--- Log opened Fri Nov 09 00:00:05 2012
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09:57 < nmz787> holy crap kanzure's nick isn't signed in
09:57 < nmz787> wow
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11:06 < nmz787> http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/specifications/engine/
11:06 < nmz787> 188 combinerd hp
11:06 < nmz787> combined*
11:08 < nmz787> hmm starting at $25k is a little high
11:08 < nmz787> a 2 or 3 year old prius is around $10k
11:08 < nmz787> (sorry clicked an ad for this car)
11:12 < jrayhawk> miniminivan
11:12 < fenn> atkinson cycle with CVT? that's unusual
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11:15 < fenn> sort of the opposite of a supercharger
11:16 < jrayhawk> you can add a supercharger to it and it becomes a miller cycle
11:17 < fenn> this is quite similar to an engine i "designed" a few years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WikiDartEngine.gif
11:17 < fenn> i wasn't sure it would actually work, otherwise why arent more engines built this way
11:20 < jrayhawk> safety, longevity, and fuel efficiency research are really expensive and the auto industry is tragicly conservative
11:21 < fenn> sure but what about lawnmowers, generators, etc
11:21 < jrayhawk> Commodities; no money for research.
11:22 < fenn> i hate this world
11:22 < fenn> i'm leaving :P
11:23 < fenn> nice overview of the engine here: http://white-smoke.wetpaint.com/page/Rotary+Engine
11:23 < jrayhawk> The leading rotor would be hard to seal and hard to keep clean enough to keep from jamming.
11:24 < jrayhawk> No equivalent to and oil ring or a compression ring.
11:26 < jrayhawk> I guess the leading and trailing edges just have to act like apex seals.
11:26 < jrayhawk> Tragicly frequent replacement.
11:27 < jrayhawk> http://ih3.redbubble.net/image.10534006.8846/sticker,375x360.png
11:29 < fenn> there's no line contact though, it's the entire surface of the cylinder that seals
11:29 < jrayhawk> Yeah, and that's a lot of drag.
11:30 < fenn> well, pick your battle
11:30 < fenn> it's not much more area than a cylinder
11:30 < fenn> er, the usual cylinder arrangement i mean
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11:32 < fenn> i think i'd like to make a really small one to run on ether and vegetable oil
11:33 < fenn> or maybe just butane
11:33 < jrayhawk> FWIW the reason the Renesis exists despite having terrible mileage and reliability is that there's a tax on engine displacement in Japan that rewards concurrent-cycle engines. So, maybe you should move to Japan to get engine research funded.
11:33 < jrayhawk> Or, I guess pipeline-cycle engines
11:34 < fenn> meh, internal combustion is really not that interesting anymore
11:34 < fenn> after i learned about thermophotovoltaics and thermoacoustics, i was like, why do we have moving parts again?
11:35 < jrayhawk> 11:30 < fenn> it's not much more area than a cylinder
11:35 < jrayhawk> That's not relevant; cylinders have tiny sealing areas.
11:36 < fenn> i guess i dont understand the difference
11:36 < jrayhawk> Look up 'compression ring' and 'oil ring'
11:36 < fenn> if there's too much area, reduce the area. what do rings have to do with it?
11:36 < jrayhawk> Yeah, that's why I was saying that the leading and trailing edge need to be the equivalent of apex seals.
11:37 < fenn> more area = more drag, longer life
11:37 < fenn> presumably there's a point of diminishing returns, and you build it somewhere around there
11:37 < jrayhawk> Not when dirty combustion chambers are involved!
11:38 < jrayhawk> And rotary designs are appallingly dirty.
11:38 < fenn> because of the corners?
11:39 < fenn> there was some other design with a toroidal compression volume, it looked difficult to make
11:39 < jrayhawk> Yeah. I guess I haven't seen direct injection done on rotaries; maybe it would help.
11:39 < jrayhawk> Well, the corners and probably the high degree of oil usage.
11:40 < fenn> is there a good reason why not to have separate compression and expansion cylinders, with an intermedia combustion chamber and valves?
11:41 < fenn> intermediate
11:42 < jrayhawk> I've seen similar designs; I wonder if I can find them...
11:42 < fenn> i figure it's just more compact to re-use the cylinder
11:42 < jrayhawk> there was one wacky company that was doing a compression cylinder -> expansion cylinder -> water injection heat scavanging cylinder
11:43 < fenn> yeah that's pretty reasonable thing to do if you're after efficiency at all costs
11:43 < jrayhawk> I think turbos are more fun for heat scavanging...
11:44 < fenn> was reading about "lightsail energy" the other day, they do something like that for compressed air energy storage
11:44 < fenn> awful name for a compressed air company but whatever
11:44 < jrayhawk> though i guess I'm a little too car-oriented
11:45 < fenn> imho prime movers should be matched to the average power, and fluctuations dealt with by storing energy
11:46 < fenn> lightsail was originally going to do cars, but the politics forced them into the utility grid market (imagine that, utility companies are less conservative than car companies)
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11:48 < fenn> some day we'll have underground parabolic vacuum tubes and just catapult ourselves point to point
11:48 < ParahSail1n> moving parts have power density
11:48 < fenn> hm?
11:48 < fenn> flywheels?
11:48 < ParahSail1n> "why do we have moving parts again?"
11:48 < fenn> power density per what
11:49 < fenn> engines are big heavy things
11:49 < ParahSail1n> volume, mass
11:54 < ThomasEgi> fenn, befor someone spends the money for vaccum tube transportation. my guess would be they hop the ground-effect-vehicle way.
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11:55 < ThomasEgi> it provides a great tradeoff and comes with a lot less upfront costs
11:55 < fenn> http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/tpv_paper.html the "viking 29" 10kW generator is 432mm*864mm*696mm for a power density of 0.03kW/l and
11:55 < fenn> i can't find any specs on how much it weighs, but it's basically sheet metal and layers of silicon
11:57 < fenn> ThomasEgi: evacuated zero-G transport (well, 1G inverse) is the fastest way to get between to points on a planet short of teleportation
11:57 < ThomasEgi> but by far not the cheapest
11:57 < ThomasEgi> and.. whatever you transport.. someone has to pay the bill
11:58 < fenn> the cheapest is sitting still
11:58 < fenn> what do you mean "the bill"
11:58 < ThomasEgi> the money it costs to build and operate a mean of transportation
11:58 < fenn> how much does it cost to run an autonomous robot?
11:58 < ThomasEgi> the money to build and maintain it.
11:59 < fenn> ok whatever i'm not doing this argument again
12:01 < ThomasEgi> i'd love to build my own ground effect vehicle tho.
12:01 < fenn> you mean like those weird russian sea planes? or just a hovercraft
12:02 < ThomasEgi> exactly those weird russian sea planes
12:02 < ThomasEgi> they do work very well over ground too.
12:02 < ThomasEgi> the low altitude increads gliding capability and reduces drag a lot.
12:03 < ThomasEgi> and unlike hovercrafts. you can make big leaps with them.
12:04 < fenn> i swear this is straight out of star wars http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Q-PuSGjFHvY/SJqUUMyFEHI/AAAAAAAABOs/3iWR1huuCPo/s640/dimage.jpg
12:05 < fenn> oh it's missing the wings
12:05 < fenn> still i'm a fan of any lifting body concept
12:05 < ThomasEgi> had a slightly smaller unit in mind
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12:06 < ThomasEgi> fenn, i don't think it has any wings bigger than what you see on the picture
12:07 < ThomasEgi> if any. just for steering or so
12:07 < ThomasEgi> had something like that in mind http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/McGrawHill/Encyclopedia/images/CE017110FG0020.gif
12:08 < fenn> cute
12:09 < ThomasEgi> for like.. 2 person. or 3 and a bit of luggage
12:09 < ThomasEgi> to get you around.
12:09 < ThomasEgi> great thing bout them. they'r fast, economic and very comfy to ride.
12:09 < fenn> what keeps you from running into trees or power lines
12:10 < fenn> actually, how fast does it need to go to fly?
12:12 < ThomasEgi> it doesnt really fly
12:12 < ThomasEgi> it remains just above the ground
12:12 < ThomasEgi> depending on your speed an size of the craft this can be really low. the lower, the more efficient
12:12 < ThomasEgi> so over flat terrain you may "fly" at an altitude of just 1m
12:12 < ThomasEgi> or.. even less
12:13 < ThomasEgi> if you dare
12:14 < ThomasEgi> as for speeds. depends on how you design it. the more wingspan and area , the slower you'll get up.
12:14 < ThomasEgi> but the more limited your top speed.
12:14 < fenn> are there ultralight versions made out of sail cloth?
