--- Log opened Mon Sep 17 00:00:28 2012
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00:37 < skorket> nmz787, not sure if you're interested, but I just altered grbl to give back some feedback about position, current feed/seek rate and spindle settings
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00:47 < skorket> almost there.  Think I'm getting too tired to continue tonight, but I'm close
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07:39 < delinquentme> kanzure, whats up with those papers on TPB and why did it take so long?
07:39 < delinquentme> I thought it was already out there seeing?
07:44 < kanzure> sense your messages do not make
07:44 < chris_99> what's on TPB?
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07:55 < skorket> the pirate bay
07:55 < skorket> I bet you meant 'seeding' not 'seeing'
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08:08 < kanzure> skorket: yes we know what the pirate bay is.
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08:08 < skorket> whoops, misread it, my bad
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08:29 < kirka> Hi
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08:29 < kirka> Did somebody work on nanoengineer-1 chroot?
08:29 < kirka> I\m trying to get it working
08:30 < kirka> kanzure: I have "main.py: cannot connect to X server :0.0"
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08:38 < kirka> So, QT4 doesn't load
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08:56 < kirka> Yeah, I started it
08:56 < kirka> Some xhost shamanism and voila
08:59 < kirka> Slooow~
08:59 < kirka> That's becaouse of lack of powerful 3d accelerator
08:59 < kirka> *because
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09:10 < kirka> But again, that's not so heavy 3D graphics, and it's only ~5 fps
09:10 < kirka> Solidworks runs quite large models smoothly on my PC
09:10 < strangewarp> hmmm
09:10 < strangewarp> http://craphound.com/rotn/Cory_Doctorow_and_Charles_Stross_-_Rapture_of_the_Nerds.html
09:11 < strangewarp> For those of you who like novels.
09:11 < kirka> I wonder, if linear algebra behind model drawing in NE1 is calculated in python
09:15 < kirka> strangewarp Too popular, I suggest
09:19 < strangewarp> Bah, it's okay to indulge in popular entertainment, just so long as you have well-tended gardens of internal criticism ;)
09:21 < kirka> I don't have time to do that
09:22  * strangewarp nods..
09:23 < jrayhawk> kirka: you can 'for i in tmp proc dev; do mount --bind /$i /path/to/chroot/$i; done'
09:24 < jrayhawk> which gets you the X socket in /tmp and /dev/dri
09:24 < jrayhawk> which means you'll be running at native speed
09:25 < kirka> jrayhawk: Thanks
09:25 < kirka> jrayhawk: Are you involved with NE1?
09:26 < jrayhawk> I probably helped construct that chroot, but I've never run NE1 myself.
09:27 < jrayhawk> I think I tried briefly and decided I hated Python.
09:27 < kirka> I don't like it at all too, actually.
09:28 < kirka> But NE1 is the only program of it's kind.
09:29 < kirka> If I had a lot of time (2-4 months) I probably coul rewrite subset of it in more portable language
09:30 < kirka> But there are 34 MB of dources, it's quite big.
09:30 < jrayhawk> python's pretty portable; it's more the unstable API that's the issue
09:31 < kirka> Yes, that;s what i don't like most
09:32 < Urchin> I really hate programming languages that change on you suddenly
09:32 < jrayhawk> It's amusing that futurists didn't choose a future-proof language.
09:32 < kirka> Heh
09:32 < Urchin> what would be a modern future-proof language?
09:32 < kirka> I'm not GUI programmer at all
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09:33 < jrayhawk> C, C++, and, remarkably, Perl
09:33 < eudoxia> kanzure, yesterday you were wondering whether NE1 ran on Windows 7
09:33 < eudoxia> it does
09:33 < jrayhawk> not that i would suggest writing a program of this scale in perl
09:33 < eudoxia> though apparently it only runs on my Win 7
09:33 < chris_99> why perl?
09:33 < kirka> Urchin Maybe something VM-based with unambigous specification like JVM.
09:33 < Urchin> perl is mostly frozen
09:34 < kirka> eudoxia How did you managed to run it?
09:34 < jrayhawk> perl has, like, twenty years of demonstrated backwards compatibility
09:34 < Urchin> I have considered C and Perl
09:34 < eudoxia> kirka I didn't do anything out of the ordinary, just download install
09:34 < Urchin> C++ i better avoided
09:34 < kirka> eudoxia I'll try now
09:35 < jrayhawk> with C++0x, c++ is actually a halfway decent language now
09:35 < kirka> Too large spec
09:35 < jrayhawk> you can treat it with C with typeclasses!
09:35 < kirka> Platforms change
09:35 < jrayhawk> s/treat it with/treat it as/
09:35 < eudoxia> C has changed so little it's rather annoying
09:36 < Urchin> eudoxia: that's it's good side, like I said, I hate languages changing on me
09:36 < kirka> Software like NE1 should have portable IO layer for display and mouse/keyboard io
09:36 < Urchin> and it's fairly capable to begin with
09:36 < kirka> C would fit perfectly, but it's not expressive enough
09:36 < eudoxia> You can continue adding features without compromising backwards-compatibility
09:37 < Urchin> kirka: what's missing?
09:37 < kirka> I would embed scheme interpreter in C and design the software around that, (or used Racket for everything) but that's not OK if there is a team
09:38 < eudoxia> kirka It would be far more efficient to compile the Scheme to C/ASM/LLVM
09:38 < Urchin> kirka: how well do you use function pointers?
09:38 < kirka> Urchin I do, I also know how to debug them, heh
09:38 < Urchin> then you're close to having the capabilities of scheme
09:39 < kirka> eudoxia You are right, that could work
09:39 < eudoxia> see Icarus scheme, Vicare scheme, all compile to x86 assembly and are as fast as C
09:39 < eudoxia> and have pointers
09:40 < kirka> Urchin dynamic languages are convenient to create GUIs. C will be too verbose for that. I use C, for example, in programming microcontrollers or simulators, there it fits perfectly
09:40 < chris_99> C + gtk work ok
09:40 < chris_99> i admit it's quite verbose though
09:40 < kirka> eudoxia Haven't heard about Vicare scheme, thanks
09:41 < kirka> eudoxia Everything could be written in Racket scheme, btw
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09:42 < kirka> NE1 doesn't work:
09:42 < kirka>   File "multiarray.pyc", line 10, in __load
09:42 < kirka> ImportError: DLL load failed: The parameter is incorrect.
