--- Log opened Mon Dec 17 00:00:59 2012
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01:03 <@fenn> huh. learn something every day. "supermarket meat, has been “wet aged” to increase tenderness and flavour. This means it has been refrigerated in vacuum packs for around three months before sale."
01:03 <@kanzure> beep.
01:03 <@kanzure> oh look a person.
01:04 <@fenn> r u a bot
01:04 <@fenn> :<
01:04 <@kanzure> yes
01:04 <@kanzure> i was just thinking to myself, "damn, this channel has been quiet, i need to beep" and then something happened.
01:05 <@kanzure> tautology
01:05 <@fenn> the tautology appeared because it was necessary
01:06 <@kanzure> because it was necessary to make me not look like an idiot?
01:11 <@kanzure> this is a bizarre question.. "empirical evidence for the value of version control?" http://www.neverworkintheory.org/?p=451
01:12 <@kanzure> renaming a file to whatever2.dat, while stupid, is still a form of version control, and i'm pretty sure people do it anyway. any copy that exists somewhere else is "version control".. but it might just be a very weak form of control.
01:14 <@fenn> anything is anything, and everything! 1=1==1!!111
01:14 <@kanzure> huh?
01:14 <@kanzure> i think asking for data on evidence of the effectiveness of certain practices is legitimate
01:15 <@fenn> no, "any copy that exists somewhere" is not version control.
01:15 <@kanzure> it's certainly not usable version control..
01:15 <@fenn> i agree, scientific studies of programming methods is important
01:16 <@fenn> i haven't seen anything since th 1970's though unfortunately
01:22 <@kanzure> mitmproxy needs annotations or some way to note wtf the request was caused by or for.
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01:27 <@fenn> kanzure: possibly relevant to you, " I have had Asperger’s-like personality traits since childhood. Since taking thyroxine, I no longer score in the Asperger’s range. I have comorbid Attention Deficit Disorder, which has much improved since taking thyroxine, though it is not cured. This is because hypothyroidism causes low levels of dopamine and serotonin."
01:27 <@kanzure> why would i possibly want these symptoms to go away?
01:28 <@fenn> because hypothyroidism will eventually kill you
01:30 <@fenn> also iirc your mom has thyroid issues
01:30 <@kanzure> yes she does
01:30 <@kanzure> i believe it's called "being half lizard"
01:31 <@fenn> heh
01:36 <@fenn> apparently low thyroid makes you lose calcium and supplementing with calcium helps with focus and energy
01:37 <@fenn> which can be done by drinking milk
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07:50 < archels> http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/dec/13/how-people-die-global-mortality-visualised
07:51 < archels> cancer doesn't seem to be growing very much at all
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12:06 < jrayhawk> calcium supplementation is a little unwise without A/D and especially K2 supplementation
12:10 < jrayhawk> when you don't provide calcium management molecules, calcium winds up all over the place
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12:18 < jrayhawk> i.e. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18198394?dopt=AbstractPlus
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12:34 < jrayhawk> http://www.bmj.com/content/333/7572/775 well, all over the place *except* your bones
12:35 < jrayhawk> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9092314 also
12:36 < jrayhawk> http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/x-factor-is-vitamin-k2 is a fun read
12:41 < jrayhawk> hmm. 50-60 years before mainstream science took it seriously. on par with penicillin.
12:41 < jrayhawk> i wonder if that number is magic
12:42 < jrayhawk> an entire generation's worth of authoritarian baggage dying off or something
12:43 < jrayhawk> authoritarian intellectual baggage
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17:13 < technicus> Hello.
17:14 <@kanzure> yes?
17:14 <@kanzure> it's been a while.
17:16 <@kanzure> fenn: well apparently they made it open access
17:16 <@kanzure> fenn: http://themerckindex.chemfinder.com/themerckindex/Forms/Home/ContentArea/Home.aspx
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17:24 < technicus> Does anyone here have suggestions on how to become a self taught mathmatician?
