--- Log opened Sat Dec 15 00:00:57 2012
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00:03 <@fenn> oh, glycation, not glycosylation
00:08 <@fenn> Alagebrium, an anti-AGE drug "is that it is not a difficult compound to synthesize. An active black market arose very quickly after the early Phase I and II tests ended. Independent, lab-tested, certified for purity product was available for a short time on the grey market at about $3 per gram."
00:08 <@fenn> where can i get this stuff?
00:09 <@fenn> juri_: that's what you should be working on, grey-market drug synthesis
00:10 <@fenn> drugs work, people just can't get them
00:11 <@fenn> "Although Alagebrium has shown very promising Phase I and II clinical trials, active research stopped because Alteon had run out of operating cash."
00:11 <@fenn> and nobody's heard of it since
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00:20 < juri_> mm. not even tempting; i don't mind enabling geeks, but i could never sleep again if i manufactured things that hurt people... again.
00:21 < JayDugger> Ambien would take care of that, just fine.
00:24 <@fenn> i'm not following your logic. what's hurting who how?
00:27 < juri_> oh, i simply don't know enough chemestry, plus would hate to give people something that caused cancer later-in-life.
00:28 <@fenn> beats dying of diabetes when you're young
00:28 < JayDugger> Ditto.
00:29 <@fenn> don't let a possible future danger outweigh a clear and present danger
00:30 <@fenn> anyway if chemistry isn't your thing, that's fine
00:32 <@fenn> it's understandable that nobody's interested in chemistry, when we aren't exposed to it (how many chemical engineers do you know) and effectively not allowed to do it as a hobby
00:32 < juri_> my things are good documentation, 3d printing, image recognition, clustering, and virtualization. I also program in pretty much every language i come into contact with.
00:33 < juri_> given that skillset, improving the documentation and technology for 3d printing biomaterials makes sense, if i want to be helpful.
00:34 < juri_> sorry if i sound disconnected. i've been up way too long, on way to little of sleep.
00:34 <@fenn> might i suggest helping out with basic cad software
00:35 <@fenn> i mean it's really pathetic what we're dealing with
00:35 <@fenn> every other year someone comes out with another half-assed CSG modeler
00:36 <@fenn> i really liked implicitcad but it currently has severe implementation bugs
00:36 <@fenn> also there's the whole issue of part assembly and constraints
00:36 < juri_> I'll be doing that 'naturally', as implicitcad is my go-to language of choice for designing new parts.
00:37 <@fenn> i'm sort of confused why no cad programs allow you to design by manufacturing operation
00:38 <@fenn> it's all pure geometry and you have to keep in mind how you're supposed to actually make the damn thing
00:38 <@fenn> you should give the computer a set of machining operations or bending operations or whatever, and specify the interfaces and let it come up with the optimum solution
00:40 <@fenn> even reprap has pretty severe shape constraints
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03:16 < wrldpc> has anyone printed the wiki weapon?
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04:20 < JayDugger> Wrldpc, do you mean anyone at all, or anyone here?
04:21 < JayDugger> At least major printed sub-assembly got tested to destruction, according to their blogs.
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04:32 < wrldpc> the latter
04:33 < JayDugger> I haven't, but I have no place to test fire it. My neighbors are sissies and the local indoor ranges fussy.
04:34 < JayDugger> I've an ex-co-worker who might try it in a year or two.
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07:05 < kirka> Hi, kanzure
07:07 < kirka> kanzure I have three paywalled papers
07:08 < kirka> kanzure If you like, you could add them to your collection
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07:43 < kirka> Some insight into Zyvex' splitting: http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2007/04/16/story5.html?page=all
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09:03 < eudoxia> i heard zyvex had like 80 projects before they changed director and fired Merkle and co.
09:03 < eudoxia> then they had 3 or something lol
09:07 < kirka> Hehe
09:07 < kirka> Wait
09:07 < kirka> Von Ehr was always a founder
09:12 < kirka> kanzure eudoxia http://rghost.ru/42266618
09:12 < kirka> Good articles.
09:14 <@kanzure> what is 422666618?
09:14 <@kanzure> fenn: i don't think juri_ is capable of reasoning in that sense
09:15 < kirka> kanzure Some paywalled articles, including that paper on DNA channel
09:15 <@kanzure> what is the doi or title
09:16 < kirka> http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1225624
09:16 <@kanzure> i guess i deserved that -_-
09:16 <@kanzure> you can't answer one obscure link with another one
09:16 < kirka> If you don't need it, it's ok, heh
09:16 <@kanzure> ok what you should have said is this:
09:16 <@kanzure> "Synthetic Lipid Membrane Channels Formed by Designed DNA Nanostructures"
09:16 < kirka> Ok
09:16 <@kanzure> that's way more descriptive than 42266618 or 1225624
09:17  * kanzure leaves
09:17 < eudoxia> oh the moriarty paper
09:17 < kirka> Yep.
09:18 < eudoxia> so the grant ends in a couple weeks
09:18 < eudoxia> maybe he's secretly already implemented the minimal toolset, hahaha
09:18 < eudoxia> sigh
09:18 < kirka> Hehehe
09:19 < kirka> >Ends:31 March 2014
09:19 < kirka> If he hasn't already, he has only 15 months left
09:19 < kirka> He should hurry
09:20 < kirka> Or his UHV-STM chamber will turn into a pumpkin
09:20 < eudoxia> i thought it ended in 2013
09:22 < eudoxia> you're right
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09:27 < kirka> Brenner's potential is interesting
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09:31 < eudoxia> btw kirka check your inbox
09:31 < kirka> >Google+
09:31 < kirka> >Social network
09:32 < kirka> I don't like them
09:36 < kirka> But it's ok to mail me
09:36 < eudoxia> what's that thing about data mining
09:38 < kirka> I'm stidying machine learning (in application to computer vision), so I don't want to be the object for these algorithms, heh
09:39 < eudoxia> i wouldn't worry much about data mining, at least in a dataset with a billion other people you'd be just a tiny data point
09:39 < kirka> It's irrational
09:39 < kirka> And social networks can take a lot of time
09:40 < eudoxia> i wish they took more of my time, i can't spend more than a few idle seconds on facebook without closing the tab
09:41 <@kanzure> maybe you need better friends
09:41 <@kanzure> that post interesting things
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09:56 < AdrianG> are you an interesting friend kanzure
09:58 <@kanzure> why are you here? can't you just leave and never return?
09:59 < eudoxia> is AdrianG bad?
09:59 < eudoxia> i always confuse him with the other guy, the one who still posts on technocalypse
09:59 < AdrianG> no :< I'll be good.
09:59 < AdrianG> eudoxia: kanzure dislikes my non-conventional grammar.
10:00 <@kanzure> i dislike your stupidity
10:00 <@kanzure> if you have nothing to say, stfu
10:06 < docl> hi eudoxia
10:06 < docl> how's it going?
10:08 < eudoxia> hey docl
10:08 < eudoxia> shit's great
10:08 < docl> I just started a cryonics improvement forum at bettercryonics.com, thought you might be interested.
10:09 < docl> I've only put in a few articles for structure and such so far.
10:09 < eudoxia> yay i can loose that yahoo account
10:10 <@kanzure> loose? lose?
10:10 < docl> let it out of its cage!
10:10 < docl> way to correct spellingz man
10:11 < AdrianG> im not stupid.
10:11 < AdrianG> i r genias.
10:11 < docl> d'aw, so cute!
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10:12 <@kanzure> no geniasses allowed
10:12 < eudoxia> lose*
10:12  * docl meekly stops baiting kanzure
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10:41 < docl> eudoxia: for my forum, I figure the best thing is to focus on science topics at first. let the community stuff build around that.
10:42 < eudoxia> docl: i suppose
10:42 < kirka> docl That's good approach
10:42 < eudoxia> docl have i already shown you the cryonics article in the h+ wiki?
10:43 < eudoxia> http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Cryonics
10:43 < eudoxia> it has a list of everyone who's been cryopreserved except some of the latest cases
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10:44 < AdrianG> see what he does :<
10:46 < docl> eudoxia: woah, that's a big list.
10:46 < eudoxia> thanks, i did my best
10:47 < docl> good for future reanimators to have.
10:47 < eudoxia> hah, yeah
10:48 < eudoxia> i tried to get the pictures where they looked youngest
10:48 < eudoxia> see ettinger and leaf
11:00  * kirka signs in relief: he doesn't need to think about cryonics
11:00 < eudoxia> russians and their permafrost
11:02 < kirka> heh
11:02 < docl> I'm not committed to a particular forum style yet, but I like the idea of something that works well on mobile.
11:03 <@kanzure> like email!
11:03 < eudoxia> hey i just remembered and you guys aren't going to believe this, but yesterday at work the subject of cryonics came up
11:04 < docl> cool
11:04 < eudoxia> walt disney, frozen, and one guy said that thing about the ice crystals smashing the cells
11:04 < eudoxia> but i didn't say anything because i would've looked like a crazy cultist who actually knows cryonics companies' procedures
11:05 < jrayhawk> did cryo companies have procedures back then
11:05 < docl> well, darn
11:05 < eudoxia> well, at least one person had been frozen the same year walt died
11:06 < eudoxia> but it was a cosmetic preservation, straight-frozen to liquid nitrogen temperature
11:06 < eudoxia> http://wiki.transhumani.com/images/7/70/FirstWomanSuspended.jpg
11:06 < eudoxia> "The patient had been stored at above-freezing temperature in a mortuary refrigerator after being embalmed for two months before being straight-frozen to liquid nitrogen temperature."
11:07 < AdrianG> suspended kind of implies they were able to revive
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11:18 < eudoxia> well maybe the embalming did something
11:18 < eudoxia> mike darwin was going to write an article about pedro ara's embalming techniques and high-temperature vitrification but i don't think that's up yet
11:18 <@kanzure> mike's the guy behind chronopause, right?
