--- Log opened Wed Jan 09 00:00:25 2013
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01:55 < wrldpc> so according to Jason Pontin Microsoft's Windows 8 and Surface are disruptive.
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02:00 < archels> disruptive for office productivity, right
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04:19 < archels> the square root of a dot product is yielding negative values. ugh
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09:50 <@kanzure> you guys are busy being boring
09:51 < chido> sorry
09:52 < juri_> gomen.
09:54 <@kanzure> apology accepted, witty retort not found
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10:42 < archels> UNC-CHAPEL HILL (US) — Snippets of information contained in dark matter, or “junk DNA,” can alter the way a gene gets put together, according to new research.
10:42 < archels> dark matter? seriously?
10:47 <@kanzure> we've run out of words, you see
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11:37 < juri_> we've run out of words that simpletons 'understand'.
11:37 < juri_> try telling the average person on the street that dark matter and dark energy have nothing to do with each other. watch dummy mode turn on.
11:43 < strangewarp> But.. those are both made by Doepfer, and designed to be used with one another
11:43 < strangewarp> o:)
11:47 <@kanzure> juri_: if you believe in simpletons, please don't reveal it in here
11:47 <@kanzure> or something
11:48 < nmz787> oh they exist
11:48 <@kanzure> i guess you also believe in idiots and geniuses
11:51 < erasmus> I believe in fairies and hobbits.
11:52 < strangewarp> I believe in the existence of a physical Kurzweil
11:54 < chido> I believe in oxidative phosphorylation
11:55 < erasmus> I believe true love waits.
11:56 < jrayhawk> I want to believe.
11:57 < erasmus> I believe my attic is haunted.
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12:23 < juri_> kanzure: i believe there are people seeking knowlege, and those who don't seek it.
12:24 < juri_> i also believe in the lack of distribution of knowledge, and that its a shame.
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13:21 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10506576
13:21 < paperbot> error: didn't find any pdfs on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10506576
13:21 <@kanzure> well i guess that's true
13:29 < joehot> i believe there are people who believe in idiots and geniuses
13:30 < ThomasEgi> that'd be.. other idiots ?
13:32 < joehot> it's an important distinction
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13:55 <@kanzure> http://thingtracker.net/ yawn, yet another thing without a data format
13:55 <@kanzure> eh it's just json http://thingtracker.net/specification.html
13:55 <@kanzure> this says nothing about the actual cad formats
13:56 <@kanzure> and the fucker uses whoisguard
13:56 <@kanzure> damnit
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14:33 < nmz787> what is whoisguard?
14:34 <@kanzure> an evil thing that fucks up whois
14:34 <@kanzure> try this: whois heybryan.org
14:34 <@kanzure> now try: whois thingtracker.net
14:35 < nmz787> oh, i thought that is just called 'private registration'
14:35 < nmz787> that's what godaddy calls it i think
14:36 <@kanzure> godaddy is also evil. just say nodaddy.
14:37 <@kanzure> i suggest something like gandi instead
14:42 <@kanzure> wow my yahoo account just got hax0red
14:42 <@kanzure> which is weird because the email account was disabled
14:44 <@kanzure> serbia
14:45 <@kanzure> haha but they tell me "we detected a suspicious login from TX, US" but not serbia.. great.
14:45 < brownies> how did they hack your yahoo account o.O ?
14:46 <@kanzure> yahoo has been having some issues all week. last friday they had a major xss exploit. but a few months ago they had a huge leak.
14:46 < brownies> yeah, but iirc you had to actually log in and click on shady-looking things to fall prey to the recent exploit
14:47 <@kanzure> i got notified because of the spam sent from my yahoo mail account (they didn't notice that my email address was in my own address book)
14:47 <@kanzure> i stopped using yahoo mail years ago when they deleted my 2001-2006 email "due to your inactivity"
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14:50 < brownies> how thoughtful of them.
14:52 <@kanzure> yeah isn't that nice?
14:52 <@kanzure> what's better is that they event sent me a notice that they had deleted things
14:52 <@kanzure> but they didn't send me a warning email
14:56 <@kanzure> http://www.readcube.com/ seems to be an even more awful deepdyve.com competitor
14:57 <@kanzure> so what happened to the idea of doing a company that subscribes to publishers, and just pools money from monthly subscription fees?
14:58 <@kanzure> from its users?
14:59 <@kanzure> say you do $20/user-mo over 100k users ($2M/mo).. i bet the publishers would look at your cost per user and try to charge you as much as possible.
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15:09 < joehot> sounds like a terrible idea
15:10 < joehot> anything they throw at you is multiplied by your userbase and frankly if people want subscriptions to stuff they're going to trust the real deal over a middleman
15:10 < joehot> unless you find a way to offer it for cheaper (which will send dozens of lawsuits your way) nobody's going to come
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15:12 <@kanzure> "For example, the University of California pays Elsevier $8.2 million each year. They sell us 34% of all the journals we get, and 27% of all the electronic content."
15:12 <@kanzure> "The next biggest publishing company is Wiley-Blackwell — we pay them $5 million each year. The third is Springer — we pay them $3 million each year."
15:13 <@kanzure> joehot: the real deal costs millions of dollars
15:13 <@kanzure> joehot: you can't afford that
15:13 < joehot> i misunderstood your premise
15:14 <@kanzure> "On the other hand, the average cost per use was $0.43 for American Chemical Society journals, $1.30 for Elsevier and $2.70 for Springer–Kluwer."
15:14 < joehot> how much can they charge you? is there something keeping them from just charging $1 more than your revenue
15:15 < ParahSailin> does python have a function of type [(k,v)] -> Dict k v
15:15 <@kanzure> yes, it's called dict()
15:15 <@kanzure> dict([(k, v)])
15:16 < ParahSailin> ah, didnt realize dict() was weird and polymorphic like that
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15:20 < ParahSailin> does python have a concat function of type [[a]] -> [a]?
