--- Log opened Thu Sep 20 00:00:31 2012
00:26 -!- jmil [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has quit [Quit: jmil]
00:31 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
01:09 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
01:49 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
02:01 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:06 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:10 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.tiera.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:28 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.tiera.org] has left ##hplusroadmap []
02:43 -!- marainein [~net@2001:388:608c:6cb5:513e:2647:e0c8:c7d4] has joined ##hplusroadmap
02:47 -!- tashoutang [~tata@pc131090206.ntunhs.edu.tw] has quit []
03:11 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-72-83-254-253.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:27 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@203.118.181.245] has joined ##hplusroadmap
03:37 -!- fenn [~fenn@131.252.130.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
03:37 -!- fenn [~fenn@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:15 -!- panax [~panax@72.187.64.192] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
04:16 -!- panax [panax@131.247.116.67] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:17 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:50 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@109.74.3.24] has joined ##hplusroadmap
04:51 -!- hifrog [~swamp@p5B16DA6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:10 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@203.118.181.245] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
05:21 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@109.74.3.24] has quit [Quit: Tabrenus]
05:39 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
05:50 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Quit: bbl]
06:07 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:19 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-12-57.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
06:55 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-12-57.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
06:57 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:11 < strangewarp> Hmmm
07:11 < strangewarp> I ought to pick up some bags of yerba mate; I had a can of Guayaki yerba mate yesterday and it seemed to have an interesting effect on top of the noopept and Cognizin
07:12 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-173-66-12-57.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:16 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:21 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
07:24 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:26 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.11.109] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:26 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.11.109] has quit [Changing host]
07:26 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:28 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:32 -!- archels [~foo@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap
07:36 < nsh> lol
08:29 < strangewarp> Oh, what the fuck
08:30 < strangewarp> Another one of my favorite intellectual blogs started slamming transhumanism out of nowhere -_-
08:30 < strangewarp> Only brought it up in terms of Kurzweilian capitalist technocracy, and how said thing is terrible, of course
08:34 < Mariu> strangewarp, they enjoy their comfort zone too much. And "Kurzweilian capitalist technocracy" is not comfortable for their basic perceptions.
08:34 < strangewarp> I am annoyed by how transhumanism's silliness is assumed to go without saying, by otherwise decent and interesting bloggers, argh
08:35 < strangewarp> Mariu, yeah
08:39 < JayDugger> So...going to update your favorites based on your new knowledge about their assumptions?
08:40 <@kanzure> or you can delete your rss aggregator and stop reading blogs
08:46 < strangewarp> JayDugger: nah, the blog has multiple authors, and is occasionally interesting
08:46 < skorket> HaD picked up the MakerBot controversy
08:47 < skorket> TIL, Bre Pattis is from Ithaca
08:47 < strangewarp> kanzure: I used to read many more blogs, and of much lower quality; I think I will eventually mostly stop reading them, but I've tried giving them up entirely and it creates a gaping hole in my routine that is awful
08:53 -!- jmil [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:58 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.TiERA.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:59 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-242-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
08:59 < eudoxia> which intellectual blog was that?
08:59 < strangewarp> The New Inquiry
08:59 < strangewarp> Honestly I might have overreacted
08:59 < strangewarp> It was just half a paragraph's worth of fretting about the semiotics of ridiculous techno-optimism
09:01 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:02 < kirka> I find this paper interesting: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1705.full.pdf
09:04 <@kanzure> kirka: do you know leonid evdokimov?
09:04 < kirka> Nope
09:04 <@kanzure> you are in st. petersburg?
09:04 < kirka> Yes I am
09:05 <@kanzure> you should go find him :)
09:05 < Mariu> :p
09:05 <@kanzure> http://darkk.net.ru/
09:06 < kirka> What's special about him?
09:06 <@kanzure> he writes very clean C
09:06 <@kanzure> people who write clean C are good friends to keep
09:06 < kirka> Heh
09:07 < kirka> btw
09:07 < kirka> I managed to run NE1, load large models and use Atoms tool
09:08 < kirka> Switched off HW acceleartion and patched >10 source files
09:08 <@kanzure> neat
09:08 < kirka> DNA insertion doesn't work though
09:09 < kirka> Now I can say that I don't like at all how it's written
09:09 <@kanzure> yes, it's not adherrent to many python idioms
09:10 < kirka> There are many elaborate cache strategies, color sorting, hardware model rotation is very complex and errorprone, and DNA and proteins aren't represented as atoms, that adds additional complexity
09:10 < kirka> But I like interface and atom editor
09:11 <@kanzure> i think DNA is represented as atoms clustered together, right?
09:12 < kirka> Hmmh
09:13 < kirka> You are probably right
09:13 < kirka> But aren't there other classes over it?
09:13 <@kanzure> yes
09:14 < kirka> I'm thinking about architecture of atomic/molecular CAD
09:14 < kirka> Without DNA and proteins it becomes mich simpler
09:15 < kirka> When I'll write my own CAD, I won't include that functionality
09:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-242-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:17  * kirka loaded Neon Pump
09:19 -!- jmil [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:19 -!- jmil_ [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:22 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:23 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:25 <@kanzure> drama http://marcuswolschon.blogspot.com/2012/09/occupy-thingiverse.html .
09:25 <@kanzure> more drama http://web.archive.org/web/20110707143620/http://www.thingiverse.com/legal
09:27 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
09:27 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:28 <@kanzure> nmz787: hi
09:28 < kirka> nmz787 hi
09:28 < nmz787> hi
09:28 < nmz787> ever figure out that git stuff?
09:29 < kirka> I think I have
09:29 < nmz787> kanzure: have you tried running kirka's code out of a chrott?
09:29 < nmz787> chroot*
09:29 < kirka> >I managed to run NE1, load large models and use Atoms tool
09:29 < nmz787> did opengl ever get better?
