--- Log opened Wed Dec 19 00:00:02 2012
00:00 < DoYouKnow> I mean, a plant, to have evolved the ability to close its leaves like that, taken alone... must have had some pretty picky vegatarians on its hunt
00:00 < DoYouKnow> herbivores
00:00 < DoYouKnow> and/or omnivores
00:01 < DoYouKnow> also, it's toxic
00:01 <@fenn> most things are
00:02 <@fenn> "all is poison, and nothing is without poison. the dose alone makes the poison!"
00:04 <@fenn> it's such bullshit that "native and or religious peoples" are permitted psychedelic drugs, and everyone else has to make do with television
00:05 <@fenn> how is anyone more or less "native" or "religious" than anyone else?
00:08 <@fenn> i'm sure the aspies would have a field day with that
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00:12 <@fenn> aw i was hoping it would say "success"
00:13 <@fenn> ... sonoluminesence. hrmph.
00:17 <@kanzure> fenn one day you will find someone to confer about conspiracy theories, but not today
00:19 <@fenn> i think ms. lovecruft has the right idea http://www.patternsinthevoid.net/blog/2011/10/schizophrenia-is-a-chronological-disorder/
00:20 <@fenn> (roughly: you talk to yourself but get the time order wrong, so you believe somebody else is talking)
00:20 < jrayhawk> schizophrenia also has strong correlation with intestinal permeability and inflammation
00:21 <@fenn> and oxidative stress too (?)
00:22  * fenn mumbles something about mercury toxicity and magnesium deficiency
00:23 <@fenn> anyway, first step is for someone to define the problem
00:23 <@fenn> then we can solve the problem
00:23 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/the-truth-about-toxic-mercury-in-fish is kinda interesting
00:24 <@fenn> i don't think people are getting mercury poisoning from fish
00:25 < jrayhawk> River systems are highly variable, there.
00:25 <@fenn> oh, i forgot about freshwater fish
00:26 <@fenn> (why would you eat that :P)
00:26 < jrayhawk> one hell of a lot lower barrier to entry to fish in a river
00:27 < archbox_> >L.Ac
00:27 < jrayhawk> I concur.
00:27 < jrayhawk> >L., as you so rightly said, Ac.
00:28 <@fenn> um, what?
00:28 <@fenn> lactobacillus acidophilus?
00:28 <@kanzure> i t's his password
00:28 <@kanzure> *or it's his password
00:29 < chido> freshwater fish is the traditional christmas dinner where I come from
00:29 < jrayhawk> And, of course, swordfish is often available at markets.
00:29 < chido> but I guess once a year isn't that poisonous
00:29 < archbox_> fenn: Licensed Acupuncturist
00:29 < archbox_> kanzure: what password?
00:31 <@fenn> so chris kresser is an acupuncturist. i hope that means he knows more about nutrition than your average medical doctor
00:31 < jrayhawk> oh yes, just a bit
00:32 < archbox_> also, you should take diluted water instead of any real treatments
00:33 <@fenn> why don't we have usb mass spectrometers yet
00:33 <@kanzure> because nmz787 is lazy
00:33 <@fenn> do i have to do everything around here?
00:33 <@kanzure> oh wait, he wasn't doing a mass spec
00:33 < chido> how does one dilute water I wonder
00:33 <@fenn> gosh it's not that hard to answer the question "is this contaminated with mercury"
00:33 < archbox_> chido: it's because H2O holds fingerprints
00:33 < archbox_> you have to fingerprint the water in your water so you get more hydrated
00:33 < jrayhawk> chido: well, first you dehydrate it
00:34 < archbox_> jrayhawk has the right idea
00:34 < jrayhawk> chido: in reducing water, you can get concentrated SUPERWATER
00:34 <@fenn> archbox_: i hope you realize homeopathy and acupuncture are from two entirely different continents
00:34 < jrayhawk> chido: then you dilute your superwater in water to get a homeopathic water response
00:34 < chido> sounds fun
00:34 <@fenn> not that all of homeopathy is bad (they invented oral zinc for colds, and various magnesium therapies)
00:34 < archbox_> fenn: you know what we call alternative medicine that works?
00:35 <@kanzure> archbox_: i suspect that fenn is about to roflstomp all over you here
00:35 < chido> archbox_: regular medicine?
00:35 < archbox_> :<
00:35 <@kanzure> archbox_: have you actually read about homeopathy
00:35 < jrayhawk> or acupuncture, for that matter
00:35 <@fenn> is this AdrianG?
00:35 <@kanzure> fuck not this guy
00:35 < jrayhawk> or even the efficacy of Standard of Care
00:36 < archbox_> nah
00:37 <@fenn> a large part of the problem with how medicine is practiced is most doctors don't know it, and don't have time to find the "correct" answer
00:37 < chido> I quite enjoyed Singhs book Trick or Treatment on this topic, I wonder if anyone else did
00:37 <@fenn> it's not like "house"
00:37 < archbox_> fuck http://chriskresser.com/the-truth-about-flu-shots-and-what-to-do-instead
00:37 < archbox_> >So, that means avoiding foods that tend to weaken the immune system such as excess sugar, refined flour, unprepared grains perhaps and legumes, industrial seed oils, and other highly processed and refined foods.
00:37 <@fenn> they walk in, look at your chart, glance at you, write a prescription for adderall or cipro
00:38 < archbox_> what
00:38 < archbox_> how come i've never gotten adderall yet
00:38 < archbox_> why are they holding out on me :(
00:38 <@fenn> because you didn't ask for it?