15:21 <@kanzure> that sounds more like a flatten, and no i don't know of one in the stdlib
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15:22 <@kanzure> pfft "Steve Wozniak Joins DeepDyve Advisory Board"
15:32 <@kanzure> "Today, scholarly publisher sites receive over 2 billion visits per year from users who are unaffiliated with an institution yet convert less than 0.2% into a purchase or a subscription."
15:44 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: please insert your complaints about http://thingtracker.net/
15:46 < nmz787> kanzure how do i meet more people like us in portland?
15:46 < jrayhawk> i like these distributed search/aggregation pub/sub things in principle, but they never seem to gain much traction :(
15:46 < nmz787> i posted a Washington County Science Club listing in Events on craigslist
15:46 < jrayhawk> there's hackerspaces, student groups, and also #pdxtech
15:46 <@kanzure> nmz787: go meet lichen and mokbortolan and the others
15:46 < nmz787> almost posted same to meetup, but then they wanted $$$
15:46 <@kanzure> yes, meetup is evil
15:47 <@kanzure> also bioguy
15:47 < nmz787> i haven't seen any of them around here in a while
15:47 <@kanzure> and Emil Mcdowell <sir.galimore@gmail.com>
15:47 <@kanzure> Justin Dormandy <justin.dormandy@gmail.com>
15:48 <@kanzure> Saffron Thomason
15:48 < nmz787> who are these people and what do they do?
15:49 <@kanzure> mokbor <moktarino@gmail.com>
15:49 <@kanzure> mostly diybio/transhumanism people
15:50 <@kanzure> this guy i met through singularity university Ron Sikes <pdxsikes@gmail.com> but i'm not sure his exact specialty
15:50 <@kanzure> and Nathan DiNiro <unclenate@gmail.com> wanted to do a biocurious thing in portland
15:50 <@kanzure> and gabriel paparella <contact@gabrielpaparella.com> is into life extension and hackerspaces
15:51 <@kanzure> oops gabriel moved to austin, my bad
15:52 < nmz787> ok
15:53 < nmz787> btw kanzure back in july you mentioned thinking you were banned from the diybio-seattle mailing list, but I think that may have just been closed down
15:53 < nmz787> should I address all these people as 'You all know kanzure'
15:53 < nmz787> ??
15:54 <@kanzure> they might possibly know me as bryan bishop
15:54 <@kanzure> and they might possibly not know me at all because of my creepy stalking skills
15:54 < nmz787> who the hell is that?
15:54 <@kanzure> some jerk
15:54 < nmz787> and you impersonate him?
15:54 < Mariu> lol
15:54 < nmz787> :D
15:54 < nmz787> quick kanzure do your bryan bishop impersonation
15:55 <@kanzure> type type type
15:57 < nmz787> so there's like one main road that travels east west, just north of the himalayas, in Tibet... how do I get google street view to hire me to collect that data
16:02 < nmz787> hmm, apparently you can get a chinese driver's license, but it's a real PITA or impossible to get a permit to drive in Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR)
16:03 < nmz787> unless you're with a 'tour' that's guided (i.e. there's an itinerary)
16:04 <@kanzure> going somewhere?
16:13 < nmz787> i've been studying a bunch of geography the last week or so
16:13 < nmz787> hiking around mt kailash (52km) in a day is said to wash away the sins of one's life
16:14 < nmz787> or maybe that's after 100 times around
16:14 < nmz787> but kailash is in TAR
16:14 < nmz787> and the area around it looks absolutely inhospitable
16:14 <@kanzure> and if you walk counter-clockwise do you get evil superpowers?
16:14 < brownies> couldn't you just hang out in a hot tub or something? that should wash away most of your sins
16:15 < nmz787> kanzure: checking
16:16 < nmz787> "Sacred to Indian Hindus and Tibetans, one is considered to gain much merit by performing an entire "kora": complete circumnabulation of the mountain.
16:16 < nmz787> Traditionally one travels in a clockwise fashion. Daniel chose to peform kora in both clockwise and anti-clockwise directions. The anti-clockwise kora is characteristic of Tibetan Bon religion which predates Buddhism by 15 000 years."
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16:28 < nmz787> brownies: do hot springs count?
16:28 < nmz787> also would they potentially redeposit on someone else if they were in the tub with you?
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16:30 <@kanzure> where does java pull its certs from? i thought it would be /etc/ssl/certs/ but it seems this is not true.
16:30 < nmz787> kanzure: i pinged you elsewhere
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16:30 < brownies> nmz787: sure
16:31 < brownies> nmz787: i'm not familiar with the finer details of karmaphysics. perhaps you could bring some of those fish that nibble on you.
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16:41 < lichen> somebody namedropped me
16:41 <@kanzure> nmz787 is lonely and wants to meet cool people in portland
16:42 <@kanzure> s/lonely/bored
16:42 < lichen> oh right, i think i chatted with him a while back
16:42 < jrayhawk> i am just not man enough for him
16:42 < lichen> i just got back from a chem ii lab... for some reason i was expecting this class to be hard
16:42 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: i think the problem is that you require 48 hour notice before doing things, and nmz787 seems to schedule things 2 hours before leaving.
16:43 < jrayhawk> actually most of the crap we do we schedule pretty shortly
16:43 <@kanzure> ah.
16:43 < lichen> you also in pdx?