17:30 < emancipated> technicus:  open course ware
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17:33 < technicus> emancipated: Thanks :)
17:37 < brownies> technicus: read books
17:39 < technicus> brownies: Yes :)
17:39 < technicus> brownies: Which books?
17:39 < brownies> technicus: it really depends how much you know at the moment
17:39 < brownies> it also depends how theoretical you want to get
17:40 < technicus> brownies: Pre-algebra.
17:40 < brownies> oh wow. you're in high school or something?
17:41 < brownies> honestly, while i disagree with almost everything about math education in US schools, i will say the ordering is not totally useless. algebra => geometry => trigonometry => calculus, or somesuch.
17:42 < brownies> once you make it through calculus, then you can start wandering in a variety of directions
17:42 < brownies> but having some exposure to the basics and understanding the ideas of calculus is pretty important.
17:47 <@kanzure> with only knowledge of pre-algebra topics, i'm curious why you're interested in math. you're not even to the fun stuff. everything pre-algerba tends to be boring and things like "can you add" and "can you subtract".
17:47 < technicus> brownies: Yes that is the idea.  I am realizing that it will be necessary to understand how to evaluate myself while learning these subjects.
17:47 < brownies> incidentally, we're building some software to teach people math.
17:47 <@kanzure> when brownies says we he means himself
17:48 < brownies> check back with me in like 3 months and i'll throw you an invite
17:48 < technicus> brownies: THAT IS EXCITING!
17:48 < brownies> kanzure: we do not approve of your clarification of our usage of the royal we
17:49 < brownies> technicus: anyway, evaluating yourself is straightforward. you do exercises.
17:49 < brownies> the tricky part is finding someone to evaluate your solutions, but if your'e clever, you can do that yourself.
17:49 <@kanzure> also, read all of wikipedia, and then do it again
17:50 <@kanzure> it is also helpful if you happen to know something else, like programming, because then you can just go learn R and approach math from a programming perspective to get a good grip.
17:50 < technicus> brownies: I am interested in your math teaching softwares project, as I am currently trying to learn Octave.
17:50 < brownies> kanzure: the tricky part is reading it in the right oder.
17:50 <@kanzure> but if you don't do any programming, sympy/mathematica/matlab will look like pure evil
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17:50 <@kanzure> ah octave
17:50 < brownies> technicus: oh, well, stop that, and go learn MATLAB instead.
17:51 <@kanzure> what
17:51 < brownies> Octave is for poor unwashed hippies.
17:51 <@kanzure> pfft
17:51 < brownies> ...and open-source nuts.
17:51 <@kanzure> you got me there
17:51 < brownies> the industry runs on Matlab
17:52 < technicus> brownies: And bumbs on the side of the street who cant afford to go to colledge, because everything is too danmed expensive.
17:52 <@kanzure> just go download a copy of matlab
17:52 <@fenn> technicus: get a copy of mathematica and play around with it
17:53 < technicus> I have to settle with Octave and being my own math professor because I can't afford tuition, books, or expensive software.
17:53 <@fenn> then read about what you don't understand on mathworld
17:53 <@kanzure> if you're paying for books, you're doing something wrong..
17:53 <@fenn> (actually, i've never found a good online math site, any ideas?)
17:53 < emancipate> I like that statement kanzure  :)
17:53 <@kanzure> how is mathworld not good?
17:54 < emancipate> project gutenburg has free math/physics books
17:54 <@fenn> it's very concise. sometimes that's good, but when you're totally new to the area it doesn't help
17:54 < brownies> wikipedia and mathworld are solid math sites.
17:54 < brownies> *math* is concise. =P
17:54 <@fenn> wikpedia is awful at explaining anything mathematical
17:54 <@kanzure> mathoverflow is pretty awesome too, but it's anti-newbie
17:54 < brownies> i owe at least half my degree to wikipedia
17:54 < brownies> maybe you're just awful at understanding anything mathematical -_-
17:55 <@fenn> well anyway.. mathworld >> wikipedia
17:55 <@fenn> maybe you're right
17:55 < brownies> technicus: as for books, if you ask around, there are lots of good free recommendations.
