--- Log opened Sun Jul 29 00:00:22 2012
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00:06 < jrayhawk> well, we are particularly bad at making it inviting
00:09 < kanzure> should i offer money
00:13 < jrayhawk> you might redirect http://diyhpl.us/ to http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ and point the "register to edit here" link to the actual newuser page rather than just the piny-commands page
00:14 < jrayhawk> i should make some improvements to the ikiwiki page template to present more options in a more intuitive and concise manner
00:15 < jrayhawk> i guess i should talk to joey about that
00:15 < jrayhawk> some of that work should go upstream
00:15 < kanzure> http://ikiwiki.info/plugins/contrib/mediawiki/
00:15 < kanzure> i sort of doubt it's the markup style though
00:16 < jrayhawk> it's probably contributing. markdown is hard to learn and the corner cases are unintuitive
00:16 < kanzure> i just resort to html, but that makes me a terrible person
00:16 < jrayhawk> it's true
00:16 < kanzure> maybe i should do a mediawiki css file
00:17 < jrayhawk> http://ikiwiki.info/css_market/ has some less awful ones; you can copy them into a test wiki as 'local.css'
00:17 < kanzure> no my thesis is that it's exactly the default mediawiki layout that these assholes want
00:19 < kanzure> oh i mean monobook
00:21 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Monobook.css
00:21 < jrayhawk> https://antportal.com/wiki/ is rather lovely
00:21 < kanzure> monobook isn't pretty; i don't think pretty is the goal
00:22 < kanzure> do you know where or which hooks i should go poke at if i want to pretend to do work?
00:24 < jrayhawk> well, css, at least, you can add per-repo as local.css
00:24 < jrayhawk> if you want to do css globally, then we'd need to add an underlay, which isn't a bad idea
00:24 < jrayhawk> if you want to change the page template, I... don't remember how easy I made that.
00:24 < jrayhawk> I'll go look.
00:26 < jrayhawk> ah, whatever ikiwiki can't find in /srv/templates it'll look for in /usr/share/ikiwiki/templates
00:30 < jrayhawk> i suspect the antportal css would be most of the payoff with none of the actual work
00:33 < nmz787>  kanzure: hi
00:34 < jrayhawk> in that the page will then have a degree of intentionality
00:36 < jrayhawk> they should try to register transhumani.sm
00:37 < jrayhawk> if the sm authority asks, transhumani is obviously a legitimate organization deserving of a .sm name; they have a website and everything!
00:42 < nmz787> why not just transhumanism.com?
00:42 < nmz787> or .org
00:43 < nmz787> does having sm have any DNS advantage?
00:43 < jrayhawk> it's just a cute abuse of the namespace
00:44 < jrayhawk> hmm. 80-100 euros. not fun.
00:46 < nmz787> what's the most compact compression algorithm for zipping stuff?
00:47 < nmz787> specifically i want to zip up some videos that I'm not watching
00:47 < jrayhawk> whatever you can get a grad student to write
00:48 < jrayhawk> more helpfully, 7z uses modern lzma
00:48 < kanzure> nmz787: transhumanism.org is owned by a pacifist millionaire
00:49 < jrayhawk> if you have posix, the 'lzma' suite will do stream compression if you don't want a container
00:49 < kanzure> who is against handing over the domain name
00:49 < nmz787> who is it?
00:50 < kanzure> david pearce
00:50 < kanzure> the "stop eating humans" person, pfft
00:51 < nmz787> this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce_(philosopher)
00:51 < nmz787> ?
00:51 < kanzure> this one http://www.knightsbridge.net/
00:52 < jrayhawk> transhumanism.net appears to be owned by bostrom
00:52 < kanzure> transhumanism.org and 1000s of others are david pearce
00:52 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/david-pearce-domains.url.txt
00:54 < nmz787> transhumanism.org redirects to http://humanityplus.org/
00:54 < kanzure> yeah, they convinced him to do a redirect
00:54 < nmz787> why are these guys not one in the same as us.?
00:54 < kanzure> humanity+ has a history of being retarded and lame
00:55 < nmz787> rather, why aren't they sponsoring us?
00:55 < kanzure> i tried to work from the inside (i was "director of r&d") but it just spiraled outo f control
00:55 < kanzure> *out of control
00:55 < kanzure> well because they no have no plan, skills or money
00:56 < kanzure> also they are just four to six people
00:56 < jrayhawk> looks like at their highest levels of compression, bzip2 will typically edge out lzma,
00:56 < kanzure> and all six of them are trying to run the same wordpress website, except none of them can figure out how to use wordpress
00:56 < jrayhawk> but highest compression is kinda slow
00:59 < nmz787> to 7z i'm getting 1.1mb/s
00:59 < nmz787> geez, maybe i don't wanna compress these videos
00:59 < nmz787> 93% compression
01:01 < brownies> kanzure: that seems like an obstacle to using wordpress
01:01 < kanzure> brownies: it's worse than i've described it
01:01 < kanzure> infinitely worse
01:02 < kanzure> they are at the butt-end of technology; not the part they think they are at.