16:43 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
16:44 < lichen> cool cool
16:44 < lichen> im just some weird chick who idles in here
16:45 < lichen> and lives in pdx
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16:46 < nmz787> :D
16:46 < nmz787> wow kanzure somehow knows I'm bad with time
16:47 < nmz787> keep portland weird lichen
16:47 < nmz787> :P I live in Hillsboro
16:49 <@kanzure> oh yeah i should make the edmonton optics bot
16:49 < nmz787> wazat?
16:49 < lichen> lol doing my part nmz787
16:50 <@kanzure> nmz787: just an irc bridge to their support chat thing..
16:50 < nmz787> i wonder how many watthours my gutters/downspout would generate here
16:50 < nmz787> ahh
16:50 < nmz787> gee didn't i tell you about that? and i forgot...
16:50 < nmz787> i should bug them when you guys aren't around :D
16:53 < nmz787> "we discovered the anxiogenic properties of our new drug accidentally, while trying to fuck with labmate Steve's coffee #overlyhonestmethods"
16:53 < nmz787> this dude https://twitter.com/talyarkoni
16:53 <@kanzure> "we haven't heard from our advisor in 8 months #overlyhonestmethods"
16:53 < nmz787> Practitioner of psychology, cognitive neuroscience, & informatics. Likes science. Also likes ice cream. Not necessarily in that order.
16:53 < nmz787> Boulder, Colorado  http://talyarkoni.org/blog
16:54 < nmz787> I wonder if he slips things in a lot of peoples drinks
17:03 <@kanzure> why do i not have a $JAVA_HOME how does this work
17:10 <@kanzure> "peer not authenticated" hrmm
17:22 < lichen> nmz787: wasnt it you that was talking about gluten stuff
17:32 <@kanzure> oh great, so java only support tls1 and not ssl3?
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18:11 < jrayhawk> lichen: I/fenn/nmz787 mention it from time to time, probably me the most
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18:12 < lichen> ah
18:12 < lichen> was going to say i tried it and it didnt help me at all
18:12 < lichen> but cutting aspirin out seems to have fixed me
18:12 < lichen> tried a gluten-free diet, i mean
18:13 <@fenn> i've been doing gluten free for the past two weeks and i haven't noticed any improvement either. oh well
18:14 < lichen> admittedly there should be no reason cutting gluten would help me
18:14 < jrayhawk> Gluten-free isn't particularly significant unless you have a specific active immune response to gliadin. The more global response is to prolamines found in essentially all grains and legumes.
18:14 < lichen> from everything ive read, gluten has no links to ulcerative colitis, which is what i have
18:14 < lichen> figured id give it a try anyways because why not
18:15 < lichen> it hadnt occured to me until recently that the small amount of aspirin i took daily to prevent clotting might be an issue (as nsaids are well known for aggravating ulcers)
18:15 <@fenn> jrayhawk: what bout random inflammatory reactions due to LPS coming through the intestinal wall?
18:15 < jrayhawk> Sure, lots of crazy shit happens when you're permeable
18:17 < lichen> given that my problems are ultimately linked to autoimmune problems i gave gluten a try
18:17 < lichen> er, no-gluten
18:17 < lichen> gluten free really isnt that hard once youre in the habit
18:19 < jrayhawk> You really need to remove all grains and legumes. They all have prolamines that set off CXCR3 and cause zonulin release.
18:19 < brownies> what's so bad about legumes?
18:19 < brownies> do lentils fall into this category too?
18:19 < jrayhawk> Yes.
18:20 < jrayhawk> http://www.google.com/search?q=paleo+OR+gaps+OR+scd+OR+%22raw+food%22+AND+%22ulcerative+colitis%22+AND+testimonial
18:20 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/pioneering-researcher-alessio-fasano-m-d-on-gluten-autoimmunity-leaky-gut for more on the mechanism.
18:20 < brownies> hmph. but i like breads and things.
18:20 <@kanzure> because they are toxins and delicious.
18:21 < jrayhawk> Well, have fun with those, then.
18:21 < brownies> what i lack is grain-and-legume-free recipes that are properly matched to my laziness level
18:22 < lichen> ill give those articles a look
18:22 < brownies> i guess i should just hire a chef at this point.
18:22 <@kanzure> i think jrayhawk runs a mail-order food service
18:22 < lichen> ive pretty much gotten rid of my symptoms by taking nicotine and cutting aspirin out
18:22 < jrayhawk> haha
18:22 <@kanzure> he just puts raw bones into baggies and ships them out weekly
18:23 < lichen> anyone know much about the long term effects of nicotine on its own?
18:23 < lichen> as in, not in tobacco
18:24 < brownies> haha
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18:25 <@fenn> lichen: similar to long term use of corticosteroids i bet
18:26 <@fenn> except it's addictive too, yay!
18:26 < lichen> well
18:26 < lichen> yeah
18:27 < lichen> i figured id rather take nicotine than immunosuppressants and steroids
18:27 < brownies> how do you take nicotine?
18:27 < joehot> nicorette
18:27 < lichen> nah
18:27 < lichen> i use an e-cig
18:28 < lichen> nicotine suspended in oil, then atomized
18:28 < lichen> cheaper/easier than using gum or patches
18:28 <@fenn> the gum would be less addictive with the same immune effects
18:28 < lichen> why?
18:28 <@fenn> slower onset
18:28 < lichen> ah
18:28 < lichen> well, ive been using this for two years now
18:29 < lichen> any addiction is there
18:29 < lichen> havent ever tried stopping because having horrible colonic pain is not high on my list of priorities
18:29 <@fenn> wow nicotine does like a zillion things
18:29 < jrayhawk> it's pretty innocuous stuff toxicologically
18:29 < lichen> good to hear
18:30 <@fenn> "stimulates the release of many chemical messengers such as acetylcholine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, vasopressin, histamine, arginine, serotonin, dopamine, autocrine agents, and beta-endorphin."