11:19 < eudoxia> yeah
11:25 < kirka> You know, in semiconductor journals they say that Moore's law is slowing down.
11:25 < kirka> >Chang said that Moore’s Law is slowing and chip-production costs continue to soar.
11:25 < kirka> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/other/4390409/Is-the-cost-reduction-associated-with-IC-scaling-over-
11:25 < kirka> Time to adopt new process rises slightly with 22 nm, 14 nm nodes
11:25 < kirka> Price per transistor begins to grow
11:26 < kirka> 14 nm requires triple patterning (there is still no comercial EUV)
11:26 < jrayhawk> wafer production costs continue to soar; chip production costs are mostly stagnant at this point
11:27 < kirka> http://chipdesignmag.com/images/uploads/0911CderFig2_Wafer_Cost.jpg ?
11:34 < kirka> That means poor "moore's law will solve my problems" guys are wrong.
11:34 < kirka> You knew that, of course.
11:42 < archels> Should we still call it Moore's law when it comes to other substrates?
11:47 < ThomasEgi> archels, do you have graphene in mind?
11:47 < ThomasEgi> or diamonds?
11:48 < kirka> For me the most important thing is that someone should do it instead of taking it for granted.
11:49 < AdrianG> ok so you ppl are into diybio
11:49 < AdrianG> how do i prepare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_lipid_nanoparticle#Use_for_drug_delivery
11:50 < AdrianG> kirka: i think intel will prove chang wrong.
11:51 < archels> ThomasEgi: carbon-based comes to mind, but not necessarily that. Probably not down to quantum computing though.
11:52 < archels> perhaps as rudimentary as 3D silicium
11:52 < kirka> >quantum computing
11:52 < kirka> You are saying like it's easy, heh
11:52 < kirka> EUV could be of help.
11:52 < archels> I was hoping to place that aside for this discussion, because it's in a class of its own
11:53 < archels> EUV and FinFETs seem to be the industry's bet right now
11:53 < kirka> EUV lags
11:53 < archels> hence why Moore's law lags :)
11:54 < kirka> Intel says about triple patterning on 14 nm node
11:54  * archels wonders if e-beam lithography will ever really take off
11:55 < kirka> Creating 14 nm features with 193 nm light costs much
11:55 < kirka> archels I have read about http://www.mapperlithography.com/news/2012
11:56 < kirka> Looks promising
11:57 < AdrianG> why arent they using x-ray frequencies yet
11:57 < kirka> Heh
11:58 < AdrianG> hard xray goes to 10 picometer
11:58 < kirka> They'll create defects in Si crystal
11:58 < AdrianG> wavelength.
11:58 < AdrianG> they do? too energetic?
11:58 < kirka> Thay are almost impossible to control
11:58 < kirka> Yep.
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11:58 < AdrianG> silicon is on its last legs anywya
11:59 < AdrianG> whats the next projected  material?
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11:59 < AdrianG> carbon nanotubes?
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12:03 < kirka> Always windered how do you make enything with carbon nanotubes as raw material
12:03 < kirka> *wondered
12:03 < kirka> *anything
12:04 < AdrianG> in-situ generation?
12:04 < AdrianG> also, did anything come out of this memristor buzz?
12:04 < kirka> >in-situ generation?
12:04 < kirka> How?
12:04 < AdrianG> idk?
12:04 < AdrianG> if i knew - i'd be busy destroying intel
12:04 < AdrianG> or negotiating my sell-out to them at the highest possible price.
12:05 < kirka> >memristor
12:05 < kirka> RRAM seems to mature
12:06 < AdrianG> no production chips yet?
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12:06 < lws> super college?
12:08 < kirka> http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4235304/Elpida-announces-ReRAM-chip
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12:13 < AdrianG> lol struggling ram maker
12:13 < AdrianG> hmm
12:13 < AdrianG> gigabit scale eh
12:13 < AdrianG> wtf
12:13 < eudoxia> i think super college refers to grad school lws
12:14 < lws> Hrm
12:14 < lws> I want to get a PhD...
12:15 <@kanzure> lws: hi.
12:17 < lws> Hello
12:18 <@kanzure> what brings you here?
12:19 < AdrianG> a phd is a waste of time.
12:19 < chris_99> not if you want to work in academia ;)
12:19 <@kanzure> chris_99: not true, there are many non-degree holders that work in academia.
12:19 < AdrianG> second-class citizens.
12:19 < chris_99> maybe, it probably makes it easier to get positions though
12:20 < curt1s> do we have a good biohackery solution for my eczema yet
12:20 < curt1s> its really flaring up bad D:
12:20 < AdrianG> dexmethasone?
12:22 < curt1s> dermatologist gave me some steroid crap
12:22 < curt1s> it works sort of
12:22 < curt1s> but really weakens the skin
12:22 < AdrianG> hydrocortisone?
12:22 < curt1s> not cortisone
12:22 < curt1s> lets see
12:22 < curt1s> triamcinolone
12:22 < AdrianG> oic
12:23 < curt1s> yeah i dont really like to use it so much
12:24 < curt1s> so if i could just trade up for superior genetics
12:24 < curt1s> that would be rad
12:25 < AdrianG> you people ever seen ads asking to reduce hunger? I always feel like they are asking for meth or something.
12:25 < curt1s> lol
12:25 < curt1s> diet pills
12:25 < curt1s> bennies
12:41 < AdrianG> bennies is just meth.
12:46 < lws> I really don't understand why 2-DPMP isn't prescribed for ADHD.
12:47 < kirka> >ADHD
12:47 < kirka> >Doesn't exist
12:47 < lws> Oh yeah?
12:47 < lws> What is it?
12:47 < kirka> Yep. Definetly.
12:47 < lws> So what do the people with those symptoms have?
12:47 < kirka> I haven't seen any
12:48 < AdrianG> r u blind
12:48 < kirka> Well, in Russia ADHD is unheard of.
12:48 < kirka> It's matter of hype
12:48 < kirka> And big pharma creating markets for their "meds"
12:49 < AdrianG> r u in russia
12:49 < kirka> Нуыю
12:49 < kirka> Yes.
12:49 < AdrianG> russia does not even allow their physicians to prescribe amphetamines
12:49 < AdrianG> or methylphenidate
12:49 < AdrianG> instead, they get it from street dealers.
12:49 < kirka> Maybe
12:50 < AdrianG> 70% of meth addicts are simply people with unmedicated ADHD
12:50 < AdrianG> do you have any meth addicts in russia
12:50 < kirka> Probably, I haven't seen any in person
12:50 < kirka> "Mental illness" is very subjective thing
12:50 < AdrianG> adhd is not really a mental illness.
12:51 < kirka> In Russia's past it was used to isolate dissidents from society
12:51 < AdrianG> its a neurologic disorder, used to be called minimal brain dysfunction.
12:51 < kirka> We don't yet know how the brain works
12:52 < kirka> How can we know that some behaveoural patterns are sign of "disorder"?
12:52 < kirka> We don't have biological basis for that
12:52 < lws> That's simply not true.
12:53 < kirka> Well, probably you can find correlation between behavioural patterns and genotype/brain structure etc
12:53 < AdrianG> kirka: that's stupid.
12:53 < AdrianG> adhd is simply a frontal lobe disorder.
12:54 < kirka> But why can you say that this behaviour is wrong?
12:54 < AdrianG> its not a behavioral problem.
12:54 < lws> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=273Os74Rtw4
12:54 < AdrianG> its inability to concentrate, maintain stable attention
12:54 < AdrianG> behavior stems from that.
12:54 < kirka> >frontal lobe disorder
12:54 < kirka> Proofs?
12:54 <@kanzure> kirka: "we don't yet know how the brain works" is a lie
12:54 < AdrianG> kirka: google fmri adhd
12:54 < AdrianG> or genetic studies and D4 polymorphisms.
12:55 < kirka> kanzure "What I cannot build I do not understand"
12:55 <@kanzure> kirka: surely you know that we have many wonderful neuroscience projects; it's not exactly a black box.
12:55 <@kanzure> kirka: maybe you just suck at neuroscience?
12:55 < lws> Autism isn't a disorder either.
12:55 < lws> So says Kirka
12:55 < kirka> Feynamn said so
12:55 <@kanzure> kirka: yes i know who said that quote, so what
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12:55 < AdrianG> yes, understanding is a binary thing
12:55 < AdrianG> black and white, ffs.
12:56 < AdrianG> partial understanding does not exist according to kirka
12:56 < kirka> >we don't yet know how the brain works
12:56 <@kanzure> lws: why are you here again?
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12:57 < kirka> I think that trying to modify subject's behaviour with mind-altering drugs is wrong.
12:57 < kirka> Especially in compulsory manner.
12:57 < lws> Subjects often want help
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12:57 < lws> In the US you voluntarily take the medication
12:58 < kirka> Society hypes them with "drugs will help you" and they eat them, instead of trying to solve their problems themselves
12:58 < kirka> ADHD is also unheard of in Europe.
12:58 < lws> So what is autism?
12:59 < kirka> Some extreme variation of phenotype
12:59 < kirka> If it doesn't bother the subject it's ok
12:59 < lws> heh
12:59 < lws> You're very confused.
13:00 < lws> ADHD is treated with CBT and low dose stimulates usually
13:00 < kirka> And I'm sure that subjects were much less bothered if society didn't mark them as "ill"
13:00 < lws> You still haven't offered any explanation for the paradoxical stimulant response in ADHD patients.
13:00 < kirka> >confused
13:00 < kirka> Nope
13:00 < AdrianG> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_McEwen
13:00 < chris_99> huh, why is ADHD unheard of in europe?
13:00 < Mariu> :p
13:00 < kirka> I haven't heard about ADHD mediaction debate in Europe
13:00 < AdrianG> lol 'unheard of in europe'
13:01 < AdrianG> adhd is very well known in europe.
13:02 < AdrianG> adhd is real.
13:02 < AdrianG> very real.