00:38 < archbox_> whelp
00:38 <@kanzure> fenn: i had this intense week of testing away-from-home when i was little, and that's how i got prescribed stimulants. it was not a walk-in procedure -_-.
00:39 <@fenn> that's because you're a mutant
00:39 <@kanzure> hit by a radioactive crt, etc..
00:39 < archbox_> kanzure: what are the best stimulants?
00:39 <@fenn> define "best"
00:40 < archbox_> few sides, I guess. Modafinil?
00:40 <@fenn> modafinil has side effects too
00:40 < archbox_> I mean, this is ##hplusroadmap. what do you guys take?
00:40 <@fenn> dry mouth, nausea, angstyness
00:41 < archbox_> >Trouble sleeping
00:41 < jrayhawk> i try to sleep properly
00:41 < archbox_> who da fuck put that there
00:41 <@kanzure> sleeping is for the weak
00:41 <@kanzure> and the tired
00:41 < archbox_> whelp
00:41 <@kanzure> as kirka put it, sleepy people are just depressed
00:41 < archbox_> jrayhawk: how much melatonin?
00:41 <@fenn> actually i slept fine on modafinil, and woke up feeling great
00:41 < archbox_> fenn: yeah it seems pretty tame compared to amphetamine salts
00:42 < jrayhawk> I don't know, I haven't taken a blood test for that.
00:42 < archbox_> thanks guys
00:42 < archbox_> fenn: how do i ask for moda?
00:43 <@fenn> you order it from india online
00:43 < archbox_> ><@fenn> they walk in, look at your chart, glance at you, write a prescription for adderall or cipro
00:43 < archbox_> I see nothing about india there
00:43 < archbox_> were you talking about western medicine or eastern?
00:43 <@fenn> adderall is not modafinil
00:44 <@fenn> a doctor won't give you a prescription for modafinil
00:44 < archbox_> oh so schedule II drugs are easier to get than schedule IV. cool
00:44 <@fenn> unless you're a pilot or have narcolepsy
00:44 <@fenn> hey man i didn't write the rules
00:44 < archbox_> whelp
00:44 < archbox_> so is adderall pretty cool?>
00:44 <@kanzure> why are you here
00:44 < archbox_> kanzure: h+
00:44 < archbox_> biohacking
00:44 < archbox_> noots
00:45 < archbox_> I already take noopept, l-theanine, and caffeine
00:45 <@fenn> what benefit do you get from l-theanine?
00:45 < archbox_> fewer sides from caffeine, relaxing
00:47 <@fenn> "L-theanine is a glutamic acid analog with chemical similarities to the inhibitory neurotransmitter, γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA)"  probably why i didn't like it
00:47 < archbox_> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21040626
00:47 < archbox_> it's in green tea
00:48 < archbox_> it's natural bro. obviously safe
00:48 <@fenn> i know
00:48 < archbox_> then what _do_ you take?
00:49 <@fenn> well, i've tried lots of stuff and had some success, but not as much luck figuring out what exactly i did
00:50 < archbox_> how long have you guys been into transhumanism? Surely you have developed some form of a stack
00:51 <@fenn> i like b vitamins, piracetam, noopept, chocolate, magnesium citrate, fish oil, butter, cordyceps, chlorella, DMAE, and various other racetams and tryptamines
00:51 < archbox_> we are on like the same stack
00:52 <@fenn> that's not a stack, that's a pile
00:52 < archbox_> esp. since they are powders :<
00:52 < archbox_> i'm on b complex, sulbutiamine, benfotiamine, noopept, cocoa, magnesium glycinate, fish oil, cordyceps, chlorella, reishi, bacopa, handful of other things
00:53 <@fenn> reishi fucked me up.. i guess i have naturally low blood sugar
00:53 < archbox_> oh? You got hypoglycemic?
00:53 < archbox_> sorry to hear that :(
00:53 <@fenn> i thought it would help with altitude sickness
00:54 < archbox_> how much did you take?
00:54 <@fenn> probably too much.. i boiled one sliced mushroom in water for a few hours and drank 1/4 of that
00:54 < archbox_> wow. thanks for the heads up
00:54 < archbox_> I won't try megadosing it
00:55 < archbox_> anyway, thanks for the help. 'night fellows
00:56 <@fenn> hm maybe i'll try bacopa again
00:57 <@fenn> woah "In a clinical study with six patients, benfotiamine lowered AGE by 40%"
00:58 <@fenn> oh "inhibits formation of AGE"
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01:05 < wrldpc> There seems to be no desire on part of the Marine Corps to adopt substantive change in the way they handle science and technology.  I don't know if it's because the MC is slaved to the Navy but you'd think somebody would press for greater autonomy given the fact that the MC *is* a much smaller, more versatile force.
01:06 < wrldpc> and everyone is constantly bitching about the budget.  "we don't have money for this money for that" ffs just cut the ties to these shitty legacy proprietary software archons and pursue the open source route.
01:07 <@fenn> lol "We calculated that you need to vaccinate between 33 and 99 people to prevent a single case of flu"
01:09 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/pioneering-researcher-alessio-fasano-m-d-on-gluten-autoimmunity-leaky-gut is also quite good
01:09 <@fenn> that quote was from someone at cochrane.. hard to get any more mainstream "show me the evidence" than that
01:12 < wrldpc> does grapefruit juice universally produce greater bioavailability of compounds or only a select few?
