--- Log opened Wed Sep 19 00:00:30 2012
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00:05 < skorket> well, that was a chore, but it should be nearly finished
00:17 < nmz787> what?
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00:43 < skorket> and looks like height probing is working
00:43 < skorket> so, height probing to get height map
00:44 < skorket> gcode generation to use the height map and interpolate z heights
00:44 < skorket> I'm very close
00:50 < skorket> of course, that's what I've been saying all week
00:54 < nmz787> you mean with the continuity?
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00:54 < nmz787> hi guys
00:55 < skorket> it tests continuity to find height
00:57 < nmz787> cool
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00:57 < nmz787> hmm
00:57 < nmz787> i hadn't thought of doing that for the etcher
00:58 < skorket> not as important
00:58 < nmz787> I might be able to do something with realtime sensing though
00:58 < nmz787> well, the depth of field might be pretty small
00:59 < nmz787> so the focus moving enough could mean the channels get larger and smaller
00:59 < skorket> what kind of range would throw it off?
00:59 < nmz787> but that depends on the flatness (spin-coated silicone on silicon wafers), and the tilt of the whole thing relative to the gantry
01:00 < nmz787> it depends, but it would probably be 10-100microns to see a size change
01:00 < nmz787> maybe up to 500 microns
01:00 < nmz787> i havent got that far into the optics
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01:04 < skorket> yeah, some feed back is probably a good idea
01:04 < skorket> then
01:06 < skorket> though I don't know how to do it on that scale
01:07 < nmz787> use cdrom focusing tech
01:09 < nmz787> basically you look at the light reflecting (or a different color with a dichroic mirror so you're not using the etching beam) back from the surface and when it's focused is when the signal at the sensor is highest
01:09 < skorket> interesting
01:09 < nmz787> imagine you're looking at a target with a flashlight, the target is most illuminated (brightest) when the beam is focused rather than dispersed
01:10 < nmz787> cdroms actually use 3 sensors, to add tracking left/right ability
01:10 < nmz787> or maybe its 4
01:10 < nmz787> 3 or 4 sensors
01:11 < skorket> you're going to gut a cdrom?
01:13 < nmz787> nah
01:13 < nmz787> but i might try using a bluray drive as-in
01:13 < nmz787> as-is
01:14 < nmz787> and that has 3 lasers I think
01:14 < nmz787> with the focusing mechanism and sensor
01:14 < nmz787> but... a 600 micron focus
01:15 < nmz787> so etching could potentially foul the last lens, but i need a vacuum chamber and exhaust for the cutter anyway
01:16 < skorket> once you have the laser etcher, what's your first project going to be?
01:17 < nmz787> the test pattern my friend and I made
01:17 < nmz787> oh, project
01:18 < nmz787> probably try to make a capillary gel electrophoresis chip
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05:35 < kirka> I'm updating NE1 to work on recent libraries
05:35 < kirka> PyQt4 and Numeric works by now
05:36 < kirka> But there is this:
05:36 < kirka>  File "/home/user/Desktop/kanzure-nanoengineer/cad/src/model/atomtypes.py", line 97, in __init__
05:36 < kirka>     if (bondvectors):
05:36 < kirka> ValueError: The truth value of an array with more than one element is ambiguous. Use a.any() or a.all()
05:36 < kirka> This code looks strange:
05:36 < kirka> if (bondvectors):
05:36 < kirka> ....
05:36 < kirka> self.bondvectors = bondvectors or [] # not sure if [] (in place of None) matters
05:36 < kirka> Note that bondvectors can be an array or None
05:37 < kirka> That's what I call bad style which Python allows
05:39 < kirka> Well, I rewritten it according to that strange logic
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06:03 < kirka> Not sure about this: ./cad/src/atombasehelp.c:8:#include "Numeric/arrayobject.h"
06:03 < kirka> kanzure ?
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06:37 < kirka> Attempt to call an undefined function glePolyCone
06:38 < kirka> Heh, viewing the logs I see that part of what I have been doing has been done already
06:45 < kirka> But splash screen is almost launching now
06:45 < kirka> OpenGL.error.GLError: GLError(
06:45 < kirka> 	err = 1282,
06:45 < kirka> 	description = 'invalid operation',
06:45 < kirka> 	baseOperation = glNewList,
06:45 < kirka> 	cArguments = (3L, GL_COMPILE)
06:45 < kirka> )
06:45 < kirka> Hmmh
06:45 < kirka>         glNewList(self._compass_dl, GL_COMPILE)
06:45 < kirka>         _draw_compass_geometry()
06:45 < kirka>         glEndList()
06:49 < kirka> NE1 launched!
06:50 < kirka> I commented thode lines
06:50 < kirka> OpenGL seems to be broken though
06:50 < kirka> kanzure ~
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07:00 < kirka> Well, now it spits a lot of backtraces in runtime
07:00 < kirka> Gl canvas is thrashed
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07:17 < kirka> Here is my NE1 work so far: http://rghost.ru/40459375
07:18 < kirka> Runs on Ubuntu 12.04
07:18 < chris_99> put it on github ;)
07:18 < kirka> But opengl is broken
07:18 < kirka> Oh, I don't have any, and I've never used code versioning system
07:18 < chris_99> ah
07:18 < kirka> Maybe later
07:18 < kirka> Heh
07:19 < kirka> Never had a need to use git, or cvs, svn
07:19 < chris_99> it's really handy, although i still don't use them properly heh
07:20 < kirka> It would be cool, if text editors themselves saved all modifications mode to file by user in their database and keeped history graph
07:21 < kirka> *made
07:22 < chris_99> you could make a pretty graph from git commits
07:27 < kirka> Hmmh, looks like updating OpenGL won't be an easy task
07:27 < kirka> If we had OpenGL specialist here
07:27 < kirka> ..
07:29 < kirka> In the future computers won't contain special accelerators for graphics, I think.
07:30 < kirka> Ne1 could be written with software renderer
07:30 < kirka> It's simple to render atoms as sprites
07:32 < Mariu> kirka, like SwiftShader ?
07:32 < Mariu> oh, nevermind :p
07:32 < kirka> Mariu Haven't heard about it
07:32 < kirka> I like software rendering
07:32 < kirka> Ah, I understand
07:33 < nsh> kirka
07:33 < kirka> It's probably good
07:33 < Mariu> kirka, TransGaming had some contracts with CCP and developed this product, I'm not sure about other details
07:33 < kirka> nsh ?
07:33 < nsh> no, what would be cool is if changes to the operating system environment were stored in this way
07:33 < nsh> and you could merge with other people's reconfigurations
07:33 < nsh> etc.
07:33 < nsh> like a respository of computer state
07:34 < nsh> that way only one person has to get something working for a generic use-case with fiddly software
07:34 < nsh> and others can just subscribe to their feed
07:34 < kirka> nsh Yes, but it would require order of magnitude more computing power. Or you are talking about persistent memory OSes? I like Phantom OS because of this feature.
07:34 < nsh> aye, there are some complicating factors :)
07:34 < nsh> not aware of phantom OS - will check it out
07:35 < kirka> In short it's VM based OS with OS level persistence
07:35 < nsh> no pointers, eh
07:35 < kirka> Programs don't need files etc
07:35 < nsh> kirka, interesting, i see
07:35 < nsh> object is fundamental
07:35 < kirka> Yes, don't know if it's still actively developed
07:35 < nsh> this would be great if people were evolved enough to do object-orientated programming correctly
07:36 < nsh> which is an open question
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07:36 < nsh> also java :(
07:36 < kirka> I don't OOP should be used everywhere. I prefer functional style.
07:36 < kirka> *don't think
07:37  * kirka imagines NE1 running on rod logic (super) computer swiftly with software rendering
07:38  * nsh smiles
07:39 < kirka> Well, If I had molecular assembler, I could design this supercomputer in 4-6 months, I have some experience with CPU design, FPGAs etc
07:39 < kirka> *And fabricate
07:39 < kirka> To be run on such an architecture NE1 should be written in a language with simple specification
07:40 < kirka> Scheme is suitable for this purpose
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07:42 < eudoxia> kira: i believe thew exact opposite, that as time goes by and moore's law grinds to a halt we'll develop many more increasingly specialized chips: for trigonometry, 3D graphics, string processing, iteration, etc.
07:43 < kirka> Yes, you are right
07:44 < kirka> But I think that there will be some time period when people will have plenty od computing power for their purpose
07:44 < kirka> *purposes
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07:44 < strangewarp> I'm about confident a RaspberryPi would cover all of my potential usage-cases, outside of gaming, which I don't do much anymore
07:45 < kirka> But as we will try to solve even more difficult problems, fundamental physical limits will push us to create specialised hardware
07:46 < ThomasEgi> kirka, like FPGA?
07:46 < eudoxia> strangewarp: I used to think that until I started doing simulations in NanoEngineer
07:47 < strangewarp> eudoxia: Ha! Well, I'm just a humble musician who doesn't use bloaty softsynths, so I am a pretty specialized case
07:47 < kirka> ThomasEgi They are good for a number of purposes. But for physical simulations CPUs and GPUs give more power per dollar
07:48 < ThomasEgi> if you can afford to wait for the result, then yes.
07:48 < kirka> Well, iF i'll have N dollars I'll have my results faster with a cluster of GPUs
07:49 < kirka> FPGA are used a lot in military equipment where money do not matter
07:50  * kirka Is puzzled by NE1 opengl subsystem
07:50 < kirka> kanzure ~
07:54 < nsh> FPGA is very useful tool
07:54 < nsh> 70 FPGA and some cables is even more useful
07:55 < kirka> Heh
07:59 < ThomasEgi> fpga is most usefull when you can't wait for results
07:59 < ThomasEgi> like when you need it within a few hundret nanoseconds
07:59 < kirka> Yes it is
08:00 < kirka> So they are used in military, telecom signal processing, HP trading and so on
08:03 < ThomasEgi> ... SCIENCE..
