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01:42 < eleitl> morning, gentlemen.
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06:39 < delinquentmee__> kanzure,
06:39 < delinquentmee__> i dont know how to save humanity
06:39 < delinquentmee__> =[
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06:45 < eudoxia> "everyone thinks about changing the world, nobody thinks about changing himself"
06:45 < eudoxia> quoting tolstoy, that's another watchlist for me
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07:28 < eleitl> if you want to save humanity, solve the energy, food and resource problem.
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07:32 < chris_99> get making that fusion reactor in your back garden!
07:35 < eleitl> There's already a fusion reactor in your back garden.
07:35 < archels> and/or produce fewer offspring
07:35 < eleitl> Even with wireless power delivery.
07:35  * archels runs
07:36 < chris_99> haha eleitl, it's so far away though
07:36 < eleitl> Solar output is 4 MT/s, with Earth intercepting 2 kg/s. That's two Hz of Tsar Bombas.
07:36  * nsh blinks
07:36 < eleitl> Or 10^5 in excess of what we need right now.
07:37 < nsh> may i borrow that eleitl? (two Hz of Tsar Bombas.)
07:37 < chris_99> hmm, i wonder if fusion may produce energy a lot cheaper than the amount of solar panels you'd need for the same power output
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07:37 < eleitl> sure, nsh
07:37 < nsh> i would recommend avoiding language constructs such as "produce energy"
07:38 < chris_99> why
07:38 < eleitl> it's 2 kHz of Hiroshima/Nagasaki
07:38 < nsh> as they reinforce poor grasp of physics
07:38 < chris_99> it's perfectly valid nsh imo
07:38 < eleitl> chris_99, show me a working fusion reactor first
07:38 < nsh> if you're thinking about it as being produced, you may possibly not be thinking about it in the most effective fashion
07:39 < chris_99> even fission probably extracts then, energy cheaper than solar i bet
07:39 < nsh> in fact, if you're not thinking about entropy, then you're doin' it wrong
07:39 < eleitl> you bet wrongly, chris_99
07:39 < eleitl> besides, we're talking about sustainable stuff, not something which peaks by 2040, if scaled up
07:39 < chris_99> last time i checked solar panels where exceptionally expensive
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07:40 < eleitl> you sound american, chris_99
07:40 < chris_99> i'm not
07:40 < chris_99> for your interest
07:40 < eleitl> ok, did you do the total lifecycle accounting of PV production?
07:40 < eleitl> as compared to fossil?
07:40 < eleitl> or nuclear?
07:41 < chris_99> nope i'm merely hypothesising, i'd like some evidence to the contrary though
07:41 < chris_99> also what about countries where it's not especially sunny
07:41 < eleitl> The German energy grid already is at 21.9% renewable, 135 TWh total.
07:41 < eleitl> Wind was 45 TWh, biomass 41 TWh, photovoltaics 28.5 TWh and
07:42 < eleitl> hydro 20.5 TWh.
07:42 < eleitl> These numbers are for 2012.
07:42 < chris_99> how much nuclear does germany use?
07:43 < eleitl> Less than solar. They switched off most of their nuclear.
07:43 < eleitl> I think nuclear right now is effectively at 3%, if all things are factored in.
07:44 < chris_99> intriguing
07:44 < eleitl> solar is very good to peak demand matching, which happens to be almost exactly noon in Germany
07:44 < eleitl> elsewhere, the peak might be a bit off
07:45 < eleitl> gas turbine peak plants will probably have to be subsidized next, as they almost always idle
07:47 < eleitl> what I hope to see is turning peak into hydrogen and methane, via Sabatier
07:47 < eleitl> German natural gas grid can currently buffer 3 months worth
07:47 < chris_99> it looks like france may use a majority of nuclear
07:48 < eleitl> France's Hollande has decided to limit nuclear fraction
07:48 < eleitl> reason is that nuclear doesn't work, even in France
07:48 < chris_99> why doesn't it work?
