--- Log opened Mon Oct 01 00:00:42 2012
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06:13 < skorket> I'm not affiliated with Cornell
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07:51 <@kanzure> this it kakarot
07:51 <@kanzure> is it
07:51 <@kanzure> saiyan failure
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08:44 <@kanzure> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiaWH3PL_9CndG1GbmtSZ1I3aGdkQkE4YVhwZ3o5c1E#gid=0
08:44 <@kanzure> openpcr bom
08:51 <@kanzure> why isn't there a way to visually diagnose whether or not a chute will deploy?
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09:00 < jrayhawk> explosives are kinda finnicky
09:01 < jrayhawk> this is especially true for hobbiests who tend to let volatile self-oxidating compounds sit around for a while
09:01 <@kanzure> well, for starters, i always see parachutes are in dark packages that you can't see into
09:02 < chris_99> what kind of parachute do you mean, one that you jump out a plane in?
09:02 <@kanzure> yes
09:02 < jrayhawk> oh, nevermind
09:02 <@kanzure> haha yeah i was wondering about that.. "what? are we packing parachutes with explosives now? neat."
09:03 < chris_99> hehe
09:03 < jrayhawk> that's how it's done for most applications
09:03 < chris_99> im not sure even if it was packed in a transparent bag, if you'd be able to tell it was packed right?
09:03 <@kanzure> i'm not sure packing errors are the only source of problems
09:04 <@kanzure> you could possibly use markers on the material to tell if it was packed/folded correctly
09:04 <@kanzure> but realistically if you actually need to use a parachute in an emergency, you don't have time to re-pack anyway. but you might have time to get another one.
09:04 < chris_99> yeah that sounds like a sensible idea
09:05 <@kanzure> and, if these chutes are failing because of manufacturing error, that sounds important too
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09:06 <@kanzure> what's the failure rate anyway? 1 in 10,000?
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09:09 <@kanzure> "Exact numbers are difficult to estimate, but approximately one in a thousand sports main parachute openings malfunction, and must be cut away,"
09:09 <@kanzure> 1/1000? wtf? that's a terrible failure rate.
09:10 <@kanzure> "In the U.S., the average fatality rate is considered to be about 1 in 80,000 jumps"
09:10 <@kanzure> whaat.
09:11 < chris_99> very odd, i guess that means the team mates must save you a lot?
09:13 <@kanzure> well, i guess this isn't the same as a "bad" chute being packed by a manufacturer - maybe those error rates are a little better, hopefully by a few orders of magnitude.
09:16 <@kanzure> "German parachutes of 1918 exhibited a failure rate around 50% when used under combat conditions." wtf?
09:18 < chris_99> does that failure rate include getting shot down
09:19 < Mariu> lol
09:23 <@kanzure> "the reliability of the system can be assumed constrained by the reliability of the reserve chute" what? no..
09:23 <@kanzure> http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/787299.pdf
09:24 <@kanzure> "With 2,040,000 recorded jumps and no reported failures, the reliability must, therefore, be assumed one."
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11:43 <@kanzure> "Delta Airlines has purchased their own oil refinery to get out from under the thumb of speculators like GS and have more control over their own fuel prices."
11:43 <@kanzure> http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/04/12/delta-oil-refinery/
11:47 <@kanzure> http://slashdot.org/~SteveWoz
11:52 <@kanzure> "I was a singlularity denier, for one thing. But I have to reverse myself and admit that I'm wrong. Oddly, it was Ray, presenting to an audience in Vienna, which convinced me otherwise."
12:01 <@kanzure> chemical supplier search app thing http://mobilereagents.com/
12:01 <@kanzure> http://mobilereagents.com/getStats.html
12:01 <@kanzure> http://amazon-more64.eidogen-sertanty.com/MORESearchWithGet.php?stype=sss&sfield=smi&sinfo=CC1=C(C(C)=NO1)C1=CC=CC=C1
12:01 <@kanzure> damn their interface sucks
12:01 <@kanzure> http://amazon-more64.eidogen-sertanty.com/molDescripsView.php?cd_id=808978
12:01 <@kanzure> why do they have a QR code on a web page ?
12:02 <@kanzure> damn. no one-click ordering either.