09:42 < kirka> Hmm
09:44 < kirka> eudoxia: You are lucky
09:44 < eudoxia> I honestly don't know how I got it to work
09:44 < kirka> That depends on OS and hardware, I have x64 version
09:45 < eudoxia> hm
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09:45 < eudoxia> I have the 32 bit Win7 running an a 64 bit processor
09:45 < eudoxia> yeah yeah I suck but it might have something to do with it
09:45 < kirka> Not a problem, probably we'll deal with it sometime
09:46 < kirka> Yes, it could, of course
09:47 < kirka> Actually, I do not understand, why NE1's source is 34MB
09:47 < eudoxia> oh no guys the NE wiki is down
09:47 < kirka> Yes
09:47 < kirka> kanzure said that he'll do something about it later
09:48 < Urchin> scheme 6 is industry oriented
09:48 < jrayhawk> i wonder if "do something about it" means "bug jrayhawk"
09:48 < Urchin> not used much, but you could always work at it
09:48 < kirka> Heh
09:49 < Urchin> where are the ne1 repositories, btw?
09:49 < eudoxia> https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
09:49 < kirka> Urchin The thing I like about scheme is that it's defined in ~2 screens of scheme code. And python is defined by a large body of C code.
09:50 < kirka> Software aimed for the future should be written in easy to implement language
09:50 < kirka> Platforms and OSes change constantly
09:50 < eudoxia> why two screens? you can just say (loop (print (eval (read))))
09:50 < Urchin> I've done a bit of scheme, can't say I know it, though
09:50 < kirka> eudoxia That's cheating :)
09:51 < eudoxia> As much as I like Lisp, I'd prefer it if there was a Lisp with a hybrid type system
09:51 < kirka> Static+dynamic?
09:51 < eudoxia> dynamic and static, not just Common Lisp's "hurr (declare) macro"
09:52 < kirka> There was "stalin" scheme compiler, by J. Siskind. It optimized very agressively and performed complete type inference inside with no type declarations from programmer.
09:53 < kirka> But it doesn't work on modern OSes and x64.
09:53 < kirka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_(Scheme_implementation)
09:54 < eudoxia> I guess type inference is a good alternative to dynamic typing
09:54 < kirka> I think smart compiler should do it by itself, and only rarely ask programmer.
09:54 < eudoxia> Although, what if you do (nth ([some computation that returns an unsigned integer]) '(1 3.14 "herp"))
09:55 < eudoxia> the machine can't infer, at compile time, whether that expression will return an integer, a double or a string
09:56 < eudoxia> that's the main problem I ran into when trying to implement my hybrid-typed Lisp, so I just went for static typing and maybe in the future I'll add something like boost::variant with automatic type unboxing
09:57 < kirka> If compiler has access to whole program (as in case of numeric codes which are of interest to me) then types could be ambiguous only around IO.
09:57 < kirka> In your case '(1 3.14 "herp") is a constant.
09:58 < eudoxia> but the first argument to nth is not
09:58 < kirka> Some amount of runtime type checking will remain if necessary, C++ does that too.
09:59 < kirka> vtables and such
09:59 < eudoxia>  (nth 0 '(1 3.14 "herp")) -> int, (nth 1 '(1 3.14 "herp")) -> double, (nth 2 '(1 3.14 "herp")) -> char*, the machine can't know at compile time if, for example, the number comes from something like (read-int-from-console)
09:59 < kirka> Yes, IO is a major problem.
10:00 < kirka> It seems that it's enough for just IO routines to be strictly typed
10:00 < kirka> But I don't have a formal proof of that
10:00 < kirka> If program communicates with outside world only by IO
10:00 < kirka> Well defined IO
10:01 < kirka> Then I don't think why we couldn't infer types for everything that's inside.
10:02 < kirka> Though I haven't learned type theory much
10:03 < kirka> Stalin does something like that, and for numeric code that's enough
10:04 < docl> someone should write them a haskell in like 2 screens of haskell.
10:05 < kirka> Heh, I don't think that's possible, for all that syntatctic sugar around System F
10:06  * docl is more familiar with forth
10:06 < kirka> Language discussion is potentially endless
10:07 < docl> yeah
10:08 < kirka> Algorithms and math are more important
10:08 < chris_99> kirka, did you say you do image processing-y stuff btw?
10:08 < kirka> chris_99 Yes, I do
10:08 < chris_99> have you done much image recognition?
10:09 < kirka> chris_99 I'm writing something like Viola-Jones object detector, and I'm interested in stereovision.
10:09 < chris_99> cool, i'm just trying to recognise simple rectangles, and the hough transform is failing me
10:10 < chris_99> any ideas of anything else i could use
10:10 < kirka> Rectangles?
10:10 < chris_99> yeah just simple shape detection
10:11 < eudoxia> Canny?
10:11 < kirka> So, you detect lines and then try to infer which of them look like a rectangle together?
10:11 < chris_99> edge detection by itself isn't enough eudoxia
10:12 < chris_99> kirka, well hough transform wasn't good at finding lines
10:12 < eudoxia> right, i realized now when I read kirka's post
10:12 < kirka> chris_99 Strange, it shpuld work
10:12 < chris_99> i've heard someone else say it's not esp. good too
10:12 < kirka> chris_99 What's wrong with it?
10:12 < chris_99> it just didn't find the lines i wanted
10:14 < kirka> Not enough contrast?
10:14 < chris_99> there was plenty of contrast tbh
10:14 < kirka> Hmm
10:14 < chris_99> i ran it through an edge detect too prior
10:15 < chris_99> this viola-jones detector sounds interesting
10:15 < kirka> Did you try to tune voting threshold?
10:15 < kirka> It's not suitable for lines
10:15 < chris_99> i generated lots of different ammounts of lines
10:16 < kirka> V-J is good for faces and other blob objects
10:16 < chris_99> and i had to add an insanely high value to detect the lines
10:16 < chris_99> i needed
10:16 < chris_99> which produced a _lot_ of rubbish
10:16 < chris_99> ah, well the rectangles could be thought of as blobs
10:17 < kirka> There could be better algorithm, but I don't know it. CV is active field and I'm not specialist.
10:17 < chris_99> i'll keep on looking :)
10:18 < kirka> chris_99 Maybe you should filter lines by length and orientation?
