--- Log opened Sat Aug 25 00:00:06 2012
00:01 < hankx7787__> yeah, where did you ehra bout it?
00:03 < yashgaroth> pretty sure it was on reddit about a dozen times, not that I admit to going there anymore
00:03 < hankx7787__> wut
00:03 < hankx7787__> what subreddits
00:03 < yashgaroth> all of them
00:04 < hankx7787__> I go to reddit all the fucking time and have never seen this
00:04 < delinquentme> ONE BILLION DOLLARS
00:04 < delinquentme> http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/24/3266391/apple-samsung-patent-damages-verdict
00:04 < delinquentme> ( but really )
00:05 < nmz787> i dont go on reddit but maybe 10 times a year
00:05 < nmz787> or less
00:05 < brownies> i heard about it on... irc, i think
00:05 < yashgaroth> sometimes it's tough to pick through the "my atheist cat le derping, dae?" that is reddit nowadays
00:05 < brownies> wow, i am never going to admit that in public. i need a cooler story.
00:06 < brownies> yashgaroth: heh. yeah... lots of noise.
00:06 < yashgaroth> it's sad really...I weep single tears for reddit, every weekend
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00:18 < nmz787> kanzure: you awake?
00:20 < nmz787> where can i post an image quickly?
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00:22 < brownies> imgur.com or minus.com
00:24 < nmz787> backyard brains made a music video http://io9.com/5937406/watch-what-happens-when-you-play-cypress-hill-through-a-squids-fin
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00:32 < nmz787> another with cockroach leg Watch a disembodied cockroach leg dance to the Beastie Boys
00:32 < nmz787> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edEXKiOmPvE&feature=player_embedded#t=720s
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01:26 < nmz787> delinquentme: 10 hour version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clc-UL47D_s
01:27 < delinquentme> OPPAN GANGNAM STYLE
01:27 < delinquentme> OK guys im out ahha
01:27 < delinquentme> NIGHTY
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01:29 < foucist> GANGNAM STYLE helps you code
01:29 < foucist> better
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09:46 <@kanzure> not impressed by that video.
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11:01 < docl> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/New_Cryonet/message/2890
11:01 < docl> Biophysical barriers to reversible cryopresevation
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11:27 < eudoxia> I started that thread <3
11:29  * docl helped :)
11:32 < docl> Hmm, Mike didn't say anything about waterjets or lasers. I wonder if they are just as damaging as knives where soft tissue is concerned.
11:33 < docl> Google is failing me when I search for waterjets and histology. Any ideas on more keywords to use?
11:35 < docl> Apparently they work for laser eye surgery: http://www.victorwhite.com/SAliances/visijet/index.htm
11:37 < eudoxia> maybe thinner diamond knives (made with MNT?) would reduce the damage to tissue
11:37 < docl> That's an idea.
11:37 < docl> http://www.onepetro.org/mslib/servlet/onepetropreview?id=SPE-98592-MS
11:37 < eudoxia> but I don't know how thin the average ultramicrotome knife is
11:38 < docl> "High-pressure water jet injuries from high-pressure jet devices are surgical emergencies characterized by small entry wounds with extensive internal damage. Often subtle and inconspicuous on initial clinical presentation, these injuries can lead to potentially extensive tissue damage underneath."
11:42 < docl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoknife
11:43 < docl> Sounds like they are still fixing the tissue prior to slicing with this.
11:43 < docl> http://iopscience.iop.org/0957-4484/20/9/095701
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11:47 < eudoxia> "One can imagine that CNTs could cut vitreous water, vitrified cells, and other comparatively soft materials in the same way"
11:48 < docl> At least it's useful for scanning vitreous tissue once you get it there.
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11:49 < eudoxia> yet so far all the samples have been a few microns in size
11:50 < eudoxia> i wonder if it's possible to drive the nanotube to a sample while holding either end centimeters apart
11:50 < eudoxia> through
11:50 < eudoxia> *
11:51 < docl> I'm starting to lean more and more towards Mike's idea of replacing all the water with molecules that can be polymerized. Once it stiffens, you could slice it up a lot more easily.
11:56 < docl> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/New_Cryonet/message/2896
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12:41 < docl> http://www.hartnell.edu/faculty/aedens/Bio1/Bio1osmosisII.doc
12:42 < docl> Osmosis and cells.
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12:46 < docl> Ah, hydrophillic molecules have a hard time entering cells because cell membranes are hydrophobic. Doubly so for myelinated brain cells, I imagine.