13:02 < lws> ADHD is differentiable, both in heritability, brain structure, and behavior.   Stimulants provide paradoxical responses in children with ADHD.   It also presents negative symptoms.
13:02 < AdrianG> we just had another person dx'd with it at nootropics chat.
13:02 < kirka> Subjective, it is. As any other mental condition.
13:02 < AdrianG> nope, not subjective
13:02 < lws> Most people want medication, not because of societal pressure, but because they're failing through school/college
13:02 < AdrianG> unable to perform as well as healthy controls - NOT subjective.
13:02 < kirka> lws I think left-hanedness is differentiable too. It's just the question of what to call "normal".
13:03 < AdrianG> left-handedness is not an impairement
13:03 < lws> Left handedness doesn't prevent you from carrying on a conversation.
13:03 < AdrianG> unable to organize your life - is an impairement
13:03 < kirka> I actually know stories about left-handed people, that were compulsory relearned to use right hand. They had serious problems later.
13:04 < Mariu> yes, my case
13:04 < Mariu> and I was in europe
13:04 < Mariu> still m
13:04 < kirka> >carrying on a conversation
13:04 < kirka> If you cannot carry out a conversation, you are marked as ill and compulsory medicated?
13:04 < AdrianG> it is never compulsory
13:04 < AdrianG> are you stupid?
13:04 < kirka> That's ridiculous.
13:04 < AdrianG> people BEG for it.
13:04 < lws> Nobody is talking about compulsory medication
13:04 < kirka> Society made them beg.
13:05 < AdrianG> doctors are very reluctant to prescribe stimulants
13:05 < AdrianG> especially to adults
13:05 < AdrianG> kirka: yes, they fail at life
13:05 < AdrianG> and then they beg for help
13:05 < kirka> Scial pressure is strong, isn;t it? Are they allowed to study if they don't take mediactions?
13:05 < AdrianG> you call it compulsory medication.
13:05 < lws> kirka you are so full of shit.   I am 27 years old and was finally diagnosed with ADHD.
13:05 < AdrianG> kirka is russian.
13:05 < kirka> lws If you like drugs, that;s your choice.
13:05 < AdrianG> russia has a lot of issues with psychiatry.
13:05 < AdrianG> due to abuses of psychiatry under the commie regime.
13:06 < lws> kirka: I was already taking drugs for my ADHD.  I was smoking multiple packs of cigarettes and drinking upwards of 2 pots of coffee a day to stay on task.
13:06 < kirka> >to stay on task
13:06 < lws> kirka: When I got put on medication, I magically stopped doing that.
13:06 < lws> kirka: I am a physicist for a living.  If I can't focus, I can't work.
13:06 < AdrianG> its all about comparision to healthy controls.
13:07 < AdrianG> if you cant keep up with controls, you are not healthy. the end.
13:07 < kirka> That's your choice. I respect it.
13:07 < AdrianG> no matter what measure we are talking about it.
13:07 < kirka> >keep up with controls
13:07 < kirka> That's pure socialism
13:07 < AdrianG> lol wat
13:07 < lws> kirka: You don't respect it, because you don't acknowledge it.   People like you are the reason why people with ADHD who are on medication are looked down upon.
13:07 < AdrianG> kirka is the reason mental illness is stigmatised still.
13:07 < lws> I shouldn't be scorned because I choose to take medication for a condition I have.
13:07 < AdrianG> it is just as legitimate.
13:08 < lws> "I respect it, but I'm going to tell you you're fine and you shouldn't take medication."
13:08 < kirka> Maybe you misunderstood me. I just don't like when, e.g. parents make their shildren be "medicated" with mind altering drugs.
13:08 < lws> Cognitive dissonance at it's finest.
13:08 < kirka> *children
13:08 < AdrianG> because otherwise their kids will fail at life?
13:08 < kirka> Wow
13:08 < AdrianG> should parents be reprimanded for making other choices for their kids as well?
13:09 < kirka> Well, that's one of most serious dangerous choices.
13:09 < kirka> My point of view is libertarian.
13:09 < lws> Bad parent! Don't choose what cereal your children should eat!
13:09 < AdrianG> "mind altering" lol
13:09 < lws> Bad parent! don't choose what clothes your children wear!
13:09 < AdrianG> kirka: is intranasal insulin mind-altering?
13:09 < AdrianG> what about calcium channel blockers ?
13:09 < AdrianG> or TTX sodium channel blockers?
13:09 < kirka> Haven't read/heard/used them
13:10 < AdrianG> epilepsy drugs are mind-altering.
13:10 < lws> How are you even in Hplus if you're against all this stuff?
13:10 < AdrianG> should they stop giving them to children?
13:10 < AdrianG> piracetam - mind altering.
13:10 < kirka> Yes
13:10 < kirka> Nootrope
13:10 < AdrianG> any and all drug that has central effects is mind altering by definition.
13:10 < kirka> Yes it is.
13:10 < AdrianG> should they stop giving them to children?
13:10 < AdrianG> what about omega3? another evil drug?
13:10 < AdrianG> zomg fish oil for kids ?!??!?!?!?
13:10 < AdrianG> srsly.
13:11 < lws> Exercise! Mind altering!
13:11 < kirka> I think that I should inform them on all possible side effects, and if they don't like it, I won't give that to them. Isn't it the only ethical choice?
13:11 < lws> Sugar!  no sugar for you children!
13:11 < AdrianG> kirka: low doses of stimulants are incredibly safe.
13:11 < AdrianG> on the balance of benefits and risks they are a godsend for somebody with adhd.
13:12 < kirka> I would rather become "failure in life" than eating some weird stuff and becoming another human.
13:12 < AdrianG> another human?
13:12 < AdrianG> kirka i think just has a problem with eating chemicals lol
13:12 < eudoxia> maybe the other human is a better human
13:12 < AdrianG> you dont become another human.
13:12 < AdrianG> you become a better self.
13:13 < kirka> eudoxia I think that it's up to subject to decide the best way, as he has free will.
13:13 < eudoxia> oh sure, but children can't consent
13:13 < kirka> Actually that's the large problem with parenting.
13:13 < AdrianG> parents consent on their behalf as legal custodians.
13:13 <@kanzure> lws: i promise we're not usually this stupid in here
13:13 < eudoxia> what AdrianG said
13:14 < AdrianG> if my child will display any symptoms of adhd that I can recognize.
13:14 < eudoxia> it's not just a legal matter, children just can't consent. kids are stupid.
13:14 < AdrianG> I'll have him drugged immediately with "mind-altering drugs"
13:14 < kirka> That's sad.
13:14 < kirka> You know, symptoms of ADHD are som wide
13:14 < AdrianG> kids will never appreciate it ofc.
13:14 < kirka> *so
13:14 < AdrianG> they'll either be mad at u for putting them on drugs
13:15 < kirka> You can find it in any human
13:15 < AdrianG> but if u dont put them on it, they'll be mad for not medicating them
13:15 < kirka> That's your local US consensus
13:15 < AdrianG> kirka: nope, wrong.
13:15 < AdrianG> I did not grow up in the US.
13:16 < AdrianG> never even lived in the US. I came to study in canada, on scholarship, i never left, he he.
13:16 <@kanzure> kirka: i suspect you haven't actually read any of the adhd research
13:16 < eudoxia> let them be mad
13:16 <@kanzure> the stimulant response that lws was talking about isn't just made up
13:16 < AdrianG> kirka's attitude is very common in russia.
13:16 < kirka> kanzure Well, I have, a little.
13:16 <@kanzure> and you think they are lying ?
13:16 < AdrianG> I have relatives in that country, its sad.
13:16 < kirka> I'm not
13:16 <@kanzure> huh?
13:16 < kirka> That's a philosophical problem.
13:16 < AdrianG> enormous stigma against -any- mental illness, even depression
13:16 <@kanzure> i said, do you think those researchers are lying?
13:16 < kirka> Nope
13:16 < AdrianG> nobody thinks depression is real in russia
13:16 < kirka> Well, I don't think so
13:17 < kirka> People get tired from time to time
13:17 < kirka> That means they work too hard and ned rest.
13:17 < kirka> That's all about it.
13:17 <@kanzure> do you have an actual refutation to research about depression, or are you bullshitting us?
13:17 < AdrianG> lol "get tired from time to time"
13:17 < AdrianG> pfft
13:17  * AdrianG gives up on kirka
13:18 < AdrianG> kirka: are you in moscow?
13:18 < kirka> Actually there begins such situation in Russia: in some daycare faculties children eat "food additives" that make them sleep for 2 hours. That make daycare workers' work easier.
13:18 < kirka> Nope
13:18 < kirka> Saint Petersburg.
13:18 <@kanzure> i don't understand why you are bringing up food additives
13:19 <@kanzure> my question was do you have specific research you can cite that disproves depression
13:19 < kirka> Thay are just called so
13:19 <@kanzure> or related diseases.
13:19 < kirka> That's some ыдуузштп ьувсшту
13:19 < kirka> sleeping medcine
13:19 < AdrianG> unfortunately, i think this is just a cultural backlash against abuses of psychiatry during commie times
13:19 < kirka> kanzure How do I "prove disease"?
13:19 <@kanzure> i am having trouble following your line of thought
13:20 < AdrianG> like compulsory medication of "sluggish schizophrenia"
13:20 < kirka> My position is simple
13:20 < AdrianG> he's just been conditioned that way.
13:20 <@kanzure> kirka: i am asking you to cite research that proves that depression isn't a disease
13:20 < kirka> "Mental illnesses are subjective"
13:20 <@kanzure> depression has a distinct neuroanatomical footprint
13:20 <@kanzure> autism does as well
13:20 < kirka> Can you give me a research that proves that it's a disease?
13:20 <@kanzure> yes
13:20 < kirka> I'll read it
13:21 < AdrianG> kirka: are you familiar with dr. salopolsky
13:21 < kirka> But I don't think that it "proves" that fact.
13:21 < AdrianG> pls read his publications.
13:21 < AdrianG> whats next
13:21 < AdrianG> downs syndrome isnt real?