18:30 < lichen> im mostly concerned about long-term circulatory problems
18:30 < lichen> or anything else significant im not aware of
18:30 < jrayhawk> it causes some vasoconstriction
18:30 < lichen> and thats also why i was taking daily aspirin, to counteract thrombosis risk, but aspirin was just making things worse
18:31 < jrayhawk> Yeah, NSAIDs are pretty nasty
18:31 < lichen> im now using piracetam again
18:31 < lichen> which also has anti-clotting effect
18:31 < lichen> in addition to the nootropic effects
18:32 <@fenn> i'm guessing it works because the adrenaline prevents formation of inflammatory prostaglandins (and any other prostaglandins) similar to how aspirin works
18:32 <@fenn> it = nicotine
18:33 < lichen> the explanation i gleaned from online was that nicotine increases mucous secretion in the colon
18:33 < lichen> which helps buffer damage
18:35 <@fenn> i'd add fish oil and magnesium citrate to your daily regimen
18:37 <@fenn> also make sure to eat foods high in potassium; avocado and banana are good
18:37 <@fenn> any leafy green really
18:38 < lichen> my diet is currently a lot of stir frys, lots of rice, rice noodles, potatoes, spinach, mushroom, tofu
18:38 < lichen> vegetable proteins
18:38 < lichen> peppers, egg, lots of yerba mate
18:38 <@fenn> there ain't no such thing as vegetable protein :P
18:38 < lichen> its uh
18:39 < lichen> whatever you want to call the veggie crumble stuff
18:39 < lichen> meat substitute things
18:39 <@fenn> oh, TVP
18:40 <@fenn> ah i was right, "an excess of ACTH causes Cushing's syndrome"
18:40 < lichen> theres no good term for that food category
18:40 < lichen> hmm?
18:40 <@fenn> nicotine -> adrenaline -> acth -> cushing's
18:41 <@fenn> it's the typical "stressed businessman" look
18:41 < lichen> idk what that means
18:41 < lichen> ill look up cushing
18:42 < lichen> tumor in the pituitary gland
18:43 < lichen> wait no
18:43 < lichen> thats just the normal cause of excess acth
18:43 < lichen> yeah im not gaining any weight
18:43 <@fenn> anyway i don't think nicotine alone will cause cushing's
18:43 < lichen> i havent really be able to gain any weight ever
18:45 < lichen> Nicotine has been noted to directly cause cancer through a number of different mechanisms such as the activation of MAP Kinases.[74] Indirectly, nicotine increases cholinergic signalling (and adrenergic signalling in the case of colon cancer[75]), thereby impeding apoptosis (programmed cell death), promoting tumor growth, and activating growth factors and cellular mitogenic factors such as 5-LOX, and EGF. Nicotine also promotes can
18:48 <@fenn> i wouldnt worry abou the growth promoter stuff
18:48 < jrayhawk> Yeah, "calories" are also promote tumor growth.
18:51 < lichen> ah
18:52 < lichen> im not really at risk of anything right now but i want to know if what im doing now will bite me in the future
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19:12 < delinquentme> http://www.longecity.org/forum/blog/90/entry-580-fundraiser-success/  ??
19:12 < delinquentme> what are they doing with $800 dollars?
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19:13 <@kanzure> they run various fundraisers for small projects like "collect & eat some soil samples"
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19:16 <@fenn> i thought the mouse/C60 replication study was worthwhile
19:16 <@fenn> oh, and that's what the fundraiser was for, cool
19:18 <@fenn> they only raised $167 :(
19:20 < delinquentme> fenn, the post says its complete?
19:22 <@kanzure> we had that french guy in here (AgeVivo?) a few weeks ago doing his own mouse/C60 work
19:24 <@fenn> delinquentme: i think the $800 is to buy C60, as it's hard to get in small quantities
19:25 < delinquentme> I didn't think these guys actually do stuff
19:25 < delinquentme> its awesome to see
19:26 <@fenn> yes it would be nice if this sort of double blind randomized distributed experiment could be done with all the nootropics people are taking
19:26 <@kanzure> nmz787: so now that your location is semi-stable, can we order parts or what
19:27 <@kanzure> fenn: "BUT I FEEL GOOD!!"
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19:35 <@fenn> jrayhawk: do you have any references on prolamins and cxcr3 or zonulin?
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19:37 <@fenn> specifically non-gluten non-gliadin prolamins
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19:46 < nmz787> yes lichen i've beengetting lots of good info from jrayhawk
19:46 < lichen> cool
19:46 < nmz787> very little of it is pur bloggery
19:46 < lichen> im watching a talk on nutrition from a biochem perspective he linked me
19:46 < nmz787> i don't think i will 'feel' paleo kick in tho
19:46 < lichen> interesting stuff
19:46 < nmz787> i can eat grain and beans like a champ
19:46 < lichen> feel what?
19:47 < nmz787> but my father and his father both had heart problems
19:47 < jrayhawk> hey that peter attia thing was a blog
19:47 < nmz787> attacks
19:47 < nmz787> so if i don't get a heart attack i'll thank jrayhawk even if I dont know if paleo helps
19:47 < lichen> paleo is what?
19:47 < nmz787> because from my own opinion i think it's pretty significant
19:48 < nmz787> paleo is no grain, no pseudo grain, no legumes
19:48 < nmz787> they also say no milk
19:48 < brownies> what's a pseudo-grain?
19:48 < nmz787> but i like milk a lot
19:48 < nmz787> and so do all the billions of hindus
19:48 < lichen> i avoid milk already lol
19:48 < nmz787> like amaranth or quinoia
19:48 < nmz787> maybe amaranth is a real grain
19:49 < lichen> whats your main source of carbs in that type of diet?
