--- Log opened Fri Dec 14 00:00:55 2012
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05:09 < chris_99> http://blog.medigr.am/?p=115 tiny little EEG/ECG board
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11:53 <@fenn> i like wireless power for EEG/ECG because it reduces the risk of electrocution, as well as ground loop noise
11:53 <@fenn> oh it's a commercial device.. bummer
11:54 <@fenn> i'm gonna revers engineer that from their photos :P
11:54 < chris_99> alas it doesn't show the chips
11:54 < ThomasEgi> a wirelessly powered eeg?..
11:54 < ThomasEgi> as in.. battery+inductive charging?
11:57 <@fenn> "What we’ve enabled is the integration of these large components onto a single microchip, achieving significant improvements in power consumption"
11:57 <@fenn> so perhaps not especially DIY
11:57 <@fenn> really i dont see why eeg or ecg should consume very much power, even with existing amplifiers and transcievers
11:58 <@fenn> "the system doesn’t have a battery. It harvests the sparse radio-frequency energy from a nearby device – in this case, a cell phone. The small smart phone carried by hundreds of millions of people around the world can now provide the energy for important biomedical monitoring"
11:58 <@fenn> that's the extent of the technical description :\
12:06 <@kanzure> so apparently cwm does window labeling and searching
12:06 <@kanzure> http://kmandla.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/cwm.jpg
12:06 <@kanzure> you just type for what you want instead of tabbing or rotating or workspaces
12:06 <@kanzure> i think this also means you don't need to use tabs in browsers, too
12:07 <@fenn> doesn't that mean you have to have a separate window (and therefore separate process) for each tab?
12:07 <@kanzure> yeah
12:07 <@kanzure> no it's not "therefore separate process", to my knowledge
12:07 <@fenn> not that i think it's a bad thing to use a window manager to manage windows..
12:08 <@kanzure> when you launch google-chrome multiple times it alerts "Created new window in existing browser session."
12:08 <@kanzure> dunno about firefox, but i imagine it's similar
12:09 < ThomasEgi> fenn, the reason why most amplifier devices require comparebly lots of power is that working with higher currents can lower the noise levels. i doubt an EEG could run off radio-energy-harvesting. even if burned in a single soc
12:14 < chris_99> EEG deals with low currents though surely
12:14 < chris_99> even after amping the signal the current could still presumably be low
12:17 < ThomasEgi> usualy. the first stage in the amplifier design is an impedance matcher. and from there on, currents have nothing to do with the inputs anymore. unless your entire amp stage is current based, which is very uncommon.
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12:23 < ThomasEgi> having said that. it is, theoretically possible to build amps based on ridiculsly high impendance input stages. but those are extremly prone to environmental influences. EM crap, temperature, humidity, drifts etc. and then you still didn't gain much.
12:25 <@fenn> i figured responding to "environmental influences" was the goal
12:25 <@fenn> EEG is sensing the electric field coming off the brain, no?
12:26 < ThomasEgi> yeah. but that thing is so sensitive you can get the video signal of a tube-based tv that's 2 rooms next to yours.
12:26 < ThomasEgi> doing nothing but having the input pin floating. no antenna, no nothing.
12:27 < ThomasEgi> picks up everything. walk across the room, watch the effects of your body changing the electrical field in the room.
12:28 <@fenn> okay so have two amplifiers, one acting as the control
12:28 < ThomasEgi> hehe. no chance. the only way you can get meaningful results is to do full copper shielding. massive shielding.
12:28 <@fenn> why can't you do differential measurement?
12:29 < ThomasEgi> well you can, if you have a reference.
12:30 < ThomasEgi> not sure how it would hold up for eeg stuff. i mainly designed it for microphones. it does perform fairly well at very low frequencies.
12:32 < ThomasEgi> i can test it. i should receive the parts for building it rather soon
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12:34 <@fenn> well anyway, easier for me to just use a battery in the meanwhile
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12:39 < ThomasEgi> you'll need that anyway :)
12:39 < ThomasEgi> the more energy you have available. the easier the design for the electronic
12:43 <@fenn> the wireless eeg thing reminds me of the smart dust from the book "deepness in the sky"
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13:53 < juri_> thomas: our hackerspace is building EEGs. we're trying to nullify outside signal sources, by referencing the leg of the patient.
13:54 <@kanzure> i don't understand why eegs are hyped so much
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13:57 <@fenn> juri_: but that uses a common ground point, right? you're not doing two completely separate measurements (from two pairs of points)
13:57 <@fenn> it's not really "wireless" if you need a wire going from your head to your leg
13:59 <@fenn> btw who's doing that project?
13:59 < juri_> we're shooting for 'battery powered.'
13:59 < juri_> http://mirage335.dyndns.org/wiki/Mirage335BiosignalAmp
13:59 < juri_> hacDC is building at least three of them
14:00 <@fenn> cool. i'm definitely interested in all three use cases (eeg/ekg/emg)
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14:25 < juri_> we have a very active, if eclectic biohacking group.
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14:48 <@fenn> how come there was so much noise about 11-11-11 but nothing about 12-12-12?
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14:49 < Mariu> what was the noise about 11-11-11 ?
14:49 <@fenn> there were parades and parties and so on. maybe i'm just out of the loop now
14:49 < Mariu> :p
14:49 <@kanzure> you don't live with twenty people now
14:49 < Mariu> lol
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15:43 <@kanzure> ugh :(
15:43 <@kanzure> http://www.kurzweilai.net/kurzweil-joins-google-to-work-on-new-projects-involving-machine-learning-and-language-processing
15:44 <@kanzure> director.. of engineering?
15:45 <@fenn> i really hope i'm reading that wrong
15:46 <@kanzure> peter norvig could totally murder ray in a caged match
15:46 <@kanzure> ah pete is only "director of research".. dafuq
15:46 <@kanzure> http://norvig.com/
15:47 <@fenn> engineering is like ... making sure their server farms are reliable and performance scales
15:48 <@kanzure> life is so confusing
15:48 <@fenn> maybe he will invent the second generation of fuck-up-my-search-query technology
15:49 <@fenn> google masturbatim
15:49 <@kanzure> no, he'll fuck up google glass
15:49 <@fenn> yeah that's a reasonable interpretation
15:50 <@fenn> i never had high hopes for google glass anyway
15:50 <@fenn> best result is something like what happened with phones
15:50 <@kanzure> android turned out okay (in the scheme of things)
15:50 <@fenn> they still really let the whole open source part down
15:51 <@fenn> there's way more incompatibility in the android realm than there ought to be
15:51 <@kanzure> because they do a bulk merge instead of incremental merges?
15:51 <@kanzure> oh, that, yes
15:51 <@fenn> proprietary drivers, "locked" phones etc
15:51 <@fenn> why the fuck would you have to "root" an open source phone? it makes no sense
15:52 <@kanzure> you don't-- all of google's phones have a boot loader now that lets you boot into saner things
15:53 <@fenn> from what i understand, stock android is pretty reasonable (disabled ad-hoc wireless not withstanding)
15:53 <@kanzure> also, the rooting is because of carriers. they are afraid of phone users.
