--- Log opened Fri Dec 28 00:00:13 2012
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00:00 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=31151513 Bryan Bishop: improve the section on the precautionary principle
00:00 < nmz787> so the micro structure doesnt collapse
00:01 < nmz787> i got thinking about this after we went to the movies last week
00:01 <@fenn> oh, i was thinking for dna chromatography or something
00:01 < nmz787> they had a 4k projector (4 times area of bluray)
00:01 < nmz787> but i could still see significant chromatic aberration on black on white lettering
00:02 <@fenn> heh
00:02 <@fenn> you'd think they would calibrate that out
00:02 <@fenn> i think jaydugger does something along those lines for his day job
00:02 < nmz787> and i was thinking, why didn't they spend a few more thousand on better optics... or do those not exist? or are they phenomenally more expensive?
00:03 < nmz787> like isn't there a 'perfect' way to do optics?
00:03 <@fenn> it could be just improper assembly
00:03 < nmz787> i guess there's not a 'perfect' way to do electronics unless you get superconductors
00:03 < nmz787> so what are the superconductors of light?
00:04 <@fenn> like, the machine works as designed, but you have to align it after putting it together
00:04 <@fenn> vacuum
00:04 < nmz787> the problem is shit being non-linearized
00:04 <@fenn> you know how superconductors work?
00:04 <@fenn> i guess not
00:05 < nmz787> i assume its something where the conduction band is perfectly synced at all lattice locations
00:05 < nmz787> so there aren't emergent traffic jam type ripples
00:06 <@fenn> when an electron in a metal gains enough energy to leave its valence band, it moves into the space between atoms. eventually it falls into another atom's valence band and gets stuck, and this has to happen a zillion times to conduct 1 coulomb over 1 meter
00:06 <@fenn> in superconducting materials, there are ordered crystal patterns that leave charge neutral spaces, tubes that the electron can coast down without running into anything
00:07 <@fenn> that's my understanding at least
00:07 < nmz787> ok, fits well with what i sorta thought
00:08 <@fenn> jacobson coupling is like a flock of geese, one electron following another electron's wake field
00:08 <@fenn> erm, josephson
00:09 <@fenn> i hate things named after people
00:11 <@kanzure> fennetic
00:11 <@fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_pair
00:12 < nmz787> hmm
00:12 <@fenn> kanzure: that's an extension of me, of course it bears my name
00:12 < nmz787> atomic nanoscope is pretty cool
00:13 <@fenn> why is it "nanoscope" instead of "atomic beam microscope"
00:14 <@fenn> there aren't any other "nanoscopes" are there?
00:15 <@fenn> while i'm hating on naming systems, people need to stop calling every little thing "nano-something"
00:16 <@kanzure> fenn: make this suck less http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
00:16 <@kanzure> it's missing a section about transhumanist things like life extension or whole brain emulation
00:18 < nmz787> well because it has nano resolution
00:18 < nmz787> FIB is a nanoscope
00:18 < nmz787> but it uses ions not atoms
00:18 < nmz787> duh...
00:18 < nmz787> :P
00:19 <@fenn> but nobody calls it a nanoscope
00:20 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d1e2348d Bryan Bishop: fix markdown/css errors
00:22 <@fenn> is there such a thing as a neutron microscope?
00:22 <@fenn> at least you can focus neutrons with lenses, unlike helium atoms
00:23 <@kanzure> iirc there was one based on neutron scattering
00:25 <@fenn> i guess it's more like x-ray diffraction at that point
00:25 <@fenn> "In principle, neutrons could provide better image resolution than visible light because they have shorter wavelengths—as short as 1 nanometer (nm) compared to 400-700 nm. In this demonstration at NIST’s Center for Neutron Research, the microscope produced a resolution of only 0.5 millimeters and a magnification of about 10."
00:26 <@fenn> not much of a microscope
00:28 < nmz787> this is interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_reflector
00:28 <@kanzure> that's odd.. i don't recall starting this article. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GameDev.net&offset=&limit=500&action=history
00:31 <@fenn> according to the "who contributed this article" section, you did.
00:31 < nmz787> " These reflectors make use of the Fresnel lens effect, which allows for a concentrating mirror with a large aperture and short focal length while simultaneously reducing the volume of material required for the reflector. This greatly reduces the systems cost since sagged-glass parabolic reflectors are typically very expensive.[2] However, in recent years thin-film nanotechnology has significantly reduced the cost of parabolic mirrors."
00:31 < nmz787> well how the hell are the thin film ones made
00:33 <@fenn> yeah i was going to build one of those in the desert
00:35 <@kanzure> neat.. i'm rereading john carmack's email to me
00:35 <@kanzure> "If you have really hit it big, you can aim right for orbit like Elon Musk."
00:36 <@kanzure> that one is going straight to my head
00:36 <@fenn> what the hell does "in recent years thin-film nanotechnology has significantly reduced the cost of parabolic mirrors." mean
00:37 <@fenn> i guess carmack wasn't lucky enough
00:37 <@fenn> why isn't anyone doing nuclear rockets?
00:38 < nmz787> yeah i'm not finding anything interesting on google scholar
00:38 <@fenn> or at least beamed power rockets, like jordin kare's modular laser launch system
00:38 < nmz787> neither for 'fabrication perfect paraboic mirror'
00:39 < nmz787> parabolic*
00:39 <@fenn> nmz787: i dont get what films have to do with parabolic mirrors at all
00:39 <@fenn> are they talking about parabolic *fresnel* mirrors?
00:41 <@fenn> "r. The system overcomes the
00:41 <@fenn> cost barriers of traditional solar concentrators by using a new weather-proof, low-cost,
00:41 <@fenn> high-reflectance polymeric film instead of the traditional heavy, glass-based mirror."
00:41 <@fenn> yeah whatever
00:41 <@fenn> "nanotech." hrmph.
00:41 < nmz787> guess this is how they make DLP chips??? http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1333505
00:42 <@fenn> i remember seeing a process (long time ago) that didn't involve any transfer step
00:43 < nmz787> this sounded good, but I think its talking about efficient reflection 'perfect' not aberration perfect http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=5996488&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D5996488
00:45 <@fenn> the metamaterial is only tuned for perfect reflection at one wavelength
00:45 < nmz787> oO this is cool, but sounds hard http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1272576
00:46 <@fenn> isn't that the same thing?