19:49 < jrayhawk> roots, tubers
19:49 < nmz787> "
19:49 < nmz787> A Paleolithic diet is a modern dietary regimen based on foods
19:49 < nmz787> presumably eaten regularly during the Paleolithic, which includes lean
19:49 < nmz787> meat, fish, shellfish, fruits, vegetables, roots, eggs and nuts, but
19:49 < nmz787> not grains, dairy products, salt or refined fats and sugar, which
19:49 < nmz787> became staple foods long after the appearance of fully modern humans.
19:49 < lichen>  mmm, potatoes
19:49 < nmz787> "
19:49 < nmz787> "
19:49 < nmz787> In a randomized cross-over study, 13 patients with type 2 diabetes, 3
19:49 < nmz787> women and 10 men, were instructed to eat a Paleolithic diet based on
19:49 < nmz787> lean meat, fish, fruits, vegetables, root vegetables, eggs and nuts;
19:49 < nmz787> and a Diabetes diet designed in accordance with dietary guidelines
19:49 < nmz787> during two consecutive 3-month periods. Outcome variables included
19:49 < nmz787> changes in weight, waist circumference, serum lipids, C-reactive
19:49 < nmz787> protein, blood pressure, glycated haemoglobin (HbA1c), and areas under
19:49 < nmz787> the curve for plasma glucose and plasma insulin in the 75 g oral
19:49 < nmz787> glucose tolerance test. Dietary intake was evaluated by use of 4-day
19:49 < brownies> why so few? why not 1300 patients?
19:49 -!- wrldpc [~wrldpc@203.105.94.33] has quit [Quit: wrldpc]
19:49 < nmz787> weighed food records.
19:49 < nmz787> "
19:49 < nmz787> Beneficial effects of a Paleolithic diet on cardiovascular risk
19:49 < nmz787> factors in type 2 diabetes: a randomized cross-over pilot study
19:50 < nmz787> Tommy Jnsson, Yvonne Granfeldt, Bo Ahrn, Ulla-Carin Branell, Gunvor
19:50 < nmz787> Plsson, Anita Hansson, Margareta Sderstrm, and Staffan Lindeberg
19:50 < nmz787> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724493/
19:50 < nmz787> sorry i should have put that in pastebin i guess
19:50 <@kanzure> i think today is the day i introduce nmz787 to pastebin
19:50 < lichen> lol
19:50 < nmz787> brownies: ask jrayhawk
19:50 <@fenn> the url and a short desription would have sufficed
19:50 < nmz787> i think he may follow the authors lineage of work
19:50 < brownies> nmz787: can you paste the entire paper in here
19:51 < nmz787> sure
19:51 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724493/
19:51 < paperbot> error: HTTP 501 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2724493/ (battle station not fully operational)
19:51 < lichen> so the advantage in that is assuming that cutting those out is good because of the short span those foods have been in the human diet to be adapted to?
19:51 < brownies> preferably line by painstaking line
19:51 < nmz787> gimme a sec
19:51 <@fenn> no salt?
19:51 < nmz787> :DDDDD
19:51 < nmz787> i guess eat salty fish?
19:51 < lichen> paleo diet sounds pretty expensive
19:51 < lichen> maybe if i saw a guide it wouldnt
19:51 < lichen> but like
19:51 < lichen> fruit, nuts, and meat isnt really that cheap
19:52 < jrayhawk> Well, there's a strict empiricism-and-biochemistry approach and a observational paradigm approach that mostly arrive in the same place; in general i don't like to advocate for the observational paradigm
19:52 < brownies> eggs and vegetables would suffice
19:52 < nmz787> expensive diet is cheap insurance
19:52 < lichen> fair enough
19:52 <@fenn> by "observational" you mean based on paleontology/anthropology?
19:53 < jrayhawk> I also don't like to advocate specifically for Paleo since the GAPS and SCD communities have the same success with different paradigms.
19:53 < brownies> SCD = slow carb diet? GAPS = ?
19:53 < jrayhawk> Yeah; "our ancestors didn't eat these things and didn't have all these modern diseases, therefor we should do the same."
19:53 < jrayhawk> specific carbohydrate diet
19:54 <@fenn> specific carbohydrate diet; gut and psychology sy(stem)?
19:54 < brownies> oh heh
19:54 <@fenn> "syndrome" just doesn't make sense as a name for a protocol
19:55 <@kanzure> hmm google scholar is using googleusercontent.com as a cache
19:55 <@fenn> i can't figure out what they're saying anyway
19:55 < jrayhawk> well, it was supposed to tie together a giant pile of brain disorders with a common etiology of intestinal permeability, so it's a diet that is also advocating a unified pathology
19:56 < jrayhawk> which is still confusing, but at least explicable
19:56 <@fenn> but WHAT IS THE DIET
19:57 <@kanzure> it was linked here just a day ago
19:57 < jrayhawk> http://gapsdiet.com/INTRODUCTION_DIET.html for interventions, http://gapsdiet.com/The_Diet.html for maintenance
19:57 < lichen> presuming everyone reads everything linked in here
19:57 < lichen> i dont think ive looked in here for months tbh
20:01 < lichen> "microwaves destroy food"
20:01 < lichen> im not sure how much of this is bullshit
20:01 < lichen> so little to back up what theyre saying
20:02 <@fenn> it just doesn't match any sort of pattern i can see.. it just sounds like someone's arbitrary idea of what's healthy
20:03 <@fenn> pretty much the only thing i can see is "no wheat, no sugar"
20:03 < lichen> and eat fucking all the meat broth
20:03 < lichen> thats all i see
20:03 < lichen> them rambling about meat stock
20:03 < jrayhawk> paperbot: http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(89)91996-X
20:03 < paperbot> error: HTTP 501 http://www.lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(89)91996-X (battle station not fully operational)
20:03 < jrayhawk> bah
20:04 <@fenn> no abstract?