17:55 <@fenn> i often find math easier to understand when presented as an algorithm instead of an equation
17:55 < brownies> in my experience it's best to read the textbook, *then* go to wikipedia to get another explanation of it while you do the exercises
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17:57 <@fenn> yeah
17:57 <@fenn> math books are where it's at, unfortunately
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17:58 < erasmus> Is Obama gonna take all the guns away from the rednecks and republicans now?
17:59 <@fenn> no
17:59 <@kanzure> erasmus: please, leave that crap out of the channel
17:59 < erasmus> oh snap, wrong channel
17:59 <@fenn> do we need really to add a "no politics" clause? it should go without saying
17:59 < technicus> Hey this channel is awesome . . . thanks :)
18:00 < emancipate> you could make a bot that auto kicks on key words ;)
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18:00 <@kanzure> i am a bot
18:00 < emancipate> lol
18:00 < emancipate> thanks for the interesting read http://anselmlevskaya.com/
18:01 < emancipate> is there other sources that suppliments his whitepapers?
18:01 <@kanzure> yes, they are called supplements on the publishers' sites
18:02 <@fenn> supplements are bad mmkay
18:02 <@kanzure> they are bad but that doesn't mean they don't exist
18:03 < emancipate> anyone here playing with optogenetics already? I would love to follow your progress
18:03 <@kanzure> anselm has dropped optogenetics for various reasons
18:03 < emancipate> ohh
18:04 <@kanzure> fenn: i recal his complaint was something like "it's really not as great as it's been made out to be", or something
18:04 <@kanzure> i imagine he might have given you a more specific complaint at some point?
18:04 <@fenn> he was frustrated with the state of gene synthesis and its lack of availability to academics, and this was hindering his research with zebrafish
18:05 <@fenn> it's too expensive so they make researchers do it by hand, which just wastes their time
18:06 <@fenn> i dont recall any complaints about optogenetics, aside from the voltage sensitive dyes being very difficult to work with
18:06 <@fenn> s/dye/reporter protein/
18:07 < technicus> brownies: On what platforms do you plan to deploy the software that you are designing?
18:07 < emancipate> too bad, it looked promising
18:08 < curt1s> http://lethalsoftware.tumblr.com/
18:08 < curt1s> :D
18:08 <@fenn> so pausing work on neuroscience to work on broader access to gene synthesis seems like a reasonable compromise
18:08 <@kanzure> i thought he was working on sequencing
18:08 <@fenn> no, it's sequence directed synthesis, or something like that
18:08 <@fenn> if there's a typo the machine re-synthesizes that strand
18:09 <@kanzure> silly biologists and their naming schenes
18:09 <@fenn> since they have physical position control over the dna bead you can do stuff like that even in large parallel synthesis reactions
18:09 <@kanzure> the majority of sequencing techniques requires synthesis anyway, which further confuses things
18:10 <@fenn> where is the info about what they're doing coming from? i don't see anything on cambriangenomics.com
18:10 <@kanzure> they had a private presentation at the FBI/DTRA thing that i wasn't allowed to type notes for
18:10 <@fenn> pbthbt
18:10 <@kanzure> naturally, that means i don't remember a thing of consequence
18:11 <@kanzure> i remember other useless details though, like a picture of a machine with lots of tubes. gee thanks austen.
18:12 <@kanzure> oh they updated their site. it used to be a redirect to angel.co somewhere.
18:12 <@kanzure> https://angel.co/cambrian-genomics
18:12 <@fenn> the laser shoots reaction site beads off a slide into an array of sequencers
18:12 <@fenn> to verify the sequence got synthesized correctly
18:12 <@kanzure> "1 day ago: National Science Foundation Awards Cambrian Genomics SBIR Phase I: DNA Laser Printing for Low Cost Gene & Genome Synthesis"
18:12 <@kanzure> they did a SBIR?