07:49 < eleitl> Because it is a very expensive, not sustainable form of energy production which is fraught with severe problems.
07:49 < eleitl> e.g. France imports electricity in the summer, mostly from Germany
07:49 < eleitl> (it also does in the winter, but because the French have electric heating)
07:49 < chris_99> according to wiki ". In 2003, it produced 22% of the European Union's electricity, primarily from nuclear power: "
07:50 < eleitl> it does it because the reactors have to be shut down during heat waves
07:50 < eleitl> This is 2013, not 2003.
07:50 < eleitl> The French nuclear industry has a bad work safety track.
07:51 < eleitl> They also have demonstrated extreme cost overruns in their latest two construction projects.
07:51 < eleitl> And so on, and so forth.
07:52 < eleitl> See e.g. http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/wind-energy-now-cheaper-than-nuclear-in-france-92181
07:52 < superkuh> Since no one has mentioned it explicitly yet: liquid fluoride thorium fission reactors with distributed solar seems to be the solution to me.
07:53 < eleitl> superkuh, show me a working alternative fuelcycle breeder, then we talk
07:53  * nsh frowns when people talk about "the" solution
07:53 < eleitl> we can rule out certain solutions
07:53 < eleitl> e.g. biofuels will never amount to much
07:54 < eleitl> in fact, the 41 TWh biomass of 2012 in Germany will hopefully not be exceeded, and scaled back
07:54 < nsh> says a biofuel
07:54 < nsh> (but agree)
07:55 < eleitl> people have been actually used as fuel in crematoriums, in concentration camps
07:55 < nsh> ultimately it's all solar
07:55 < chris_99> yeah thorium sounds interesting superkuh there was a post on it recently http://rein.pk/thorium-reactors/
07:55 < chris_99> on HN
07:55 < eleitl> even fissibles is of stellar origin
07:55  * nsh nods
07:55 < eleitl> thorium sounds interesting, until you look at it in detail
07:55 < eleitl> then, it stops sounding so interesting
07:55 < superkuh> Can you expand on that, eleitl?
07:55 < nsh> i have a rule of thumb
07:55 < superkuh> I've been looking at it for a couple years now.
07:55 < superkuh> But I guess I'm blind.
07:56 < nsh> "if it's so amazing, why aren't you rich and laughing at me instead of trying to convince me of things?"
07:56 < chris_99> what?!
07:56 < eleitl> thorium efforts are not new
07:56 < eleitl> there have been many of them, all across the world, and so far all have failed
07:56 < superkuh> Are you talking about solid fuel thorium?
07:57 < eleitl> if you look at the US MSR pilot, then it you'll see it did not run on the thorium fuel cycle
07:57 < eleitl> it was a toy, and it fed off the uranium fuel cycle
07:57 < eleitl> show me a working MSR Th breeder
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07:57 < superkuh> Okay. But what you said was untrue.
07:57 < eleitl> what was untrue, superkuh?
07:57 < superkuh> "<eleitl> there have been many of them, all across the world, and so far all have failed"
07:58 < eleitl> yes, all thorium fuel cycle reactors have not resulted in a working design
07:58 < eleitl> all of them have problems
07:58 < eleitl> the Chinese seem to think that the THTR shutdown was a fluke
07:58 < eleitl> they're going to learn it the hard way
07:59 < ParahSai1in> show me a working uranium reactor 80 years ago
07:59 < eleitl> they're not working even now
07:59 < eleitl> you probably didn't get the memo yet
08:00 < ParahSai1in> i really must have missed that memo
08:00 < eleitl> they don't make prime rib pitchblende anymore
08:00 < eleitl> show me a working uranium fuel cycle breeder, and then we talk
08:00 < nsh> .wik natural uranium nuclear reactor
08:00 < yoleaux> "A natural nuclear fission reactor is a uranium deposit where self-sustaining nuclear chain reactions have occurred. This can be examined by analysis of isotope ratios." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor
08:00 < ParahSai1in> i wonder what they're actually doing in that cooling tower in bay city
08:00 < eleitl> yes, that was 2 gigayears ago
08:01 < eleitl> back then U-235 ratio was about twice of today
08:01 < ParahSai1in> probably thats where the stargate is, and nuclear reactor is just cover for it
08:01 < eleitl> now, it's either graphite, or CANDU
08:01 < nsh> CANDU?
