--- Log opened Sun Nov 11 00:00:08 2012
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04:15 < thesnark> hey kanzure
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07:10 < irctc927> hihi
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07:13 < loanshark> hey, anyone know the effects of using nootropics with anti-depressants?
07:13 < loanshark> namelybipropion
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09:49 < irctc154> hello?
09:49 < irctc154> anyone alive?
09:49 -!- irctc154 is now known as loanshark
09:51 < docl> yeah
09:52 < docl> I'm not a nootropics expert though
10:04 < foucist> loanshark: well depending on the nootropic stack you go with, you might be getting extra choline, so i guess you could check to see if bipropion plays nice .. find out what it does in the brain, what mechanism is it operating on, and do any of the nootropics disagree with that mechanism?
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11:01 < fenn> loanshark: bupropion affects norepinephrine/dopamine reuptake so in effect it's similar to amphetamines which are widely used in combination without too many reports of side effects
11:02 < fenn> i would be more worried about combining nootropics with heart medicine as they often act via blood flow
11:06 < fenn> it is sort of an overly broad category though, better to investigate specific combinations
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11:54 < docl> http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/hyperfine/nbt0200168.pdf
11:55 < docl> Trehalose expression can be triggered in human cells with an engineered adenovirus
11:55 < docl> I wonder why nobody has proposed this for cryonics?
11:56 < docl> Ben Best has written about trehalose on his vitrification page. http://www.benbest.com/cryonics/vitrify.html#sugars
11:57 < fenn> trehalose is generally useful for counteracting aging as well
11:57 < docl> The adenovirus trick uses two genes from e. coli to get cells to produce their own trehalose (I think from glucose)
11:58 < fenn> there aren't any existing gene therapies for cryonics preparation are there?
11:58 < docl> glucose can enter cells relatively quickly because all cells have transport proteins to facilitate it
11:58 < docl> not that I'm aware of :(
11:59 < fenn> it's a big legal problem just to get any gene therapy approved for any purpose at all, even neglecting the fact that by medical standards the treatment isn't doing any good
12:00 < fenn> if the patient is going to be dead anyway
12:00 < docl> yeah
12:01 < docl> but this could impact organ transplant stuff too.
12:01 < fenn> certainly
12:01 < AdrianG> there are some gene therapies already approved
12:01 < AdrianG> are they any morex epensive than drugs?
12:01 < fenn> er, you tell me
12:03 < AdrianG> i think cheaper approval than drugs, due to small trials?
12:03 < AdrianG> they are niche products
12:03 < AdrianG> the problem with gene therapies, they'll end up like vaccines
12:03 < AdrianG> amazing for 99.999%
12:03 < AdrianG> and vaccine court or gene therapy court for the unlucky ones
12:07 < fenn> see this is why i don't believe in money
12:08 < fenn> you can strap yourself to this rocket booster. the fuel costs twenty bucks but you might wipe out a small town so you have to pay ten million in insurance
12:08 < fenn> there's nothing wrong with the rocket though
12:09 < AdrianG> you mean you dont believe in liability
12:09 < AdrianG> not money
12:09 < fenn> if liability significantly affects the price of *everything* then what's the difference
12:10 < fenn> consider the defense department budget a liability
12:10 < fenn> er, insurance i mean
12:10 < AdrianG> so i guess you are ok with me accidentally blowing up your house
12:10 < fenn> you wouldn't be able to blow up my house if it werent for stupid building codes
12:11 < fenn> anyway, shit happens all the time, just look at the latest hurricane
12:11 < AdrianG> so would you be ok with it
12:11 < fenn> hurricane insurance doesn't keep you from losing everything
12:11 < AdrianG> and just swallow sadness
12:11 < AdrianG> or sue me?