20:04 < nmz787> "Cellulose in supplements"
20:04 < nmz787> lol
20:05 < Mariu> that sounds like the Death Star
20:05 < Mariu> lol
20:05 <@kanzure> 501 means that there's no zotero translator for the target site
20:05 <@kanzure> https://github.com/zotero/translators
20:05 <@fenn> the lancet article "is not a formal peer-reviewed article, but is just a short letter to the editor"
20:07 <@fenn> "The authors microwaved milk, and found that one of the proteins changed shape from L-proline to D-proline. This was a worry because D-proline, in large concentrations, is toxic to the kidney and liver. This letter was followed-up by health authorities around the world. The overall finding was that this was not relevant to home heating of milk, because the scientists had exposed the milk to much
20:07 <@fenn> great levels of microwaves than are used in the home."
20:07 <@fenn> really, that experiment hasn't been replicated?
20:08 < jrayhawk> the estrogenic activity always seemed more worrying to me, but they don't even mention that
20:09 < jrayhawk> but anyway, yes, GAPS is hyper-paranoid about everything
20:09 < jrayhawk> it is a scorched-earth diet
20:09 <@fenn> estrogenic activity of what?
20:10 < jrayhawk> plastics upon exposure to microwaves
20:10 < jrayhawk> or possibly just heat
20:10 <@fenn> oh, right. nobody cooks things on the stove in saran wrap
20:11 < lichen> i dont exactly worry about phytoestrogens
20:11 < lichen> dont have a great reason to unlike you all
20:12 < lichen> though ive heard that there is danger that phytoestrogens will outcompete endogenous estrogens but not activate the receptors as strongly
20:12 < jrayhawk> Not really true; estrogen is a liver toxin and pretty badly screws with normal menstrual timing
20:12 < lichen> which is bad for women too
20:12 < jrayhawk> I mean, xenoestrogens mess with normal menstrual timing
20:12 <@fenn> ah jesus christ nothing is what it seems. "However, today's Saran Wrap is no longer composed of PVDC due to environmental concerns with halogenated materials, and is now made from ordinary polyethylene."
20:12 < lichen> i really doubt that the phytoestrogens of soy are enough to induce that kind of liver toxicity
20:12 < jrayhawk> obviously the estrogen/progesterone cycle is natural and (usually) desirable
20:13 < jrayhawk> Everything has an oxidative and inflammatory cost.
20:21 < jrayhawk> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/studies-showing-adverse-effects-of-isoflavones http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/studies-showing-adverse-effects-of-soy haha hot damn those WAPF folks are patient researchers
20:23 < lichen> so basically replace tofu with tempe in my diet
20:24 < lichen> lol... im amused that soy is the worst part of my diet
20:24 < jrayhawk> http://www.westonaprice.org/soy-alert/myths-and-truths-about-soy is a more approachable summary
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20:26 < nmz787> but don't paleo ppl say no milk
20:26 < nmz787> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014067368991996X
20:26 < paperbot> error: HTTP 501 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014067368991996X (battle station not fully operational)
20:26 < lichen> >Japanese housewives feed tofu to their husbands frequently when they want to reduce his virility.
20:27 < nmz787> and i did a bunch of RF and other EM research on bio stuff last spring and i didn't find anything substantial
20:27 < lichen> great paper here, haha
20:27 < nmz787> the only thing was rotation
20:27 < nmz787> occurres
20:29 < jrayhawk> "paleo" is not so much a diet as a field of thought; most of the prominent spokesmen treat milk as a potential pathology rather than an inherent one. Only Cordain was particularly vociferous about it.
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20:33 < panax> i just realized today my soy sauce has sodium benzoate in it
20:34 <@fenn> hm i didn't know about trypsin inhibitors
20:37 <@fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunitz_STI_protease_inhibitor i guess this is why TVP makes you fart
20:38 < nmz787> crap, i can't rememeber my UMB password or library 'barcode'
20:39 < nmz787> so i can't see if that lancet article is available
20:39 < jrayhawk> well, we sorta know its contents
20:39 <@fenn> it sounded pretty wonky and the lack of replication sort of seals the deal
20:40 <@fenn> i mean if microwaves really did change isomerization of amino acids, don't you think someone would have published a real paper about it?
20:41 <@fenn> on the contrary we have "Evidence for the absence of amino acid isomerization in microwave-heated milk" http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00010a034
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20:42 < nmz787> kanzure: we can definitely buy parts, but fenn never finished that CAD and as a result I've been thinking more about DLP projector + microscope lithography... using a camera in the optical path for rough alignment then just move the image more finely on the DLP chip in a non-reactive color, before exposing the aligned image
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20:46 < jrayhawk> "microwave infant" -> "Airway burns in an infant following aspiration of microwave-heated tea"
20:46 < jrayhawk> note to self: do not abbreviate searches of that nature
20:47 < Thorbinator1> lol
20:51 < jrayhawk> http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2012/03/31/with-the-wave-of-a-wand-raw-milk-wipes-away-the-wheeze-how-our-good-friend-glutathione-protects-against-asthma/ http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/2010/09/11/the-biochemical-magic-of-raw-milk-and-other-raw-foods-glutathione/ has some anti-heating stuff
20:52 < jrayhawk> but obviously not microwave-specific
21:01 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00010a034
21:01 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00010a034
21:02 <@kanzure> grr. this one requires frames.