09:30 < nmz787> or sstill 5fps?
09:30 < kirka> I switched off HW acceleration in VM and digged source code
09:30 <@kanzure> i haven't tried his changes yet no.
09:30 < kirka> http://rghost.net/40480498.view
09:30 <@kanzure> nmz787: i think the next reasonable thing to do with nanoengineer is to separate the GUI from the backend code.
09:31 < kirka> kanzure I agree
09:31 <@kanzure> the "import" statements should not be so intertwined.
09:31 <@kanzure> most of this stuff doesn't require third-party libraries (except for graphics)
09:32 < kirka> kanzure If I knew the class layout and dependencies, then I probably could cut graphics stuff from codebase and replace it with something
09:32 <@kanzure> i don't think removing it is the right answer
09:32 < kirka> It would be nice to include all numeric (and other) python libraries with NE1
09:32 <@kanzure> just disabling it or letting it continue with pyqt4 failure
09:32 <@kanzure> no!
09:32 <@kanzure> wtf no.
09:32 < kirka> Heh
09:32 <@kanzure> that's what pypi.python.org is for
09:33 <@kanzure> if you need the packages, there's some here:
09:33 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/dependencies/
09:33 < kirka> So, when they finally deprecate python.oldnumeric , you'll have to redesign whole source around numpy API
09:33 < kirka> Oh, thank
09:39 <@kanzure> diybio should do a key signing party
09:42 <@kanzure> wait, do i trust these people?
09:42 < kirka> So feds are really after diybio guys?
09:42 <@kanzure> kirka: the feds collaborate with us
09:42 < kirka> Oh
09:42 <@kanzure> every year the FBI holds a meeting and they fly us out (nmz787 was there too)
09:42 <@kanzure> here are the transcripts from the 2012 diybio/fbi meeting:
09:43 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/
09:47 < kirka> kanzure Seems that your and others' focus is biohacking now, not MNT
09:48 <@kanzure> don't put me in a box :(
09:48 < kirka> Heh
09:48 < kirka> Sorry
09:49 < kirka> I don't like being put into the box too
09:50 < nmz787> MNT == Mutant Ninja Turtles??
09:50 < kirka> :)
09:51 < nmz787> I would say that mutating turtles to learn ninja skills is biohacking
09:51 < nmz787> what do you really mean by MNT?
09:51 < kirka> Molecular NanoTechnology of course
09:51 < nmz787> o
09:52 < nmz787> proteins and shit are moleculars
09:52 < kirka> Yes
09:52 < nmz787> we talk about them a lot
09:52 < kirka> I'm interested in protein structure design and prediction
09:52 < nmz787> kanzure even has helped me a lot with figuring out a path to DIY DNA synthesis
09:52 < nmz787> that should be better than what exists on the market today
09:53 < kirka> Cool
09:53 < nmz787> are you a member of the DIYbio google group?:
09:53 < kirka> Nope
09:53 < kirka> I'll read it, thanks
09:53 < nmz787> ahh, if you're interested in biohacking stuff you should join
09:53 < nmz787> i just posted the other day about an idea for protein folding experiments
09:54 < nmz787> but it seems that the group is less active lately, especially with more experienced folks
09:55 < kirka> The thing is that I'm still studying, so I can become bioinformatics guy in the future
09:55 < kirka> That;s one of many possibilities
09:56 < kirka> CS, ML and numeric methods are applied everywhere
10:01 < nmz787> do you know any ML?
10:02 < kirka> Yes I do
10:03 < kirka> But I still have a lot to learn
10:10 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:11 < nmz787> ahh, coolo
10:12 <@kanzure> nmz787: do you happen to be an iptables master?
10:12 < nmz787> my girlfriend and i are learning artificial neural networks
10:12 < nmz787> not a master, no... but I can generally get it to do what I want after searching the manual/nets
10:12 < kirka> ANNs have a renaissance now
10:13 < nmz787> in the past I've also used firestarter as a GUI for iptables
10:16 -!- highfrog [~swamp@p5B16DA6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:20 < kirka> Software rendering works pretty fast if I give VM 4 of 6 cores
10:20 -!- hifrog [~swamp@p5B16DA6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
10:21 < kirka> Ah, a lot of parts coming with NE1 are really well designed
10:21 < kirka> Bevel gears for example
10:22 < kirka> And universal joint, and planetary gears
10:22 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:23 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:23 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.TiERA.org] has left ##hplusroadmap []
10:24 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.TiERA.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:31 < nmz787> so fastcompany never posted my comment that i submitted yesterday
10:31 <@kanzure> nah you have to wait longer i think
10:32 < nmz787> hmm
10:32 <@kanzure> or, if other comments were posted, then that indicates they did can it
10:32 < nmz787> there are 2 other comments
10:32 <@kanzure> ah :(
10:32 < nmz787> yeah
10:32 < nmz787> i guess the normos wont ever hear of our FAQ
10:32 <@kanzure> mac still hasn't updated diybio.org to link to it
10:32 < nmz787> hah
10:32 < nmz787> they fixed the spelling errors
10:35 < kirka> Haven't you read about DIY STM?
10:35 -!- qnm [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has joined ##hplusroadmap
10:36 < kirka> I know, it's virtually impossible to acheive good precision
10:36 <@kanzure> nmz787: you should post the comment you made to fastcompany on diybio, since they wont publish it
10:37 < nmz787> well i reposted the faq/news link
10:38 <@kanzure> it would be fun to do a markov chain bot based on all of the text from all of those articles
10:38 <@kanzure> it would be the most excited, pro-open-source, WMD fearmongering bot ever.
10:38 < delinquentme> spent 20 bucks for laser cut molds :D
10:38 < delinquentme> <<, happy kid
10:39 < delinquentme> anyone wanna dance??