08:01 < nsh> oh
08:01 < nsh> -oh
08:01 < nsh> ?
08:01 < eleitl> canadian heavy water moderated reactor
08:01 < eleitl> Canadians have plenty of hydro, eh
08:01 < nsh> ok
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08:01 < eleitl> Hence electrolysis, and heavy water up the wazoo
08:02 < eleitl> Just as Norway, when it got raided by ze Germans
08:02 < eleitl> stole two tons of heavy water
08:02 < nsh> they crossed more than two tons of heavy water just to get there
08:02 < chris_99> "France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over EUR 3 billion per year from this." seems interesting to me
08:02 < superkuh> All thorium is fertile. There's no need for for "prime rib". The amount of fissiles needed to start is not significant compared to current usage rates. I acknowledge that online chemical reprocessing in a two fluid reactor has not been demonstrated and that is is a truly hard problem. But I don't think there are any indications that it is infeasible. I have great hope for the Chinese project. Time will tell.
08:03 < eleitl> "very low cost of generation" <-- bullshit
08:03 < chris_99> if it still gains 3 billion, can't be that much bullshit ;)
08:03 < nsh> well, it's clearly low cost relative to what people will pay for it
08:03 < eleitl> the chinese project is not MSR, superkuh
08:03 < ParahSai1in> theres nothing fundamental in physics preventing fission from being an abundant source of energy
08:03 < eleitl> it's the plain old graphite pile
08:03 < ParahSai1in> just politics
08:03 < superkuh> eleitl, that is false.
08:03 < eleitl> ParaSailin, sorry, you have no clue
08:04 < chris_99> eleitl, that's constructive
08:04 < superkuh> I mean, I've watched ~50 videos of their post-docs and profs talking about it at various conferences.
08:04 < eleitl> the Chinese project I heard was a graphite pile reactor
08:04 < ParahSai1in> i guess i have no clue
08:04 < eleitl> they say sometimes about MSR but I'm aware of an actual Th cycle MSR yet
08:04 < superkuh> Even the head of the Chinese academy of sciences explicitly stated there is a huge MSR project.
08:04 < superkuh> For thorium.
08:04 < eleitl> do you have an URL for that, superkuh?
08:04 < superkuh> I'll go grab his spech off youtube for you.
08:05 < eleitl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor#Chinese_Thorium_MSR_project
08:05 < eleitl> Chinese Thorium MSR project
08:05 < eleitl> Under the direction of Jiang Mianheng, The People’s Republic of China has initiated a research project in thorium molten-salt reactor technology. It was formally announced at the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) annual conference in January 2011. Its ultimate target is to develop a pilot scale thorium based molten salt nuclear reactor in 20 years.[15][20][21] The proposed completion date for a test 2 MW pebble bed solid thorium and molten salt 
08:05  * eleitl is not impressed
08:06 < eleitl> wake me up when they have a 1 GW Th MSR
08:06 < superkuh> You can be not impressed. But you are obviously wrong.
08:06 < superkuh> Don't move the goalposts.
08:06 < ParahSai1in> what exactly is your motivated cognition here eleitl?
08:06 < eleitl> superkuh is wrong
08:06 < eleitl> see, I can also generate useless test
08:06 < ParahSai1in> solar only future?
08:06 < ParahSai1in> ludditism?
08:07 < eleitl> I have no interest discussing this topic, sorry
08:07 < chris_99> haha
08:07 < eleitl> been there, done that, got the T
08:11 < superkuh> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLX8jCKL9I4&list=SPKfir74hxWhM6oHIkO7YkezWAue0iQETw
08:12 < superkuh> I've watched this one, the first half is pretty much all politics but it does confirm what I've said.