13:21 <@kanzure> kirka: wait while i pull up the papers.
13:21 < kirka> I just hate that I could easiliy be said to have ADHD.
13:21 < kirka> The symtoms are soo wide
13:22 <@kanzure> why do you hate that ?
13:22 < kirka> And any samrt human from math schhol could be described as "having ADHD" or "autism" or "asperger's"
13:22 < AdrianG> they are not wide.
13:22 < AdrianG> adhd is very distinct from autism.
13:22 < AdrianG> or aspergers.
13:22 < kirka> Because I could be drugged and lived another life
13:22 < kirka> Against my will.
13:22 < AdrianG> in fact, i think DSM V is doing great disservice to aspergers.
13:23 <@kanzure> what do you mean "lived another life"
13:23 <@kanzure> i don't understand
13:23 < kirka> Well, drugs change behaviour
13:23 <@kanzure> so does food, so what ?
13:23 < kirka> behaviour influences choices one makes
13:23 < kirka> Drugs change it more radically
13:23 < kirka> Mood, concentration
13:24 < kirka> Maybe my interests were different
13:24 < AdrianG> heh
13:24 < AdrianG> kirka: its very easy to find
13:24 < AdrianG> just do CPT-II.
13:24 <@kanzure> kirka: depression is debilitating and prevents you from making choices.
13:24 <@kanzure> so in those cases you don't even make choices in the first place
13:24 < kirka> Depression just means that you need to rest
13:25 < Mariu> kanzure: indeed
13:25 < AdrianG> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/pebl/index.php?title=PEBL_Continuous_Performance_Test
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13:25 < AdrianG> download it. and test yourself.
13:25 < kirka> Anyway, what's your political/philosophical stance?
13:25 < AdrianG> depression is a very insidious, very harmful disease.
13:25 <@kanzure> kirka: my political stance is that you're full of shit
13:25 < kirka> AdrianG Sorry, don't like tests
13:25 < AdrianG> kirka: why
13:25 < AdrianG> because they produce objective measurements of your behavior?
13:25 <@kanzure> kirka: i think you have been misinformed. depression doesn't mean anything about rest..
13:25 < AdrianG> quantified. solid. numerical.
13:25 < kirka> Thwy are shallow
13:26 <@kanzure> depression doesn't mean you're "sad"
13:26 < kirka> And have no real basis
13:26 <@kanzure> depression doesn't mean that you have had a bad day and are upset
13:26 < AdrianG> kirka: so you cannot measure how memory performs with tests?
13:26 < kirka> Maybe I haven't real depression than, could be. If I'm tired I just go to sleep.
13:26 < kirka> AdrianG Why should I do it?
13:26 <@kanzure> nobody said you were depressed
13:27 < kirka> kanzure Yes
13:27 < AdrianG> kirka: you will know how well your working memory performs. as well as how well is your executive functions are working.
13:27 < AdrianG> its a simple test.
13:27 < kirka> Interesting position you have, deciding future for your children. If may parents were like that, I would be an artist.
13:28 < kirka> AdrianG I'm satisfied with my memory, really.
13:28 < kirka> AdrianG And with my executive functions.
13:28 < AdrianG> kirka: its not about deciding their fate.
13:28 < AdrianG> it is to allow them to enjoy full ability.
13:28 < AdrianG> instead of limping along.
13:28 <@kanzure> kirka: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/data/Journals/PSYCH/5232/yoa40146.pdf
13:28 < AdrianG> would you not buy your children crutches? or tell them to man up and limp along?
13:28 <@kanzure> "unctional Neuroanatomical Substrates of Altered Reward Processing in Major Depressive Disorder Revealed by a Dopaminergic Probe"
13:28 < kirka> Well, on meds they could get BS in colledge, withou they can drop out and become pizza couriers or someting.
13:29 < kirka> kanzure Ok
13:29 < AdrianG> kirka: I have a graduate degree.
13:29 < AdrianG> and I recieved it before I even knew I had ADHD.
13:29 < AdrianG> I knew something was fucked, but never found out until later.
13:30 < kirka> Oh guys, thats's painful question for you, probably
13:30 < kirka> I didn't mean to hurt you
13:30 <@kanzure> ?
13:30 <@kanzure> what ?
13:30 < kirka> I just don't want that my children would be medicated
13:30 < kirka> kanzure That's not about you
13:30 < kirka> AdrianG and lws
13:30 < kirka> *medicated against some subjective illness
13:31 < AdrianG> lol "subjective"
13:31 < AdrianG> it is not subjective.
13:31 < AdrianG> at all.
13:31 < AdrianG> it is very much quantifiable.
13:31 <@kanzure> kirka, if you blow up the cerebellum, is that subjective?
13:31 < kirka> It is. Doctors and association decide what to call an illness.
13:31 <@kanzure> what if you irradiate the amygdala? is that still subjective?
13:31 < AdrianG> kirka: lol who has to decide then?
13:31 < AdrianG> who is the final instance of "objective" truth
13:32 < kirka> kanzure That's extremities
13:32 < eudoxia> if parents can't decide their kids' future, then who will do that? certainly not the kids. the community? the state?
13:32 < kirka> AdrianG That is, there is no.
13:32 < AdrianG> doctors will often prescribe off-label, for a bs dx
13:32 < AdrianG> if they know it will help you.
13:32 < AdrianG> good doctors - help you.
13:32 <@kanzure> kirka: the brain is knowable.
13:32 < AdrianG> nobody, and most certainly in north america is going to medicate somebody compulsory.
13:32 < AdrianG> not even on psychiatric hold.
13:32 <@kanzure> i think you said earlier that we don't understand the brain at all
13:32 < kirka> eudoxia The kids, of course, Parents can propose something, that's all.
13:32 < jrayhawk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc is pretty good for showing both the cognitive and the biochemical side of things
13:33 < AdrianG> lol
13:33 < eudoxia> kids
13:33 < eudoxia> can't
13:33 < eudoxia> consent
13:33 < AdrianG> 5 year old kids will decide
13:33 < AdrianG> about their health
13:33 < AdrianG> an educated choice.
13:33 < eudoxia> and i don't see how that's incompatible with libertarian or anarchist idas
13:33 <@kanzure> let's not bring kids into the question.
13:33 < eudoxia> ideas*
13:33 < kirka> kanzure It is, but we don't have enough information. Just some vague models.
13:33 <@kanzure> they aren't that vague. you should look some time.
13:33 < kirka> eudoxia Why do you take that as imperative?
13:33 < AdrianG> neuropsychiatric tests are not vague.
13:33 < eudoxia> which part
13:33 < AdrianG> either your memory is good, or it isnt.
13:33 < AdrianG> same with attention. its either good, or not.
13:34 < AdrianG> kirka: is dementia real?
13:34 < AdrianG> do you believe its real? or subjectve
13:34 < jrayhawk> http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2012/03/depression-genetic-faustian-bargain.html http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2012/11/inflammation-and-depression-cause-or.html discuss the etiology a little better
13:34 < eudoxia> the part where i said 5 year olds with no sense of rationality or mortality or anything shouldn't make medical decisions
13:34 < AdrianG> jrayhawk: oh pls
13:34 < AdrianG> thats just a very newish theory
13:35 < AdrianG> let it prove itself first.
13:35 < AdrianG> before it becomes THE etiology.
13:35 < jrayhawk> 'The science, doctrine, or demonstration of causes'
13:35 < kirka> Why are some deviations from behavioural mean allowed and some aren't? (assuming they don't harm other subjects like maniac shooting)
13:36 < kirka> eudoxia I always knew what I wanted.
13:36 <@kanzure> kirka: we're still trying to diagnose your understanding of neurobiology first
13:36 < jrayhawk> is this like weirdo nihilism where there are multiple sciences dependant upon agency
13:36 < kirka> eudoxia Why should I think that my children don't know?
13:36 <@kanzure> kirka: i think bringing children into the question is too complex, especially since the basics aren't yet solidifed
13:36 < kirka> kanzure That's question of ethics, not neuroscience.
13:37 < kirka> That's scary
13:37 <@kanzure> if you don't even believe the brain is understandable, then why would you pretend to understand or assume your child's brain can do anything? so leave them out for the moment.
13:37 < eudoxia> oh ethics
13:37 < kirka> Yes, ethics
13:39 < kirka> For me it's imperative not to force other subjects into decisions, especially my children.
13:39 < kirka> I want that others applied the same principle when dealing with me.
13:39 < kirka> Isn't it rational?
13:39 <@kanzure> do you have children?
13:39 < kirka> I just know to much people that don't like their life because someone made decisions for them.
13:40 < kirka> Not yet.
13:40 < kirka> Laso, because I'm not ready for that.
13:40 < kirka> *Also
13:40 <@kanzure> what does any of this have to do with whether or not depression is real
13:40 < kirka> Parenting is a complex thing.
13:40 <@kanzure> i am confused.
13:40 < kirka> If you say that it's illness you make basis for forcing someone to take antidepressants
13:41 < AdrianG> why forcing?
13:41 < AdrianG> nobody is ever forced.
13:41 < AdrianG> they are offered help. yes.
13:41 < kirka> Heh
13:41 < AdrianG> nobody EVER been forcefully medicated for depression.
13:41 < AdrianG> not a single person in the history of this universe.
13:42 < kirka> It's a question of defintion of "applying force". I think lots of people are forced to take medications by social pressure. I find it bad.
13:42 <@kanzure> kirka: saying it's not an illness doesn't make people more healthy
13:42 < jrayhawk> suicidal ideation is a major part of depression, and it is forcibly medicated rather often.
13:43 < kirka> Let the people decide what to do with their bodies and minds.
13:43 <@kanzure> kirka: that's the part of them that is diseased
13:43 < kirka> For me it's natural.
13:43 < kirka> "diseased"
13:43 < kirka> You know, nazis believed that every jew is genetically diseased
13:43 <@kanzure> kirka: yes, it's a disease. things get broken.