12:12 < fenn> there's a bit of a difference with gene therapy
12:12 < AdrianG> notrly
12:12 < fenn> you need the treatment, and you can decide whether to take it or not
12:12 < fenn> it's not like mad scientists are running around injecting people with viruses
12:12 < AdrianG> ok
12:13 < AdrianG> translation for cognitively challenged
12:13 < AdrianG> scenario: I am paving your driveway.
12:13 < Mariu> lol
12:13 < AdrianG> my equipment blows up, i die, your house is gone
12:13 < AdrianG> you lose left leg, right arm, permanent vision loss
12:13 < AdrianG> do you just go, ooh ok kewl
12:13 < AdrianG> shit happens!
12:14 < fenn> well, you're dead, not going to get anything from you
12:14 < AdrianG> you can sue dead ppl.
12:14 < AdrianG> they still have an estate.
12:14 < fenn> really? i didn't know that
12:14 < AdrianG> "i die" is to take out the emotional part
12:14 < AdrianG> liek, he doesnt need all that money! he's dead!
12:15 < fenn> true
12:15 < fenn> but think of all the driveways that have been paved with your fusion driveway paver
12:15 < fenn> is it worth the cost to society to ban them for the sake of one idiot?
12:16 < AdrianG> your opinion will change suddenly once you end up in a scenario like that
12:16 < AdrianG> i knew some highly paid contractor who was like "fuck this nanny state" until he lost both legs in a motorcycle accident
12:16 < fenn> undoubtedly, selfishness is a fitness enhancing cognitive bias
12:17 < AdrianG> then he suddenly grew a different opinion overnight
12:17 < AdrianG> well, not overnight, he was in coma for liek a couple of days
12:17 < AdrianG> and the concept of liability is a deeply entrenched concept in  common law
12:17 < fenn> and the decided motorcycles should be made illegal?
12:17 < AdrianG> its not changing any time soon.
12:18 < AdrianG> fenn, no, decided the nanny state is gud, and should pay all his expensive medical bills
12:18 < AdrianG> and pension etc
12:18 < fenn> oh i see
12:18 < fenn> my point is the reason medical bills are expensive in the first place is all the liability insurance
12:19 < AdrianG> nope
12:19 < AdrianG> 1) medical technology is expensive
12:19 < AdrianG> 2) new drugs are expensive
12:19 < fenn> bah
12:19 < fenn> bullshit
12:19 < AdrianG> 3) doctors have a very good cartel]
12:19 < AdrianG> these are the 3 top factors
12:20 < AdrianG> probably with doctors cartel being #1
12:20 < fenn> new drugs are barely more effective than old drugs most of the time
12:20 < AdrianG> yes but they are expensive due to patent laws
12:20 < AdrianG> not liability
12:20 < AdrianG> also, depends on the drug
12:20 < AdrianG> but yes, overall drugs arent that amazing
12:20 < fenn> no, it actually costs something to market a drug, otherwise we'd have tons of pharma startups
12:20 < fenn> er, s/market/bring to market/
12:21 < fenn> 60 to 800 million depending on your source
12:21 < fenn> though they like to claim 4 billion
12:21 < AdrianG> regulatory costs are negligible to large corps
12:21 < AdrianG> its an artificial barrier to prevent smaller corps from entering the market
12:21 < fenn> i agree it's artificial
12:22 < AdrianG> its not like any regulation prevented class action lawsuits against drugmakers
12:23 < ParahSailin> bring to market meaning paying off the fda
12:24 < fenn> but nobody ever calculates the costs of not having any drug at all
12:24 < AdrianG> its not a cost.
12:24 < fenn> is dying a cost? fuck yeah it is
12:25 < ParahSailin> we should be happy that the guy who chops off your leg is willing to sell us a prosthetic
12:25 < AdrianG> not having drugs is an externality
12:25 < fenn> if it means not dying of gangrene
12:27 < fenn> anyway i'm in favor of gene therapy. it remains to be seen whether the liability cost will be higher than conventional drugs
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19:02 < Maluseth> OMG
19:02 < Maluseth> my grandma approved of 200K
19:02 < Maluseth> OMG O
19:02 < Maluseth> OMG
19:03 < Maluseth> Can someone please tell me what equipment i need to buy in order to build a micromanufacturing lab?