12:14 < ThomasEgi> i think so
12:14 < ThomasEgi> some people folled around with those. not too many tho
12:14 < fenn> i always wanted a flying bicycle
12:15 < fenn> maybe it's possible if you only fly 1 meter high
12:17 < ThomasEgi> 1 meter is already for rather high speeds.
12:17 < ThomasEgi> if you go bicycle speed.. you probably want to fly at ways lower altitude
12:17 < ThomasEgi> dunno.. maybe.. 20cm or so?
12:17 < fenn> great way to get killed: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread714529/pg1
12:18 < ThomasEgi> hehe. that's quite a bit different^^
12:19 < ThomasEgi> guess you could try to snap on some wings to your bicycle made from styrofoam or so
12:19 < ThomasEgi> havent tried myself. but then. for such low speeds , rolling is probably still more efficient than hovering
12:19 < ThomasEgi> would be one cool experiment tho.
12:19 < ThomasEgi> should eat a lot les power than human powered free flight
12:31 < ThomasEgi> like.. http://lonniemorse.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/apex8.jpg thin thing with ground effect wings... i'd testride it.
12:33 < fenn> you sir have a good sense of taste
12:36 < fenn> "They also banned the recumbent bicycle in 1934 because of  winning most races."
12:36 < fenn> just like F1 and turbine engines
12:36 < fenn> why are people addicted to tradition
12:36 < ThomasEgi> well banning them from races makes sense.
12:36 < ThomasEgi> to keep up an actual competition
12:37 < ThomasEgi> but.. it's totaly strange they arent more popular on the road
12:37 < ThomasEgi> sure in a city they are not the no1 choice.
12:37 < ThomasEgi> but for bicycle-travels they have undenyable benefits
12:37 < fenn> i've never ridden one
12:37 < ThomasEgi> i build one myself from wood :D
12:37 < ThomasEgi> and.. even that one was awesome
12:38 < ThomasEgi> i have a real one on my "to build" list
12:38 < ThomasEgi> rode a simmilar vehicle tho. for 2 people.
12:38 < ThomasEgi> http://twike.com/
12:39 < bkero> what an awful thing
12:39 < ThomasEgi> that position , i mean you have an actual seat you can press yourself into when hitting the pedals. that's a great thing
12:39 < ThomasEgi> you can travel for ages and you butt will never start to hurt a bit
12:39 < fenn> too bad PVC has such low rigidity, otherwise it'd be super easy to build alternative bike frames
12:39 < bkero> fenn: Good news: you can still braze bike frames
12:40 < ThomasEgi> there are cardboard bige frames.
12:40 < bkero> Additionally you can fiberglass the, just have to reinforce the right parts
12:40 < bkero> ThomasEgi: link to an actual cardboard frame I can buy for < $400?
12:40 < ThomasEgi> http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670753/this-9-cardboard-bike-can-support-riders-up-to-485lbs
12:40 < ThomasEgi> i'll take the other 391 bucks
12:40 < ThomasEgi> thx
12:40 < fenn> MIT media lab had a decent one made on their laser cutter
12:41 < fenn> i'm skeptical of the $9 claim
12:41 < bkero> ThomasEgi: "that I can buy"
12:42 < fenn> twike has the wheels on the wrong end :P
12:42 < ThomasEgi> hehe. true the twike looks a bit ugly.
12:42 < ThomasEgi> but rather fun to ride.
12:43 < ThomasEgi> the 2wheels in the front bikes are the real deal.
12:43 < ThomasEgi> low center of mass. 3 wheels..  that thing glues on the road even in extreme curves.
12:44 < fenn> you'd think it would be obvious but people keep making things with one wheel in front and two in back
12:44 < fenn> and pointy noses
12:44 < fenn> what, is it supersonic now?
12:45 < ThomasEgi> :D
12:45 < ThomasEgi> people have no idea. most are morons.
12:45 < fenn> at least add some speed holes and call it a wedge of swiss cheese
12:45 < ThomasEgi> they look at it and they go like "eew never going to ride that" instead they should just stfu and take a seat and find out why it was designed that way
12:46 < ThomasEgi> bkero, production of said cardboard cycles is planned for 2013
12:47 < bkero> ThomasEgi: yup, hope I can buy it sometime ever
12:47 < bkero> A thousand things could happen between now and then
12:47 < ThomasEgi> if not.. it's just cardboard. you can probably ask for instructions to build one yourself
12:47 < fenn> seems like it was pretty involved
12:47 < bkero> Try that and see what the response is :P
12:47 < fenn> also it contains a bunch of non cardboard parts
12:48 < fenn> better to just build your own and document it
12:48 < fenn> publish the documentation under gfdl or cc-sa
12:48 < ThomasEgi> shouldnt be too hard. most of those parts can be bought for a reasonable price.
12:48 < ThomasEgi> building a pvc bike should be rather easy,too.
12:48 < fenn> yeah but not under $9 per bike
12:48 < fenn> it's hard to triangulate pvc joints
12:49 < bkero> ThomasEgi: pvc isn't strong enough at the joints
12:49 < ThomasEgi> only a matter of doing it right
12:49 < ThomasEgi> of course you can't go with a design that's optimized for steel and aluminum.
12:49 < ThomasEgi> but that doesn't mean it is impossible
12:49 < ThomasEgi> i mean people build hanggliders from pvc tubes.too
12:49  * fenn mumbles something about ferrocement
12:49 < bkero> Nope, but will it be possible to make in a usable form factor?
12:50 < ThomasEgi> sure
12:50 < ThomasEgi> i see no reason why
12:50 < fenn> again, problem with pvc is rigidity
12:50 < ThomasEgi> i mean pvc is not "that" weak
12:51 < fenn> engineers once built a titanium motorcycle, looked great on paper but it rode like a bowl of jello
12:51 < ThomasEgi> you need bigger tube diameters but aside from that, there is not much fundamental change
12:51 < ThomasEgi> hehe bicycles are a lot less problematic than motorcycles
12:51 < fenn> i guess you could just wrap fiberglass tape around the pvc and be done with it
12:52 < fenn> i did that with a pumpkin trebuchet
12:53 < ThomasEgi> hehe. that sure works. using the pvc as positive and use the fibreglass to do the actual structure
12:57 < ThomasEgi> but then. i have no doubt it'd work without any reinforcements,too. given propper tube diameter and wall thickness.
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13:48 < nmz787> http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/aquaporins/waterpermeation.mpg
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13:49 < nmz787> so I was thinking if I have access to a FIB, is nanofluidics what I should really be thinking about instead of microfluidics
13:49 < nmz787> but apparently there are no google scholar entries for nanofluidic DNA synthesizer
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14:03 < jrayhawk> ls -atlr
14:03 < jrayhawk> whoops
14:07 < brownies> -t? -r?!
14:07 < brownies> what are these strange and exciting flags
14:07 < brownies> whoa. fascinating.
14:10 < fenn> last modified
14:11 < fenn> closely followed by du -a | sort -n
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14:33 < fenn> wish they would have a 360 panorama of inside the vehicle, wtf http://pterovelo.com/
14:33 < fenn> also it could use a kite or something, for visibility
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15:53 < kanzure> how do i replace the break pads on a 1991 chev sprint?
15:53 < thoughtcrime> take the wheel off
15:54 < thoughtcrime> remove the bolts that hold the caliper in place
15:54 < thoughtcrime> remove the old pads
15:55 < thoughtcrime> loosen the bleeder nipple and use a cclamp to compress the piston
15:55 < thoughtcrime> then tighten the nipple to air does not suck into the hydrolic system
15:55 < thoughtcrime> install new pads and replace caliper
15:55 < thoughtcrime> put wheel back on
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16:14 < nmz787> you dont have to loosen the bleeder nipple
16:14 < nmz787> just close the c clamp slowly
16:15 < thoughtcrime> oh!
16:16 < thoughtcrime> what if you never loosened the cap at the master cylinder
16:16 < thoughtcrime> wouldnt the pressure just return the piston into place?