01:13 < wrldpc> the piracetam I'm taking in conjunction with the choline seems to do nothing … and I'm up to like 3-5g doses.
01:14 <@fenn> piracetam doesn't do anything in some people, and even when it does, it's not obvious
01:14 <@fenn> it's more obvious when taken with other drugs
01:16 <@fenn> the effect is higher muscular coordination and being able to say exactly what you mean
01:16 <@fenn> the grapfruit juice effect is complicated, because some chemicals are inactivated by cyp3a4 and others are deactivated by it
01:16 <@fenn> activated*
01:17 <@fenn> that is, many "drugs" are actually pro-drugs
01:18 < bkero> wrldpc: congratulations, your body produces enough of those already
01:19 <@fenn> your body doesn't produce either of those
01:19 < wrldpc> what else can I stack with it to make it pop?  I've tried huperzine … I think DMAE too.
01:19 < wrldpc> yeah DMAE but the pills are ridiculous.
01:20 <@fenn> try caffeine
01:20 < wrldpc> I was hoping Cortex would bring the CX ampakines to market.  Never happened.  Their stock tanked.
01:20 < wrldpc> rog
01:20 <@fenn> aw that's too bad
01:21 <@fenn> oh, vinpocetine works with caffeine nicely as well
01:22 <@fenn> i don't typically drink caffeine drinks because i have a slow metabolism and it lasts for ~12 hours
01:23 <@fenn> and then i build up a tolerance after a couple weeks
01:23 <@fenn> it's great if you have to exercise though
01:29 <@fenn> jrayhawk: i read a lot about "organ meats" but what is that exactly?
01:29 < wrldpc> I've heard a Marine Corps martial arts instructor comment on how the chocolate-covered coffee beans get him through the early hour training sessions.
01:30 <@fenn> i'm not about to start eating cow brain (assuming i could get it)
01:33 <@fenn> dammit i just want my food to come in shelf-stable bricks, is that so much to ask/
01:36 <@fenn> come on, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bull_penis_cocktail.jpg
01:36 < bkero> ...
01:37 < bkero> do I really want to click that?
01:37 < jrayhawk> Cow brain is an excellent source of K2
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01:38 <@fenn> fuck that i'll eat natto
01:38 < jrayhawk> Usually people are talking about liver, though, which has a lot of interesting stuff in it.
01:38 < jrayhawk> ha ha wow, that's a brave position to take
01:39 < jrayhawk> i guess i haven't really tried natto, i wonder if it's more disgusting than shark
01:39 <@fenn> i'd think saliva glands would be a good source of k2
01:40 < jrayhawk> hm. interesting thought.
01:40 <@fenn> another think you won't find at the store
01:40 <@fenn> at least i can just buy natto
01:41 < jrayhawk> Yeah, carving meat out of a jaw is not an efficient use of time.
01:41 < jrayhawk> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Benefit-Of-Cod-Liver-Oil.html
01:42 < jrayhawk> but don't eat bear liver. never eat bear liver.
01:42 < jrayhawk> enough retinol in an ounce to kill you.
01:42 <@fenn> i hear it will cure pimples :P
01:42 <@fenn> if your skin doesnt slough off first
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06:48 < wrldpc> natto is gross man!
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09:42 <@kanzure> "The winner of the 2012 Feynman Prize for Experiment is the team of Gerhard Meyer, Leo Gross, and Jascha Repp for their work to produce images of molecular orbitals and charges detailed enough to identify the structure of individual molecules, as well as metal-molecule complexes. They have also been able to precisely make and break individual chemical bonds."
09:43 <@kanzure> "The winner of the 2012 Feynman Prize for Theory is David Soloveichik of University of California, San Francisco, for his general theory of DNA displacement cascades. In particular, he has shown that they are Turing-complete, and so can be made to run any general-purpose computer program."
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10:19 < nmz787> those feynman guys sound like hot stuff
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10:23 <@kanzure> nmz787: these prizes are from foresight institute
10:24 <@kanzure> foresight was hosting the reprap/gada prize for a while until it turned out they may or may not have been taking money out of it (nobody was able to really clarify this)
10:24 <@kanzure> which is about when i stepped up to move that prize fund out of foresight and into another org
10:41 < nmz787> did you?
10:41 < nmz787> find a new place for it?
10:42 <@kanzure> humanityplus
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10:49 < eudoxia> which as it turns out wasn't that great an org either
10:50 <@kanzure> well, my goal was to make sure the money stays put
10:50 <@kanzure> not, in that case, to fix the entire transhumanist organization community
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11:02 <@kanzure> spider-built spider decoys http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/12/spider-building-spider/
11:02 <@kanzure> http://blog.perunature.com/2012/12/new-species-of-decoy-spider-likely.html
11:03 <@kanzure> wtf wired has pop-up ads now?
11:06 < nmz787> kanzure: is there any way to review the code for something liek this https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/remove-google-redirects/ccenmflbeofaceccfhhggbagkblihpoh/details
11:07 <@kanzure> yes
11:08 <@kanzure> get the .crx file and unzip it
11:11 <@kanzure> nmz787: here it is.. http://paste.ubuntu.com/1450596/
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11:31 <@kanzure> nmz787: fenn knows autorouting things, btw
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11:53 < jrayhawk> yeah not being able to copy and paste links from the google search index was the most annoying change they've made
11:53 < jrayhawk> ddg thankfully doesn't do that
11:55 <@kanzure> it's too bad that nobody has figured out how to make exact symbol search work
11:55 <@kanzure> i mean, work in the sense that it doesn't cost them too much money or resources
11:57 <@kanzure> "As to “making chemistry available to a wider audience”, I don’t want to prejudge and then be surprised, but from where I sit, scholarly articles are much less accessible than they were 10 years ago."