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18:13 <@fenn> news to me
18:13 <@kanzure> SBIR seems like an odd choice for them? weren't they going around trying to raise VC funding?
18:13 <@kanzure> wasn't that the whole point of involving george church?
18:14 <@fenn> SBIR lets you keep a larger share of equity
18:15 <@fenn> also they need time more than money
18:15  * fenn shrugs
18:18 <@kanzure> damn, i need to plant another mole at langton
18:21  * fenn mumbles something about jeremy guillory
18:21 <@fenn> it seems they decided the pods are unfit for permanent residence
18:21 <@kanzure> i can never remember who jeremy is
18:21 <@kanzure> i think he worked for matt campbell at one point?
18:21 <@kanzure> and that's how i know him?
18:22 <@fenn> yeah, the desk right behind us, but he was never there
18:22 <@fenn> i guess he worked on his laptop in a cafe because he didnt like being inside
18:22 <@kanzure> well he was also a "manager" at a startup thing that i was involved in (it wasn't a company, just some community-event-thing)
18:23 <@fenn> hardware startups though, i think it's a pretty small world still
18:23 <@fenn> hell nick pinkston's last hardware startup meetup was at alangton
18:25 < technicus> "Red Dwarf X"
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18:30 <@fenn> wow, straight out of dystopian sci fi, reading "the last psychiatrist's blog" "I get that they have a lot of antipsychotics in Washington DC, but do you know what they don't have a lot of in Washington DC?  Riots.   I guess it all worked out, I have no idea how but you can't argue with results, ask the Athenians and Madridians if their system worked better."
18:31 <@kanzure> does "having a lot of antipsychotics" mean "lots of people taking antipsych-category medication"?
18:31 <@fenn> yes
18:32 <@fenn> "we're not medicating a diagnosis, we're using a diagnosis to justify the medication we have to use anyway because we have nothing else to do but give out medications."
18:32 < emancipate> anyone familiar with fluride and its effects on the brain is like a lobotomy?
18:33 <@fenn> "we're not medicating a diagnosis, we're using a diagnosis to justify the medication we have to use anyway because we have nothing else to do but give out medications."
18:33 <@fenn> er, "the most important reason a medication was used is that the patient showed up, and they showed up because that's where the state told them to go.  "
18:33 <@fenn> it's not like we don't know this but it's surprising to hear a psychiatrist say it
18:37 < brownies> ah, that math-illiterate guy left. ah well.
18:37 <@kanzure> i think http://wifis.org/ would be more interesting if you could auto-whitelist mac addresses based on social groups, or some other mechanism to incentivize mesh networks actually happening
18:38 <@fenn> fixing bug 82 in android would go a long way toward that
18:38 <@fenn> but that's a corporate policy decision that isn't going to change any time soon
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18:38 < emancipate> kanzure:  people could also spoof those :/
18:38 <@kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=82
18:39 <@kanzure> emancipate: so?
18:39 < emancipate> I guess it could stop most...
18:39 < emancipate> just not the most persistent
18:39 <@fenn> emancipate: huh?
18:39 <@kanzure> he probably means mac address spoofing
18:39 < emancipate> mac spoofing
18:40 < emancipate> yeah, unless you meant something else :/
18:40 <@fenn> i like the idea of a mechanism to provide contact info
18:40 <@kanzure> doesn't matter if mac addresses can be spoofed.. worse case scenario is that you have the server send you a new mac address, which you use to connect temporarily
18:40 <@fenn> it's hard enough to just find someone's email address these days
18:41 <@kanzure> fenn: also, something about auto-identifying mesh networks is useful
18:41 <@fenn> who cares about spoofing, the goal is to provide access
18:41 <@fenn> some evil hacker who knows how to spoof mac addresses has already cracked your pititful WEP encryption
18:42 <@kanzure> you mean everyone in here? heh.
