33 < Steel2> also, anyone have chris99 or f_7's email?
13:36 < kanzure> f7 is solenoidclock@gmail.com
13:54 < kanzure> "there's no phd jobs" article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/us-pushes-for-more-scientists-but-the-jobs-arent-there/2012/07/07/gJQAZJpQUW_story.html?hpid=z1
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14:18 < kanzure> okay, so how about this idea. it's for a television show called "My Soviet Roommate". scientists are horribly underpaid in the current markets (close to minimum wage or their salaries don't even rise 2x over a 30 year career).
14:18 < kanzure> the premise for the show is that there's a suburban family with two working parents, and three kids- one is a daughter with a rare blood disease, and they have this health insurance plan that is paying $xx,000/mo for the treatment.
14:18 < kanzure> but when they go to get the policy renewed, the insurance company demands that they let this cheap Soviet scientist move in to their house, and from now on he will be synthesizing their drug. but the twist is that he only speaks Russian.
14:18 < kanzure> (e.g. it would be cheaper to just have him move into theh ouse for <$30,000/year than it would be to pay $xx,000/mo in drug bills)
14:18 < kanzure> maybe it would be a sitcom
14:20 < brownies> are they horribly underpaid? does their salary really behave like this over time?
14:20 < brownies> i'd like to see the real data first, separated out into "grad students" and "not grad students" buckets
14:21 < kanzure> well it should also be separated by "employed in the sciences" vs. say.. employed at a financial firm
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14:23 < kanzure> let's see..
14:23 < kanzure> brownies: http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#19-0000
14:23 < kanzure> oh i mean http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes190000.htm
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14:24 < kanzure> ok so the median is $60k, that's not terrible
14:24 < kanzure> i wonder if this includes academic jobs though
14:24 < brownies> we have a highly biased view, man
14:25 < brownies> 60K is pretty damn solid
14:25 < kanzure> why is "Monetary Authorities-Central Bank" a top employer
14:25 < brownies> also, consider that many labs and whatnot are in random cities, so low cost of living, where that 60K has higher buying power than it would in, say, SF
14:26 < kanzure> well i'm not ready to jump to the conclusion that these scientists are all paid $60k/year
14:26 < kanzure> this flies in the face of all the lowly paid postdocs that the article was just complaining about
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14:26 < brownies> what article?
14:27 < Steel2> 60k is pretty low for a stem degree
14:27 < kanzure> brownies: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/us-pushes-for-more-scientists-but-the-jobs-arent-there/2012/07/07/gJQAZJpQUW_story.html?hpid=z1
14:31 < brownies> the article seems to wildly generalize "chemistry == science"
14:31 < kanzure> sure
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14:32 < kanzure> faceface just linked me to this: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2010/06/is_this_whats_w.html
14:32 < kanzure> "A 14-year-old letter from a Cal Tech chemist to a junior member of his research team, ordering the young man to work nights and weekends, drew enormous interest from young scientists when it was recently posted on ChemistryBlog--evidence, to many, that graduate students and postdocs are treated like serfs."
14:32 < kanzure> http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2010/06/22/something-deeply-wrong-with-chemistry/
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14:34 < kanzure> "A chem professor in my department used to joke with new post-docs by taking them aside and saying "The institute says I have to give you two weeks of vacation a year. Which sundays do you want?""
14:35 < kanzure> haha
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14:44 < pasky> kanzure: have you tried to make a certain pokemon shiny? :)
14:45 < kanzure> the shinyness is like the 2nd bit of HP or something
14:54 < kanzure> "My husband's research group leader handed this letter around a few months ago at a research group meeting. Everyone was a little surprised, because this guy isn't the sort to joke around."
14:54 < kanzure> " It turned out it wasn't being passed around for its humour value. He wanted to "show them what sort of competition they were up against" and what they would need to do to keep up."
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15:01 < kanzure> "From now on, I or someone designated by me will take attendance at group meetings starting at 9:10 am. If you are not there, I will not sign your salary sheets. Also, if you haven't noticed the number of people working on weekends and nights in the lab is the worst I've seen in my 17 years."
15:05 < kanzure> "For those who have no idea what salary levels are - the current Chemistry graduate student salary at a NY State university is around $24K per year. (and if you have to TA because your boss is low on money, your income doesn't change but you lose out on 20 hours a week which should be spent in the lab)." (2010)
15:06 < kanzure> "Postdoc salaries are highly variable - the worst I heard was an offer for $28K a year at a major university in Texas (2006). NIH has adopted a minimal salary level of about $37K for anyone on an NIH fellowship, and some professors do follow that standard of their free will."