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01:06 < brownies> heh
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01:14 < nmz787> looks like they have $
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04:22 < kanzure> nmz787: they don't have $5
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04:35 < kanzure> http://surveys.peerproduction.net/2012/07/mapping-hackers-diy-community-survey-2012-results/6/
04:35 < kanzure> haha only 9 respondents to that crap
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08:55 < delinquentme> OH MI GAW
08:55 < delinquentme> WANT cookies
08:55 < delinquentme> but im eating lettuce
08:55 < delinquentme> :D
09:02 < kanzure> um.
09:05 < chris_99> anyone coded a PID before?
09:09 < kanzure> i haven't, but i would be surprised if ThomasEgi or fenn haven't
09:09 < ThomasEgi> like a PID controller?
09:10 < chris_99> yeah a PID controller
09:20 < ThomasEgi> haven't coded one. but the mathematical implementation in code is not too much of a problem.
09:20 < ThomasEgi> getting the math itself right is a lot more tricky than the integration part
09:21 < chris_99> i'm wondering about the tuning part specificly
09:21 < chris_99> guess i'll need to find some tuning algs.
09:24 < chris_99> hmm, i'll try implementing in Mathematica first, and take it from there
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09:31 < ThomasEgi> tuning as in stability, the time it takes to respond, overshot etc?
09:33 < chris_99> yup, i've only briefly looked at one of the equations and it looks like theres a few parameters to tweak
09:43 < ThomasEgi> depends a lot on your system
09:43 < ThomasEgi> what do you need the PID controller for if i may ask*
09:43 < ThomasEgi> ?
09:47 < kanzure> http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/theprometheancell/diybio_placenta_stem_cells_for
09:48 < kanzure> http://www.diybio.eu/regulatory-affairs/
09:48 < chris_99> i'm going to be using it for controlling a peltier hopefully
09:49 < ThomasEgi> wouldn't a 2point controller or a P-controller be totaly sufficent for that task?
09:50 < chris_99> 2 point controller?
09:50 < ThomasEgi> pretty much is an if/else. if too hot, cool , else do nothin
09:51 < ThomasEgi> they are very easy to build. and in many cases they are doing a good job
09:53 < chris_99> ah i understand you now, yeah theres no reason i couldn't use something like that.  From what i understand though, the PID adjusts based on a number of previous readings
09:53 < chris_99> making it more accurate
09:53 < ThomasEgi> yeah. PID is used when speed and accuracy matter most.
09:54 < ThomasEgi> but it requires to know your system parameters very well in order to make it work at all.
09:54 < ThomasEgi> and you need to carefully design the PID to not produce an unstable system
09:55 < ThomasEgi> P-controllers are probably more what you are looking for. they are easy, and still reasonably accurate
09:58 < chris_99> its going to be used for heating 1l of water/glycerine mix, so it's temperature isn't going to fluctuate too much
09:59 < ThomasEgi> should be no problem.
09:59 < ThomasEgi> if the temperature shouldn't change much. i'd recommend a P controller over a 2 point one.
10:00 < ThomasEgi> but 1l of water is a lot. and a peltien will probably need ages to change temperature anyway.
10:01 < chris_99> this is a 400W peltier
10:01 < chris_99> possibly using multiple ones
10:04 < ThomasEgi> whupsie. okay. that's.. a bit more than i expected
10:14 < kanzure> ughhh http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TernarySqlAlchemy
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11:22 < delinquentme> HEYYyy do any of you guys know if there is a central place to search for science-hack type things?
11:22 < delinquentme> I had asked in here yesterday about " what does a DVD sans media layer do ? "
11:23 < delinquentme> and it turns out its a really cheap / small prism
11:23 < brownies> ...wikipedia...?
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11:23 < jrayhawk> The maker communities might be the closest
11:23 < delinquentme> yeahh but wikipedia isnt exactly like a repo of what is a good source of mass
11:23 < delinquentme> its more " What is mass " and say ... equations associated with it
11:24 < delinquentme> yeah maker communities i could see that
11:24 < delinquentme> but like if there are people who are hacking together different machines ... it would be awesome to have a website that would have tons of resources for cheap DIY workarounds
11:24 < delinquentme> household items with substantial density
11:24 < delinquentme> bricks
11:24 < delinquentme> water maybe
11:27 < yashgaroth> david pearce is a millionaire?!
11:28 < kanzure> yashgaroth: nah i'm just making things up
11:28 < kanzure> i don't know what his financial status is
11:29 < yashgaroth> aww damn
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13:20 < delinquentme> sooooooo
13:21 < delinquentme> what about an arxiv.org for biology / chemistry
13:25 < yashgaroth> that's what plos is
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13:27 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, is it though?
13:27 < delinquentme> its certainly not at that capacity
13:27 < delinquentme> and I think you've got to pay to submit it
13:28 < yashgaroth> yes, because arxiv papers are just people writing equations, and not conducting expensive lab research
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13:34 < kanzure> yashgaroth: that doesn't explain the high energy particle experimentalists :P
13:35 < kanzure> the reality is that you can just upload your paper wherever
13:35 < kanzure> arxiv is a red herring
13:35 < yashgaroth> nothing explains high energy particle physics
13:36 < chris_99> arxiv is peer reviewed right?