16:17 < nmz787> the master cylinder usually just has a rubber gasket with a plastic cover with tabs keeping it shut
16:17 < nmz787> so pressure will just vent
16:17 < nmz787> and the reservoir will get a few microns higher
16:17 < nmz787> or maybe a few hundred microns
16:18 < thoughtcrime> its better to not open the bleeder nipple anyway
16:18 < thoughtcrime> if you dont have to
16:18 < thoughtcrime> 4def
16:18 < nmz787> maybe on ABS systems it is better to loosen caliper bleeder, but not on a 1991
16:18 < nmz787> that thing dont have ABS
16:19 < nmz787> :D
16:19 < thoughtcrime> mmm
16:19 < ParahSailin> fenn: re that thermophotovoltaic, exactly, 13 hp in a huge volume, mass
16:19 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@static-50-43-43-17.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:38 < fenn> good idea to change the fluid when changing pads though
16:39 < fenn> ParahSailin: i dont see why it's a huge volume.. it's about the same size as an equivalent power four stroke engine, and it's a research prototype
16:40 < ParahSailin> an equivalent 13 hp motor i could lift with one hand
16:41 < fenn> the TPV heat cans are mostly empty space.. i'd be surprised if it even weighed 50 pounds
16:42 < fenn> anyway, it's also an electrical generator, so comparison to just an engine is unfair
16:43 < fenn> a 10kW generator weighs 300lbs
16:43 < ParahSailin> you asked why do we still have moving parts; i answered
16:43 < ParahSailin> heat engines are very power-dense
16:44 < fenn> i'm not convinced
16:45 < fenn> i will send them an email and see if they know how much it weighed
16:47 < fenn> also a more reasonable comparison is stirling engines, since they use the same low grade heat
16:47 < jrayhawk> nmz787: backwashing rubber-contaminated brake fluid into the master cylinder is not desirable; brake changes are an excellent time to put fresh fluid in the system. also, you risk overflowing the reservoir and fucking up your paint.
16:48 < jrayhawk> well, maybe not *your* paint. ha ha you are from the east coast.
16:48 < thoughtcrime> moving parts?
16:48 < thoughtcrime> what about absolute zero
16:48 < ParahSailin> im willing to bet you 10 oz au that there will not be a more power dense method of generating electricity (excluding any device with a nuclear energy source) than a heat engine developed in the next 10 years
16:48 < thoughtcrime> its really hard to get thigns to stop moving
16:48 < ParahSailin> im negotiable on duration, and the wager
16:50 < fenn> why excluding nuclear energy sources? the whole reason i'm interested in heat to electricity is based on nuclear reactors anyway
16:51 < ParahSailin> btw 1700 K is not my idea of low grade heat
16:51 < fenn> do you think betavoltaic batteries are somehow exempt?
16:51 < ParahSailin> yes, im trying to avoid loopholes like that or focus fusion
16:52 < fenn> why is it a loophole?
16:52 < ParahSailin> because i believe it is physically possible for plasma fusion to produce direct electric current at extreme power density
16:52 < ParahSailin> no other reason
16:53 < fenn> so i'm confused what you're saying now, in general
16:54 < jrayhawk> screw you guys i am putting a NERVA rocket on the back of my car
16:54 < ParahSailin> i would not be willing to bet against the development of a fusion reactor with direct production of electric current
16:54 < ParahSailin> i would be willing to bet against pretty much anything else short of that matching the power density of a modern heat engine
16:54 < fenn> "there will be no more energy dense method of electricity developed EXCEPT a fusion reactor with direct production of electric current" is a pretty specific model of the unknown
16:55 < fenn> jrayhawk: gas core would be so much more environmentally friendly
16:56 < jrayhawk> irradiation will turn me into the hulk, right
16:56 < ParahSailin> ok, you can change the no nuclear clause to "nuclear only if it acts as a generic heat source for a heat to electricity generator"
16:56 < fenn> yeah, havent you heard of hormesis?
16:56 < jrayhawk> haha
16:56 < jrayhawk> that which does not kill me turns me into the hulk
16:57 < fenn> is there an equivalent thorium gas core rocket?
16:58 < ParahSailin> well are we talking about electrical generation or any sort of "useful work"
16:58 < fenn> oh i was just curious
16:59 < fenn> i'm sure there's some MHD way to generate electricity with rockets
16:59 < fenn> basically "lord kelvin's thunderstorm" on a grand scale
16:59 < thoughtcrime> how about a sterling engine
16:59 < thoughtcrime> then you can get power from all the things
16:59 < fenn> how about maxwell's demon
17:00 < fenn> then you can get power from the fires of hell
17:00 < thoughtcrime> how about this dick, adults are talking
17:00 < fenn> i don't see any adults
17:01 < fenn> wait a minute, the cold war is over?
17:01 < fenn> when did that happen? everybody just forgot!
17:01 < jrayhawk> the soviet union collapsed
17:01 < fenn> nooooooooo...
17:02 < fenn> how am i going to instantiate my experimental villages of perversion now?
17:02 < jrayhawk> don't worry, it's not like military spending has gotten significantly lower
17:04 < fenn> now it's all boring stuff though.. albuquerque is undergoing a major economic crisis because all the high tech companies that ran on cold war research funding have gone under
17:04 < jrayhawk> although now we assume unilateral warfare rather than military brinksmanship
17:04 < fenn> they just keep building hummers and blowing them up with bombs made of trash
17:04 < fenn> can't they make a bomb-proof hummer?
17:04 < ParahSailin> but i hear abq is a blue meth boom town
17:04 < fenn> what is "blue meth"?
17:05 < ParahSailin> heisenberg's meth
17:05 < jrayhawk> i wish we still did above-ground nuclear tests. i would've liked to have seen one of those.
17:05 < jrayhawk> now all we have to show for them is vegas
17:06 < fenn> don't worry my dear, soon we'll have clean hafnium triggered fusion bombs
17:06 < jrayhawk> hooray
17:06 < fenn> it's just been covered up, stimulated gamma emission is real i tell you
17:07 < strangewarp> I'll stimulate YOUR gamma emission
17:10 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
17:11 < fenn> please excuse this interruption http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/83c9c896daec7dbf4f29e01d1c30a5121233456000_full.jpg
17:13 < fenn> "It was nothing more than one of the local meth cooks taking a great deal of pride in his purity," Gibson says. "He ground up blue chalk to color it so he could market it as his."
17:13 < fenn> great, make ultra-pure meth and then add chalk to it so you know it's pure?
17:13 < fenn> i still don't know what blue meth is
17:13 < fenn> seems to be something required by television
17:14 < jrayhawk> huh, that hafnium bomb thing is interesting
17:14 < fenn> oh i see, it's being sold in _fictional_ albuquerque, not actually being sold in albuquerque
17:15 < fenn> jrayhawk: makes a nice battery too, if you can figure out the solid state heat conversion thing
17:16 < fenn> i'm still sorta iffy on where exactly these metastable nuclear isomers come from
17:16 < fenn> "Metastable Helium atoms are produced by an electric discharge in a small volume of helium gas in its ground state."
17:17 < fenn> how the hell does that cause a nuclear reaction?
17:18 < fenn> maybe metastable helium isn't a nuclear isomer.. duh
17:21 < fenn> gah, congress is trying to get rid of their helium stockpile
17:24 < fenn> "in 1996, the US passed the Helium Privatisation Act which directed that this reserve should be sold by 2015 at a price that would substantially pay off the federal government's original investment in building up the reserve."
17:37 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:38 < jrayhawk> "substantially pay off"? I thought we were running out of helium and the price was going crazy...?
17:39 < fenn> i dont get what investment they're talking about
17:39 < fenn> it's sitting in an abandoned oil well, how is that costing anything
17:45 < fenn> the evo-R velomobile is pretty cool but $10k is a bit steep http://www.flickr.com/photos/janbeeldrijk/5698358647/in/pool-555784@N20|janbeeldrijk
17:45 < fenn> er, $13k
17:46 < fenn> think i like the white one better http://tube.7s-b.com/go-one+evolution/
17:58 < jrayhawk> if you're already not caring about safety, low-displacement motorcycles and scooters get 85-105 MPG and are quite cheap to buy and maintain
18:00 < fenn> i'm doing it for the hotness
18:01 < fenn> besides, the bike is perfectly safe, it's those damn death monsters that kill people
18:01 < thoughtcrime> as long as it does 120kph up hill with 400lbs of cargo
18:02 < thoughtcrime> and a 400 mile range
18:02 < fenn> with my genetically engineered freak legs it should be no problem
18:03 < fenn> with a little boost from on board cold fusion power plant where necessary
18:04 < ThomasEgi> MPG is not the problem. the slower you go, the further you get
18:04 < fenn> btw i used to ride a honda ascot/VT500, basically a light sport bike. it got 50mpg, i guess they've improved in the last 25 years
18:04 < ThomasEgi> bout 20 to 25km/h are a very good speed for traveling insane distances
18:05 < ThomasEgi> at that speed. you can get hundrets of km on an electric bike with couple of lithium batteries.
18:05 < ThomasEgi> or. to be more precise. you can drive longer on one charge than you can stay awake steering the vehicle
18:05 < fenn> how many amp hours is "a couple"?