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15:09 < kanzure> so not only can you get cheap, awesomely smart labor for $28k/year but you can also make them work 2-3x as much, awesome
15:09 < kanzure> can i get a postdoc slave for mysel?
15:10 < kanzure> *myself
15:12 < kanzure> "Good call. I see this with PI's who have NIH UO1 and R21 grants that sequester the indirect cost when returned by the University and then pool them and buy equipment for their personal start-up business."
15:12 < kanzure> "Also, the use of their post-docs at both the start-up and at the University though they employee is only funded by the University grant. Subtle indeed..."
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15:19 < Steel2> kanzure: I know plenty of postdocs that would work for you for 25k a year if they got to work on cool stuff
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15:24 < kanzure> Steel2: i have work that is the coolest of the cool, for sure
15:25 < kanzure> big swinging dick university http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2010/06/22/something-deeply-wrong-with-chemistry/comment-page-1/#comment-12115
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15:27 < kanzure> http://www.psmag.com/science/the-real-science-gap-16191/?
15:27 < kanzure> "hile scores of thousands of young Ph.D.s labor in the nation’s university labs as low-paid, temporary workers, ostensibly training for permanent faculty positions that will never exist." hooray
15:34 < kanzure> oh fascinating
15:34 < kanzure> "The National Postdoctoral Association, which ostensibly speaks for postdocs, is a creature of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, a major representative of organized academic scientists. Postdoc unions exist on a handful of campuses, but they focus on local workplace conditions rather than national issues like the structure of careers."
15:34 < kanzure> "Change that could substantially relieve the plight of young scientists seems especially difficult to effect. The groups supporting the current situation are well organized, with strong and effective lobbies and are seen, both by themselves and by society at large, as representing major social goods:"
15:34 < kanzure> "The established researchers and their scholarly associations claim to speak for “science,” and thus for technological progress and the hope of cures for dread diseases. The universities represent education and opportunity."
15:35 < kanzure> "By the early 1970s, periodic surveys of the biomedical labor force by the National Academy of Sciences were noticing more and more new Ph.D.s accepting temporary postdoctoral appointments instead of proceeding to permanent jobs. Before long, the Academy’s reports were calling this demoralizing trend disguised unemployment, and the pool continued to grow relentlessly for the next 30 years."
15:35 < kanzure> "disguised unemployment"
15:39 < kanzure> that article has some good explanations for the origins of these structural issues
15:45 < Steel2> no luck on chris_99's email?
15:46 < Steel2> no luck on chris_99's email?
15:47 < kanzure> some other good comments here: http://rezaghadiri.net/nature-of-phd-program-science/
15:47 < kanzure> Steel2: viscousplacebo@gmail.com
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16:03 < Steel2> hey kanz, what was chris_99 again? my computer died :(
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16:03 < brownies> that's interesting
16:04 < brownies> 37K for a grad student salary is not great, admittedly
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16:14 < kanzure> Steel2: viscousplacebo@gmail.com
16:15 < Steel2> thanks
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16:52 < Steel2> Anyone here have experimental work they want to publish?
17:05 < Steel2> kanzure
17:05 < Steel2> how much money would you need to make major breakthroughs in your projects?
17:05 < Steel2> lower bound
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18:12 < Steel2> hey y'all
18:12 < Steel2> what are all you lurkers up to?
18:13 < Mokbortolan_> plotting
18:13 < Mokbortolan_> you?
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18:35 < obscurite> <-- in the molecular bio lab. not actually doing bio.
18:38 < Steel2> cool, obscurite
18:38 < Steel2> what type of bio?
18:38 < Steel2> err, rather, what are you doing?
18:39 < obscurite> reading about gibson assembly and procrastinating on my todo list
18:39 < obscurite> among other silly things. you?
18:43 < Steel2> uhhh
18:43 < kanzure> Steel2: money is not presently my limiting factor
18:44 < Steel2> what is?
18:44 < Steel2> also, gwern is moving closer to me >_>
18:56 < kanzure> welp i seem to have an annotated tiger genome now
18:59 < Steel2> kanzure, what's your limiting factor?