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12:50 < docl> On the other hand, transport proteins in the membrane can make it selectively permeable. If you could populate the membranes with the right transport proteins, perhaps that's a way around the cryoprotectant delivery problem.
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12:56 < docl> alcohols and sugars have lots of OH groups. that makes them more polar and thus more hydrophillic. less hydrophillic than ions though.
12:57 < docl> actually Mike says
12:57 < docl> cryoprotectants are fat soluble
12:57 < eudoxia> re myelinated axons, maybe the vesicles carrying glycerol can be transported down the axon through axoplasmic transport
12:57 < docl> I guess that means hydrophobic
12:57 < eudoxia> but i doubt kinesin will reliably work after arrest
12:57 < docl> which lets them more easily penetrate the cells
12:59 < docl> there's a thought
12:59 < docl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axoplasmic_transport
13:00 < eudoxia> this could also be related to your(?) idea of having genetically engineered cells produce cryoprotectant
13:00 < eudoxia> vesicles could be strategically laid out across the length of the axon and opened by autolytic enzymes after arrest
13:00 < eudoxia> self-perfusion
13:01 < docl> nice
13:05 < eudoxia> of course, there are probably a million holes with that idea, but I'm too afraid to ask Darwin because I'll die of shaem
13:05 < eudoxia> shame*
13:06 < docl> yeah I get that...
13:07 < docl> I felt bad about not remembering the myelenation thing because Darwin had already explained it to me in person.
13:11 <@kanzure> https://www.openwetware.org/wiki/OpenWetWare:Design/T-shirt
13:12 < docl> Gotta be a newbie sometime I guess :/
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13:17 < docl> kanzure, I was wondering if that was a pickle and an apple high-fiving until I did a mouseover and saw it was yeast and e. coli.
13:24 < docl> eudoxia, I wonder if the axoplasmic transport system could get the CPAs there fast enough?
13:24 < docl> "Vesicular cargoes move relatively fast (50-400 mm/day) whereas transport of proteins takes much longer (moving at less than 8 mm/day)." (from wikipedia)
13:24 < eudoxia> >Vesicular cargoes move relatively fast (50-400 mm/day)
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13:25 < docl> hmm, that's millimeters. so we're talking less than a centimeter per day. how long are axons typically?
13:26 < eudoxia> i was just looking into that
13:26 < eudoxia> It would take little over a day to 'perfuse' the spinal cord this way
13:27 < eudoxia> which is good, since the postmortem examination of Janice Foote showed her spine was transected in two places :/
13:27 < eudoxia> (good as in, perfusing the spinal cord, bad since it takes so long)
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13:29 < docl> how reversible is myelin damage? maybe it could be dissolved temporarily and grown back over time?
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13:30 < eudoxia> i suppose myelin can be regrown, but my main concern is that if the inside of the axon is not vitrified, it could cause severe ice damage
13:30 < eudoxia> you're asking if axons could be unmyelinated for perfusion?
13:31 < docl> "Axons are in effect the primary transmission lines of the nervous system, and as bundles they help make up nerves. The length of axons is highly dependent on its location within the body. Some axons can extend up to one meter or more while others stretch to as little as one millimeter (inhibitory interneurons). The longest axons in the human body, for example, are those of the sciatic nerve, which run from the base of the spine to the big toe of eac
13:31 < docl> h foot. These single-cell fibers of the sciatic nerve may extend a meter or even longer."
13:31 < docl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axons
13:31 < docl> yes
13:32 < docl> maybe attack them with a custom virus or something
13:34 < eudoxia> okay, so there are 85 billion neurons in the brain, and a 20 year old male has 176000 kilometers of axon (in the white matter), so the average cerebral axon length is 2 millimeters
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13:35 < eudoxia> it would take 7 minutes and 12 seconds to get glycerol vesicles from the soma to the end of the axon
13:35 <@kanzure> hrrm http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://model.mit.edu/endipedia/*
13:35 < docl> great!
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13:36 < docl> we probably don't need to worry about the meter-long ones too much. it's blood vessels being ripped away from the tissue due to shrinkage that is the problem.
13:37 < eudoxia> well who cares about the spinal cord anyways if it's just a bundle of axons
13:37 < brownies> did you guys see the bit about the injection that can oxygenate blood directly? thought it was pretty clever molecule engineering
13:37 < docl> yeah I saw that
13:37 < docl> pretty awesome
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13:41 < Lukas_> Good afternoon
13:41 < docl> Howdy
13:42 < Lukas_> I am looking for the general price range of a Utah Array
13:42 < Lukas_> google isn't yielding anything useful
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13:47 < Lukas_> or 'Multielectrode Array'
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13:57 < archels> Lukas_: Thinking about implanting one, are we?