15:53 <@fenn> how is it even possible though?
15:54 <@fenn> sometimes the law is just beyond me
15:54 <@kanzure> the carriers probably disable root or give it an obscure password
15:57 <@fenn> i read that there's a DMCA circumvention exception for phones, but not for tablets or other devices that don't make phone calls
15:58 <@fenn> but the courts go back and forth on whether you are or arent allowed to root some particular device.. to the point where you can't predict what you will be allowed to do in two years' time
15:58 <@fenn> anyway i'm just ranting, plz ignore
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16:30 <@kanzure> man it's weird seeing people defend ray
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16:31 <@kanzure> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4923914
16:42 < nmz787> hi
16:42 < nmz787> i am actually looking for a new ROM for my android phone
16:43 < nmz787> because skype doesnt seem to work, and with a 720P camera on the back, and a VGA cam on the front, why do I not make as many video calls as possible????
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16:43 < nmz787> some of those 'proprietary' drivers are my suspicion for why skype is being a pain
16:43 <@kanzure> cyanogenmod tends to be okay
16:44 < brownies> i had CM on my 'droid. it was solidly okay.
16:44 < brownies> occasionally it would hard-reboot the phone while i was using it, but that may have been my obscure/old hardware.
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16:49 < nmz787> yeah I'm on CM6 now because its the last CM that they hacked the proprietary driver from or something
16:49 < nmz787> so 720P works in the video cam mode
16:54 <@fenn> haha "creationism for people with an IQ over 140"
17:02 <@fenn> i wonder why anyone would buy a plain SD card instead of a microSD with adapter
17:03 <@kanzure> you know, maybe my iq isn't over 140 and that's why i think ray's full of it
17:04 <@fenn> almost nobody has an IQ over 140, so that doesn't explain anything, sorry
17:06 <@kanzure> damn.
17:06 <@fenn> huh maybe i'm wrong about that. there are ~1.4 million americans over IQ 140?
17:09 <@fenn> (by definition)
17:09 < juri_> there's quite a backlash against anyone who says they have a higher IQ.
17:09 <@kanzure> duh
17:09 < nmz787> did you just move the decimal fenn?
17:10 < juri_> especially since IQ is in no way correlated to success in life.
17:10 < juri_> (however one defines success)
17:11 < nmz787> that would mean there are 300 million americans with an IQ off 30000
17:11 <@kanzure> juri_: iq is really uninteresting in here, because people conflate it with whatever super powers the human brain has
17:11 <@fenn> nmz787: no i consulted a standard deviation vs percentile chart
17:11 < nmz787> :D
17:11 < juri_> kanzure: makes sense.
17:11 <@kanzure> fenn: so, maybe it's a good thing. of all the places to give him a reality check, google might be it.
17:11 <@kanzure> "no, file systems can't do that you jerk"
17:11 <@kanzure> and "no, our ocr is better"
17:12 <@fenn> hmm.
17:12 <@fenn> tesseract leaves a lot to be desired
17:12 <@kanzure> no i mean the one they actually use
17:12 <@fenn> i think they use tesseract
17:12 <@kanzure> pretty sure they aren't using default tessera-- oh
17:12 <@kanzure> well maybe they are just better at using it than i am.
17:13 <@fenn> it's probably just really fiddly, and since they display images of the books (ocr text is only used for searching) nobody notices the amazingly high prevalence of errors
17:13 <@fenn> i mean it might work okay if you have perfect input
17:14 <@fenn> and it needs all kinds of support programs like unpaper and dewarping/deskewing that really should be integrated
17:14 <@kanzure> the thing is, it's really easy to test those things
17:14 <@fenn> to test what?
17:14 <@kanzure> generate random unicode data -> print it out -> run it through the ocr machine
17:14 <@fenn> print it with a printer?
17:14 <@kanzure> (unless you can generate the same artifacts without printing it)
17:15 <@kanzure> either way. i don't care.
17:15 <@kanzure> "this generator produces images that look like poorly scanned books"
17:15 <@fenn> well two things; books are printed in various fonts and formats, and there are better and worse ways to scan books
17:16 <@kanzure> also- you can scan multiple pageso f the same book and collect data on similar artifacts
17:16 <@fenn> tesseract seems to have been designed or tuned to work only with perfectly scanned books
17:16 <@kanzure> (or whatever awful font they were using)
17:16 <@fenn> yeah i know that's possible, i just dont know how to do it
17:16 <@kanzure> steeevee
17:16 <@kanzure> where is steve when you need him?
17:16 <@fenn> you have to manually go through and build up libraries of individual "glyphs"
17:16 < jrayhawk> "Apparently, ATLAS used this last month to search for the systematic errors that might be responsible for the discrepancy but, having found nothing, they decided to go public."
17:16 < jrayhawk> It looks like ATLAS... *puts on sunglasses* shrugged. YEEEEAAAAHHH!!!!!!
17:17 <@fenn> your rabid randism won't save you from death
17:17 <@kanzure> wrong rayhawk
17:17 <@kanzure> i wanted the other one
17:18 <@fenn> i thought they were the same person :P
17:18 <@fenn> (no not really)
17:18 <@kanzure> joe can't you just go sneak into his room and type /join on his machine
17:18 <@kanzure> worked with sauri k
17:18 < jrayhawk> i actually have direct control of his irc client from here
17:18 <@kanzure> excellent work
17:18 <@fenn> does steve have OCR expertise?
17:20 <@kanzure> probably not, but he probably also has experience in something that is ocr but not called oc
17:20 <@kanzure> *ocr
17:20 <@fenn> er, what?
17:21 < juri_> I'm actually the maintainer of GNU GIFT.
17:21 < juri_> i do form recognition, including stamp recognition.
17:21 <@kanzure> fenn: lots of pattern recognition stuff
17:21 <@kanzure> fenn: and accounting for obscure edge cases
17:21 < juri_> my online demo sucks. i really should work on it.
17:24 <@kanzure> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/508896/what-google-sees-in-new-hire-futurist-ray-kurzweil/
17:25 <@kanzure> peter norvig picked him ?
17:26 <@fenn> that seems to be the implication
17:29 <@fenn> juri_: old gqview has a 'find duplicate files' mode that will group images in a folder by similarity.. is there anything like that for gift?
17:29 < juri_> that's kindof what gift does.
17:29 < juri_> that would be 'doing a search for each image by each image.
17:30 <@fenn> this redirect to 'mrml clients' is sorta confusing for a new user
17:30 <@fenn> like, what is mrml?
17:30 < juri_> just have fun with the online demo. ;)
17:30 < juri_> its a bad idea of a image query language.
17:31 < juri_> there's lots about that software i need to change, to really bring out its potential.