08:13 < eleitl> thanks for the video. I will not discuss this topic anymore.
08:13 < superkuh> Okay.
08:16 < chris_99> would ITER be one of the first fusion reactors?
08:16 < eleitl> fusion, as in break-even?
08:17 < eleitl> everybody can do fusion
08:17 < eleitl> trouble is do cost-effective sustainable fusion
08:17 < eleitl> Tsar Bombas converted 1 kg of matter to radiation, and most of it was from fusion
08:18 < chris_99> i'm talking nuclear electric power
08:18 < eleitl> Hirsch-Farnsworth produce enough neutrons that you don't want to stand next to them for very long
08:18 < eleitl> ITER (which looks like they killed it) won't produce electric power
08:18 < chris_99> "Success is widely anticipated and there are already plans afoot to build a "demonstration power plant" to start operating in the 2030s." which sounds interesting
08:18 < eleitl> 2030 is a very interesting date
08:18 < superkuh> Dense plasma focus already has better figures of merit for energy in/ neutrons out than ITER or the laser inertial confinment projects. But it is sort of fringe.
08:19 < eleitl> because we're currently at peak overshoot, and there should be plenty of die-off by 2030
08:19 < eleitl> whatever fixes you need, they need to be 80% done by 2050
08:19 < eleitl> which is TW/year, or 3 TWp/year substitution rate for the next 40 years
08:20 < eleitl> we're currently at 30 GWp, so do the math
08:20 < eleitl> 30 GWp/year, I mean
08:22 < eleitl> 2030 looks significant due to http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Looking-Back-on-the-Limits-of-Growth.html
08:22 < eleitl> you see food is slightly off, so that might shift, but probably not by much
08:23 < eleitl> the next 20 years should tell us whether the model is completely wrong, or not
08:23 < chris_99> seen this superkuh http://prometheusfusionperfection.com/ i found that quite fascinating
08:24 < superkuh> Yes.
08:24 < eleitl> what happened to that polywell pilot?
08:24 < superkuh> The emc2 polywell is still getting funded by the navy if I remember correctly.
08:24 < eleitl> did it deliver?
08:25 < superkuh> It achieved the navy's goals, whatever that means.
08:25 < eleitl> I think tokamaks are quite dead, so you need something different
08:25 < eleitl> especially if you don't have to do tritium breeding as well
08:26 < eleitl> that could be a game changer, but I have not seen any evidence for it so far
08:26 < eleitl> meanwhile, I'll put some 0.3 kWp up this spring, and will play around with it
08:27 < eleitl> it's too bad there are no cheap proton membrane electrolyzers
08:28 < eleitl> no reason why http://www.ginerinc.com/popup.photo.php?p=LWH2&n=2&s=products wouldn't be dirt cheap, if mass produced
08:28 < eleitl> electrocatalysts needs not necessarily be platinum group
08:28 < ParahSai1in> nafion is expensive
08:29 < eleitl> we need a lot of money dumped into electrochemistry
08:30 < eleitl> I'm very worried is that there is almost zero research into vital areas in the old West
08:31 < eleitl> I'm not sure Asia can compensate for our lack
08:31 < eleitl> slack, even
08:32 < ParahSai1in> looks like their cheap alternative to nafion uses palladium and ruthenium
08:33 < eleitl> plants use magnesium
08:33 < eleitl> there is no magic in specific elements
08:33 < eleitl> there are frequently ways to substitute something which was not deemend substitutable
08:34 < ParahSai1in> im giving you a reason why http://www.ginerinc.com/popup.photo.php?p=LWH2&n=2&s=products would not be dirt cheap, if mass produced
08:34 < eleitl> well, yeah, but the actual reason is that these are unicates
08:34 < eleitl> not mass-produced
08:34 < ParahSai1in> and also made out of precious metals
08:34 < eleitl> the price of nafion or even platinum has much less to do with that
08:35 < ParahSai1in> mostly the precious metals
08:35 < eleitl> look at the price of commercial high pressure units
08:35 < eleitl> at that price they'd be better made from solid platinum
08:36 < eleitl> doesn't compute
08:38 < ParahSai1in> a high pressure what unit?