13:58 < Lukas_> archels: perhaps.  Do you know?
13:59 < archels> Generally speaking, electrodes are a terrible way of interfacing with neurons.
13:59 < archels> Utah arrays offer terrible resolution.
14:00 < delinquentme> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3KxU63gcF4
14:00 < delinquentme> this is so crazy
14:00 < archels> And you will get rejection issues, with consequent signal degredation/loss within a year.
14:00 < Lukas_> 1) What is a better way?  2) Do you still know the price of one?
14:00 < delinquentme> Such a nano-machine exhibits all the characteristics of super-intelligent design. ATP is vital for life and many of these motors were needed before the first living cell could exist. An evolutionary impossibility!
14:00 < delinquentme> http://creation.com
14:01 < archels> A better way is optogenetics in combination with a camera. This is a procedure that's very common on lab animals these days; not aware of any crazy biohackers who've done it on themselves yet.
14:01 < wizaqua> Define irony:  a creationist proselytizing in a  H-Plus  channel
14:01 < archels> May reach biohacker territory within a few years.
14:01 < Lukas_> As we know that level of engineering is out of reach for now
14:02 < AdrienG> ive heard engineers are on average more religious
14:02 < AdrienG> they expect there to be the chief engineer.
14:02 < archels> Lukas_: no, it exists, and it's in daily use in dozens of labs around the world.
14:02 < Lukas_> sorry, I mean for DIY people
14:02 < archels> yes, as is a Utah array.
14:02 < Lukas_> Warwick implanted himself with one ten years ago
14:03 < archels> Possibly you could obtain one if you cough up some four-figure amount.
14:04 < archels> It's not worth it.
14:04 < Lukas_> yea, especially with what we'd be spending
14:04 < archels> I would say mostly given what you get out of it (or lack thereof).
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14:05 < archels> delinquentme: haha, I was like 'wait, what?' at the end
14:05 < archels> 'an evolutionary impossibility'
14:06 < archels> kanzure: srsly, when are people going to start injecting retrovirii into themselves?
14:06 < Lukas_> soon
14:06 < Lukas_> archels: Thank you very much
14:06 < delinquentme> archels, I mean ... at least they're KIND of keeping up with their science
14:06 < delinquentme> lol
14:06 < archels> Why not now? The technology is not only out there, it's common.
14:06 < delinquentme> the conclusions are kind of presumptuous
14:06 < Lukas_> I have no clue
14:07 < Lukas_> I'd love to know
14:07 < Lukas_> thanks a lot, I am going to look around for ways around this ....
14:08 < archels> Lukas_: If you want to learn stuff that's future proof, stop reading about electrodes, and starting reading about optogenetics.
14:08  * archels wonders what the carcinogenity of retrovirus injection is
14:09 < archels> Possible way around this: (1) extract cells from human; (2) culture; (3) apply retrovirus; (4) replace cells into subject that were successfully altered
14:09 < archels> Can any of you bio people comment on this?
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14:13 < delinquentme> hankx7787__, WOMP WOMP!
14:14 < hankx7787__> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
14:15 < delinquentme> does anyone know of any robots running on a raspberry pi?
14:16 < ParahSailin_> i dont think anyone has an rpi yet
14:16 < delinquentme> certain to penetrate the foundations of modern philosophy.
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14:21 < yashgaroth> archels: what are you asking about retroviruses specifically
14:22 < yashgaroth> using them on extracted cells won't lower the cancer risk at all
14:22 < yashgaroth> and I sure hope you're not talking about doing that with neurons, they're kind of hard to extract and replace
14:23 < archels> yashgaroth: But once we ascertain of a particular subset of culture cells that the procedure worked without side effects, can it be considered safe (read: sane) to put them back into a human body?
14:23 < archels> and no, not neurons, let's say epithelial cells
14:23 < yashgaroth> you can't sort them by how badly their genome has been fucked up, and if you're picking them to expand that will take a very long time
14:24 < yashgaroth> since they divide once a day and primary cells are a bitch to culture
14:24 < archels> mhm, but they apparently found ways to deal with this when it comes to rodents.
14:24 < yashgaroth> deal with what
14:25 < archels> All this stuff that will go wrong in doing reverse transcription.
