--- Log opened Tue Nov 13 00:00:11 2012
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04:55 < Maluseth1> I have spent days now searching for this "universal" machine for making precision parts, 'micromachining.' Instead purchasing different machines at 20k to 50k, I thought why not buy a 200k to 300k machine that does it all?
04:55 < Maluseth1> but such thing does not exist.
04:56 < ThomasEgi> srsly.. what did you expect :D
04:56 < Maluseth1> if you were to pick 2 machines that could fundamentally cover all axis and angles -
04:56 < Maluseth1> which machines would they be?
04:56 < Maluseth1> lathe and mills?
04:56 < ThomasEgi> all??
04:56 < ThomasEgi> all are a lot of degrees of freedom
04:56 < Maluseth1> specifically then
04:56 < Maluseth1> gears. and outer shells.
04:57 < Maluseth1> and holes
04:57 < Maluseth1> so thats... lathe = gears
04:57 < ThomasEgi> doubt you can get a one-size-fits all machine
04:57 < Maluseth1> outer shell shaping = 5 axis machine
04:57 < Maluseth1> holes = drills ?:
04:57 < ThomasEgi> you can mill gears on a 5 axis machine just fine.
04:58 < ThomasEgi> you can also get a 5axis and a rotary table
04:58 < ThomasEgi> but those are not really for micro-mechanics
04:58 < Maluseth1> there seems to be 5 axis machines for precision manufacturing
04:58 < ThomasEgi> yeah but... precision is to be defined
04:58 < Maluseth1> so like i imagined, 5 axis would be the ultimate choice.
04:59 < Maluseth1> been reading up on swiss-type lathes.
04:59 < ThomasEgi> there's a big difference between precision in regular machines, micromachines, and stuff like nano structures
04:59 < Maluseth1> but this does long screw type of work and gears.
04:59 < Maluseth1> yes definitely
04:59 < Maluseth1> when they say precision, i have to read up on it carefully
05:00 < ThomasEgi> you can't cover all with just one machine.
05:00 < Maluseth1> see how "precise it really can go."
05:00 < Maluseth1> yes
05:00 < Maluseth1> but starting with a 5 axis would be a safe bet no?
05:00 < Maluseth1> i gotta try and find something universal...
05:00 < Maluseth1> or things that have lots of mod-capable....
05:00 < ThomasEgi> for bigger parts, a 5 axis machine sure is a sweet toy. but you probably want to build furniture with it rather than clockworks
05:01 < Maluseth1> yes
05:01 < Maluseth1> clockworks are mostly gears - and these are suitable for swiss-style lathes
05:01 < Maluseth1> 2d work almost.
05:01 < Maluseth1> gears.
05:01 < Maluseth1> so that's what it looked like on the videos...
05:01 < Maluseth1> i am dazed.
05:02 < Maluseth1> i've gone crazy, there are so many manufacturers,
05:02 < Maluseth1> so many tools
05:02 < Maluseth1> i didn't think there'd be this many
05:02 < ThomasEgi> there are countless.
05:02 < Maluseth1> infinite
05:02 < ThomasEgi> for each range of precision.
05:02 < Maluseth1> it's a universe.
05:02 < Maluseth1> i am tired now
05:02 < ThomasEgi> the question is. what do you want to build
05:02 < ThomasEgi> and then. you can get the right tools for that.
05:03 < Maluseth1> my goal is i guess making precise machines for medical stuff
05:03 < ThomasEgi> and there are wolrds between a the gear of a wristwatch, and MEMS stuff
05:03 < Maluseth1> something between wristwatch parts and MEMS stuff
05:03 < Maluseth1> in the scale of realm (size)
05:04 < Maluseth1> so that's quite small
05:04 < Maluseth1> ok
05:04 < Maluseth1> i will keep on looking
05:04 < ThomasEgi> so.. in the range of single-digit cm in maximum size. and very high resolution?
05:04 < Maluseth1> i wish someone could just give me the answer.