13:36 < kanzure> arxiv is not peer reviewed
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13:37 < chris_99> ah
13:40 < ParahSailin> arxiv is the platform for peer review
13:40 < ParahSailin> you look at a paper, you are reviewing it
13:41 < ParahSailin> is *a platform
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13:41 < chris_99> does it support feedback though
13:41 < chris_99> so a paper could be flagged as shit
13:41 < kanzure> i think there's some sysadmin you can email if you find something spammy
13:42 < ParahSailin> i think it supports submission of a paper calling another paper shit
13:42 < kanzure> or there might be one person who makes sure the upload is an actual paper and not, e.g., goatse
13:42 < chris_99> hmm, might be better if they just let people comment on it
13:42 < kanzure> nope
13:42 < kanzure> arxiv is terribly underfunded
13:42 < kanzure> it's like two guys in a department that doesn't understand arxiv
13:44 < delinquentme> is Gcal broken for everyone?
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13:45 < delinquentme> kanzure, correct me if im wrong here but....
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13:45 < delinquentme> isnt that like a SUUUPER simple web app with alot of bandwidth?
13:45 < kanzure> the web technology has nothing to do with it
13:46 < delinquentme> and what do you  mean ' red herring '
13:46 < delinquentme> a fluke?
13:46 < kanzure> it's maybe 0.5% of the problem
13:46 < delinquentme> explain
13:46 < delinquentme> no a distraction!
13:46 < delinquentme> O_o
13:46 < delinquentme> idk about this.
13:46 < kanzure> are you okay?
13:47 < kanzure> 13:35 < kanzure> the reality is that you can just upload your paper wherever
13:47 < kanzure> that's all i meant. this is not hard to understand.
13:47 < delinquentme> whats the secret sauce ?
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13:47 < delinquentme> that its hosted by cornell?
13:48 < kanzure> its secret sauce was being there first
13:48 < ParahSailin> do we pronounce it arkziv or arkhiv
13:49 < kanzure> arkziv
13:49 < ParahSailin> is the x an x or a khi
13:49 < kanzure> but they probably want you to pronounce it arkhiv, which is bullshit
13:49 < delinquentme> chi
13:49 < delinquentme> yeah
13:49 < ParahSailin> do you say lateks or latekh
13:49 < delinquentme> its pronounced Archive
13:50 < delinquentme> i've heard both
13:50 < kanzure> if they wanted it to be pronounced "archive" they would have called it "archive"
13:50 < delinquentme> IDK
13:50 < delinquentme> kanzure, its a greek throwback
13:50 < delinquentme> trust me its archive
13:50 < kanzure> it's bullshit that's what it is
13:50 < delinquentme> chi = x
13:50 < delinquentme> lol
13:50 < delinquentme> its academics being clevar
13:50 < kanzure> a-r-x-i-v, it doesn't get the honor of being pronounced in their dumb ways
13:50 < delinquentme> do you say arEXiv
13:50 < delinquentme> lol i should start doing that
13:50 < kanzure> i say a-r-x-iv
13:51 < kanzure> i-v
13:51 < delinquentme> are we going on strike?
13:51 < kanzure> yes
13:52 < delinquentme> ill bring cheeseburgers
13:53 < ParahSailin> how do you pronounce TeX?
13:54 < bkero> tech
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13:54 < kanzure> text.
13:55 < yashgaroth> "pronounced  /ˈleɪtɛk/, /ˈleɪtɛx/, /ˈlɑːtɛx/, or /ˈlɑːtɛk/" eurgh
13:56 < brownies> tek
13:57 < ParahSailin> it doesnt list /leiteks/ at all?
13:57 < yashgaroth> pretty sure x in IPA covers ks, but I'm not linguologist
13:58 < ParahSailin> no x in ipa is the kh sound
13:58 < ParahSailin> like you'd have in german ich
13:58 < yashgaroth> well shit I just pronounce it like the rubber material
13:58 < ParahSailin> (well certain dialects of krautish)
14:00 < kanzure> let's try an experiment with arxiv
14:00 < kanzure> i'll make a scraper that takes the latest .tex files
14:00 < kanzure> and then appends myself as a coauthor on papers with >100 authors
14:00 < kanzure> and then resubmits the paper
14:02 < kanzure> i should probably also add in some fake names
14:02 < kanzure> i.b. hakkenshit and o. hai were ok names, but there should be more
14:02 < yashgaroth> dr. rembrandt q. einstein
14:03 < brownies> why would you do such a thing
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15:12 < eudoxia> for the same reason he wrote that AI class signup script
15:13 < eudoxia> lolz
15:15 < kanzure> eudoxia: so if i use monobook.css on diyhpl.us/wiki would you start using that wiki?
15:15 < eudoxia> hahahah, oh you
15:15 < eudoxia> not really, no
15:16 < kanzure> why nto?
15:16 < eudoxia> I'm actually pretty happy with where our current wiki is going
15:16 < eudoxia> http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
15:16 < kanzure> i'm just really surprised that you wanted to create a separate wiki
15:16 < kanzure> so i'm trying to understand
15:16 < eudoxia> it's not perfect, but it's improving
15:16 < kanzure> if it's not the stylesheet, then what is it?
15:17 < eudoxia> not really sure. maybe it's the interface, or simply MediaWiki's popularity. in any case, this one already has more information than diyhpluswiki, so I don't see a point in switching to it
15:18 < kanzure> i don't think that's a good reason. the goals are exactly the same.
15:18 < kanzure> also, how is an interface not the same thing as a stylesheet..