19:03 < yashgaroth> micromanufacturing of what
19:03 < Maluseth> To MEMS, not to Fab
19:03 < Maluseth> micro-electro-mechanical-systems
19:04 < Maluseth> i've been researching
19:04 < Maluseth> and there appears to be equipment just like the fab lab
19:04 < Maluseth> but higher in it's definition
19:04 < Maluseth> and more expensive in some cases
19:04 < Maluseth> but which areas do i need?
19:04 < ParahSailin> 200k?
19:04 < ThomasEgi> guess the equipment is not all too different from regular semiconductor stuff
19:04 < Maluseth> Yes Parah!
19:05 < ParahSailin> 200k is what?
19:05 < Maluseth> thats why i didnt take on your job!
19:05 < Maluseth> $200,000 dollars!
19:05 < ThomasEgi> that's a lot.
19:05 < ParahSailin> you didnt tell me you were rich
19:05 < Maluseth> i know!
19:05 < Maluseth> i'm not rich!
19:05 < Maluseth> my grandma is!
19:05 < ThomasEgi> and now you have 59 people asking you for funding their projects
19:05 < ParahSailin> same diff
19:05 < Maluseth> wow she really loves me YES
19:06 < yashgaroth> hello good sir, I have a business proposal that
19:06 < Maluseth> i want to learn MEMS and post my progress hereeee
19:06 < ThomasEgi> yashgaroth, ... nope.. i don't have a business proposal.. i just want some money :D
19:06 < ParahSailin> well i hope im at the top of your consideration list for business plans
19:06 < yashgaroth> hey man you don't get money without a fake business proposal
19:06 < ThomasEgi> my fake business proposal is being honest?
19:07 < yashgaroth> I'd go with nigerian prince
19:07 < Maluseth> so nobody knows about MEMS?
19:07 < Maluseth> micromanufacturing?
19:07 < ThomasEgi> ok i could tell you what i'd use it for. but i totaly don't need 200k for  buying a piece of desert, one piece of forest and then setting up geek-village there.
19:07 < yashgaroth> not one of the 3 people in here right now, but someone does maluseth
19:07 < ThomasEgi> Maluseth, i have a friend who does.
19:08 < ThomasEgi> but.. that guy's asleep atm
19:08 < Maluseth> oh
19:08 < ThomasEgi> i only have very rough knowledge about it.
19:08 < fenn> Maluseth: we have a MEMS project in progress but i personally lost interest a while ago
19:08 < fenn> Maluseth: talk to kanzure and nmz787 about it when you see them
19:08 < Maluseth> the process of micromanufacturing seems almost same as a fab lab- in their equipment uses
19:08 < Maluseth> there's 3d printers, cnc mills and stuff for this work
19:09 < Maluseth> fenn: got it
19:09 < fenn> also azonenberg has been doing some home chip fab
19:09 < Maluseth> OMG i can't believe this
19:09 < ThomasEgi> from what i recall.. you etch those structures into silicone.
19:09 < Maluseth> she's also buying me a house (80,000) in Ontario
19:09 < ThomasEgi> so.. it'd be the usual masking, exposure etc.
19:10 < yashgaroth> hey is your grandma single
19:10 < Maluseth> ...sigh she's dying...
19:10 < fenn> of what
19:10 < fenn> maybe you should work on fixing that eh
19:10 < Maluseth> she already had stroke twice... she says her time is coming
19:11 < fenn> get her some piracetam and hydergine and some magnesium supplements
19:11 < Maluseth> i have no idea where to start doing that although im doing my best
19:11 < Maluseth> shes taking everything doctor ordering... but she has anger issues
19:11 < Maluseth> and...
19:11 < ThomasEgi> Maluseth, anyway. if you have some money left after buying that lab and house and everything, drop me or fenn a note. we still need some funding for setting up a self-sustained village
19:11 < Maluseth> anyway...