18:06 < ThomasEgi> depends
18:06 < ThomasEgi> on how far you wanna go.
18:06 < fenn> anyway solar panels aren't that expensive
18:06 < ThomasEgi> true
18:06 < fenn> if you know where to get them
18:06 < ThomasEgi> but you still need quite a bit of them.
18:06 < ThomasEgi> i'd be all in favor to get some tho.
18:06 < fenn> i got some broken cells on ebay for $15/250g, we'll see how that turns out
18:07 < ThomasEgi> solar powered recumbant bicycle with an small trailer for the solar panels and batteries.
18:08 < ThomasEgi> >100km range with li-batteries on a bicycle or light electric scooter is totaly doable
18:08 < ThomasEgi> upfront costs are a bit high, but if you use it a lot it pays of rather fast
18:08 < ParahSailin> broken pv cells?
18:09 < fenn> i guess they still hand-assemble solar panels, and some get broken in the process
18:09 < fenn> they still work though, they're just not rectangular anymore
18:09 < fenn> or not uniformly sized rectangles at least
18:10 < fenn> i need to figure out how to encapsulate them
18:10 < fenn> and supposedly you need some special soldering flux
18:11 < fenn> heat shrink EVA is probably what i'll do
18:11 < fenn> anyway not a lot of use for them now that i'm not living in the desert
18:11 < fenn> so solar powered recumbent it is
18:12 < ThomasEgi> never hurts to have them assembled in a ready to use panel tho
18:12 < fenn> if the panel is flat that's hard to integrate into a curved fairing
18:12 < ThomasEgi> just gave it a quick run. 100km range on a recumbent bike, with 250Watt power (that means no pedaling at all) should get you bit more than 32km/h.
18:13 < ThomasEgi> so for 100km you only neet power for running 3 hours at full power. makes 750Wh
18:14 < fenn> ok so i "only" need 80 18650 li-ion batteries
18:15 < ThomasEgi> or 3 blocks
18:15 < ThomasEgi> these days and ages. companies sell ready to use lead-acid replacement
18:16 < fenn> how much do those cost?
18:16 < ThomasEgi> comes with integrated charging and protection circuits.
18:17 < fenn> advances in battery technology over the last 3 years means i only need 50 batteries now
18:17 < ThomasEgi> as i said. with 3 of those big blocks that should work.
18:17 < fenn> at 2 for $3.15 that's only $80
18:18 < fenn> i heard A123 went bankrupt
18:18 < ThomasEgi> hm.. those big blocks go for bout 1euro16 cent per Wh
18:18 < fenn> that sounds like a lot
18:18 < ThomasEgi> it is
18:18 < ThomasEgi> but it comes with a lot of convenience. and good cycle stability
18:19 < ThomasEgi> as it is intended as 1:1 lead acid replacement
18:19 < ThomasEgi> wide temperature range. and integrated circuits
18:19 < ThomasEgi> you can charge it with any common lead battery charger
18:19 < fenn> well, whatever, i'm not scared of electronics
18:19 < ThomasEgi> effort sums up quite a lot for so many small batteries tho.
18:20 < fenn> i prefer the small cylinder because they can be hidden in the structure
18:20 < fenn> and super cheap and light..
18:21 < ThomasEgi> with the big blocks. the batteries would cost 1080 euros. would get you going just over 100km range on a signle charge
18:21 < fenn> why should i pay someone to put it in a box for me? i don't even want a box
18:21 < ThomasEgi> 12kg battery weight in total
18:21 < fenn> with individual cells it would cost $78
18:21 < ThomasEgi> you sure?
18:21 < ThomasEgi> 80 sounds ways too cheap
18:22 < ThomasEgi> that would be 1Wh for not even 9 ¢
18:23 < fenn> a few extra parentheses never hurt: (3.15USD/2)*(750W*hr)/(3.7V*3800mA*hr) = 84.014936 US$
18:23 < bkero> I go with zippy lipos, my bike gets about 100km range with 23Ah
18:23 < fenn> looking at http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-18650-UltraFire-Li-ion-3800mAh-3-7V-Rechargeable-Battery-Blue-for-LED-Torch-/130737270524
18:23 < ThomasEgi> brownies, i calculated with no-leg-work at all.
18:24 < fenn> assuming their specs are correct, but this is just a napkin calculation anyway
18:24 < ThomasEgi> at 30km/h speed
18:24 < brownies> what?
18:24 < fenn> nick collision
18:24 < ParahSailin> muscles actually do have power density that approach that of heat engines
18:24 < ThomasEgi> sry brownies . i wanted to reply to bkero
18:24 < bkero> ThomasEgi: 30km easy, my bike goes 60kph
18:25 < ThomasEgi> brownies, what voltage does your battery come with?
18:25  * brownies smacks ThomasEgi 
18:25 < ThomasEgi> aaah darn
18:25 < ThomasEgi> bkero,
18:25 < ThomasEgi> sry brownies
18:25 < bkero> ThomasEgi: 14s4p lipo
18:25 < ThomasEgi> bk so you get 14*3.7V ?
18:26 < bkero> yes
18:27 < ThomasEgi> bkero, that's 1100Wh
18:27 < ThomasEgi> even more than the 750Wh i calculated as neccessary
18:28 < ThomasEgi> how much did you pay for your batteries?
18:28 < bkero> 1191.4
18:28 < bkero> I think the batteries were ~$65 each
18:28 < bkero> 8 of them
18:29 < fenn> i calculate 750Wh those 18650 cells would weigh 2.33kg
18:29 < ThomasEgi> fenn, then their numbers lie.
18:29 < fenn> how do you figure?
18:30 < ThomasEgi> gravimetric energy density
18:30 < fenn> aside from a complicated data logging setup, how do i measure the actual capacity?
18:30 < bkero> 18650 cells have discharge problems, they just can't discharge fast enough.
18:30 < bkero> Look at their C rate.
18:30 < ThomasEgi> fenn, no way around other than logging the discharge parameters
18:31 < fenn> what kind of word is "gravimetric" anyway
18:31 < ThomasEgi> fenn, i mean.. those cells would be at the very top theoretical limit of what's possible for a lithium ion battery
18:31 < ThomasEgi> but ... i doubt they'd sell them for such a low price
18:32 < ThomasEgi> besides.. li-ion has horrible self discharge
18:32 < ThomasEgi> more up to 30% per month
18:33 < ThomasEgi> average price for such cells is somewhere around 30 cent /Wh
18:33 < fenn> wp says 0.72MJ/kg which is 15% more than the battery i just weighed
18:33 < ThomasEgi> the ebay article you linked is 3 times cheaper.
18:33 < fenn> oop, 15% less
18:33 < ThomasEgi> you have those batteries?
18:33 < fenn> hm no i have a different battery, sorry
18:33 < fenn> i'm muddying the issue now :(
18:33 < ThomasEgi> mhm. if there's one thing i learned.. never trust chinese numbers
18:34 < ThomasEgi> i mean sure those batteries are a lot cheaper than those big blocks.
18:34 < fenn> you think they lie by an order of magnitude though?
18:34 < ThomasEgi> but .. they probably are of low quality at that price. and you have to monitor each individual cell for faliure. which is a lot of circuits.
18:34 < ThomasEgi> yeah
18:35 < ThomasEgi> my maximum lie level i experienced was.. they advertised twice as much performance as they delivered
18:35 < fenn> well it's still 5 times cheaper
18:36 < ThomasEgi> my guess is, their actual charge is more like 2300 to 2600 mAh or so
18:36 < ThomasEgi> also. you need to calculate that over the lifetime of the battery cycle use
18:37 < ThomasEgi> some are losing capacity after just a couple hundret cycles.
18:37 < ThomasEgi> the big block has a rated lifetime of over 2000 cycles at 100% discharge
18:37 < fenn> random alibaba page says the 3800 mAh batteries weigh 72g, not 43g
18:38 < ThomasEgi> they are usualy a bit bigger ,too.
18:38 < fenn> which is within the gravimetric energy density
18:38 < fenn> yeah i read the diameter can vary by 1mm or more
18:38 < ThomasEgi> that's why i immediately got this "uh-oh, something aint right here" alert.
18:39 < fenn> i'm also interested in nickel iron batteries, but nobody makes them anymore
18:39 < ThomasEgi> mhm.. yeah. not so great gravimetrical energy density tho
18:39 < fenn> supposedly these also have terrible discharge characteristics
18:40 < ThomasEgi> those big battery blocks are made by a company named Vision. it's lithium iron
18:40 < ThomasEgi> the shop i found them at tends to be rather expensive.
18:40 < fenn> motorcycle battery?