10:18 < kirka> (result lines)
10:18 < chris_99> yeah i was thinking of doing something like orientation
10:18 < chris_99> and parallel lines
10:19 < chris_99> but the ammount of reduntant lines makes me think it wont work too well
10:19 < kirka> Yes, I would filter small lines and tried ti check which of the remaining ones could form a rectangle
10:20 < kirka> I would form functional criterion for a rectangle
10:20 < chris_99> the problem is hough just gives polar coords really doesn't it iirc
10:20 < kirka> And scored all 4-line-sets by this criterion
10:20 < kirka> Yes, in most implementations
10:21 < kirka> For rectangle (not parallelogram?)
10:21 < chris_99> yeah i'm looking for rectangles not parellelograms
10:21 < kirka> You would need to check all 4-tuples of 2 parallel and 2 antiparallel lines
10:21 < kirka> That's probably slow
10:21 < chris_99> i think i need an alg. geared at rectangles tbh
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10:23 < chris_99> i wonder about machine learning algs.
10:23 < chris_99> i might try something like that
10:23 < chris_99> back in a bit
10:24 < kirka> Well, ML isn't magic, you should formulate your problem in a standard way, e.g. classification problem
10:25 < kirka> Does your Hough Transform result contain needed lines?
10:25 < kirka> If so, then chicking which ones are parts of rectangle should not be a problem
10:33 < kanzure> um, why is nanoengineer only running 5 fps for you?
10:34 < kirka> kanzure 5 fps for rotating carbohydrate sleeve bearing in ball-stick view
10:34 < kanzure> jrayhawk: it sounds like i am missing some instructions in the chroot notes in nanoengineer's README.. mount --bind for tmp proc dev, but what about the xhost stuff? or was that just kirka?
10:35 < kirka> kanzure xhost worked couple of times, but after VM reboot it doesn't connect to X again. I'll deal with it tomorrow.
10:36 < jrayhawk> once you define DISPLAY=:0 X11 will automatically attempt to use /tmp/.X11-unix/X0
10:36 < kanzure> eudoxia: yes, i'm harrassing mark sims about the wiki problems.
10:36 < kirka> kanzure So, if I understand correctly, the only library problems are with python libs (numpy etc), not with native code (GROMACS, Nanodynamics)?
10:39 < kanzure> gromacs has a new version that is not integrated into nanoengineer
10:39 < kanzure> i haven't tried using nanodynamics
10:39 < kirka> I though it uses it by default.
10:39 < kanzure> nah you have to click a button
10:39 < kirka> Yes, "Simulation"
10:40 < kirka> I did it under windows xp, it worked.
10:40 < kanzure> kirka: a helpful thing to do would be to write some unit tests
10:41 < kanzure> if you write unit tests, then when i am working on upgrading other parts of the software, i can tell when things get broken more easily
10:41 < kirka> I think that if GROMACS (or LAMMPS) has explicit integrator API, making anchors and motors work there wouldn't be much problem.
10:41 < kanzure> are you familiar with unit testing?
10:42 < kirka> kanzure I'm not application programmer, I haven't written a single unit test in my life. And I haven't written large GUI programs. NE1 isn't something that's familiar to me.
10:42 < kirka> Heh
10:43 < kanzure> unit testing is very simple in concept
10:43 < kirka> I could help with MD though
10:43 < kanzure> http://docs.python.org/library/unittest.html#basic-example
10:43 < kanzure> their example sucks because it uses a random function (wtf)
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10:43 < kirka> kanzure To write tests I have to be familiar with NE1 architecture.
10:44 < kanzure> hmm maybe not
10:44 < kirka> I think that I can write standalone simulator that reads MMP and simulates it in GROMACS or LAMMPS. Such software would be useful for me.
10:44 < kanzure> here is an example unit test from pokecrystal that i wrote (it's a disassembly of pokemon crystal):
10:44 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/blob/master/extras/crystal.py#L8225
10:45 < kirka> Pokemon ^__^
10:45 < kanzure> this one tests that a function still works as intended.. the function just extracts certain data from a line
10:45 < kanzure> yeah, it's a compiling version of pokemon crystal
10:45 < kirka> * is quite afraid of industrial programming
10:46 < kirka> kanzure Could you elaborate about core features of NE1?
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10:47 < kirka> I thought it's a constructor to build models of atomic structures, with some convenient tools (extrude, crystal, DNA, Protein and so on).
10:47 < kanzure> correct..
10:47 < kanzure> but it's not just GUI tools
10:47 < kanzure> there were other libraries written
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10:48 < kanzure> like nanoengineer/cad/src/model/
10:48 < kirka> Why is it so large? I'm in awe when i look in src
10:48 < kanzure> however, not all of these modules were written to be separable
10:48 < kirka> Hmm
10:49 < kirka> I think simulator should be standalone. It's the most complex part (with support for distributed computing, accelerators and so on).
10:49 < kanzure> it's large because of the .mmp files in nanoengineer/cad/src/experimental/
10:49 < jrayhawk> oh, i guess if you don't have matching uids inside and outside the chroot, xhost +local: might be necessary
10:49 < kirka> Oh, now I understand
10:50 < kirka> jrayhawk That's for me?
10:50 < kanzure> dna-examples/ is 8.4 MB, namot/scripts/ is 7 .6 MB, pyrex-opengl/ is 1.6 MB
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10:50 < kirka> kanzure Pyrex and psyco scares me
10:51 < jrayhawk> maybe; i wasn't really paying attention to the original issue, just what kanzure was talking about with instructions
10:51 < kirka> They are incompatible
10:52 < kanzure> nanoengineer/cad/src/commands/ is 2 MB
10:53 < kirka> kanzure jrayhawk Could you look at this log? http://pastebin.com/JJELVDuf
10:53 < kirka> Ah, I have to mount
10:53 < kanzure> hmm i will add those instructions to the README
10:54 < kirka> They do not still work
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10:54 < kirka> It worked for couple of times though
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10:55 < kirka> Hmm, well, I'll deal with that later.
10:57 < kanzure> kirka: try with DISPLAY=:0 at the front of the command
10:57 < kanzure> "_X11TransSocketINETConnect() can't get address for localhost:6000: Name or service not known"
10:57 < kanzure> "main.py: cannot connect to X server :0.0"
10:57 < kanzure> hmm.
10:57 < kirka> Nope, main.py: cannot connect to X server :0
10:58 < kirka> You have the same issue?
10:58 < kanzure> try this:
10:58 < kanzure> DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:6000 python ~/code/nanoengineer/cad/src/main.py
10:59 < kanzure> i think 6000 might be wrong
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10:59 < jrayhawk> 6000 is the right port if you're connecting over TCP, but most distributions default to nolistentcp
11:00 < kirka> Nope, main.py: cannot connect to X server 127.0.0.1:6000
11:00 < jrayhawk> er, -nolisten tcp
11:00 < kirka> Distro is Ubuntu 12.04
11:00 < kanzure> jrayhawk: for some reason in my notes i used port 11. i'm not sure why. :(
11:00 < jrayhawk> kirka: inside the chroot, is there a /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 ?