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08:43 < eleitl> high pressure electrolysis
08:44 < eleitl> to simplify a pressure assembly
08:44 < eleitl> you don't need a compressor, and can put the unit inside the pressure tank
08:45 < ParahSai1in> whats the significance of electrolysis?
08:46 < ParahSai1in> to current topic?
08:46 < eleitl> if the current topic is saving the humanity, then hydrogen from electrolysis is a key factor
08:47 < ParahSai1in> why?
08:47 < eleitl> you need hydrogen for air nitrogen fixation, Sabatier, and the like
08:47 < eleitl> current peak production can already overload the grid, and you need a technology compatible with natural gas
08:47 < eleitl> enter hydrogen, and methane
08:48 < ParahSai1in> i think there's plenty of cheap hydrogen left to be made from coal
08:48 < eleitl> um, peak coal is 2030
08:48 < eleitl> there's nothing particularly cheap about a resource on the way out
08:49 < ParahSai1in> there's hundreds of years of coal left
08:49 < eleitl> there an infinity of years of coal left, it's just going to stay where it is
08:49 < eleitl> EROEI
08:50 < eleitl> you're looking for peak, not complete exhaustion
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08:50 < ParahSai1in> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#World_coal_reserves
08:51 < eleitl> http://www.theoildrum.com/node/8064
08:52 < eleitl> it might be sooner, because due to peak oil especially developing economies have turned to coal to compensate
08:52 < eleitl> peak oil was 2006, in case you also missed that memo
08:53 < ParahSai1in> you're kind of an asshole aren't you
08:53 < eleitl> always happy to be of service
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08:53 < ParahSai1in> i said nothing about oil
08:54 < eleitl> I mentioned oil because peak oil *might* accelerate peak coal, due to compensation
08:54 < eleitl> We don't see it in the data yet
08:56 < eleitl> The next problem on the table is food.
08:56 < eleitl> Energy is closely linked to food, so that one's up next.
08:57 < eudoxia> because mechanized agriculture requires oil?
08:57 < eleitl> Yes. Fertilizer, pesticide, fuel.
08:57 < eleitl> US 10:1 of fossil energy input for each food calorie output
08:58 < eudoxia> i'm counting on OSE and 3d printers to save us all
08:58 < eudoxia> you know, somehow
08:58 < eleitl> I sure hope you're right, eudoxia.
08:58 < ParahSai1in> develop thorium and then fusion, and then food is solved
08:58 < eleitl> Because hungry people tend to do very stupid things.
08:59 < eleitl> ParahSailin, have you seen the population curve, according to World3?
08:59 < eleitl> a TW/year is about 1000 new nuclear reactors, annually.
09:00 < eleitl> for the next 40 years
09:00 < eleitl> plus electrification, plus infrastructure retooling
09:00 < eleitl> as is, our infrastructure is already going to shit
09:00 < ParahSai1in> 80 years ago, thermal coal reactors were expensive
09:01 < eleitl> the volume of the shift bio-fossil was an order of magnitude smaller, and it took half a century
09:01 < eleitl> plus, the world was a different place back then
09:02 < ParahSai1in> nuclear engineering is solvable
09:02 < eleitl> it might be. Just do it, then.
09:02 < eleitl> Or pay somebody for doing it.
09:02 < eleitl> See any of that?
09:02 < ParahSai1in> any of what?
09:03 < eleitl> Of the work, and money to pay that work.
