--- Log opened Mon Nov 19 00:00:20 2012
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09:09 < kanzure> nanosaur
09:10 < nmz787> quack quack
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09:45 < Mariu> nanosaur xD
09:45 < Mariu> =]
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10:17 < chris_99> i guess you guys have heard about this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20365355
10:17 < chris_99> "Nose cell transplant enables paralysed dogs to walk"
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11:03 < archels> chris_99: paper plz
11:04 < chris_99> alas, don't have a linky to that
11:20 < nmz7871>  this is cool http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/11/14/brain.aws295.short?rss=1
11:20 < nmz7871> The cerebral cortex of Albert Einstein: a description and preliminary analysis of unpublished photographs
11:21 < fenn> it looks like science, but is it repeatable?
11:22 < nmz7871> not unless you go back in time when albert was alive
11:23 < fenn> and chop his brain up
11:23 < nmz7871> get 3scan on it
11:24 < kanzure> 3scan should be stealing brains from museums
11:24 < kanzure> todd is insufficiently willing to do what is necessary
11:24 < fenn> i'm sure they have plenty of brains already
11:25 < fenn> here's another fluff brain article http://discovermagazine.com/2012/oct/16-brutal-truths-about-the-aging-brain
11:25 < kanzure> do you know what they are up to lately?
11:25 < fenn> besides tama the cat, no
11:26 < fenn> "The prototype is near completion!  Stage wiggles!  The camera images!  Connecting bits are coming together!
11:26 < fenn> Expect new data soon, until then..."
11:26 < kanzure> wasn't that posted years ago?
11:26 < fenn> actually that was quite a while ago
11:26 < kanzure> yes
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11:39 < fenn> i wonder why the standard way to report intelligence test results is a normalized quotient, rather than the raw scores
11:41 < ParahSail1in> because it's measuring an ordinal, not cardinal property?
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11:47  * fenn looks up those words..
11:47 < nmz7871> anyone here know about silanization?
11:48 < ParahSail1in> silanize what?
11:48 < nmz7871> silicon
11:49 < kanzure> is this why you are playing with plasma chambers?
11:49 < nmz7871> someone on mems-talk is saying to silanize silicon with FDTS (fluorinated polymer with si-X group on end, where X is hydrolyzable)
11:49 < nmz7871> to prep the silicon for pouring PDMS silicone over to do mold replication
11:50 < nmz7871> aka soft lithography
11:50 < nmz7871> so i'm wondering if there is a shorter R-Si-X group
11:50 < fenn> oh it's a mold release
11:50 < ParahSail1in> i imagine FDTS would release PDMS
11:51 < nmz7871> kanzure: not exactly, oxygen plasma is required to regenerate silanol groups on the PDMS, and also clean the PDMS... prior to bonding
11:51 < nmz7871> the silanol groups bond to each other
11:51 < nmz7871> so you can bond 2 PDMS layers
11:52 < nmz7871> but is the mold release character because the F groups are unreactive toward the cross-linking PDMS?
11:52 < nmz7871> since you pour on the PDMS uncured, then allow it to cure before peeling off
11:52 < fenn> it also might not stick to the mold
11:53 < nmz7871> well the other side is a silicon group, and you hydrolzye a halogen off it to get a silanol, which then bonds to the silanols on the silicon surface
11:53 < fenn> but yeah, probably it sticks to silicon because you're freeing a silicon group
11:55 < fenn> yarr
11:55 < nmz7871> right, but I'm wondering why the fluorinated polymer tail doesn't stick to PDMS
11:55 < fenn> because it has huge orbitals
11:55 < nmz7871> just cause fluorine is so unreactive after its in the polymer form?
11:55 < fenn> right
11:55 < nmz7871> hmm
11:55 < nmz7871> ok, so I might find a shorter chain release agent than FDTS
11:55 < fenn> it's basically teflon
11:56 < nmz7871> in case I want to play with nanofluidics
11:56 < nmz7871> I'm also worried about boundary area chemistry, so I want things to be as smooth as possible
11:56 < fenn> what does fdts stand for?
11:57 < nmz7871> 1H,1H,2H,2H-Perfluorodecyltrichlorosilane
11:57 < nmz7871> http://www.synquestlabs.com/product/id/23455.html
11:59 < fenn> apparently FOTS (octyl) is often used as well, if that matters
11:59 < nmz7871> octo is shorter than decyl!