11:01 < kirka> /tmp/.X11-unix/ Is empty
11:02 < jrayhawk> Outside the chroot, is there a /tmp/.X11-unix/X0
11:02 < kirka> Yes
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11:02 < kirka> I'll copy
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11:03 < jrayhawk> You can't copy a socket, you need to mount --bind /tmp /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/tmp
11:03 < kirka> Thanks
11:03 < jrayhawk> And you should probably mount --bind /dev /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/dev
11:03 < jrayhawk> to get DRI working.
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11:04 < kanzure> i thought that's what 'for i in tmp proc dev' was supposed ot do.
11:04 < kanzure> *to do.
11:04 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
11:05 < kirka> kanzure That script complains
11:05 < kirka> jrayhawk Thanks, with DISPLAY=0.0 it works!
11:05 < kirka> This should be automated.
11:05 < kanzure> under what circumstances should i tell users to use DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:6000?
11:05 < kanzure> kirka: yes, i'm adding the mount --bind instructions to the README.
11:05 < jrayhawk> I cannot think of a circumstance under which going over the local networking stack is a win.
11:06 < kirka> Why should users care about this low level stuff
11:06 < kanzure> this isn't for users. this is for developers.
11:06 < kirka> *Has a long history of X hating
11:07 < kanzure> the problem is that nanoengineer lost 10 programmers in 2008 and i'm the only guy left (oh, and nmz787 wrote some code too)
11:07 < kanzure> s/left/working on it
11:07 < kirka> Yes, thank you
11:08 < kirka> Without you this software would be completely abandoned
11:08 < jrayhawk> Some network abstraction is prudent if you care about isolation, I guess, but you also lose hardware acceleration in the process.
11:08 < jrayhawk> isolation should probably be done with lxc+xpra
11:08 < jrayhawk> Have you played with xpra before, kanzure?
11:08 < kanzure> no
11:08 < kirka> 5 fps haven't improved btw, with mount /dev and /tmp
11:09 < kirka> Actually, 3 fps :)
11:09 < jrayhawk> It's sortof like xhost, only detachable and actually integrates the windows under its control with your window manager
11:09 < kirka> kanzure Where is numpy used (in NE1)?
11:09 < kanzure> the master branch does not use numpy, it uses numeric
11:09 < jrayhawk> kirka: inside the chroot, glxinfo | grep direct
11:09 < kanzure> nmz787 has a branch on github somewhere that uses numpy instead of numeric
11:10 < kirka> How are 3D rotations of models calculated?
11:10 < kanzure> graphics card (or mesa)
11:10 < kirka> direct rendering: No
11:10 < jrayhawk> outside the chroot, glxinfo | grep direct
11:11 < kirka> direct rendering: Yes
11:11 < kanzure> hmmm
11:11 < kirka> There is /dev/dri in chroot
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11:13 < kanzure> jrayhawk: can you review? https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/1/files
11:13 < jrayhawk> I would suspect a permissions problem on /dev/dri, but your pastbin doohickey suggests you're running as root...?
11:14 < kirka> I'm also inside VM
11:14 < kirka> That could be the problem
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11:14 < kanzure> well, nanoengineer has to run as nanoengineeruser in the chroot because i installed it as a non-root user
11:14 < kanzure> dunno if that's what you're talking about jrayhawk.
11:15 < jrayhawk> Oh. Is nanoengineeruser in group video?
11:15 < kirka> kanzure For me this worked:
11:15 < kirka> sudo mount --bind /tmp /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/tmp
11:15 < kirka> sudo mount --bind /dev /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/dev
11:15 < kirka> Oh, how do I check?
11:15 < jrayhawk> sudo -u nanoengineer id
11:15 < jrayhawk> errr
11:15 < jrayhawk> sudo -u nanoengineeruser id
11:15 < jrayhawk> sorry
11:16 < kirka> Outside it says
11:16 < kirka> sudo: unknown user: nanoengineeruser
11:16 < kirka> sudo: unable to initialize policy plugin
11:17 < jrayhawk> judging from the copy of that chroot on gnusha, the answer is no
11:17 < jrayhawk> inside the chroot, adduser nanoengineeruser video
11:17 < kirka> How do I add him to group video?
11:18 < jrayhawk> although if you were inside the chroot and running glxinfo | grep direct as root, then something else has gone wrong
11:18 < jrayhawk> root wouldn't have permissions problems
11:19 < kirka> NOpe, doesn't accelerate
11:19 < kirka> root@user-VirtualBox:/# glxinfo | grep direct
11:19 < kirka> Error: unable to open display (null)
11:19 < jrayhawk> kanzure: re: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/1/files: 'mount' should be preceded by 'sudo'
11:19 < jrayhawk> huh
11:19 < kirka> nanoengineeruser@user-VirtualBox:/$ DISPLAY=:0.0
11:19 < kirka> nanoengineeruser@user-VirtualBox:/$ glxinfo | grep direct
11:19 < kirka> direct rendering: No
11:20 < kirka> Oh that's ok, I'm glad that it does work.
11:20 < jrayhawk> for the root, you need DISPLAY=:0 glxinfo | grep direct
11:20 < kirka> root@user-VirtualBox:/# DISPLAY=:0 glxinfo | grep direct
11:20 < kirka> direct rendering: No
11:21 < jrayhawk> perturbing. I guess I should go play with this myself.
11:21 < kirka> I'm accustomed to that, it's Linux, heh
11:22 < kirka> Well, If all I need is molecular constructor with some conveniences like extrusion, and crystal generation, I could write this prototype myself
11:22 < kirka> It would be interesting
11:23 < kirka> But it's sad not to use NE1
11:23 < kirka> * I could write this simple prototype myself
11:24 < kirka> I should understand it's features at least
11:28 < kanzure> huh? why not use nanoengineer?
11:28 < kanzure> also, please excuse our ineptitude when it comes to installing nanoengineer on your system, we've never done that before
11:28 < kanzure> you're person #5, this hasn't been battle-tested.