19:01 < kanzure> hardware prototyping seems to be order-of-magnitudes more time consuming than software
19:01 < kanzure> but i still don't understand why it has to be like that (in a structural sense, i mean)
19:01 < Steel2> hmm
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19:12 < azonenberg> kanzure: because the turnaround time is a lot longer
19:12 < obscurite> kanzure, what hardware are you thinking about?
19:12 < azonenberg> you have to actually manufacture a physical device rather than just compiling your program
19:14 < obscurite> hardware turnaround can be much shorter than software in fact
19:14 < kanzure> go on..
19:14 < obscurite> i've seen this firsthand many times
19:14 < obscurite> it absolutely depends on your needs
19:14 < kanzure> well if my needs are commodity components, sure, you can have that airdropped next-day
19:15 < obscurite> you have to specify your application before you can speculate on turnaround
19:15 < kanzure> obscurite: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf
19:15 < kanzure> this is an old doc but lists some relevant projects:
19:15 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html
19:16 < kanzure> for most software i can snap my fingers and have a prototype working in an hour (i type fast), it's just not that way with electronics at all
19:16 < kanzure> even if i had a considerable inventory of random-ass parts (which, i don't) and even if it was organized well
19:17 < obscurite> kanzure, where are you based
19:17 < obscurite> I'll try to hook you up with the right people
19:17 < kanzure> i'm out of austin, texas
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19:17 < kanzure> hook me up with what? i don't understand
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19:18 < obscurite> how far are you from this place? http://atxhackerspace.org/wiki/Contact_Us
19:18 < kanzure> i know them
19:18 < kanzure> i was there since the beginning
19:18 < kanzure> (the meeting to agree to have a meeting to agree to make a hackerspace -_-)
19:19 < obscurite> that was my first suggestion
19:19 < kanzure> they moved away from me
19:19 < kanzure> it's a complicated story, but they were originally renting space inside a hackerspace
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19:19 < kanzure> then they decided to become separate
19:19 < kanzure> so they moved out of the space near me
19:19 < obscurite> I see.
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19:22 < kanzure> they had this giant cnc project (11 foot by 6 foot) that has taken them 4 years to not make any significant progress on
19:23 < kanzure> i don't think they are a shining beacon of hope in terms of rapid hardware prototyping
19:23 < obscurite> fair enough
19:24 < obscurite> feel free to jump on our mailing list, though we're a little further away. hackmanhattan.com (nyc based hackerspace). we've pushed out electronics in a weekend.
19:24 < obscurite> there are a few biohackers or wannabe's among us as well.
19:25 < kanzure> did a fellow named nathan come by the other day?
19:25 < obscurite> I haven't met Nathan but he's posted on our list a few times.
19:25 < kanzure> he keeps complaining that there are no biohackers in nyc, and that genspace is lame / never there
19:25 < obscurite> I'm a member of Genspace but have no time to go. Doing iGEM this summer.
19:25 < obscurite> (not their team)
19:26 < obscurite> Genspace can be quiet, but it's a good community.
19:27 < kanzure> they really seem to hate internet communication in general :(
19:27 < obscurite> They're just busy folks honestly.
19:27 < obscurite> NYC lifestyle is hectic.
19:28 < ParahSailin_> http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/120510/srep00402/full/srep00402.html
19:31 < kanzure> obscurite: also, hi. i don't think we've met before.
19:32 < kanzure> oh wait, no. we talked about bitcoins once.
19:32 < kanzure> and i guess this is you too http://danielpacker.org/open-source-pcr-and-electrophoresis-roundup/
19:35 < obscurite> hello again
19:40 < obscurite> kazure -- have you found any diy microfluidics
19:40 < obscurite> that seems to be the real hurdle
19:41 < kanzure> sure there's all sorts of diy setups that people have built
19:41 < obscurite> the first thing i'd do is catalog those
19:42 < kanzure> do you want the links?
19:42 < obscurite> they'll just gather dust in my inbox at the moment. is there a wiki page you can use?