12:02 <@kanzure> how am i supposed to get my 5-methoxy-2-[4-phenyl-3-(trifluoromethyl)-1,2-oxazol-5-yl]phenol
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14:17 <@kanzure> haha
14:17 <@kanzure> "DIY Gun Project Put On Hold As Creators Have Their 3D Printer Seized"
14:17 <@kanzure> http://www.webpronews.com/diy-gun-project-put-on-hold-as-creators-have-their-3d-printer-seized-2012-10
14:18 <@kanzure> oh, nevermind. just linkbait. i am so disappointed.
14:18 <@kanzure> "Wired reports that Stratasys apparently didn’t like what the guys at Defense Distributed were doing with their printer. Once they caught wind of the Wiki Weapon project, they immediately canceled the lease and reclaimed the printer."
14:18 <@kanzure> yeah, well, that's what you get for using stratasys
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15:06 < chris_99> heh, that was such a pointless idea i thought
15:06 < chris_99> making guns with 3d printers
15:34 < jrayhawk> huh, that's a good idea. i could use a vertical foregrip.
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15:35 < jrayhawk> my guns are, by volume, largely plastic
15:35 < chris_99> what kind of guns?
15:36 < jrayhawk> http://www.fivesevenammo.com/shop/media/FS2000TacticalBlack copy.jpg
15:37 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steyr_M-A1_M40-A1_mit_1_Magazin_und_Blockierschl%C3%BCssel.jpg
15:37 < chris_99> i don't know anything about guns mind, that looks really weird looking heh
15:37 < jrayhawk> It's a fairly exotic architecture.
15:38 < chris_99> what kind of gun is it, automatic?
15:38 < jrayhawk> It's a semi-auto. Bullpup with front brass ejection, which I believe only one other company makes.
15:39 < jrayhawk> specifically, the Kel-Tec RFB, which is the .308 competition to the FS2000's .223
15:41 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Walther_P22_Corrected.jpg oh yeah, i guess this is mostly plastic, too
15:41 < jrayhawk> i apparently really like plastic-frame guns
15:43 < jrayhawk> http://gunblast.com/images/KelTec-RFB/DSC09886.JPG the bullpup is a pretty cool design for efficiency; these two guns have the same barrel length
15:44 < jrayhawk> http://www.gunblast.com/images/FS2000/DSC04724.jpg same here
15:45 < chris_99> isn't plastic er dangerous though
15:46 < chris_99> in that it could just melt
15:47 < jrayhawk> Would depend on the plastic.
15:47 < jrayhawk> ABS, which I think is what most people use for extrusions, I wouldn't trust anywhere near the barrel, but elsewhere would do okay.
15:48 < jrayhawk> 3D printer-style extrusions
15:48 <@kanzure> according to bre pettis, thingiverse is built on wordpress
15:52 <@kanzure> bre pettis is also an idiot so who knows
15:53 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: can you go stalk down justin dormandy in portland and see what he's up to?
15:54 < jrayhawk> that sounds like effort
15:54 <@kanzure> ok well if you run into him, tell him that the internet is looking for him
15:56 < jrayhawk> according to glock, fiberglass-reinforced nylon66 is good, which, according to dupont, has a melting point around 500F
15:58 < jrayhawk> i think glocks usually have floating barrels constrained by metal guides, so i guess the plastic bits avoids direct thermal coupling
16:01 < chris_99> i think what that 3d printer person was trying to make was make single use guns
16:04 <@kanzure> "you only need one shot" hah
16:04 <@kanzure> "you only live long enuogh to make one shot"
16:05 < chris_99> hehe
16:05 < jrayhawk> actually adrenaline can keep you operating fairly normally even with a lot of bullet holes in you for several minutes
16:06 < jrayhawk> one shot is thus only enough if you aren't in a hurry
16:07 < jrayhawk> or if you manage to hit a major nervous or vascular pathway
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16:18 < jrayhawk> huh, yeah, 'no moving parts' suggests single fire
16:20 < jrayhawk> i am not real clear on how they intend to electrically trigger a rimfire .22
16:24 < chris_99> could they use a mini explosive
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16:38 < jrayhawk> then they have lost the reason for using standard ammunition
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17:06 <@kanzure> Juul: have you implemented key signing of biobricks in biofab yet?