05:05 < Maluseth1> mm i would say,
05:05 < Maluseth1> or microm
05:05 < Maluseth1> Um
05:05 < ThomasEgi> hm.. piezo hexapod might be of interest for you
05:05 < Maluseth1> i just saw that on an ad
05:05 < Maluseth1> that portable looking thing
05:05 < Maluseth1> is it computer numerical controlled?
05:06 < ThomasEgi> well you can controll it using analog potentiometers too :D
05:06 < ThomasEgi> but they all come with computer controlls
05:07 < Maluseth1> but this is more like MEMS you stack things in layers
05:07 < Maluseth1> i am hoping something like rapid prototyping
05:07 < Maluseth1> milling to be specific
05:07 < Maluseth1> hmm
05:07 < Maluseth1> back to those universal centers
05:08 < Maluseth1> i will find
05:08 < Maluseth1> thank you for your suggestions...........
05:08 < ThomasEgi> there's laser sintering
05:08 < ThomasEgi> which is pretty precise too.
05:09 < Maluseth1> lasers yes
05:09 < Maluseth1> always precise
05:09 < Maluseth1> right ok
05:09 < ThomasEgi> but milling and rapid protoyping usualy are 2 different things :d
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05:10 < Maluseth1> laser sintering, is this LAM ? additive manufacturing?
05:10 < ThomasEgi> not very experienced with that.
05:10 < Maluseth1> i thought they aren't out yet by commercially the machines
05:11 < ThomasEgi> there definetly are laser sintering for metals
05:12 < ThomasEgi> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_sintering
05:12 < Maluseth1> this is incredibly difficult. one wrong move and it will be many years before i can re-begin
05:13 < Maluseth1> SLS
05:13 < Maluseth1> got it
05:13 < Maluseth1> it looks amazing
05:14 < ThomasEgi> not sure bout precision and surface properties tho
05:14 < ThomasEgi> but. definetly a worth a look
05:14 < Maluseth1> how much would they cost though
05:14 < Maluseth1> hope it's affordable
05:14 < ThomasEgi> affordable is a question on how much money you have
05:14 < ThomasEgi> those things wont be cheap
05:14 < ThomasEgi> neither on purchase, nor on operation
05:15 < Maluseth1> i believe 150k is possible
05:15 < Maluseth1> maybe even more
05:16 < Maluseth1> at 200k to 250, even 300k, but they must be universal
05:16 < Maluseth1> in such a way that it pretty much can shape anything,
05:16 < Maluseth1> and no other tools (or just some lesser costly tools) required
05:16 < ThomasEgi> there's no such thing as "truly universal"
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05:17 < ThomasEgi> laser sintering is as universal as it can get
05:17 < ThomasEgi> it works wtih many materials and allows you to build very complex things. but depending on what you want to do, other tools might be a lot cheaper
05:17 < Maluseth1> maybe i should just get a precision 3d printer and use the machine shop services
05:17 < Maluseth1> for metallic manufacture.... sigh
05:18 < Maluseth1> i can't believe SLS is real
05:18 < Maluseth1> amazing info
05:18 < Maluseth1> thank you
05:18 < ThomasEgi> it got poor resolution tho
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05:19 < ThomasEgi> DMLS exists too. but my guess is, that it's more expensive
05:20 < Maluseth1> wow
05:20 < Maluseth1> ok
05:21 < ThomasEgi> again.. same drawbacks on surface quality and stuff
05:21 < Maluseth1> then there are machines for surface finishing
05:22 < Maluseth1> at least the shapes are formed with rapid prototyping -like universal way
05:22 < Maluseth1> that just makes everything simpler if not simple
05:23 < Maluseth1> yes dmls makes 20 to 40 microns
05:23 < Maluseth1> thats small
05:23 < Maluseth1> precise
05:25 < Maluseth1> versal dmls machine
05:25 < Maluseth1> oops
05:25 < Maluseth1> typo
05:25 < ThomasEgi> that's like.. the size of a boulder comparet to MEMS tho
05:26 < ThomasEgi> http://www.bacteria-world.com/mems-hinge.htm
05:26 < Maluseth1> could there be machines so precise that goes into the realm of mems w/lasers
05:28 < Maluseth1> wow couldnt sleep at all
05:28 < Maluseth1> hope i'll find the answer i hope dmls is ===
05:28 < Maluseth1> in the range of purchase
05:29 < ThomasEgi> lasers are cool but they have limits,too.