17:31 < juri_> i've more of just been focused on using it practically.
17:32 < juri_> my next project is to use 3d gabor filtering with multiple cameras to do 3d microscopy.
17:33 < juri_> i'm trying to improve/document the concept of a 'cell printer'.
17:33 <@fenn> what are the cameras for?
17:34 <@fenn> you know about flow cytometry right?
17:34 < juri_> never heard of it.
17:34 <@fenn> oh, it's pretty neat
17:34 < juri_> they're there for ultra-precise positioning control.
17:34 < juri_> i want to safely pick up and deposit cells.
17:35 < juri_> to do that, i need to know exactly where my picker is, and where the target is. 2d won't do it.
17:35 <@fenn> you spray a stream of droplets past two capacitive deflector plates; on average each droplet contains 0 or 1 cells, if the cell is there and of the correct type (it's glowing because you stained the correct type of cell with a fluorescent tag) the droplet gets deflected to one place, otherwise to a different place
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17:36 < juri_> ah yess, someone was telling me about that the other day.
17:36 <@fenn> you can realistically do 2-3 tags at a time
17:36 <@fenn> i think it works for single molecules, with a fancy enough camera
17:37 < juri_> me being myself, i go with nothing fancy. its all stuff i 3d print, or parts of computers/printers. ;)
17:37 <@fenn> you can use a photodiode if there's enough tag in the droplet
17:38 <@fenn> i really dont know why they're so expensive
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17:54 < kanzure_> wtf
17:54 < yashgaroth> indeed
17:54 <@fenn> would be fun to play with this similarity data as an elastic graph of icons
17:58 <@fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/gqview_duplicate_files.png http://fennetic.net/irc/gqview_duplicate_files2.png
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18:08 <@fenn> juri_: images tagged cc-sa on flickr might make for a less wonky demo
18:08 < juri_> fenn: the real enemy of my demo is transparency.
18:08 <@fenn> or wikimedia
18:08 <@fenn> you mean alpha channel?
18:09 < juri_> yepyep. the software isnt built to handle it.
18:10 <@fenn> man sourceforge makes it so hard to download repositories
18:11 < kanzure_> someone should make a sourceforge site that makes things not suck, and just redirect the important stuff to sourceforge.
18:12 < kanzure_> you could just http 302 to the actual download url
18:12 <@fenn> there is no "actual download url"
18:12 < kanzure_> http://project.lessawfulsourceforge.com/download/latest
18:12 <@fenn> i'm figuring out how to use git-cvs again
18:12 < kanzure_> whoever does that will be the hero of the world
18:14 < jrayhawk> ha ha man it'd be funny to scrape and deploy the entirity of sourceforge
18:14 < jrayhawk> i guess i am not that far off with piny
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18:15 < kanzure_> maybe we could scrape sourceforge and then get everyone to block sourceforge by dns
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18:19 <@fenn> oh good rsync works
18:19 <@fenn> rsync -av rsync://PROJECTNAME.cvs.sourceforge.net/cvsroot/PROJECTNAME/* .
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18:25 < Thorbinator1> http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/12/ray-kurzweil-the-singularity-guy-joins-google/
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18:42 < kanzure_> "There is a common delusion that if you pretend to be 'professional' with enough sincerity, wear the suit and go through all the executive ritual motions, are always positive in attitude, and never--ever--complain, then money will happen."
18:42 < kanzure_> well, at least eric's honest about luf
18:43 < kanzure_> "he very hard reality is this; right now there is more talent, practical skill, creativity, and vitality among the Bronies than there is among the entire global space advocacy community. The empirical proof of that is seen all over the Internet. They do stuff!"
18:43 < kanzure_> brownies: yo dawg, he's mentioning your next of kin.
18:43 < brownies> uh. what the fuck?
18:47 < kanzure_> brownies: https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/49873e1065ef012f
18:51 < brownies> what's the LUF?
18:51 < brownies> i see.
18:52 < brownies> well, that message is just far too long.
18:52 < kanzure_> "Since I first joined the FMF--now going toward twenty years ago--I have been continuously generating and proposing project ideas for this group, always seeking things that were more accessible in terms of cost and skills. I always knew the demographics of space enthusiasts was weak, but I long believed that, in a community so international and large, there had to be some latent reserve of practical skills waiting for the right project to draw it 
18:52 < kanzure_> "So that's what I tried to do. And I didn't just float trial balloons. Despite not being the most healthy person or personally having much resources, I have tried to get things to critical mass on my own, but it's really slow-going alone. Right now I have about a dozen pans on the stove, and I have seen little to no help on offer for them. I can't blame people for that."
18:52 < kanzure_> "The skills and means just aren't there. I've now hit bottom. I am now routinely proposing project ideas in this forum on the level of hobby, craft, and DIY home improvement and that's still too difficult for you people. If our community can't handle activity on the level of scout troop crafts, what the hell can we realistically ever hope to accomplish?"
18:53 < kanzure_> "... And one of the problems with that is that these poor sods routinely bite off more than they can chew because they foolishly think getting the ball rolling will inspire the rest of you to help carry things through. Nope."
18:53 < brownies> i see.
18:53 < AdrianG> i dont get it
18:53 < AdrianG> what is this chat about
18:53 < brownies> well, these are reasonable points. and generally a common problem with volunteer organizations... especially organizations that have lofty poorly-defined goals
18:53 < AdrianG> liek transhuman
18:54 < AdrianG> or human+
18:54 < kanzure_> "There already is an open source space movement, but it has almost no connection to the space advocacy community. How many people in this forum have ever heard of Open Luna?"
18:54 < kanzure_> openluna is a lame reference. how about copenhagen suborbitals.
18:54 < kanzure_> AdrianG: humanityplus, if that's what you mean, is not a technical organization. but it tries to lie about this because it wants to be inculded.
18:54 < kanzure_> *included
18:55 < AdrianG> oic
18:55 < AdrianG> so r u like about pilz and implantz
18:56 < AdrianG> and nanobotz itstead of blood cells.
18:57 -!- kanzure_ is now known as kanzure
18:57 < brownies> jesus fuck what is wrong with your brain that you must always type like a retard
18:57 < AdrianG> sry its OCD
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18:58 <@kanzure> no go away
18:58 <@fenn> for teh lulz
18:58 < AdrianG> :<
18:58 < brownies> kanzure: are you still hanging out with h+ at all?
19:02 <@kanzure> i occassionally chat up some of the people that associate themselves with that organization, yeah
19:04 < AdrianG> what is copenhagen suborbitals?
19:07 <@kanzure> a group of aliens displaced from the future attempting to not die in misery
19:07 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Suborbitals
19:07 <@kanzure> "Copenhagen Suborbitals is a non-profit organization based in Denmark's capital, Copenhagen. The organization's main goal is to develop relatively inexpensive forms of suborbital manned spaceflight outside of government programs and the influence of large, for-profit corporations. "
19:07 <@kanzure> "Copenhagen Suborbitals has also focused on the promotion of an open source working environment."