14:25 < yashgaroth> reverse transcription isn't the worry, the integration is
14:25 < archels> sure, I meant the procedure from A to Z
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14:26 < yashgaroth> but yes there is work on getting an integrase that has preferred sites that aren't near oncogenes
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14:26 < archels> "make your fingernails glow green!"
14:26 < archels> ^ How long is this going to take?
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14:26 < yashgaroth> until your body recognized GFP is foreign and destroys your fingernails*
14:27 < archels> Why doesn't this happen in rodents?
14:27 < yashgaroth> it does, or commonly they're bred to have shit immune systems
14:27 < archels> ah, I wasn't aware of this.
14:28 < yashgaroth> it's generally a good thing, since if you didn't have it you'd be dead
14:28 < archels> This happens even if you don't overexpress gene products to the extreme?
14:28 < yashgaroth> you might get lucky for a while, or even forever...such is biology
14:28 < yashgaroth> the main problem is how to make the immune system tolerant to a protein of our choice
14:29 < strangewarp> Well then, the obvious solution is to zap the native immune system, and build a custom-tailored immune system from the ground up. Easy peasy
14:29 < yashgaroth> so you make it ignore the viral vector and the gene product by making it think they're self-antigens, or by killing any cell that reacts to them
14:30 < yashgaroth> but we don't know how to do either, at least not reliably
14:30 < archels> yashgaroth: Where does the immune system attack? Provided none of these protein products make it outside the cell or even to the membrane, it has to be some sort of apoptotic process?
14:30 < yashgaroth> all cells display fragments of proteins on their surface, which are checked by immune cells
14:30 < yashgaroth> see: major histocompatibility complex
14:31 < archels> aha, maybe this is a pathway amenable to intervention.
14:31 < yashgaroth> believe me, viruses have tried that
14:32 < archels> heh, good point.
14:32 < yashgaroth> it's going to be a little difficult to design a protein that blocks the immune system, without creating a supervirus
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14:32 < archels> nod
14:33 < Burn_> isn't that what successful viruses *do*?
14:33 <@kanzure> optogenetics is not going to replace electrodes
14:33 <@kanzure> anselm loves to rant about how much his optogenetics work sucks
14:34 < archels> anselm who?
14:34 <@kanzure> http://anselmlevskaya.com/
14:34 <@kanzure> he lives with fenn
14:35 < archels> well, I'd love to discuss this with him
14:35 < archels> I suppose present-day optogenetics suffers from these same immune system responses.
14:35 < Burn_> I was under the impression that a crippled virus with its anti-immune / replication machinery intact but its "payload" disabled was a laboratory-grade tool
14:35 < yashgaroth> anti-immune/replication machinery is the payload
14:36 <@kanzure> archels: he replies to the diybio list if you write something interesting
14:36 < yashgaroth> we don't exploit their ability to avoid the immune system, since cells used in the laboratory are outside of a body and outside of an immune system
14:37 < archels> "cells used in the laboratory are outside of a body" seems an overgeneralisation?
14:38 < yashgaroth> yes, I forgot lab animals
14:38 < Burn_> HSV possesses multiple features that make it an ideal vector
14:38 < Burn_> for delivery of genes into the nervous system. In particular,
14:38 < Burn_> it accepts large molecules of exogenous DNA; it infects nondividing
14:38 < Burn_> cells from a wide range of hosts with high efficiency;
14:38 < Burn_> it enables strong expression of foreign genes; it is
14:38 < Burn_> episomal, and thereby does not cause integration effects;
14:38 < Burn_> its infection of postmitotic cells is persistent; and HSV-1
14:38 < Burn_> particles can be concentrated to relatively high titers. Because
14:38 < Burn_> of these characteristics of HSV-1, and because it is
14:38 < Burn_> neurotropic, it is currently one of the best viral vectors available
14:38 < Burn_> for functional analysis of genes in the nervous system.
14:39 < yashgaroth> yes
14:39 < Burn_> HSV genome are dispensable for its
14:39 < Burn_> growth in cells in vitro. This knowledge was used to create
14:39 < Burn_> ‘‘crippled’’ recombinant HSV-1 viruses that could be used
14:39 < Burn_> as vectors for gene transfer into cells
14:40 < yashgaroth> and?
14:40 < yashgaroth> I wasn't implying people don't use viruses
14:40 < Burn_> sorry, I'm woefully ignorant about this stuff
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14:41 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene-therapy/ could use some contributions if you guys want to complain about those things
14:42 < Burn_> In gene therapy, why do the immune cells not destroy the cells infected with the delivery virus?