15:19 < eudoxia> fair point
15:19 < kanzure> i'm just trying to understand. fractured effort is a terrible problem in this community.
15:19 < kanzure> so understanding it helps us not die.
15:19 < eudoxia> is the markup for ikiwiki different?
15:20 < kanzure> there is a different markup, but there's a plugin i haven't installed that uses mediawiki's syntax
15:20 < kanzure> also, html is allowed anyway
15:20 < eudoxia> raw html is definitely convenient
15:20 < eudoxia> Steel is going to enable that one
15:20 < kanzure> just don't write elaborate xss javascript attacks
15:20 < eudoxia> like I could do that
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15:21 < kanzure> so maybe you just like steel more? :P
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15:23 < eudoxia> i like you all the same
15:23 < eudoxia> but I like mediawiki more than both
15:23 < kanzure> any reason why?
15:24 < eudoxia> easier for me to use, comes with more out of the box functionality
15:24 < eudoxia> everyone else seems to use it
15:24 < kanzure> how is it easier specifically?
15:25 < kanzure> btw i used to run tons of mediawiki instances, so feel free to actually tell me
15:25 < eudoxia> i know
15:25 < eudoxia> http://web.archive.org/web/20080808080901/http://heybryan.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page
15:25 < eudoxia> I actually sort of liked this one more than the current one
15:25 < kanzure> yeah but also i had this random-ass reprap.org-wiki fork
15:26 < kanzure> and kobic's 10,000-wiki botnet thing.. it was weird.
15:26 < eudoxia> this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOBIC thing?
15:26 < kanzure> yes
15:27 < kanzure> "It has around 50 bioinformatists with various web sites" haha more like "an infinite never-ending sea of wikis"
15:27 < eudoxia> haha
15:27 < kanzure> http://biophilosophy.org/
15:27 < kanzure> http://biosophy.org/index.php/Main_Page
15:27 < kanzure> http://biologism.org/
15:27 < kanzure> http://biojustice.org/
15:27 < kanzure> http://biolicense.org/
15:27 < kanzure> http://biosapiens.org/
15:28 < kanzure> http://biopedia.org/
15:29 < eudoxia> biosophy seems the closest to the central site
15:29 < eudoxia> it's sort of like the Terasem thing, where there are so many sites and subsidiaries you can't really tell whether it's legit or a really complicated criminal scheme
15:29 < kanzure> i don't even remember what the central one is
15:30 < eudoxia> it's the only one of the two with a logo
15:30 < eudoxia> ignore the 'only''
15:32 < kanzure> it used to be biowebhost.kr
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16:42 < delinquentme> what was the verdict on making arxiv for bio
16:42 < delinquentme> biochem ?
16:42 < yashgaroth> nay
16:45 < kanzure> you mean an ftp server?
16:46 < delinquentme> the services of Arxiv.org are basically that
16:46 < delinquentme> and would be wildly simple to build out
16:46 < delinquentme> trivial almost
16:47 < delinquentme> the other thing I was wondering is about submitting to journals
16:47 < delinquentme> is there value in making it easy to submit to a ton of open source journals?
16:48 < kanzure> no, because most of them insist you only submit to one journal
16:59 < Urchin>  http://www.biotorrents.net/browse.php
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18:15 < delinquentme> kanzure, even the open ones?
18:15 < delinquentme> thats bizarre
18:15 < delinquentme> IMO
18:22 < kanzure> it's very standard.. what are you basing "bizarre" on
18:24 < delinquentme> kanzure, are they not open journals?
18:28 < kanzure> "open access" just means "You pay us to slap a creative commons license on it for you"
18:53 < delinquentme> bin.
18:53 < delinquentme> go.
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19:54 < kanzure> so the .sm tld is going for $170/year? or is this landing page just a scam
20:12 < kanzure> jrayhawk: so i only need https://antportal.com/wiki/local.css ?
20:27 < ParahSailin> somalia?
20:28 -!- Hasp [~Hasp@pool-108-20-187-180.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:28 < kanzure> hello hasp
20:28 < Hasp> Hello
20:28 < ParahSailin> oh sammarino
20:28 < ParahSailin> id rather have somali tld
20:30 < Hasp> How is everyone?
20:30 < kanzure> i'm ok. pushing bytes around.
20:31 < Hasp> Bit-flipping is fun lol
20:31 < Hasp> Bio project?
20:33 < kanzure> no just some sqlalchemy
20:35 < Hasp> fun stuff
20:35 < kanzure> Hasp: what brings you here?
20:37 < ParahSailin> does boston have a "silicon *" nickname?
20:37 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@64-91-71-48.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:37 < ParahSailin> or i guess they can get by without hitching onto silicon valley's fame
20:40 < Hasp> Transhumanism/bio fan
20:41 < kanzure> Hasp: have you been to the boston open source science lab (bosslab)?
20:41 < Hasp> Can't say that I have
20:41 < kanzure> it's somewhere in davis square
20:41 < Hasp> I'm pretty close to Davis square haha
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20:42 < kanzure> Hasp: it's across from the pizza place
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20:43 < kanzure> Hasp: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/avery-louie-bosslab.txt
20:45 < Hasp> Just a general area for people to run experiments? That's frigging awesome
20:46 < kanzure> avery also does training if you give him monies or foods
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20:47 < Hasp> Sweet. I'm gonna have to visit sometime
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21:00 < jmil> delinquentme: yes the orbital shaker is my design
21:00 < jmil> delinquentme: did u have a question about it?