10:39 <@kanzure> delinquentme is high from co2 fumes from the laser cutter
10:39 < delinquentme> nmz787, also theres a makerfaire this weekend
10:39 < delinquentme> kanzure, they said that was a clean air port!
10:39 < kirka> kanzure I have done it in scheme, and trained it on classical russian literature
10:40 < kirka> kanzure He spoke like mad aristocrat
10:41 < nmz787> done
10:41 <@kanzure> i want one that speaks like a very mad scientist
10:41 <@kanzure> an ANGRY scientist
10:41 < nmz787> lol
10:42 < nmz787> kanzure: i'm in pittsburgh, not NYC this week
10:42 <@kanzure> you meant delinquentme i think
10:42 < delinquentme> yeahh there is a local pgh one :D
10:42 < delinquentme> haha so like there might be a robot there
10:42 < delinquentme> IDK though ... w cmu
10:45 < kirka> http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Project_overview.html http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Progress.html That's it
10:45 <@kanzure> there are others
10:46 < delinquentme> if (!self.md5.blank? and File.exists?(File.join(DBFile.make_md5_path(self.md5),self.md5)) and !File.join(DBFile.make_md5_path(self.md5),self.md5).match(/[^A-Za-z0-9\/]/)) or (File.exists?(self.file_path) and ACCESSIBLE_FOLDERS.select { |af| self.file_path.index(af) == 0 }.length > 0 )
10:46 < delinquentme> kirka, what is this im looking at?
10:47 < nmz787> nah i meant kanzure, because you mentioned makerfaire
10:47 < nmz787> kirka: that's your STM?
10:48 < nmz787> unless all makerfaires happen this weekend
10:48 < nmz787> oO
10:48 < nmz787> it is in pitts thi weekend
10:48 < kirka> No, of course
10:49 < kirka> I just read that article and find it interesting
10:49 <@kanzure> delinquentme: looks like ruby to me
10:49 < kirka> 100 nM resolution
10:49 < brownies> yup. definitely rubies.
10:49 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:50 < delinquentme> kanzure, yeah
10:50 < kirka> I haven't seen any finidhed STM project on the net though
10:50 < kirka> *finished
10:50 < delinquentme> guy makes his own attachment plugin... names it paperclip
10:51 <@kanzure> kirka: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/07/how_to_build_a_simple_scanning.html
10:51 < nmz787> delinquentme: wanna meet at makerfaire?
10:51 <@kanzure> http://www.bsc.ustc.edu.cn/~jlyang/research/STMWebPage.html
10:51 <@kanzure> http://www.bsc.ustc.edu.cn/~jlyang/research/STMWebPage.html
10:51 <@kanzure> http://www.lugoj.com/NanotechSTMArticles/HomeBrewSTMs.html
10:51 <@kanzure> http://www.e-basteln.de/index_o.htm
10:51 < delinquentme> nmz787, im seeing about weekend accomodations in the burgh
10:51 <@kanzure> http://stm2.nrl.navy.mil/how-afm/how-afm.html
10:51 < delinquentme> also i might bring some electronics
10:51 < delinquentme> :D
10:52 <@kanzure> http://www.chem.pacificu.edu/Johnson/JohnsonResearch/STM/PIEZO.HTM
10:52 < delinquentme> the guts of the shaker ... as I've got a encoder to wire up and figure out how i'd like to run frequency and start / stop
10:52 < nmz787> ahh, hmm, I wish I could offer a place to crash but there just isn't space here
10:52 <@kanzure> kirka: the makezine one is probably most usefl.
10:52 <@kanzure> *useful
10:52 < delinquentme> nmz787, do you know nick??
10:52 < nmz787> nick?
10:52 < nmz787> brewer?
10:52 < delinquentme> pinkston yeah
10:52 < delinquentme> kanzure, kinda knows him
10:52 <@kanzure> pinkston is in sf
10:52 < kirka> kanzure Thanks but makezine is dead, I have read e-basteln and http://www.lugoj.com/NanotechSTMArticles/HomeBrewSTMs.html looks useful
10:53 <@kanzure> makezine is dead? wtf wtf
10:53 < nmz787> i dont know anyone named pinkston
10:53 < delinquentme> but hell be there as well as some dude who worked on the lasersaurs in pgh
10:53 < nmz787> i thihnk
10:53 <@kanzure> pinkston did cloudfab.com and sold it
10:53 < kirka> Using piezo buzzer as actuator is very creative
10:53 < delinquentme> kanzure, hes here for the part this weekend :D
10:53 < delinquentme> Y U NO HERE HOMESLICE?!
10:53 < delinquentme> pgh = clearly the coolest place on earth
10:53 < delinquentme> for 3.5 days
10:53 < delinquentme> haha
10:53 <@kanzure> kirka: ok how about this one.. http://blog.makezine.com/2006/07/30/how-to-build-a-simple-sca/
10:53 < kirka> Thanks
10:53 <@kanzure> oh it just links to geocities
10:53 <@kanzure> how sad
10:54 < kirka> Ah yes
10:54 < kirka> The most complex part is actuator and tip
10:54 <@kanzure> delinquentme: he's doing some non-profit thing for open source hardware/manufacturing. you should say hi to him.
10:54 < kirka> I have experience in electronics/programming
10:55 < kirka> If I were going to do it, I would build tunneling current measuring unit first
10:56 <@kanzure> kirka: i think the parts are <$2000
10:56 < kirka> And I expect that it's quite complex to distinguish tunnel current from dirst current or short circuit
10:56 <@kanzure> make a bill of materials with the necessary parts, and i can purchase them, if you agree to make it an open source project
10:56 < kirka> Heh
10:57 < kirka> I agree, but I have to learn a lot before I would start this projects with confidence
10:57 < kirka> I'm not in a hurry though
10:57 < delinquentme> kanzure, pinkston is?