05:29 < Maluseth1> 600k + it seems
05:29 < ThomasEgi> was about so say..
05:29 < ThomasEgi> it's probably a lot cheaper to just ask a protoyping service to do the parts
05:30 < ThomasEgi> cause unless you operate those machines 24/7 they won't pay off
05:30 < Maluseth1> yeah
05:30 < Maluseth1> what i was thinking so a precise 3d printing machine for prototypes
05:31 < Maluseth1> best tangible building
05:31 < Maluseth1> blocks
05:31 < Maluseth1> i can touch n see
05:31 < ThomasEgi> 3d printing what material?
05:31 < Maluseth1> plastic filaments of course
05:31 < Maluseth1> but enough to visualize
05:31 < ThomasEgi> so. just a regular 3d printer?
05:31 < Maluseth1> and send over specs to services
05:32 < Maluseth1> no high definition printer in 3d
05:32 < Maluseth1> very high definition
05:32 < ThomasEgi> filament printing has limits
05:32 < ThomasEgi> at some point there's no way around sintering
05:33 < ThomasEgi> developing an open-source laser-sinter machine would be pretty cool tho
05:33 < Maluseth1> yes but what i saw, they can print up to parts size of a... dot
05:33 < Maluseth1> yeah sintering seems to be the singularity of all manufacturing process
05:34 < Maluseth1> about the money.... sigh
05:34 < ThomasEgi> well precision comes at a price
05:37 < Maluseth1> yes thank you so much for this
05:37 < Maluseth1> information
05:37 < ThomasEgi> just.. stay out of the mm range
05:37 < Maluseth1> now i can make a step at least
05:37 < ThomasEgi> either go bigger. or smaller^
05:37 < ThomasEgi> and if you have to produce parts in that size range. ask some prototyping service.
05:37 < Maluseth1> yes i think i must go bigger (cause it's cheaper)
05:38 < ThomasEgi> if you go smaller it becomes cheaper,too.
05:38 < ThomasEgi> going away from mechanical manufactoring
05:38 < Maluseth1> really? but not CNC right-
05:38 < Maluseth1> yes i thought so
05:38 < Maluseth1> somekind of lithography technique or something
05:38 < Maluseth1> manual
05:39 < ThomasEgi> well lithography is not so manual
05:39 < Maluseth1> i dont know what im talking about
05:39 < Maluseth1> hahaha
05:39 < ThomasEgi> it does involve more process steps.
05:39 < Maluseth1> i get it though
05:39 < ThomasEgi> but it can be done at a budget
05:39 < ThomasEgi> the masks used for lithography, are of course, engineered on a compter
05:39 < ThomasEgi> printed out, minified etc.
05:40 < Maluseth1> so far HD 3d printer + just average fabrication tools for bigger objects.
05:40 < Maluseth1> i see
05:40 < ThomasEgi> really doubt the printer would pay off
05:40 < ThomasEgi> unless you produce in big numbers
05:40 < ThomasEgi> which.. i don't think you will.
05:40 < chris_99> you can avoid masks using stereolithography, if you're making 3D objects
05:41 < Maluseth1> what the hello
05:41 < Maluseth1> ok
05:41 < Maluseth1> incredible
05:41 < Maluseth1> and incredibly complex
05:42 < chris_99> gives a lot higher res than filament though
05:42 < ThomasEgi> still.. comparebly simple
05:44 < Maluseth1> ok back to planning.
05:44 < Maluseth1> my goal is biomedical invention of somesort
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05:45 < ThomasEgi> hm. there's also multi jet modelling
05:46 < ThomasEgi> they are a bit like inkjet plotters for 3d.
05:46 < ThomasEgi> they are more of the desktop-version of a 3d printer.
05:47 < ThomasEgi> when doing biomedical stuff. you not only have to take care about precision. but also the material itself, biocompatibility, coating it etc.
05:48 < ThomasEgi> so.. you probably want to at some coating tools to your list. to do parylene and teflon coating, maybe metallic coatings,too.