09:03  * eleitl doesn't
09:03 < ParahSai1in> politics
09:03 < eleitl> it might well be, but it doesn't matter what the reason is
09:04 < ParahSai1in> i think that political problems are easier to solve than metaphysical problems
09:04 < eleitl> You can assume that China and India will be trying to solve these problems.
09:04 < eleitl> Europe and North America won't.
09:07 < eleitl> Sorry if I didn't manage to cheer you up.
09:07 < rigel> none of this shit is going to matter because were all going to be migrating due to crazy weather events
09:08 < eleitl> weather will likely improve where I sit actually
09:08 < eleitl> I'm on the right side of the Alps
09:08 < rigel> cant build infrastructure like a thorium reactor if your labor force is fleeing your country for lack of food or water or opressive heat or superstorms
09:09 < rigel> and if you could you still need the infra to get the power distributed out
09:09 < eleitl> you're completely correct, rigel
09:09 < eleitl> you didn't even mention wars
09:10 < eleitl> because there will be plenty
09:10 < eleitl> R&D kind dries up during wars, for some strange reason
09:10 < rigel> for some things anyway
09:11 < eleitl> the next world war won't be a lot like the last ones
09:11 < eleitl> or even regional conflicts, which turn a tiny bit nuclear
09:12  * eudoxia is lucky to live in the least likely to be nuked region of the world
09:13 < eudoxia> unless those argentinians try to take the falklands and the fallout floats up to uruguay
09:13 < eleitl> oz and south america should do quite well
09:14 < eudoxia> unless australia continues to burn
09:14 < eleitl> it is a lot easier to terraform australia than the Mooon
09:15 < eudoxia> new zealand seems like a nice place to put a cryonics facility on
09:17 < eleitl> I was thinking about how to reduce running costs due to cryogenics
09:17 < eleitl> and to harden facilities about disruption
09:18 < eleitl> Brian said that they did a thermal analysis of large soft vacuum assemblies way back, and found it a wash against Bigfoots
09:18 < eleitl> I'm not entirely sure about that
09:18 < eleitl> Just refills blow some 20% of LN into air
09:18 < eleitl> and most of loss goes through the dewar neck, so you have to eliminate that
09:19 < eleitl> so it seems to have to scale up, and use a labyrinthine path inside, so you'll need active agents for insertion and removal
09:19 < eleitl> electroheated suits with rebreathers, or robots
09:19 < eleitl> Brian said that was unnecessary drama a la Darwin. Maybe.
09:20 < eudoxia> haha
09:20 < eudoxia> like how a cryo org needs to be able to "weather a war that might last centuries"?
09:20 < eleitl> it sure would suck if a guy passes out inside, and you have to send somebody in to rescue him
09:20 < eleitl> I think if there's a disruption for longer than 10 years you're fucked
09:21 < eleitl> so you need a facility that can cover a decade, with a dedicated caretaker
09:21 < eleitl> beyond that, it's overengineering
09:21 < eleitl> relying on steadiness of biweekly LN refills for a century is pure insanity
09:22  * eleitl loves the smell of DMSO and rotting human flesh in the morning
09:22 < eleitl> it smells like... defeat
09:22 < eudoxia> it would be nice if you could just get an ln2 plant, a few pumps and solar panels and let it run for a few centuries
09:23 < eudoxia> but you need some form of automatics, or human caretaker
09:23 < eleitl> there are commercial systems which run at 2-5 kW and cover a Bigfoot boiloff
09:23 < eleitl> small ones, they use nitrogen separators, so it's not liquid air rectification
09:24 < eleitl> they still need to be serviced periodically
09:24 < eleitl> unattended, you need to have a no movable parts system running on geothermal gradient
09:24 < eleitl> that would work, but it would be large scale engineering, and really expensive
09:25 < eleitl> no movable parts = no solid movable parts. liquids would move.
09:26 < eudoxia> of course
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09:29 < eleitl> fuckit, I missed exporting some hosts
09:29 < eleitl> brb
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09:33 <@kanzure> oh jgilbert was around
09:34 < eleitl> hi kanzure
09:35 <@kanzure> yesss?