14:43 < yashgaroth> they do
14:43 < yashgaroth> that's why it's common to use heavy amounts of immunosuppressives
14:44 < yashgaroth> and, since the gene they're delivering with said therapy is likely not already made by the patient's cells, the immune system will attack that too
14:44 < Burn_> and the virus isn't even programmed to replicatie in vivo?
14:44 < yashgaroth> never
14:44 < Burn_> requiring a means of conjuring up whole grams of in vitro viral cultures
14:45 < Burn_> which I'm not sure is even a thing
14:45 < yashgaroth> no, it is
14:45 < Lukas_> Kanzure: What is your input on utah arrays?
14:45 < yashgaroth> it's rather expensive though, and you wouldn't believe the regulations on that stuff
14:46 < Burn_> Do they go whole-hog with gene therapy and do total body radiaton / isolation room?  or just mild immunosuppressants
14:47 < yashgaroth> not that there's been a lot of trials, but generally it'd be quite heavy
14:47 < yashgaroth> it really only becomes practical when you have a serious condition
14:47 <@kanzure> Lukas_: have fun reading about em.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/implants/
14:47 <@kanzure> i also have some links there for purchasing utah array things
14:48 <@kanzure> .. somewhere
14:48 < Lukas_> If you find them please let me know
14:48 < Lukas_> and thank you
14:48 <@kanzure> i meant, in that folder.
14:49 <@kanzure> docl: you could also check out what 3scan uses for their ultramicrotome knifes
14:50 <@kanzure> knives.
14:50 < Lukas_> ah, sweet.  I'll start reading through it
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14:53 < yashgaroth> I should clarify my last statement with 'and are using viral vectors to deliver a protein your body doesn't recognize'
14:53 <@kanzure> neil armstrong died? fuck
14:54 <@kanzure> now who do we have to represent the human race? that drunk one?
14:54 < yashgaroth> he was so disappointed in his son's doping scandal
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15:04 < loanshark> hello
15:05 < OldCoder> loanshark, hi again
15:05 < OldCoder> kanzure, hi
15:06 < loanshark> :3
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16:10 < OldCoder> loanshark, wb here too
16:11 < loanshark> aaty
16:11 < loanshark> why is kanzure dubious?
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16:13 < loanshark> hi syloh
16:14 < loanshark> sylph_mako*
16:17 < sylph_mako> hello. Allow me to introduce myself. I'm a student of logic and computation who digs interface design and systems programming, I also analyze the fuck out of every piece of culture I come across, this usually results in staunch separatism/radicalism.
16:17 < loanshark> hello
16:17 < loanshark> :3
16:18 < loanshark> i am interested in making organisms glow under a blacklight
16:18 < loanshark> ^^
16:18 < sylph_mako> Ah. I'm not the guy to talk to for that.
16:19 < loanshark> :3
16:20 < nmz787> hi sylph_mako
16:20 < klafka1> i'm interested in the transcendent bliss of learning a system whose accuracy approaches the bayes error of the model
16:23 < loanshark> can i discuss some simple genetic engineering with someone?
16:23 <@kanzure> fuck blacklights
16:24 < loanshark> O.o
16:24 < loanshark> whats wrong with backlights?
16:24 < brownies> i am interested in engineering a glowing cat
16:24 < loanshark> same premises as replicating GloFish isn't it?
16:25 < brownies> perhaps
16:26 < loanshark> brownies how would you engineer a glowing cat?
16:26 < loanshark> :3
16:26 < loanshark> interested in your method
16:26 < brownies> by adding GFP to a regular cat
16:26 < brownies> i'm hazy on the details beyond that
16:26 < loanshark> xD
16:27 < loanshark> i was looking for the details
16:27 < loanshark> you add a gene that makes GFP to a kitty embryo
16:28 < yashgaroth> pretty much
16:28 < loanshark> you can get that gene from squid
16:28 < yashgaroth> or a vendor
16:29 < loanshark> isolate it (i don't know how), create a plasmid and then clone it with bacteria
16:30 < loanshark> squid is cheaper than a vendor
16:30 < loanshark> but making a plasmid is hard
16:30 < yashgaroth> haha no
16:31 < loanshark> how come squid is not cheaper than a vendor?