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05:57 < Maluseth1> yes i read palladium is biocompatible
05:57 < Maluseth1> w/ out any allergic reactions
05:57 < Maluseth1> or rejection among few other synthetic materals
05:58 < Maluseth1> there appears to be moulds making with sand in dmls
05:58 < Maluseth1> i wonder if its cheaper
06:02 < ThomasEgi> you.. probably want to step back and look at what you really need again.
06:02 < ThomasEgi> or rather. what you plan to develop
06:02 < ThomasEgi> and then look for the tools
06:02 < ThomasEgi> in any case. get a sandwich toaster.
06:03 < ThomasEgi> those things are awesome
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06:35 < ThomasEgi> Maluseth1, in case you are still wide awake http://objet.com/3d-printers
06:36 < ThomasEgi> they offer material for producing parts with certain medical compatibility
06:39 < ThomasEgi> their desktop version goes for 20k
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06:43 < ThomasEgi> their object30 pro, goes for bout 43k
06:43 < chris_99> bargain
06:43 < ThomasEgi> indeed
06:43 < ThomasEgi> especially as the 30pro can print 7 materials
06:44 < ThomasEgi> amongst them, transparent and high-temperature resistant. so you can print vacum-forms with it
06:44 < ThomasEgi> and.. that's something that might even pay off.
06:51 < ThomasEgi> that thing's pretty sweet actually. you could print molds for parts ,too.
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07:05 < kanzure> http://diybioeurope.eventbrite.com
07:06 < kanzure> http://www.diybio.eu/diybio-europe-kick-off-meeting-1st-dec-paris/
07:14 < ThomasEgi> those multimaterial printers are pretty impressive
07:15 < chris_99> they could even print glass i think?!
07:16 < ThomasEgi> transparent materials yes. glass no
07:17 < chris_99> yeah maybe that one can't but - http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/computing-components/peripherals/3d-printers-can-now-print-in-glass-638636
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07:19 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, doesn't look too impressive tho
07:20 < ThomasEgi> i wonder if they can get the crystal-clear surface,too.
07:20 < ThomasEgi> without manual polishing
07:20 < chris_99> yeah
07:23 < chido> kanzure: do you know of anyone from here headed there?
07:23 < kanzure> nope
07:23 < kanzure> i mean, i don't know who's going
07:32 < ThomasEgi> hm. there's a direct train to paris.. running from a city close to mine.
07:33 < ThomasEgi> probably won't attend tho
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07:44 < archels> Brain energy metabolism and blood flow differences in healthy aging
07:44 < archels> spot the oxymoron.
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09:13 < kanzure> yashgaroth: have you stalked "doug wilson"?
09:19 < nmz787> kanzure, how was the cabin?
09:20 < nmz787> so I didn't make it past the second google interview
09:20 < nmz787> i thought I did pretty decent, but I knew afterwards there were some mistake
09:20 < nmz787> but they were pretty minimal I thought
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09:24 < kanzure> cabin was interesting
09:24 < kanzure> what were the google interview questions this time?
09:26 < nmz787> implement memcopy in c
09:26 < nmz787> implement memmove (memcopy with a check for overlapping data bounds)
09:26 < nmz787> implement in python a function that increments a number that is stored as a string
09:29 < kanzure> int(number_stored_as_string)+1
09:30 < nmz787> then you have to cast it back
09:30 < kanzure> str(int(number_you_stored_as_string)+1))
09:30 < nmz787> i also offered an if/then tree checking just the last char, then setting it back to the next value, except in case of 9
09:30 < kanzure> also i bet they would be a douche about it and make the number have commas, so you'd have to use the number formatting functions
09:30 < nmz787> oh actually you can't cast to int,
09:31 < nmz787> because they said it was for BIG integers
09:31 < nmz787> i.e. bigger than int could store
09:31 < nmz787> no commas decimals, only whole nums
09:31 < kanzure> seems to work to me.. int(str(2 ** 10000))
09:32 < nmz787> yeah but for a number that's longer than int can hol?
09:32 < nmz787> hold?