18:42 < emancipate> wow what is the goal of this group, some sort of localized public intranet?
18:43 <@fenn> no it's to encourage communication between humans in physical regions on planet earth
18:43 < emancipate> pretty cool
18:43  * fenn shrugs
18:43 <@kanzure> fenn: i think another issue is that even if a mesh network does exist somewhere, you're unlikely to know about it unless you look at each wifi network name and see something peculiar
18:43 <@fenn> there were better proposals, microformats for example, but it never took off for some reason
18:44 <@kanzure> or unless somoen tells you
18:44 < emancipate> if its doable with an android phone, it might be posible to make a homebrew peplink router
18:44 <@kanzure> how is an android phone considered homebrew precisely?
18:44 < emancipate> and use several internet sources and pipe it into one fast connection
18:44 <@fenn> kanzure: why is it important that it's a mesh network?
18:45 < emancipate> just the adhoc part
18:45 <@kanzure> fenn: it's not
18:45 <@fenn> now i'm confused
18:45 < emancipate> lol sorry, just thinking out loud
18:45 <@kanzure> everyone and their mom keeps posting on the internet about their radical new networking idea
18:45 <@kanzure> and all you need is a million people with pringles cans to setup the network
18:46 <@kanzure> except it rarely goes anywhere useful
18:46 <@kanzure> part of this is because willing participants don't know about the rollout
18:46 <@kanzure> and another part is that your members are too distant to setup a usable link on their own
18:46 <@fenn> huh. i'm now http://www.wifis.org/foo
18:48 < emancipate> hmm what the group is trying to do looks like what jesager already does
18:48 <@fenn> i think protocol incompatibility and fragmentation is a bigger obstacle than simple ignorance
18:48 <@kanzure> 802.11?
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18:49 <@fenn> that's just the data link, there's also routing that needs to happen
18:49 < emancipate> www.digininja.org/jasager/ i'm sure it could be tweaked for adhock
18:49 < emancipate> adhoc* even
18:51 <@kanzure> i bet instead of towns appearing near rivers in africa they will appear near hotspots or places that connectivity doesn't entirely suck
18:51 <@kanzure> oops wait, teleology bites me again
18:51 < emancipate> I remember a newspost about some african traffic lights being broken into to get the sim card, for unlimited dialup internet
18:52 <@kanzure> why is that dialup?
18:52 <@fenn> someone join wifis with this link, i want another ID http://www.wifis.org/?invite=FCnEfD8joPwkHjH2NCprjQN4DNARl-QS
18:52 <@kanzure> a sim card would imply 2g or 3g
18:52 < emancipate> dunno
18:52 < emancipate> might be all they had
18:52 <@kanzure> what?
18:52 < emancipate> not sure about the accuracy of the post  anyway
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19:14 <@kanzure> fenn: or you could just put your email address in the ssid
19:15 <@fenn> oh sure, but that would be too easy
19:17 <@fenn> and besides, what about the roving swarms of quadcopters searching for new ways to threaten our privacy for their spammer overlords
19:17  * fenn sighs with nostalgia for the future
19:18 <@fenn> i wonder how skyhook gets their data
19:19 <@fenn> actually it's trivial nowadays with every phone having gps and wifi
19:20 <@fenn> "In 2007, scientists identified specific anticancer mechanisms for vitamin K2, including inhibition of proinflammatory nuclear factor-kappa B (NFkB) that is often over-expressed in cancer cells."
19:21 <@fenn> gosh it seems everything and their grandmother affects NFkB
19:22 <@fenn> i wish statements like this were accompanied by quantitative estimates of the magnitude of th effect
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19:43 <@fenn> it's amazing k2 supplements are so expensive; how hard could it be to synthesize this?
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19:49 <@kanzure> sigh how is there still no .deb for android-sdk?