13:43 < kirka> And you could say that by phenotype
13:43 <@kanzure> every jew is genetically diseased, and so is everyone else on the planet. who cares?
13:43 < kirka> >broken
13:44 < curt1s> im jew
13:44 < jrayhawk> unfortunately those with suicidal ideation are a major threat to themselves and others and their decisions have a lot of externalities
13:44 < kirka> It's not like the bone is broken
13:44 < curt1s> i have a lot of old jewman conditions
13:44 < curt1s> such as eczema
13:44 < curt1s> blepharitis
13:44 < kirka> jrayhawk I think people have right to die. Isn't it natural?
13:44 < curt1s> above-average nose size
13:44 < curt1s> circumcized dong
13:44 <@kanzure> kirka: the point is that the brain actually changes
13:44 < kirka> curt1s I may have some jewish blood too, but I'm not sure.
13:44 <@kanzure> kirka: depression isn't the brain's normal operating mode.
13:44 < jrayhawk> it's also natural for your psychopaths to murder you
13:45 < kirka> Yes but they aren't different from murderes then
13:45 < kirka> As pedophile isn't different from usual rapist
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13:45 < jrayhawk> at some point economic externalities become an issue.
13:45 < kirka> Isn't that obvious?
13:45 < jrayhawk> I would hope so, but you don't seem to be thinking about them.
13:46 < kirka> So in the end children are forced to take drugs to frow countries' GDP. I knew that haha
13:46 < kirka> jrayhaawk I believe everybody should think for himself
13:46 <@kanzure> the brain is the part that gets broken and thinking is impaired
13:46 < kirka> Actually, isn't there any on libertarian?
13:47 < kirka> kanzure Thinking can work in so diffirent way, that it's complex to syat when it's broken.
13:47 < jrayhawk> If you want to claim that the efficacy and cost of treatment is such that suicide is more prudent under a variety of different value systems, that'd be one thing.
13:47 < kirka> *say
13:47 < jrayhawk> Describing it as virtuous because it's natural is silly.
13:48 < kirka> >efficacy
13:48 < kirka> 5-level plans? Gone through that. There is no country level or society level efficiency.
13:48 < kirka> Guys you look like leftists
13:48 < kirka> I know some
13:48 < kirka> And thwy have similar views
13:48 <@kanzure> do you think that depression is virtuous because it's natural?
13:48 < kirka> E.g. "Society should forcefully vure drug addicts" etc.
13:49 < kirka> I think that children should have infromed choice in case of medication.
13:49 < kirka> That;s all
13:49 <@kanzure> that's not what i asked.
13:49 < AdrianG> kirka has some serious cognitive distortions
13:50 <@kanzure> let him speak
13:50 < AdrianG> whats his obsession with forced treatment
13:50 < AdrianG> nobody is forced.
13:50 < kirka> I think that relation to depression is personal. I know people who like depression.
13:50 < AdrianG> many kids dont take the pills, btw.
13:50 < AdrianG> i know some like that.
13:50 < AdrianG> he told me he'd spit them out every time.
13:50 < kirka> If they like then it's good for them.
13:50 <@kanzure> what
13:51 < jrayhawk> 'forced' might be the wrong word to use. 'coerced' is probably a more useful word.
13:51 < kirka> jrayhawk Indeed.
13:51 < jrayhawk> though the distinction seems a bit silly to me.
13:51 < chris_99> "people who like depression" isn't that an oxymoron?
13:51 < kirka> jrayhawk What's your opinion?
13:51 < kirka> chris_99 I don't think so.
13:52 < kirka> chris_99 They like this mood.
13:52 <@kanzure> it isn't a mood -_-
13:52 < jrayhawk> kirka: so, say you have a penniless hungry person. is it better for that person to steal groceries and go to jail, or better to provide them food stamps?
13:52 < kirka> How do you differentiate?
13:52 < AdrianG> what?
13:52 < kirka> jrayhawk I think they should go to work.
13:53 < kirka> jrayhawk If they steal something it's natural to go to jail.
13:53 < AdrianG> lol
13:53 < jrayhawk> Yes, it is natural.
13:53 < AdrianG> kirka probably thinks schizophrenics must recieve death penalty
13:53 < AdrianG> if they hurt anyone
13:53 < kirka> AdranG Dark mood/ennui and depression?
13:53 < jrayhawk> It does, however, cost ten times as much in externalities for them to go to jail than to be given food stamps.
13:53 < kirka> AdrianG Not at all.
13:53 < kirka> jrayhawk Costs to whom?
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13:54 < jrayhawk> Taxpayers, typically.
13:54 < kirka> Maybe you wanted to say "society" or "collective"?
13:54 < jrayhawk> Inmate costs are around $500/wk and food stamps are around $50/wk
13:54 < jrayhawk> Sure, whatever.
13:54 < AdrianG> its hard to go to work if you are in jail, kirka
13:54 < AdrianG> thats why stamps are better. use logic.
13:54 <@kanzure> AdrianG: hush
13:54 < kirka> -__-
13:54 < AdrianG> kanzure: why u hate me.
13:54 < jrayhawk> It's a useful point.
13:55 < kirka> Oh.
13:55 < AdrianG> I am even spelling properly, u nazi.
13:55 <@kanzure> AdrianG: joey is trying to debug kirka and you keep distracting kirka
13:55 < jrayhawk> eh, i might leave abruptly anyway
13:55 <@kanzure> ah okay
13:55 < kirka> jrayhawk Do you like socialism? Be honest, please.
13:56 < kirka> Your point of view is leftist.
13:56 < jrayhawk> No, I have a strong natural law tendency that actually gives me a similar cognitive distortion as you.
13:56 < jrayhawk> I think stealing $50 from other people is one hell of a lot better than stealing $500 from other people, however.
13:57 < jrayhawk> If it's even appropriate to put it in those terms.
13:57 < kirka> >distortion
13:57 < kirka> How do I know the original information, If everybody has some kind of distortion?
13:57 < kirka> Why not count your own processed information as original in the case?
13:57 < kirka> You know, that's econ. question
13:58 < kirka> If people will know that they will have free lunch, they won't work
13:58 <@kanzure> speak for yourself
13:58 < kirka> And some day there will be 10 freeloaders on one possible jailed
13:58 < jrayhawk> People in jail aren't about to get jobs, either.
13:59 < jrayhawk> By this view all charity is evil.
13:59 < kirka> But thThey made a crime and should be punished (by a contract thwy have with state, called constitution, or federal law)
13:59 < kirka> Tax-payed charity is evil, of course
13:59 < kirka> Why should people who don't work earn money?
14:00 < kirka> That's not evolutionary stable strategy
14:00 < jrayhawk> Food stamps keep people alive. They don't make people comfortable.
14:00 < kirka> Such society will collapse one day
14:00 < kirka> Comfort is relative.
14:00 < kirka> They could work, thwy could grow their own food (there is anough land), but they don't do it
14:01 < kirka> Because they get free breakfast and dinner
14:01 < kirka> Why should I pay for that?
14:01 < kirka> That's a problem with Europe and US now.
14:01 < kirka> Taxes are high, there is a lot of freeloaders.
14:01 <@kanzure> you should pay for it because it is cheaper than paying for them to be in prison
14:02 < AdrianG> jail breakfast sucks. u ever had it?
14:02 < kirka> Actually, they could be forced to pay their debt back
14:02 < kirka> E.g. that stolen food
14:03 < jrayhawk> Self-determinism works only for those that have the privilege of having a sound upbringing.
14:03 < kirka> That's just your personal opinion.
14:04 < kirka> I don;t understand why should it influence other people.
14:04 < kirka> Again, I always knew what I want.
14:04 < jrayhawk> Other people don't have a choice on their upbringing. If you haven't been taught to, for instance, advocate for yourself, it is highly unlikely you will find a job.
14:05 < AdrianG> most penniless hobos are schizophrenics, actually.
14:05 < kirka> -___
14:05 < kirka> -__-
14:05 < AdrianG> the overwhelming part of homeless are.
14:05 < jrayhawk> Your belief in natural law is one that appears to largely be built on a privileged perspective.
14:05 < kirka> I don't think so
14:05 < jrayhawk> I do not wish to attack your privilege; it allows you to be more effective than most people.
14:06 < kirka> It always was built into me.
14:06 < jrayhawk> Just to point out that not everyone is as fortunate.
14:06 < kirka> The only natural way of life.
14:06 < AdrianG> ?
14:06 < AdrianG> the only natural way of life is to be privileged?
14:06 < AdrianG> lol wat
14:06 < AdrianG> jrayhawk: it is a hopeless case thx for trying
14:07 < kirka> I believe in free will, not in natural law.
14:07 < AdrianG> what if your will is impaired
14:07 < jrayhawk> It's more "The natural way of life is for the unprivileged to suffer, and possibly cost the privileged a lot of money."
14:07 <@kanzure> kirka: can you show me where in the brain free will exists?
14:07 < kirka> I think that everything that interferes with free will is evil, and from utilitarian point of view has negative effects on economy.
14:07 < AdrianG> I do not even want to mention abulia.
14:08 < kirka> kanzure I don't know. Can you prove that it doesn't exist?
14:08 < kirka> jrayhawk Nope
14:08 <@kanzure> kirka: i can't prove a negative
14:08 < jrayhawk> "and the privileged will do a lot of ineffectual bitching about the unprivileged because the privileged are tragically myopic about the possibility of uplifting"
14:08 < kirka> jrayhawk I would be an artist if I listened to parents. Mediocre artist probably.
14:09 < kirka> kanzure So that's a question of preference. Does my belief hurt someone?
14:09 < jrayhawk> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=food+stamps you can test your assumptions fairly easily
14:09 <@kanzure> i think your belief is uninformed and you should read more science.
14:09 < kirka> jrayhawk I don't see myself as priviligued in any sense
14:09 < kirka> Middle class income
14:09 < kirka> Like 60% in any developed country
14:09 < kirka> What's privilegued about that?