00:47 <@fenn> oh not quite
00:47 <@fenn> this one uses conducting wires instead of dielectric plates
00:53 < nmz787> i was reading about newtons rings
00:55 < nmz787> so if you have completely flat surface, you should be able to polish glass to be perfect, but making the non-polised side of the lens flat is another thing i guess
00:56 <@fenn> i thought you were doing an all-reflective system
00:56 < nmz787> yeah i am just adding in the lens side of PITAness
00:56 <@fenn> btw making accurate optics is harder than it seems
00:57 <@fenn> i tried to make prisms once.. FAIL
00:57 < nmz787> exactly
00:58 <@fenn> i did get something that would transmit a laser beam, but it had a lot of distortion
00:59 <@fenn> i ended up using a bent piece of mirrored acrylic, worked a zillion times better
01:03 <@fenn> interesting.. superconductors have very small bandgaps, which means it might be possible to absorb and convert ambient thermal energy to electricity
01:05 <@fenn> like maxwell's demon almost
01:16 <@fenn> wow, apparently someone at UT developed an "atom diode", a wall which lets molecules in a gas go one way but not the other
01:18 <@fenn> "these methods will enable efficient isotope separation for medicine and basic research, as well as controlling atoms in gas phase for nanoscale deposition on surfaces. This new, bottom-up, approach to nanoscience is called Atomoscience"
01:18 <@fenn> :(
01:21 < nmz787> hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_tunable_filter
01:22 <@fenn> yes, and?
01:22 <@fenn> it's no different from a dichroic coating
01:26 <@fenn> nmz787: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langmuir%E2%80%93Blodgett_trough
01:31 <@fenn> lctf's are definitely useful for spectral imaging, but there are easier ways to make a spetrometer
01:42 < nmz787> hmm
01:42 < nmz787> that ensures a single surface, but not flatness
01:43 <@fenn> you can use it to construct a dichroic coating from organic polymers, presumably the sort which form liquid crystals
01:44 <@fenn> i'm just curious why you linked to the lctf page
01:47 < nmz787> ahh
01:48 < nmz787> oh just something i remembered, i knew it was pretty lossy tranmission-wise
01:48 <@fenn> oh.. blodgett films can also be tuned like a monochromator, without absorption losses
01:49 <@fenn> varying the film thickness changes the reflected wavelength
01:50 <@fenn> you vary the film thickness by moving the sides of the trough in and out
01:51 <@fenn> it's not solid state though, so there are probably all sorts of fluid flow artifacts
01:51 < nmz787> moving the sides makes layering happen?
01:54 <@fenn> um. the layer thickness is simply the volume of amphiphilic material divided by the surface area.. if you move the sides around it changes the surface area
01:54 <@fenn> there are some nonlinearities of course due to the structure of the monolayer
01:57 <@fenn> there's a limit to tunability.. you can only have one layer at a time
01:57 <@fenn> presumably longer chain molecules can be tuned over a wider range.. but good luck finding extremely long chain liquids
01:59 < superkuh> Dissolved ions could affect the birefringence as well depending on the amphiphilic material. If it's a phopholipid then physical phase changes because of monovalent vs divalent cation exchanges in association with the carboxyl groups will cause transient optical scattering and polarization.
02:00 < superkuh> Er, phospholipid.
02:00 < superkuh> I suppose that's tangential to the topic at hand, though.
02:01 < nmz787> interesting tangent though
02:01 <@fenn> yes they mention contamination as a problem
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09:36 <@kanzure> "Adafruit to teach electronics through puppets in new kids’ show Circuit Playground"
09:37 < chris_99> this https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/circuit-playground/id492487671?mt=8 ?
09:37 < chris_99> i don't see no puppets :'(
09:37 <@kanzure> hmm
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10:42 < TheEmpath> hail
10:43 < TheEmpath> a posit
10:43 < TheEmpath> Anyone who invests in manifesting the technology that makes deep space transportation possible runs the risk of it being the last investment they can ever make.
10:45 <@kanzure> TheEmpath: welcome back
10:45 < TheEmpath> hail kanzure
10:46 < TheEmpath> been busy coding something that can analyze the picture of a flowchart on a whiteboard and convert it into a REST platform based on the relationships in the picture.
10:46 < TheEmpath> solves the persistence aspect of rapid prototyping very quickly
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10:51 <@kanzure> why not just take a flowchart as input instead? the vision problem is separate.
10:54 < TheEmpath> exactly
10:54 < TheEmpath> the vision problem is just for advertising purposes anyways
10:54 < TheEmpath> ideally, it iwll take UML, XML representations of flowcharts, or actaul pictures of it
10:55 < TheEmpath> walk into a software company, take a picture, ask for an email, walk out
10:55 < TheEmpath> thats my demonstration
10:55 < TheEmpath> let the results speak for themselves
10:58 <@kanzure> drawing a flowchart takes me longer than writing some sinatra code.
11:01 < TheEmpath> plenty of little guys out there that can't quite get ruby running
11:01 < TheEmpath> for one reason or another
11:02 < TheEmpath> oh
11:02 < TheEmpath> also, anyone familiar with running SILC servers?
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11:04 < brownies> that's your market?
11:04 < brownies> people who routinely architect REST APIs but can't get Ruby running?
11:04 < TheEmpath> its bigger than you think
11:04 < TheEmpath> but thats just one part of it
11:04 < TheEmpath> there are companies that haven't adopted to REST yet and want to quickly get on board
11:05 < TheEmpath> and dont wanna drop 100k a year on a ruby team
11:05 < TheEmpath> i can even analyze their standing database and convert it to REST
11:05 < TheEmpath> automatically
11:05 < TheEmpath> its small
11:06 < TheEmpath> im not solving ontological problems, im just solving one specific one
11:06 < TheEmpath> specific case*
11:15 <@kanzure> 100k/year will get you 1 ruby person.
11:17 <@fenn> how much for a diamond person
11:18 < TheEmpath> http://instantrimshot.com/
11:19  * fenn bows
11:19 <@kanzure> TheEmpath: do you actually have clients that want more uml and less people?
11:19 < TheEmpath> i have 4 beta testers lined up right now
11:20 < TheEmpath> humble beginnings, etc
11:20 < TheEmpath> can this stand in lieu of a proper production server?  probably not
11:20 < TheEmpath> but there is always that one exec who wants things now and will pull assets off of a milestone to prototype an idea
11:21 < TheEmpath> that's my true target audience
11:23 <@fenn> so, uh, get to it
11:23 < TheEmpath> all over it :D
11:26 < barriers> lol
11:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=01b96b26 Bryan Bishop: add links to hackerspaces and biohacking groups
11:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=1edc1dd0 Bryan Bishop: minor wording changes
11:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=a975fe83 Bryan Bishop: even more word choices
11:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=050871b5 Bryan Bishop: add an explicit list of transhuman tech
11:40 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e65ec484 Bryan Bishop: forgot neural implants
11:42 <@fenn> can we get a filename in the commit notice?
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11:42 < jrayhawk> They aren't guaranteed to be one filename.
11:43 <@fenn> can we get a filename in the commit notice?
11:43 < jrayhawk> But I guess that's the common case, so I can probably make that work...