16:31 < brownies> because squids are free range
16:31 < yashgaroth> a. it's a fucking jellyfish
16:31 < loanshark>  i found a site that sells primers for $4.90 each, any length
16:32 < loanshark> o.o
16:32 < yashgaroth> b. it's one specific species of jellyfish
16:32 < loanshark> uhhhh
16:32 < loanshark> O.o
16:32 < loanshark> squids aren't jellyfish
16:32 < yashgaroth> no shit sherlock
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16:32 < loanshark> o.o
16:32 < nmz787> or... just buy a glofish from your local pet store
16:32 < brownies> yashgaroth: hahaha
16:33 < nmz787> or... google the sequence, and have it synthesized
16:33 < nmz787> kanzure: http://staff.aist.go.jp/zhen.yang/socket2_english.htm
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16:33 < bkero> Danger
16:33 < nmz787> kanzure: http://staff.aist.go.jp/zhen.yang/world-to-chip_socket.htm
16:33 < bkero> I am stuck in Minneapolis
16:33 < bkero> send halp
16:33 < bkero> kanzure: who do we know in MSP?
16:33 <@kanzure> uhh
16:33 <@kanzure> jeremiah petit
16:34 < bkero> o?
16:34 <@kanzure> jeremiah petit <mdredeemer@gmail.com>
16:34 <@kanzure> 612-267-2542
16:34 <@kanzure> mention my name and he'll probably be down for things
16:34 < bkero> 2nd tier connection on linkedin
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16:35 < bkero> hrm
16:36 < loanshark> yashgaroth: you sir, are an asshole
16:36 <@kanzure> but he's right all the time, so we keep him around
16:36 < yashgaroth> I'm not the one who expects to get taught the entirety of biology via irc
16:36 < yashgaroth> every week someone comes in and has the exact same questions
16:37 < yashgaroth> hi I don't know the first thing about biology but I want to make my cat glow
16:37 < loanshark> well I'm sorry that i haven't gone to college for bioengineering
16:37 < yashgaroth> here's a book to read
16:37 < yashgaroth> oh I don't read books
16:37 < yashgaroth> you don't need to go to college for this
16:37 < yashgaroth> but it's a lot of information
16:38 < yashgaroth> go on the internet, find a textbook, start reading; none of the information in there isn
16:38 < loanshark> I have molecular biology of the gene
16:38 < yashgaroth> 't worthwhile
16:38 < yashgaroth> ok get readin'
16:38 < loanshark> and molecular biology of the cell
16:38 < bkero> pinginated
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16:39 < loanshark> i haven't seen anything in those books on the actual practical side of things
16:39 < nmz787> loanshark: i like mol bio of the gene
16:39 < loanshark> which is what i came here to try to understand
16:39 < brownies> yashgaroth: hahah
16:39 < yashgaroth> you'll understand why they're practical when you have to troubleshoot your pcr
16:39 < brownies> i like how "glowing cat" has become the canonical dumb question
16:39 < yashgaroth> or do anything outside of following a protocol for that matter
16:39 < nmz787> loanshark: there is also diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio
16:39 < nmz787> diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/
16:39 < brownies> i searched on amazon for "engineering a glowing cat for dummies" but no luck
16:39 < nmz787> brownies: lol
16:40 <@kanzure> what's the max dosage of uv radiation for a cat anyway?
16:40 < chris_99> but doesn't this mean wherever you're cat go's you have to shine a UV light on it, i'd count that as a big disadvantage
16:41 < chris_99> heh good point kanzure
16:41 < brownies> chris_99: attach a UV light to the collar, genius
16:41 <@kanzure> chris_99: yes.. uv sucks
16:41 < nmz787> anyone in here know pyBrain?
16:41 <@kanzure> i mean, gfp sucks, not uv
16:41 <@kanzure> klafka might know pybrain
16:41 < brownies> alright, forget GFP, we'll get some of the bioluminescent stuff from those jellyfish
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16:41 <@kanzure> so, avery did jellyfish gfp extraction i think
16:42 <@kanzure> at bosslab
16:42 < hankx7787> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
16:42 < loanshark> yashgartoth: i have no intention of doing any genetic experiments for at least a year. I understand there is a lot to learn and i would like my first project to be engineering GloFish because from what i have read it seems achievable in a 'garage' laboratory
16:42 <@kanzure> hankx7787: what is it?
16:42 < brownies> you can make glowing fish in a garage?
16:42 < chris_99> some strange music video kanzure
16:43 <@kanzure> oops, i mean avery was doing squid gfp extraction (or, it's one of the microbes it has on its skin?)