19:12 < fenn> yes definitely lots of projects in the pipeline
19:12 < fenn> i'm not accustomed to having a budget, that's all
19:12 < Maluseth> i dont have much anywhere to go, so i'll definetly update my progress
19:12 < ThomasEgi> Maluseth, be glad. when my grandpa died all he did was telling me "don't get the wrong friends" ... and i was 25 when he said that.
19:13 < Maluseth> yeah... yea im grateful.
19:14 < Maluseth> i just gave her a presentation on building a fab lab, and my prospects of wanting to learn different fields of science through it-
19:14 < Maluseth> and she was like completely mesmerized by the process
19:14 < Maluseth> i didn't think she'd understand but i showed her youtube videos in the presentation cut out in 5-8 seconds
19:14 < Maluseth> so to move onto the next topic
19:14 < Maluseth> wow
19:15 < Maluseth> anyways, fab lab i can do it on a budget-
19:15 < Maluseth> but im really interested in getting these MEMS equipments
19:15 < fenn> just dont blow it all on a brand new FIB
19:15 < Maluseth> whats a FIB?
19:15 < fenn> $200k aint much in the scheme of things
19:15 < fenn> sort of like a nano laser cutter
19:16 < Maluseth> oh
19:16 < yashgaroth> focused ion beam
19:16 < fenn> it's a powerful electron microscope that can blow holes in things
19:16 < Maluseth> i really am interested in the laser additive manufacturing process now
19:16 < Maluseth> but-
19:16 < Maluseth> they could take so much money
19:16 < Maluseth> even though it eliminates the need for most stuff
19:16 < ThomasEgi> the words "powerfull" "blow holes into things" and "microscope" sorta don't really make a good combination^
19:16 < fenn> i'm biased towards the feynman approach.. when you can build something from scratch you understand it
19:17 < ThomasEgi> if i read"powerful and blow holes into things.. i am thinking of something bigger..
19:17 < Maluseth> yeah im trying to learn, i shouldn't focus on power through owning
19:17 < fenn> ThomasEgi: hey it's like 100W of power in a square nanometer, that's power!
19:17 < ThomasEgi> that's indeed extremly high power-density
19:17 < ThomasEgi> but the resulting holes are too small for my taste :D
19:18 < Maluseth> oh man what to do
19:18 < Maluseth> my heart's beating
19:19 < ThomasEgi> http://www.gagbay.com/images/2012/09/keep_calm_and_gangnam_style-139299.jpg
19:19 < ThomasEgi> that's what you should do.
19:19 < Maluseth> i made some equipment listing if anyone wants to check it out
19:19 < fenn> go run around the block
19:19 < Maluseth> so far it's what i plan on buying
19:19 < ThomasEgi> don't. buy .. anything
19:19 < ThomasEgi> wait until your mind chilled down to normal operation levels.
19:20 < ThomasEgi> then think about what to do. and then triple check that.
19:20 < fenn> yeah you really need to learn a basic semblance of how things work first
19:20 < Maluseth> im not gonna spend a penny until i have a clear motive
19:20 < Maluseth> and plan of income maybe or at least prospects of penetrating into a market
19:20 < fenn> i suggest perusing wikipedia categories
19:20 < Maluseth> i got some serious reading to do
19:21 < ThomasEgi> i suggest you take those 200k.. and buy me a candy bar.
19:21 < Maluseth> but grandma told me to give her a listing of items im planning on buying and why -
19:21 < fenn> a hafnium candy bar
19:21 < Maluseth> you'll blow up thomas
19:21 < ThomasEgi> from one candy bar?
19:21 < ThomasEgi> no way.
19:21 < Maluseth> of sugar
19:22 < ThomasEgi> why?