11:44 <@fenn> ideally it would say something like <commit url> foo.txt (and 87 other files) <author> <commit msg>
11:48 < jrayhawk> ugh, bash arrays
11:48 <@kanzure> hooks don't have to be bash scripts
11:49 < jrayhawk> sadly, it is appropriate
11:50 <@fenn> can you just do wc -w
11:50 <@kanzure> don't you mean -l
11:50 <@fenn> i figured it would be on one line
11:51 < jrayhawk> Well, I need to both store at least one line and also count all the lines
11:53 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration today's work
11:54 < yashgaroth> I like it
11:56  * chido likes it too
11:56 < TheEmpath> fucking spiffy
11:56 < TheEmpath> one addendum!
11:56 < yashgaroth> I mean, "Obvious statements" is a hell of a section header, but it does work
11:57 < TheEmpath> i think we all agree that tech is disruptive, not only to the consumer, but to the powers that be.
11:57 < TheEmpath> so.. when we start building all these things… a review on the economic impact has to be considered as well.. and not just a basics "more productivity = more profit"
11:57 < chido> I love how genetic engineering is the first point under transhumanist technilogy, makes me feel relevant :D
11:57 < TheEmpath> how does this affect central banking paradigms?
11:57 < TheEmpath> its worth reviewing, imo
11:58 <@fenn> who gives a shit
11:58 <@fenn> bankers haven't stopped bitcoin have they?
11:59 <@fenn> so what are they going to do about matter compilers or brain scans or whatever
12:00 < TheEmpath> “Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the BAnk.”
12:00 < TheEmpath> just saying, broski
12:00 < TheEmpath> brb lunch
12:01  * fenn chews on a light saber
12:07 < chido> question: why is programming "the best way to experience the most immediate gains in transhumanist undertakings"?
12:08 < jrayhawk> computational power is a brain augmentation, and the better you know how to interface with the computational power, the better the augmentation
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12:15 <@kanzure> TheEmpath: what the hell? why are you bringing banking into this
12:15 <@kanzure> chido: when looking at other transhumanist docs, don't you find it strange that none of them mention programming?
12:15 <@kanzure> how on earth are you going to do any of this without at least some understanding of programming?
12:16 <@kanzure> programming is absurdly easy to get into these days. you don't even have to type crap up from magazines.
12:16 <@fenn> magazines?
12:16 < chido> kanzure: to be honest, I don't really look at other transhumanist docs... I'm too busy teaching myself genetic engineerig :)
12:16 <@kanzure> fenn: apparently, people used to read magazines and then type source code from them
12:16 <@kanzure> and this is how they learned to write code.
12:16 <@kanzure> ... or something.
12:17 < chido> kanzure: but I see your point; there's probably no other skill with so many resources available online like programming
12:17 <@kanzure> also, jrayhawk's answer is more correct in the sense that he explains why it is relevant
12:18 <@fenn> more importantly, the realm of relevant human functions is shrinking as technology progresses. we no longer have "computers" or "millers" or "smiths"
12:18 <@kanzure> holy hell is that where the last name miller comes from
12:18 < chido> I just didn't realize that computational power can be considered a brain augmentation, but it makes sense
12:18 < yashgaroth> but surely I can hire a programmer with the fat stacks of cash that biology pays...oh wait
12:19  * yashgaroth grudgingly opens up the 500 page biopython tutorial
12:20 <@kanzure> ehh bioinformatics is easier to learn if you have an actual project
12:20 < chido> I chose biology over programming as my contribution partly because I got the feeling that there's a lack of people with that kind of skill; most transhumanists I ever ran into happened to be programmers
12:20 < yashgaroth> "most" being "practically all"
12:20 <@kanzure> chido: maybe you should focus on just learning things that you need to know, rather than based on who you meet?
12:21 <@fenn> chido: most of the technologies behind the internet were invented at the  augmentation research center, guess what they were referring to
12:21 <@fenn> or at least the UI parts
12:21 <@kanzure> but yes, most transhumanists are painfully uneducated about biology
12:21 < chido> kanzure: I said partly because :) my main reason was because genetic engineering is fucking awesome
12:21 <@fenn> mouse, wiki, hyperlinks.. what am i forgetting
12:22 <@kanzure> menus :(
12:22 <@kanzure> wait no. menus existed before menus.
12:22 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:22 <@fenn> i thought NLS was chord shortcut based anyway
12:23 < chido> I learn things I want to know, I'm selfish like that
12:24 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i feel like i'm missing a few agency-related things, and that my explanation of recursive self-improvement is lacking. it's not "cool shit just because it's cool" but rather "this shit because any reasonable agent with these motivations would probably come to these conclusions by blah steps"
12:25 <@kanzure> oh god i am breaking my no philosophy rule
12:25 <@kanzure> maybe i should perma-ban myself.
12:25 <@fenn> i didnt detect any philosophy
12:25 <@fenn> game theory doesn't count, it's just math
12:26 <@kanzure> math doesn't count huh. good to know.
12:26 <@fenn> in soviet russia, count doesn't math you, or something
12:27 < yashgaroth> soviet romania if you're involving the count
12:28 <@kanzure> i bet chido's parents were soviets
12:28 <@fenn> hey now
12:28 <@kanzure> that's a good thing, it means we have a primary source right here.
12:28 < jrayhawk> Three! Three permabans for philosophy! Ah ah ah...
12:29 <@kanzure> soviet dracula
12:29 < chido> hmm, I don't know about my father, but I'm pretty sure my mother does know how to speak russian, does that qualify?
12:29 -!- barriers [~syntrope@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:30 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=568eafbe Bryan Bishop: be consistent about character choices
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12:37 <@kanzure> fenn: also, while reading wikipedia today i noticed this terrible truth..
12:37 <@kanzure> "This hypothesis would lay the intellectual groundwork for the British philosopher Max More to begin articulating the principles of transhumanism as a futurist philosophy in 1990, and organizing in California an intelligentsia that has since grown into the worldwide transhumanist movement."
12:38 <@kanzure> intelligentsia: "is a social class of people engaged in complex mental labour aimed at disseminating culture. This therefore might include everyone from artists to school teachers and book readers."
12:38 <@kanzure> wikipedia is often not correct but in this case i think it's probably right that they wanted to be an "intelligentsia"
12:38 -!- qu-bit is now known as genopsych
12:39 <@fenn> yes, uh, good job?
12:39 <@kanzure> no i'm just disappointed that i wasn't aware that they considered themselves an intelligentsia.
12:39 <@fenn> there's a long history of the word with various connotations
12:39 <@kanzure> hell their austin group was called "austin intelligentsia", i thought that was just because they were elitist pricks and i ignored it
12:41 -!- genopsych is now known as qu-bit
12:41 <@fenn> mmm scones
12:42 <@fenn> aw man, no hits for "sconist"
12:44 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/morewinks/commit/?id=177a7967 : Joe Rayhawk: MORE WINKS FOR THE WINK PILE
12:44 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/morewinks/commit/?id=3102d1af i +2: Joe Rayhawk: ;) ;) ;) ;)
12:44 < jrayhawk> hmm
12:44 <@kanzure> wait are you still fighting with bash?