21:01 < delinquentme> Someone made a post on how it could be improved.  Its not one of your active-development projects is it?
21:01 < delinquentme> Basically I'm scatter brained on OS hardware and shakers are stupid simple
21:01 < jmil> i use it all the time. got a link for the post you mention?
21:02 < delinquentme> http://labrigger.com/blog/2010/12/20/open-source-orbital-shaker/
21:02 < jmil> kanzure: http://www.philly.com/blood and see accompanying article
21:03 < delinquentme> haha and yeah i did some digging around on that printer jmil
21:04 < delinquentme> the extruder on your thingverse kicked me off
21:04 < jmil> sweet
21:04 < jmil> tell me
21:04 < delinquentme> tell you what?
21:04 < jmil> you did some digging around… what did you find?
21:05 < jmil> sorry i'm not understanding your text
21:05 < delinquentme> Oh that the crazyness about the modded reprap and vasculiture was you
21:05 < jmil> oh cool
21:05 < delinquentme> or you were involved w it
21:05 < jmil> it's all one project actually
21:05 < delinquentme> yeah dude i kinda bugged out
21:06 < delinquentme> did you check out that webpage?
21:06 < delinquentme> the GUI mention
21:06 < jmil> i printed the vasculature, then we needed a way to perfuse the vasculature. so i also developed the orbital shaker to get fluid pulsing through many gels at the same time
21:06 < jmil> GUI mention?
21:06 < delinquentme> in the labrigger link above
21:06 < jmil> oh make an interface for it you mean
21:06 < delinquentme> I think thats some 3rd party making suggestions as to how it might be improved
21:06 < jmil> did you do the post?
21:06 < delinquentme> nah but it got me thinking
21:06 < jmil> oh cool
21:06 < delinquentme> how are the tube holding up?
21:07 < delinquentme> tubes**
21:07 < jmil> the tubes are stellar
21:07 < delinquentme> like the mention of a more "mechanical" way of doing it is cool but if they're holding up shit thats all you need
21:07 < delinquentme> whats the current control interface?
21:07 < jmil> the problem is the incubator is a humidified environment (around 90%) and body temp (98º). so i'm actually stunned the stepper motors havent rusted yet
21:08 < jmil> sorry i don't understand what you mean: "if they're holding up shit thats all you need"
21:08 < jmil> the current control interface is a single .pde arduino file where i program each motor and hit upload. it's only 100 lines or so
21:09 < jmil> http://www.thingiverse.com/download:15463
21:10 < delinquentme> jmil, " if they work ... thats all that matters "
21:10 < delinquentme> would there be any advantages to scaling them out?
21:10 < jmil> oh haha true
21:10 < delinquentme> say more shakers?  smaller and more numerous shakers?
21:10 < delinquentme> different frequencies?
21:10 < jmil> ya i really want a single big plate that i can put many 6-well plates on to shake at once
21:11 < delinquentme> so 1) bigger stepper and heftier tubes?
21:11 < jmil> it turns out that reproducibility across a large number of gels is more important than getting many single plates going at different frequencies
21:12 < jmil> delinquentme: this is what inspired my shaker… and i need to reverse engineer a big one now:
21:12 < jmil> http://www.2spi.com/catalog/misc_lab/belly-dancer-shaker.shtml
21:12 < jmil> belly dancer sits level though. mine did true orbital shaking
21:13 < delinquentme> the gels being the tissue chunks you were trying to dissolve the sugar from within
21:13 < delinquentme> which is better?
21:13 < delinquentme> depends on application?
21:13 < jmil> which is better… between what and what?
21:13 < jmil> oh orbital shaking is better i think
21:14 < jmil> gets more perfusion through the gels
21:14 < jmil> haven't quantified it. just a gut feeling
21:14 < delinquentme> true orbital vrs whatever the "belly dancer" does
21:14 < jmil> true orbital is better
21:15 < delinquentme> well I guess anything with greater variance in movement would probably dissolve quicker
21:15 < jmil> makes a stronger fluid "wave" going around a circular well in a plastic plate. that gets more nutrients into the gel
21:15 < jmil> oh no the sugar dissolves in about 10 min. the better movement is to get oxygen rich liquid into the vascular network
21:15 < delinquentme> would it help to be able to adjust the oscilation radius?
21:16 < jmil> sure
21:16 < jmil> you mean to go from flat rotation to orbital shaking?
21:16 < jmil> that would be awesome
21:16 < jmil> one shaker to do it all
21:16 < jmil> as you can see in the original design, the offset from center is fixed with the printed part sitting on a screw: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5045
21:16 < jmil> but if you had it adjustable, that would be nice
21:16 < delinquentme> orbital round im guessing has a Y axis movement?
21:17 < jmil> orbital shaking is like a spinning top. it rotates around the center axis… can't remember if that's called pitch or yaw or what
21:17 < delinquentme> have you had anyone approach you about purchasing one?
21:18 < jmil> nope. it's not really a "product" yet
21:18 < delinquentme> Hmmm ... what would flat rotation be then?
21:18 < jmil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFgDQ2s9vM
21:19 < jmil> vs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d4_SQBTFjg
21:20 < jmil> delinquentme: u can build things like these?