11:58 <@kanzure> "Just look at our cancellation list. Or do the scary exercise of seeing how many journals in Worldcat have less than 10 current subscribing institutions listed."
11:58 <@kanzure> huh i didn't know that worldcat shows that
11:58 <@kanzure> oh it's probably just has-a-physical-print-version information
12:00 <@kanzure> fenn: hah, that merckindex url was apparently not supposed to be public...
12:00 <@kanzure> "I am sending this message on behalf of PerkinElmer Informatics to clarify the conditions under which The Merck Index 14th Edition can be accessed online from PerkinElmer, following messages posted on CHMINF-L pointing out an "open" URL that allowed apparently free access."
12:00 <@kanzure> "Online access to The Merck Index 14th Edition provided by PerkinElmer Informatics is only available at http://themerckindex.cambridgesoft.com: apart from a free two week trial, this requires payment of a license fee and access is controlled by username/password or IP authentication."
12:01 <@kanzure> "Access via any other URL is not approved. The "open" URL posted on CHMINF-L (http://themerckindex.chemfinder.com) was made open inadvertently, and has now been closed."
12:01 <@kanzure> "PerkinElmer Informatics apologizes for any misunderstanding or confusion created by the unintended open access." yeah uh.. that's not what Open Access means.
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12:36 <@kanzure> is ChemDraw or ChemBio worth anything to anyone?
12:37 <@kanzure> or ChemScript
12:43 < nmz787> jrayhawk: does nixtimilaztion fix gliadin?
12:43 < nmz787> kanzure those progs look OK
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12:55 <@kanzure> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 999 No Hacking
12:55 <@kanzure> iis is a bitch
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13:45 < jrayhawk> nmz787: Possibly! There are a lot of processing techniques in traditional cultures to increase digestability, including soaking, roasting, sun-drying, and fermenting that are known to bust up phytates, lectins, and may do the same for prolamines, but it'd be very hard to fight contamination issues.
13:45 < jrayhawk> Flour does not like being contained.
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14:42 <@kanzure> http://inventors-against-patents.org/
14:43 <@kanzure> looks like they have nobody listed, haha
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16:06 < chris_99> a friend of mine is trying to do a sixth-sense type project, and we're thinking of different low powered actuators, just wondering if you guys have any ideas?
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16:25 <@kanzure> "They don't use that selector as far as I know, because it's very brittle. Something like [class|='span'] would only match classes starting with 'span-' if they are the first class in the class list. So it wouldn't match something like '<div class="stacked span-5"></div>'"
16:25 <@kanzure> gah
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18:22 < archbox_> hey guys intranasal insuling can  double memory performance in healthy adults. Is anyone here gonna jump on that?
18:22 < archbox_> insulin*
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18:54 < curtiss> sure why not
18:54  * curtiss snorts a fat rail of insulin
18:54 < archbox_> o?
18:54 < archbox_> curtiss: do you do any legit biohacking?
18:54 <@kanzure> legit?
18:54 <@kanzure> yes i use git
18:54 < curtiss> lol
18:54 < curtiss> le git
18:54 < archbox_> wow
18:55 < archbox_> lol le meme face dot tumblr dot com
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18:55 < jrayhawk> insulin is your glucose homeostasis hormone; shuttling glucose and BCAAs into your muscle and adipose tissue without actually having any incoming glucose is not a particularly safe thing to do to your blood sugar levels.
18:56 < archbox_> But it doubles your memory
18:56 < jrayhawk> have fun with that
18:56 < archbox_> And intranasal mostly goes to your brain, not your other cells
18:56 < archbox_> wow
18:56 < archbox_> rude
18:56 < archbox_> jrayhawk: do you even biohack?
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18:57 < jrayhawk> oh, i see, so you're forcing glucose into your brain
18:57 < archbox_> kanzure: reddit?
18:57 < archbox_> jrayhawk: yeah it works really well
18:58 < curtiss> it's true
18:58 < curtiss> i went from 80 GB to 160 in one snort
18:58 < archbox_> okay is everyone in here just trolling?
18:58 < archbox_> Or am I the only one actually interested in h+?
18:58 < curtiss> speak for yourself bro
18:58 < jrayhawk> okay, see, the thing is, cells use up glucose metabolizing cofactors, and, when they run out of those cofactors, you get *neuronal insulin resistance*
18:59 < jrayhawk> so this might be a neat party trick every once in a while, but you can't do it consistently
18:59 < archbox_> eh. so we need intranasal glucose metabolizing cofactors?
18:59 < jrayhawk> you can't supercharge a cell; there are limits on oxidative stress
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18:59 < archbox_> huh. so i need intranasal antioxidants
19:00 < jrayhawk> you can't supplement away damage
19:01 < jrayhawk> though i do encourage you to work very very hard on controlling cortisol and amping up glutathione production if you try this
19:01 < archbox_> jrayhawk: do you do anything?