08:03 < kirka> LHC, yes
08:03 < kirka> But these are narrow purpose computing systems
08:04  * kirka looks with awe at log of running NE1 http://pastebin.com/Xb1NZpg4
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08:12 < chris_99> FPGAs still have pretty low clock speeds though
08:12 < chris_99> admittedly they can allow massive parallelisation though
08:12 < kirka> Yes
08:12 < chris_99> so real silicon is where it's at if you want true speed i guess
08:12 < kirka> And they don't have floating point multipliers, just fixed point
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08:14 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, true silicon chips are very expensive if you don't mass produce them
08:14 < ThomasEgi> besides.. a lot of development effort
08:14 < kirka> Yes
08:14 < chris_99> indeed, but if you're the military
08:14 < ThomasEgi> i am not :D
08:15 < kirka> That's why we have to adapt our rasks to CPUs and GPUs
08:15 < ThomasEgi> best thing i can produce at home are some organic FET's .. or  a couple of silicone based mosfets. but that's bout it.
08:15 < chris_99> we could make stuff with fancy 10GHz logic gates though :)
08:16 < kirka> Rod logic gates :)
08:17 < chris_99> i've just found out the cheapest 'affordable' InGaAs image sensor is £1600
08:17 < chris_99> which makes making an IR spectrometer to measure alcohol content etc. out of the question
08:25 < nsh> lol
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09:17 <@kanzure> 06:03 < kirka> Not sure about this: ./cad/src/atombasehelp.c:8:#include "Numeric/arrayobject.h"
09:17 <@kanzure> kirka: that's just using the numeric headers
09:17 < kirka> Ok
09:18 < kirka> Now NE1 runs, but opengl is broken.
09:18 < kirka> Display list do not work
09:18 <@kanzure> kirka: put your changes on github. go to github, sign up, go to http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer and click the button that says 'fork'. it will then give you instructions.
09:18 < kirka> Oh, later
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09:19 < kirka> http://pastebin.com/Xb1NZpg4
09:20 < kirka> These are runtime errors
09:20 <@kanzure> i suggest changing the source code while inside the chroot
09:21 <@kanzure> because then you can break 1 thing at a time without breaking other things
09:21 <@kanzure> and you will know what to fix.
09:21 < kirka> Hmm, but inside chroot it's difficult to manage installing new libs
09:22 < kirka> kanzure Are you familiar with cad/src/graphics dir?
09:22 < kirka> Problems seem to be there
09:22 <@kanzure> it's ubuntu.. installing new libraries is as easy as dpkg -i newlibrary.deb
09:23 < kirka> I'll try if i won't be able to get Gl working
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09:24 < kirka> Anyway, in archive I uploaded http://rghost.ru/40459375 there is also a log of changes
09:24 <@kanzure> the chroot already has git installed btw
09:24 <@kanzure> so just type this:
09:24 <@kanzure> git add -u
09:24 <@kanzure> git commit -m'description of my changes' (or if you have more to type, just type "git commit" instead of "git commit -m")
09:25 < kirka> Heh, I did changes on tarball downloaded from your github
09:25 <@kanzure> sigh
09:25 < kirka> NE1 is already running on ubuntu 12.04
09:25 < kirka> I just have to dig OpenGL code
09:26 <@kanzure> ok, then go into the chroot, copy the files you have, and paste them into the chroot's version, and then you can run "git add -u"
09:26 < kirka> But I'm not much familiar with deep internals like display lists
09:26 < kirka> Okay, if you need it to read changes, then I'll do it
09:27 < kirka> >Are you familiar with cad/src/graphics dir?
09:28 <@kanzure> what about it
09:28 < kirka> I have already asked some opengl people, they say that display lists are old
09:28 < kirka> Look at
09:29 < kirka> http://pastebin.com/Xb1NZpg4
09:29 < kirka> Opengl is major source od runtime errors
09:30 < kirka> If you haven't worked with it, or you don't have time, it's ok
09:31 < kirka> I'll try do what I can to get it working
09:31 <@kanzure> i don't know why you don't listen to me.
09:31 <@kanzure> do you think i'm wrong? if so, you should tell me.
09:32 < kirka> Oh, that's just I'm not used to code versioning systems and try not tu use them as long as possible
09:32 <@kanzure> yes but also the whole point of the chroot is to make upgrading nanoengineer easier
09:32 < kirka> Hmm, yes
09:33 <@kanzure> right now there's an unknown number of broken things
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09:33 < kirka> But I'm not used to chroot, and it adds X issues
09:33 <@kanzure> for example, there might be 20 other things wrong with nanoengineer besides opengl
09:33 <@kanzure> in the chroot, those things are working.
09:33 < kirka> Anyway, if I'll make progrss, I'll upload working version
09:33 < kirka> Hmm
09:33 <@kanzure> so you just choose one thing at a time instead (like numpy -> numeric, which nmz787 already did anyway)
09:33 < kirka> I'll try
09:36 < kirka> I'm not as serious about supporting NE1 as you are, though. If I will understand that it will be easier (and more fun) to rewrite it in another language and with another architecture, I'll do it.
09:37 < kirka> We are not in a hurry anyway.
09:37 < kirka> But i promise that as I'll make progress I'll upload working versions.
09:38 <@kanzure> please don't do that.
09:38 <@kanzure> it's much better if you just use git
09:38 <@kanzure> sigh
09:38 < kirka> Okay
09:38 < kirka> I can always start repo
09:39 <@kanzure> what?
09:40 < kirka> *start using git repositories
09:41 < kirka> Ah, but if you want ti read recent changes, then I could upload it to git
09:41  * kirka Begins reading about git
09:42 < ybit> so... anyone want a web developer job?
09:42 < ybit> ping me
09:42 < ybit> heathmatlock@gmail.com
09:42 <@kanzure> git clone git://diyhpl.us/nanoengineer.git; cd nanoengineer; copy your changes with "cp ~/wherever/nanoengineer/is/* ."; git add -u; git commit (type a commit message that explains the changes), then later i will teach you "git push" to make it public (you have to setup a git repo either on github or on ..
09:42 <@kanzure> ybit: only if you guys are paying 20x what they were paying you.
09:43 < ybit> ofc that isn't directed @you :)
09:43 <@kanzure> so it's still $12/hour?
09:43 < ybit> $14
09:43 <@kanzure> dude get out of that
09:43 <@kanzure> fuck, i'll pay you $14/hour to dick around if you want.
09:44 < nsh> ok
09:44 < nsh> thanks
09:44 <@kanzure> hahah
09:44 < nsh> an irc contract is binding in the state of texas
09:44 < kirka> 14$*8hours*6days_per_week*4weeks_per_month = 2688$/month
09:45 < nsh> probably
09:45 < kirka> Not too bad
09:45 <@kanzure> $2688 is terrible for a web developer
09:45 < nsh> that's about what i earned as a researcher in finland
09:45 <@kanzure> kirka: web developers are earning closer to $8000-$12000/mo on this side of the planet
09:45 < nsh> for postgrad machine-minding work
09:46 < kirka> Hmm, in my country php and like web developers are lowest skilled workforce, and rarely earn more than 1000$
09:46 < ybit> i'm a junior guy
09:46 <@kanzure> ybit: no you're not.
09:46 < ybit> bham has a low cost of living
09:46 <@kanzure> i know you ybit, you're not junior.
09:46 <@kanzure> "low cost of living" is just another excuse they give you to not pay you.
09:46 <@kanzure> kirka: that's because php programmers are awful.
09:46 <@kanzure> php is also awful.
09:46 < kirka> Yes it is
09:48 < kirka> btw, I have 20Mbps broadband for just 18$/month. Is it cheap by USA standards?
09:48 <@kanzure> kirka: are you near novgorod?
09:49 < kirka> Nope, Saint-Petersburg
09:49 <@kanzure> i'd like you to infiltrate the offices of these guys: http://opencascade.org/
09:49 < kirka> Finland is near
09:49 < kirka> Heh
09:49 < kirka> I heard abou that library
09:49 < kirka> It implements b-rep for solid modeling and much more
09:50 <@kanzure> correct
09:50 <@kanzure> however, the source code is awful
09:50 <@kanzure> written in english, french and russian
09:50 < kirka> Solidworks geometric inference and b-rep are still surprising me. Impressive algorhitms.
09:50 < kirka> Heh
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09:57 < kirka> kanzure While I'm updating my freshly forked github repo, I'd like to ask, maybe you have thought on source of GL errors?
09:58 <@kanzure> probably version incompatabilities
09:59 <@kanzure> api probably changed in the last five years
09:59 < kirka> Hmmh
10:00 < kirka> 1.5Mb of GL code
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10:04 < kirka> I think that's there is a problem with opengl context creation
10:04 < kirka> But I don't know exactly ehre it's being created
10:04 < kirka> *where
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10:08 < kirka> I had to comment these line to get it launching:
10:08 < kirka> #glNewList(self._compass_dl, GL_COMPILE)
10:08 < kirka> #_draw_compass_geometry()
10:08 < kirka> #glEndList()
10:13 < nsh> kanzure
10:13 < nsh> you see this: http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/18/2249200/feds-add-9-felony-charges-against-swartz-for-jstor-hack
10:13 < nsh> may be worth doing some advocay. depending how strongly you feel about the issue
10:13 < nsh> aaronsw is a good guy and it would suck balls if he went to jail for this
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10:26 <@kanzure> nsh: yeah i was reading all the court docs the other day.. check the backlog
10:27 < nsh> k
10:27 <@kanzure> nsh: a few of our regulars (alec resnick, quinn norton) were subpoened
10:27 < nsh> shit
10:28 <@kanzure> he wont serve 35 years because people have gotten away with 10 for murder
10:33 <@kanzure> i do wonder though what his defense is going to be
10:33 <@kanzure> a few of the charges look defeatable in this case
10:42 < jrayhawk> nl
10:42 < jrayhawk> whoops
10:44 < nmz787> http://www.fastcompany.com/3001309/biohackers-and-diy-cyborgs-clone-silicon-valley-innovation
10:44 < nmz787> "In New York City, biohackers are united by the extremely active Biohackers NYC Meetup group and several startups, incubators, and workspaces scattered across the outer boroughs."