19:08 < AdrianG> they have a snazzy seal.
19:08 <@kanzure> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3005279&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2
19:08 <@kanzure> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3271649&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
19:08 < jrayhawk> registered users only
19:09 < jrayhawk> actually archive users only, even
19:09 <@kanzure> well, just imagine usual SA awesomeness
19:09 < jrayhawk> it was GBS; less acculturated
19:10 <@kanzure> fenn: why don't you go with live with those guys for a while and learn you some danish
19:10 <@kanzure> probably more functional than tractor-e-farm
19:20 <@fenn> heh
19:20 <@fenn> not a bad idea actually
19:21 <@fenn> i wish i could get excited about rockets
19:21 <@fenn> (chemical rockets that is)
19:21 <@fenn> unfortunately nothing much has changed in the last 50 years
19:22  * heath tickles fenn
19:22 < heath> that working?
19:22 <@fenn> gah
19:22 <@fenn> where did you come from
19:22 < heath> alabamar?
19:23 <@fenn> i saw some space stuff there, i think
19:23 < heath> in hsv?
19:23 < heath> makes sense
19:23 <@fenn> at a rest stop on i-10
19:23 <@fenn> :P
19:23 < heath> it's where we stashed the german engineers so we could make it to the moon
19:23 < heath> heh
19:24 <@fenn> what's GBS?
19:24 < heath> game boy system
19:24 < heath> i dunno
19:27 < jrayhawk> GPS is new and fairly integral to modern rocketry, and components and manufacturing are a lot cheaper and more accurate than they used to be
19:28 < jrayhawk> tripropellant setups are still largely untested
19:28 < jrayhawk> aerospikes are still largely untested
19:29 < heath> jrayhawk: gbs, not gps?...
19:29 < heath> also hi jrayhawk
19:30 <@fenn> does GPS even work without some crazy mil-spec receiver?
19:30 < heath> fenn: what were you doing near these parts without calling me huh?
19:30 < heath> huh?
19:30 <@fenn> consumer GPS is required to shut down above mach 1 or somesuch
19:30 <@fenn> heath: driving as fast as i could to get the hell out of there
19:30 < heath> we got a neat little robot roaming our offices with 4 gps sensors :D
19:30 < heath> and fuckton of python code
19:31 < heath> fenn: lul
19:31 <@fenn> jrayhawk: none of these things change the scale of operations significantly
19:31 < jrayhawk> the only limitation on GPS is that the unencrypted signals have a lot of dithering
19:31 < heath> we've got bna, bhm, atl, and bna(nashville), but not much outside of that :)
19:31 <@fenn> or the operational envelope
19:32 <@fenn> jrayhawk: i thought they turned that off in the late 90's
19:32 <@fenn> now encrypted and unencrypted is the same
19:32 < heath> oh, and rocks to fall of
19:32 <@fenn> anyway there's GLONASS
19:32 < jrayhawk> operational envelope is defined by the amount of fuel you have, which is, all things considered, a tiny cost
19:33 <@fenn> i disagree
19:33 < heath> http://jsperf.com/ternary-statements-versus-lookup-tables
19:33 <@fenn> when the minimum viable rocket to orbit is thousands of pounds of wasted junk.. it's all just money down the drain
19:34 < heath> anyone disagree with the use of ternaries like this?
19:34 <@fenn> ternary statements are bullshit
19:34  * heath needs to  write a blog post on using sweet.js to improve code like thsi
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19:34 <@fenn> use a hash/dict whatever the fuck it's called in js
19:35 <@fenn> god damn how many times do i have to say it
19:35 < heath> object
19:35 <@fenn> doesn't js have map()?
19:35 <@kanzure> heath: fenn would not like your office, sorry to disappoint
19:35 <@kanzure> fenn: yes, but only when you use underscore
19:35 < heath> fenn: yerp
19:35 < heath> [].map(function(...
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19:35 <@kanzure> that too. but underscore makes things pleasant.
19:36 < heath> tis true
19:36 <@fenn> so your_object.map(operator,num)
19:36 < heath> it's a gov project, can't use underscore for this particular project :|
19:36 <@fenn> no need for any code beyond that
19:36 <@fenn> i hope you're joking
19:36 < heath> eh, i'm not
19:36 <@fenn> is camel case federally mandated now? wtf
19:37 <@fenn> and people wonder why all the killing sprees
19:37 < heath> lol
19:37 < heath> i'm talking about the lib
19:37 < heath> underscorejs.org
19:37 < heath> we used it on the prototype
19:37 < heath> that along with node.js, stitch, express, coffeescript,er...and backbone
19:37 < heath> and mocha
19:37 < heath> it was hipster's dream
19:38 <@fenn> oh, so there is no map
19:38 < heath> there  is a map in es5.1
19:38 <@fenn> i would just copy it from underscore then
19:38 < heath> iit's available
19:39 <@fenn> um.. then why did you mention underscore?
19:39 < heath> [1,2,3].map(function(num) { return num * 2})
19:39 < heath> because kanzure mentioned it
19:40 < juri_> some consumer GPS gear can be rigged to forget those limits.
19:40 <@kanzure> i was wrong. also there's byte arrays now.
19:40 < juri_> i have four receivers that do not respect that crud.
19:41 < heath> and typed arrays via intel's work
19:41 <@fenn> how do oyou call map from js? i don't see it in chrome's console
19:41 < heath> [21:39:17] <heath> [1,2,3].map(function(num) { return num * 2})
19:42 <@fenn> it only works on lists?
19:42 < heath> yeah
19:42 <@fenn> okay i'm feeling dumb now
19:42 < heath> eh
19:42 < heath> don't?
19:42 < heath> you work in a diff environment
19:43 <@kanzure> one that doesn't drive you crazy
19:43 <@kanzure> one that doesn't involve endless flamewars on semicolons and whether coffeescript is useful
19:43 <@kanzure> one that doesn't have a billion modularization "standards"
19:43 <@fenn> well, i mean i'm literally feeling not up to thinking about programming stuff right now
19:47  * heath didn't realize his text editor had flamewars on semicolons
19:47  * heath investigates
19:50 <@fenn> i'm trying to translate your ternary statement to python
19:50 <@fenn> but it doesnt use map at all, so i dont know what i was thinking
19:51 <@fenn> foo={'add': lambda x,y: x+y, 'subtract': lambda x,y: x-y}
19:51 <@fenn> foo['subtract'](1,2)
19:52 <@fenn>  compute=lambda operation,x,y: foo[operation](x,y)
19:53 < heath> it's just a lookup table
19:53 <@fenn> also in the example i think subtract would always return 0 (since val is the same as val)
19:53 < heath> map is probably appropriate
19:53 < heath> i'll play around with it when i get through this dojo dnd stuff
19:54 < heath> nice observation
19:54 < heath> i was kind of curious which was faster, 1% doesn't seem too big of a deal
19:54 < heath>  and most people can read the lookup tables example a lot easier
19:54 <@fenn> yeah ternary is despised for its (un)readability
19:55 < heath> oh you're translating the ternary example, er, yeah, not a lookup table
19:55 < heath> yeah
19:55 < heath> everyone scratched their heads on that one
19:55 < heath> i like it because it's like a switch statement without the accidental fallthrough
19:55 < heath> by not inlcuding break;
19:55 < heath> ..which is common
19:56  * heath needs a 5th of monitor :'(
19:57 < heath> s/of//
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19:58 <@fenn> no i just didnt understand what you were trying to do, i get it now
20:02 < heath> fenn: what are you up to these days?