19:22 < Maluseth> i saw willy wonka
19:22 < ThomasEgi> you see.. i mean.. i wanted to buy 1 (in words one) candy
19:22 < Maluseth> ...:P
19:23 < ThomasEgi> if you are too excited to count on 1. you should probably just do nothing.. or maybe order a pizza or so
19:23 < ThomasEgi> and put that pizza on the list of things you bought.
19:23 < Maluseth> im gonna download magazines about micromanufacturing and try and piece out equipment listing
19:23 < ThomasEgi> reason "cause i was hungry"
19:24 < Maluseth> ...i am going to burger kings...
19:24 < Maluseth> right now. too much excitement
19:24 < Maluseth> i need a thick milk shake to clog my heart
19:24 < Maluseth> and slow it down
19:24 < Maluseth> bbl
19:25 < ThomasEgi> .... the best thing to do.. when suddenly getting hands on a lot of money... wolud be to not announce it on the internet. but hey, what do i know.
19:27 < yashgaroth> I've traced his address to 23 canada street, ontario
19:32 < fenn> 23 eh, it must be some kind of cosmological conspiracy
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20:00 < AdrianG> whos address
20:01 < thoughtcrime> piss cakes
20:01 < ParahSailin> Maluseth, i used to do mems stuff
20:01 < ParahSailin> worked in a university lab as an undergrad
20:08 < Maluseth> parah
20:08 < Maluseth> could you please give me some suggestions on
20:08 < Maluseth> what equipment to purchase to have a functional MEMS lab?
20:09 < Maluseth> with fabrication equipment meant for MEMS
20:09 < Maluseth> i see 3d printers have high definition - that can print out MEMS materials
20:09 < Maluseth> I see that there's waterjets and laser cutters that "cuts" micro stuff
20:10 < Maluseth> what else is there?
20:12 < fenn> spin coating, photolithography (masked and digital), fib, sputtering, bulk ion etching, doping oven, depends what you want to do really
20:12 < fenn> try reading jeri ellsworth's blog
20:13 < fenn> oh maybe its all just videos now
20:15 < ParahSailin> mems is crazy expensive
20:16 < fenn> chemicals cost a fair amount as well, dont forget to budget for disposal
20:17 < fenn> honestly i think it's a bit much to chew for a first project
20:17 < Maluseth> i think you are approaching a different side of mems? im looking for i think milling, laser cutting
20:17 < Maluseth> EDMing
20:17 < fenn> thats not MEMS
20:17 < Maluseth> micromanufacturing
20:17 < Maluseth> oh i see now i see the difference
20:18 < fenn> edm minimum feature size is what, 0.05 inch?
20:18 < Maluseth> 0.005 mm?
20:19 < fenn> i'm seeing 20 micron ish
20:19 < fenn> feature size and accuracy are different things, mind
20:19 < Maluseth> i guess it's what i'm after. mems process seem very complex/ but these tools i cn afford. micromanufacturing
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20:20 < fenn> EDM is pretty cool, but slow and not a lot of good practical info out there
20:20 < fenn> it's one of those "black arts" primarily due to secrecy that for whatever reason didn't happen in other manufacturing fields
20:20 < fenn> ben fleming wrote a pretty good book
20:21 < Maluseth> i need to buy tools that can cover all spectrum/angles of shaping a design, in it's automation...
20:21 < Maluseth> oh
20:21 < fenn> no such thing i'm afraid
20:22 < fenn> praps you should fund nanotech development :P
20:22 < Maluseth> im reading on these magazines from a website
20:22 < Maluseth> and lotsa tools
20:22 < Maluseth> i just cant find the price
20:23 < fenn> yeah better get used to it
20:23 < Maluseth> all have quote i have to ask for
20:23 < fenn> anything industrial, getting a price is like pulling teeth
20:23 < Maluseth> sigh
20:23 < fenn> at least alibaba started keeping track of price quotes for some things
20:23 < Maluseth> they wont even reply unless im a corporation
20:23 < fenn> so make yourself a corporation
20:24 < fenn> not a bad idea anyway
20:24 < Maluseth> yeah maybe
20:24 < Maluseth> i thought i should learn something first
20:24 < fenn> i agree
20:24 < fenn> forming a corp is pretty easy, i think you can even do it online now
20:25 < fenn> then a letter shows up and you sign it and send it back
20:25 < Maluseth> yeah
20:26 < Maluseth> i saw these tools for precision workshops (making parts for watches)
20:26 < Maluseth> all is manual and not computer automated by CAD
20:26 < Maluseth> and cost 3000 or so per machine
20:26 < fenn> sort of like photolithography right?