10:44 < nmz787> hah
10:45 <@kanzure> nmz787: we are going to have to put you on a "no news" diet
10:45 < nmz787> i don't think its /extremely active/
10:45 <@kanzure> "biohackers-nyc".. didn't you just set that up like a day ago?
10:45 < nmz787> they also misspelled Pittsburgh
10:45 < nmz787> no, but I joined it a few months ago when i got to NYC
10:45 < nmz787> its a meetup.com thing
10:45 < nmz787> "When the Biohackers NYC group was founded in early 2012, “It was because most biohacker movements started on west coast, and the east coast was lagging behind. I lamented the lack of this on the east coast,” group founder and psychiatrist Lydia Fazzio tells Fast Company. "
10:46 <@kanzure> wtf
10:46 < nmz787> I even emailed her about the DNA synthesis meeting and she didnt announce it to the meetup group
10:46 <@kanzure> east coast is fine in nyc
10:46 <@kanzure> i mean, genspace is pretty active.
10:46 < nmz787> they had some paleo food meetups, and then one about those grindhouse wetware stuff
10:47 <@kanzure> grindhousewetware.com is Lukas_ when he comes in here
10:47 < jrayhawk> oh yeah, i should've rebuild the chroot
10:47 < nmz787> "Meanwhile, in Pittsburg, Grindhouse Wetwares"
10:47 < nmz787> second misspelling
10:48 < nmz787> 3rd
10:48 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: 2a03707 add fastcompany.com article to list
10:48 < nmz787> "These implants have substantial real-life effects. Dimoveo described a few:
10:48 < nmz787> “In the lab one of our older laptops stopped working--sometimes it would recharge and other times it wouldn't. It took [Grindhouse experimenters] Tim Cannon and Shawn Sarver all of five seconds to figure out what was going on just by running their hands from the extension cord up the power brick to the computer itself. The wire was giving off a field, but not the battery (which sadly meant I needed to get a new computer).
10:49 <@kanzure> "which meant i needed to get a new computer" ???
10:49 < Mariu> lool
10:50 < nmz787> "Biohackers first came into the public consciousness thanks to an August 2012 article on tech website The Verge, where author Ben Popper had one of Grindhouse's cybernetic magnetic implants surgically placed in his thumb. "
10:50 <@kanzure> well that's a lie..
10:50 < nmz787> damn, kanzure... better delete all the old DIYbio news
10:50 <@kanzure> yeah i must be a fucking moron
10:50 < nmz787> moron
10:50 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news/
10:52 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: e58cb52 add theverge.com article from 2012-08-08
10:53 < nmz787> well, let's see if the mod posts my comment calling out the spelling and lie/major-mistake re news
10:53 <@kanzure> fell free to link to my list :\
10:54 <@kanzure> and the biohack-nyc/genspace thing is super weird.
10:54 <@kanzure> maybe journalists don't have long-term memory
10:54 <@kanzure> like, maybe we can claim that you started diybio
10:55 < nmz787> i did
10:55 < nmz787> heh heh
10:55 < nmz787> (i did link to faq/news)
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10:57 < nmz787> this guys seems somewhat interesting http://www.frias.uni-freiburg.de/matter_research/fellows/osamu-tabata/view?set_language=en
10:58 < eudoxia> so Lukas is Lucas Dimoveo?
10:58 <@kanzure> yes
10:58 < eudoxia> man I'm slow
10:59 <@kanzure> poorly written fiction :/ http://synthbiopunk.blogspot.com/
11:00 < kirka> тья787 Штеукуыештпб ерфтлы
11:00 < kirka> Oops
11:00 < kirka> nfz787 Interesting, thanks
11:01 < Mariu> »Ñ‹
11:01 <@kanzure> kirka: how do you switch between input modes?
11:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-135-22-78.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:01 < kirka> kanzure Ctrl+Shift
11:01 < jrayhawk> kirka: It's possible 'apt-get install libgl1-mesa-glx libgl1-mesa-dri' from inside the chroot will enable direct rendering
11:02 < kirka> I tried it, doesn't work
11:02 < jrayhawk> okay
11:02 < kirka> Maybe it's VM thing
11:02 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: oh right.. he's running ubuntu in virtualbox on windows 7
11:02 < jrayhawk> well, if direct rendering exists outside the chroot, then it's only partially a VM thing
11:02 < kirka> Video have never been virtualized properly
11:02 <@kanzure> stop using virtualbox
11:03 < jrayhawk> what does lspci -nn | grep VGA have to say?
11:03 < kirka> Heh. It's free. I don't want to crack vmware
11:04 < jrayhawk> you could also just get some cheap crappy hardware and shove an old radeon in it and probably get decent speeds
11:04 < kirka> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller [0300]: InnoTek Systemberatung GmbH VirtualBox Graphics Adapter [80ee:beef]
11:04 < jrayhawk> huh
11:04 < kirka> Yes
11:05 < kirka> That's my github, I pushed changes there: https://github.com/elfion/nanoengineer
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11:06 < kirka> It launches in ubuntu 12.04
11:06 < nmz787> kirka: without chroot?
11:06 < kirka> Yes.
11:07 < kirka> But opengl is broken.
11:07 < nmz787> you changed all the numeric stuff to numpy?
11:07 < nmz787> or did you use my code to start with?
11:07 <@kanzure> kirka: i am looking
11:07 < kirka> No, I started with kanzure's version
11:07 <@kanzure> oh i see. nmz787's branch (ubuntu-fixes) has numeric->numpy changes.
11:07 < kirka> I noticed that you already did update Numeric too lat
11:07 < kirka> *late
11:07 <@kanzure> https://github.com/elfion/nanoengineer/commit/15ede4b77d0b44206b3bd11f286b8ffc3b94dba6
11:08 < kirka> But auto-replacing imports wasn't difficult
11:08 < nmz787> did you use the numeric to numpy script?
11:08 < kirka> No
11:08 < nmz787> http://www.scipy.org/Converting_from_Numeric
11:08 < nmz787> how did you do it then?
11:09 < kirka> I used Geany and replaced all "from Numeric" to "from numpy.oldnumeric"
11:09 <@kanzure> he probably did a recursive find-and-replace with sed
11:09 <@kanzure> ok well apparently he doesn't know sed
11:09 < kirka> And "import Numeric" -> "import numpy.oldnumeric"
11:09 < nmz787> ahh
11:09 < kirka> Heh
11:09 < nmz787> I tried " site-packages/numpy/oldnumeric/alter_code1.py converts code written for Numeric to run with numpy using the compatibility layer."
11:09 < kirka> I just don't like to learn legacy UNIX tools
11:10 < nmz787> do you have virtualbox extensions installed?
11:10 < nmz787> legacy?
11:10 < kirka> Yes I do
11:11 < kirka> Yes, emacs for example has its key bindings from old Dymbolics lisp machines and so on
11:11 < nmz787> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sed/+changelog
11:11 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: well your prediction was correct about causing massive merging problems.. kirka's changes were based on a previous commit, and he tried to apply his changes on top of my latest version (with whitespace changed)
11:11 < nmz787> sed is still being updated
11:11 < kirka> If I wrote an OS it would be simpler
11:11 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i should listen to you more often.
11:11 < nmz787> so I dont think its legacy
11:12 <@kanzure> kirka: there's a minor problem with your git repo, and it's sort of my fault, can we fix it?
11:12 < kirka> Yes
11:12 <@kanzure> kirka: you copied files into the repo and did "git add -u" right?
11:12 < kirka> Yes
11:12 < jrayhawk> ha ha ha
11:12 <@kanzure> ok we are going to repeat that, except before copying the changes, do this...
11:13 < kirka> Well, when I download it from github it works, that's enough for me
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11:13 < kirka> I'm listening
11:14 <@kanzure> hmm when did you download the .tar.gz/.zip from my github? the one that you changed.
11:14 <@kanzure> oh.. or: what was the filename of the .tar.gz/.zip? it should have some numbers in it that i need.
11:15 < kirka> Yes
11:15 < kirka> kanzure-nanoengineer-2237b68
11:15 <@kanzure> oh good
11:15 <@kanzure> ok
11:16 <@kanzure> type this: "git checkout 2237b68" before copying your changes into it
11:16 <@kanzure> then do "git add -u; git commit" and for the commit message you can use the same one "Updated numpy, LinearAlgebra, illegal array conditionals, commented compass drawing"
11:17 <@kanzure> then do: git push -f origin master (you might have called it something different from "origin".. basically the same way you pushed to github, but with -f to force the updates)
11:17 < kirka> So, I manipulate on your unpacked tarball or on my local clone?
11:18 <@kanzure> oh i see, oops. what do you have? unpacked tarball kanzure-nanoengineer-2237b68, nanoengineer.git from me, and then your nanoengineer.git folder?
11:19 <@kanzure> make sure you keep your changed files separate, don't lose them :)
11:20 < kirka> I made git clone of your repo, copied there changes that I made and then made git add -u; git commit; git push https://github.com/elfion/nanoengineer
11:20 <@kanzure> i see
11:20 < kirka> Then I checked if version downloaded from github works
11:20 < kirka> It does
11:20 <@kanzure> ok go into that same folder you pushed to https://..
11:20 <@kanzure> type "git reset --hard 2237b68" instead of "git checkout"
11:20 < kirka> Ok
11:20 < kirka> I've done it
11:21 <@kanzure> then copy in your changes again and do "git add -u". then type "git status".
11:21 <@kanzure> check if "Makefile.am" is in this list that "git status" shows.. if it is, then we've done something wrong :)
11:21 < kirka> Lookslike file manager replaces all files in local repo, isit ok/
11:21 < kirka> ?
11:22 <@kanzure> did this happen the 1st time?
11:22 <@kanzure> *first
11:22 < kirka> Yep
11:22 <@kanzure> yes it's ok
11:23 < kirka> I've done it
11:23 < kirka> Next?
11:24 <@kanzure> type: git status | grep Makefile
11:24 <@kanzure> oh sorry. "git add -u" first. then "git status | grep Makefile".