10:58 < delinquentme> he told me about the mfg .. but I didn't know it was OS
11:00 < kirka> kanzure I will begin collecting information about STM designs. I will upload it as I'll have progress
11:01 <@kanzure> kirka: please consider adding the information to diyhpluswiki.git
11:01 < kirka> Index http://www.e-basteln.de/index_r.htm
11:01 < kirka> Yes
11:01 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki
11:01 <@kanzure> it's a git-based wiki, so you can edit on the web or with your normal text editors
11:01 <@kanzure> and STM stuff should be on there :)
11:01 < kirka> Ok
11:04 <@kanzure> hmm it looks like pieter van boheeemen is in the news again
11:04 <@kanzure> http://venturebeat.com/2012/09/20/dutch-bio-hackers-mobilize-malaria-testing/
11:04 <@kanzure> "Lava Amp makes a $300 machine to run PCR but not to diagnose a particular disease."
11:05 <@kanzure> what? jojack hasn't released lava amp.. you can't buy one
11:05 <@kanzure> hah i never knew they had content on their site
11:05 <@kanzure> http://www.lava-amp.com/
11:05 <@kanzure> "Amplino was founded in 2012, is based in Leiden in the Netherlands, has three employees, and is privately funded."
11:05 <@kanzure> ok is that really DIY?
11:07 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:11 < gnusha> diyhpluswiki.git: dfd65d1 an article about amplino/pieter
11:15 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
11:17 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:20 < kirka> kanzure It would be very cool if someone have shown working STM with piezo disk actuator
11:20 < kirka> kanzure piezo disks are dirt cheap
11:21 < kirka> There should be some pitfall, as Idon't see any finished STMs with that approach
11:22 < nmz787> i think they are expensive if you dont make them yourselves (the tip)
11:22 < nmz787> and they are hard to make if i recall correctly
11:22 < kirka> Actuator and precise mechanics are the most costly parts
11:22 < kirka> Yes they are
11:23 < nmz787> there's gotta be some law of physics we're not exploiting to see small stuff cheaply
11:23 < kirka> STM seems most cheap technique
11:23 < nmz787> DNA origami tips?
11:24 < kirka> I thought about that. They probably will not fold in free air or vacuum. IBM guys use CO-termintaed tips: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/news/12/ncAFM.html
11:24 < nmz787> kanzure: i always thought the consensus on DIYbio was that you'd get the pants sued off you for making a qPCR machine
11:25 < nmz787> well that's cutting edge
11:26 < kirka> I made a local mirror of gecities STM site. Important information.
11:28 < nmz787> kanzure: what is it called when you have two options for an answer but only 1 is appropriate
11:28 < nmz787> like when you take the square root of something
11:29 < nmz787> there is always the negative answer
11:37 < kirka> That guy uses completely analog electronics with integrators and so on. It would be much easier to put there some high resolution DACs and microcontroller, and connect it to PC with UART.
11:38 < kirka> That's his design http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Electronics_discription.html
11:39 < kirka> Of course OPAMPs would be still nedded, but there wouldn't be analog control loop
11:39 < kirka> *neede
11:40 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@203.118.181.245] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:43 < nmz787> what part are you talking about
11:44 < nmz787> i mean what does the integrator do?
11:44 < nmz787> analog is usually more responsive though
11:44 < nmz787> right?
11:44 < kirka> Yes you are right
11:45 < kirka> I'll find about integrator, wait
11:45 < nmz787> so you'd probably lose resolution in some axis if you went digital
11:45 < nmz787> or had to scan more slowly
11:45 < kirka> No
11:45 < kirka> Yes speed would be lower
11:45 < nmz787> and add some statistical noise reduction later (DSP)
11:45 < kirka> But on 10 mhz AVR controller I could easily do 100khz control loop
11:46 < kirka> *20 mhz
11:46 < nmz787> yeah but comparing to analog *infitine hertz*
11:46 < nmz787> you could use an FPGA and get pretty high
11:46 < kirka> No, opamps have pretty finite bandwidth
11:46 < nmz787> or some of the OMAP processors would work well
11:46 < kirka> cheap ones at 1-5 Mhz
11:47 < nmz787> o, OMAPs are generally dual core 1 ARM 1 TI DSP at like almost GHz
11:47 < kirka> They are complex to use and not well suited for real time tasks
11:47 < kirka> MCU fits ideally here
11:47 < nmz787> whats the diff between opamp and darlington?
11:48 < kirka> darlington is just a pair of very similar complementary bipolar transistors
11:48 < kirka> Oh
11:48 < kirka> I made an error
11:49 < kirka> That's two BJTs connected so that they work like one with more gain
11:50 < kirka> I find it very cool: http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Disk_Scanner_Exp.html
11:53 < kirka> Integrator is used for coarse control of tip's Z coordinate
11:55 -!- Mariu [Jimmy98@89.41.57.33] has quit [Quit: downtime]
11:55 < kirka> Input OPAMP has 3 Mhz bandwidth
11:57 < nmz787> what does this mean "Remember the stainless steel disk is the Z electrode."
11:57 < nmz787> http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/disk_scanner.html
11:57 < nmz787> hmm
11:57 < kirka> It's common to all 4 electrodes
11:58 < kirka> It's natural to use it for global Z compensation
11:58 < nmz787> parallax propeller is 8 core at 96MHz for $8
11:58 < nmz787> very easy to use
11:58 < kirka> Yes, but I think attiny2313@20 Mhz will be enough. Or atmega.
11:58 < nmz787> i thought stainless steel bottom is ground
11:59 < kirka> It's not imperative
11:59 < nmz787> hmm?