18:40 < ThomasEgi> maybe there'sa cheaper source
18:40 < fenn> does it mean they're for starting motorcycle engines?
18:40 < ThomasEgi> not sure. it seems like a general purpose lead-acid replacement
18:41 < ThomasEgi> they do have high current rating
18:41 < ThomasEgi> 10C discharge continuously.. 20C discharge pulse
18:41 < ThomasEgi> would very well work for starting motorcycle engines
18:41 < ThomasEgi> -30 to +60°C temperature range
18:43 < fenn> yeah lithium iron phosphate has good discharge rate
18:43 < ThomasEgi> found them at another store. same price tho
18:43 < bkero> Discharge on my lipo batteries is 35c :)
18:43 < bkero> 25c continual I guess.  These guys: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21384__ZIPPY_Compact_5800mAh_7S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html
18:44 < ThomasEgi> hm.. if we lower the speed to from 33km/h to 28km/h ... range increases quite a bit. to 54km/big battery block.
18:44 < ThomasEgi> or.. from 100 to bout 150 km given the above numbers
18:46 < fenn> okay cheapest li-fe-p batteries on ebay are about 3x the cost of li-ion in terms of energy density
18:46 < fenn> i wonder if some sort of hybrid battery system would be feasible
18:46 < bkero> fenn: some reason the ones I linked wouldn't work?
18:47 < fenn> about the same, a little more
18:47 < fenn> sure they would work
18:47 < fenn> those are li-poly
18:47 < ThomasEgi> bkero, no cycle life given, no propper datasheet, no temperature range given.
18:50 < ThomasEgi> bit less than half the price of the li-fe
18:50 < fenn> estimating i could get 500W out of 50 18650's
18:51 < ThomasEgi> that's with the cells only. no charging circuit. no balancing, no monitoring.
18:51 < fenn> right
18:52 < fenn> something i discovered recently
18:53 < fenn> these li-ion cells i have now have been sitting in a hot warehouse for 3 years, and they were fully charged when i measured them
18:53 < bkero> ThomasEgi: They moved my ass to work 6 miles today in 3c :)
18:53 < fenn> " According to one manufacturer, lithium-ion cells (and, accordingly, "dumb" lithium-ion batteries) do not have any self-discharge in the usual meaning of this word.[35] What looks like a self-discharge in these batteries is a permanent loss of capacity"
18:55 < ThomasEgi> hot and lithium doesnt sound like a good combination
18:55 < ThomasEgi> they work for ages if they are kept at moderate temperatures and are charged from time to time
18:57 < fenn> well, hot in this case is 35C
18:57 < ThomasEgi> i'd spend those few extra bucks on the big blocks. just to have an easy interface, and proper protection of the cells, rated lifetime and temperature range
18:57 < fenn> i'm using the 18650 in a wearable computer, which is a large part of why i'm considering them for other stuff
18:58 < fenn> sort of tired of the battery menagerie
18:59 -!- uf6667 [~uf@host81-151-78-220.range81-151.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
18:59 < fenn> also i don't like large packs because if one cell goes bad you have to hack it apart to replace it
18:59 < fenn> i have a sealed lead acid that's now useless because it sat discharged for too long
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19:00 < fenn> presumably one cell reversed and that's preventing it from taking up a charge
19:01 < fenn> heh they make li-ion chainsaws now
19:01 < fenn> oh it's a hedge trimmer
19:02 < ThomasEgi> makes sense..
19:02 < ThomasEgi> gasoline chainsaws are rather heavy. tiring to work with them all day
19:02 < ThomasEgi> and they suffer horrible vibration
19:03 < fenn> they also use a lot of power and are often used far from any electrical grid
19:03 < ThomasEgi> but then.. i havent tested zeolite out yet:) i still have that low-pressure-motor in mind.
19:03 < fenn> i eagerly await the results of your experiment
19:03 < ThomasEgi> still havent received the zeolite yet
19:04 < fenn> theoretically it can absorb 20% of its mass in water, but the vapor pressure of room temperature water is not that high
19:05 < fenn> 2.8kPa
19:06 < fenn> 0.2kg of water vapor yields 696J at room temperature
19:06 < ThomasEgi> for a desert that looks a lot higher already
19:06 < ThomasEgi> can't be.. sould be ways more
19:07 < fenn> units 2.8kPa*22.4l/18g*0.2kg J
19:07 < fenn> does that look right?
19:08 < ThomasEgi> did you calculate that down with actual Pa and kg values?
19:08 < ThomasEgi> ironing out the g and kPa?
19:09 < fenn> i just plugged it into "units" like that
19:09 < fenn> i can't be arsed to do arithmetic :)
19:11 < fenn> blegh.. thanks for nothing wolfram
19:12 < ThomasEgi> i get 31hPa for 25°C
19:12 < ThomasEgi> 23hPa for 20°C
19:12 < fenn> same thing
19:13 < fenn> who uses "hecto" really
19:13 < ThomasEgi> those who want an easy way to convert to BAR
19:14 < fenn> oh hPa is mbar
19:15 < ThomasEgi> bingbingbing
19:15 < ThomasEgi> so.. water vapor is bout 10% heavier than regular air. means it weights bout 1.1kg per m³ (rough numbers only) at 1000hPa
19:16 < ThomasEgi> means with 1.1kg we get bout 43m³ of vapor at 25hPa
19:17  * fenn grumbles something about stone force per kilderkin furlong
19:17 < ThomasEgi> since Pa is N/m². we get  ...
19:17 < ParahSailin> water is heavier than air?
19:17 < ThomasEgi> 2500N *  43M
19:18 < ParahSailin> isnt air like 70 % nitrogen, 20 % oxygen?
19:18 < fenn> wp says 0.8g/ml
19:18 < ThomasEgi> bit more than 100kJ per kg water
19:18 < fenn> oops 0.8g/l
19:18 < ThomasEgi> ParahSailin, yeah. both are lighter than water. slightly.
19:18 < ParahSailin> how much argon is in air
19:18 < ThomasEgi> vater vapor
19:19 < ThomasEgi> so.. roughly. bout 20kJ per kg zeolite
19:19 < fenn> and air is 1.2 ish g/l so it seems water is lighter
19:19 < ParahSailin> N2 is 15*2, O2 is 16*2, water is 16+2?
19:19 < ParahSailin> am i missing something?
19:19 < fenn> no you're right ParahSailin
19:19 < ThomasEgi> what. 16*2
19:19 < ThomasEgi> ... darn
19:19 < ThomasEgi> sry. .it's 4am for me
19:19 < ThomasEgi> must've missed that one
19:20 < ThomasEgi> of course you'r right
19:20 < ThomasEgi> so.. you need half as much water, to fill the same room of air?
19:20 < ThomasEgi> same room of nothing^
19:20 < ThomasEgi> which would double the output?
19:22 < fenn> anyway, 25mbar, and 0.8kg/m^3 means .. um.. 3.125 J/kg
19:22 < fenn> gah 3.125 kJ/kg
19:23 < ThomasEgi> wait.. how do you get on 0.8kg/m³??
19:23 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor#Water_vapor_and_dry_air_density_calculations_at_0_.C2.B0C
19:23 < ThomasEgi> we don't have air in there.
19:23 < ThomasEgi> it's water only
19:23 < fenn> "The density (mass/volume) of water vapor is 0.804 g/litre, which is significantly less than that of dry air at 1.27 g/liter at STP"
19:24 < fenn> i dont see what air has to do with anything
19:24 < fenn> there's no air in the system anywhere
19:25 < ThomasEgi> but that assumes standard temperature and pressure?
19:25 < fenn> that's 0C.. i'm sure it's a little bit lower density at higher temperatures but not by much
19:26 < ThomasEgi> .8g/l would mean it's 800g/m³
19:26 < fenn> yes
19:26 < fenn> ever tried to build an airship?
19:27 < fenn> hyperphysics weighs in, so to speak: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/watvap.html
19:27 < ThomasEgi> no but... 800g/m³ for the water alone??
19:28 < ThomasEgi> the entire air is only slightly heaver.
19:28 < ThomasEgi> and given the mollier diagramm , air can only hold 15g of watervapor /m³ at 20°C ?
19:28 < fenn> i'm sort of confused
19:29 < ThomasEgi> something doesn'- match here. and i'd say there's no way to stuff 800g of water into 1m³ of space at room temperature by letting it vaporize.
19:29  * fenn looks up dead french guys
19:29 < ThomasEgi> since partial pressures should add up, i'd go with the 15g/m³ at 23hPa
19:31 < ThomasEgi> which is about 150kJ per kg water.