11:59 < fenn> and PETS (aromatic side chain)
12:00 < fenn> and shortest of all TMCS (3 methyl groups)
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12:01 < ParahSail1in> i dont think that would be as good of release agent
12:01 < fenn> looks like the shorter chain molecules aren't as hydrophobic
12:01 < docl> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9uXJVOTx_1qVXRoeUhkcmo1TzA (recently posted to GRG and forwarded to new cryonet)
12:01 < ParahSail1in> you're trying to get one that doesnt need to be plasma deposited?
12:02 < fenn> i dont think plasma is strictly necessary for this step
12:03 < nmz7871> well i found a lab locally for $20/hr, they have a fume evac hood and a plasma etcher with a connection for inlet gas, and a bell jar, oven, carbon plasma (soot coater), FIB, contact litho stuff
12:03 < ParahSail1in> afaik fdts is done in a chemical vapor deposition of some sort
12:03 < nmz7871> so I want to be able to silanize in that setup
12:04 < ParahSail1in> maybe you dont need fluorinated surface for release?
12:04 < nmz7871> ahh
12:04 < nmz7871> 1) Place your Si wafers (with no PDMS on them, this is just so you end
12:04 < nmz7871> up with a long fluorinated molecule sticking up from the surface so
12:04 < nmz7871> the PDMS will peel off easily later) in a vacuum desiccator connected
12:04 < nmz7871> to house vacuum (do a google image search for vacuum desiccator to see
12:04 < nmz7871> what these look like). 2) Place 10-20 uL of FDTS in a small container
12:04 < nmz7871> (the top of an eppendorf tube works well) in the bottom of the chamber
12:04 < nmz7871> (location doesn't matter much). 3) Pull house vacuum, and leave them
12:04 < nmz7871> for ~2 hours (exact time will be more or less depending on the vacuum
12:04 < nmz7871> strength and container size). 4) Bake the wafers at 110 for ~2 hours.
12:04 < fenn> so the chlorine reacts somehow to make a silanol, is that just a reaction that happens between chloro-whatever and passivated silicon?
12:04 < nmz7871> no
12:04 < nmz7871> with the water in the air
12:04 < nmz7871> hydrolysis
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12:06 < nmz7871> i think
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12:08 < nmz7871> ahh yes, the OH replaces the Cl, and silanol and HCl is formed
12:08 < nmz7871> http://www.dowcorning.com/content/discover/discoverchem/chlorosilane-hydrolysis.aspx
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12:10 < nmz7871> so without the vacuum, the FDTS would just gel up on itself I think
12:11 < fenn> i bet it has a small amount of chain reaction terminator added for shelf stability
12:12 < fenn> the vacuum is to get all the air (and water in the air) out of the way
12:12 < fenn> yeah i guess it would react in the eppendorf instead of on the surface
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12:13 < nmz7871> I junkpicked a silane catalog from these folks oddly enough http://www.gelest.com/GELEST/Forms/GeneralPages/literature.aspx
12:14 < nmz7871> it was a good junk find!
12:14 < fenn> there arent that many silane manufacturers
12:14 < nmz7871> I imagine this same reaction is how PDMS crosslinks
12:15 < ParahSail1in> oh yeah gelest, i used some of their silane coatings
12:15 < ParahSail1in> i was trying to remember the name
12:16 < ParahSail1in> nevermind, different
12:17 < nmz7871> fenn: this is a fun slideshow http://web.pdx.edu/~pmoeck/phy381/fib.pdf
12:20 < fenn> for "full spectrum imaging" eh
12:21 < fenn> so you can get volumetric mass spectrum images, that's pretty cool
12:21 < nmz7871> rev-engineer ICs
12:22 < nmz7871> i think you can even fix broken silicon wire traces
12:22 < fenn> it would take forever to do a whole IC though
12:26 < fenn> how do you ensure the slices are flat
12:26 < fenn> different materials would sputter at different rates
12:26 < nmz7871> test area?
12:27 < nmz7871> and since its almost like a light beam in terms of focus and astigmatism, you can't dwell on an area too long
12:27 < nmz7871> or your beam gets wider as stuff ablates down
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12:28 < fenn> but it erodes at different rates, you would end up with hills and valleys and think they were flat, giving a very distorted 3d image
12:29 < nmz7871> if you're doing ablation 3D spectroscopy?
12:29 < fenn> maybe the difference isnt very large if you use high energy ions
12:29 < nmz7871> (or whatever its calleD)
12:29 < nmz7871> that's what i was thinking
12:30 < nmz7871> if you're looking at an IC, its gonna be mainly silicon, with varying dopant levels
12:30 < nmz7871> but maybe you could calibrate that out?