11:59 < kirka> He is obviously experienced guy
12:00  * kirka reads datasheets for suggested opamps
12:03 < kirka> I think first step should be building pico-ampermeter and trying to measure tunneling current profile
12:03 < nmz787> it doesnt mention tips
12:04 < kirka> http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/STM_Tips.htm
12:04 < kirka> That's it
12:04 < nsh> GEOCITIES YAAAA
12:05 < nsh> what you guys designing btw
12:05 < nsh> ?
12:05 < nsh> oh god the colours
12:05 < kirka> WE are reading about DIY STM
12:05 < kirka> *We
12:05 < nsh> what's the choke point?
12:05 < nsh> that is, most difficult part to achieve DIYily?
12:06 < nmz787> so you clip a groundwire onto the sample?
12:06 < nsh> s/choke point/stumbling block/
12:06  * nsh lrns2english
12:06 < kirka> Eeeh, nanometer precision at actuator, I suppose
12:06 < nmz787> seems like voltage control on the XY and Z
12:06 < kirka> nmz767 Nope, there is Sample bias voltage OPAMP
12:07 < nmz787> so there is a single wire going to the tip
12:07 < kirka> Yes
12:07 < nmz787> how do you get a signal from that?
12:08 < kirka> Tip's current generated voltage on input resistor
12:08 < kirka> U=I*R
12:08 < nsh> i would have thought that vibration control would be pretty hard in a garage context
12:08 < nsh> unless you have a supercooling system to hand
12:08 < kirka> That very little voltage is pre amplified with LF411 opamp
12:09 < nmz787> from wiki "STM can be a challenging technique, as it requires extremely clean and stable surfaces, sharp tips, excellent vibration control, and sophisticated electronics, but nonetheless many hobbyists have built their own"
12:09 < kirka> nsh He does it with foam and concrete blocks: http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/STM_operation.html
12:09 < kirka> Yes it is
12:09 < kirka> Heh
12:10 < nsh> kirka, apparently a mostly-deflated bike innertube can be very effective
12:10 < nmz787> "The STM is based on the concept of quantum tunneling. When a conducting tip is brought very near to the surface to be examined, a bias (voltage difference) applied between the two can allow electrons to tunnel through the vacuum between them. "
12:10 < kirka> nsh Thanks, I'll write that down
12:10 < nmz787> seems like the sample must be in the circuit
12:10 < nsh> but that's in the context of record players in very noisy bass heavy club environs
12:10 < nsh> so it might not translate
12:10 < nsh> but the principle is the same
12:10 < kirka> nmz787 Of course it should
12:10 < nmz787> nsh: i think you do need vibration dampening, but that is routine in optics already
12:11 < nmz787> nsh: its generally a granite slab sitting on air shocks
12:11  * nsh nods
12:11 < nsh> all the the Q
12:11 < nsh> *all about the
12:11 < nmz787> in a granite science bunker deep in old mountains
12:11 < kirka> I'm not in a hurry anyway. Only way I would do such thing and have any chance of success is conducting major research in beaforehand
12:12 < kirka> also reading about commercial STM construction
12:12 < nmz787> deflated bike tube eh
12:12 < nmz787> hmm
12:13 <@kanzure> wtf why is there no cyanogenmod build for android emulator?
12:13 < nmz787> kirka: seems like you could replace his Z allen key screw with a motor
12:13 < nmz787> http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/STM_operation.html
12:14 < kirka> nmz787 Yes, but it has to be very precise motor
12:14 < nmz787> sure
12:15 < nmz787> squiggle would probably work
12:15 < nmz787> dunno what they cost though
12:15 < nmz787> http://www.newscaletech.com/squiggle_overview.html
12:15 < kirka> Thanks
12:15 < kirka> Actually in CD laser heads they use solenoids for precise movements. But EM fields could interfere with STM tip
12:16 -!- highfrog [~swamp@p5B16DA6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Love Everything! Resistance is Futile.]
12:18 < kirka> I could take his tested schematics and connect it to three DACs and one ADC.
12:18 < kirka> 10 khz control loop will be enough
12:18 < kirka> *and of course, MCU
12:19 < kirka> But I have an oscilloscope
12:22 < nmz787> ok
12:23 < kirka> Cool, he is a pro: http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/My_SPM_exp.htm
12:23 < nmz787> what is SPM?
12:23 < kirka> Scanning Probe Microscopy
12:24 < kirka> http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Publications_List.htm
12:25 < kirka> Actually I've read about one guy who wanted to replicate this project: http://www.chemhacker.com/topics/stm/
12:25 < kirka> His project seems abandoned though
12:27 < kirka> Ah, so he was going to sell it
12:29 < kirka> He is just lightheaded about it
12:32 < nmz787> oh ChemHacker is Sacha of Pumping Station: One
12:33 < kirka> >To simplify design I implemented all the host interface glue logic in one MACH210 chip. This DSP is used to run three servo loops that control the micro positioning of the scanning probe. This board acquires the image information in real time, buffers it and down loads it to the host computer. Data acquisition board, this board has four 16 bit ADCs and six 16 bit DACs with a 170KHz maximum sample rate.
12:33 < kirka> That's just what I was talking about
12:34 < kirka> Seems that 16 bits is enough
12:34 < kirka> Oh maybe it's just coarse positioning
12:37 < nmz787> * * 10 bits gives ~17.59 mV/step which is ~2.81 nm /step (at ~0.16 um/volt) that’s so large that the needle will pass into and out of tunneling in only one step.
12:37 < nmz787> * * 16 bits gives ~0.2747 mV/step which is ~43.9 pm/step, small enough that you can control tunneling with more than one step.
12:38 < nmz787> http://www.chemhacker.com/topics/stm/#post-510
12:39 < kirka> Thanks
12:39 < nmz787> you could email him "Sacha De'Angeli" <sachadeangeli@gmail.com>,
12:39 < kirka> That's basic math, I shall rederive it
12:40 < kirka> Thanks, I have saved to my STM.txt file
12:43 < nmz787> ok ttyl
12:43 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-35.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:45 < kirka> bye
12:46 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:47 < kirka> So with 1600 nm range 16 bit DAC gives me 1600/(2^16) = 0.024 nm = 24pm per step
12:47 < kirka> Not bad at all
12:47 < kirka> this can be acheived at 10 volts for that piezo disk
12:52 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:10 <@kanzure> "Stripe is pretty new, they are similar to PayPal."