21:11 <@fenn> http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/138/11/2172 so does this one, in a bad bad way
21:11 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/138/11/2172
21:11 < paperbot> error: HTTP 501 http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/138/11/2172 (battle station not fully operational)
21:11 <@kanzure> guh.
21:11 <@fenn> do i have to say "paperbot:"?
21:12 <@kanzure> paperbot hides error messages when you don't use the nick explicitly
21:12 <@kanzure> additionally, it can't parse a url next to text at the moment
21:12 <@fenn> oh. somebody should fix that :P
21:12 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/blob/master/modules/papers.py
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21:17 <@kanzure> fenn: you just volunteered
21:24 <@fenn> kanzure: i know you know regular expressions, what's all this startswith crap
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21:27 <@kanzure> i have no excuse
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21:31 <@fenn> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1782728
21:31 < paperbot> error: didn't find any pdfs on http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1782728
21:31 <@kanzure> that's because ncbi doesn't link to pdfs
21:31 <@kanzure> i mean pubmed
21:31 <@kanzure> we should probably just make it take a pubmed link and find a pdf via google scholar
21:32 <@fenn> well that would explain why i didnt see any link to the actual paper
21:33 <@fenn> i can't believe anyone puts up with this
21:33 <@kanzure> pretty awful huh
21:34 <@fenn> 1991 isn't that long ago
21:34 < delinquentme> outlined in the December edition of Scientific American
21:35 < delinquentme> anyone happen to have a copy of this research ... specifically the one on using fat cells to revert into MSC ?
21:36 <@fenn> delinquentme: be more specific
21:36 <@fenn> who are the authors, what's the title of the paper, where did they do the research, etc
21:39 < delinquentme> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=stem-cell-cosmetics
21:39 <@fenn> i'm not going to read the article for you
21:39 < delinquentme> its mentioned here. and I can tell you it was published in Scientifi American in december 2012
21:41 <@fenn> so it's one of these articles? http://www.scientificamerican.com/sciammag/?contents=2012-12
21:41 <@fenn> i don't see anything about stem cells
21:42 < delinquentme> yeah me neither....
21:43 < delinquentme> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-grow-retina-from-stem-cells wonder if thsi is it
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21:45 < delinquentme> "The initial procedure, outlined in the December edition of Scientific American, used stem cells extracted from her own abdominal fat through liposuction and injected those cells back into her face."
21:46 < yashgaroth> yeah they're not reverting the cells, just harvesting
21:47 <@kanzure> 09:03 < delinquentme> How do mesenchymal stem cells from fat?
21:47 < delinquentme> =P yeah
21:47 <@kanzure> 11:07 <@kanzure> delinquentme: probably the same way you convert any other cell into stem cells, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/stem-cells/
21:48 < yashgaroth> no one's using induced stem cells therapeutically for anything, I hope
21:48 <@kanzure> 11:10 < yashgaroth> fat tissue is rich in mesenchymals, and you won't miss it
21:48 < yashgaroth> yep there we go
21:48 < delinquentme> oh
21:48 <@kanzure> we're just on a repeat loop at this point
21:48 < delinquentme> so wait I've got latent stem cells sitting in my gut fat
21:49 < yashgaroth> they're everywhere
21:49 < delinquentme> and if they're exposed to partocular calcium
21:49 < yashgaroth> and they're not latent
21:49 < delinquentme> they'll differentiate?
21:49 < yashgaroth> not sure where calcium comes in
21:49 < delinquentme> in the article they say that exposure to calcium caused the formation of the bone fragment in the ladys eye
21:49 < delinquentme> it was part of a botox filler or something
21:49 <@fenn> in the article they say the woman who had stem cells injected into her face also had "dermal filler" injected, which is primarily composed of calcium hydroxyapatite
21:50 < yashgaroth> heh well sure anything's possible
21:50 < delinquentme> so theres no reverse engineering going on there huh?
21:50 < delinquentme> its just sucking fat and piping it elsewhere?
21:51 < yashgaroth> separating the stem cells from the fat first
21:51 < yashgaroth> and then hoping that stem cells are all basically the same, I guess
21:52 < yashgaroth> I don't delve into stem cells much because it's exponentially more black-magic than PCR even
21:52 < delinquentme> PCR is black magic?
21:52 < delinquentme> O_o;;;
21:53 < yashgaroth> you haven't been in a lab, seen the shrines set up next to the thermocyclers?
21:53 < yashgaroth> but at least PCR probably won't become a teratoma
21:54 <@kanzure> anyway delinquentme what you were reading was about a thing called a 'stem cell face lift'
21:54 <@kanzure> here's one of the guys selling the procedure http://www.stem-cell-lift.com/
21:54 <@kanzure> http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/13/health/la-he-skeptic-stem-cell-facelift-20100913
21:54 <@fenn> " isolate and grow the customer's mesenchymal stem cells ... Half these cells are frozen for storage; from the other half, technicians harvest hundreds of different kinds of exuded growth factors and cytokines"
21:55 <@fenn> hundreds i say!
21:55 < yashgaroth> it's technically legal, but only when they don't modify the cells, so I doubt they intentionally expose the MSCs to any factors on purpose
21:55 <@kanzure> "Dr. Richard Ellenbogen charges $15,000 to $25,000." well that sounds like the clinic she probably went to, so there's your answer.
21:55 < delinquentme> thats a huge chunk of cash
21:56 <@kanzure> "Dr. Richard Ellenbogen, a plastic surgeon who also practices in Beverly Hills, says that stem cell face-lifts are a booming business. "I've been performing about one every other day," he says."
21:56 < delinquentme> and its outside / above / loopholed around the FDA
21:56 < yashgaroth> you should see what burzynski charges
21:56 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, do you know this person?