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17:14 < ParahSailin_> just gonna throw it out there-- "gun" is not one of the things one should be trying to 3d print in plastic
17:20 < Mariu> :p
17:21 < Mariu> water guns
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17:30 < yashgaroth> jrayhawk you have an fs2000? that's some classy shit
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17:58 < eudoxia> hello friends
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18:23 <@kanzure> Bioguy: hi
18:23 < Bioguy> Hey!
18:23 < Bioguy> So... have we met before?
18:23 <@kanzure> Bioguy: do you go to PSAS?
18:23 <@kanzure> no
18:24 <@kanzure> we have a few portland people in here, i just thought you should probably know them
18:24 <@kanzure> like Mokstar or jrayhawk or lichen
18:25 <@kanzure> and soon nmz787 will be moving in.. he'll probably want to setup some biohacking thing somewhere.
18:25 < Bioguy> Bryan Bishop...that sounds familiar - did you post on the google DIYbio group?
18:26 <@kanzure> according to google, i am the person who sends the most email to diybio, yes :\
18:28 -!- Bioguy is now known as BioGuy
18:29 < BioGuy> So...ok you figured I was in Portland from my ip address, my /whois has my first name...how did you figure my last name and gmail?
18:30  * BioGuy scrathing head
18:30 <@kanzure> you're the only google result for justin, diybio, hackerspace and portland
18:31 <@kanzure> plus, you show up in my email inbox
18:31 < BioGuy> Oh! Did my post show up on the google groups?
18:31 <@kanzure> yes
18:34 < BioGuy> Oh... where is it? I replied to 'Current examples of DIYbio that I see...' but it didn't look my post actually went through thought I was having browser issues.
18:35 <@kanzure> browser issues?
18:35 <@kanzure> it's email
18:36 < BioGuy> I think its both...appears as a forum if you go to groups.google.com
18:37 < BioGuy> ...anywho - whats with the channel name?
18:38 < yashgaroth> this isn't solely a diybio channel
18:38 <@kanzure> originates from a technology roadmap for open source hardware for genetic engineering, brain implants, things like that
18:38 < brownies> ##diybiopunkhackingninjas was taken
18:38 < BioGuy> OH! I take it the 'h' is for human?
18:39 <@kanzure> more or less yeah
18:39 < BioGuy> brownies: nice!
18:39 < BioGuy> So what is PSAS?
18:40 <@kanzure> portland state aerospace society. they do lots of open source rocket things.
18:41 < BioGuy> So are you in Portland?
18:42 <@kanzure> no. i listed some people in here who are, though. see above..
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18:45 < BioGuy> I should try an meet them. You know when they're usually around?
18:45 <@kanzure> Mokstar: do things!
18:45 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: your presence has been summoned
18:46 < BioGuy> So just to double check the message you got on the google mailing list was my rant about reagents not being accessible right?
18:47 <@kanzure> yes
18:47 <@kanzure> if you have any project plans to do cheap protein production, run them by us
18:47 <@kanzure> and we can dump cash
18:53 < jrayhawk> ugh here you are wanting me to actually do thing again
18:53 < jrayhawk> s/thing/things
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18:55 < jrayhawk> Hi Justin; I like better living through biochemistry, but I am not much of one for diybio type stuff.
18:55 < jrayhawk> I can take you out bouldering sometime, though.
18:57 < BioGuy> Hey you ever go to the bouldering gym on Macadam
18:58 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
18:59 < BioGuy> Ya! I want to go back there!
19:00 < jrayhawk> I'm available for that tomorrow or Sunday; I'd prefer to start 16:00 or earlier and can probably come kidnap you from wherever.
19:01 < BioGuy> So all the people here in pdx, what are yours and their background
19:02 < BioGuy> BAH! let me rephrase that, jrayhawk, whats your background and the other guys?
19:02 < BioGuy> Kanure: thanks for rescuing me from that very empty room :-)
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19:05 < jrayhawk> Professionally, I do Linux system/network administration and internet hosting and Mokstar does Windows system administration. I'm also roped into talking to and helping out rationalist/futurist communities for some reason.
19:06 < BioGuy> rationalist/futurist communities?
19:09 < jrayhawk> ##hplusroadmap, in particular, is about practical transhumanism
19:11 < BioGuy> Not really too familiar with the term
19:11 < BioGuy> I'm assuming technologically advancing beyond our own biology essentially?