20:02 < heath> i haven't really kept tabs on everyone
20:03 < heath> still in sf?
20:04 <@fenn> no, i went to NM to build a house, but that didn't happen. now i'm in DC feeling sorry for myself
20:04 < heath> heheh
20:04 < heath> i found an acre plot for $2k
20:04 < heath> thinking about it
20:04 <@fenn> digging through old projects and trying to sort out my life and maybe even do something useful
20:04 < heath> won't have to worry about zoning laws and it's only 15 mins from downtown
20:05 <@fenn> make sure your neighbors aren't paranoid psychopaths
20:05 <@fenn> everything else is just engineering :P
20:05 < heath> heh
20:06 < juri_> fenn: in DC, eh? want to help build a cell printer? ;)
20:06 <@fenn> juri_: maybe. i'm not convinced it's the right thing to do first
20:06 < heath> so... google hired kurzweil...
20:07 < juri_> well, don't look at me to convince you. i'm just a crazy printer-person, doing what i know.
20:07 <@kanzure> heath: check the logs.
20:07 <@fenn> juri_: why are you building a cell printer?
20:07 <@kanzure> juri_: yes but if you practice applied crazyness, you can be more effective.
20:07 < juri_> because someone else in DIYBIO tried, and did a horrible job of it.
20:07 <@kanzure> instead of choosing random projects
20:08 < juri_> obviously, they thought there was a use for it.
20:08 <@kanzure> jmil's cell printer is pretty good, dunno what you're smoking
20:08 <@kanzure> jmil: ping.. oh he's gone.
20:08 <@fenn> "someone in DIYBIO tried it" isn't a valid reason
20:08 < juri_> really? have you tried reading the documentation? WHAT documentation?
20:08 <@kanzure> his documentation is reprap.org's
20:09 < juri_> i must be epicly missing it, then.
20:09 <@fenn> is this the one where they stretch sugar (pla?) out into vasculature, and then apply magic
20:09 < juri_> i'd like links, if you could provide them.
20:09 < juri_> I don't think so.
20:10 <@kanzure> you're avoiding the reason question
20:10 <@fenn> (expanding on apply magic) a gel of some sort surrounds the vasculature frame and dissolves it, leaving the negative space, which cells then colonize
20:11 <@fenn> maybe she's missing a spleen, or some other blob shaped organ
20:11 < juri_> http://diybio.org/2012/06/12/gaudilabalgaepicker/
20:11 < juri_> i do have a reason.. and its very 'driving'.
20:12 <@kanzure> biocurious has a cell printer group but they don't publish anything because they are assholes
20:12 < juri_> my father is currently dieing of kidney failure.
20:12 <@kanzure> ah
20:12 < juri_> I'm hypoglycemic, and will probably be diabetic.. so i might even end up down the same path.
20:13 < juri_> now, he has years to live.. but they're not good years.
20:13 < juri_> i'm not under the illusion that i'll have revolutionized the world by then or anything..
20:13 <@kanzure> nobody claimed you were under that illusion
20:13 <@kanzure> wtf
20:14 < juri_> but i switched careers from banking (specializing in image recognition) to electronic medical records systems, to try and drive down the cost of healthcare.
20:14 < juri_> i've managed to do something about it. every patch is a victory.
20:14 <@kanzure> you could just move to a country with cheaper healthcare
20:14 <@kanzure> or you can even pay for shady black market healthcare
20:15 < juri_> I'd like to take a more active role in pushing technology forward in medicine.
20:15 < juri_> and as usual, i'm not interested in something expensive for the few. 100% free software, distributed on the internet all the way.
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20:16 < juri_> sorry. you got me into rant mode. its a Big Deal. i'm tired of the people i care about dieing.
20:16 <@kanzure> wrldpc: welcome back. you off deployment?
20:16 < wrldpc> Kanzure!! :D
20:17 < wrldpc> I'm still in Japan.  I've been wanting to link up with Amadeus and see if he knows of anything cool happening but I'm so far south of any major metropolitan area, and given our current liberty restrictions, its made it difficult to do so.
20:17 < wrldpc> Kurzweil is now Director of Engineering for Google?  That struck me as interesting.
20:17 <@kanzure> wrldpc: you should also get in touch with Hiroo Komine <qjp.8.qjp@gmail.com> and Michael Turner <michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com>
20:17 <@fenn> woah cool i totally want this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:40%22_Mild_Hyperbaric_Chamberexternal.jpg
20:18 < heath> http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/paleofuture/2012/12/fun-places-on-the-internet-in-1995/
20:18 < heath> no.. no i don't feel old
20:18 < heath> https://twitter.com/SmithsonianMag/status/279782996108771329
20:19 < heath> "Burning off parts of the brain can help with severe addiction. http://ow.ly/g6HJy "
20:19 < heath> hah
20:19 < heath> love these catching titles
20:19 < heath> 'cept this is a thing...
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20:24 <@fenn> gah this guy just won't get off my screen
20:24 <@fenn> "Another critic of the ADA [diabetes diet] program is futurologist and transhumanist Ray Kurzweil, who together with Dr Terry Grossman .." blah blah blah
20:25 <@kanzure> pretty awful huh
20:25 < heath> seattle has weed and gigabit internet
20:25 < heath> http://instagram.com/p/TM-AfbhsU_/
20:25 < heath> heh
20:26 < heath> the guy who built that, works here.., was on the phone with them explaining how to put that together
20:26 < heath> apparently it took them awhile :)
20:26 <@kanzure> can you describe your links please
20:26 <@kanzure> status/2797whatever isn't descriptive
20:26 <@kanzure> and TM-AfbhSU isn't either
20:26 < heath> make magazine girl riding around on a segbot
20:27 < wrldpc> transfer rates in the states are criminal.
20:27 <@kanzure> /fun-places-on-the-internet-in-1995/ was reasonable descriptive
20:27 <@kanzure> *reasonably
20:27 < wrldpc> Even on base we get price gouged for shit service … you step off base and you pay 1/3 the price for 4 times the speed.
20:27 < heath> http://instagram.com/makemagazine
20:27 <@kanzure> heath: i'm worried about your health
20:27 <@kanzure> you're chewing javascript and linking to instagram and twitter
20:28 < heath> heh
20:28 < heath> you definitely should be worried sir
20:29  * heath needs a better way to link  content..