12:45 < jrayhawk> I ADMIT NOTHING
12:46 < jrayhawk> if you create a new head, gnushabot would spit out the entire revision history if it weren't for git being dumb
12:47 < jrayhawk> what's it called when the only reason a bug doesn't manifest is because of another bug
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12:48 -!- barriers [~syntrope@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:48 <@kanzure> serendipity.
12:49 <@fenn> defense in depth
12:50 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has joined ##hplusroadmap
12:51 < jrayhawk> serendipity is a php "weblog manager with extensive theming and plugin support"
12:52 < jrayhawk> serendipitously, you are probably therefor correct
12:52 < jrayhawk> a fractal of bad semantics
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12:56 <@fenn> my brain hurts
12:58 <@kanzure> too much magnesium
12:58 < jrayhawk> hair of the dog!
12:59 <@fenn> good lord it's sunset already?
12:59 <@fenn> what is wrong with this timezone
12:59 -!- qu-bit [~heisenbur@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Changing host]
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13:03 <@fenn> kanzure: it was the "serendipity is a ..."
13:03 -!- erasmus [~esb@unaffiliated/erasmus] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
13:06 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/morewinks/commit/?id=177a7967 i +4: Joe Rayhawk: MORE WINKS FOR THE WINK PILE
13:06 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/morewinks/commit/?id=3102d1af i +1: Joe Rayhawk: ;) ;) ;) ;)
13:10 < jrayhawk> hmm. So what should I do about the 'new head' problem? For an ref update with no previous revision, should I just print *only* the current ref information?
13:10 < jrayhawk> I could use a date heuristic, I guess.
13:10 < jrayhawk> or maybe the reflog would help me...
13:10 -!- barriers [~syntrope@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:11 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: how about limiting it to 5 commits and then the next message being ".. and 400 other commits."
13:12 < jrayhawk> hah, okay
13:15 < jrayhawk> eh, still ugly. hmm. There must be a way.
13:15 <@kanzure> fenn: could you at some point update the laser_cutter.git todo file or make sure it's correct?
13:15 <@kanzure> sigh i mean laser_etcher.git
13:16 <@fenn> um, there isnt much there really
13:16 < TheEmpath> kanzure: humans invent technology.  banks motivate humans to invent technology by controlling the definition of value.  therefore, if technology feeds back or encroaches upon the definition of value, its worth looking into
13:16 < TheEmpath> i don
13:16 < TheEmpath> i don't believe the industrial revolution was a willy nilly free for all.  someone could easily map the outcome of the game the same way we are doing it
13:17 <@fenn> "banks motivate humans" do they
13:17 < TheEmpath> they most certainly do.  its their only job
13:17 < TheEmpath> keep the demand for currency higher than the currency thats in the system.  bamf.  humans are now motivated.
13:17 <@kanzure> the 'industrial revolution' wasn't about technology. most of that technology already existed.
13:17 < TheEmpath> the concepts already existed thanks to Newton
13:18 <@kanzure> no it was not because of newton, wtf..
13:18 < TheEmpath> ...
13:18 <@fenn> it was because of newcomen and the progression of cities
13:18 < TheEmpath> you think principia had no impact on why the british led the charge into the industrial age?
13:18 <@fenn> and maudslay and ...
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13:19 <@kanzure> i seem to recall the arabs "inventing" most of that stuff a few centuries earlier..
13:19 < TheEmpath> and yet, no industrial revolution for them
13:19 <@fenn> the arabs had no engine lathe
13:19 < TheEmpath> figure out that discrepency
13:19 < TheEmpath> the key is the banks
13:19 <@kanzure> why are you focusing on the industrial revolution?
13:20 < TheEmpath> its a great model for disruptive tech
13:20 < TheEmpath> the same we are promoting
13:20 <@kanzure> what
13:20 -!- emancipate [~emancipat@50.14.1.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
13:20 <@fenn> i can see the analogy
13:20 <@fenn> i don't get what banks have to do with anything though
13:20 < TheEmpath> ah
13:21 <@kanzure> TheEmpath: it doesn't matter if it's disruptive or not
13:21 < TheEmpath> the example is there, as kanzure pointed out, the arabs did have many of these concepts and implementations down post-antiquity
13:21 < TheEmpath> distillation, chemistry, algebra, etc
13:21 <@kanzure> i didn't know about arabs not having lathes, that sucks
13:21 <@kanzure> what did they do, chissel their things
13:21 < TheEmpath> iteratively
13:21 <@fenn> casting mostly
13:22 < TheEmpath> they had all the tools to get it there, but they lacked the ability to get those tools to a scale which transforms their economic base
13:22 <@fenn> they had simple lathes, but nothing capable of making a steam cylinder
13:22 < TheEmpath> their guns were impressive by dark ages standards
13:22 <@kanzure> but who cares about their economic base?
13:22 <@kanzure> i mean why are you bringing that up?
13:23 <@fenn> because islam forbids usury
13:23 < TheEmpath> there is a relationship between financial innovation and scientific innovation
13:23 < TheEmpath> BINGO
13:23 < TheEmpath> islam forbids usury
13:23 <@kanzure> i'm not interested in innovation
13:23 < TheEmpath> therefore, no one can say "I gamble that my tech will meet this much profit"
13:23 <@fenn> in case you don't know, the word means earning interest on loans
13:23 <@kanzure> if this stuff was already created i would still want it
13:24 <@fenn> "i'm not interested in innovation"?
13:24 <@kanzure> fenn: i don't care if it's innovation or not
13:24 <@kanzure> i asked why she was bringing it up, and she said "there is a relationship between financial innovation and scientific innovation" so i commented about innovation
13:26 <@kanzure> TheEmpath: there are a thousand different ways to organize a society or economy and we have barely experimented with the most of them
13:27 <@kanzure> TheEmpath: i'm not sure i'm motivated by disruption for the sake of disruption
13:27 <@fenn> don't you want to invest in my genetically re-engineered smallpox startup?
13:29 <@kanzure> juri_: ah i didn't know that makibox was nils hitze. i know nils.
13:29 < TheEmpath> sorry phone call
13:29 < TheEmpath> kanzure: yes, these are many ways to organize human potential to achieve desired ends
13:30 < TheEmpath> but that assumes that the current organization scheme lies down and simply takes it
13:30 <@kanzure> so, in the context of the link that we were discussing, there was nothing on that page about 'the current organization scheme' for a reason
13:30 < TheEmpath> sorry, looking for the link
13:31 < TheEmpath> oh, yes
13:31 < TheEmpath> yes, that lack of recognizing that scheme is, of course, what i am discussing
13:31 <@kanzure> if you're not talking about that, then that would explain why talking with you is so hard for me
13:31 <@kanzure> ah okay good
13:31 < TheEmpath> ya
13:31 < TheEmpath> i dunno how to go about disucssing that topic communally, to be honest
13:32 <@kanzure> the document doesn't claim to address 'ways to organize human potential'
13:32 <@kanzure> so i don't see how that is relevant... see?