19:01 < archbox_> and, thanks :)
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19:05 < jrayhawk> for the record, when you get muscular insulin resistance, it's physiologically normal, when you get hepatic insulin resistance, it's dangerous but easily reversable, when you get neuronal insulin resistance, you get permanent brain damage
19:05 <@kanzure> transcriptic.com just raised $1.2M
19:07 < archbox_> th-thanks
19:07 < AdrianG> jrayhawk: how do you know neuronal is not reversible
19:07 < jrayhawk> the resistance is reversable, but a pile of neurons have apoptosed in the meantime.
19:08 < jrayhawk> same would be true of hepatic cells, but they regrow pretty fast
19:09 < archbox_> so if i take noopept i'll get NGF and BDNF and i'll be good?
19:09 < jrayhawk> muscle cells run fine on fat/ketones, so eh, they're fine
19:10 < jrayhawk> http://vimeo.com/52645372 is a decent talk on why insulin signalling works the way it does
19:10 < archbox_> jrayhawk: do you study medicine?
19:11 < jrayhawk> although the first half of it "please, low-carbers, shut up and leave me alone for the second half"
19:11 < jrayhawk> +is
19:12 < archbox_> so doing keto fucks up your brain?
19:12 < jrayhawk> Not terribly, though it usually does some thyroid downregulation once you hit leptin homeostasis for, like, a week.
19:12 < archbox_> ah, so you should supplement T3?
19:14 < jrayhawk> Well, your muscles can actually use more glycogen than your liver can keep up with, so a certain amount of energy downregulation is called for.
19:14 < archbox_> this is all starting ot make sense
19:14 < archbox_> jrayhawk: did you know that you can order T3 online directly from merck and it's pretty cheap?
19:15 < jrayhawk> the liver would be deriving that glucose from gluconeogenesis, which would be catabolizing tissues, most commonly muscle, for whatever period you don't have BCAAs in your bloodstream from food
19:15 < archbox_> I have BCAA powder
19:15 < jrayhawk> Yes, but I assume you sleep at night.
19:15 < jrayhawk> or, rather, you sleep for eight hours at some point
19:16 < archbox_> is it possible to put BCAA's in IV?
19:16 < jrayhawk> Probably.
19:16 < archbox_> k i'll tell my doctor i'm going to do keto and hopefully get a prescriptoin
19:17 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/thyroid you might want to do some reading on thyroid hormone pathways before attempting to goose everything with T3
19:18 < archbox_> yeah i know about that
19:18 < archbox_> so obviously more T3 = better
19:18 < archbox_> put some stress off your thyroid
19:18 < jrayhawk> uh, well, no
19:18 < archbox_> >mental slowing, depression, dementia, weight gain, constipation, dry skin, hair loss, cold intolerance, hoarse voice, irregular menstruation, infertility, muscle stiffness and pain
19:18 < archbox_> you want that shit?
19:18 < archbox_> by more i mean microgram doses
19:18 < archbox_> obviously railing a gram of T3 would kill you
19:20 < jrayhawk> You're disrupting homeostatic feedback systems again without thinking about the consequences. You're going to drive the body to produce massive amounts of RT3 in response.
19:21 < archbox_> o?
19:22 < archbox_> still though
19:22 < archbox_> it's better than getting dry skin and fat
19:23 < AdrianG> lol RT3
19:23 < AdrianG> jrayhawk: T3 is rx'd when you are producing too much RT3. dont be stupid.
19:23 < AdrianG> also archbox_
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19:24 < AdrianG> are you going to tell the entire world to buy T3 from merck
19:24 < jrayhawk> Yes, standard of care is awful.
19:24 < archbox_> nah, only biohackers
19:24 < jrayhawk> Doctors do pretty much the same naive disruption of homeostatic feedback systems that archbox_ wants to do.
19:24 < archbox_> wow
19:25 < archbox_> >naive
19:25 < jrayhawk> This is why the medical system is projected to bankrupt the economy by about 2030.
19:25 < archbox_> jrayhawk: so what do you recommend?
19:26 <@fenn> increasing your iodine intake is a safe(r) way to start
19:26 < jrayhawk> Yeah, that's great for thyroid.
19:26 < jrayhawk> Also psychological stress management, also oxidative stress management, also inflammation management
19:27 <@fenn> seaweed, shrimp, ummm.. kelp powder perhaps
19:27 < archbox_> how much iodine?
19:27 < archbox_> I take KI
19:27 < archbox_> 150mcg
19:27 <@fenn> well you're probably fine on iodine then
19:27 < archbox_> oh
19:27 < archbox_> what other drugs are good?
19:27 < archbox_> for thyroid?
19:27 < archbox_> aspirin?
19:27 < archbox_> (inflammation)
19:28 <@fenn> are you saying you have the symptoms of hypothyroidism?
19:29 <@fenn> because there is such a thing as hyperthyroidism too
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19:31 <@fenn> oh i see, you want to do a ketogenic diet and not get t3 downregulation
19:31 <@fenn> i think the answer there is to eat some carbs once a week
19:31 < jrayhawk> Post-workout is best if you want to stay adapted.
19:32 < jrayhawk> The peak in insulin is what matters, rather than the volume.
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19:46 <@fenn> "t3 increases the rate of protein degradation, and, in excess, the rate of protein degradation exceeds the rate of protein synthesis. In such situations, the body may go into negative ion balance."
19:47 < AdrianG> negtive ion balance O.O
19:47 < AdrianG> zomg
19:48 <@fenn> do you ever have anything constructive to say?
19:48 < AdrianG> actually increasing iodine wont necessarly make more T3 available centrally
19:48 < jrayhawk> oh, right, you're still here
19:48 < AdrianG> thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard.