13:10 <@kanzure> man these guys are dumb :/
13:10 <@kanzure> "BTW authorize.net pays you in a 2-3 days. We use it all the time for our services and our clients."
13:10 <@kanzure> (way to ignore the thing i actually said)
13:11 < kirka> Where is our cryptoanarchy@bitcoin? :)
13:12 <@kanzure> all the cryptoanarchists killed themselves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Len_Sassaman
13:14 < brownies> kanzure: are you still trying to reason with those web developers?
13:14 < brownies> "web" "developers"
13:15 < kirka> Heh, Stephenson predicted goverment bankruptcy because of lack of tax income
13:15 < kirka> But we are far from it
13:15 <@kanzure> http://garyhodgson.com/reprap/2012/09/githubiverse-a-github-pages-template-for-3d-printing-projects/
13:15 <@kanzure> brownies: yes
13:16 <@kanzure> "It sounded like a fun little diversion so I threw together something called githubiverse. It currently consists of a Github Pages template: drop this into the gh-pages branch of any github project, add a little configuration, and your github pages will display the source files, STLs and any images, along with some other information. "
13:16 <@kanzure> http://reprap.development-tracker.info/
13:20 < brownies> github's inability to display images while i'm browsing the repo is really infuriating, actually
13:21 <@kanzure> i thought they said they are doing image rendering now?
13:21 <@kanzure> oh wait that's only for basic image diffs
13:21 <@kanzure> i think they want to avoid being a CDN
13:22 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@203.118.181.245] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:22 < alusion> Do any of ya'll have a recommended vendor for chloline citrate?
13:25 < alusion> Btw if any of ya'll are on a nootropic diet, how has your memory retention been affected since?
13:27 < brownies> hm, i should test such things. how do you measure/benchmark that alusion ?
13:28 -!- wizaqua [~usorid@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:29 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:31 < alusion> I would imagine some sort of memory recall games / cards periodically? That or perhaps recalling information from reading some sort of book. There's plenty of methods but imo I think Flash cards would work best
13:35 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:36 < brownies> i guess i should just find some web-based dual-n-back app and use that
13:39 < alusion> I'm sure the android market has an app for that.
13:39 < kirka> These guys replicated Jogn's STM design. They say that it works but they don't have pictures yet http://www.ilovephysics.com/2007/10/15/building-a-scanning-tunneling-microscope-for-less-than-100/
13:40 < kirka> >however, Donnie left for Old Dominion University via our 3/2 engineering program and I haven’t yet recruited a student to pick up the pieces
13:40 < kirka> Sad
13:41 < kirka> But it looks like it chould work
13:45 < kirka> Another project, with atomic res: http://sxm4.uni-muenster.de/introduction-en.html
13:45 < kirka> Note vibration decoupling system just like nsh said
13:46 < kirka> But they use precision components, of course
13:46 < nsh> :)
13:47 < nsh> precision is not strictly correlated with cost
13:49 < kirka> kanzure That's what you asked, OSS STM
13:49 < kirka> kanzure almost all components are free
13:49 < kirka> oops >We retain the exclusive right to sell construction-kits or fully assembled devices based on our design.
13:50 < Urchin> my uni has an STM project, but it's languishing on a shelf somewhere
13:50 < kirka> Urchin Strange that people aren't interested by such things
13:50 < kirka> *in
13:51 < Urchin> well, I am apparently one of the few, and when I was due to start working on it, I had medical problems and was absent for couple of months
13:52 < Urchin> I might ask to get back
13:52 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:56 < Urchin> solid state physics is not well loved
14:01 -!- Mokbortolan_ [~Nate@c-76-115-136-13.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:15 < kirka> I'm going to sleep
14:15 -!- kirka [~Kirka@95-161-252-108.broadband.spb.TiERA.org] has left ##hplusroadmap []
14:15 -!- CryptoQuick [~Alex@c-174-51-232-237.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has left ##hplusroadmap []
14:18 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:31 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:32 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:50 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -]
15:11 -!- qnm [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
15:12 -!- qnm [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:34 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:43 <@kanzure> spam spam spam http://nanoengineer-1.com/dev1/index.php?Itemid=85option=com_fireboardfunc=showcatGo=Gocatid=10
15:48 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:03 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
16:06 -!- qnm [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has quit [Disconnected by services]
16:06 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:06 -!- qnm [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:07 -!- qnm [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has quit [Disconnected by services]
16:07 -!- quannum [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has joined ##hplusroadmap
16:09 -!- quannum [~qnm@unaffiliated/qnm] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:18 -!- upgrayeddd [u2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xvtfnpyyfmpnhqci] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:19 -!- upgrayeddd [u2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qvouutjdupukinru] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:09 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:13 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:32 -!- wizzorb [~usorid@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:43 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@c-71-236-101-39.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:20 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:36 <@kanzure> beeep
18:37 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:40 < nsh> hey kanzure
18:40 < nsh> what's up?
18:41 <@kanzure> jmil_: i feel so bad. my grandmother emailed me an article about tissue printing, but it was the sucky article and not yours.
18:41 <@kanzure> oh well
18:41 < nsh> heh
18:41 < nsh> pretty cool that your grandmother emails you articles about biotechnology though
18:41 < nsh> that's more impressive than my grandparents
18:42 < nsh> although they have the slight impairment of death
18:42 < nsh> but even before, handling a phone was about the level of technological literacy
18:42 < nsh> or scientific
18:42 <@kanzure> yeah she also sends me these awful articles about singularityu
18:43 <@kanzure> "WHY AREN'T YOU GOING, BRYAN?"