19:31 < ThomasEgi> or 30kJ per kg zeolite
19:32 < fenn> where does 15g/m^3 come from?
19:32 < ThomasEgi> mollier diagramm
19:32 < ThomasEgi> which makes... a total of about 8Wh/kg
19:32 < ThomasEgi> sorta.. lower than i hoped it would be
19:33 < fenn> why do wikipedia and hyperphysics disagree by 4600%?
19:34 < fenn> i think 800g/m^3 is for 100C, not 0C
19:35 < ThomasEgi> that might very well be
19:35 < ThomasEgi> ... or.. maybe not
19:36 < ThomasEgi> that would mean 1kg of water would fill up just a bit more than 1m³ of air?
19:36 < ThomasEgi> *space
19:36 < fenn> yeah.. hyperphysics says 598g/m^3 at 100C but whatever
19:36 < ThomasEgi> hm.... ok. doesn't sound totaly unrealistic.
19:37 < ThomasEgi> so.. point being. zeolite isn't half as great as i thought it might be.
19:37 < ThomasEgi> but then.. for 1000 bucks you can get a ton
19:37 < ParahSailin> what did you want zeolite for?
19:37 < ThomasEgi> which makes 200 kg of water
19:38 < fenn> ParahSailin: the zeolite is used as a dessicant to condense water out of dry desert air where there is no way to drill a well
19:38 < ThomasEgi> makes 30MJ of energy stored in one ton of zeolite....
19:38 < fenn> = less than one gallon of gas
19:38 < fenn> but hey it's reusable
19:39 < ParahSailin> oh, what is the partitioning coefficient, adsorbing to zeolite
19:39 < ThomasEgi> that's.. 10 times more energy per money than li-fe battery
19:39 < fenn> that's low pressure pneumatic energy btw
19:39 < ThomasEgi> easy enough to use.
19:39 < fenn> also you need heat exchangers etc
19:39 < ThomasEgi> differential membrane motor.
19:39 < ThomasEgi> and you'r set
19:39 < fenn> unless you meant to boil the water somehow
19:40 < ThomasEgi> well it would be for storing the energy only
19:40 < ThomasEgi> if we do end up with tons of zeolite to mess around with. we might use some of it to store energy for the evening night.
19:41 < ThomasEgi> but then.. lead-acid still beats it
19:41 < ThomasEgi> for stationary buffering.
19:41 < fenn> you have an evacuated water tank.. where's the energy come from? water only contains 4.18j/gC until it freezes
19:41 < fenn> it's a neat idea, but not suitable for powering a bicycle
19:41 < ThomasEgi> yeah. you need to thermically couple it.
19:41 < ThomasEgi> indeed
19:42 < ThomasEgi> guess with li-fe you get quite far.
19:42 < ThomasEgi> wtih some solar panels even more so..
19:42 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@static-50-43-43-17.bvtn.or.frontiernet.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:43 < fenn> or 25GJ/g of nickel in a cold fusion reactor :P
19:43 < fenn> or something like that, nobody has done an accurate measurement
19:44 < ThomasEgi> if you get that running. great thing
19:45 < ThomasEgi> until then. i'll take the battery, solar panel and maybe a wind turbine , depending on the location
19:45 < fenn> btw what is a differential membrane motor?
19:45 < ThomasEgi> something i came up with for that zeolite thing
19:46 < ThomasEgi> a piston-less engine.
19:46 < fenn> like a cuica (brazilian instrument)
19:46 < fenn> herp derp
19:46 < fenn> no good pictures illustrating how it works
19:47 < ThomasEgi> not sure.
19:47 < fenn> anyway, there's a string attached to a membrane, vacuum pulls on the membrane and pulls the string, which does stuff..
19:47 < ThomasEgi> yeah sorta like that
19:47 < ThomasEgi> but with 2 membrane instead
19:48 < ThomasEgi> working aganist each other.
19:48 < fenn> right
19:48 < ThomasEgi> so.. atmospheric pressure cancels out
19:48 < ThomasEgi> no need for sliding parts or sealing or lubricants or anything
19:48 < ThomasEgi> depends on the membranes lifetime tho.
19:48 < fenn> stainless diaphragm should last forever, if it's below the fatigue limit
19:49 < ThomasEgi> as long as no mega-fatigue kicks in. but yeah.
19:49 < ThomasEgi> but then.. the whole thing is half as brilliant as i hoped for
19:50 < ThomasEgi> at least for mobile use it is out of question
19:51 < fenn> but vapor pressure goes up with water temp
19:51 < fenn> so you can power it with low grade waste heat
19:52 < fenn> maybe even regenerative cycle, since the zeolite heats up when it adsorbs water vapor
19:52 < fenn> it's a little late for me to be doing enthalpy calculations though
19:53 < fenn>  isosteric heat of adsorption for the system water−3A zeolite was evaluated ... to be 57.95 kJ/mol.
19:54 < ThomasEgi> hm.. well it might be an idea.. in case someone decides we can have like 10 tons of zeolite too much or so
19:54 < ThomasEgi> 1 mol would be 18 gramm?
19:54 < fenn> so that's 3.2MJ/kg
19:55 < ThomasEgi> a bit off my initial calculation
19:55 < ThomasEgi> but than. that's heat.
19:55 < fenn> that's the other side of the machine
19:55 < fenn> so you just need to have it bite its tail
19:55 < fenn> i'm sure you would have noticed if you had tried to build it :)
19:55 < ThomasEgi> who cares. with a desert sun... we get MJ for free
19:56 < fenn> yeah but portable, you don't necessarily have lots of sun area
19:56 < ThomasEgi> indeed. not an option for portable.
19:56 < ThomasEgi> you'd be better of with a parabol-rin that adjusts to sun while driving
19:56 < fenn> bah
19:57 < ThomasEgi> or photovoltaic cells .
19:57 < ThomasEgi> or just use rockets
19:57 < fenn> or just use gasoline
19:57 < ThomasEgi> btw.. we really should stop spamming. we have a better channel for this
19:57 < ThomasEgi> gasoline.. meeh.. can't we at least something we can re-grow?
19:57 < fenn> hydrogen
19:57 < ThomasEgi> like.. growing alge or so. and burn that?
19:58 < ThomasEgi> gen modified bacteria?
19:58 < ThomasEgi> synthesising hydrogen from water and sunlight?
19:58 < fenn> i like zeolite because it's pure thermal, no energy conversion loss in the regeneration
19:58 < ThomasEgi> yeah. but. still not an option for portable stuff
19:58 < fenn> you can crack water with concentrated solar.. pretty high tech though
19:58 < nmz787> not hydrogen
19:58 < nmz787> butanol
19:59 < ThomasEgi> butanol sounds like something that would burn,too.
19:59 < fenn> where's butanol come from?
19:59 < nmz787> bacterias
19:59 < ThomasEgi> alge?
19:59 < nmz787> maybe algae
19:59 < ThomasEgi> alge feeding bacteria would be fine,too
19:59 < nmz787> but butanol can go into gasoline pipelines and engines
19:59 < fenn> oh, thermal depolymerization means you can burn anything really
19:59 < ThomasEgi> there are external-heated engines. whatever makes heat will work
19:59 < fenn> starch, protein, cell membrane
20:00 < fenn> the trick is getting the algae out of the water
20:00 < ThomasEgi> i don't se a problem there
20:00 < yashgaroth> and the water out of the algae
20:00 < fenn> well, they're really small, so they clog up filters
20:01 < ThomasEgi> take a big sheet of cloth, fish it out. press dry, put in the sun on a black surface.
20:01  * fenn shrugs
20:01 < yashgaroth> continuous centrifuge
20:01 < ThomasEgi> too much technology^
20:01 < fenn> i think it makes sense to eat algae, but not to burn it
20:02 < ThomasEgi> uh..
20:02 < ThomasEgi> that slimy stuff?
20:02 < ThomasEgi> can't imagine it tastes too good
20:02 < fenn> well you have to process it a little, even plain spinach tastes bad
20:02 < yashgaroth> seaweed is damn tasty
20:02 < ThomasEgi> i'd rather feed some other small crabs or so with it
20:02 < ThomasEgi> seaweed is.. weed..
20:02 < ThomasEgi> but alge is alge.
20:03 < fenn> generally the idea is to get some long chain omega-3 fats into your diet
20:03 < yashgaroth> seaweed is algae
20:03 < ThomasEgi> can't we feed the alge to krill.
20:03 < ThomasEgi> and eat the krill?
20:03 < fenn> so feeding crabs or krill would work
20:03 < ThomasEgi> or feed the krill to bigger things?