19:48 < jrayhawk> AdrianG: in general, if you want to cite standard of care, you should first look up the efficacy of the treatment you're describing
19:48 < AdrianG> also, increasing T3 will not increase RT3. it will reduce T3.
19:48 < jrayhawk> increasing t3 will reduce t3
19:48 < jrayhawk> got it
19:49 < AdrianG> rt3, grow a brain to detect typos
19:50 < AdrianG> it is metabolically impossible to produce more RT3 if exogenous T3 is given.
19:50 < jrayhawk> oooohkay, where exactly does the T4 go, then?
19:51 < AdrianG> T4 production will be suppressed by exogenous T3
19:51 < AdrianG> suppressed or attenuated, depending on the dose.
19:51 < AdrianG> T4 production will fall, RT3 will be eventually cleared.
19:52 < AdrianG> increasing iodine intake in hopes of producing more T3 is also far from guaranteed.
19:53 <@fenn> it only matters if you're iodine deficient, however many people in america are deficient
19:53 < AdrianG> you could have an ineffective transport of T4 thru BBB, and end up with peripheral thyrotoxicosis, while still centrally-deficient
19:53 < AdrianG> much safer and effective to take a correct dose of T3.
20:00 <@fenn> looking over this again, (i'm not thyroid expert) it seems like jrayhawk meant somatostatin, not RT3
20:00 < jrayhawk> No, it's a matter of tanking TBG levels and effectively getting T3 resistance.
20:01 < jrayhawk> well, i guess T3 resistance is not the right way to think about it.
20:02 < jrayhawk> genuine resistance is an actual thing and would look different
20:02 <@fenn> reduced half-life?
20:05 < jrayhawk> anyway, thyroid is annoyingly complicated and standard of care has really shitty efficacy for it
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20:08 < AdrianG> lo
20:08 < AdrianG> thats why replacing either l-thyroxine or T3, or in combination works most of the time.
20:08 < AdrianG> because its just so shitty.
20:08 < jrayhawk> It does nothing for the underlying etiology.
20:09 < AdrianG> lol are you serious
20:09 < jrayhawk> Yes?
20:09 < AdrianG> wow.
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20:15 < AdrianG> in practical terms, etiology is not important.
20:15 < AdrianG> GPs are there to provide treatment, not conduct research.
20:17 < jrayhawk> Thyroid disregulation is a symptom, not a disease. GPs treating it as a disease are typically making the actual disease worse.
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20:17 < jrayhawk> Although in the scenario above the thyroid downregulation was physiologically normal and appropriate.
20:18 < jrayhawk> The archbox_ one, that is.
20:18 < archbox_> thanks!
20:18 < jrayhawk> hello!
20:18 < jrayhawk> Or, rather, the long-term ketosis one
20:18 < AdrianG> jrayhawk: in what scenario
20:18 < AdrianG> ketosis?
20:19 < archbox_> ya
20:19 < archbox_> keto
20:25 < jrayhawk> "Disease management" vs "health care" is the pithy shorthand.
20:26 < archbox_> jrayhawk: are you an eastern doctor?
20:27  * fenn giggles
20:29 < jrayhawk> i would tell you, but the scapulae tell me it would bring me bad fortune
20:30 < archbox_> whelp
20:30 < archbox_> do you guys take aspirin daily?
20:30 <@fenn> i used to, but decided against it
20:30 < archbox_> ah, due to the ulcers?
20:30 < archbox_> or were you bleeding too much?
20:31 <@fenn> no, because it blocks prostaglandin synthesis
20:31 < archbox_> ah. Exercise?
20:31 < jrayhawk> NSAIDs are pretty nasty in general.
20:31 <@fenn> i wasn't suffering any symptoms from aspirin, if that's what you're asking
20:31 < archbox_> weren't you saying earlier to remove inflammation, jrayhawk ?
20:31 < archbox_> wouldn't an NSAID do that?
20:32 <@fenn> yes but you can develop vasculature problems, see the vioxx recall for example
20:32 < jrayhawk> That would mitigate inflammatory response to an inflammatory agent, but that just makes things easier for the inflammatory agent.
20:32 < archbox_> cuz COX2 inhibition?
20:32 < archbox_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib#Other_COX-2_inhibitors
20:32 <@fenn> jrayhawk: that's assuming it's some kind of infection, which is often not the case
20:33 <@fenn> in first world anyway
20:33 < jrayhawk> First world has intestinal permeability; they're pretty much fucked anyway.
20:33 < archbox_> is taking 40-81mg aspirin really that much of a COX-2 inhibitor?
20:33 < archbox_> jrayhawk: dat gluten
20:34 <@fenn> no, 81 is a pretty low dose
20:34 < archbox_> oh. were you taking a full aspirin a day?
20:34 < archbox_> for longevity people usually just take one baby aspirin or half
20:34 < archbox_> so 40 or 81
20:35 <@fenn> "COX-2 mediates the synthesis of prostaglandins responsible for pain and inflammation." is only half of the story
20:35 < archbox_> o?
20:37 <@fenn> it also synthesizes prostaglandins which are vasodilatory and inhibit platelet aggregation
20:39 <@fenn> the great thing about biology is there's so much to learn... :\
20:40 <@fenn> hormones are complex and complicated. i'm looking at this to try to get a better answer for you http://www.itmonline.org/arts/lox.htm
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20:43 < archbox_> Oh, I realize that COX-2 inhibitors can fuck you up. I was asking if 81mg aspirin would do this
20:43 < archbox_> aspirin isn't much of a COX-2 inhibitor, right?