18:43 < nsh> lol
18:43 <@kanzure> "because they are a bunch of fucking posers, maybe?"
18:43 <@kanzure> no phones are still beyond her
18:43 < nsh> sounds sufficient
18:44 <@kanzure> she's the "has a mobile phone, but keeps it turned off" type
18:48 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:06 -!- panax [panax@131.247.116.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:07 -!- panax [~panax@72.187.64.192] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:25 < skorket> evening all
19:26 < strangewarp> heh
19:27 < strangewarp> My mother reads DailyKos a lot, and I guess they had an article on there that said transhumanists are elitists who want to pollute the environment and live atop a pyramid of suffering, because I had to roll back some weird opinions she'd gleaned from it
19:28 < docl> so, dale carrico in other words?
19:29 < strangewarp> probably
19:32 <@kanzure> see, this is why people should stop reading the news
19:39 < strangewarp> I think politics are a mind-destroying weapon
19:39 < joshcryer> I think it's a mixed bag with regards to transhumanists and the environment.
19:40 < joshcryer> But "pyramid of suffering" is a joke.
19:40 < Urchin> getting off this dump of a planet is not a bad idea
19:41 < joshcryer> Converting the planet into a mass driver to go to the core isn't a bad idea. ;)
19:41 < joshcryer> s/core/core of the galaxy
19:41 <@kanzure> occupythemoon
19:41  * joshcryer thumbsup
19:42 < Urchin> O'Neil stations would be my preference
19:42 < joshcryer> So Clang takes far too long to compile.
19:42 < joshcryer> It's been two hours. :O
19:43 < joshcryer> Urchin, I'm thinking hiveminds, bodies are too quaint.
19:44 < Urchin> frak hive minds, just upload yourself
19:46 < joshcryer> Go to Reddit, look at the comments. If you're simulating that it's more efficient if the mind which have similar views are one in the same. You wouldn't notice a difference.
19:48  * nsh tries to parse joshcryer's last
19:48  * yashgaroth too
19:49  * Urchin failed to parse it
19:52 < joshcryer> Most Reddit comments are copy-paste-jobs of someone elses thought. Say you're simulating some minds, if you got redundant thoughts, why compute them uniquely? Basically, "Hey, great minds think alike." Yeah, literally.
19:52 < joshcryer> Sorry I am incoherent. :P
19:58 < strangewarp> Reddit bothers me, because even though its comments converge on common themes, those themes often seem like they aren't objectively the most productive or insightful
19:59 < nsh> lol
19:59 < strangewarp> This is also why democracy so often kind of sucks, I think
19:59 < nsh> people several standard deviations from the mean intelligence disappointed in bulk of distribution. film at eleven
20:00 <@kanzure> nsh: or you're average
20:00 <@kanzure> and just grumpy.
20:02  * nsh smiles
20:02 < nsh> that too
20:03 < nsh> but joshcryer, more speculatively, i wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a some kind of compression of thoughtspace at whatever level you want to call reality
20:03 < nsh> in terms of 'collective unconscious'
20:03 < nsh> (which is vague enough to be mostly useless, yes)
20:04 < strangewarp> meh, even if there isn't, there are only a finite number of possible thoughts anyway
20:21 < nsh> if you make some inprovable assumptions about that fundaments of mathematics
20:21 < nsh> i guess.
20:22 < nsh> *the
20:23 < strangewarp> nah
20:24 <@kanzure> bre is very good at doublespeak
20:24 <@kanzure> http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2012/09/20/fixing-misinformation-with-information/
20:24 <@kanzure> i guess not good enough though
20:25 < strangewarp> nsh: there is a finite but unknown upper bound on the number of possible universes with rational topology; these contain all possible thoughts; thus the number of possible thoughts has an equal or lesser upper bound
20:26 < nsh> strages_home, that sure is a pretty collection of words :)
20:26 < strangewarp> ugh
20:31 <@kanzure> it would be a shame if one of those words was to get hurt
20:32  * kanzure takes a hostage
20:32 < nsh> lol
20:32  * strangewarp grins...
20:33 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
20:40 < nsh> strangewarp, sorry for being glib. brain was too distracted to formulate reply.
20:40 < strangewarp> eh, that's okay, I'm on my way to bed so my arguments are weak anyway
20:40 < nsh> my point was that you can't rule out infinitude without making some strong assumptions
20:40 < nsh> pretty 'early' in your physical theorising
20:41 < nsh> and topology itself is predicated on infinite sets
20:42 < strangewarp> Well, I'm assuming Big Universe here - and technically, under any form of Big Universe, you could say an infinite number of possible universes exist, even those with irraional topology, but their magnitude would be exponentially rarer for every topology-sustaining quantum miracle they require, natch
20:42 < nsh> it's an open question whether mathematical infinity is physically realised or just a very effective simplification
20:42 < strangewarp> irrational*
20:43 < nsh> i don't even know why you're talking about more than one universe
20:44 < nsh> i don't even know what that means...
20:44 < strangewarp> Joke answer: "to be thorough"
20:44 < nsh> veering into theology imho
20:45 < nsh> but restricting ourselves to the incredibly myopic view of one totality of existence
20:45 < nsh> for a moment
20:45 < strangewarp> If cognitive materialism is true, then not theology, else theology
20:45 < nsh> there's still room for physical infinity
20:45 < nsh> potentially
20:45 -!- roksprok [~Zac@ip-64-134-233-79.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
20:45 < nsh> what's cognitive materialism?