16:43 < yashgaroth> yeah squid are symbiotic with some glowing bacteria
16:43 <@kanzure> right
16:43 < ParahSailin_> humans and an obscure opossum are the only animals that can get skin cancer from uv alone
16:44 <@kanzure> ParahSailin_: is there a citation for this
16:44 < ParahSailin_> boox
16:44 <@kanzure> botox?
16:44 < yashgaroth> loanshark you'll need to be doing microinjection even for fish, which is really beyond 'garage' at the moment
16:44 < loanshark> yashgaroth: so your advice for someone trying to understand the practical side of genetic engineering outside of a college and with no access to a laboratory is pretty much "fuck off"
16:44 <@kanzure> loanshark: no
16:44 <@kanzure> not at all
16:44 < loanshark> thats what it sounded like
16:44 < yashgaroth> no, read a book without complaining that every page is not "step X in making a cat glow"
16:45 <@kanzure> maybe you just don't like his answers
16:45 < loanshark> i was not complaing
16:45 < loanshark> when did i complain
16:45 <@kanzure> you just did..
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16:45 < loanshark> i was asking and trying to get information so i can piece it together in my head
16:45 <@kanzure> have you read the faq yet?
16:45 < loanshark> when did i complain about there not being step-by-step instructions on how to make glowing fish?
16:46 < loanshark> Kanzure: i did
16:46 < yashgaroth> [16:39:10] .:loanshark:. i haven't seen anything in those books on the actual practical side of things
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16:47 <@kanzure> also i linked you to protocol-online.org for the superpractical-side of things
16:47 < brownies> i think this brings up an interesting thought though
16:47 < brownies> there really ought to be a reading list
16:47 < loanshark> practical as in using primers in a pcr
16:47 < brownies> otherwise the "read a book" train of thought is just... not very good.
16:47 <@kanzure> brownies: a reading list of what, papers?
16:48 < brownies> kanzure: books
16:48 < nmz787> well honestly reading the book is what you get when you go to college
16:48 < brownies> for beginners to go from noob to not-noob
16:48 < yashgaroth> oh, molecular cloning: a lab manual is a good one too
16:48 < nmz787> loanshark: there may be some online bio courses you could watch
16:48 < ParahSailin_> http://vet.sagepub.com/content/28/1/55.full.pdf
16:48 <@kanzure> really you just need one primary-molecular-biology book, maaaybe a microbiology book, and then protocols
16:48 < ParahSailin_> i remembered slightly incorrectly
16:48 < loanshark> nmz787: like college courses?
16:49 < brownies> kanzure: you understand how useless that is right
16:49 <@kanzure> brownies: that's what biology has
16:49 <@kanzure> brownies: yes i do understand how useless it is
16:49 < brownies> a list of links to specific books
16:49 <@kanzure> brownies: but that doesn't mean you should give up
16:49 <@kanzure> brownies: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/better-questions/#books
16:49 < brownies> kanzure: that is not useful
16:49 < yashgaroth> surely there's some MIT lecture video where a guy rambles for 3 hours about gene manipulation
16:49 <@kanzure> also..
16:49 < brownies> "yeah, bro, just learn about molecular biology and lab procedures"
16:49 <@kanzure> brownies: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/educational/#index4h1
16:49 < nmz787> ParahSailin_: that doesn't seem to say ONLY humans and that opposum get UV induced cancer
16:49 < brownies> "here's a link to a high school textbook on introductory biology."
16:50 < brownies> do you see the disconnect?
16:50 < brownies> do you see the missing piece? -_-
16:50 < ParahSailin_> <ParahSailin_> i remembered slightly incorrectly
16:50 < brownies> kanzure: ah ok. that second link is much better.
16:50 <@kanzure> brownies: there's also that student 'synthetic biology for n00bs' comic
16:50 <@kanzure> *stupid
16:50 < nmz787> brownies: loanshark: in biotech college i watched lectures, attended labs, and read the book... then i found DIYbio
16:51 <@kanzure> this might be good to read too:
16:51 <@kanzure> http://openwetware.org/wiki/Image:SB_Primer_100707.pdf
16:51 < nmz787> but you really need to read the book, because ppl don't want to re-write the book in IRC
16:51 < yashgaroth> especially not me, and especially not when I'm sober
16:51 < loanshark> nmz787: i can't go to college for 4 years
16:52 <@kanzure> loanshark: why not??
16:52 < nmz787> yes that SB primer looks good
16:52 <@kanzure> sign up for a community college class. they can't discriminate based on prior felonies or w/e.