20:43 <@fenn> it inhibits cox-1 and cox-2
20:44 <@fenn> irreversibly, on a mole-for-mole basis
20:44 <@fenn> but fortunately we're making new cox proteins all the time
20:44 < archbox_> this sounds like aspirin acts differently from COX-2 inhibitors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin#COX-1_and_COX-2_inhibition
20:45 <@fenn> the idea behind cox-2 selective inhibitors was to prevent the side effects from inhibiting cox-1
20:45 <@fenn> but it didn't work as intended, because it turns out we need cox-2 also (duh)
20:46 <@fenn> it's fine for short-term injury treatment, but not if you take it continuously every day for years
20:47 < jrayhawk> archbox_: the quick summary of inflammation/oxidation management: stop eating grains and legumes, greatly curtail fructose and linoleic acid, eat a lot of nutrient-dense foods, including seafood and organ meats, get sunlight or supplement with a lot of D3, avoid cortisol-inducing stresses, be gentle to your intestinal flora and give them lots of soluable fiber and try not do dump too many alkali or antiseptic agents down there.
20:47 < jrayhawk> am i missing anything
20:47 <@fenn> magnesium
20:48 < jrayhawk> oh yeah, industrial agriculture sucks, try to find long-term organic farms with fresh produce
20:50 < jrayhawk> though fossil fuel agriculture actually screwed up some stuff pretty permanently in some areas, so i guess magnesium supplementation might be necessary :/
20:51 <@fenn> water purification systems block the main magnesium source in the diet
20:51 < jrayhawk> oh yeah, long-term hardcore ketosis was also hell on my gut flora
20:52 < jrayhawk> i guess keto does not necessarily mean zero carb, but some people seem to treat it that way
20:53 <@fenn> i never understood why keto was regarded as a good thing
20:53 <@fenn> acetone in your blood?
20:53 < jrayhawk> Eh, acetone's not particularly scary.
20:54 < archbox_> jrayhawk: is it okay that i take r-faction alpha lipoic acid?
20:54 < archbox_> and yeah i basically eat paleo so what you said is what i do
20:54 < jrayhawk> Oh, yeah, Alpha lipoic acid is neat stuff. Popular in eastern medicine, too!
20:54 < archbox_> yeah i thought of it when you mentioned the omega 6 (even though they aren't related they sound similar :< )
20:55 < archbox_> ALA vs. LA
20:55 < jrayhawk> actually more obnoxious is ALA vs ALA
20:55 < archbox_> fuck
20:55 < archbox_> yeah
20:55 < jrayhawk> Alpha lipoic acid and alpha linoleic acid
20:56 <@fenn> as long as nobody starts selling pills with "essential omega 6" we'll be fine
20:56 < archbox_> they do
20:56 < archbox_> rip
20:56 < jrayhawk> Alpha lipoic acid has lots of neat metabolic effects and alpha linoleic acid's primary useful function is competing with LA for receptors
20:56 < jrayhawk> which is to say alpha linoleic acid is actually pretty useless
20:56 < archbox_> :<
20:57 < jrayhawk> fenn: I dunno, I'd be perfectly willing to eat an AA pill.
20:57 < archbox_> hey, some small percent of it can be converted to EPA and DHA
20:57 <@fenn> jrayhawk: to what benefit?
20:57 < jrayhawk> I mean, assuming it hasn't been heat treated and esterified to hell and back.
20:57 < jrayhawk> AA is complimentary to DHA for neural construction.
20:57 < archbox_> fenn: muscle gainz
20:57 < archbox_> oh
20:58 < archbox_> jrayhawk: there's quite a bit of AA in animal products, no? Do organ meats have a lot?
20:58 < jrayhawk> Yeah, liver and egg yolks are the big ones.
20:58 < archbox_> specifically: chicken hearts (because I eat those probably more often than I should)
20:59 < archbox_> I have livers sometimes too
20:59 < jrayhawk> Heart is almost entirely protein.
20:59 < archbox_> yeah I cook it in fat
20:59 < archbox_> I usually use coconut oil or butter/ghee for cooking
20:59 < jrayhawk> fenn: also the elongase reaction throws off a shitload of cytokines, so the more AA you have, the less your body will attempt to manufacture.
21:00 < jrayhawk> s/so/and/
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21:01 <@fenn> i thought AA was pro-inflamatory
21:02 <@fenn> from barry sears, "The simple definition of an anti-inflammatory diet is one
21:02 <@fenn> that prevents the excess production of AA
21:02 <@fenn> hereby reducing the
21:02 <@fenn> key substrate for the generation of pro-inflammatory eicosanoids.
21:03  * fenn grumbles about pdfs
21:03 < jrayhawk> He's right! We totally want to avoid production!
21:03 < archbox_> fenn: not necessarily, but it ay cancel out the benefits of omega 3's
21:03 <@fenn> AA is the substrate that gets turned into pro-inflammatory eicosanoids
21:03 < archbox_> may*
21:03 < archbox_> anitinflammatory benefit, that is.
21:04 < archbox_> fenn: the body only does that when it needs inflammation
21:04 < archbox_> AA doesn't cause chronic inflammation
21:04 < archbox_> If you never get inflammation then you won't get much benefit from exercise
21:04 <@fenn> bah
21:05 < archbox_> whelp :<
21:05 < archbox_> yeah fenn over in ##nutrition we had a big discussion awhile ago about AA.