09:35 < eleitl> just saying hi. need to export a couple hosts.
09:36 < eleitl> built an all-in-one zfs system earlier today
09:37 < eleitl> you should look into something like that when you have time
09:38 < eleitl> unfortunately, I goofed up and forgot to specify not to use a SAS backplane
09:53 < eleitl> hackerspaces ML looks fucked. they're discussing gender issues now.
09:53 < eleitl> that won't end well.
09:55 < eleitl> now I need 20 min to kill, and nobody's around
09:57 < eudoxia> what is "ML" in this context?
09:57 < eleitl> mailing list
09:57 < eudoxia> a place?
09:58 < eudoxia> oh facepalm
09:58 < eleitl> oh, yes
09:58 < eleitl> the gender trolls will be descending on them en masse
09:58 < eudoxia> kanzure delete the last couple lines from the logs please
09:58 < eudoxia> oh the shame
09:59 <@kanzure> eudoxia: you will bare your shame for 2 years, then i will consider deleting it
09:59 <@kanzure> bear?
09:59 < eleitl> bore
09:59 < eudoxia> bear
09:59 < eleitl> pedo?
10:00 < eudoxia> lol
10:00 <@kanzure> yes that gender discussion is just going to implode
10:00 < eleitl> they *might* have nicked just in time...
10:00 < eleitl> that
10:00 <@kanzure> eleitl: what's on the agenda today?
10:01 < eleitl> countdown to weekend, cryo meeting tomorrow at my place/lab
10:01 < eleitl> do you know how to weld stainless?
10:01 <@kanzure> not yet
10:01 <@kanzure> some others in here do
10:01 < eleitl> we've got a liquid mixer, which is shittily welded
10:02 <@kanzure> fenn: you are needed :(
10:03 < eleitl> I don't think you need argon, but you probably need special electrodes
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10:03 < eleitl> eudoxia is actually from uruguay?
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10:04 <@kanzure> yes
10:04 < eleitl> wow.
10:04 <@kanzure> i mean, if he's faking it, he has been highly consistent about it for multiple years
10:05 < eleitl> Big city?
10:05 <@kanzure> no clue
10:05 < eleitl> I was wondering what distant hackers do.
10:05 < eleitl> Whether they're just isolated, or build their own little local activities.
10:05 <@kanzure> he likes lisp and scheme. a lot.
10:06 < eleitl> he has good taste
10:06 < eleitl> local activities = local groups
10:06 <@kanzure> we have a few people from czech (sanky, pasky)
10:07 <@kanzure> (chido)
10:07 < eleitl> to my shame, I've never gone to Prague yet
10:07 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/groups
10:08 < eleitl> Mathias Bock?
10:08 <@kanzure> where? what?
10:09 < eleitl> he's mentioned as a contact for Munich
10:09 <@kanzure> Matthias Bock <matthias.bock@hu-berlin.de>: [diybio, openspectrometer.com, open source hardware, spectrometers, spectrophotometers, "person:nathan mccorkle"]
10:10 <@kanzure> Matthias Bock <matthias.bock@hu-berlin.de>: [diybio-berlin, diybio]
10:10 <@kanzure> Matthias Bock <matthias.bock@hu-berlin.de>: [open manufacturing, diybio, 3d printing, lemoncurry]
10:10 < eleitl> he's in Berlin?
10:10 <@kanzure> i think so
10:10 <@kanzure> guess i should fix that, oops
10:12 < eleitl> I think my saturation point with email is reached
10:12 < eleitl> time to start pruning lists
10:13 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=56fb4dc1 Bryan Bishop: fix diybio-berlin contact deets
10:15  * eleitl is off to see the wizard
10:16 < eleitl> catch you laters
10:16 <@kanzure> night
10:16 < eleitl> n8
10:20  * pasky doesn't feel distant ;-)
10:22 < ParahSai1in> does google books give everyone identical preview pages?