11:29 < kirka> Oh, guys you are already heroes for supporting this software
11:29 < kirka> These are little problems
11:29 < kirka> And you probably have a full time job
11:30 < jrayhawk> actually i don't think all that many of us bother with those
11:30 < kanzure> i work when i feel like it
11:30 < jrayhawk> same here
11:31 < jrayhawk> though kanzure's level of feeling-like-it is probably equivalent to full-time
11:31 < kirka> >why not use nanoengineer?
11:31 < kirka> I'm afraid that it's too complex for me to comprehend in reasonable time. Though I'm thinking how I could help the project.
11:31 < kanzure> it's incomprehensible?
11:32 < kirka> I am not professional application programmer
11:32 < kirka> I don't know how I could make it run faster for example
11:32 < jrayhawk> 11:09 < jrayhawk> It's sortof like xhost, only detachable and actually integrates the windows under its control with your window manager
11:32 < jrayhawk> fuck, i meant it's like xnest
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11:33 < jrayhawk> i guess 'screen for X11' might be a better summary
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11:36 < kirka> *I don't know how I could make it run faster
11:36 < kirka> without major rewrite
11:36 < kirka> And multithreading internal simulator would be complex
11:37 < kanzure> well, the reason it is slow is because we are failing to get it working properly on your system
11:37 < kirka> btw
11:37 < kirka> I could upload virtual box image  to the torrents when it'll work stable
11:38 < kanzure> the main thing that nanoengineer needs is to split into multiple submodules/programs that can be used elsewhere, and not in one giant monolithic program (nanoengineer)
11:38 < kirka> That could simplify things for others
11:38 < kanzure> virtualbox is awful.. don't use virtualbox
11:38 < kirka> kanzure Yes, you are absoultely right
11:38 < jrayhawk> yeah, we're already virtualizing the userspace with a chroot
11:38 < jrayhawk> there's no reason to virtualize the kernel as well
11:39 < kirka> If your host OS is Linux, yes
11:39 < kirka> Heh
11:39 < jrayhawk> If your host OS is Windows, use the Windows version
11:39 < kanzure> if your host os is not linux then use the windows or mac binaries
11:39 < kanzure> yes
11:39 < jrayhawk> if your host OS is OS X, use the OS X version
11:39 < kirka> Tried to
11:39 < kanzure> oh i think the wiki went down, which hosted those versions
11:39 < kirka> It doesn't work under win7, some numarray DLL not loading
11:39 < kanzure> did you install it?
11:39 < kirka> I have backup
11:39 < kirka> Yes, I did
11:39 < kirka> I have 3 installs now
11:39 < jrayhawk> haha
11:40 < kanzure> ok. numarray sounds like the sort of thing that would be 32/64-bit-sensitive to me.
11:40 < jrayhawk> what a loveley development quagmire we're contributing to
11:40 < jrayhawk> lovely
11:40 < kirka> Under Windows XP it mostly works fine (I could give a VM image), under Ubuntu 120.04 it workd partly and under Win7 it does not work yet.
11:40 < kanzure> jrayhawk: yeah! i know, i have a great idea! let's complicate things by virtualizing the software for a fourth sketchy platform.
11:40 < kirka> kanzure Yes
11:40 < kirka> Heh
11:41 < kanzure> yes, it was not developed on windows 7 ever
11:41 < kirka> >split into multiple submodules/programs that can be used elsewhere
11:41 < kanzure> it was pre-win7-existence
11:41 < kirka> kanzure, That;s very good idea
11:41 < kanzure> kirka: yes, for example the mmps file format and library inside nanoengineer
11:41 < kanzure> erm, mmp
11:41 < kirka> If we had clearly designed architecture eith defined file formats and interaction rules, it couls make things much more easier
11:42 < jrayhawk> the demand for a fourth sketchy platform is an indication that the platform portability hole being dug deeper faster than we're filling it in
11:43 < kirka> I think there should be simple CAD tool for atomic design, which saves to MMP. MMP could be simulated by (little modified) GROMACS in parallel.
11:43 < kanzure> have you used gromacs in the past?
11:44 < kirka> No, but I understand physics and numerics behind MD.
11:45 < kirka> The only thing I'll need to do is add MMP reader and motors/anchors modules and link them with GROMACS properly
11:45 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: aedf2e2 use mount --bind to wire the chroot to /dev/dri
11:45 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 09ef841 definitely mount --bind these things
11:45 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 5a85236 mount should be preceded by sudo
11:45 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: e14a33a Merge pull request #1 from kanzure/chrootreadmeupdate1
11:46 < kanzure> my hobby: submiting myself pull requests to feel loved
11:46 < kirka> Heh
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12:04 < kirka> Hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascalaph_Designer
12:04 < kirka> Molecular modeling package
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12:07 < kirka> http://www.biomolecular-modeling.com/Gallery.html
12:08 < kirka> Of courese NE1 is more developed
12:08 < kirka> *course
12:08 < kirka> This is for small molecules
12:08 < kirka> NE1 has it's niche
12:09 < kirka> We (I?) should modularize and optimize it
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12:11 < kanzure> *submitting
12:12 < kirka> Ascalaph is GPL, and there is quantum chemistry simulation
12:12 < kirka> We could stel something from it
12:12 < kirka> *steal
12:12 < kirka> And it's MD engine is quite advenced
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12:17 < kirka> *advanced
12:19 < kirka> yes, it's for biomolecules
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12:20 < kirka> I'm playing with it
12:20 < kirka> Well, GUI is convenient and fast
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12:38  * kirka folds chignolin with MD@Ascalaph
12:41  * kanzure folds kirka
12:53 < chris_99> i'm just reading http://kitto.cm.utexas.edu/research/Kittolabpage/Protocols/Microbiology/electroporation.html
12:53 < chris_99> is 400V common for electroporation
12:54 < kanzure> i remember some electroporation protocols using more volts than electrophoresis power supplies..
12:55 < chris_99> yeah that's what i thought too
12:55 < chris_99> i thought they where in the KV
12:55 < chris_99> normally
12:58 < chris_99> yeah in http://peds.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/02/03/protein.gzq002.full
12:58 < chris_99> they're using 2.5KV
12:59 < chris_99> they also mention they're using 25 µF
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13:03 < kirka> *Gies to sleep
13:03  * kirka sleeps
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13:04 < archels> http://gizmodo.com/5943572/youd-never-get-lost-with-a-pair-of-these-gps-shoes
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13:05 < chris_99> haha
13:05 < chris_99> genius
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14:00 < kanzure> any objections? https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/2
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14:24 < archels> using \t instead of spaces is good karma.