20:29 < juri_> kanzure: any opinion on that 'printer' i linked to?
20:30 <@fenn> i think you're supposed to skeptically raise eyebrows
20:30 <@fenn> juri_: what is it supposed to do exactly?
20:30 <@kanzure> juri_: if it's not documented, you should assume it doesn't exist
20:30 <@kanzure> even if there's a pretty pic.
20:30 < juri_> pick up cell A, and drop in position B.
20:30 <@fenn> but why would you do that?
20:30 < juri_> kanzure: nods. thats why i've started from scratch.
20:30 <@kanzure> that's not how cell printers work
20:31 < juri_> yea, picking up cells, while a neat trick, doesn't seem very efficient when you can get them in solution.
20:31 <@fenn> (fwiw "cell printers" i know of are essentially inkjets that shoot some sort of gel matrix that is seeded with stem cells)
20:32 <@fenn> or progenitor cells
20:32 <@fenn> now that would be useful, and not just for bio hacking
20:33 <@fenn> mumble jeff something wax printer http://ourduino.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/printing-wax-onto-pcbs-simple-quick-diy-pcbs/
20:34 <@kanzure> also, in a practical sense, you could probably get a dialysis machine working more quickly
20:34 <@fenn> high resolution 3d solids in any subtrate would be useful
20:34 <@fenn> yeah what's up with dialysis.. why are the machines so big and klunky
20:34 <@fenn> a kidney does it in a volume the size of a kidney
20:36 <@fenn> a portable unit can have lower performance since you wear it for longer
20:36 <@kanzure> size don't matter if you got no working kidneys left
20:36 <@fenn> anyway it doesn't fix the root cause, which is poor diet
20:37 <@fenn> it's much more fun to think about designing machines than to think about .. evolution, and not eating bread or 90% of the stuff in the grocery store
20:37 <@kanzure> go buy a dialysis machine on ebay, get it to work and make sure your dad doesn't fucking die
20:37 <@kanzure> a cell printer is neat and useful, but probably not in time to matter
20:40 <@kanzure> oh hey they are pretty cheap. <$5k.
20:40 <@kanzure> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=dialysis+machine+&_sacat=0&_from=R40
20:41 <@fenn> this would be great if i could read the fucking text!!! http://bigdandme.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/hello-%E2%80%98wearable-kidney%E2%80%99-goodbye-dialysis-machine/wak-schematic/
20:43 <@fenn> looks like there are quite a lot of these devices
20:44 <@fenn> all in some stage of development
20:44 <@fenn> this is basically reverse osmosis with feedback right?
20:45 <@kanzure> not sure if feedback is required?
20:47 <@fenn> the dialysate buffer is all that is different from regular reverse osmosis
20:47 <@fenn> the ion concentration in the buffer cause preferential osmosis of ions that aren't in the buffer
20:48 <@fenn> bleah
20:49 <@fenn> omg this man is my hero
20:49 <@fenn> "Dr. Willem Kolff, a Dutch physician, constructed the first working dialyzer in 1943 during the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands.[5] Due to the scarcity of available resources, Kolff had to improvise and build the initial machine using sausage casings, beverage cans, a washing machine, and various other items that were available at the time. "
20:49 <@kanzure> yessss
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20:50 <@fenn> i was pissed off at the episode of "house" where they had Amber on life support so everyone could say goodbye, and there was like zero discussion of artificial organs
20:51 <@fenn> "she would never qualify"
20:52 <@kanzure> how do dialysis scams work? it looks like there are dialysis facilities that people are shuttled to, instead of owning the machines. why?
20:52 <@fenn> something about medicare requirements
20:53 <@kanzure> surely owning the machine would cost less than the price that each facility pays (healthcare industry always pays more, etc..)
20:54 <@fenn> but the patient isn't paying for it
20:55 <@kanzure> not everyone qualifies for medicare
20:55 <@fenn> The dialysis empire is run by CEO Kent Thiry, who dresses like one of the Three Musketeers, has adopted a company slogan of 'One for all and all for one' and in company staff meetings leads his employees, who he calls villagers, in cheers of "DaVita!"
20:56 <@kanzure> i don't think i qualify for medicare
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20:56 <@kanzure> "DaVita has grown in the past couple of years and now runs roughly 2,000 dialysis clinics across the country, which has added up to a $7 billion business."
20:56 <@kanzure> $7 billion to operate these $500 machines?
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20:57 <@fenn> where'd you get that number?
20:57 < brownies> damn. what kind of margin do they make?
20:57 <@kanzure> http://www.rosespeaks.com/tag/dialysis-empire-is-run-by-ceo-kent-thiry/
20:58 <@fenn> i'm seeing more like $4k "refurbished" so more like $20k new
20:58 <@kanzure> let's see.. http://www.billpeckham.com/from_the_sharp_end_of_the/2010/01/the-business-of-dialysis-revenue-margin-and-profit.html
20:58 <@fenn> good luck getting a real price quote on anything like that
20:58 <@kanzure> "In the third quarter of 2009 their total revenue from Dialysis and Related Lab Services was $1,490,000,000 and their margin was $260,000,000."
20:59 < brownies> 18%
20:59 <@kanzure> "The Renal Fellow Network calculates the yearly per patient average revenue, additionally, the average yearly per patient margin would be $9,360."
20:59 <@fenn> that's not a very high margin
20:59 <@kanzure> "That makes the average yearly per patient profit $3,744"
21:00 <@kanzure> this one says 1.3% http://www.renalbusiness.com/news/2010/12/medpac-estimates-13-dialysis-medicare-margin-in-2011.aspx
21:00 < brownies> no, it's a pretty bad margin
21:01 <@kanzure> "The Medicare margin for clinics affiliated with the two largest chains—DaVita and Fresenius—was 4.4 percent that year,"
21:01 <@kanzure> oh, medicare margin. not margin.
21:01 < brownies> what's the medicare margin?
21:01 < brownies> as in, margin on medicare patients?
21:01 <@fenn> still, they're throwing brand new drugs in the trash. where does all that go in the accounting?
21:02 <@kanzure> it might be margin on medicare grants(?) i dunno how it works. maybe they get reimbursed at a standard rate.
21:02 <@fenn> pardon the link to cnn http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/30/health/medicare-fraud-case/index.html
21:02 <@kanzure> ah it's reimbursement
21:03 < brownies> what % of their patients are on Medicare?
21:03 < brownies> eh, probably a relatively high number? >25% ?
21:03 <@kanzure> it might be all of it?
21:03 <@kanzure> "Because Medicare patients produce roughly 50 percent of DaVita's dialysis revenue and dialysis patient service operating revenues account....."
21:04 < brownies> holy shit, though. if they make 4% margin on 50% of their patients, their total net margin is 18% on their whole customer base...