16:52 < loanshark> nmz787: I am in the military. I can't do any intensive courses because my job can get very intensive
16:52 < loanshark> and i will have to miss school
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16:52 < nmz787> loanshark: that's why i said online classes
16:53 < nmz787> where it's just a flash video of a real MIT lecture
16:53 < nmz787> and links to the lab protocols
16:53 < yashgaroth> oh molecular cell biology is a good book too
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16:54 <@kanzure> brownies: please clarify on what level of reasonable you think http://openwetware.org/wiki/Image:SB_Primer_100707.pdf is
16:54 < nmz787> kanzure: what was that wikipedia book cathal wrote
16:54 < loanshark> nmz787: i want to steer clear of biomedical engineering right? it sounds more like interfacing biology with medical diagnostic and life support systems
16:55 <@kanzure> nmz787: it was just a collection of wikipedia articles
16:55 < nmz787> loanshark: unless you like that kind of stuff
16:55 < yashgaroth> BME is all implants and junk
16:55 < nmz787> loanshark: it's more macro sized engineering than engineering DNA
16:55 < nmz787> loanshark: what yashgaroth said
16:55 < loanshark> nmz787: more interested in the engineering of DNA
16:55 < yashgaroth> there's more fluid dynamics than...biology
16:56 < nmz787> kanzure: yeah do you know how to find it
16:56 < nmz787> what yashgaroth said
16:56 < loanshark> ok, i g2g, but ill bbl
16:56 < nmz787> cool
16:56 < nmz787> see ya
16:56 < loanshark> thanks for the links to those biology pages :)
16:57 <@kanzure> bleh
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17:03 <@kanzure> http://igem.org/README
17:03 < nmz787> weird
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17:12 < brownies> kanzure: skimming the table of contents, it looks solid.
17:12 < brownies> i do not think it is unreasonable to ask that people have a basic scientific foundation and common-sense biology knowledge (e.g. "what is DNA") before engaging with this stuff
17:19 <@kanzure> oh so there is a high school igem this year http://2012hs.igem.org/Main_Page
17:19 <@kanzure> uh.. was.
17:20 <@kanzure> the austin team withdrew? damn it
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17:47 <@kanzure> wtf openwetware was given $1mil
17:47 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
17:48 < foucist> but not diybio is that it/ :P
17:48 <@kanzure> hrm?
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18:10 < delinquentme> Does anyone know *definitively* if the OSH logo is allowed to be displayed along side of other logos ... so long as the collective work is open source?
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18:15 <@kanzure> delinquentme: i think they were going to have a trademark approval process
18:15 <@kanzure> but i haven't heard anything about it recently
18:16 < delinquentme> so like I could display my logo w the OSH logo w/o any issues?
18:16 < delinquentme> is there like a primary governing body on this?
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18:33 <@kanzure> delinquentme: which OSH logo? the OSHWA logo is from OSHWA
18:33 <@kanzure> the other OSH logo is probably from bruce perens
18:34 <@kanzure> so what's the deal with openwetware anyway?
18:34 <@kanzure> it looks like they fired bill flanagan in 2008
18:34 <@kanzure> and nobody has been steering the ship since then
18:35 < foucist> kanzure: is your primary os linux?
18:38 <@kanzure> foucist: yes. but i also have images of mac, windows, android and some other crap laying around.
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21:35 <@kanzure> boop
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21:41 <@kanzure> win 4
21:41 <@kanzure> ifjdkaslfj;asd
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22:16 < foucist> esc 4
22:16 < foucist> alt 4
22:16 < foucist> be-a-real-man 4
22:19 <@kanzure> :(
22:19 <@kanzure> alt 4 is mapped to my terminal instead
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22:20 < foucist> ah, why not use esc instead?  i do
22:20 <@kanzure> oh look, esc-4 works.
22:20 <@kanzure> hooray
22:20 < foucist> ;)
22:20 <@kanzure> what about esc-138?
22:20 < foucist> esc-0 is for win 10, then it carries over to the next row.. esc-q for 11
22:21 < foucist> yeah have to use /w 138 for 138 i reckon
22:21 <@kanzure> esc-j doesn't seem to do anything
22:22 < foucist> i haven't had any problems up to 18 windows, not sure about beyond
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22:24 <@kanzure> "ince 911 Snail mail can take weeks to arrive. Everything that is sent to the Hill in DC is sent out for anthrax screening. It is very difficult to send reactionary issue snail mail unless it is hand delivered."
22:24 <@kanzure> hmm who is the company who is doing the anthrax screening?
22:26 <@kanzure> *that is doing
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--- Log closed Sun Aug 26 00:00:07 2012