21:06 < jrayhawk> http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?aid=1304684 http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=1304764&jid=BJN&volumeId=98&issueId=03&aid=1304756 http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=236447
21:07 <@fenn> jrayhawk: do you have like a zillion bookmarks all sorted and ready ot go?
21:07 <@kanzure> why not?
21:07 < jrayhawk> Sorta. I keep meaning to put this in a wiki.
21:08 <@fenn> i used to have a good bookmark file but lost track of it once i joined this channel :P
21:09 < jrayhawk> In the context of a diet deficient in DHA, I am perfectly willing to believe that piling AA on the lipid fire is a bad idea, of course.
21:18 <@fenn> i wonder if AA is the reason for the "butter mind" phenomenon
21:19 <@fenn> (the observation that eating half a stick of butter improves simple math problem reaction times)
21:19 <@kanzure> maybe instead of a titlebot we can have a bookmarkbot
21:20 < jrayhawk> well, that and the saturated fat
21:20 <@fenn> why would saturated fat affect the brain?
21:20 < jrayhawk> IIRC the QSers doing that butter testing were starting from a SAD diet, which is fairly deficient
21:20 < archbox_> MCT's do something beneficial, no?
21:21 <@fenn> anyway coconut oil didn't show the effect
21:21 < jrayhawk> ah, interesting
21:21 < jrayhawk> okay
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21:26 <@fenn> this sounds useful for wearable computing (p300 eeg wave) "Generally speaking, improbable events will elicit a P3b, and the less probable the event, the larger the P3b."
21:27 <@kanzure> dump everything after 5min when an improbable thing does not occur?
21:27 <@fenn> you could automatically trigger high-def recording when a p3b is observed
21:27 <@kanzure> you need it before it's observed
21:28 <@fenn> the problem is determining whether it exists or not; usually it's being observed in a lab setting where the stimulus is known and controlled by the experimenter
21:28 < nmz787> jrayhawk: where's arachidonate come from?
21:28 <@fenn> kanzure: easy enough to store a ring buffer of n seconds
21:29 < nmz787> last week a friend and i discussed a wide-band SDR that monitored your head
21:30 < nmz787> he mentioned it being possible with phased arrays maybe
21:30 < nmz787> so you can shape the antenna
21:30 <@kanzure> nmz787: you should ask fenn about autorouting things
21:30 <@fenn> autorouting sucks
21:30 < nmz787> fenn autorouting is needed
21:30 < nmz787> or at least length matching
21:30 <@fenn> supposedly altium works okay but it's very expensive
21:30 < nmz787> and curve addition
21:30 <@fenn> length matching is a different beast
21:31 <@fenn> just add more squiggles
21:31 <@fenn> i think both kicad and gEDA (and eagle) do length matching
21:32 <@fenn> the neat thing about phased arrays is you can do the "beam forming" after the fact
21:33 <@fenn> i like the idea of topo router, and supposedly there was a plugin written for gEDA, but it's not maintained and there's no documentation
21:34 < jrayhawk> nmz787: most mammals, including humans, are reasonably good at elongating/desaturating linoleic acid to archadonic acid
21:34 <@fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TopoR
21:35 < jrayhawk> in humans, there's a big 'oh shit' inflammatory signal in doing so, though; presumably it signals a diet low in animal protein
21:37 <@fenn> so perhaps taking GLA along with AA will reduce inflammation
21:38 < jrayhawk> Might be true.
21:39 < jrayhawk> There are also ways of influencing the pathway. "Having enough of certain nutrients in the body (including magnesium, zinc, and vitamins C, B3, and B6) helps promote the conversion of GLA to DGLA."
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22:24 < nmz787> GLA being a non inflammatory arachidonic derivative?
22:29 < jrayhawk> GLA also being useful and also being costly for the body to manufacture
22:29 < jrayhawk> costly in terms of inflammatory signaling
22:37 <@kanzure> IV owns "Accelerando Development, LLC"
22:37 <@kanzure> charles stross should hurry up and die so he can roll in his grave
22:40 <@kanzure> it looks like transcriptic is leading angel list's online investment feature
22:40 <@kanzure> i thought transcriptic was just sent to me in their announcement email because they identified me as having looked at it before
22:40 <@kanzure> but it seems instead to be the default that everyone sees
22:58 < nmz787> do we know this guy http://www.instructables.com/member/argon/
23:10 <@fenn> i've never met him
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23:46 <@kanzure> "Myhrvold started buying equipment for the research kitchen in the Intellectual Ventures lab. Much of the equipment was standard cooking equipment, but it also included items such as rotor-stator homogenizers, ultrahigh-pressure homogenizers, freeze-dryers, a 50 G centrifuge,[1] ultrasonic baths, and rotary evaporators.[9]"
23:46 <@kanzure> "The laboratory already included other high-tech and industrial equipment,[10] a 100-ton hydraulic press,[10] a large water-jet cutter, an electrical discharge machine, and automated milling machines."
23:47 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Myhrvold
23:47 <@kanzure> i thought IV just had lots of holding companies
23:47 <@fenn> didnt they do the laser mosquito shooter
23:51 <@fenn> oh, he wrote modernist cuisine, cool
23:52 <@fenn> gah, only the CTO of microsoft would patent a geoengineering scheme for reversing global warming
--- Log closed Thu Dec 20 00:00:04 2012