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21:23 < delinquentme_> allright some reason my OS just got slow
21:24 < delinquentme_> Ok so one stays in a fixed plane while the true orbital does not
21:25 < jmil> ya that's it
21:25 < delinquentme_> i really like this hardware
21:25 < delinquentme_> I dont suppose youve got plans for it?
21:26 < jmil> for high precision flow we connect a pump to a single inlet in one gel and get precise flow through it. but the challenge is plumbing through dozens of gels at once. so when we scale up we just use the orbital shaker
21:26 < jmil> u don't suppose i have plans for what?
21:27 < delinquentme_> the shaker
21:27 < delinquentme_> oh wait
21:27 < delinquentme_> so then you're going to need to build more
21:28 < delinquentme_> Though ... I guess everyone needs shakers
21:28 < delinquentme_> ( gaging market )
21:28 < delinquentme_> http://www.foundrygroup.com/wp/2012/07/our-investment-in-modular-robotics/
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21:31 < delinquentme_> So jmil  what do you want to do with the shaker? Do you just build more ... or do you want to add to it?
21:31 < delinquentme_> feature wise
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21:34 < jmil> what about foundry group now?
21:35 < jmil> i want a bigger shaker. needs to hold around 16 plates. that will allow us to do better quantitative biology with the vascular gels i am making
21:38 < delinquentme_> someone made a 3 mil investment in them
21:38 < delinquentme_> so it looks like the current version all the plates are shaken individually
21:39 < delinquentme_> you're still wanting to go with that?
21:40 < jmil> naw i want one big shaker for many plates. like 16 plates on one shaker
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21:43 < delinquentme_> now it seems that keeping that movement homogenous across all plates would be really hard then no?
21:44 < delinquentme_> plates on the outside would move more than those at the center ... esp in orbital movements
21:44 < delinquentme_> problem?
21:44 < jmil> oh that is true. i would do flat shaking for lots of plates if you had the adjustable y-axis you mentioned
21:45 < jmil> delinquentme_: you know how to build these things?
21:45 < delinquentme_> jmil, I cant see it being complex
21:46 < jmil> well the current price for large orbital shakers, commercially, is around $800. surely the open source community can get that price down
21:46 < delinquentme_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXyvtNrXLSk&feature=plcp
21:46 < delinquentme_> so like controlling seems that its the hardest part
21:47 < delinquentme_> and thats not really complex
21:48 < delinquentme_> and you're just manually uploading code to each arduino and then wiring up new steppers in your model?
21:49 < delinquentme_> What I've done in the past is use computers to control them ... like id *LOVE* to get a raspberry pi controlling one
21:49 < delinquentme_> pull up web page... tell it how long to run .. and go
21:50 < kanzure> i don't think a web page is a good idea. how about just a daemon or script instead.
21:51 < delinquentme_> you could almost simplify it down to just a on off  and a pot for  frequency
21:51 < delinquentme_> nix almost
21:56 < delinquentme_> jmil, you dont happen to have funding for this do you?
21:57 < jmil> we don't really have funding for this.
21:58 < jmil> ya i have to connect to my laptop every time i want to change the code. flash new firmware on the arduino
21:59 < delinquentme_> well i guess there would be no conflicts w IP then !
22:00 < delinquentme_> I mean I dont see connecting up to it to change the firmware an issue
22:01 < delinquentme_> it would be nice to be able to switch speed w/o uploading
22:02 < jmil> definitely
22:02 < jmil> i almost did that with the makerbot danger shield since i have one lying around. it has REALLY nice manual sliders and a 7 seg LED display. almost all you really need lol
22:05 < delinquentme_> actually thats totally overkill but yeah if you've got one
22:11 < brownies> i'm tuning in late, but... you want to build something that literally shakes in a plane at a set frequency?
22:11 < brownies> looking at your thingiverse posting... that's really cool. why not build more of these and sell 'em ?
22:11 < delinquentme_> brownies, you got it.
22:11 < delinquentme_> ding ding
22:11 < delinquentme_> have a brownies
22:11 < delinquentme_> B]
22:11 < brownies> i'm kind of a noob with biology equipment, heh
22:11 < kanzure> probably because nobody wants to buy them?
22:11 < brownies> then why do they sell for 15,000 ?
22:12 < delinquentme_> hahaha
22:12 < brownies> oh, $1500. still solid.
22:12 < delinquentme_> because kanzure is pessimistic
22:12 < kanzure> i'm not pessimistic.
22:12 < delinquentme_> brownies, i think they'd sell
22:12 < delinquentme_> and I dont need to fucking market research the shit out of a billion companies
22:12 < brownies> i'm easily excited by this sort of thing, tbh, because i like seeing low-cost hardware eat markets, and i have no idea about biology labs and demand levels, so i just assume infinite demand =P
22:13 < kanzure> the grant lifecycle really favors high-cost equipment
22:13 < brownies> btw how did you get it to not generate heat? what about... you know... entropy
22:13 < delinquentme_> jmil, whats the size of the plates?