21:04 < brownies> so 32% mark-up for the non-medicare folks -_-
21:05 <@fenn> that sounds backwards
21:05 <@fenn> who's paying for the non-medicare people?
21:05 <@kanzure> why? non-medicare folks need the service.
21:05 <@kanzure> non-medicare folks are probably those people who don't qualify due to income.
21:05 < brownies> non-medicare = people with private insurance, or younger folks who aren't old enough for medicare, or something like that, right?
21:06 <@kanzure> oh sorry i'm thinking of medicaid
21:06 <@kanzure> yes, medicare is for the elderly (or disabled)
21:06 <@fenn> disabled, like, people who are dying of kidney failure?
21:06  * fenn scratches his head in confusion
21:06 <@kanzure> but the davita lawsuit was for both medicare and medicaid
21:07 < ArmilusDajjal> whatever happened to good old natural selection
21:07 <@kanzure> hehehe "Medicare and Medicaid fraud has been estimated at $60 billion a year,"
21:07 <@fenn> is that all
21:07 <@kanzure> "About 66% of DaVita's revenue comes from either Medicare or Medicaid. "
21:07 <@kanzure> what
21:08 <@kanzure> "Medicare and Medicaid comprise 90% and 66% of DaVita's treatments and revenues respectively,"
21:08 < ArmilusDajjal> INAGODDA DaVita
21:09 < brownies> wait what
21:09 <@kanzure> "Medicaid is mostly for people who have no health insurance and are low income. Medicaid requirements are handled state by state but generally the qualifications are you cannot have more than $2000 dollars, a car worth more than $4500 dollars, and an extremely low to no monthly income. "
21:09 <@kanzure> http://forums.davita.com/showthread.php?973-Medicaid
21:11 <@fenn> you cannot have more than $2000?
21:11 <@kanzure> yeah so medicaid only covers you if you're up to 1.33x the poverty line, which is like $25k/year or something stupid
21:12 <@kanzure> so everyone else is probably paying out of pocket or with private insurance
21:12 <@fenn> you can't even get your teeth cleaned for that much money
21:13 <@kanzure> brownies: their medicaid stats should be public since they are a public company, right?
21:14 < brownies> yes
21:14 <@kanzure> their 10-K ?
21:14 < brownies> but data about government spending is always damned difficult to track down, let alone parse and understand
21:14 < brownies> 10-K would be a good place to start.
21:14 <@kanzure> http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=76556&p=IROL-secToc&TOC=aHR0cDovL2FwaS50ZW5rd2l6YXJkLmNvbS9vdXRsaW5lLnhtbD9yZXBvPXRlbmsmaXBhZ2U9ODA5MTg4MQ==&sXBRL=1
21:15 <@kanzure> medicaid is 5% of their revenue
21:16 <@kanzure> "The payments we receive from commercial payors generate nearly all of our profits."
21:17 <@kanzure> weird. 11% of the patients were paying with commercial insurance, generating 34% of dialysis revenue.
21:18 <@kanzure> so i guess nobody is paying out of pocket?
21:18 <@kanzure> what happens if you make >1.3x the poverty line, your kidneys fail, and you have no insurance because pre-existing condition?
21:19 <@fenn> you don't get dialysis, that's why they don't have any customers paying out of pocket
21:20 <@kanzure> oh right there's "home dialysis" commercials all the time
21:20 <@fenn> (you added up the percentages? i wasn't really paying attention)
21:20 <@kanzure> "For dialysis, either home or incenter between $3000US - $5000USer month "
21:20 <@kanzure> that's a pretty big gap from the top of the poverty line
21:22 <@kanzure> oh i see.. stage 5 kidney failure patients qualify for medicare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_Stage_Renal_Disease_(US_Federal_Program) makes sense.
21:24 <@fenn> " the composite rate is adjusted up or down by a geographic wage adjustment. The final adjustment is for case mix; certain beneficiary characteristics trigger composite rate adjustments. These are based on age, body surface area and body mass index"
21:24 <@kanzure> "Incenter dialysis and home hemodialysis are reimbursed to exactly the same amounts in the United States under the ESRD program. From CMS's point of view any form of dialysis is still more expensive than renal transplantation if looked at over a three-year period."
21:24 < brownies> why are you guys so into dialysis all of a sudden anyway?
21:25 <@fenn> it's easier than doing my homework :\
21:25 <@kanzure> ...
21:25 <@kanzure> " Nosé's machine consisted of a coil (to transport the blood) placed in a household (electric) washing machine filled with dialysate. It did not have a pump and blood transport through the coil was dependent on the patient's heart. The dialysate was circulated by turning on the washing machine (which mixed the dialysate and resulted in some convection) and Nosé's experiments show that this indeed improved the clearance of toxins."
21:25 <@kanzure> brownies: oh, juri_ has a parent that's gonna die
21:26 <@kanzure> and i was saying a dialysis machine is more practical than building a cell printer
21:26 < brownies> oh. =/
21:26 < brownies> fenn: they let your dirty hippie self into a school?
21:26 <@kanzure> and then i was curious why they were so cheap on ebay, considering they are medical equipment
21:26 <@fenn> brownies: also the concept of artificial organs is interesting in general, and i have a morbid fascination with broken healthcare systems
21:26 <@kanzure> fenn: you missed the washing machine quote
21:26 <@kanzure> "In the early 1970s, approximately 40% of patients used it. Today, it is used by approximately 0.4%"
21:27 <@fenn> "it" meaning what?
21:27 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_hemodialysis
21:28 <@fenn> well duh
21:28  * fenn sighs
21:29 <@kanzure> so, a washing machine is pretty simple
21:29 <@fenn> this stuff isn't magic
21:30 <@kanzure> then why are they paying $3000/mo for this non-magic
21:30 <@fenn> the trick is not getting infections when you have a tube in your artery for years
21:30 <@fenn> they charge so much because they can
21:30 <@fenn> what are you gonna do, not get dialysis?
21:31 <@fenn> same as any healthcare
21:31 <@kanzure> well it didn't even occur to juri_ to just get the damn machine -_-
21:31 <@kanzure> i'm sure there's some supplies that cost a bit, but i dunno about $3000/mo..
21:34 <@fenn> i wonder if the same strategy used for seeding pig livers with human stem cells works for livers
21:34 <@fenn> er, kidneys
21:34 <@fenn> basically use the collagen in the existing organ as a scaffold
21:35 <@fenn> make sure to wash out all the existing cells with a harsh detergent
21:35 <@fenn> that would be a neat science fair project
21:35 <@fenn> the irony is you'd probably get expelled for "cruelty to animals" or somesuch
21:36 <@fenn> meanwhile everyone gobblin their fried chicken
21:38 <@fenn> if you eat your experiments afterwards does that make it okay?
21:39 < yashgaroth> if that experiment is successful, does it become cannibalism
21:39 <@fenn> auto-cannibalism
21:40 <@kanzure> don't we just call that an immune response?