11:25 < kirka> #	modified:   cad/src/Makefile.am
11:25 < kirka> #	modified:   cad/src/experimental/demoapp_0.1/Makefile
11:25 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: what did i do wrong??
11:26 < kirka> Heh
11:26 < kirka> Git shamanism
11:26 < jrayhawk> dissect the nearest SVN user and read their entrails
11:26 <@kanzure> what does this say? git rev-parse HEAD
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11:28 < kirka> So, the problem for you is that it shows files that haven't been changed as changed?
11:28 <@kanzure> the problem is that your changes were based on an older version of nanoengineer
11:28 <@kanzure> so we are trying to tell git to apply your changes to the older version
11:28 < kirka> Hmmh
11:28 < jrayhawk> eh, download http://rghost.net/40459375 and rebase it yourself, kanzure
11:28 <@kanzure> is http://rghost.net/40459375 the same changes?
11:29 < kirka> Yes
11:29 < kirka> It works
11:29 <@kanzure> ok i'll do it
11:29 < kirka> Thanks
11:29 < jrayhawk> it's mean to introduce someone to git with sucha trial by fire
11:29 < jrayhawk> s/sucha/such a
11:29 < kirka> Heh
11:30 < kirka> btw There is a file "kirka_NE1_work_log.txt" which documents issues with new libraries and their solutions
11:31 <@kanzure> are you familiar with issue trackers?
11:31 <@kanzure> you can go here: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/issues
11:31 < kirka> Ok
11:31 <@kanzure> when you find a new problem, you type it in and document it a little bit, and then other people can contribute.
11:32 < kirka> Will this problem show on all repos, forked from yours?
11:32 < nmz787> kanzure: when i click on any of the nanoengineer git links that have been going around, then click branches, I dont see kirka, nmz787 and kanzure's repos
11:32 < kirka> How do I upload fix to some issue/
11:32 < nmz787> why not?
11:32 < kirka> ?
11:32 <@kanzure> kirka: upload is "git commit" and "git push" ;)
11:32 < nmz787> seems like you should be able to see all the forks and merges and branches
11:32 < kirka> Ok
11:33 <@kanzure> kirka: you can attach a commit to an issue by saying "fixes gh-500" in the commit message. "gh-500" tells github to link it to issue #500.
11:33 < kirka> Understood
11:33 <@kanzure> nmz787: don't click "branches", click "network".
11:33 <@kanzure> nmz787: "branches" are only branches that i have pushed to kanzure/nanoengineer.git
11:34 < nmz787> network is not intuitive for me to click on :P
11:34 < nmz787> hah, it doesnt show you
11:34 < nmz787> https://github.com/elfion/nanoengineer/network
11:35 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/network
11:35 <@kanzure> wget --user-agent="nope" "http://rghost.net/download/40459375/8d5029be46526940e01853aaec6f9c34aae5877c/kirka-nanoengineer.tar.gz" is failing for me
11:35 <@kanzure> it just downloads html
11:35 <@kanzure> how do i get this file?
11:35 < kirka> hmmh, I do it through browser
11:36 <@kanzure> oh here it is:
11:36 <@kanzure> http://rghost.net/download/40459375/14757996a32c0755b8567503adbb8a9fec17fb05/kirka-nanoengineer.tar.gz
11:36 < kirka> If you cannot download, tell me where to upload it
11:37 < kirka> http://tau.rghost.ru/download/40459375/a9c0af7264b6de3231714d578b36878987a17495/kirka-nanoengineer.tar.gz
11:37 < kirka> That's it internal server URL
11:39 < kirka> kanzure Does it work?
11:39 <@kanzure> yes, i am fixing git things now.
11:42 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: so apparently there's mode changes on the files. how do i fix this?
11:44 <@kanzure> oh neat "git config core.filemode false" ok then.
11:44 <@kanzure> "If false, the executable bit differences between the index and the working copy are ignored; useful on broken filesystems like FAT."
11:44 < nmz787> fenn: so some folks in #linuxcnc were saying to use a delrin nut for the acme screw
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11:44 < nmz787> fenn: and to be wary of VXB for bearings
11:44 <@kanzure> nmz787: could you do me a favor and call him? i don't know if he's alive.
11:45 <@kanzure> nmz787: 703-343-5730
11:45 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:45 < nmz787> he signed on last night
11:47 < kirka> nmz787 Aren't you familiar with opengl?
11:47 < nmz787> kanzure: left a message
11:47 < nmz787> kirka: not really, i mean, i know about glut and ogre and glxgears
11:48 < nmz787> but i havent used their APIs
11:48 <@kanzure> nmz787: where did he sign on last night?
11:50 <@kanzure> kirka: ok i have fixed the git problems, but before i commit i'd like to make the commit author to be you (instead of me). we are using the "Firstname Lastname <email>" format. how would you like to be attributed?
11:51 <@kanzure> kirka: if you use the same email as you use on github, github will know how to link up commits to your account.
11:51 < kirka> Kirill Gadjello kiragadjet@gmail.com then
11:51 <@kanzure> ok cool
11:52 < nmz787> kanzure: maybe it was not last night
11:52 < nmz787> but in the last 2 or 3 nights
11:53 < Vicarious> hi
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11:58 <@kanzure> kirka: ok go into your git repo and do this: "git pull git://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer.git kirka-updates:kirka-updates; git checkout kirka-updates; git push -f https://github.com/elfion/nanoengineer.git kirka-updates:master"
11:58 <@kanzure> actually, no.
11:58 <@kanzure> just do this part: "git pull git://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer.git kirka-updates:kirka-updates; git checkout kirka-updates"
11:59 <@kanzure> for now you can see the fixed version here: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/tree/kirka-updates
12:00 < kirka> Ok, I was afk
12:01 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i need some sage advice about whether or not to merge this branch into master. my gut says no because there's no tests to check what it breaks.
12:01 < kirka> You are right
12:01 < kirka> Let it be experimental or womething
12:01 < kirka> *something
12:03 < gnusha> nanoengineer.git: 8d289b5 add ne1log.txt to .gitignore
12:04 < kirka> Oh. I did this git push -f https://github.com/elfion/nanoengineer.git kirka-updates:master sorry
12:04 <@kanzure> well that's ok
12:04 <@kanzure> elfion/nanoengineer on github will show your changes for the "master" branch instead of putting your changes on a separate branch
12:05 < kirka> Ok
12:05 < kirka> error: Your local changes to the following files would be overwritten by checkout:
12:05 < kirka> ?
12:05 < kirka> If I try to checkout
12:05 <@kanzure> are these new changes?
12:06 <@kanzure> if they are not new changes, then type: git reset --hard to undo the git repo differences.
12:06 < kirka> Filenames are that were affected by new changes
12:07 <@kanzure> git is trying to warn you about things you will overwrite that you might want to keep
12:07 <@kanzure> but we are already keeping them in kirka-updates
12:07 < kirka> Then ok
12:07 <@kanzure> so "git reset --hard" will tell git to discard the changes in your current branch that you haven't "saved" (committed) yet
12:09 <@kanzure> nmz787: hey since i'm working on nanoengineer/git things anyway, do you want me to fix your commits from ubuntu-fixes? https://github.com/nmz787/nanoengineer/commits/ubuntu-fixes
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12:09 < kirka> Hmmh, git reset --hard reverted it to old version, it doesn't run
12:10 <@kanzure> yes
12:10 <@kanzure> type: git checkout kirka-updates
12:10 < kirka> Well, it's my repo, I'll read git doc and do something with it
12:10 < kirka> Works
12:10 <@kanzure> when you checkout "kirka-updates" you switch to the version with your changes
12:10 < kirka> Good.
12:19 <@kanzure> oh i bet filter-branch can accept a range instead of just HEAD. hrm.
12:25 < kirka> So, everytime I commit to NE1 I shall write First name, Last name and email?
12:25 < kirka> (or make them global for git)
12:26 <@kanzure> yes there's a way to configure that.. git config --global user.name "Kirill Gadjello"
12:26 <@kanzure> git config --global user.email "kiragadjet@gmail.com"
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12:27 <@kanzure> open knowledge foundation is live streaming their talks: http://okfestival.org/streams/
12:28 < kirka> Ok, I'm reading this http://git-scm.com/book/
12:28 <@kanzure> (mostly about open access)
12:31 < kirka> So, to code experimental features it's better to create separate branch
12:31 < nmz787> kanzure: well it sounds like kirka may have surpassed what i did
12:31 < nmz787> so no, don't fix anything
12:31 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: 029c9da article about open source hardware in labs
12:32 < nmz787> so i'm giving a DNA talk to those biohacker NYC meetup.com ppl
12:33 < nmz787> and they want a short bio
12:33 <@kanzure> nmz787: too late.. https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/commits/nmz787-ubuntu-fixes
12:34 <@kanzure> nmz787: for a short bio.. i suggest talking about open spectrometer, maybe our laser cutter, the fbi outreach you do and how you got involved in diybio a few years ago (since apparently people can't remember)
12:34 < nmz787> heh
12:34 < nmz787> am i a science enthusiast?
12:35 < Juul> I remember reading about this project to encode a bunch of important texts from human history onto stone spheres, where the first spheres explained how to read the next, much more information-dense, spheres
12:35 < nmz787> or do i supercede that
12:35 < Juul> but now I can't find it
12:35 <@kanzure> Juul: was it related to stewart brand?
12:35 < Juul> I think it was at the Alexandrina library
12:35 <@kanzure> nmz787: you exceed that label yes
12:35 < Juul> kanzure, not that I remember, but I guess it could have been
12:35 < Juul> it was several years ago
12:35 < Juul> maybe 10
12:37 < nmz787> hmm, this is why there are bio and autobio graphies
12:37 < nmz787> i dont know what to say
12:38 < chris_99> wasn't this Juul http://millenniata.com/m-disc/ ?
12:38 < Juul> chris_99, no, but that's really cool
12:39 <@kanzure> nmz787: "Yo dawgs, I am into open source hardware and biohacking. I started the open spectrometer project on kickstarter, and have been working on a weird-ass laser cutter for a DIY DNA synthesizer for like 1/100th the cost. Also, I've been active in the biohacking community for 3 years, which is like forever in internet time."