19:15 < jrayhawk> or biologically advancing
19:16 < BioGuy> so how is your biochemistry knowledge?
19:17 < jrayhawk> I have a minimal practical set for manipulating my endocrinology
19:17 <@kanzure> jrayhawk is not representative :P
19:18 <@kanzure> when nmz787 roles into town, portland will gain a molecular biology guy
19:18 < BioGuy> manipulating your endocrinology? Can you elaborate?
19:19 < jrayhawk> mok and bkero have interesting hardware projects from time to time
19:19 <@kanzure> i think he means that he likes to eat
19:20 < BioGuy> I just completed an associates degree in bisocience technology. Mostly it focused on bacterial transformations, genetic engineering, cell and tissue culture, some basic molecular bio, immunochemistry (western blots, elisa assays, etc), protein analysis and purification
19:20 <@kanzure> oh good
19:21 <@kanzure> what are you doing now?
19:22  * bkero hsa hardware
19:22 < bkero> What're you interested in?
19:23 < jrayhawk> it is true, i do like to eat
19:23 < BioGuy> Not sure exactly where you guys are relative to me so if you have any questions definitely feel free to ask. But, I was curious why TAE and TBE is always used as the running buffer for DNA gel electrophoresis. It turns out there isn't any good reason. So I'm working on comparing TAE/TBE to TA/TB and sodium boric acid/lithium boric acid. I think with the lithium boric acid I might be able to do some
19:23 < BioGuy> very small scale sequencing on an agarose gel instead of having to use polyacrylamide.
19:24 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: ping
19:24 < yashgaroth> uhh I'd imagine you add the E to block nucleases
19:25 < yashgaroth> I suppose it doesn't matter if you run it immediately and don't need to do anything but visualize the bands, but EDTA isn't expensive
19:26 < BioGuy> It makes sense to have the EDTA in the loading buffer, but not the running buffer. It ends up just adding an extra ion that doesn't need to be there and makes the gel run more prone to heading up and generating increasing amounts of current at a constant voltage.
19:28 < BioGuy> Maybe not expensive...but unnecessary. from some of the research I've done it looks like there's no qualitative difference between TAE/TBE/TA/TB - but I want to see what the current, ph, and heat changes are during a run
19:28 < yashgaroth> if you need a super-fast gel it might be worthwhile
19:29 < BioGuy> The nice thing about lithium boric acid and sodium boric acid it has a very minimal heat feedback loop compared to TAE/TBE - so you wont melt your gels
19:30 < BioGuy> What I really want to see though is if I can get 1 base pair resolution on a simple agarose gel, which from some of the reading I've done it looks like you can without melting the gel.
19:30 < yashgaroth> but if I can run my gels faster, I won't be able to dick around on the internet while claiming that I'm working
19:31 < yashgaroth> sure you can if you use a super high concentration of agarose
19:31 < BioGuy> LOL!!
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19:32 < yashgaroth> I must admit I haven't thought about the subject much since I have a 50x TAE stock in the lab and don't have to pay for it
19:32 < BioGuy> Thats interesting...I should add that to the list and see what happens if you just increase the agarose concentration and stuck with TBE/TAE
19:33 < yashgaroth> I'm sure you can throw in some wacky chemical to increase the resolution
19:33 < BioGuy> I'm thinking more along the lines of IF this could work people might have a cheap way of testing for specific SNPs on their own.
19:34 < yashgaroth> ah wait they use acrylamide for sequencing gels, nm
19:34 < BioGuy> exactly!
19:34 <@kanzure> why not aptamers or antibody reporters for checking snps?
19:35 < cpopell> sup folks
19:35 < BioGuy> But imagine if you could do it simply with agarose - it would be cheaper and you wouldn't have to concern yourself at all with the carcinogenicity of polyacrylamide
19:35 < yashgaroth> hey, only monoacrylamide is toxic...but yeah
19:36 < BioGuy> Lol ok fine, its been a while...what is it? Bis-acrylamide? I forget which is the toxic one
19:37 < yashgaroth> idk man, all I know is don't make the gels yourself if you're like me and enjoy pouring aerosolizable powders rather than scooping
19:37 < BioGuy> kanure - never heard of aptamers. By antibody reporters do yo mean something like an antibody with a fluorophore or HRP conjugated?