14:32 < kanzure> /kick archels
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14:42 < skorket> hey all
14:42 <@kanzure> let's all move to kansas, get lots of bandwidth into a commune and call it hacker fortress
14:42 < skorket> I'm in
14:46 < strangewarp> You'll need to be self-sustaining, in preparation for the day the world is overrun by dire postmodernists
14:46 < strangewarp> In the night, you will hear their cries: "LACAAAAANNN"
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15:04 < eudoxia> we should move to Arizona and found a commune of cryonicists with lots of bandwidth and in-house nitrogen liquefaction
15:05 < eudoxia> we'll call it "The Mike Darwin Memorial Fortress"
15:08 <@kanzure> mike isn't dead yet
15:09 < eudoxia> I know
15:09 < eudoxia> I'm planning for the future
15:12 < cpopell> eudoxia, start doing apps?
15:13 < eudoxia> mostly studying for the SAT
15:13 < cpopell> ah
15:13 < cpopell> it's pretty easy
15:13 < cpopell> practice your analytical writing I guess
15:13 <@kanzure> eudoxia: take my advice and throw it in the trash
15:13 < eudoxia> kanzure: but all the cool cats of transhumanism went to MIT, except Eliezer
15:14 < eudoxia> who is a wizard
15:14 < cpopell> eudoxia: I will let you rent a room from me when I buy a house if you end up in DC Metro area :V
15:14 < cpopell> you can have a lab
15:15 < eudoxia> Deus Ex HR the prequel
15:15 < strangewarp> Eliezer and I have weirdly similar histories in our personal lives
15:15 < strangewarp> I'm a little bitter about that, since I ended up as a total loser, and he didn't
15:15 < cpopell> how much writing have you done?
15:16 < eudoxia> analytical writing? a shitbuttload of stuff for my lit class and physics papers
15:16 < eudoxia> I think I mostly need to practice text analysis
15:17 < eudoxia> strangewarp: see if you had gone forward with that religion you would've had proper cult-building practice
15:17 < strangewarp> eudoxia: Don't I know it! We both had delusional beliefs in our mid-teenagerhoods; his was that weird quantum thing, whereas mine was also a weird quantum thing but with stupider goals
15:31 < eudoxia> strangewarp: You mean that thing where his epistemology requires MWI to be true?
15:31 < eudoxia> the last issue of the Robot Cultist mag of psychotic delusions and falsehoods hasn't been forwarded to me yet
15:32 < eudoxia> so I'm not entirely up to date
15:33 < strangewarp> Huh... my epistemology requires Big Universe to be true, of which MWI is a potential subset
15:34 < eudoxia> is that some other computational platonism thing
15:34 < strangewarp> But no, I mean something else, some traditional-rationalist proposition about the nature of brains he made in like, 1999
15:34 < strangewarp> My thing is only computational platonism within the bounds of possible rational topologies, so don't flip your lid
15:35 < eudoxia> dude I totally love computational platonism
15:36 < eudoxia> what is a "possible rational topology"
15:36 < strangewarp> A universe that can exist with internally-consistent physics and is not reliant on random quantum miracles or whatnot
15:36 < eudoxia> I guess you mean a possibility space of physically possible things?
15:36 < eudoxia> close enough
15:38 < strangewarp> Every random quantum miracle to perpetuate non-rational topology reduces the universe's magnitude by a degree comparable to.. gosh.. whatever Boltzmann brains it would sequester by random resimulation, at least
15:38 < strangewarp> (sorry, made that line intentionally funky, I get amused by that sort of thing)
15:38 <@kanzure> that makes you the worst person
15:38 < eudoxia> Oh hello Greg Egan
15:38 < eudoxia> I feel dumb now
15:38 < strangewarp> kanzure: sorry :(
15:40 < strangewarp> kanzure: in my defense, it was valid within the bounds of the point I wanted to make, just radical and filled with jargon
15:40 <@kanzure> yes but it pleased you
15:41 < cpopell> kanzure, how the hell did lesswrong op you
15:41 < strangewarp> I am a pleasure junkie, it is a character flaw that I consciously recognize, I blame certain facets of the experimental early-learning program that acted like a reverse Ludovico technique :p
15:41 <@kanzure> cpopell: because i care
15:42 < cpopell> O_o okay
15:42 <@kanzure> and i think they knew i would hate it
15:42 < strangewarp> hahahahah
15:42 < cpopell> heh.
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15:51 < strangewarp> It was a pretty innovative early-learning program, but its two downsides were:
15:51 < strangewarp> 1) Complete burnout that lasts from age 6 to age 23
15:51 < strangewarp> 2) Can't see a Muppet without experiencing complete terror
15:52 <@kanzure> https://github.com/blog/1264-introducing-the-command-bar
15:52 <@kanzure> heroku needs that
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16:05 <@kanzure> "so what he was saying is that people get on mobile search results through wordpress, not google"
16:05 <@kanzure> oh clients <3
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16:14 < cpopell> I wish I had clients :P
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16:31 < skorket> is nmz787 expected to be on later?
16:31 <@kanzure> i dunno for today. i don't think he's traveling at the moment, so maybe.
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16:46 < skorket> hey kanzure, are you a professor at the U. of Austin?
16:46 <@kanzure> no
16:46 < Mokbortolan_1> he's not cool enough
16:46 < Mokbortolan_1> not enough hats
16:47 < skorket> Are you employed at the moment?  Please let me know if I'm being too nosy
16:48 <@kanzure> skorket: at the moment i make applications and do software for various companies
16:48 < skorket> ah, consultant work?
16:48 <@kanzure> yes
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16:54 <@kanzure> skorket: why do you ask?
16:54 < skorket> just curious
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16:55 <@kanzure> skorket: do i seem like a professor?
16:55 < skorket> um...no.  But you're active in the community, have a lot of interests, have a wide knowledge, etc. etc.  Seems like it could have been a possibility
16:57 <@kanzure> jmil is the closest to being a professor here (he's trying to find a place that will take him up)
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17:33 <@kanzure> alusion: hi.