12:39 < nmz787> lol
12:39 < nmz787> yeah that's pretty good
12:42 < Juul> yeah, except you should consider making it a bit more formal and specific, maybe start with: "Greetings oldfags" instead
12:43 < nmz787> i think biohackery is a word
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12:44 <@kanzure> Juul: it's sad that one day oldfags will only be known by oldfags.
12:44 <@kanzure> although i think newfags will remain strong
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12:50 < chris_99> what kind of laser cutter are you making nmz787?
12:50 < kirka> GLpane standard_repaint_0 and standard_repaint cause type errors
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12:51 <@kanzure> chris_99: http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher
12:52 < chris_99> merci
12:52 < chris_99> what kind of size is it gonna be?
12:54 <@kanzure> iirc we planned for at least 3 to 5 inches on a side for a work piece
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12:56 < chris_99> i'm wondering how accurate those cheap chinese ones are
12:57 <@kanzure> they're not. and they are certainly not micron resolution anyway.
12:57 < chris_99> aha
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12:58 < kirka> Class diagram would be of great help
12:58 <@kanzure> it would be better to separate the graphics code from everything else
12:59 <@kanzure> the "import" lines at the top of all the files make the graph too wild and unpredictable
12:59 < kirka> Yes, I understand
12:59 <@kanzure> you can isolate those by wrapping them in try/catch statements
12:59 <@kanzure> "try: import OpenGL..... import... import...; catch Exception as exception: pass"
13:01 < kirka> Thanks
13:02 < kirka> I mean if there is no class diagram we may create it
13:02 < kirka> (Someone from BRL-CAD said that when NE1 logic is written down in specification it could be implemented in another language)
13:03 < kirka> I'll try to do it
13:13 < nmz787> How's this,
13:13 < nmz787> "I started hacking at age 3 with a plastic screwdriver, dismantling my
13:13 < nmz787> toy-box to my parents' dismay, for a while they tried hiding tools
13:13 < nmz787> from me. After years of ripping apart old electronics and appliances,
13:13 < nmz787> and computer code, I discovered a passion in biohacking. My high
13:13 < nmz787> school biology class was just too interesting, and I began
13:13 < nmz787> experimenting at home the next year, mastering sterile technique in my
13:13 < nmz787> mom's kitchen. It really gave me an advantage in college, I didn't
13:13 < nmz787> have to worry about the simple stuff, I could really focus on the big
13:13 < nmz787> picture. Recently I've been working on open-source biotech hardware,
13:13 < nmz787> last year I started the openSpectrometer project on kickstarter, and
13:13 < nmz787> lately I've been working on a weird laser cutter for making a
13:13 < nmz787> microfluidic (small fluidic channels the size of blood capillaries)
13:13 < nmz787> DIY DNA synthesizer that will be 1/100th the cost of current devices.
13:13 < nmz787> How's this,"I started hacking at age 3 with a plastic screwdriver, dismantling my toy-box to my parents' dismay, for a while they tried hiding tools from me. After years of ripping apart old electronics and appliances, and computer code, I discovered a passion in biohacking. My high school biology class was just too interesting, and I began experimenting at home the next year, mastering sterile technique in my mom's kitchen
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13:18 < brownies> nmz787: what's it for?
13:18 < nmz787> well i sent it
13:18 < nmz787> a bio for some meetup.com thing that i'm gonna talk at
13:19 < nmz787> https://filetea.me/default/
13:19 < nmz787> Anonymous, volatile file sharing
13:20 < nmz787> hmm
13:20 < nmz787> http://www.safelivingtechnologies.ca/Studies+Articles.htm
13:20 < nmz787> Scientific Electromagnetic Field “EMF” Studies
13:20 < nmz787> i wonder if I can find any telepathy stuff in there
13:20 < nmz787> i really want to make bacteria talk between glass test tubes
13:20 < nmz787> lol
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13:21 < nmz787> so fastcompany still hasnt posted my comment
13:22 < nmz787> guess they don't like being called liars
13:25 < nmz787> ok, g2g
13:25 < nmz787> ttyl
13:25 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:30  * kirka wonders why should rendering be so complex, with caching, sahders and stuff
13:30 < kirka> *shaders
13:30 < kirka> exception in _paintGL_drawing ignored: <type 'exceptions.TypeError'>: 'int' object is not iterable
13:30 < kirka>   [GLPane_rendering_methods.py:285] [GLPane_rendering_methods.py:333] [GLPane_rendering_methods.py:390] [GLPane_rendering_methods.py:441] [GLPane_rendering_methods.py:720] [GLPane_highlighting_methods.py:349]
13:32  * kirka would render atomic structures with sprites
13:36 < chris_99> heh, but then it wouldn't look pretty
13:36 < kirka> With blur it could
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13:36 < kirka> Sprite is a natural way of rendering Spheres
13:37 < chris_99> i'd like to see you do fancy 3d manipulation of them
13:37 < kirka> Yup, calculating which model objects should be created on mause click is complex
13:37 < kirka> *mouse
13:38 < kirka> But in NE1 it's done in some even more complex HW-accelerated fashion, as it seems to me
13:38 < kirka> *should be selected
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13:41 < kirka> No, extracting graphics code from NE1 is impossible task for me
13:42 < kirka> Most I can do is to patch so it could (sometimes) work
13:42 < eudoxia> we should just extract the code for the 3D viewport and build everything from scratch around it
13:43 < eudoxia> that's what I originally wanted to do
13:43 < eudoxia> but I got lost in cad/src and they had to send in a rescue team to find me
13:44 < eudoxia> i was without food and water for 11 days
13:45  * kirka can relate to eudoxia feelings
13:46 < kirka> I commented source of exceptions and now it' segfaulting, heh.
13:46 <@kanzure> i think the separation of imports is the way to go forward
13:46 < kirka> Could you show an example?
13:46 <@kanzure> open ipython and type "import nanoengineer". that should cause no errors and it should work.
13:46 < kirka> Ny "try:" around imports do not catch anything
13:46 < kirka> Hmmh
13:48 < kirka> ImportError: No module named nanoengineer
13:49 <@kanzure> well, you need to add the path to your $PYTHON_PATH
13:49 <@kanzure> export PYTHON_PATH=$PYTHON_PATH:/path/to/nanoengineer/cad/src/
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13:51 < kirka> Still doesn't work. I also haven't seen declaration of such module
13:51 <@kanzure> yes exactly, there's a bunch of problems
13:51 < kirka> eudoxia So, I suspect, you are tired of NE1 internals? :)
13:52 < eudoxia> there is no hope
13:52 <@kanzure> there is always hope
13:52 <@kanzure> just not for you guys, because you wait for me to do everything :(
13:52 < kirka> Heh
13:52 < kirka> I was going to do it myself
13:53 < kirka> hit_records = list(glRenderMode(GL_RENDER))
13:53 < kirka> This generates exceptions
13:53 < kirka> GLPane_highlighting_methods.py - highlight drawing and hit-detection, 349
13:55 < kirka> eudoxia My hope is to play around with NE1 and it's sources, understand it's features, then create architecture for such CAD and implement it in completley portable manner.
13:56 < kirka> Decoupled IO, that means
13:57 < eudoxia> decoupled?
13:58 < kirka> Yep
13:58 < eudoxia> like operating the program from the command line?
13:58 < kirka> So it would work onany computer wehre  you implement IO functions (mouse, keyboard, pixelbuffer) and write interpreter of source language
13:59 < kirka> Actually Chuck Moore did that with Forth.
13:59 < kirka> It's possible
14:00 < eudoxia> why not compile it for almost every platform?
14:00 < kirka> New platforms will appear
14:00 < kirka> And interpreter is easier to write then compiler.
14:01 < eudoxia> well
14:01 < eudoxia> you need to write a compiler that emits asm for that platform to compile the interpreter
14:01 < eudoxia> why not just use that first compiler to compile the program?
14:01 < kirka> Someone will do that for me
14:01 <@kanzure> ....
14:01 < kirka> Languages and libraries are created and forgotten often
14:02 < kirka> And standards change
14:02 < eudoxia> just produce asm for a compiler infrastructure that compiles it to every other platform
14:02 < eudoxia> ie LLVM IR
14:02 < eudoxia> and writing a compiler is not that hard...
14:02 < kirka> LLVM may become deprecated in 20 years
14:02 < kirka> Yes it is
14:03 < eudoxia> depends on the target lang
14:03 <@kanzure> you guys could be fixing nanoengineer right now, you know.
14:03 < kirka> I am
14:05 < kirka> eudoxia Idea is that implementation language should be easy to interpret (e.g. scheme). Then even if all tools of this generation (~2000-2010) will be abandoned, that software could still be tun easiliy
14:05 < kirka> *run
14:05 < kirka> Just write interpreter and drivers
14:06 < eudoxia> or you just write a scheme compiler
14:06 < kirka> If that's bytecode compiler then yes
14:06 < eudoxia> why would anyone compile to bytecode?
14:06 < kirka> To be portable
14:06 < kirka> Java does
14:06 < kirka> It works anywhere you code JVM
14:07 < eudoxia> compiling to the asm of the machine is not qualitatively different from compiling an interpreter to the asm of the machine and then running your program on the interpreter
14:07 < kirka> Yes
14:07 < kirka> You are right
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14:11 < kirka> I mean that even if there are no modern interpreters/compilers remained for the language a program is written in, if the language has clear and simple specification then someone can easiliy implement interpreter/compiler.
14:11 < eudoxia> certainly
14:12 < kirka> Programs written to be used decades into the future should be written that way
14:13 < eudoxia> we really need to get working on all this historical baggage our software keeps carrying around
14:13 < chris_99> and what language would the spec be written in
14:14 < eudoxia> the specification is not a language, it's simply a document
14:14 < eudoxia> like a function reference
14:14 < kirka> English, probably. Or formal logic.
14:14 < kirka> Yes
14:14 < chris_99> i thought you meant something like Z
14:14 < eudoxia> the notation?