13:32 < TheEmpath> ah
13:32 < TheEmpath> right
13:32 < TheEmpath> the gaps are filled in my mind
13:32 < TheEmpath> i just assume they are filled elsewhere
13:32 < TheEmpath> so...
13:32 < TheEmpath> we are in the business of inventing new toys that do amazing things
13:33 < TheEmpath> but what made us invent the new toys?
13:33 <@kanzure> my brain.
13:33 < TheEmpath> thats a big big part of it
13:33 < TheEmpath> but it isn't the only factor
13:34 <@fenn> who is "we" referring to?
13:34 < TheEmpath> by we, i mean the people who recognize the impact these new technologies will have.  which would be us, the h+ community
13:34 < TheEmpath> or as per this IRC channel lol
13:35 < TheEmpath> new toys means new power
13:35 <@fenn> okay. you'd be surprised how often pronoun abuse leads to confusion
13:35 < TheEmpath> new ways to bend the universe to our will
13:35 < TheEmpath> but not just the will of the h+ community
13:35 < TheEmpath> if you do not understand the technology, what is more efficient?  learning the tech or controlling the technician?
13:35 < TheEmpath> efficiency being measured as utilizing the new tech to bend the universe to your will
13:36 < TheEmpath> some people are inclined to learn tech quickly.. im sure many of us in this channel fall intro that category
13:36 < TheEmpath> but there is another skill set worth observing
13:36 < TheEmpath> and that is manipulating human nature
13:36 -!- emancipate [~emancipat@50.14.1.36] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:36 <@fenn> um, taking drugs that enable you to learn faster?
13:37 <@fenn> (that's what i call manipulating human nature)
13:37 < TheEmpath> in the end, the human brain is only possible of the human body is taken care of
13:37 <@fenn> i assume you mean "business as usual"
13:37 < TheEmpath> right
13:37 < TheEmpath> business as usual
13:37 <@fenn> big fucking deal
13:37 < TheEmpath> it certainly is
13:37 <@fenn> how is that even anything? why call yourself a transhumanist if it's just maximize ROI
13:38 < TheEmpath> it's not me thinking this way natively
13:38 < TheEmpath> its me recognizing that people do look at it this way
13:38 < TheEmpath> and if you just reject the premise, you are missing on a very important part of the transition
13:38 <@kanzure> transition...?
13:38 < TheEmpath> aye… moving from post-indsutrial/pre-information to a GRAIN methodology isn't an overnight process
13:39 < TheEmpath> there is a time delay
13:39 <@fenn> there are many ways to take money from people that don't result in any increase in potential..
13:39 < TheEmpath> im not talking about money.  im talking about power
13:39 < TheEmpath> those that control the current scheme will look to these techs as ways to maximize their power
13:39 <@fenn> fine. there are many ways to take power from people that don't result in any increase in potential.
13:40 < TheEmpath> be it an army of genetic misfits or good-enough drones are going to make certain people powerful is also not what im talking about
13:40 <@fenn> what's "GRAIN methodology"?
13:40 < TheEmpath> Genetics/Robotics/Artifical Intelligence/Nanotech
13:41 <@fenn> oh. i hate acronyms like that
13:41 < TheEmpath> lol
13:41 < TheEmpath> yeah, it kinda does lump them all together in a very ugly way
13:41 <@fenn> BIO NANO INFO COGNO SCIENCE CONVERGENCE
13:42 < TheEmpath> what im saying is the people who are going to pay for these toys initially are the big boys of hte current scheme
13:42 <@kanzure> so?
13:42 < TheEmpath> and they are going to want these toys to prolong their current hold
13:43 <@kanzure> i don't follow you. why not do it first with your own money instead?
13:43 < TheEmpath> sure, the DIY aspect is there
13:43 < TheEmpath> until an army of people take your discovery and apply it to their power paradigm
13:43 < TheEmpath> to preserve their influence
13:43 < TheEmpath> im not saying dont do anything
13:43 <@kanzure> i just don't care about their influence
13:43 <@kanzure> why should i
13:44 <@kanzure> it would be nice if they assisted me but it's not the end of the world if they don't
13:45 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-179-143.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:46 < TheEmpath> thats a good question
13:46 < TheEmpath> why should anyone care about a collection of people whose sole job on this planet is to manipulate human behavior towards their desired goals
13:46 -!- joshcryer [g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has joined ##hplusroadmap
13:46 < TheEmpath> if they aren't hurting anyone, meh
13:46 < TheEmpath> sure
13:47 <@kanzure> okay, but what does that have to do with /declaration
13:47 < TheEmpath> because wild growth gets tamed
13:47 < TheEmpath> the technology being discussed will grow emensely
13:47 < TheEmpath> and have all of the outcomes we are seeing
13:48 < TheEmpath> but its not just us seeing it
13:48 < TheEmpath> it will be other perspectives that want to shape that outcome
13:48 < TheEmpath> potentially away from what we envision
13:49 < TheEmpath> being cognizant of those other perspectives will allow us to ensure that our outcomes are not hijacked
13:49 <@kanzure> it appears that you're the one doing the hijacking at the moment
13:49 <@kanzure> i'm just trying to understand.
13:50 < TheEmpath> im pointing out obvious outcomes of technology.
13:50 < TheEmpath> we were told the internet was to liberate us, but it has been twisted to be a panopticon
13:50 < TheEmpath> the industrial age was supposed to free us from the hardship of farm work, but instead, we donned the chains of wage slavery
13:50 <@kanzure> um
13:51 <@kanzure> that's a lot of nice words, but maybe you just suck at deploying networks and maybe you suck at automating farm work
13:51 < TheEmpath> or maybe i dont suck at saving time and its cheaper to hire mexicans than invent drones
13:51 <@kanzure> huh?
13:52 <@fenn> or maybe political systems that perpetuate pointless competition reduce overall efficency
13:52 < TheEmpath> there are ramifications to this technology, and i dont mean ethical ones
13:53 < TheEmpath> being aware of what the next seven steps are can help you in your first few steps
13:54 < TheEmpath> but if you truly believe that the power of this tech will steamroll through the current power paradigm
13:54 < TheEmpath> well, you are right
13:54 < TheEmpath> many people will be bankrupted and old empires will fall
13:54 < TheEmpath> but it will be the biggest bull on the scene, and it will create the incentive to master the growth of that tech
13:55 < TheEmpath> what im suggesting is to discuss the ways in which those who will react that way can operate
13:55 <@kanzure> you sound more interested in global governance schemes or something.. nobody has claimed that transhuman tech is an answer to governance or whatever.