22:13 < delinquentme_> brownies, it does generate heat
22:13 < delinquentme_> it could probs be less w/o microstepping though
22:13 < ParahSailin> favors high-cost equipment from low-risk (nobody ever got fired for buying from fischer) vendors
22:13 < delinquentme_> hahaha
22:13 < brownies> "The orbital shaker fits inside a standard 37 ºC/5% CO2 cell incubator and puts out no heat"
22:13 < ParahSailin> fisher*
22:14 < brownies> ParahSailin: heh, nice. yeah, that's exactly it.
22:14 < delinquentme_> So I guess the question with low cost equipment is
22:14 < jmil> i used overpowered motors that don't heat up when you give them enough current to shake the plates
22:14 < jmil> 
22:14 < delinquentme_> what can be purchased at the costs of like
22:14 < delinquentme_> petty cash
22:14 < brownies> but since there are tons of labs that have issues with funding and grants and etc, surely there's demand?
22:14 < jmil> brownies: that's what i'm gonna talk about at open hardware summit. we need more open source hardware in science.
22:14 < delinquentme_> brownies, i think so
22:14 < delinquentme_> jmil, you speaking?? cool!
22:14 < brownies> kanzure: y u so pessimistic?
22:14 < jmil> kanzure: there's very little equipment you can buy on a research grant. it's almost all for disposables and salaries
22:14 < ParahSailin> and "no grant ever got rejected for citing the price fisher quotes"
22:14 < kanzure> brownies: i'm not pessimistic. i just said so. :|
22:15 < kanzure> damn why don't you gugys believe me.
22:15 < brownies> kanzure: oh. well, why don't you believe?
22:15 < kanzure> what??
22:15 < jmil> kanzure: buying equipment on grants is very very very difficult
22:15 < jmil> $10k or more, almost impossible
22:15 < jmil> equipment grants themselves are not easy either
22:15 < brownies> jmil: then where does equipment come from?
22:15 < kanzure> jmil: then where does the $40k ultracentrifuge come from
22:15 < jmil> tha'ts been my expeirence
22:16 < brownies> university purchasing departments i guess?
22:16 < jmil> startup funds
22:16 < brownies> ...eh?
22:16 < yashgaroth> 40k ultracentrifuges are shared by several labs or a floor
22:16 < delinquentme_> startup funds for the lab
22:16 < jmil> when you start a lab you have to write down all the high end eqiupment you will EVER need.
22:16 < kanzure> is this the nih "young career" award money thing?
22:16 < jmil> the university invests the funds in you. and then you have to use that equipment forever
22:16 < ParahSailin> the university will give you 500k as a one time lump sum
22:17 < jmil> kanzure: no startup funds mean what ParahSailin said
22:17 < ParahSailin> after that you're on your own for grants
22:17 < jmil> yes
22:17 < brownies> jmil: that seems... suboptimal.
22:17 < delinquentme_> so then what are the pricing parameter which need to be considered jmil
22:17 < jmil> i agree
22:17 < delinquentme_> is it just make it cheap as shit
22:17 < delinquentme_> ?
22:17 < jmil> "cheap as shit and don't burn the place down"
22:17 < brownies> are you seriously suggesting that the most intelligent people in the world got together and devised a system that assumes equipment never breaks down or goes obsolete?
22:17 < delinquentme_> obvs ultracenterfuges aren't on the same level as these shakers
22:17 < brownies> i'll believe it, but... damn.
22:17 < kanzure> brownies: well sometimes labs hire a technician i think
22:17 < kanzure> or there's service contracts on the high-price items
22:18 < jmil> brownies: the cost structure just can't support it. postdocs make below minimum wage
22:18 < jmil> there's almost no money for equipment
22:18 < delinquentme_> brownies, its a system which also includes financing and amortization on equip :D
22:18 < brownies> jmil: are there certifications or something that you can get for your equipment? "we have our equipment tested by CertCo to confirm that this will not stop working tomorrow"
22:18 < ParahSailin> brownies, i question the premise of "most intelligent people in the world"
22:18 < delinquentme_> so really I need to call up private companies
22:18 < delinquentme_> and be like
22:18 < brownies> ParahSailin: well... approximately.
22:18 < delinquentme_> ORBITAL SHAKER
22:18 < jmil> lol
22:18 < delinquentme_> what would you like to pay
22:18 < delinquentme_> but really private companies are where its at
22:18 < delinquentme_> Moneh
22:19 < delinquentme_> ( not the painter )
22:19 < brownies> kanzure, jmil: interesting
22:19 < delinquentme_> woulda been funnier had i spelled it correctly =/
22:19 < delinquentme_> brownies, i thought you were like biotech royalty?
22:19 < delinquentme_> ( for some reason )
22:19 < jmil> delinquentme_: http://summit.oshwa.org/sweet-science-3d-printed-sugar-templates-for-regenerative-medicine/
22:19 < delinquentme_> SV biotech royalty
22:19 < delinquentme_> yeah jmil i just looked up the conference
22:19 < delinquentme_> I maybes should go
22:19 < jmil> sweet
22:20 < jmil> it will be fun. makerfaire is that weekend
22:20 < jmil> all the reprap peeps will be there
22:20 < brownies> delinquentme_: i worked at some... well-equipped... labs before i opted for the glamorous and poverty-stricken life of a startup founder
22:20 < delinquentme_> :D
22:20 < delinquentme_> hey man I
22:20 < delinquentme_> 'm sure you're doing good work
22:21 < delinquentme_> should get some UL shit on it
22:21 < delinquentme_> thats the fortune 500 street cred no?