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18:09 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | friends don't let friends do super college
18:09 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Aug 10 08:01:18 2012]
18:09 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
18:09 [ _sol_   ] [ cpopell        ] [ Helleshin    ] [ nuba       ] [ SDr         ] [ Thorbinator] 
18:09 [ AlonzoTG] [ devrandom      ] [ HEx1         ] [ obscurit1  ] [ Shehrazad   ] [ upgrayeddd ] 
18:09 [ alusion ] [ docl           ] [ ivan`        ] [ OldCoder_  ] [ skorket     ] [ Urchin     ] 
18:09 [ archels ] [ drazak_        ] [ jmil         ] [ otarU      ] [ smeaaagle   ] [ Utopiah    ] 
18:09 [ audy    ] [ ElixirVitae    ] [ jrayhawk     ] [ panax      ] [ strages_home] [ Vicarious  ] 
18:09 [ augur   ] [ epitron        ] [ Juul         ] [ ParahSailin] [ strangewarp ] [ Wanderer   ] 
18:09 [ bkero   ] [ fenn           ] [ Lemminkainen_] [ pasky      ] [ streety     ] [ ybit       ] 
18:09 [ brownies] [ gedankenstuecke] [ lichen       ] [ phryk      ] [ superkuh    ] [ yorick     ] 
18:09 [ chido   ] [ gnusha         ] [ Mokbortolan_1] [ Proteus    ] [ Tasmania    ] 
18:09 [ Coornail] [ Guest76887     ] [ nathaniel    ] [ Sanqui     ] [ ThomasEgi   ] 
18:09 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 58 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 58 normal]
18:09 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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18:22 < kanzure> hrm.
18:22 < kanzure> jrayhawk: i blame you?
18:27 < alusion> Sup
18:27 < skorket> open source/online EDA suggestions?
18:35 < kanzure> skorket: geda
18:35 < kanzure> non-open source: try upverter or circuitlab
18:35 < skorket> upverter is near unusable
18:35 < kanzure> heh
18:35 < skorket> I really want to like it but I can't even connect a wire
18:37 < kanzure> i hated their search interface
18:37 < skorket> circuitlab...haven't tried that
18:37 < kanzure> i just wanted to select a generic component, and not a 100 ohm resistor
18:37 < kanzure> because chances are they don't have a 1337 ohm resistor or w/e
18:37 < kanzure> circuitlab might be better. not sure.
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18:47 < skorket> yeah, I'm not sure circuit lab is supposed to be anything more than a sandbox for EE 101
18:48 < skorket> geda over kicad?
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19:07 < kanzure> skorket: hopefully yes :\
19:07 < skorket> hopefully why?
19:07 < kanzure> well, geda should have improved by now
19:08 < skorket> why do you like it over kicad?
19:11 < kanzure> no particular reason
19:11 < kanzure> i don't use either of them regularly so don't listen to me
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19:14 < skorket> I remember picking geda over kicad before I dove into upverter
19:16 < kanzure> skorket: what else is wrong with upverter?
19:17 < skorket> It's off and on
19:17 < skorket> but they consistently have problems with their editor
19:18 < skorket> I tried to alter the value of the cap?  "error"
19:18 < kanzure> hah
19:18 < kanzure> yes that's sorta important
19:18 < skorket> Try to add a zener diode?  "number of pins must match up" (it was 2 everywhere)
19:19 < skorket> Try to add a wire from one component to another?  consistently mis-aligns
19:19 < skorket> and they're spurious.  Sometimes it fails, sometimes it works.  Maybe they're in the process of bug fixing, maybe they've introduced a new one, etc.
19:19 < kanzure> they have a json exporter/importer that might be easier to work with
19:19 < kanzure> but, then you have to write in json
19:19 < skorket> They're really friendly, they have a live chat, but I pretty often have this problem
19:28 -!- jmil [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:28 < skorket> and now I can't download the exported json file
19:28 < skorket> freakin great
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20:02 < kanzure> oh nice i didn't know their exporter was broken
20:02 < kanzure> it sounds like they suck at testing
20:03 < jmil> kanzure: did you see the article where they printed blood vessels in seconds?
20:03 < jmil> only… they weren't actually vessels. lolz
20:03 < jmil> that's what you call media misdirection
20:03 < kanzure> i didn't read the article because it sounded like bullshit
20:04 < kanzure> plus, you would have informed me months in advance ;)
20:04 < kanzure> you would probably be unable to stop talking about it, too..
20:05 < jmil> people sent the article to me. the picture is cool but they are solid, not hollow, and not biodegradable. ugh.
20:06 < jmil> at least we made it in the "unlike previous techniques of printing blood vessels" section:
20:06 < jmil> http://motherboard.vice.com/2012/9/17/scientists-can-now-3d-print-blood-vessels-in-seconds
20:06 < kanzure> hah.
20:06 < kanzure> "previous" techniques. heh.
20:06 < jmil> soooo misleading
20:06 < kanzure> you're old news!
20:06 < jmil> hahaha
20:06 < jmil> right
20:06 < kanzure> better get that professorship before they forget about you
20:06 < jmil> i had my 15 min
20:06 < jmil> true dat
20:07 < jmil> in the paper they say it canNOT be used to make structures with overhangs. i.e. vessels
20:08 < jmil> but the PI is a heavyweight and does cool stuff
20:08 < jmil> it's promising technology for sure. but DLP lithography is not new either.
20:08 < jmil> so strange
20:08 < kanzure> huh? it's dlp-based?
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20:10 < jmil> ya its the same as the perfactory from envisiontec kanzure
20:10 < jmil> dynamic light projection
20:11 < jmil> they are just using a projector and an optical reducer. standard stuff
20:11 < kanzure> yes i know what dlp is haha
20:11 < jmil> oh didn't know if you meant the other acronym
20:11 < kanzure> just wasn't expecting it
20:13 < jmil> delinquentme was excited about it. dunno if he figured out the truth yet
20:21 < kanzure> delinquentme gets excited about anything that a news site posts
20:21 < brownies> he must lead a very exciting life.
20:23 < yashgaroth> hey did you guys hear we have warp drives now? good times
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20:26 < kanzure> yashgaroth: you forgot to add "TIL" or some crap like that
20:26 < yashgaroth> le warp drives
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20:51 < kanzure> neat: http://wiki.rootzwiki.com/Category:Devices
21:13 < kanzure> fenn: i saw les today. he was tailing me while i was driving around. i don't think he recognized me because he looked annoyed that this guy in front of him parked near his shop.
21:18 < brownies> kanzure: hey so
21:18 < brownies> kanzure: what happened here? http://gigaom.com/2012/08/19/halcyon-molecular-quietly-shuts-down/
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21:31 < kanzure> brownies: a few things.. lotta people were trying to grab some of their equipment before it went poof :)
21:32 < kanzure> brownies: the public story is that oxnano "beat them to the punch".. but that's obviously stupid
21:32 < kanzure> i mean, there's no way you would shut down a company with $20M invested in it just because someone announced a product that doesn't even exist
21:32 < brownies> right
21:32 < kanzure> but the story goes that elon musk got really upset about that
21:32 < kanzure> and that halcyon was going to pivot to "dna synthesis"
21:32 < brownies> some of their people were snooping up on me on LinkedIn ... which means that they're still claiming the comapny exists, on LinkedIn
21:33 < brownies> didn't someone else announce DNA synthesis breakthrough today?