14:14 < kirka> >we really need to get working on all this historical baggage our software keeps carrying around
14:14 < kirka> I agree
14:15 < chris_99> yeah the notation
14:15  * kirka wonders about meaning ***** adding _generalCopier exception for <type 'numpy.ndarray'> (bad if not a built-in type -- classes used in copied model attributes should inherit something like DataMixin or StateMixin)
14:17 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/nanoengineer/cad/src/ReadMe.html
14:18 < kirka> Thanks
14:18 < kirka> btw kanzure Have tried to run main.py ?
14:18 < kirka> Maybe GL errors are my hardware's fault
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14:19 <@kanzure> yes i have run main.py
14:19 <@kanzure> but not your version.
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14:19 < kirka> Could you try?
14:20 < kirka> Internet says that my errors maybe because of ati gpu
14:27 < kirka> Ша нщг фку игынб шеэы щл
14:27 < kirka> If you are busy, it's ok
14:31 < kirka> Do the glRenderMode(GL_SELECT) drawing, and/or the glname-color
14:31 < kirka>         drawing for shader primitives, used to guess which object
14:31 < kirka>         might be under the mouse, for one drawing frame,
14:31 < kirka>         if desired for this frame. Report results by storing candidate
14:31 < kirka>         mouseover objects in self.glselect_dict.
14:31 < kirka> Hate it
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14:33 < kirka> Hate this aproach
14:33 < kirka> *approach
14:33 < kirka> Yes, maybe it's faster
14:34 < kirka> But it's too complex
14:34 < kirka> And hardware dependent
14:35 < kirka> kanzure ?
14:36 <@kanzure> what?
14:37 <@kanzure> oh you still want me to run your version.. no not right now.
14:37 < kirka> Ok, I'm not in a hurry, we have days, weeks, months
14:42 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: "DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:10 xterm; X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication. X connection to 127.0.0.1:10.0 broken (explicit kill or server shutdown)."
14:43 <@kanzure> oh oops i forgot my .Xauthority
14:46 < jrayhawk> xhost +local: makes things simple
14:46 < kirka> Aren't you working with chroot?
14:47 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: where should i run that?
14:47 <@kanzure> kirka: i am using the chroot on a remote vserver, so i need to do xforwarding to see anything
14:47 < kirka> Ah
14:47 < jrayhawk> oh, ssh -X should take care of all the magic cookie stuff for you
14:47 <@kanzure> hmm
14:48 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: ssh -X bryan@gnusha.org "sudo chroot /root/nanoengineer-chroot \"xeyes\"" doesn't work (well, i'm not passing these strings through, i'm doing it manually, but you get the idea).
14:48 < jrayhawk> oh, right
14:49 <@kanzure> ah i forgot the xauth add $(cat /pasted/file) step
14:49 < kirka> eudoxia Have you got some experience with NE1 during your 11-day journey?
14:50 < eudoxia> not much
14:50 < kirka> Don't you want to pass it on? :)
14:50 < eudoxia> I mostly just saw the code and seized
14:50 <@kanzure> kirka: i don't see why he would. you've ignored everything else so far.
14:50 < kirka> Heh
14:50 < kirka> I agree
14:52 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: d7245df add link to wiki.biohackers.la
14:54 < kirka> But I set up github!
14:55 < kirka> That was a major "give up" for me :)
14:55 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: 243b855 another cheap power supply for gel electrophoresis
14:55 <@kanzure> kirka: true.
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14:57 < jrayhawk> using git builds character!
14:58 < jrayhawk> github i am more apathetic about, i guess
14:58 <@kanzure> github has some nifty help documentation and links that make it less painful for new users
14:58 < jrayhawk> someday i will usurp those capitalist pigdogs with the Great Piny Experiment
14:59 < kirka> I have read some of them
14:59 < kirka> I think it's possible to build user-friendly CVS
14:59 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: so i'm still confused about xforwarding, even without the chroot. ssh -X into gnusha and DISPLAY=:10 xlinks2 should run right? :/
14:59 <@kanzure> i get "svgalib: Cannot get I/O permissions."
15:00 <@kanzure> and "(!) Direct/Util: opening '/dev/fb0' and '/dev/fb/0' failed"
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15:01 < jrayhawk> You need a socket to connect to, either in /tmp/ or over the network
15:01 < jrayhawk> I think ssh -X uses the /tmp approach, so you'd have to bindmount that into the chroot
15:01 <@kanzure> i'm not using the chroot yet
15:01 <@kanzure> just trying to confirm that xforwarding works
15:01 < jrayhawk> oh
15:02 <@kanzure> i keep expecting "ssh -X bryan@gnusha.org \"xlinks2\"" to just work. but there's a few steps i need to remember?
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15:02  * kirka is sleepy
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15:03 < jrayhawk> uh. hmm. that works with no effort for me
15:03 <@kanzure> oh derr. me too :( i was preemptively assuming i needed to specify a weird $DISPLAY.
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15:04 <@kanzure> so mount --bind /tmp /root/nanoengineer-chroot/tmp ?
15:04 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
15:04 <@kanzure> mount: permission denied
15:05 <@kanzure> (sudo'd)
15:05 < jrayhawk> oh, no, i guess i lied. ssh -X does do it over the network.
15:05 < jrayhawk> so the bind mount is unnecessary
15:06 <@kanzure> so when i jump into the chroot, i run xeyes and i get "X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication. X connection to localhost:10.0 broken (explicit kill or server shutdown)."
15:07 < jrayhawk> Yeah, you'll want to copy or bind mount .Xauthority in there
15:08 <@kanzure> gnusha:~/.Xauthority into nanoengineer-chroot/root/.Xauthority ?
15:08 < jrayhawk> Only if you want to run stuff as root, yeah
15:09 <@kanzure> mount: mount point /root/nanoengineer-chroot/root/.Xauthority is not a directory
15:09 < jrayhawk> I wonder if the uid gets reported somehow. that'd be interesting.
15:09 < jrayhawk> Yeah, you'd have to touch that first
15:09 <@kanzure> same problem
15:09 < jrayhawk> huh
15:09 <@kanzure> mount --bind is only for directories?
15:10 < jrayhawk> damn, i totally thought it could fake that
15:10 < jrayhawk> oh well, you're doomed to copying
15:11 <@kanzure> hooray why didn't copying work earlier
15:11 <@kanzure> probably because i was using DISPLAY=gibberish because i wasn't thinking
15:12 < jrayhawk> DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:10 looks to be what you want
15:13 <@kanzure> i don't need $DISPLAY. xeyes and nanoengineer are displaying for me now that i copied my ~/.Xauthority around like a whore.
15:13 < jrayhawk> oh, surprising
15:13 < jrayhawk> in general if you want some level of security when dealing with remote X stuff, you can use xpra
15:14 <@kanzure> yeah i think leaving my .Xauthority in a chroot is bad, isn't it?
15:14 < jrayhawk> It'll only be valid for as long as your xsession is
15:14 <@kanzure> contest! who can display goatse on my laptop the fastest?
15:14 < jrayhawk> man, this sounds like a fun game
15:14 <@kanzure> i think the winner can possibly watch my screen remotely?
15:15 < jrayhawk> with a lot of effort
15:15 <@kanzure> well seeing as how these assholes can't even fix basic python bugs, i guess that's unlikely.
15:16 < jrayhawk> okay, did that work
15:16 <@kanzure> yep
15:16 <@kanzure> you win
15:16 < jrayhawk> Feels good.
15:17 < jrayhawk> Like I really accomplished something today.
15:17 <@kanzure> was that you on the keyboard or was i talking to myself
15:17 < jrayhawk> You were just talking to yourself. I'm not willing to go through the effort of dealing with xinput.
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15:46 < jrayhawk> also the chroot thing doesn't really change anything; the raw socket is available to all local users, and the xauth layer is all that's protecting you.
15:46 < jrayhawk> so any user that has access to your .Xauthority file (i.e. root and you) are always able to dick with your server.
15:46 < jrayhawk> alternatively, if you xhost +127.0.0.1, everyone can join in on the party!
15:49 < jrayhawk> In Glorious Wayland Future, windows don't really need to be aware of eachother, so security defaults for network abstractions will be a lot less awful.
15:50 < jrayhawk> well, probably
15:50 < skorket> evening all
15:51 < jrayhawk> I am a little surprised ssh -X doesn't use a BSD socket like ssh -A does.
15:59 < nsh> what's the difference?
15:59 < nsh> reentrancy
16:00 < nsh> aside from that just appears to be difference in function naming conventions
16:03 < jrayhawk> The BSD socket would have filesystem permissions applied to it.
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16:23 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i'm still experiencing a segfault with mitmproxy :/
16:23 <@kanzure> #0  0x00007ffff7219431 in RC4 () from /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcrypto.so.1.0.0
16:24 <@kanzure> ideally i coudl force it to load a version of libcrypto with debugging symbols i guess.
16:25 < jrayhawk> libssl1.0.0-dbgjrayhawk@richardiv:~$ apt-cache search libssl dbg
16:25 < jrayhawk> libssl1.0.0-dbg - Symbol tables for libssl and libcrypto
16:25 < jrayhawk> whoops
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16:29 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: hooray upgrading libssl fixed things apparently
16:29 <@kanzure> or possibly upgrading python to 2.7.3something
16:29 < jrayhawk> upgrades are love
16:30 <@kanzure> upgrades for everyone
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16:30 <@kanzure> 66.68.190.37:42102: 400: SSL handshake error: [('SSL routines', 'SSL3_READ_BYTES', 'tlsv1 alert unknown ca')]
16:30 <@kanzure> hrm.
16:49 <@kanzure> "Purchase for multiple years - installing the code on the server for the SSL is a $75 charge"
16:49 <@kanzure> my mom is getting ripped off.
16:49 <@kanzure> "You can purchase the SSL from Godaddy this week and we will need the access to that account"
16:51 <@kanzure> "purchase the SSL" her language is awful (this isn't my mom, but rather the person she's paying..)