12:30 < nmz7871> you'd need some feedback via the mass spectrometer i guess
12:31 < nmz7871> you might be able to use low energy to map the surface first
12:32 < nmz7871> the imaging is accomplished just by secondary electron emission
12:32 < nmz7871> so you might be able to do a 3D line scanner type approach
12:32 < nmz7871> to determine flatness
12:33 < fenn> it's probably just not important for the 2d stuff most people are doing
12:33 < fenn> 2.5d at best
12:34 < fenn> i was thinking biological speciments
12:34 < nmz7871> you should come up with that chirp grating image for me to play with
12:34 < fenn> you want a svg?
12:35 < nmz7871> this guy said it takes a binary bitmap
12:35 < fenn> well a bitmap is going to be ginormous
12:35 < nmz7871> but i recon i could take an SVG and export it however i wish
12:35 < fenn> okay, should the svg be some number of inches per side?
12:36 < fenn> one to one?
12:36 < nmz7871> umm, well the machine is in mm
12:36 < nmz7871> it can do 1 mm sq at a time
12:37 < nmz7871> in segments, but that is what the lenses dynamic range is
12:37 < nmz7871> but i dont know if the machine raster spacing is metric or SAE
12:37 < fenn> derr.. so i hope it can stitch them together
12:38 < nmz7871> yes
12:38 < nmz7871> how big were you thinking this would be?
12:38 < fenn> well it has to be visible, so larger than 1 mm
12:38 < nmz7871> heh
12:38 < nmz7871> thats like 10 hairs!
12:39 < fenn> ideally 10 mm by 50 mm
12:39 < fenn> 2 by 25 is an okay compromise
12:40 < nmz7871> well keep your ideal aspect ratio and we can start with 1mm x 5mm
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12:43 < nmz7871> hmm, so that fib.pdf says it has +-10nm beam registration between scans
12:44 < nmz7871> 2 inch by 2 inch mechanical stage translation, but doesn't give accuracy for that
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13:13 < kanzure> xp_prg returns :\
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13:37 < nmz7871> fenn where did you find the link for the aromatic PETS
13:37 < nmz7871> i cant find PETS SILANE
13:37 < nmz7871> or PETS PDMS
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15:04 < fenn> nmz7871: the brochure on the left http://www.insurftech.com/stiction/index.html
15:04 < fenn> so i've got a silly arithmetic problem
15:05 < fenn> apparently i've become stupid since graduating high school and forgotten how to do math
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15:06 < nmz7871> sillify me
15:09 < fenn> trying to rapidly reduce the line width to submicron level but not so fast that it clumps up at the end
15:10 < fenn> i end up with either big bands the whole time or goes to zero instantly
15:10 < fenn> i need something like a 1/x function
15:10 < fenn> hold on, naming pictures to share
15:13 < nmz7871> fenn http://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/signal.html#waveforms
15:13 < nmz7871> maybe that?
15:16 < fenn> as i have it, each line width changes like so: i = i ** (exponent * math.log(n)**gamma)
15:16 < fenn> n is each iteration
15:16 < kanzure> is it this?
15:16 < kanzure> http://fennetic.net/irc/chirp_mask/chirp_color_exp0.8_gamma-0.01.png
15:16 < kanzure> maybe that's what you want
15:16 < fenn> here's some example values and the images they result
15:17 < fenn> yes thank you kanzure~
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15:17 < fenn> stuff in that directory
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15:24 < fenn> exponent 0.99 gamma -0.02 looks okay ish but the function itself seems wrong, like it takes a nose dive
15:25 < fenn> oops i changed the function, derr
15:29 < kanzure> live action fist of the north star is reasonably good http://youtube.com/watch?v=bXcmG2uvgRY#t=21m37s
15:31 < nmz7871> that asian guy was in the movie Hook
15:31 < drethelin1> Rufio
15:31 < nmz7871> and i thought that was about astronomy
15:32 < kanzure> yeah it even has malcom mcdowell
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15:33 < kanzure> as ryuken
15:33 < nmz7871> http://goodfet.sourceforge.net/hardware/facedancer11/
15:34 < nmz7871> 'Unlike the general-purpose GoodFET boards, the only purpose of this board is to allow USB devices to be written in host-side Python, so that one workstation can fuzz-test the USB device drivers of another host. The board is functionally identical to the Facedancer10, correcting only minor errata.'
15:34 < kanzure> there was another thing recently like that.. python remotely controlling various boardds
15:34 < kanzure> *boards
15:35 < fenn> i suppose this would make sense if i knew what "fuzz test" meant
15:35 < kanzure> iterate through all possible inputs in the hopes of finding a security flaw
15:36 < fenn> is this basically just a gigamonkey?