19:38 <@kanzure> aptamers are just loops of dna that very strongly hybridize to things - but they take a shitload of iterations to get the aptamers just right
19:38 <@kanzure> and yes i mean antibodies with a flurophore (or something)
19:38 < BioGuy> yashgaroth: whats your background?
19:38 < yashgaroth> antibodies suck at binding to DNA
19:38 <@kanzure> aptamers are pretty good at it though
19:38 < yashgaroth> I've a BS in molbio, been working in industry for 3 years now
19:38 <@kanzure> eh whatever, gels are worth it anyway
19:39 < cpopell> t-minus 14 days until I hear back from DARPA :D
19:39 < yashgaroth> I guess you could try some variant of a southern blot
19:40 < BioGuy> I'll have to check out more about aptamers... when you say iterations are you referring to PCR?
19:41 <@kanzure> it's an iterative process of getting lots of possible aptamers, binding them to your target (if they do at all), then picking the aptamers that work best and using that to inform your next generation
19:43 < BioGuy> hrmm...reminds me a bit of a genetic algorithm, except your evolving something that matches your DNA strand of interest.
19:44 < yashgaroth> that's only really necessary for binding to non-DNA things...DNA binds to itself pretty predictably already
19:45 <@kanzure> yeah what's wrong with a hybridization microarray or something
19:45 <@kanzure> am i making things up again?
19:46 < yashgaroth> microarrays ain't DIY
19:46 <@kanzure> taking pics of microarrays is diy :P
19:46 <@kanzure> but ok i agree
19:47 < yashgaroth> like, I would've said 'just send off the PCR reaction to a commercial sequencing company for $3', but DIY etc
19:48 <@kanzure> that's what mac cowell's company "snparty" or "genelaser" was doing
19:48 <@kanzure> until he realized nobody cared
19:54 < BioGuy> Ok I think I get what an aptamer is, but how would that be useful in identifying what a specific SNP of a gene was?
19:55 < BioGuy> cpopell: Whats the deal with DARPA?
19:55 < yashgaroth> theoretically if you conjugate it to a dye or fluorophore, you can wash it over your DNA sample and it'll stick if you have the SNP of interest
19:55 < cpopell> BioGuy: I started a consulting firm to formalize some side forecasting/analysis work I do, and my friend and I had an idea and asked darpa to give us some cash :P
19:55 < cpopell> not bio related
19:55 < BioGuy> nice!
19:56 < cpopell> I mean, even if we don't get it it gave us some experience
19:56 <@kanzure> by "forecasting/analysis work" he means he uses a giant spreadsheet because he hates technology -_-
19:56 < BioGuy> hehe
19:56 < cpopell> kanzure: I do have a client or two actually :P
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19:56 < cpopell> one of them even pays me
19:57 < cpopell> ...not much, but it's only a couple hours at a time
19:57 < BioGuy> yashgaroth: So...I'm assuming in your aptamer you would have the sequence flanking your snp?
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19:58 < yashgaroth> mhm
19:58 <@kanzure> BioGuy: he was right though, it's easier to just do dna hybridization assays in this case
20:00 < BioGuy> Be back in a few, going to grab something to eat. You lot think you'll be around in an hour?
20:00 < yashgaroth> cha bro, you know it
20:00 <@kanzure> we are 24/7
20:00 <@kanzure> sleep is for the weak
20:01 < BioGuy> lol be back in a bit, this is good talking!
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20:48 < skorket> evening all
21:28 < Mariu> hey
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22:29 <@kanzure> "And my standard example of an inefficiency of the current situation is that there is good evidence that hookworm is an effective treatment for Crohn's disease, but since hookworm is not patentable, there is no prospect that this treatment will ever get evaluated."
22:29 <@kanzure> what? why doesn't someone just use hookworms then?
22:35 < brownies> where is the evidence?
22:35 < brownies> why doesn't someone open Hookworms 'R' Us?
22:35 <@kanzure> yeah my thought too
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23:13 <@kanzure> nmz787: hi
23:13 <@kanzure> actually, wait, no i'm asleep i think
23:16 < nmz787> hi
23:16 < nmz787> oh
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--- Log closed Tue Oct 02 00:00:43 2012