16:52 < brownies> kanzure: wtf?
16:52 < brownies> from godaddy? need access to the account? for $75? every part of that is so, so wrong.
16:55 < streety> yeah, $75 probably isn't bad for a streamlined service but it sounds like your mom still needs to do half the work
16:57 < jrayhawk> hey remember last night when i got you an ssl certificate for free with fifteen minutes of work
16:57 < jrayhawk> those were good times
16:58 <@kanzure> huh?
16:58 <@kanzure> i'm trying to figure out how much this is worth to me
16:59 < streety> how much what is worth to you?
16:59 <@kanzure> should i be a nice person and tell mom and her person about startcom? or is my time more valuable than spending an hour trying to save her $100ish
17:01 <@kanzure> oh wait, what are the requirements to run credit card processing on a merchant account on websites these days?
17:01 <@kanzure> do they put a minimum like only 2048-bit ssl certs?
17:02 < streety> I've no idea, is this 'get the SSL' person handling that? If so I suspect not
17:03 <@kanzure> well i was going to have mom get rid of the "SSL person" in this context and just tell her to use https://cert.startcom.org/ certs
17:03 < streety> godaddy.com only offers 256-bit certs, same as startcom
17:04 <@kanzure> ah didn't know
17:04 < streety> startcom don't install though, do they?
17:05 <@kanzure> what, adding a SSLCertificateFile directive to somewhere?
17:05 <@kanzure> that's not a good reason to use godaddy
17:05 < brownies> kanzure: tell your mom to use Stripe
17:05 < brownies> i mean, wtfbbq.
17:05 < chris_99> 256 bit just refers to the AES bit length right?
17:05 < brownies> any agency who recommends GoDaddy for anything should immediately be fired.
17:05 <@kanzure> brownies: she's selling sex chairs, which seems to be against their TOS
17:05 <@kanzure> brownies: yeah no kidding
17:05 < brownies> kanzure: oh. really? what if she just calls them "really really comfortable chairs"
17:05 <@kanzure> brownies: i told her these people are idiots, but then she asked me to do it for $2000 and i declined.
17:05 < brownies> "activity chairs"
17:06 < brownies> kanzure: she's paying $2000 to set up SSL? shit, i'll do that...
17:06 <@kanzure> she's paying $2000 to setup some shitty wordpress site with a merchant account
17:06 < brownies> kanzure: why is she using fucking wordpress instead of an existing eCommerce SaaS?
17:07 <@kanzure> because realistically she's not going to pay me to do this right for her
17:07 <@kanzure> and she doesn't listen to me anyway. it took me two years to get her on dropbox.
17:08 < brownies> so she's offered you $2000 but she's not going to pay?
17:08 < brownies> i agree, that sounds like a bad deal, then.
17:09 <@kanzure> $2000 isn't enough to get me to use wordpress
17:09 <@kanzure> i don't want to be responsible for that
17:10 < nsh> hahaha
17:10 < nsh> (sorry if srs)
17:10 <@kanzure> i am serious. wordpress jobs are the worst. the pay is low, the customers are idiots and poor.
17:10 < streety> I seriously doubt godaddy install the cert either, but if you don't know what you're doing I can see how you might be happy to be charged for the installation
17:10 < streety> and it's your fault when they're hacked
17:11 < brownies> yeah, i agree
17:11 < brownies> kanzure: i skimmed over the Shopify ToS, as well as my friend's eCommerce platform, but they both have generic phrasing against "obscene" storefronts
17:11 < brownies> "obscene" and "pornographic" which a sufficiently dickish admin could interpret at will, basically.
17:11 <@kanzure> well, sure.
17:12 <@kanzure> stripe is also unacceptable because of the 7-day turnaround in her case
17:13 < jrayhawk> The PCI standards don't care about the validation scheme.
17:13 <@kanzure> nmz787's gf did pci audit work for a while and had some hilarious stories.
17:14 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:14 < jrayhawk> Eh, PCI's a joke either way. It's essentially impossible to be fully compliant, and being fully compliant is not particularly protective.
17:14 < jrayhawk> it's just a big responsibility dodge
17:15 <@kanzure> so uh, i'm replying to mom's email, and i need some way to inform her people about how they should feel bad about using godaddy
17:15 < brownies> kanzure: dude, 7 days is really generous.
17:15 <@kanzure> eh?
17:15 < brownies> many places will hold your funds for 30 days
17:16 <@kanzure> merchant accounts?
17:16 < jrayhawk> "Hi. I have a certificate for https://secure.diyhpl.us/ that took fifteen minutes to set up and cost no money. Perhaps you should look into StartCom?"
17:16 < brownies> and other places will give them to you, but make you sign something saying they can drain money from your bank account at will
17:16 < brownies> kanzure: yes, re: your comment about Stripe and 7 days.
17:17 < brownies> "only idiots use GoDaddy."
17:17 < streety> alternatively pitch it as startcom gives you that ever so cool green trusted name for less than godaddy charge
17:17 < streety> for the standard
17:17 <@kanzure> nah the cert thing in this case is for the cc processing
17:17 < jrayhawk> Actually I don't think you can get the fancy green one unless you pay $120.
17:18 <@kanzure> man why isn't there a general "why paypal is awful" and "why godaddy is awful and you shouldn't base your business around it" explanation site?
17:18 < streety> oh sorry, I think you are right
17:18 < jrayhawk> oh, no wait, even the $120 version doesn't get you the green.
17:20 <@kanzure> hah forbes has "7 reasons you should use godaddy", and then a link in the serp for "5 reasons you shouldn't use godaddy"
17:20 <@kanzure> forbes sucks these days.
17:20 < jrayhawk> all periodicals suck
17:21 <@kanzure> yeah except forbes is good at getting into search results, even if you hate them
17:23 < brownies> economist.com is holding on to their prestige, mostly
17:23 < brownies> although even they recently did a fluff piece solely dedicated to a single app
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17:24 <@kanzure> will they do a fluff piece about /my/ app?
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17:24 < jrayhawk> claim that your galaga knockoff is a social revolution
17:25 < brownies> kanzure: btw http://generalassemb.ly/education/learn-web-development-sf/
17:25 < brownies> heh. i'm sure it must've been an impressive publicist who got that Economist hit
17:26 -!- tashoutang [~tata@pc131090206.ntunhs.edu.tw] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:26 <@kanzure> "back end instructor to be announced" heh
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17:36 < nsh> don't trust godaddy for SSL pls
17:40 <@kanzure> no kidding
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17:47 < brownies> kanzure: well, i found the price and structure more interesting
17:47 < brownies> kanzure: $5000 for about 8 hours of class per week for N weeks
17:48 <@kanzure> so does this mean there's now a market for high-priced one-on-one tutoring?
17:48 <@kanzure> s/this/these
17:50 < streety> how big is N?
18:11 < delinquentme> THERE WAS THIS ONE TIME... that I was working on a project... in which a guy decided to roll his own library .. with the same name as another library .. which happens to do the same thing
18:12 < delinquentme> and he thought it was a good habit.
18:13 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-72-83-254-253.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:13 < Burninate> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3068/does-castration-longer-life
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18:26 < brownies> kanzure: it's a 20:1 class
18:27 < brownies> kanzure: there's also that one guy who charges $1000/hr for iphone tutoring
18:27 < brownies> kanzure: so if you want that, you first need to make a hipster todo app!
18:29 <@kanzure> oh tutoring? i thought that was just his "make you some code" rate
18:30 <@kanzure> it's funny how much people pay for 20:1
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18:40 < Mariu> Burninate, ask Cecil what he thinks about indefinite life spans
18:40 < Mariu> =]
18:47 <@kanzure> so, what's all this bogus stuff about "is this line secured?"
18:48 <@kanzure> oh i see, it's just a lazy way of saying "let's use encryption", not "do you know if anyone has a tap".
18:49 <@kanzure> hrm. "Fishbowl is a mobile phone architecture developed by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) to provide a secure Voice over IP (VoIP) capability using commercial grade products that can be approved to communicate classified information."
18:49 <@kanzure> hah "Only NSA approved applications from the NSA enterprise app store can be installed."
18:49 <@kanzure> http://www.nsa.gov/ia/_files/Mobility_Capability_Pkg_(Version_1.1U).pdf
18:50 <@kanzure> "rogue base-station risk". neat..
18:51 < brownies> kanzure: oh? i'd like a secure communication medium
18:51 < brownies> now that Skype has completely failed in every part of its mission, and all
18:51 -!- CryptoQuick [~Alex@c-174-51-232-237.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:51 < CryptoQuick> sup, kanzure
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18:52 <@kanzure> brownies: i bet disposable tor phones would be popular :p
18:52 <@kanzure> CryptoQuick: hello
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18:53 < CryptoQuick> kanzure: what do you think of amorphous silicon thin film PV grown from CVD?
18:53 < CryptoQuick> (in a DIY sense, of course)
18:53 <@kanzure> CVD isn't super-diy-friendly.
18:54 < CryptoQuick> :T
18:54 <@kanzure> hah "The "red phone" was using encryption. Actually, it was using the most secure encryption ever: a one-time pad. The random pad (XORed with the data to send) was exchanged on magnetic tapes every week, by special diplomatic planes."
18:57 < CryptoQuick> kanzure: if you wanted to make solar panels, what process would you use?
18:57 <@kanzure> cheap human labor?
18:57 <@kanzure> i haven't looked into it.
18:57 < brownies> interesting
18:58 < brownies> kanzure: problem with cell phones of any sort is that you immediately invite triangulation based on cell tower signal
18:58 <@kanzure> unless you have multiple phones
19:00 < skorket> ok, height mapping is done.  Discrepancy between successive runs is under 2 mils.  Program to interpret gcode and interpolate based on the height map is done.  I think it's time to do a test run
19:02 < brownies> kanzure: how does that change anything? o.O
19:03 <@kanzure> brownies: they would only be able to triangulate multiple targets that look the same (except for location)
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19:03 < brownies> kanzure: oh, i suppose.