21:33 < brownies> Cambrian Something?
21:33 < kanzure> when i interviewed at halcyon (they wanted me to make "super microsoft onenote, except in a web browser, to manage all of our bajillions of exabytes of data that we don't have yet") they told me their backup plan was "sell electron microscopes".
21:33 < yashgaroth> oh boy cambrian genomics made an actual announcement?
21:33 < kanzure> cambrian genomics are the guys that live with fenn
21:34 < brownies> hahah
21:34 < kanzure> no the "announcement" you're thinking of is probably the genome compiler corporation piece that was in the media..
21:34 < brownies> you guys provide a nice alternative view compared to the hubbub in the media
21:34 < kanzure> it's not a breakthrough, it's a fucking awful gui built on adobe air
21:35 < kanzure> was it the article that started with "Omri Amirav-Drory wants to be the Bill Gates of the DNA world. " ?
21:35 < kanzure> http://singularityhub.com/2012/09/17/new-software-makes-synthesizing-dna-as-easy-as-using-an-ipad/
21:36 < kanzure> i hate him
21:36 < brownies> kanzure: no, it was this, where they claim to have a "DNA laser printer" https://angel.co/cambrian-genomics
21:36 < kanzure> (he posts to diybio and it's hilarious because he doesn't know how much damage he's doing to his brand when we're all telling him how much his product sucks)
21:36 < kanzure> (open source vs closed source flame wars, the whole nine yards)
21:37 < kanzure> brownies: it's not quite a laser printer.. they are doing microarray batch synthesis and then they do some laser/sequencing magic to increase quality, iirc.
21:37 < kanzure> fenn might have more details. i haven't heard from fenn in a few months so he might be dead.
21:37 < yashgaroth> yeah what the hell happened to fenn
21:37 < brownies> is he still posting meticulous measurements of his life online?
21:37 < kanzure> his irc account has been "away" since early august 2012.
21:37 < brownies> kanzure: oh, so, what's the rest of that story? what happened to Halcyon?
21:38 < kanzure> brownies: dunno, sorry. i can ask around.
21:38 < kanzure> jojack will have lots of juice
21:38 < kanzure> Joseph Jackson <joseph.jackson@gmail.com> ask him about halcyon, tell him you know me, blah blah blah..
21:39 < yashgaroth> also ask him about the san diego diybio lab since he was spearheading that
21:39 < brownies> haha
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21:39 < kanzure> yashgaroth: i think that's todd chamoy
21:39 < brownies> "i have many prying questions about things, and i know some of the same people as you!"
21:40 < kanzure> brownies: yeah he's cool with that
21:40 < yashgaroth> nah jojack was the one who was heading it up, for some reason...but yeah todd is the local muscle
21:40 < kanzure> he's very friendly and hilarious.
21:41 < yashgaroth> took my quip of "oh sorry I didn't recognize you with a shirt on" quite well
21:41 < kanzure> every few weeks he calls me up at like 3am to rant about how much singularity university and halcyon molecular suck
21:41 < kanzure> hint: they suck a lot
21:41 < kanzure> oh and biocurious
21:41 < brownies> hahah
21:41 < brownies> so basically you hate the whole community
21:41 < kanzure> things are way worse than people let on
21:41 < kanzure> biocurious is run by the mob
21:42 < yashgaroth> so much to hate, so little time
21:42 < kanzure> singularity university is an elaborate credit card scam
21:43 < brownies> it's literally run by the mob?
21:43 < kanzure> brownies: it's not hatred.. it's being "tastefully informed".
21:43 < brownies> that seems suboptimal.
21:43 < brownies> kanzure: heh
21:43 < kanzure> no, but the board was sorta hijacked and lopsided and poorly put together
21:43 < kanzure> and so it has crippling management issues where they can't actually do things
21:44 < kanzure> he picked cofounders poorly (like tito and eri)
21:44 < kanzure> eri somehow became the face for biocurious in the media, and she started to use it to pitch her own startups
21:44 < kanzure> and suddenly she's talking about how she started diybio at osdn/oreilly conferences as the keynote speaker
21:44 < brownies> taking credit for other people's work is a critically important skill
21:45 < kanzure> truth.
21:45 < brownies> arguably, if you have that skill, you've got all other skills covered, too.
21:45 < kanzure> (there are other issues with the board; those are just two that i have a history of ranting about in here.)
21:45 < kanzure> s/osdn/oscon
21:45 < brownies> heh
21:45 < kanzure> oh also he took the transhumanism thing seriously:
21:45 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmTNtSs1UQY
21:46 < brownies> kanzure: you mean we're not going to be able to engineer immortality in the next decade?
21:46 < kanzure> i think even if we did, we wouldn't know it within the next decade.
21:47 < yashgaroth> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1968 :V
21:50 < kanzure> brownies: cambrian has a lot of interesting people, so they are worth watching
21:50 < kanzure> brownies: like http://anselmlevskaya.com/ http://github.com/levskaya
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22:03 < kanzure> crapload of git repos: http://github.com/cyanogenmod
22:04 < kanzure> about 700?
22:06 < brownies> kanzure: his name seemed very familiar to me when i saw it on Cambrian's team list. still not sure where else i've seen it.
22:06 < kanzure> i've probably mentioned him in here
22:07 < kanzure> hmm v8 runs on android?
22:07 < kanzure> oh i guess that makes sense
22:10 < brownies> haha
22:10 < brownies> yeah, google occasionally does manage to make some of their software work with some of their other software
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22:25 < kanzure> .method private initiateMarketInitialization
22:25 < kanzure> (it's java)
22:26 < kanzure> erm, i mean, it was originally java..
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22:37 < kanzure> isHasHardKeyboard
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23:25 < kanzure> brownies: why is my recruiter emailing me at 1am?
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23:50 < kanzure> heh this guy made a remote shell straight into google's android app scanner
23:50 < kanzure> http://jon.oberheide.org/files/summercon12-bouncer.pdf
23:50 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEIED2ZLEbQ
23:59 < kanzure> http://jon.oberheide.org/blog/2012/06/21/dissecting-the-android-bouncer/
--- Log closed Tue Sep 18 00:00:29 2012