09:32 < nmz787> so anyway I said the if/then 0-9 cases would be less operations than the casting
09:32 < nmz787> and went that route
09:33 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, python automatically handles big ints
09:34 < nmz787> hmm, well google said they wanted me to use strings with big ints
09:34 < ThomasEgi> so.. kanzure's sollution will totaly work. if they told you something else... then well. tell them to eat their friggin questions..
09:34 < nmz787> 'imagine you were making a library to handle really big numbers using strings to store them in, how would you add 1 to a number you've stored with this library?'
09:35 < ThomasEgi> in worst case.. install scipy. i think they allow for numbers up to infinite
09:35 < nmz787> heh
09:35 < nmz787> well anyway i didn't make it
09:35 < nmz787> prob because i didnt tell them to use scipy
09:36 < kanzure> interviewers really hate it when you tell them the answer is to use a standard library
09:36 < kanzure> nevermind that a standard memcopy is going to be thousands of times better than whatever crap you come up with in 5min
09:37 < nmz787> yeah
09:37 < ThomasEgi> just checked. python's interpreter automatically switches over to another backend when numbers grow big. there's no integer limit
09:37 < nmz787> i just had a for loop depp copying each data block
09:37 < ThomasEgi> so.. you can just do.. yournumber +=1 #bitch please
09:37 < nmz787> but i realized after that i didnt pass in a pointer so it wouldn't have worked
09:37 < kanzure> "#bitch please" is not pep8 compliant :o
09:37 < nmz787> but it was mostly there
09:38 < nmz787> first line was to check if the dest was =0
09:38 < nmz787> but again i forgot the & there
09:38 < nmz787> huh
09:38 < nmz787> well
09:38 < nmz787> i guess if they know that, then i really screwed that up
09:39 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, prefer triple quotes?
09:39 < kanzure> pep8 just says something about including a space after the '#' symbol
09:39 < ThomasEgi> those are just recommendations anyway
09:41 < ThomasEgi> looks like python's limit for long integers is 4,294,967,295 digits.
09:42 < ThomasEgi> 4.. billion... forking.. digits. that's bout as many digits as i have bytes in my RAM.
09:43 < ThomasEgi> where did you apply for anyway?
09:43 < ParahSail1n> is the backend for that GMP?
09:44 < ThomasEgi> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0237/
09:44 < nmz787> they contacted me, it was for site reliability
09:44 < nmz787> so bug fixin
09:44 < ParahSail1n> oh no, that wouldnt be license compatible
09:44 < nmz787> i'd rather be doing lithography or cloning, but hey I need a job
09:52 < kanzure> hm. the quadcore w520 laptops seem to support 32 GB RAM.
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10:42 < ParahSail1n> overheard in DIYBio list "I'm interested in culturing some soil bacteria and screening it for the ability to break down lipofuscin (this is not my idea originally, you may have read of it being proposed by Aubrey de Grey - but as far as I can tell nobody has actually carried out the experiment)."
10:42 < ParahSail1n> facepalm
10:43 < ParahSail1n> i guess i should have published something in the journal of negative results in biomedicine
10:44 < kanzure> iirc there was also some longecity/imminst soil study that was done too
10:45 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: what exactly did you do?
10:45 < nmz787> its weird that you would choose soil bacteria though
10:46 < ParahSail1n> well for a while i was a SENS grad student
10:46 < nmz787> the soil bacteria are a good start for enzyme mining, but they seem unlikely to be directly beneficial
10:46 < nmz787> do we have longnow folks in here?
10:47 < ParahSail1n> i tried in wastewater treatment plant activated sludge
10:47 < kanzure> i used to be into the longnow stuff
10:48 < kanzure> longnow/brand was the reason i used to write all my dates in 02006 format until i realized i was lame.
10:49 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: yeah i know your SENS background, i just haven't heard about your involvement in a lipofuscin project or the results or what happened
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11:03 < nmz787> kanzure: do you know john bishop http://norsam.com/about-us.html
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13:28 < kanzure> 13:28 <+iimarckus> kanzure: do you have to manually approve wiki accounts?
13:28 < kanzure> jrayhawk: do i have to type addaccess for each new user?