20:03 < fenn> you lose some energy with each conversion
20:03 < ThomasEgi> i don't care
20:04 < ThomasEgi> sun shines enough down on earth
20:04 < ThomasEgi> why not use it
20:04 < fenn> krill is not bad though, needs refrigerated though
20:04 < ThomasEgi> i'd rather see how armies of krill eats up the stream of alge poured into their watertank.
20:04 < ThomasEgi> sounds a bit like those life-spheres nasa invented
20:04 < fenn> i think low temperatures select for algae that has the most long chain omega-3 fats
20:05 < ThomasEgi> except adding tons more water and sun and taking out krill
20:05 < fenn> krill need to scrape algae off a surface to eat it
20:05 < nmz787> ThomasEgi: even farmers use continuous centrifuges to skim off cream
20:05 < fenn> also they're very messy eaters, they leave "spitballs" of dead algae floating around
20:05 < nmz787> not /too/ much tech
20:06 < yashgaroth> "For mass-consumption and commercially prepared products they must be peeled, because their exoskeleton contains fluorides, which are toxic in high concentrations."
20:06 < yashgaroth> that might just be for wild-caught krill though
20:06 < fenn> so dont give them fluorine
20:06 < ThomasEgi> hm.. what if we feed it to bigger animals
20:06 < ThomasEgi> like fish?
20:06 < ThomasEgi> i'd totaly go for piranhas
20:06 < fenn> how do fish eat algae soup?
20:06 < yashgaroth> via delicious krill
20:06 < ThomasEgi> fish should eat the krill
20:07 < fenn> i know there are some filter feeders like sardines(?)
20:07 < ThomasEgi> hm. never really liked sardines. but then i only met them in cans
20:07 < fenn> but do they eat algae? or some other zooplankton
20:07 < fenn> mackerel is much tastier fwiw
20:07 < fenn> i think mackerel also is a filter feeder
20:07 < ThomasEgi> can't we just gen-mod alge to poop cupcakes?
20:08 < fenn> not really because then you need perfectly sterile cultures
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20:08 < yashgaroth> I'm writing the grant proposal as we speak
20:08 < ThomasEgi> for cupcake pooping alge?
20:08 < fenn> wild algae spores are everywhere
20:08 < fenn> they will outcompete your cupcakes in no time
20:08 < ThomasEgi> yeah.. i have tons of them sitting in my glasses standing on my window
20:08 < ThomasEgi> hm. darn
20:09 < ThomasEgi> make it dominant!
20:09 < ThomasEgi> ... oceans full of cupcakes..
20:09 < ThomasEgi> ok.. probably not the best idea i ever had. but close to it.
20:09 < fenn> it could work, just moves the work around to a different part of the process
20:09 < nmz787> why couldn't you just engineer the algae to produce antibiotics but also be reisistant to those drugs... so it would be immune but there'd always be advantage for them
20:09 < fenn> then you have antibiotics in your cupcakes
20:10 < nmz787> i thought we were burning the things
20:10 < fenn> burn cupcakes?!
20:10 < fenn> what kind of sick...
20:10  * nmz787 creeps back into the darrkness of cyberspace
20:12 < fenn> hum.. algae farming for food is definitely a thing to do in the desert
20:12 < ThomasEgi> ... jeez things went totaly fubar
20:12 < ThomasEgi> definetly not wrong
20:12 < ThomasEgi> given you can turn alge into something not only edible but also something i'd rate as food
20:12 < fenn> and you prevent vegans from dying of malnutrition
20:13 < fenn> i liked the idea of high omega-3 algae ice cream
20:13 < ThomasEgi> ice-alge..
20:13 < fenn> more realistic than cupcakes at least
20:14 < ThomasEgi> somewhat
20:14 < fenn> they used strawberry flavor, apparently it just tastes like strawberry ice cream
20:14 < ThomasEgi> i don't really like strawberry flavor... tastes nothing like strawberry.
20:14 < fenn> http://www.umassmag.com/Winter_2005/Algae_a_la_Mode_827.html
20:16 < ThomasEgi> certainly an option
20:16 < fenn> oh great, "the same way we swish down our calcium in orange juice. "
20:16 < ThomasEgi> altho i don'- really like the idea of living on icecream.
20:16 < ThomasEgi> oranges..
20:16 < ThomasEgi> should grow pretty well there.
20:16 < ThomasEgi> they like hot weather.
20:16 < ThomasEgi> given we have enough water for them
20:16 < nmz787> the problem with deserts is the relative lack of hydrogen
20:16 < nmz787> need H for H-carbons
20:16 < fenn> hopefully they won't add calcium to it
20:17 < ThomasEgi> and.. lack of hydrogen.. we'r working on this
20:17 < fenn> um, water, hello
20:17 < fenn> see previous discussion of zeolite adsorbant
20:18 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, with a bit of luck.. we probably drown starving rather than die from dehydration
20:18 < nmz787> you're gonna truck in adsorbed zeolite?
20:18 < ThomasEgi> exactly
20:18 < fenn> sorry that was in a different channel
20:18 < nmz787> wait huh?
20:18 < nmz787> where do you get good water in the desert?
20:18 < ThomasEgi> air
20:18 < fenn> zeolite adsorbs 20% of its weight in water, and can be regenerated with solar thermal
20:18 < fenn> so you cook out the water and condense it
20:18 < nmz787> sure there are a few rivers, but the colorado doesn't even connect anymore at the end
20:19 < fenn> then set the zeolite out on trays to adsorb more
20:19 < fenn> there is still plenty of water vapor even in dry desert air
20:19 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, there's bout 8g of water per m³ of air. even on a hot day in desert
20:19 < nmz787> hmm
20:19 < ThomasEgi> doesnt sound much. but there is a lot of air. and it sums up
20:19 < ThomasEgi> and with zeolite. all you need is.. a solar boiler.
20:20 < ThomasEgi> and.. well a few tons of zeolite. but that's affordable.
20:20 < nmz787> so the whole moving the zeolite back and forth, does it work out energetically?
20:20 < fenn> ThomasEgi: so the stuff you got, is it pellets? what are the dimensions of a granule?
20:20 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, nah that was for using it as energy storage. different purpose.
20:20 < ThomasEgi> havent received it yet. they should be small globular spheres.
20:21 < ThomasEgi> somewhere between 2 and 5mm
20:21 < fenn> nmz787: in the water absorbing machine, it moves itself in and out of the cooker, like a dipping bird, because it weighs more when saturated
20:21 < ThomasEgi> not sure. you can get them any size in big quantities
20:21 < nmz787> well you have to spend energy to move it for water purposes too, and if you're then using the water to feed algae to get butanol, etc
20:21 < nmz787> aren't you burning the butanol to move the engine that moves the zeolite?
20:21 < ThomasEgi> no.
20:21 < ThomasEgi> the zeolite gains weight . so ... it pretty much is a self runner
20:21 < ThomasEgi> and once you have water. you can build a solar powered steam engine
20:21 < nmz787> but you physically have to move it from the air to the extractor
20:22 < ThomasEgi> sure.
20:22 < nmz787> or is that just a valve opening closing
20:22 < fenn> i'm imagining the cooker/absorber sitting on a tower with flat mirrors reflecting the sun on it
20:22 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, that's really not much of a problem. in a desert.. there's an almost infinite ammount of energy shining down on you
20:22 < fenn> it just sits there all day bobbing up and down
20:22 < ThomasEgi> moving a few panels.. no problem at all.
20:23 < nmz787> fenn like the drinking bird?
20:23 < fenn> right
20:23 < nmz787> heh heh
20:23 < fenn> the drinking bird is powered by evaporation, but this is powered by the thermal gradient from the sun
20:23 < ThomasEgi> well there are many ways
20:24 < ThomasEgi> and.. in worst case.. a small solar panel is all you need to slowly move the panels around
20:24 < ThomasEgi> it's not like you need a lot of power to do that
20:24 < fenn> yeah it could be continuous like in a dessicant wheel
20:24 < nmz787> a solar panel has a lot of invested energy already though
20:24 < nmz787> the payoff is pretty long right?
20:24 < ThomasEgi> sure.
20:24 < ThomasEgi> but what we really need is. water
20:24 < ThomasEgi> once you have water... the rest is rather easy.
20:25 < fenn> much easier on earth than luna
20:25 < fenn> there you gotta sift through the dust to find trapped protons from millions of years ago
20:26 < fenn> i wonder what the voltage of the moon is
20:26 < ThomasEgi> so.. we just hang up the zeolite into the air.. and wait a couple of hours. then we cook them dry for a couple of hours.