13:55 < TheEmpath> and not let them lead the discussion
13:55 <@kanzure> maybe you've been fooled by someone
13:55 < TheEmpath> just follow things to their natural conclusions
13:55 < TheEmpath> you invent farming drones, and you destroy Dole
13:55 < TheEmpath> but all of their competition will want a piece of that action
13:56 < TheEmpath> and they'll come to you
13:56 < TheEmpath> not to mention Dole will still be around, probably wanting some degree of revenge
13:56 < TheEmpath> so who controls the path of the development of that tech at that time?
13:56 < TheEmpath> you?  the inventor?
13:56 < TheEmpath> no
13:56 < TheEmpath> the market does
13:57 < delinquentme> we're automating congress?
13:57 < TheEmpath> lol
13:57 < delinquentme> enstating proxy voters?
13:57 < TheEmpath> at that point, you have now been thrusted into the game of power where you will either maintain your position or have people who emulate your tactics and potentially supercede you
13:57 < TheEmpath> now that might be fine
13:57 <@kanzure> i don't even know how to respond to you, you're making up stuff left and right
13:57 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@ip-64-134-96-12.public.wayport.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:57 < TheEmpath> im creating a thought experiment on how technology takes out the powerful
13:57 < eudoxia> TheEmpath can you just write that manifesto up somewhere else and link it to us
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13:58 < TheEmpath> which is an inevitable outcome to this endevour
13:58 < TheEmpath> eudoxia: sure
13:59 <@fenn> why can't dole just invent the drones themselves in the first place?
14:00 < TheEmpath> the same way Warner Music didn't invent iTunes
14:00 < TheEmpath> dudes get entrenched, full of hubris, whatever
14:00 < TheEmpath> humans are stupid
14:00 <@kanzure> i think eudoxia's idea is best
14:01 < TheEmpath> aye
14:01 < TheEmpath> i'll submit it for review
14:01 < TheEmpath> tear it apart at will :D
14:01 < delinquentme> what was the idear?
14:01 <@kanzure> i have no clue
14:01  * fenn sleeps
14:01 < TheEmpath> to discuss the economic ramifications and to discover the power interests of these h+ techs so to be aware of them
14:02 <@kanzure> maybe you would prefer to go somewhere else to do that
14:02 <@kanzure> thanks
14:02 < TheEmpath> you stand on the cusp of the most destabilizing transition in human history and you're not even remotely interested in how it's going to turn out?
14:02 < TheEmpath> you must be a technician
14:03 <@kanzure> yep
14:03 < TheEmpath> those who don't do power are done by power
14:03 < TheEmpath> none the less, i'll submit
14:04 <@kanzure> i think you're making things up. who is it that isn't doing power?
14:04 <@kanzure> what does "doing power" even fucking mean
14:05 < TheEmpath> it means being cognizant that there are powerful collections of people out there who will do -whatever- it takes to maintain their position
14:05 < TheEmpath> here's a good example
14:05 < TheEmpath> lets say by some twist of innovation, humans can colonize mars
14:05 <@kanzure> okay.....  but i don't know why you care about their position?
14:05 < TheEmpath> ah
14:05 < TheEmpath> thats a good observation
14:05 < TheEmpath> the conclusion of this thought experiment will explain it
14:05 <@kanzure> i doubt it
14:05 <@kanzure> i am not interested in this discussion
14:06 < TheEmpath> humans are on mars and they go "fuck earth, bro!"
14:06 < TheEmpath> and they rebel
14:06 < TheEmpath> and now they are the Martian PEople's Front
14:06 < TheEmpath> what does Earth do?
14:06 < eudoxia> well invade obviously
14:06 < TheEmpath> invade?
14:06 < eudoxia> otherwise how is the novel going to get going?
14:06 < TheEmpath> how about nuke them from orbit
14:06 < TheEmpath> and eliminate them entirely
14:06 < TheEmpath> and push out the next wave of poor people to be the next colonists
14:07 <@kanzure> truly you are a military master
14:07 < eudoxia> you'd think the people on mars would have some basic defenses against something slow like a nuke
14:07 <@kanzure> nah only earth can have that
14:07 < eudoxia> i'm assuming it's not a _relativistic_ nuke, but that would be just silly wouldn't it?
14:07 < TheEmpath> i think that their Earth masters would never allow it
14:07 < TheEmpath> because thats what power is about
14:07 <@kanzure> earth.. masters..
14:08 <@fenn> spacefaring civilization with relativistic weapons? never
14:08 < eudoxia> what are their earth masters going to do about that'
14:08 < delinquentme> so how do I approach something like designing codified protocols for something like ... dropping and then adding new pipettor tips?
14:08 < TheEmpath> you think Earth will let people just go on Mars free market?
14:08 < eudoxia> i mean, they can build some kind of orbiting laser platform thing and some Rods from God, and launch them when they decide they are independent
14:08 < TheEmpath> with no way to reign them in in case they rebel?
14:08 < eudoxia> absolutely not
14:08 <@kanzure> delinquentme: you probably want to drop them into the garbage
14:08 < TheEmpath> exactly
14:08 < TheEmpath> they won't
14:09 < TheEmpath> the technology, then, doesn't liberate mankind
14:09 < TheEmpath> it just extends the chains of slavery
14:09 < eudoxia> technology can't do that alone
14:09 < delinquentme> the pivotal question might be " will I ever want to NOT have tips present " ... if the answer is no .. then there should simply be a "swap tip" operation versus two operations: " add tip " and "remove tip"
14:09 < eudoxia> it needs people
14:09 < TheEmpath> it needs rutheless people wielding the technology
14:09 < eudoxia> until then, it is ethically neutral
14:09 <@kanzure> delinquentme: you don't store tips for later
14:09 < delinquentme> kanzure, I'm wondering if theres some kind of related operation in programming
14:10 <@kanzure> delinquentme: malloc?
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14:10 < delinquentme> kanzure, right .. I just mean should I bundle the remove and new tips into a single operation
14:10 < delinquentme> OMG!
14:10 < TheEmpath> ethics are for… i dunno who ethics are for
14:10 < delinquentme> got it :D
14:10 <@kanzure> delinquentme: probably not, it would be better for testing to have separate operations
14:11 < delinquentme> make two methods with a 3rd method which functions as a swap tips operation .. and calls the previously mentioned methods
14:11 < delinquentme> agreed kanzure ?