20:27 < Maluseth> all tabletop size
20:27 < Maluseth> no, i'll show you sec
20:27 < ParahSailin_> not really anything cash flow positive that you could do in a small mems lab
20:27 < fenn> prints a mask on a sheet of brass and etches it?
20:27 < fenn> ParahSailin_: the corporation is a formality that makes it useful to get anything done
20:27 < Maluseth> http://www.cowells.com/
20:28 < Maluseth> im looking for something like this but by computer contolled --- so i can work w/ cad
20:28 < fenn> hum okay
20:28 < ParahSailin_> not saying that, im just advising caution in blowing his grandma's inheritance
20:29 < Maluseth> no this is an allowance - she got much much more
20:29 < ThomasEgi> Maluseth, get a 3 or 4 axis nanometer table?
20:29 < fenn> try joining #emc and see if anyone has recommendations for very small cnc machines
20:29 < ThomasEgi> if you ask why.. might be useful, but mainly just for fun
20:29 < Maluseth> egi i dont know what that is i will look into it thank you
20:29 < Maluseth> fenn: ok
20:30 < ThomasEgi> Maluseth, like x-y tables driven by piezo elements.
20:30 < ThomasEgi> not cheap. but very precise.. oh and. mechanical manufacturing has limits.
20:31 < fenn> actually you can cnc lap things to sub-nanometer precision, whatever that means
20:31 < ThomasEgi> at some point stuff like the cristals on your grinding tools or the edges of your knives are simply too unprecise for building any more precise parts.
20:31 < ThomasEgi> yeah but.. not with a lathe and mill
20:31 < fenn> well, diamond turning lathe maybe
20:31 < fenn> but that's millions of dollars
20:33  * fenn goes back to the packing of stuffs
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20:34 < ThomasEgi> sry router reconnected. did i miss anything?
20:34 < ThomasEgi> after my last post
20:34 < Maluseth> no
20:34 < Maluseth> not really
20:35 < Maluseth> bbl
20:35 < ThomasEgi> if you look for money payback. you definetly want to read about litography. it simply scales well and you can produce many parts in one step
20:36 < ParahSailin_> go straight to opencmos then
20:36 < Maluseth> so many arrays
20:37 < ThomasEgi> indeed. i'd love to see someone here manufacture custom cmos stuff.
20:37 < Maluseth> i will list down everything everyone says and will carefully read about it
20:37 < Maluseth> i hope i;ll eventually make a right decision
20:37 < ThomasEgi> mems and cmos. on one chip.
20:37 < ThomasEgi> that be pretty awesome.
20:37 < ThomasEgi> i mean.. building a multi-elecrtode array for a whole nerve-bundle.
20:38 < ThomasEgi> and put all the circuits on the same piece of silicone on the other side.
20:38 < ThomasEgi> and only have a high speed serial interface. totaly for it.
20:38 < ThomasEgi> probably not something you'll be able to produce just like that.
20:40 < fenn> lots of electronics hobbyists would pay for an open source FPGA, even a crappy one
20:41 < fenn> you'd need to outsource manufacturing eventually
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23:23 < kanzure> AAAAAHHHHHH
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23:28 < nmz787> kanzure!
23:29 < kanzure> fenn: it would be cool if you were around when i return
23:39 < kanzure> ~.
23:39 < kanzure> .
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 12 00:00:09 2012