22:21 < jmil> lol
22:21 < jmil> no money to pay someone to put a UL sticker on it
22:21 < brownies> ah yeah, UL certification, that'd do it
22:22 < jmil> the main reason i don't want to sell hardware is having to deal with angry customers. you can't educate everyone, and open source peeps don't have the funds to pay you for your time troubleshooting. so you end up supporting the community despite having bills to pay
22:23 < kanzure> jmil: why are postdocs okay about working for less than minimum wage?
22:23 < kanzure> alternatively, how skilled of a postdoc can i acquire for $100/hour?
22:23 < jmil> kanzure: because of the love of the science
22:23 < jmil> $100 / hour you can hire someone with 5-10+ yrs
22:23 < delinquentme_> jmil, im OK with charging for service constracts
22:23 < jmil> postdoct
22:24 < kanzure> delinquentme_: you forgot the part where they have no money
22:24 < jmil> kanzure: well at least that's what most postdocs think when they get started. money doesn't buy happiness, and all that jazz
22:24 < delinquentme_> then dont break it
22:25 < delinquentme_> and I dont see why making it simple is difficult
22:25 < delinquentme_> lolwat
22:25 < delinquentme_> jmil, you dont live in SV
22:25 < jmil> postdocs don't strictly get paid hourly. they get paid a stipend. but if you work out the stipend per hour that a good postdoc will spend in the lab then it is around minimum wage or less
22:25 < jmil> SV?
22:25 < delinquentme_> you nedz learn dis
22:25 < delinquentme_> silicon vallye
22:25 < jmil> lol
22:25 < delinquentme_> valley**
22:25 < kanzure> jmil: i was also wondering about how much i would have to pay to hire a novelty soviet scientist
22:25 < kanzure> i think a few are still living
22:26 < delinquentme_> LOL
22:26 < kanzure> it sounds surprisingly affordable..
22:26 < brownies> well, if you assume that the postdoc is "always working" then i guess it does come out pretty low...
22:26 < jmil> kanzure: what are you hiring people for?
22:26 < delinquentme_> hes got to have the right sounding name too
22:26 < brownies> also, doesn't the postdoc usually make stipend + teaching money + something else? fellowship?
22:26 < kanzure> jmil: i have money for open source projects. i am sorta picky though. i am biased.
22:26 < jmil> stipend is about it
22:26 < jmil> brownies: ^^
22:26 < brownies> jmil: well, that's depressing.
22:26 < delinquentme_> if kanzure is paying you make him pay upfront
22:27 < delinquentme_> #SolidAdvice
22:27 < kanzure> upfront is totally okay
22:27 < jmil> kanzure: u mean we could write grants to you? or you are hiring local peeps to work on your open source ideas?
22:27 < kanzure> jmil: uh, you could write grants, but i would prefer you don't write 10 pages before i speak with you
22:27 < jmil> kanzure: is this through a foundation?
22:27 < kanzure> no this is just me doing things?
22:27 < jmil> i'm interested
22:27 < jmil> very interested
22:28 < kanzure> cool.
22:28 < jmil> you are open to ideas from the community or you have speicifc projects you are funding
22:28 < jmil> ?
22:29 < kanzure> i am open to ideas, but again i am heavily biased towards open source hardware and biohacking projects and things..
22:29 < kanzure> i threw this together a while back that highlighted some minor areas: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/diytranshuman_projects.v4.html
22:30 < brownies> are these numbers price goals, or $$ amounts available for funding?
22:30 < kanzure> haha
22:30 < kanzure> i knew someone would ask that
22:30 < kanzure> it's sort of both?
22:30 < brownies> heh.
22:31 < kanzure> i have had a lot of peeps ask me for some rough estimates about projects that we /could/ get done, so i wanted to assemble some pricing information
22:31 < brownies> a modern spectrophotometer costs $20K? damn.
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22:32 < kanzure> brownies: that was nmz787's estimate
22:32 < jmil> kanzure: i could work on #15 :D
22:32 < kanzure> http://openspectrometer.com/
22:32 < kanzure> you were complaining about the video a while back
22:32 < yashgaroth> our nanodrop was like 8k or something
22:33 < kanzure> jmil: ah yeah, you were asking about raising $50k a while back, so i threw it in there :)
22:33 < jmil> nice
22:33 < jmil> any bites kanzure ?
22:33 < delinquentme_> oh and theres already an OS spectrometer
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22:34 < kanzure> jmil: not on that one, no
22:34 < delinquentme_> http://publiclaboratory.org/wiki/spectral-workbench
22:35 < delinquentme_> web cam + DVD chunk and a black box
22:35 < kanzure> also: i would like to point out that none of this makes me pessimistic.
22:35 < kanzure> blah.
22:39 < delinquentme_> so jmil I'm guessing the arduino code is pretty simple?
22:39 < jmil> for the sugar printer or the orbital shaker?
22:39 < delinquentme_> and like it just needs frequency and on / off....
22:40 < delinquentme_> orbital shaker
22:41 < jmil> oh the code is in the thingiverse post
22:41 < jmil> it's like 100 lines of arduino code
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23:37 < kanzure> nmz787: http://publiclaboratory.org/wiki/spectral-workbench
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 30 00:00:23 2012