21:56 <@kanzure> $20k isn't that much in the scheme of things
21:56 < yashgaroth> not sure who you mean, but none of the people mentioned no
21:57 <@kanzure> haha what "Ellenbogen's procedure is similar, although he says he uses a low-level laser to "activate" the stem cells before he injects them into the skin."
21:57 < delinquentme> im asking on the yashgaroth> you should see what burzynski charge
21:57 < yashgaroth> yeah he's a quack who uses some bullshit to scam cancer patients out of hundreds of Gs
21:57 <@kanzure> nice
21:57 < yashgaroth> I know *of* him
21:58 < yashgaroth> kanzure: you gotta throw some wonk in there, lasers are admittedly a classic choice
21:58 <@kanzure> yes, very sciencey
21:58 <@kanzure> "now we will go to the super technical stem cell activator apparatus.. i call it a laser."
21:59 < juri_> 'laser activated!'
21:59 < yashgaroth> now, the laser activates the DNA through quantum interactions that
21:59 < juri_> like you'd expect to read on a cleaning product.
21:59 <@kanzure> sure maybe the laser damages the dna and the stem cells turn into tumors
22:00 < delinquentme> it would indeed keep the skin nice and tight
22:00 < yashgaroth> teratomas are more viscerally horrifying, though "this is your stem cell. this is your stem cell on pseudoscience [balls of teeth and hair growing inside someone's abdomen]"
22:01 <@kanzure> my only regret is not having invented the stem cell facelift myself.
22:01 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, so to your knowledge no one is clinically using reverted stem cells?
22:02 < delinquentme> I mean I've not heard of anyone
22:02 < yashgaroth> maybe in china somewhere, but probably/hopefully not
22:02 <@kanzure> just call them up and ask. say you have a huge budget.
22:02 < delinquentme> I thought this was actually reverting ... hence why I was tripping out
22:02 < delinquentme> lol
22:02 <@fenn> delinquentme: it says in the article the FDA has approved bone marrow stem cell transplant for leukemia
22:02 <@fenn> there are many trials currently underway
22:02 < yashgaroth> nope, there's some clinic in colorado I remember reading about, they pull out adult stem cells and shoot them back in to paralyzed people's spines
22:03 < delinquentme> " yes I would like a horn. yes a genuine facial bony protrusion. Yes a unicorn. "
22:03 < yashgaroth> and it's apparently legal since it's their own tissue
22:03 <@kanzure> delinquentme: that's not quite how tumors work
22:03 <@fenn> what about jackalopes
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22:03 < yashgaroth> fenn: that procedure's been around for a while, iirc it has a 50% mortality rate
22:03 < delinquentme> yashgaroth, not bad!
22:04 < yashgaroth> and then there was the corollary story about some guy with HIV and leukemia doing that and getting cured, since his donor was a ccr5 mutant
22:04 <@fenn> yashgaroth: the high mortality is because they also nuke the existing immune system?
22:04 < yashgaroth> cured of both, I should say
22:04 < yashgaroth> yes, pretty much
22:04 < yashgaroth> but compared to dying of leukemia, it's not a bad deal
22:05 <@fenn> i think i'll take not dying
22:06 <@fenn> ah here's what i was thinking about as for horns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shope_papilloma_virus
22:06 < Viper168> don't knock it till you've tried it
22:06 < yashgaroth> it also nukes the red blood cell supply, not sure which is the more dangerous part
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22:07 <@fenn> but the existing red blood cells should be fine
22:07 <@fenn> i'd expect radiation induced anemia to be treatable, at least in the short term
22:08 < yashgaroth> sure but they don't have a very long half-life, same with platelets and all that
22:08 < yashgaroth> it's probably due mostly to the effect of massive chemo and radiation, yeah
22:09 <@fenn> 50 days? surely that's long enough for the transplanted stem cells to get a foothold
22:10 < yashgaroth> in a body that's as close to death as medically possible
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22:16 < delinquentme> awesome
22:16 < delinquentme> mailing myself dis info
22:16 <@kanzure> well.. time to watch the world burn
22:16 <@kanzure> https://github.com/rapid7/metasploit-framework/pull/1282.diff
22:16 <@kanzure> delinquentme: you patched your rails servers, right?
22:17 < delinquentme> yarth
22:18 <@kanzure> the railsapocalpyse
22:20 <@fenn> wow this looks like hollywood code
22:20 <@fenn> "'; (eval(%[#{code}].unpack(%[m0])[0]); @e=true) unless @e #':" +" !ruby/object:OpenStruct\n table:\n  :defaults: {}\n"
22:21 < yashgaroth> watch it, you'll crash freenode
22:21 <@kanzure> yeah, it's a yaml code injection vulnerability for all versions of rails 2.x and 3.x
22:21 <@kanzure> so basically all of silicon valley
22:21 <@kanzure> because rails by default parses incoming xml requests
22:22 <@fenn> so don't use the internet for a week
22:22 <@kanzure> i had to go through my list of projects i've worked on and upgrade some old customers/clients
22:22 <@kanzure> because apparently nobody else called them and told them about this
22:22 <@fenn> you are too kind
22:22 <@kanzure> yes.
22:23 <@kanzure> oh shit i forgot one
22:23 <@kanzure> eh i guess there's nothing valuable on there
22:24 <@kanzure> also this one was hilarious.. http://stephensclafani.com/2013/01/09/vulnerabilities-in-heroku/
22:27 <@kanzure> nmz787: btw you should also consider asking around in #reprap for pdx people
22:28 <@kanzure> https://gist.github.com/4499206 "Proof-of-Concept exploit for Rails Remote Code Execution (CVE-2013-0156)"
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 10 00:00:26 2013