20:26 < ThomasEgi> and we get a couple of dozen liter water. or more
20:27 < fenn> "the surface charge can get as big as 4,500 volts." aww that's barely an astronomical number
20:28 < ThomasEgi> bet i can get more with my socks on this floor^
20:28 < fenn> i like that they used "big" as the adjective
20:29 < fenn> my what big volts you have
20:29 < fenn> the better to motivate you with, my dear
20:30 < ThomasEgi> hm. talking bout big volts
20:30 < ThomasEgi> aside from a reconnect that should happen soon on my end.
20:30 < ThomasEgi> there's another company that produces li-fe batteries
20:31 < ThomasEgi> slightly cheaper. only a tad more than 1euro/Wh
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20:34 < ThomasEgi> sry for the interruption. did i miss anything?
20:34 < fenn> no
20:41 < ThomasEgi> BYD seems to sell batteries for cars and ebikes. they also sell those lead-acid replacements
20:42 < ThomasEgi> some for less than 1euro/Wh
20:45 < fenn> it seems charging voltage has the largest effect on battery life expectancy
20:45 < ThomasEgi> and discharge depth
20:45 < fenn> 4.2V lasts >> 400 cycles whereas the same battery charged at 4.35V only lasts 200 cycles
20:45 < ThomasEgi> charging voltage would be handled by the battery management system. in case of the bigger battery blocks
20:46 < fenn> wish they had extended the curve all the way (how long does it actually last?)
20:46 < ThomasEgi> fenn, comes even worse, the charge voltage is temperatur dependent
20:46 < fenn> okay what if you charge at 4.1V? does it matter then?
20:47 < ThomasEgi> then you get a lot less capacity then rated
20:47 < fenn> seems like it barely matters
20:47 < fenn> it's less than 10% capacity difference
20:48 < ThomasEgi> depends on the battery type.
20:48 < ThomasEgi> and the accuracy of the datasheet ;)
20:48 < ThomasEgi> btw. those "blocks" are also available in smaller sizes
20:48 < ThomasEgi> at almost the same price.
20:49 < ThomasEgi> so if you are afraid of one going bad. you can have 10 smaller ones instead of 3 big
20:49 < fenn> i didnt realize that keeping a li-ion battery charged was bad for it. i thought discharging it was what caused capacity loss
20:50 < ThomasEgi> keeping it charged isnt so bad
20:50 < ThomasEgi> keeping it deep-discharged is a lot worse
20:51 < fenn> i'm thinking it makes sense to have a high rate battery chemistry for rapid acceleration and regenerative braking, and a large high capacity but low rate pack to provide the bulk of the energy
20:52 < fenn> with a smart "fuzzy logic" or similar controller to balance out the charge between them
20:52 < ThomasEgi> ... just add a few supercaps. on your motor controller. and you are good to go
20:52 < ThomasEgi> no need for fuzzy logic.. current aint fuzzy^
20:52 < fenn> that's definitely an option
20:53 < ThomasEgi> but then. that's mostly a thing for city-use
20:53 < fenn> supercaps are usually pitifully low voltage, and stacking capacitors in series is not good if they have high ESR
20:53 < fenn> so you'd need to do some crazy buck boost circuit to get everything at the right voltage
20:55 < ThomasEgi> who cares bout ESR in an electric vehicle?
20:55 < ThomasEgi> it aint "that" bad
20:55 < fenn> omg this is 10F https://www.sparkfun.com/products/746
20:56 < ThomasEgi> .. there are 3000F caps.
20:56 < ThomasEgi> for voltages around 2 volt or so
20:57 < ThomasEgi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/370618540568?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item564a962218
20:57 < ThomasEgi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3000F-2-7V-Supercap-3000-Farad-Super-Ultra-Capacitor-/150642133382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2312f88986
20:58 < ThomasEgi> with 2000Amps peak current.. not half as bad
20:58 < ThomasEgi> if you short it, charged. you WISH that can would've only been a harmless energy drink
20:59 < fenn> first one says it's 370 farads (at 12 volts?)
20:59 < fenn> so 53kJ
20:59 < ThomasEgi> sounds fun..
21:00 < ThomasEgi> ... bloody fun.
21:00 < fenn> so that ought to be enough to get me up to 80kph
21:01 < fenn> let me add a warranty.. yeah right
21:02 < fenn> i just wanna know what order of magnitude the ESR is
21:02 < ThomasEgi> usualy around 0.3mOhm
21:02 < ThomasEgi> so even with 7 in series... you are still within lower single digit mOhm
21:03 < ThomasEgi> my guess is.. whatever wire you use to short it... it'll most likely just BANG and vaporize.
21:04 < fenn> the sparkfun 10F has 40-80 ohm internal
21:04 < fenn> it's more a concern for heat buildup when cycling the capacitor
21:05 < fenn> it's a lot of energy moving around .. kilojoules you know
21:05 < ThomasEgi> sparkfun..
21:05 < ThomasEgi> that aint a cap.
21:05 < ThomasEgi> that's decoration
21:05 < fenn> but it has a datasheet
21:05 < fenn> i figure they're all made of similar enough materials
21:05 < ThomasEgi> true.. it is still decoration. nothing you'd use in a vehicle.
21:05 < ThomasEgi> those caps should go in something like a smoke detector to make up for a failing battery or so
21:06 < ThomasEgi> material and dimensioning the materials are 2 things
21:07 < fenn> "super diesel battery booster" isn't going to tell me how much their product heats up per cycle, because they don't know and don't care
21:07 < ThomasEgi> you can find DC and AC ESR
21:07 < ThomasEgi> spoiler. both are below 0.3mOhms.
21:08 < fenn> for the battery booster?
21:08 < ThomasEgi> for the cap.
21:08 < ThomasEgi> booster.. all thesame
21:08 < ThomasEgi> you can load those with hundrets of amps and they'll hardly heat up.
21:09 < ThomasEgi> i mean even is you have 100Amps going over it. that makes .3 volts. or 30 watts
21:10 < ThomasEgi> and.. if you just do start/stop with that things.. you totaly won't get up to that average.. a short peak here, a short peak there. that's it.
21:11 < ThomasEgi> maxwell has ultracaps designed for regenarative braking systems with very low ESR
21:11 < ThomasEgi> http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/products/k2-series
21:12 < ThomasEgi> pretty much exactly what's on sale on ebay
21:14 < fenn> hmm maybe i'll sell small regenerative braking modules
21:14 < ThomasEgi> rated over 1000000 duty cycles. with currents rating from 600 A peak upwards
21:14 < fenn> these are all huge things for trains and buses
21:14 < ThomasEgi> short circuit current.. up to 9kA
21:15  * ThomasEgi drools
21:15 < fenn> you could suspend some frogs
21:16 < fenn> diamagnetic levitation: ► 0:09► 0:09
21:16 < fenn> www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E
21:17 < fenn> i wish google had a "dont fuck with my urls" mode
21:19 < fenn> i wonder how that quantum loop flux pinning is coming long
21:20 < ThomasEgi> so many thing i don't worry bout. because it is of no pratical relevance yet and up to reasearchers
21:21 < fenn> just trying to think of what to do with 9kA
21:21 < fenn> it's not quite enough to shrink coins
21:22 < fenn> http://benkrasnow.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-should-i-build-with-six.html
21:22 < fenn> spot welder seems to be the consensus
21:23 < ThomasEgi> you shouldn't short those caps anyway.
21:23 < ThomasEgi> if you need more current just connect in parallel
21:24 < fenn> no spot welder? how am i gonna connect my batteries :P
21:24 < fenn> hm
21:24 < fenn> Unit Price: $5.50
21:24 < fenn> Special Pricing Buy 6  for  $500.00 each
21:24 < fenn> is that some kind of joke
21:26 < fenn> electronic goldmine sure has gotten expensive
21:28 < ThomasEgi> so did gold
21:29 < fenn> maybe it's dollars that went down
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21:30 < ThomasEgi> with the FED printing money like crazy?... naaah impossible </irony>
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22:11 < Maluseth> know any sources of alternate home energy>
22:11 < Maluseth> damn the electricity bills
22:11 < Maluseth> sigh
22:11 < Maluseth> and gas too
22:11 < Maluseth> wind turbines and solar wont do
22:12 < Maluseth> is there something greatttter
22:15 < fenn> cold fusion
22:16 < fenn> high altitude kites
22:17 < fenn> wood gasifier
22:17 < fenn> read up my boy
22:17 < fenn> oh, and zeolite apparently
22:18  * fenn sleeps
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23:43 < jrayhawk> firewood is usually cheaper than electrical heating, and sometimes cheaper than natural gas, if that helps
--- Log closed Sat Nov 10 00:00:07 2012