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20:11 < emancipated> http://www.ekac.org/nat.hist.enig.html
20:12 < brownies> fenn: k2?
20:13 < brownies> oh, the vitamin.
20:15 <@fenn> it's another one of those weird quinone things
20:17 <@fenn> man, deaf smith county texas seems to be the place to go if you have heart disease
20:22 < emancipated> is there current similar work like that petunia thing?
20:23 <@fenn> bad art pseudoscientific wankery?
20:23 < emancipated> yeah :)
20:23 <@fenn> sure, stelarc is still running around
20:23 <@fenn> i guess you meant something with genetic engineering
20:24 < emancipated> yes, with viruses thats a diy hobbyist could play with
20:24 <@kanzure> why does it have to be viruses?
20:25 < yash-phone> he didn't use viruses
20:25 < yash-phone> or rather, the people he paid to do it, didn't
20:25 < emancipated> didnt he? ohh.
20:25 < yash-phone> the wankery was all him though
20:25 <@kanzure> why would you assume a virus was involved?
20:26 <@fenn> i think he meant vector
20:26 < yash-phone> either agrobacterium or a gene gun
20:26 < emancipated> CoYMV (Commelina Yellow Mottle Virus) Promoter
20:27 < emancipated> from what I understand its what introduced his dna, is that wrong?
20:27 <@kanzure> do you know what a promoter is
20:27 <@fenn> sigh.. go read a molecular biology text book please
20:27 < emancipated> no sorry, really really new
20:27 < emancipated> ok will do
20:27 < yash-phone> isn't this the guy who did the glowing rabbit
20:27 <@fenn> snyder & champness is alright
20:28 <@kanzure> stelarci s not worth your time
20:28 < emancipated> thanks I'll look into snyder and champness
20:28 <@fenn> we've got some ebooks online somewhere around here
20:29 <@fenn> oh my i really do need to tidy up
20:37 <@fenn> i haven't read these but hopefully one of them is decent: http://fennetic.net/irc/bio_books/
20:37 < emancipated> thanks
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20:41 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/books has some more
20:41 < emancipated> thanks for that too
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20:42 < abetusk> 404 not found
20:43 <@kanzure> abetusk: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books/
20:43 < abetusk> thanks
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20:50 <@fenn> i'd love a tv series just about molecular biology, all 3d graphics and explanations of how stuff works
20:50 <@fenn> narrated by david attenborough
20:51 <@kanzure> you'll have to do with youtube videos, oh the horror
20:52 <@fenn> animations like http://molecularmovies.com/showcase/ especially the ones by drew barry
20:52 <@fenn> drew berry*
20:55 < emancipated> this is great, nice links and books... would keep me busy for months if not years :)
20:55 <@kanzure> so?
20:55 <@kanzure> i mean, be faster?
20:55 < emancipated> thank you :)
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20:56 <@fenn> it should only take 1 year :P
20:56 <@kanzure> any of you jerks have an android image with iptables working?
20:56 <@fenn> what are you setting out on a crusade to implement mesh networking on android?
20:57 <@kanzure> i'm trying to avoid re-compiling redsocks/proxydroid for android-x86
20:57 <@kanzure> it looks like redsocks-for-android was compiled with some custom-patched libevent, which means i would probably have to mess around with libevent too
20:59 <@kanzure> also, it turns out there's no image of cyangenmod that is meant for an emulator
20:59 <@kanzure> *cyanogenmod
20:59 < emancipated> 404 on molecular biology of a gene
20:59 <@kanzure> yes i'm aware
20:59 <@kanzure> edit the page if you care so much, it's a wiki
20:59 < abetusk> fenn, nmz787, hows the laser cutter coming?
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22:45 < Thorbinator> eeeeeeeeeee new foal necromancer chapter
22:45 < Thorbinator> wrong channel, sorry
23:07 < sylph_mako> Fucking. Fantastic.
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 18 00:00:01 2012