14:11 < TheEmpath> you invest in these massive technological platforms that allow for spacefaring, and you are going to want a return on your time
14:11 < delinquentme> so an add tip, remove tip .. and swap tip  which calls remove and add
14:11 <@fenn> why would anyone live on mars once they got out of the gravity well
14:11 <@fenn> that's just dumb
14:12 <@kanzure> fenn: people who are studying mars would probably want to live on mars
14:12 < TheEmpath> the same reason people would flee britian and live in a foreign land with angry natives and harsh weather
14:12 <@kanzure> but i can't imagine that would be many people
14:12 < TheEmpath> because home sucks
14:14 <@kanzure> eudoxia: see anything worth editing? http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
14:14 < eudoxia> kanzure i saw that earlier, let me read it
14:16 <@fenn> http://www.google.com/search?q=bernal%20sphere&tbm=isch
14:18 <@fenn> i think you actually need counter rotating pairs to fix the coriolis force
14:19 < eudoxia> so, bernal spheres
14:19 < eudoxia> anything above the lowest latitudes would basically just be windows, right?
14:20 <@fenn> hm? you don't need a particularly large surface area for optics
14:20 < eudoxia> a diamondoid sphere with a thin strip in normal gravity area
14:20 < eudoxia> i mean because of the rotation near the poles
14:20 <@fenn> er, the other coriolis force, from going around the sun. precession of the entire colony
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14:22 <@fenn> maybe that's the wrong word..
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14:23 < eudoxia> i didn't know that was a thing
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14:24 < eudoxia> oh no kanzure your declaration mentions max more
14:24 < eudoxia> i thought the plan was to pretend extropianism never existed
14:26 < TheEmpath> thats the basis of my critique, btw
14:26 < TheEmpath> max more
14:26 < eudoxia> that he's a bad philosopher?
14:26 < TheEmpath> he uses "progress" as a justification eight times, and fails to explore what progress actually is
14:27 < eudoxia> you know, i remember an old issue of cryonics magazine where they had merkle, more and vita-more doing this panel thing
14:27 < eudoxia> jesus christ what a fucking circlejerk
14:27 < TheEmpath> you show me something that is progressive, and i'll show you a thermodynamic system that hasn't balanced yet
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14:36 <@kanzure> no, i don't think he uses "progress" or "a thermodynamic system that hasn't balanced yet" as a justification for agency
14:37 <@kanzure> eudoxia: i think the proactionary principle is separate from extropianism, yes?
14:37 < eudoxia> well i suppose you could separate them
14:37 < eudoxia> but you should say the original PP paper appeared out of the aether
14:38 <@kanzure> instead of what?
14:38 <@kanzure> i mean what are you objecting to specifically, the read more link?
14:38 < TheEmpath> From Max More: The Proactionary Principle stands for the proactive pursuit of progress.
14:38 < eudoxia> well, I guess that's one thing. it's just that any link to extropians might make it look like we approve of any of it
14:39 < eudoxia> and it sucks
14:39 <@kanzure> the precautionary principle sucks even more
14:39 < eudoxia> of course
14:39 < TheEmpath> i dont think its an either/or scenario
14:39 < TheEmpath> thats the basis of what im going to submit
14:40 <@kanzure> eudoxia: do you think this should be removed completely, or just the link?
14:40 < eudoxia> just the link
14:40 <@kanzure> ah okay.
14:40 <@kanzure> yeah he doesn't argue it very well does he
14:41 <@kanzure> i think his biggest argument for it is simply "the precautionary prinicple doesn't take into account possible upsides", which is a reasonable thing to point out.
14:41 < TheEmpath> right, and in that, he's correct
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14:41 < TheEmpath> and taking the dialectic position is a good start
14:41 < TheEmpath> but it won't protect you in all cases
14:42 <@kanzure> protect you from what ?
14:42 < TheEmpath> challenges to your motiviation which will become PR coups later on
14:42 <@kanzure> you lost me already
14:43 <@kanzure> it's not about protecting against PR mishaps
14:43 < TheEmpath> i'd say the Nazi's did a hell of a horrible PR stunt to transhumanism
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14:44 < TheEmpath> you couldn't even mention the words "genetics" in America between 1946 and 1980
14:44 <@kanzure> sigh again what does this have to do with anything
14:44 <@kanzure> the proactionary principle isn't a principle of PR
14:44 < eudoxia> yeah seriously
14:44 < eudoxia> you shouldn't even bring it up
14:44 <@kanzure> eudoxia: maybe i'm being trolled
14:45 <@kanzure> eudoxia: it's so hard to tell these days
14:45 < eudoxia> we have enough with the "libertarian" fascist eugenicists
14:45 < eudoxia> a a den otter
14:45 < TheEmpath> and how are you countering them?
14:45 < eudoxia> kanzure: sometimes i get the same feeling
14:45 <@kanzure> eudoxia: the problem is that i would feel bad if i kick out TheEmpath
14:45 < TheEmpath> what the hell
14:46 < eudoxia> oh he's cool
14:47 < TheEmpath> no matter what your technical solution is, no matter how you manifest the technology, you will still hit the same problems
14:47 < TheEmpath> how are you going to deal with power?
14:47 < TheEmpath> its a discussion worth having
14:47 <@kanzure> no it's not
14:48 < TheEmpath> head in sand is not acceptable
14:48 <@kanzure> nothing about sand here dude
14:48 < eudoxia> well
14:48 < eudoxia> democratic transhumanists believe we can deal with power by making governments transparent and wholly democratic
14:48 <@kanzure> eudoxia is channeling james hughes i think
14:49 < eudoxia> with a touch of carrico
14:49 < TheEmpath> thats an industrial age concept, imo
14:49 <@kanzure> eudoxia: i'm disappointed in you. you're supposed to hate hughes/carrico and avoid them i thought.
14:50 <@kanzure> maybe that was epitron and not you.
14:50 < eudoxia> meh, i think it's healthy to interact with your diametral opposites, then again the guy does have a PhD in bullshitting and i'm easily influentiable
14:50 < TheEmpath> yeah, i dunno about democracy and all that jazz
14:50 < eudoxia> TheEmpath: well then there are anarcho-transhumanists who want to do away with power, but that's just William Gillis and... nope, that's it
14:50 < TheEmpath> lol
14:50 < eudoxia> it's rather sad
14:50 < TheEmpath> the lack of support or the belief?
14:51 < eudoxia> that it really is just william gillis
14:51 < TheEmpath> that does sound sad
14:51 < eudoxia> now, i'm not delusional enough to go the way of hughes, but i'm not doom paul enough to go the way gillis
14:52 < TheEmpath> look, im not about applying breaks because i imagine the worse scenarios
14:52 < TheEmpath> it may seem that way but thats not correct
14:52 < TheEmpath> if it required the loss of 99% of the human population to achieve transhumanist goals, i'd probably be on board
14:52 < eudoxia> :I
14:52 < TheEmpath> in fact, there is only one aspect of human nature i really only care about it… the rest is mutable
14:52 < TheEmpath> the POINT is that people like me DO exist
14:52 < TheEmpath> thats the point
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14:53 < TheEmpath> and im just a very, very, very mild version of it
14:53 <@kanzure> i'm sorry, that fact isn't surprising or interesting
14:53 < eudoxia> yeah
14:54 < TheEmpath> are you going to cater to these people, destroy them, or trick them?