14:10 < jrayhawk> Where did you learn the value of self-determinism from?
14:10 < kirka> kanzure Here the question becomes even more philisophical and you don't like that.
14:10 < kirka> jrayhawk I don't know
14:10 <@kanzure> who says i don't like it? you're a liar.
14:11 < kirka> jrayhawk I though a lot about subjects and their relations in childhood.
14:11 < kirka> kanzure Sorry, then.
14:11 < jrayhawk> That's good. Most people don't have that opportunity.
14:11 < jrayhawk> Ugh, I need to leave.
14:12 < kirka> jrayhawk I understood that it's not hard to build a house and grow my own food, so I will have possibility of independence anyway.
14:12 < kirka> Bye
14:12 < kirka> Guys, I asked threee times about your political and philosophical stance.
14:12 < kirka> You seem lefties to me.
14:12 <@kanzure> lefty sounds like a useless label to me
14:13 < Mariu> :p
14:13 < kirka> Socialist, communist
14:13 <@kanzure> those terms have a lot of baggage in the US and are not useful
14:13 <@kanzure> because their meaning is so generalized
14:13 < eudoxia> wait i thought everyone here was an anarcho-transhumanist
14:13 < AdrianG> eudoxia: you thought wrong
14:13 < AdrianG> we are all commie lefties.
14:13 <@kanzure> in general, our position is providing extreme carefulness when thinking about issues
14:13 < Mariu> lol
14:13 < kirka> There are different degress, but the main idea is that they place society above individual.
14:13 <@kanzure> subscribing to an entire political banner is going to lead to carelessness
14:14 < kirka> Well, I'm anarcho-capitalist.
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14:14 <@kanzure> who cares
14:14 <@kanzure> the reason why i usually don't allow philosophy in here is because everyone is so awful at it
14:14 < kirka> Hmm.
14:15 < kirka> What's awful about it?
14:15 < kirka> Just generic libertarian philosophy.
14:15 <@kanzure> their understanding of philosophy, transhumanism, and so on.
14:15 <@kanzure> it hurts me.
14:15 < kirka> I'm not h+, just humanist.
14:15 < AdrianG> a label cannot fully describe each persons views and aspirations.
14:15 < kirka> Of course.
14:15 < AdrianG> at most, its  very, very, rough guide perhaps
14:15 <@kanzure> yes, i know you're not interested in self-improvement kirka
14:15 < AdrianG> to the point of useless.
14:15 < kirka> I am
14:15 <@kanzure> kirka: you just said you're not a transhumanist
14:16 < kirka> But there is no need in radical self improvement.
14:16 < kirka> For me, of course.
14:16 <@kanzure> what?
14:16 <@kanzure> what?
14:16 < kirka> What's the difference between humanism and transhumanism?
14:16 <@kanzure> transhumanism is a personal philosophy of technological self-improvement
14:17 <@kanzure> and accelerating returns on top of said improvements
14:17 < kirka> Humanism places human being into the center, and searches for perfection in human sense.
14:17 <@kanzure> i don't think humanism is about perfection, no
14:17 < eudoxia> lol perfection
14:17 < kirka> Why?
14:17 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism doesn't even have the word 'perfect' anywhere
14:18 < AdrianG> lol kirka requires no radical improvement
14:18 < AdrianG> he has achieved perfection.
14:18 < Mariu> :p
14:18 < kirka> Actually, I feel good in this body and mind.
14:18 <@kanzure> nobody said otherwise kirka
14:18 < kirka> I just want to live longer.
14:19 < Mariu> how much longer ?
14:19 <@kanzure> life extension is transhumanist.
14:19 < kirka> Hmmph, wiki [...]
14:19 <@kanzure> i think you have been misinformed about transhumanism.
14:19 < kirka> Then transhumanism is everything
14:19 <@kanzure> what?
14:19 < Mariu> xD
14:19 < jrayhawk> if it helps I don't think I have ever voted anything other than libertarian for president
14:19 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: aren't you supposed to be driving
14:19 < kirka> I think there is a border between radical and conservative slef improvement.
14:20 < jrayhawk> yeah probably
14:20 < kirka> jrayhawk Cool.
14:20 < kirka> E.g. copying one's mind, or seriously altering brain is radical
14:20 < jrayhawk> "Capital L" Libertarianism is pretty much synonymous with "has no real understanding of externalities" to me, though.
14:21 < kirka> While repairing damaged tissue is conservative.
14:21 <@kanzure> why is it conservative?
14:21 < eudoxia> what do you mean?
14:21 < eudoxia> (jrayhawk)
14:21 <@kanzure> eudoxia: in the us, Libertarianism and libertarianism are two different things.
14:21 < kirka> jrayhawk Didn't Pareto prove that in abscence of coercion free market comes to Pareto optimality?
14:23 < eudoxia> whut
14:24 < kirka> Any coercion can only make cumulative happiness lower.
14:24 < eudoxia> i was actually asking kanz
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14:24 < eudoxia> something about the difference between "votes libertarian" libertarian or "votes republican" libertarian?
14:24 <@kanzure> eudoxia: don't bring me into this
14:24 < kirka> Hehe
14:25 < eudoxia> lol
14:25 <@kanzure> eudoxia: i'm sorry that US politics is so messy, but i'm sure some other website wll be able to help you with Libertarianism/libertarianism
14:25 <@kanzure> *will
14:25 < archbox> what are the best life extension drugs after basic vitamins?
14:26 < eudoxia> oh no i just realized i'm reading the definition on conservapedia
14:26 < Mariu> :o
14:28 < kirka> "If a human being doesn't hurt other human beings, then it shoudn't matter if his brain is 'broken' due to some criterion or not."
14:30 < kirka> Ok, I think this question is settled.
14:30 < eudoxia> watching SVU, can't debate
14:33 < kirka> SVU?
14:34 < eudoxia> tv series, closest thing available to the late law & order
14:36 < eudoxia> did you register on transhumani already?
14:37 <@kanzure> pfft don't be pimping transhumani in here, splitter
14:38 < kirka> Well, "Dopamine-related neuroanatomical sub-strates are involved in altered reward processing in MDD". Surely there is some neural corellate to any emotional state. Are there other implications?
14:38 < kirka> eudoxia Not yet, I'll do it when I'll contribute to some article.
14:38 < eudoxia> ok
14:40 < kirka> Why should be altered reward process omething bad, or somethink requireing repair?
14:41 < kirka> *something
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14:46 <@kanzure> ParahSa1lin: yo
14:46 <@kanzure> that's a wacky ip address
14:46 < ParahSa1lin> kanzure you there?
14:46 <@kanzure> 38.67.0.2?
14:47 < ParahSa1lin> tried your phone
14:47 < ParahSa1lin> you up for dinner?
14:47 <@kanzure> oh oops, i was debugging a few things and turned off mobile data
14:48 <@kanzure> try one more time
14:53 <@kanzure> ParahSa1lin: actually, give me 20min to get to you
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14:56  * kirka sleeps
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15:48 < AdrianG> finally kirka left.
15:48 < AdrianG> He was hurting my hippocampus.
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15:58 < Urchin[Emacs]> looked like some crazy conversation
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17:01 <@kanzure> bloop
17:12 <@kanzure> basic verilog stuff http://www.gibiansky.com/2012/12/your-very-first-microprocessor.html
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17:35 <@kanzure> https://event.on24.com/eventRegistration/EventLobbyServlet?target=registration.jsp&eventid=514004&sessionid=1&key=56BEFC4FBE3382B7EC1BFE402D403C4A&sourcepage=register&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=cb4962d7-4bd9-4a31-b291-30650e68f12c
17:35 <@kanzure> this was a webinar on high-pressure ion chromatography sponsored by thermo fisher from a few months ago
17:36 <@kanzure> any ideas where it was advertised? utm_source=twitter but from where?
18:01 < juri_> "As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life -- so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls." -- Matt Cartmill
18:02 <@kanzure> i didn't choose to be a bishop
18:03 <@kanzure> perhaps i should upgrade my name from bishop to archbishop so i can be an even more powerful bishop
18:09 < juri_> wow. i have a lot of backlog to read.
18:11 < juri_> and kanzure: if i wasn't willing to reason, i wouldn't be here. Like most, i have a long history, which takes effort to overcome, and is a treasure trove, for resources.
18:12 < juri_> i used to understand enough chemistry to get the local police harassing me, rightfully. I was doing people favors, and doing them non-favors at the same time. I don't wish to repeat that part of my past.
18:15 < juri_> therefore, i'll stay out of the chemical side of H+. I'll just provide better technical tools, and put on some blinders about what people are then able to do with those toys. ;)
18:15 -!- yash is now known as yashgaroth
18:55 <@fenn> archbox: "what are the best life extension drugs after basic vitamins?" not eating sugar in the first place, blood sugar control such as metformin and various flavonoids, glycation endproduct breakers (which are still under development), DMAE (deanol), intermittent fasting
18:56 <@fenn> possibly rasagiline (dopamine enhancer)
18:56 <@fenn> and various hormone replacement therapies
18:57 < jrayhawk> Re: Pareto optimality: only really works for rivalrous excludable goods
18:57 <@fenn> there are several theories of aging which may all be correct: senescence due to telomere depletion, hormonal miscommunication, damage due to free radicals, damage due to glycation
18:58 < jrayhawk> soooorta works on rivalrous nonexcludable and nonrivalrous excludable goods sometimes, basically never works on nonrivalrous nonexcludable goods.
18:58 <@fenn> and maybe something about methylation
18:59 <@fenn> sorta hard to draw the line of what's a vitamin anymore
18:59 <@fenn> is PQQ a vitamin?
19:01 <@fenn> oo there's even a "controversy" over whether it's a vitamin or not
19:02 <@fenn> the great thing about curing aging is there are so many things to be fixed :\
19:04 <@fenn> possibly low dose radiation can extend lifespan
19:04 <@fenn> there was that C60+olive oil study which i haven't followed up on
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19:18 < brownies> hehehe
19:18 < brownies> http://squid314.livejournal.com/346391.html
19:18 <@kanzure> what is it?