15:36 < fenn> “If you put a billion monkeys in front of a billion typewriters typing at random, they would reproduce the entire collected works of Usenet … in about five minutes.”
15:38 < fenn> i still dont get it
15:39 < nmz7871> you can define what USB device the USB chip presents itself to a host, as defined by a python program that it intreprets
15:39 < nmz7871> so the board can present as a keyboard and send keypresses
15:40 < fenn> i thought it was a jtag adapter? what the fuck is this supposed to do?
15:40 < nmz7871> or it can say its an external harddrive
15:40 < nmz7871> albeit with a very small capacity
15:40 < nmz7871> well it say's its unlike the goodFET
15:41 < nmz7871> http://travisgoodspeed.blogspot.com/2012/07/emulating-usb-devices-with-python.html
15:42 < nmz7871> 'we came to the conclusion that while libusb and python-usb make it easy to prototype USB host-side applications, there wasn't really anything handy for prototyping device-side applications. So the next afternoon, we wired a MAX3421 EVK into the GoodFET41. This allows us to write USB devices entirely in host-side Python, fuzzing for device-driver vulnerabilities wherever we like.'
15:42 < chris_99> thats a funky little idea
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15:45 < nmz7871> 'The C firmware running on the MSP430 is intentionally kept as minimal as possible, with complexity pushed to the Python client in order to speed development and prevent the need for reflashing during development. This is perfectly fine for emulating USB devices, as kernels seem very tolerant of delays in responses. Additionally, the MAX3420 handles all fast-reaction timings itself, so our round-trip overheads don't create
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15:48 < nmz7871> 'hile HID is a favorite first example for USB, it's not very closely related to the devices you'll see in the field. For one thing, it only uses a single IN endpoint and no OUT endpoints. For another, there are dozens of open source firmware implementations already available. As such, I've also included an emulator for the FTDI chip, which I based upon the documentation in OpenBSD'suftdireg.h and a few quick peeks at the 
15:48 < nmz7871> hile==while
15:49 < nmz7871> http://www.flickr.com/photos/travisgoodspeed/7211571882/
15:49 < nmz7871> heh
15:49 < nmz7871> he found a bug in libusb before even making it to Hello World (unintentional fuzzing)
15:51 < chris_99> heh
15:52 < nmz7871> 'e're happy to send them out for free to the funemployed, but please properly format your shipping address.'
15:52 < nmz7871> I think I'm funemployed
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16:49 < nmz7871> having wider pixel count makes it seem like i have less tabs, since theyre less smashed together!
16:49 < kanzure> use vertical tabs
16:50 < kanzure> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/
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17:03 < kanzure> "Gary Daniels enjoyed his role so much in Fist of the North Star that he namd one of his sons Kenshiro."
17:04 < kanzure> seems to be true.. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000719976258
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18:00 < fenn> inkscape shits its pants on these diffraction gratings
18:01 < kanzure> i'm never quite certain if inkscape remembers that i told it the document is 100x100 mm
18:05 < fenn> nmz7871: so let me get this straight.. if i want a diffraction grating with 100 nm lines, that means your bitmap will be 50000 pixels
18:06 < fenn> well, 100000 pixels
18:06 < kanzure> why is it bitmap only?
18:07 < fenn> because it's basically a television set
18:07 < fenn> like a CRT
18:11 < fenn> i think my evaluation process leaves a bit to be desired
18:11 < fenn> i'm looking at these masks on a lcd screen
18:12 < fenn> more or less randomly coloring the output
18:12 < fenn> i guess what i really need is a simulation of the diffraction
18:13 < fenn> right now the "best" looking grating has only 3000 lines, 1.5e-6mm to .004mm, average pitch of .0004mm
18:14 < fenn> but half of those lines are crammed into the first 10 microns
18:15 < fenn> well, anyway, it's a thing
18:16 < fenn> warning may annoy your rendering engine: http://fennetic.net/irc/chirp_mask/chirp_bw_k1e-05_gamma1.3.svg
18:16 < fenn> oh damn it crashed firefox
18:16 < fenn> don't click that link, sorry
18:17 < kanzure> "Live in the future, then build what's missing."
18:17 < kanzure> "When something annoys you, it could be because you're living in the future."
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18:52 < fenn> blah i give up
18:52 < fenn> nmz7871: please etch this one: http://fennetic.net/irc/chirp_mask/chirp_bw_k1e-05_gamma1.7.png
18:53 < fenn> (the svg file of course)
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20:02 < nmz7871> k
20:02 < nmz7871> that first link didnt crash chrome in win7
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 20 00:00:21 2012