14:54 <@kanzure> we're going to kickban you
14:54 < TheEmpath> sigh
14:54 < TheEmpath> then power has beaten your cause
14:54 <@kanzure> i think you just like typing things
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14:57 < TheEmpath> i think you're refusal to address the issue or power is because you harbor desires for it
14:57 < TheEmpath> or = of
14:57 <@kanzure> i think it's because you just don't make any sense
14:58 < TheEmpath> i'm very sure other observers understand what I'm saying
14:58 < delinquentme> TheEmpath, you dont want power?
14:58 < delinquentme> you're full of shit.
14:58 < TheEmpath> do I want power?
14:58 < TheEmpath> power to do WHAT?
14:58 < delinquentme> you may not want to NOT have power ... but no one chooses to have no power
14:58 < delinquentme> TheEmpath, power to handle whatever you think you're capable of maybe .. but thats just details
14:59 < delinquentme> to say one doesn't want power is dumb
15:00 < TheEmpath> Do you truly believe i am incapable of getting power at any time on my own terms whenever i want as of this moment?
15:00 < TheEmpath> as if something is stopping me?
15:00 < jrayhawk> pasky: I need some git help. http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/src/post-receive-announcebot.sh right now the diyhpl.us repos' post-receive scripts construct a list of commit messages from the 'oldrev newrev ref' inputs they get. It's undesirable for something like 'git push origin master:newbranch' to replay the entire history; is there some magic git way of acting only on *new* commit objects? Like, an object-upload hook ...
15:00 < jrayhawk> ... equivalent? Otherwise I'm left with filesystem datestring heuristics (unreliable due to packing) or storing my own object lists and using sort -u and comm to work out what's new, which seems inefficient.
15:01 <@kanzure> TheEmpath: hey can you take this to another channel with delinquentme? thanks.
15:01 <@kanzure> maybe #lesswrong
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15:09 < jrayhawk> okay so what i should do is reverse the ref update, git fsck --unreachable or dangling or something, redo the ref update, git gc, then kick myself in the head to keep from thinking too hard about what it is i just did
15:09 < jrayhawk> it's a flawless plan
15:10 < delinquentme> kanzure, yeah he sounds like a jerkoff
15:11 <@kanzure> haha does --unreachable do what i think it does
15:11 <@kanzure> that's a silly way to go about it
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15:12 < jrayhawk> of course, it's unsafe for me to do a manual ref update, so I'll need to be recusion-safe and oh golly am i going to need a lot of head kicking
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15:13 < pasky> jrayhawk: something awfully ugly tends to be used
15:13 < pasky>         other_branches=$(git for-each-ref --format='%(refname)' refs/heads/ |
15:13 < pasky>                 git rev-list --pretty --stdin $revspec
15:13 < pasky>             grep -F -v $refname)
15:14 < pasky>         git rev-parse --not $other_branches |
15:14 < pasky> like this in post-receive-email contrib hook
15:14 < pasky> revspec is                 revspec=$oldrev..$newrev
15:14 < pasky> (or just $newrev)
15:17 < jrayhawk> ah, okay, that makes sense
15:18 < jrayhawk> I hadn't realized it would be quite that practical with git porcelain to reconstruct trees like that. Badass.
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15:48 < TheEmpath> qwatap
15:48 < delinquentme> so what is the value added in software interfaces with arduinos and raspberry pis
15:49 < delinquentme> also Prions
15:49 < delinquentme> self-replicating proteins
15:49 < delinquentme> @_@
15:50 < TheEmpath> software interfaces as in users interacting with processes running on the computers?
15:52 < delinquentme> something to facilitate simple *codified* protocols into physical movements on machines
15:53 < TheEmpath> modularity comes to mind.
15:55 < TheEmpath> esp. when having coordinated physical movements on a single or multiple machines
15:56 < TheEmpath> but thats rather obvious
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15:59 < delinquentme> TheEmpath, that is a concern :D
15:59 < delinquentme> I'm really interested in ways that I can add additional components : steppers , encoders and the like
16:00 < delinquentme> without having to redesign a circuit board
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16:00 < delinquentme> maybe the answer is just stacking additional protoshields and something with I2c connections
16:00 < delinquentme> IDK
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16:12 < TheEmpath> http://elinux.org/RPi_Expansion_Boards
16:13 < TheEmpath> might have something off the shelf for your needs?
16:14 < TheEmpath> lego that bitch together
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18:59 <@kanzure> superman can type 5000 wpm :(
18:59 <@kanzure> i'm boned
19:05 <@kanzure> is there such a thing as a 'retry uphill' algorithm?
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19:17 < strangewarp> ah yes, the Sisyphus algorithm
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19:21 <@kanzure> "SISYPHUS: algorithms for accelerating dynamics through a mixed Monte. Carlo-molecular dynamics approach" ?
19:33 < strangewarp> I was making a mthology joke, apologies...
19:33 < strangewarp> mythology*
19:40  * joshcryer installs humor chip in kanzure
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21:51 < delinquentme> does anyone get themselves tested on a regular basis for aging related biomarkers?
21:51 < delinquentme> I'm guessing theres a ton of stuff which can be tested like transcendent man has
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22:21 <@kanzure> arrrghh s3 :(
22:21 <@kanzure> <RoutingRules> <RoutingRule> <Condition> <HttpErrorCodeReturnedEquals>500</HttpErrorCodeReturnedEquals> </Condition> <Redirect> <HttpRedirectCode>301</HttpRedirectCode> </Redirect> </RoutingRule> </RoutingRules>
22:24 <@kanzure> win 4
22:24 <@kanzure> dfjaklsd;faj
22:27 <@kanzure> saurik: does that solve your problem with the http 50x series errors?
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22:46 < delinquentme> should it worry me that people are asking me about things that I've actually got an educated response to?
22:47 < delinquentme> like in the way that it means I'm developing a deep knowledge in something ... and well deep knowledge in java means you're a slow developer :D?
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23:37 < saurik> kanzure: so the idea is "if I get a 500 error from the underlying S3 data store, and taht would have been returned to the user, instead give them a 301 location to the same url and hope they retry"? I feel like that would generate a "redirect loop" error, especially given the 301 instead of 302
23:39 < saurik> ah, I see that was a response from someone on HN
23:40 < saurik> that would not have fixed the problem I was running into, as I was pretty much getting a 500 error from the attempt to 301 itself (which was proably specified by an automatically-generated bucket routing policy)
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 29 00:00:09 2012