19:19 < brownies> my link?
19:20 < brownies> it's some random guy who did a nice summary/analysis of many available studies regarding babies and IQ
19:20 <@fenn> "how to have a baby the transhumanist way"
19:20 < brownies> or, in layman's terms, "how to have the least stupid baby you can"
19:20 <@fenn> or something like that
19:20 < brownies> so far it seems like i should move to Portland and date women in their 20s
19:20 <@fenn> that sounds like a good plan either way
19:21 < brownies> yeah, i'm strangely ok with it.
19:22 <@fenn> why does this page not wrap text correctly
19:24 < brownies> it's LiveJournal. frankly i'm amazed it even exists.
19:26 <@fenn> LiveJournal, the last bastion of long form blog posts
19:27 < brownies> i thought that was... hm... no, i guess you're right.
19:27 <@fenn> wrapping works fine in elinks :\
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20:06 <@fenn> he makes an interesting point about parasite load
20:08 < JayDugger> Has he any suggestions about lowering parasite load, fenn?
20:10 <@kanzure> diy reflow oven http://viennot.biz/reflow_oven.pdf
20:11 <@fenn> JayDugger: yea, move to northern latitudes and don't enroll your kids in public school
20:12 < JayDugger> I'm all for the former, and don't worry about the latter. Unfortunately, my wife has a veto.
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20:23 <@kanzure> what
20:23 <@kanzure> http://velvetpulse.com/2012/11/27/scribe-the-deterministic-transparent-record-replay-engine/
20:23 <@kanzure> "Scribe can be used to record application exeuction, then replay a slight modified application while tolerating certain divergence from the expected execution indicated in the logs."
20:23 <@kanzure> "Scribe records application execution into a log file, and can later replay the same application from the log file. It has APIs to inspect the log files, to modify the logged execution, to control the recording and replaying and fiddle with its state."
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20:37 <@kanzure> i'm pretty sure mreplay on that page is the blackest black magic i've ever seen
20:38 <@fenn> it's just storing all the syscalls right?
20:39 <@fenn> like what you see with strace
20:39 <@kanzure> yes but then it replays against your new input and the original executable
20:40 <@fenn> seems like that would be impossible to do for all input and code
20:40 <@fenn> i.e. what if i modify the input to ask for the date, but the original run never bothered to check the date, where does it get that data?
20:40 <@kanzure> check out the video near the middle, his wget example is alright
20:40 <@fenn> wah. i hate videos
20:40 <@fenn> also i don't have any working sound atm
20:41 <@kanzure> also, regarding the date, it periodically logs the timestamp every second or so (apparently)
20:41 <@fenn> what about ... everything else?
20:41 <@kanzure> so when you encounter a new gettimeofday() in the execution
20:41 <@kanzure> mreplay must figure out a consistent time to give
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20:53 <@kanzure> “Mellophone, you say? Why, that’s the instrument of a budding virologist! Give this man a pipette!”
20:54 <@kanzure> http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2012_12_14/caredit.a1200137
20:54 <@kanzure> "So I called each individual department and asked: When reading my application, would the committee rather see that I’m well-rounded or that I’m 100% dedicated to molecular biology?"
20:54 <@kanzure> "“Um … 100% focused on molecular biology, please. The sheer fact that we’re having this conversation means that you possess communication skills, upon which we frown.”"
21:00 < yashgaroth> "it says here that you require sleep? that's gonna be a deal breaker"
21:10 <@fenn> "Mathematician Paul Erdős famously spent 19 hours a day doing math, and he may be the most prolific mathematician who ever lived." a methamphetamine success story for kirka
21:11 <@fenn> though i get the impression most kids on ADHD medicine just play more pokemon
21:12 <@kanzure> i'm allowed to do things other than typing down code dude :(
21:13 < brownies> sometimes you can delete code too.
21:13 < brownies> but that is IT.
21:14 <@fenn> like michaelangelo, deleting everything that isn't the desired program
21:15 <@fenn> the code is in /dev/random just begging to get out
21:16 <@fenn> i'm sort of concerned by the "reram has a write endurance of more than 1 million cycles" which sounds pretty low for use as main memory
21:17 <@fenn> i'm sure you could do hardware wear leveling
21:24 < delinquentme> kanzure, can I relocate controller code in something akin to a helper?
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21:36 <@kanzure> delinquentme: please don't
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22:17 < Thorbinator> confession time: The inevitable gun control shitfest bothers me more than the actual act of mass murder
22:22 -!- ArmilusDajjal [~safitan@75-105-12-23.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:23 < yashgaroth> how so
22:26 < brownies> "Scientists with outside interests are often regarded with suspicion in the lab; we can be seen as undedicated, unfocused, easily distracted, and so divorced from the scientific frame of mind that we’ll probably end up working in—oh, the shame—industry."
22:26 < brownies> this article is hialrious
22:26 <@kanzure> because it's so true :/
22:27 < delinquentme> shame industry?
22:27 <@kanzure> no it said "working in, oh the shame, industry"
22:28 < brownies> "Still another played 8 hours of video games a day—not a Batman job exactly, although it’s possible he sometimes played games involving Batman."
22:29 <@kanzure> haha
22:31 < delinquentme> why are kids acceptable hobbies?
22:32 < delinquentme> also has anyone else LOVED seeing the research that sex and booze makes for a higher level of happiness than marriage and children?
22:32 < erasmus> interesting channel, how do most here feel about disorders like Attention decifit?
22:32 <@kanzure> what do you mean feel
22:32 < erasmus> what opinions do you have about it
22:33 <@kanzure> my opinion is fuck you let me have my stimulants
22:33 < erasmus> do you think it's a made up disorder?
22:33 <@kanzure> who cares?
22:33 <@kanzure> just let me have my stimulants.
22:33 < erasmus> I suppose I do.
22:33 <@kanzure> whether or not it's fake doesn't matter if it produces results.
22:33 < erasmus> kanzure which ones are you taking?
22:33 <@kanzure> all of them
22:33 < erasmus> which ones do you prefer
22:33 <@kanzure> erm, i mean, dextroamphetamines.
22:33 < erasmus> dex is nice
22:34 < erasmus> how much dex can you take in a day?
22:34 <@kanzure> i have never overdosed
22:34 < brownies> uh
22:34 < brownies> i don't think it's supposed to be a competition
22:34 < erasmus> how many mg a day?
22:34 < brownies> anyway, i know some folks that are *really* ADD
22:34 < erasmus> brownies I take 2.5mg cause I'm hyper sensitive, you are right it's not a contest.
22:34 <@kanzure> brownies: the reason i don't seem add is because i'm well medicated.
22:35 < brownies> kanzure: yeah, i figured.
22:35 < brownies> erasmus: what's the usual dose?
22:35 < erasmus> I would say 10mg 3x a day for dex
22:35 <@kanzure> 5mg, 10mg, 20mg, not much higher than 50mg
22:35 < erasmus> but most use Concerta which is long lasting ritalin
22:35 <@kanzure> but i've heard one person taking 100 mg/day
22:35 < erasmus> Vyvanse is like long lasting Adderall
22:35 < brownies> all of these dosages sound horrifying.
22:35 <@kanzure> vyvanse isn't the same thing
22:35 <@kanzure> adderall xr is the long lasting version of adderall
22:36 < erasmus> it's very close
22:36 < brownies> Adderall XR is long-lasting Adderall
22:36 <@kanzure> vyvanse is their rebranding effort and their reformulation
22:36 < erasmus> dex and adder all are more similar to each other then ritalin is
22:36 <@kanzure> to get around patent expirations
22:36 < brownies> what did they do to reformulate it?
22:36 <@kanzure> add some bullshit
22:36 < erasmus> fda also approved a liquid adder all recently
22:36 <@kanzure> all i know is that vyvanse doesn't work for me.
22:36 < brownies> i see. i don't really follow it all. i'm just curious.
22:36 < erasmus> brownies say that again?
22:36 < brownies> kanzure: now that is interesting. so it has a different mechanism of action? it's not an amphetamine?
22:37 < erasmus> it's different salts or something like that
22:37 <@kanzure> first, adderall has a proprietary delivery mechanism that they haven't released
22:37 < erasmus> it's well known dex and add are more powerful then ritalin
22:37 <@kanzure> second, yes there are different salts but it's also an extra -cooh group or something stupid
22:37 < erasmus> they are more intense I guess is all
22:37 <@kanzure> i haven't checked the patent.
22:38 < erasmus> I don't like how I feel on psychostims, so I take a small amount in conjunction with modafinil.
22:38 < erasmus> but if I don't take some stims with the moda then I don't get the same benefits
22:39 < erasmus> for me it's all about my inner voice
22:39 <@kanzure> uh oh, here comes the crazy
22:39 < erasmus> I have a hard time reading and organizing with a stim
22:39 < erasmus> when I take one even at a low dose, it's like no effort I just do it
22:39 < JayDugger> Do you notice any change in the pitch of your speaking voice?
22:39 < erasmus> kanzure it's not voices talking to me. It's when you read or talk to yourself in your mind when you are planning
22:39 <@kanzure> yes.
22:39 < erasmus> like executive functions
22:40 < JayDugger> Does it lower?
22:40 <@kanzure> erasmus: you should try to avoid that dude
22:40 < erasmus> I cannot really get in tune with that voice when I'm not on dex.
22:40 <@kanzure> JayDugger: it becomes more controllable
22:40 < erasmus> try to avoid what?
22:40 <@kanzure> erasmus: that voice sounds like a stupid idea
22:40 <@kanzure> do you also subvocalize when you read??
22:40 <@kanzure> shit.
22:41 < erasmus> Abe Lincoln used to drive his coworkers in his office crazy everyday cause he would read the newspaper out loud to himself in the morning
22:41 < erasmus> I could do the same but that's not needed when on a stim.