13:29 < jrayhawk> No, the wiki is 0666
13:29 < kanzure> what about haxwiki?
13:29 < jrayhawk> oh, yeah, unless you want to pinyconfig haxwiki core.sharedrepository 0666
13:30 < jrayhawk> and rebuildrepo haxwiki since apparently i haven't updated piny on there for a while
13:31 < kanzure> and then rebuildre-- ok yeah
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13:57 < nmz787> kanzure: hey so do you know that dude?
14:08 < kanzure> nmz787: nope
14:48 < kanzure> speaking of stewart brand.. i just got an email he blasted out about some people that are going around fixing broken clock towers
14:48 < kanzure> "A few years ago these underground hackers and artists became infamous when one morning the clock at the Panthéon, that had not worked in years, began chiming.  There have been 15 such restorations done without permission."
14:48 < kanzure> "The secretive members of the Paris Urban eXperiment, known internally as "The UX", have spent the last 30 years surreptitiously probing into the vast hidden world under the city --- and improving it."
15:00 < nmz787> fenn: maybe there could be a bio CO2 capture system AKA the desert zeolite water collector using PEI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylenimine#CO2_capture
15:01 < nmz787> fenn: well doesn't have to be bio*
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15:38 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, wish there'd be more efficient ways to collect H2O
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16:30 < kanzure> why aren't charities run on bitcoins? you could prove that your bitcoins are going to the exact things that you earmarked them for.
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16:54 < AdrianG> because charities arent really about helping anyone
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17:04 < ThomasEgi> AdrianG, thank you for helping us help you help us all.
17:08 < streety> What would be the advantage of that? It's all just accounting, unless some bitcoins are different to other bitcoins.
17:08 < AdrianG> ThomasEgi, pls send a cheque. i am not a charity.
17:09 < kanzure> streety: some people donate to charities expecting the money to go to a certain thing
17:09 < AdrianG> fools
17:09 < ThomasEgi> i'd even send you 2cent for that wisdom above. but that'd be uneconomical due to the banks
17:10 < AdrianG> orly
17:10 < ThomasEgi> charity.. is mostly psycological treatment, with a tad of self-sustainment, a lot of paperworks, and, more often than not, too little effect.
17:10 < ThomasEgi> money gets donated, nice pictures for websites are taken. real help... usualy nowhere to be found outside the field of vision of the cameras.
17:11 < streety> This I know, but I still don't see the advantage. They could just route other bitcoins to other causes they would ordinarily have given to my requested cause
17:11 < ThomasEgi> you see.. if you could trace the money.. you.d see that most gets wasted. so why saw of the branch you'r sitting on?
17:14 < kanzure> the idea is that if you have a more effective charity model, you could theoretically eat up the donations that are usually going to all the other shitty charities
17:16 < kanzure> throwing millions of dollars at random, unrelated grants to "cure cancer" isn't necessarily going to build an informed research strategy (and neither will crowdsourcing, for that matter)
17:19 < ThomasEgi> if throwing around millions would do any good... the Federal Reserve would be like mother theresa. we all know... they'r not.
17:21 < streety> From a talk I attended recently James Watson seems to be of a similar opinion, better to throw cash at a small number of high risk high reward projects/investigators
17:22 < streety> Though that's probably not such a good appeal to authority, he largely came across and cross and a little bit crazy
17:23 < kanzure> streety: so you disagree with the approach here? http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2010/scott-johnson-myelin-repair-foundation/
17:26 < streety> taking a look now
17:31 < kanzure> aha there's the number. "in 2009 nearly $304 billion was given to nonprofits" http://fundingchangeconsulting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Philanthropy-in-the-United-States.updated.pdf
17:32 < kanzure> so anyway, what if you could buy the same amount of charity for only $152 billion?
17:36 < ThomasEgi> so they got 300billion.. and.. what did they do with it?
17:39 < kanzure> are you asking me, or in general, or what?