20:46 < strangewarp> The person is just the matter that makes up the mind, and if you duplicate the matter, you've meaningfully duplicated the person
20:46 < nsh> you can form some argument based on the maximum information density and minimum energy required to manipulate a qubit
20:47 < nsh> and if you have a four sided triangle you can play lemonade on the violin
20:47 < nsh> you can't duplicate information
20:47 < nsh> no-cloning theorem
20:47  * strangewarp rubs temples
20:48 < strangewarp> So you are calling this "information" thing a qualia, then
20:49 < nsh> not unless i didn't wipe my shoes thoroughly enough on the way in
20:49 <@kanzure> i saw a panasonic laptop once with a keyboard that looked like the original lenovo thinkpads. anyone know what it is?
20:49 <@kanzure> you know, since lenovo has grown evil
20:49 < nsh> how long ago was once kanzure?
20:49 <@kanzure> less than a decade?
20:49 <@kanzure> i am bad at time
20:50 < nsh> did it look like this: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2393939,00.asp
20:50 < roksprok> kanzure: any idea how makerbot can have 150 employees? Is that normal for hardware?
20:50 < roksprok> also i thought panasonic only made rugged laptops
20:51 <@kanzure> roksprok: support peeps, a handful of web peeps, software/firmware peeps, some people to tinker with hardware
20:51 < nsh> strangewarp, gonna have to duck out of philosophy. interesting though
20:51 <@kanzure> some people to do sourcing, accounting, hr, probably some people doing assembly/packaging/testing
20:51 <@kanzure> and probably some people doing shipping
20:52 <@kanzure> they might mean 150 except.. 100 of them are some $1/hour chinese folks putting stuff into boxes
20:52 < roksprok> it would have to be, cuz that's 10 catagories, are there really 15 people doing each of those?
20:53 < roksprok> i wonder what their breakeven number of printers to sell is, or if they're hoping people will buy a shitton of plastic
20:53 <@kanzure> you should also look at the number of makerbots they have sold
20:53 <@kanzure> they have that on a wiki page somewhere
20:53 <@kanzure> a friend of mine got #7
20:53 <@kanzure> but they are up to #4000something
20:55 < roksprok> that's....more than i expected.  i suppose that means its not just hobbyists? if so thats cool, i discounted them wrongfully
20:57 <@kanzure> huh? i'm sure there's at least 4000 hobbyists that can afford makerbots
20:58 < roksprok> ooooo...i thought #7 was 7 units
20:58 < roksprok> i fail
21:23 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: audy, nsh, ParahSailin
21:25 -!- Netsplit over, joins: audy
21:28 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:28 -!- ParahSailin [~parah@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:31 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap
21:46 <@kanzure> "BGI-Shenzhen Acquires Complete Genomics"
21:47 < yashgaroth> yep
21:47 <@kanzure> ". Following the acquisition, which will cost BGI a grand total of $117.6 million, Complete Genomics will keep operations in Mountain View and continue to operate as an independent company."
21:48 <@kanzure> hrm $120M for a sequencing company?
21:48 <@kanzure> i mean, there's a lot of these companies these days
21:48 <@kanzure> all of them are venture backed; it's at least $5B of VC money.
21:48 < yashgaroth> B with a b?
21:49 < yashgaroth> you mean all sequencing companies combined?
21:49 <@kanzure> yeah
21:49 <@kanzure> i mean, if BGI needs more capacity, they could just buy some cheaper sequencing company
21:50 <@kanzure> like knome
21:50 < yashgaroth> maybe china was unable to steal their data and just bought them instead
21:50 <@kanzure> although, knome probably outsources their sequencing to BGI anyway
22:00 < brownies> well how much did complete genomics raise?
22:00 <@kanzure> i guess we can assume their investors were holding out for 10x returns, so probably $10-$20M?
22:01 <@kanzure> google says they raised $45M in series D
22:01 <@kanzure> and $74M in an IPO
22:01 < brownies> eh? were they public?
22:01 <@kanzure> ah $91M in VC funding total
22:02 < brownies> yeah, GNOM on the NASDAQ. wild.
22:02 <@kanzure> damn i wish i was cool enough to get a stock symbol like GNOM
22:03 < brownies> all the cool ones are taken.
22:18 < nsh> "you can still get one from an obscure country"
22:21 -!- roksprok [~Zac@ip-64-134-233-79.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: roksprok]
22:22 < brownies> heh
22:39 -!- jmil_ is now known as jmil
22:39 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:43 -!- tashoutang [~tata@pc131090206.ntunhs.edu.tw] has joined ##hplusroadmap
22:50 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: what's a good reference that refutes calories-in/calories-out? preferably some paper
22:56 < nsh> what?
22:57 < nsh> you can't refute thermodynamics
22:58 < nsh> i'm sure there are papers on differential metabolic response to dietary variation and things like altered satiation/starvation measures
22:58 < nsh> but calories in still equals calories out
23:12 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:21 <@kanzure> nsh: /win 5
23:21 <@kanzure> jkdslfcjlasedj
23:31 < brownies> stop trying to break thermodynamics kanzure
23:38 -!- roksprok [~Zac@adsl-75-36-187-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:40 -!- tashoutang [~tata@pc131090206.ntunhs.edu.tw] has quit []
23:42 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@203.118.181.245] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:49 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@pool-108-39-145-80.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:51 < nmz787> so how can i screw with a scammer?
23:54 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.11.109] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:54 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.11.109] has quit [Changing host]
23:54 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:54 <@kanzure> to screw with a scammer you must become the scammer
23:55 < nmz787> hmm
23:55 < nmz787> how can i get them to send me money then?
23:55 < nmz787> i know at least one, maybe 2 phone numbers, and an email
23:55 < nmz787> and they called me once asking for a deposit on a house
23:55 <@kanzure> first you study the masters who have come before you
23:55 < nmz787> from some foreign number
23:55 <@kanzure> check out that one guy who had the nigerian scammer make him a bust and mail it
23:57 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap
--- Log closed Fri Sep 21 00:00:32 2012