22:41 <@kanzure> i don't see how that comment about licoln is relevant
22:41 <@kanzure> i still think reading with a voice is slow and ridiculous
22:41 < erasmus> in addition to add-pi I have an auditory processing problem
22:41 <@kanzure> yeah, well, you're not missing much
22:42 < erasmus> it's funny how clearly I can explain my situation and yet you find issue with what I'm saying.
22:42 <@kanzure> i just don't think it's a good idea
22:42 <@kanzure> have you considered not doing these things
22:42 < erasmus> what isn't a good idea?
22:42 < erasmus> not reading?
22:42 <@kanzure> inner voice, subvocalizing, etc.
22:42 < erasmus> you need to do that in order to retain the information
22:42 < erasmus> everyone does that.
22:43 <@kanzure> i'm here to tell you etc..
22:43 < erasmus> even as you are reading what I'm now just typing you are hearing the words in your mind.
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22:43 <@kanzure> no, i assure you i am not
22:43 < erasmus> are you saying you do not?
22:44 <@kanzure> that sounds boring and lame dude
22:44 < erasmus> then with you I need to have compassion or just indifference.
22:44 < yashgaroth> I started doing it once you typed that, I hope I get back to normal soon
22:44 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: i feel for you'
22:44 < erasmus> it's all about processing.
22:44 <@kanzure> what
22:44 <@kanzure> why is it suddenly all about that
22:44 < erasmus> how we process information.
22:44 <@kanzure> are you an neuroscientist or are you full of shit?
22:45 <@kanzure> sorry, a neuroscientist
22:45 < erasmus> I'd say indifference at this point.
22:46 <@kanzure> i see no reason that processing has anything to do with subvocalizing or an inner voice
22:46 <@kanzure> now, it's true that broca's area is activated during some forms of reading
22:46 < brownies> yashgaroth: haha, yea, goddammit
22:46 < brownies> sometimes i get stuck subvocalizing
22:46 < yashgaroth> it's like manual breathing (sorry in advance everyone)
22:47 < brownies> and your tongue's position in your mouth
22:47  * brownies ducks
22:47 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: i have trained myself to become impervious to that one
22:47 <@kanzure> "Do you know how I do it? I am breathing all the time." bruce brenner style.
22:47 < yashgaroth> heh
22:47 <@kanzure> *bruce banner
22:47 < brownies> where is that quote from anyway?
22:47 < brownies> i see that reference everywhere
22:48 < yashgaroth> the avengers, and possibly also the comics/movies I haven't read/seen
22:48 < brownies> ahh. haven't seen it yet.
22:48 < yashgaroth> I'm afraid you nerd license has been suspended
22:48 <@kanzure> brownies: http://youtube.com/watch?v=NvY_sMf9b_Q
22:49 < brownies> i haven't been to the movies in years
22:49 < brownies> doesn't leave enough time for coding
22:49 < yashgaroth> neither have I...well okay I saw prometheus and that sucked
22:50 <@kanzure> brownies: dude you're missing out
22:50 <@kanzure> go to a theater asap
22:50 <@kanzure> hang out in the back row with your laptop
22:50 < brownies> and watch what?
22:50 <@kanzure> code while watching movies
22:50 < brownies> haha, not a bad idea.
22:50 <@kanzure> doesn't matter, just fucking code while watching movies.
22:50 <@kanzure> also best if you can find an outlet.
22:50 <@kanzure> if you want to be the biggest ass of all time, sit in the front row while working on your super special rails app
22:50 < erasmus> so kanzure can you describe exactly what you get when you take a stimulant?
22:51 <@kanzure> erasmus: angry, i get fucking angry
22:51 <@kanzure> also, i get a working memory bigger than 2 minutes.
22:51 < erasmus> have you ever been diagnosed with add?
22:51 <@kanzure> yes, i'm diagnosed with all sorts of wonderful things like adhd, aspergers, hfa, etc.
22:52 < brownies> aren't you *always* on stimulants?
22:52 < erasmus> aspergers doesn't exist anymore.
22:52 < brownies> how is aspergers different from HFA?
22:52 <@kanzure> brownies: it's not
22:52 <@kanzure> brownies: and yes i am.
22:52 < erasmus> assburgers was removed from the DSM-V
22:52 <@kanzure> yes i'm aware of that
22:52 <@kanzure> that doesn't mean that the word doesn't exist -_-
22:52 < brownies> do you use stims with time-release coatings, or just re-dose regularly?
22:52 <@kanzure> both
22:52 < brownies> since, apaprently, we're interrogating you about your brain now.
22:53 < erasmus> kanzure do you do anything else to improve your working memory besides take stims?
22:53 < brownies> why are you so angry?
22:53 <@kanzure> brownies: because things are awful and i have to fix them, and you guys aren't helping most of the time.
22:53 <@kanzure> if you were better people, you would actually submit pull requests once in a while
22:53 <@kanzure> instead of watching me like a caged animal
22:54 < brownies> pull requests to what?
22:54 < erasmus> kanzure how old are you?
22:54  * brownies pokes kanzure with a stick
22:54 <@kanzure> brownies: to the things that we work on in here -_-
22:54 < brownies> what do you work on in here?
22:54 < brownies> this is the first i'm hearing of this.
22:54 <@kanzure> for all of kirka's fucked up philosophy, he at least submits a few pull requests once in a while
22:54 < erasmus> are you comorbid anything else?
22:54 <@kanzure> brownies: http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer is the current topic concerning kirka
22:55 < erasmus> I'm taking Trzodone for the first time tonight, doesn't anyone have any advice?
22:55 <@kanzure> erasmus: i'm 22, but i have the heart of a 2 year old.
22:55 < brownies> what the hell is Trzodone?
22:55 < erasmus> heart or penis?
22:55 < yashgaroth> so did kirka turn out to be a fascist because there's no way I'm reading that backlog
22:55 < brownies> other than a gratuitous typo?
22:55 < erasmus> it's an anti-dep for sleep
22:55 < brownies> kanzure: oh your'e only 22? i had no idea.
22:55 < erasmus> or I got it for sleep
22:55 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: i can't even diagnose him
22:55 <@kanzure> brownies: aren't you like 300 or something?
22:55 < erasmus> so now I'm on 3 anti-depressants.
22:55 < brownies> yes. 300.
22:55 <@kanzure> k
22:56 < erasmus> and 4 if you count fish oil;
22:56 < brownies> try melatonin?
22:56 < brownies> haha, no, fish oil doesn't count.
22:56 <@kanzure> how about not sleeping?
22:56 <@kanzure> that skips the problem completely.
22:56 < erasmus> yes but I learned recently something new about melatonin
22:56 < erasmus> I always used to take it 30 min before sleep
22:56 < erasmus> but that's not right
22:56 < erasmus> you should take it around 6 or 7pm or with dinner
22:56 < erasmus> and then you will be able to sleep later
22:56 <@kanzure> 6pm? so when you wake up?
22:57 < erasmus> I get up around 7
22:57 < brownies> i don't take it at all; just suggesting.
22:57 < erasmus> but if it doesn't work for me tonight I'll just take 400mg Moda
22:57 <@kanzure> brownies: how do you not know my age by now?
22:57 <@kanzure> curious..
22:57 <@kanzure> i guess it changes each year so it might be confusing
22:57 < brownies> kanzure: i thought you were a couple years older, for some reason.
22:57 <@kanzure> oh neat, okay
22:57 < brownies> kanzure: i just hate it when people younger than me have their own wikipedia articles and i don't
22:58 <@kanzure> i don't think i have a wikipedia article
22:58 < yashgaroth> didn't know you were bald
22:58 <@kanzure> man that would be a neat christmas gift
22:58 < brownies> ah, no, you don't. alright then.
22:58 < brownies> haha, yeah, some bald guy with your name does though.
22:58 <@kanzure> well he has cancer
22:58 <@kanzure> so hopefully he'll be dead soon
22:58 <@kanzure> and then that asshole writing for verge with my name, not sure what to do with him
23:01 < brownies> well you just have to beat him to wikipedia
23:01 < brownies> or possibly change your name to something more exciting
23:03 <@kanzure> bryan archbishop
23:03 < brownies> yes, a promotion.
23:05 <@kanzure> looks like nobody has claimed that name
23:06 < brownies> that's pretty rare in today's internet age
23:06 < brownies> better jump on it
23:06 <@kanzure> and get the .com too huh?
23:06 < brownies> heh
23:06 <@kanzure> i'm just waiting for people to take names like "bytesmith" and "bitbanger" or "pixelpusher"
23:08 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
23:08 < brownies> you can start the trend
23:09 < brownies> Bryan Bytesmith... founder of a long line of byte smithers.
23:09 <@kanzure> Abraham Lincoln Hamlsmith
23:10 < brownies> it would make socieconomics stratification so much simpler
23:10 < brownies> you meet a Javasmith, you know to look down on him right away
23:12 <@kanzure> mips would be a funny one
23:14 <@fenn> ah now i can't stop breathing!
23:14 <@fenn> yashgaroth: damn you and your tricksy ways
23:14 <@kanzure> isn't that.. good?
23:14 <@kanzure> stopping would be deadly
23:14 < yashgaroth> hey man I apologized
23:15 < yashgaroth> quick, think about blinking instead
23:15 <@kanzure> your jedi mind tricks do not work on me.. only money.
23:16 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: i bet that worked, but now he can't stop blinking
23:18 <@fenn> why the hell am i reading about semiconductor technology node cost trends
23:18 < brownies> learn anything good?
23:18 <@fenn> not really
23:18 <@fenn> multilayer seems to be the only way out
23:24 <@fenn> apparently a key patent related to monolithic 3d chip fab expired late 2012
23:25 <@fenn> http://www.monolithic3d.com/2/post/2011/07/how-much-does-ion-cut-cost.html
23:26 <@fenn> nobody's developed contact nanoimprinting either
23:35 -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
--- Log closed Sun Dec 16 00:00:58 2012