19:03 <@kanzure> you might also be able to spoof a signal power level
19:03 < brownies> CryptoQuick: iirc they use thin-film lithography to make solar cells?
19:04 <@kanzure> there's a bunch of methods
19:04 < jrayhawk> xmpp does text/audio/video and uses secure transports on everything by default
19:06 < docl> Anyone know anything about this company? http://www.biostasislabs.com/
19:11 < JayDugger> Good evening, eveyone.
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19:18 < skorket> evening JayDugger
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19:24 < skorket> “If [Tangibot's funding] is successful, MakerBot will have to revise their Open Source policy and become closed source. "
19:24 < skorket> http://blog.makezine.com/2012/09/19/is-one-of-our-open-source-heroes-going-closed-source/
19:24 < skorket> wtf?
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19:25 < skorket> It amazes me.  "If a company uses our open source/open hardware, we're going close source"
19:26 <@kanzure> people are eager to forget how makerbot's style of open source is "open source, except for this core element or impossible-to-source part"
19:27 < skorket> by people, you mean makerbot
19:27 <@kanzure> no i mean people. people think makerbot is some sort of great example of open source.
19:27 <@kanzure> it's not that great of an example.
19:28 < skorket> it's a successful company that releases it code under some type of GPL.  Why not a great example?
19:29 <@kanzure> that's just source code. makerbot is primarily about hardware.
19:30 < skorket> ok, but they also release their stuff under whatever equivalent license there is for open hardware
19:30 <@kanzure> nah, there's a few pieces that are an exception
19:30 < skorket> for the makerbot?
19:31 <@kanzure> i haven't built one (why would i? reprap is cheaper and more open anyway), but that's what i hear, yes.
19:31 < skorket> ah, interesting
19:31 <@kanzure> the peeps in #reprap will have an exact part name to give you if you ask about makerbot open source exceptions
19:32 -!- marainein [~net@2001:388:608c:6cb5:9dd1:6f7e:8164:643d] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:32 < skorket> ha!
19:36 < Burninate>  `Skorket: What are you heightmapping?
19:37 <@kanzure> wtf so prusa claims that makerbot firmware is closed source.
19:37 < skorket> aren't they using an arduino or something?
19:38 <@kanzure> well you know, #reprap is probably fucking biased
19:38 <@kanzure> try #makerbot
19:39 < skorket> Burninate, PCBs
19:43 < brownies> kanzure: dammit
19:43 < brownies> kanzure: there are loud idiots in the conference room saying dumb things about SEO
19:43 <@kanzure> hahah
19:43 < brownies> kanzure: and it's slowly driving me mad
19:43 < brownies> and they all have terrible accents
19:44 <@kanzure> why does SEO inspire the greatest idiocy?
19:45 < brownies> "just put these magic things on your web site, and millions of visitors will flow in!"
19:45 <@kanzure> seo lucky rabbit foot
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19:52 < brownies> that would be a good name for an SEO firm
20:16 <@kanzure> "Bad HTTP request line: 'GET / HTTP/1.1\r\n"
20:30 <@kanzure> "Godaddy is reliable and you can get a hold of real people anytime with good technical support for domains and SSL - we have worked with them for years."
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20:30 <@kanzure> i'm not sure how to help mom in this case
20:30 <@kanzure> it's like a fountain of anti-truth
20:31 <@kanzure> "Well, we will take a look at start com - however we and many clients we have had some pretty bad experiences (some nightmares actually) getting domains and SSLs from companies that were small and not very reputable."
20:31 <@kanzure> "They have had to give up on domains because they couldn't get a hold of anyone for help and the SSLs were not reputable. My experience in a lot of these cases is you get what you pay for."
20:31 <@kanzure> "SSLs" how cute.
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20:39 < jrayhawk> did she outsource to an eastern bloc country
20:45 < nsh> kanzure
20:45 < nsh> source of that quote?
20:46 < nsh> because if it's godaddy talking about how good they are with ssl
20:46 < nsh> i may explode in a puff of hilarity
20:52 <@kanzure> nsh: it's the person my mom hired to build her website :(
20:52 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: actually.. it's this woman in austin who outsources to some russians.
20:52 < nsh> well
20:53 < nsh> at least if he does it on godaddy, i have a convenient way of accessing the backups when it needs to be moved to a real host.
20:55 < jrayhawk> i guess cognitive problems are an asset for web development
20:55 <@kanzure> a lot of web developers work for poor people. it's really crazy.
20:56 <@kanzure> morethanyourplumber.com
20:56 < nsh> funfact: i once found a private key for a root certificate signing authority on a secureserver host
20:56 < nsh> so the fact that they can even talk about ssl security with a straight face is a joke
20:57 <@kanzure> do you have a copy?
20:59 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: proxydroid seems to use something called 'redsocks' to manipulate iptables.
20:59 <@kanzure> https://github.com/madeye/proxydroid
20:59 <@kanzure> https://github.com/darkk/redsocks
20:59 <@kanzure> it looks like this is just a wrapper around iptables, but i'm not completely sure why.
21:00 <@kanzure> https://github.com/madeye/proxydroid/blob/master/assets/proxy.sh#L13
21:00 < nsh> kanzure, no it seemed above my paygrade and i told someone who's job it was to worry about things like that
21:01 <@kanzure> you had someone you would trust with a private key to a CA?
21:01 <@kanzure> CSA
21:02 < nsh> it was publically accessible via http because of a malicious symlink and bad apache directives
21:03 < nsh> i didn't want anything else to do with it
21:03 < jrayhawk> haha awesome
21:04 < nsh> if you ever want to see where not to host your website google something like inurl:txt/var/mail or inurl:sym/var/mail
21:04 < nsh> common extension/name used for the link
21:04 < nsh> lots of hosters with massive customer bases on shared hosting allow you to browse the entire filesystem through apache
21:04 < nsh> i don't know how these people make money
21:05 <@kanzure> i'm still surprised shared hosting is a thing
21:05 < brownies> they charge $5 per yaer for shared hosting
21:05 < brownies> so it iwll always be a thing
21:05 < brownies> nsh: jesus relaly?
21:05 < nsh> brownies, yup
21:06 <@kanzure> that's international espionage shit right there
21:06 <@kanzure> shouldn't you disclose their idiocy or something?
21:07 < nsh> there are people who get paid for that
21:07 < nsh> if you tell people they've done something stupid, they'll just find another way to do it
21:07 <@kanzure> and most companies wont understand.
21:07 < nsh> to fix security culture is beyond my means
21:11 < nsh> case in point: http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/sipb/user/kolya/afs/root.afs/
21:11 < brownies> one of the organizations i was consulting for was doing a web site redesign...
21:11 < nsh> that's the andrew filesystem for the athena cluster at MIT
21:11 < nsh> someone symlinked it from their user directory
21:11 < brownies> they asked me to manage the bidding process, and they ended up seriously considering bids in the $10K range for a Wordpress site
21:11 < nsh> which makes sense
21:11 < nsh> lol
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21:13 < nsh> by that mathematics, i have friends who own $200,000,000 worth of websites
21:13 <@kanzure> brownies: what was the project? i mean, some people do have multi-million-dollar wordpress setups (like the wordpress hosts)..
21:13 < brownies> kanzure: no, it was some static pages and a blog.
21:13 < brownies> oh, and the design was already done, so this was purely for the "coding"
21:13 <@kanzure> well, if you go too low you'll end up with idiots like my mom's doing
21:13 < brownies> i ended up rejecting all the bids and doing it myself in an afternoon... in retrospect i should've put in a $5K bid.
21:14 < brownies> but i was young and naive in those days =P
21:14 < brownies> younger and more naive, anyway.
21:14 < nsh> :)
21:14 < nsh> you can't hold on to your youth, but goddamnit, you can stay naive
21:15 < brownies> haha
21:16 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: do you have any advice for iptables wizardry to redirect everything through mitmproxy?
21:16 < jrayhawk> I thought mitmproxy already had instructions on that front?
21:18 <@kanzure> their android instructions are "use proxydroid"
21:19 <@kanzure> proxydroid uses redsocks which is compiled only for armeabi
21:19 <@kanzure> i could recompile redsocks for android x86 but then i'd have to recompile proxydroid too.
21:21 < jrayhawk> eh, i am too tired to research this
21:21 <@kanzure> ok. just wanted to know if there was something excruciatingly obvious.
21:26 < nsh> kanzure, dont these things respect http_proxy variable?
21:27 < nsh> can wrap with proxychains
21:28 <@kanzure> no they don't respect http_proxy
21:29 <@kanzure> i want something that would work regardless of how awful application programmers were.
21:32 < nsh> something like: iptables -t nat -A PREROUTING -i <inface> -p tcp --dport 80 -j REDIRECT --to-port <mitm-port>
21:35 < nsh> (maybe, iptables is a dark art)
21:37 <@kanzure> nsh: the one thing i've noticed from that is that john carmack likes to make lots of typos in his READMEs
21:37 <@kanzure> http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/sipb/user/kolya/afs/root.afs/sipb/contrib/idgames/src/doom-1.10/README
21:38 < nsh> lol
21:39 < nsh> there's a lot of things there from the 90s
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21:40 < nsh> and vaxen
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21:41 <@kanzure> they seem to run a multics instance?
21:43  * nsh nods
21:43 < nsh> not sure if it's virtual
21:43 < nsh> probably not
21:45 <@kanzure> "The last known running Multics installation was shut down on October 30, 2000, at the Canadian Department of National Defence in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada"
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21:49 < eudoxia> christ how does a defense organization keep using multics until 2000
21:50 <@kanzure> oh neat i didn't know there was a public dump of its source code
21:50 <@kanzure> http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/source/ldd_listings/bos/restor.list
21:56 < nsh> cool
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22:07 <@kanzure> "A MakerGear Prusa did 10 micron layers a whole ago and I know an Ultimaker driver who's poked around at ~0.75 micons, though that wasn't really "layers" - it was more of a single-step spiral print."
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23:44 <@kanzure> "Apollon Oikonomopoulos"
23:44 <@kanzure> quite a name.
--- Log closed Thu Sep 20 00:00:31 2012