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17:42 < streety> kanzure, there were lots of points I'm not entirely sure hold together. Having said that I agree with the approach
17:43 < streety> I think you need more than that though, the approach is incremental rather than transformative in terms of the scientific output
17:44 < kanzure> many many charitable organizations need a small amount of engineering to solve their missions
17:44 < kanzure> you don't need a revolution in fucking science to make a cheaper malaria cure patent
17:44 < kanzure> right?
17:45 < kanzure> are you saying that charity must necessarily be transformative, rather than incremental?
17:45 < streety> you don't need very much at all for a patent of any sort
17:45 < streety> an actual cure though? Perhaps you do
17:46 < streety> not at all, a charity can do whatever it wants
17:46 < kanzure> well, my comment was a combination of (1) anger that charities pay patent licensing fees or that they lease out their patents and make money that way, and (2) just an example that doesn't require transformative output
17:46 < kanzure> ok
17:48 < kanzure> but yes, buying "a unit of transformative output" with bitcoins is much more murky to envision than "buying a centrifuge for SENS' latest research project"
17:48 < kanzure> *buying a centrifuge... with bitcoins
17:48 < streety> at the moment it seems a defendable patent does help with getting a treatment to market, it's probably better that it be with a charity focusing on treatment than with most other entities
17:51 < kanzure> i bet charities are so inefficient because nobody has bothered to sit down and design something better
17:52 < streety> skipping back to a point earlier when you say "cure cancer" what exactly do you mean?
17:52 < kanzure> they don't really have the same pressure to be efficient like businesses that are competing one-to-one except in the vague sense that they compete for donations (but the only way they would fail to raise the same amount of money is related to bad publicity, not so much product/output)
17:52 < streety> efficiency is going to rather, largely because of the people running them
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17:53 < kanzure> streety: it's well known among researchers that you don't "cure cancer". cancer is far too vague of a word and refers to many different conditions.
17:53 < streety> indeed, I would argue it is even more complicated than that
17:54 < streety> even for a narrowly defined cancer the idea of a cure is vague
17:54 < kanzure> despite that fact, there are still charities that accept donations in the name of "curing cancer"
17:54 < kanzure> does that answer your question?
17:54 < AdrianG> it does not.
17:56 < streety> partly, I was curious at what stringency of cure achieved you would consider good value for money to be received
17:56 < streety> where "you" is the channel participants in general
17:58 < kanzure> personally i would probably not donate under most reasonable circumstances (there are unreasonable circumstances where i would) mostly because i think that spending money on fixing inefficiencies in $300B would be more valuable
17:58 < yashgaroth> money spent per cure is a silly metric when you don't have a drug ready for development; we'd be far better off putting dem cancer moniez into basic biology research
17:58 < kanzure> e.g. what if only $3M/year would increase charitable efficiency by 10%? that would be like donating $30B ;)
17:59 < AdrianG> in your dreams maybe
17:59 < yashgaroth> every fucking molbio paper out there has to mention how the research is tangentially related to curing something, often cancer
17:59 < streety> the problem comes when you don't agree with the mission of every charity
18:01 < AdrianG> yashgaroth, this research is known to the state of California to cause cancer.
18:01 < yashgaroth> yo momma's known to blah blah you know the rest
18:01 < AdrianG> to cause cancer?
18:02 < yashgaroth> in california, yes
18:03 < yashgaroth> anyway, when you're looking at biology through the lens of disease only, you tend to miss things that are often important
18:04 < streety> The state of california in thr US substitutes for the Daily Mail in the UK as the go-to source for cancer cause/cure classification?
18:04 < yashgaroth> nah they just pass a lot of stupid ballot initiatives
18:04 < streety> yashgaroth, agree completely, that's what I meant for transformative science
18:05 < streety> I'm not sure if that is better or worse
18:05 < yashgaroth> nothing is worse than the daily mail
18:06 < streety> but does it cause cancer?
18:06 < yashgaroth> metaphorical
18:07 < yashgaroth> I'd imagine charity has an obligation to be transformative, since they don't need to turn a profit or have popular support (i.e. industry and gov't respectively)
18:09 < streety> only transformative within the scope of their mission though
18:24 < AdrianG> lol daily mail is known the state of california to cause cancer
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23:26 < kanzure> boop
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