21:40 <@fenn> wait, what?
21:41 <@kanzure> immune rejection
21:41 <@fenn> if the experiment is successful, the organ becomes a "part" of you
21:41 <@kanzure> and another name for auto-cannibalism is immune something or other
21:41 <@fenn> if the experiment is unsuccessful, you eat the organ, and it becomes a "part" of you, but in a different way
21:41 <@kanzure> ah.
21:43 < yashgaroth> oh and fenn since no one appears to have answered, GBS is http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1
21:48 <@fenn> man what a waste of a day
21:53 < ParahSailin> going to austin tomorrow
21:53 <@fenn> juri_: if you are worried about developing diabetes, i suggest you buy a copy of and read "the anti aging zone", or if you don't have time for a whole book, at least read this http://www.drsears.com/portals/6/Documents/Inflammation%20Medical%20Brochure.pdf
21:53 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: we could hang out, and if you need a place to stay let me know
21:54 <@fenn> although i doubt that brochure makes a lot of sense unless you know what it's talking about to begin with
21:54 < ParahSailin> we're staying at a hotel
21:54 < ParahSailin> but could i get your number?
21:54 <@kanzure> 512-203-0507
21:54 < ParahSailin> we could do dinner or some other meal
21:54 <@kanzure> sounds good to me
21:55 <@kanzure> i am awake during most hours of the day, so just pick a few
21:56 < ParahSailin> you have any suggestions of stuff to do? gf is coming along, we're probably doing most of the first time in austin stuff like capitol, museums, state park
21:56 <@kanzure> it's the right time of the year to go to the bridge and get pooped on by bats
21:56 <@kanzure> oh wait, no. that might have been october.
21:57 <@kanzure> yep they've migrated already, sucks to be you
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21:58 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: http://atxhackerspace.org/ has some okay people
22:01 <@kanzure> there's a wildflower museum since you seem to be into museums
22:02 < ParahSailin> im not, gf is
22:03 <@kanzure> there's a bioinformatics startup called lab7 somewhere in austin that might be interesting to visit
22:03 <@kanzure> oh it's saturday.. no idea if they are into weekends
22:10 <@kanzure> brownies: the other reason is that there might be pent-up demand for open source dialysis machines, which would be interesting to explore
22:11 <@fenn> open source medical anything is a clusterfuck waiting to happen
22:11 <@kanzure> "assemble your own life-saving thing" what could go wrong
22:13 <@fenn> i wonder if we'll get into a situation like with gun manufacturing, where you're legally allowed to make your own medical devices, but only can sell them with prohibitively expensive testing and certification
22:13 <@kanzure> i'm sure that's already the case.
22:13 <@fenn> is it? am i legally allowed to make my own medical devices?
22:13 <@kanzure> oh, for yourself? hrm.
22:14 <@fenn> and am i allowed to tell others how to do so?
22:14 <@fenn> not like your opinion counts
22:14 <@kanzure> no, i don't happen to know case law on this one
22:14 <@fenn> i should make some list of questions for next time i bump into a lawyer
22:15 < brownies> kanzure: it does seem like an interesting market
22:15 <@kanzure> brownies: i keep hearing these tales of people paying >$10k/mo for blood treatments in some rare blood diseases
22:16 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: you wouldn't happen to know the names of these diseases, would you?
22:16 < yashgaroth> like hemophilia?
22:16 < yashgaroth> anemias
22:17 <@kanzure> i dunno, the more expensive the better
22:17 <@kanzure> also, could dialysis get alcohol out of the blood stream?
22:17 <@fenn> yep
22:17 < yashgaroth> the ones I know all require factors sourced from human blood, I dunno about dialysis and other machine-based ones
22:18 <@kanzure> why aren't they standard in vehicles then
22:18 <@fenn> dialysis is prescribed for isopropanol poisoning
22:18 <@kanzure> neat
22:19 <@fenn> well, i think breathalyzers should be a standard feature, but dialysis is going a bit far
22:19 <@fenn> there's a high risk of blood poisoning if the machine isn't perfectly clean
22:20 <@fenn> also, how are you going to put needles in your veins when you're sloppy drunk?
22:20 <@kanzure> it's a prototype there are bound to be flaws
22:21 <@kanzure> possibly life-threatening flaws
22:21 < ParahSailin> how about a celephone charger that hooks into a vein that runs off an ethanol fuel cell
22:21 < yashgaroth> "I swear I'm not trying to dialyze alcohol out of my blood, officer, I'm uhh...a heroin addict?"
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22:59 <@kanzure> oh right have you pdx people assimilated lichen or BioGuy yet?
23:15 <@fenn> juri_: also it seems that magnesium deficiency causes insulin resistance
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23:33 < juri_> sorry, was repairing LCD monitors. one success, one failure.
23:33 < juri_> yes, i realize i could be more practical, and hook him up with a machine... but not everyone can do that, and me being myself, ive always shot for the 'everyone can do this' solutions.
23:34 <@kanzure> wtf? why can't everyone use a dialysis machine?
23:34 < juri_> if it doesn't scale, it really doesn't enter into my thought paterns.
23:34 <@kanzure> how does it not scale? it's a giant washing machine.
23:34 < juri_> everyone can use one, but not everyone who needs one has a child who can just get / fix one.
23:35 <@kanzure> if that's the source of the problem, then a printer would also be problematic
23:35 <@kanzure> because they can't do implant surgery
23:35 < juri_> he's not to that point yet, anyways. not a stage i like to think about.
23:35  * juri_ nods.
23:35 < juri_> i can only solve the problems within my skillset, and that's one i can't solve.
23:35 <@kanzure> building a dialysis machine is orders of magnitude easier
23:36 < juri_> i CAN solve 'make 3d printers useful for biomatter'.
23:36 <@kanzure> um.
23:36 <@kanzure> fenn: help me out here. i can't tolerate this for long.
23:36 < juri_> kanzure: take it a little less seriously.
23:36 <@kanzure> death?
23:36 < juri_> my father's not at stage 5 yet.
23:37 < juri_> death is a problem we all have.
23:37 <@kanzure> no, i will be as serious as i want to be
23:37 < juri_> when he needs a machine, you're right, i'll have to get ahold of one.
23:37 < juri_> but for now.. i'm shooting for the 'big' target.
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23:50 <@kanzure> JayDugger: hi.
23:50 < JayDugger> Good evening!
23:57 <@fenn> ah finally found an explanation of _why_ diabetes leads to kidney failure
23:58 <@fenn> "glycosylation endproducts (AGEs) accumulate on the walls of the blood vessels in the kidneys, which makes the nephrons' filters too porous or leaky. As a result, protein molecules begin to slip through the kidneys' filters and into the urine."
23:59 <@fenn> "and, of all things, frequent bouts of the hiccups, which for some reason often accompany kidney failure" sounds like a straightforward case of magnesium deficiency to me
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 15 00:00:57 2012