19:43 < kanzure> sure there are many wikis
19:43 < obscurite> what's your favorite for this kind of thing? use that
19:43 < kanzure> so, we've been floating around some schematics for a laser cutter to make microfluidic prototypes
19:44 < kanzure> but the primary problem i'm having is optimizing fenn+nmz787's location to be the smae place, so that i don't have to buy them both equipment/parts/components in addition to stuff for me
19:44 < kanzure> because that's 3x expenses and i'm ultimately too cheap to do that
19:45 < obscurite> is it necessary for some reason to build a laser cutter? it's been shown that the parts for a CO2 cutter are no cheaper than an imported complete cutter
19:45 < kanzure> but, then nmz787 comes with an extra constraint of his gf, who might end up in sf or portland or nyc (wtf) so i have to also somehow optimize that factor too
19:45 < kanzure> really the core problem is logistics i think
19:45  * kanzure ends rant
19:47 < obscurite> speaking of logistics, it seems your first order of business is to relocate where there's a good deal of technology and tools nearby
19:47 < obscurite> :)
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19:49 < obscurite> anyway, if you manage to get a wiki up for this, i'll gladly pitch in. diy oligos is worthwhile, even if ultaimtely more expensive.
19:49 < ParahSailin_> kanzure, where's the money for this stuff coming from
19:51 < obscurite> someone I know in the NYC academic community did manual oligo synthesis as an organic chemistry student
19:51 < obscurite> been meaning to ask him more about that :)
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19:52 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: out of pocket (i do software contracting/consulting things)
19:53 < kanzure> obscurite: git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git is http://diyhpl.us/wiki
19:53 < kanzure> obscurite: why did he choose to do it manually?
19:54 < obscurite> kazure -- I assume out of curiosity and for learning's sake
19:54 < kanzure> there are also other interesting things here btw http://diyhpl.us/cgit
19:54 < obscurite> 11PM is my hanging-out-in-the-lab cutoff. headed home.
19:55 < obscurite> kanzure -- collect those microfluidics links up
19:55 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ done
19:56 < obscurite> can you add a wiki page pointing out which are relevant to diy
19:56 < obscurite> too many papers to brwose
19:56 < kanzure> they can all be done DIY, i don't understand
19:56 < obscurite> be back later.
19:57 < ParahSailin_> how do you get into independent software contracting, ie get clients
19:57 < obscurite> (was interested in descriptions of existing/current/planned diy microfluidics... not theory on how one does it)
19:57 < obscurite> (but that's OK too)
19:57 < kanzure> obscurite: if you want to write for me that would be supercool of you
19:57 < kanzure> i could give you lots of pointers for that
19:58 < obscurite> kazure -- was asking if you could come up with a list, if you knew of projects
19:59 < kanzure> hackteria's crap, the stupid ovenbake crap, lamination, plastic injection molding, laser cutting, ion implantation, tape cutting/relief, stamping methods, photolithography, sharpie, EOWD, other electrowetting methods (not dielectrics) (some pcb stuff goes here)
20:00 < kanzure> ParahSailin_: it is very hard to *not* get software gigs at the moment
20:00 < kanzure> just show up in san francisco and say sup to your homies and you'll be rolling in dough (your experience may vary)
20:01 < ParahSailin_> ah so thats why you went over there?
20:01 < kanzure> ostensibly i went over there for the fbi thing
20:01 < kanzure> but i did land a handful of new contracts
20:01 < kanzure> and stopped by a current employer's office to hang out, eat their pizza..
20:02 < kanzure> my advice would be to hook up with a friend on a paid project sometime
20:03 < ParahSailin_> i dont really know anybody
20:03 < kanzure> you know me :(
20:03 < kanzure> i am so sad now
20:05 < ParahSailin_> first i gotta figure out what's wrong with my hands, been having tendonitis, probably because i got too skinny
20:05 < ParahSailin_> what is the pay like typically, if you dont mind me asking
20:06 < kanzure> well ybit is whoring himself out for like 8% my rate
20:08 < kanzure> depending on your level of experience or skill you should be thinking of $40-$75/hour to start out at
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20:08 < kanzure> but most people don't like hourly rates, so they choose daily rates ($200-$500/day) or per-project rates (which varies based on the nature of the project or how much value it is bringing)
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20:11 < kanzure> i'm sorta in between "major" gigs at the moment
20:11 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/resume.pdf
20:12 < kanzure> garoo back-end backend inconsistency
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20:55 < brownies> 8% ?
20:56 < brownies> that's rough.
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21:20 < Steel2> where's rdb been?
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23:53 < foucist> kanzure: pfft. you call that a resume?
23:53 < foucist> :P
--- Log closed Mon Jul 09 00:00:03 2012