10:22 <@kanzure> to my knowledge no
10:22 <@kanzure> i remember fenn was testing that at one point for reassembling a book from the previews
10:24 < ParahSai1in> it would be cool to have a p2p network to scrape pages and assemble, but that backdoor would be trivial for google to fix
10:30 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://books.google.com/books?id=4niZl6Qn2SsC&pg=PA4&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2iePXUSH4A7ftpjCul51ANUumYQQ&w=685
10:30 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/97630dbf3506560317498bd1c6673660.txt
10:57 <@kanzure> "3d printable object search engine" http://www.fabforall.com/
10:58 <@kanzure> too bad they don't have parametric search or something useful
11:01 < delinquentmee__> where buy 505 long pass filter?
11:01 < delinquentmee__> nmz787,
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12:13 < ParahSai1in> really? "touch finished.txt.tmp && mv finished.txt.tmp finished.txt"
12:13 <@kanzure> finished.txt.tmp might already exist
12:22 < ParahSai1in> nah, they just "$(TOUCH) $(SAFE_TARGET)" which expands to that
12:23 < ParahSai1in> not super redundant i guess
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13:41 < nmz787> so why don't we just email these folks directly with a link to sign up for the google group? http://diybio.org/safety/biosafety-advisory/
13:42 <@kanzure> yeah, i don't know
13:42 <@kanzure> i think that would make sense
13:44 < nmz787> called one of the listed ppl
13:45 < nmz787> left a msg
13:45 < nmz787> why does the diybio descript obscure that 'univrsity' she works for, google immediately tells me its uPitt
13:46 <@kanzure> it seems a little separated.. like these people couldn't be bothered to just discuss things openly?
13:47 <@kanzure> why should safety get the boot
13:51 <@kanzure> nmz787: you should bring those issues up on the list
13:51 < nmz787> kanzure: how do you know Randall A. Gordon
13:51 < nmz787> kanzure: yeah i made a post
13:52 <@kanzure> randallgorden was a user in here for a while
13:54 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://www.springerlink.com/index/081317611K3170U3.pdf
13:55 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ccbc84341fc1d5eca5cdb934037f29c8.txt
13:55 < nmz787> do you know this guy kanzure https://plus.google.com/u/0/105872806106213007611/posts?cfem=1
13:55 <@kanzure> no
13:57 < nmz787> "Those are fantastic cases, and a great option for the vast majority of Nokias Lumia 820 customers. But in addition to that, we are going to release 3D templates, case specs, recommended materials and best practiceseverything someone versed in 3D printing needs to print their own custom Lumia 820 case. We refer to these files and documents collectively as a 3D-printing Development Kit, or 3DK for short"
13:59 <@kanzure> yes they posted some stl files
13:59 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0926-6690(95)00029-C
13:59 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/7825715341c79551bbc50d9a7799589.txt
14:00 < ParahSai1in> paperbot: http://pdn.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MiamiImageURL&_cid=271144&_user=1694017&_pii=092666909500029C&_check=y&_origin=article&_zone=toolbar&_coverDate=1995--31&view=c&originContentFamily=serial&wchp=dGLbVlV-zSkzV&md5=fb0703b544518c3db67e27556b9de0dd&pid=1-s2.0-092666909500029C-main.pdf
14:00 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9a187cd05989cd616986c3601b897837.pdf
14:02 <@kanzure> paperbot should try via multiple proxies before giving up
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14:06 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: here's the springerlink one, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Thermal%20stability%20and%20impact%20and%20flexural%20properties%20of%20epoxy%20resins-epoxidized%20caster%20oil-nano-caco3%20ternary%20systems.pdf
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14:10 <@kanzure> cpopell: welcome back
14:10 < cpopell> Supposed to have a meeting with xhonk.
14:10 < cpopell> WHen's the last time you see eud around?
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14:10 < cpopell> *saw
14:10 <@kanzure> a few hours
14:11 < cpopell> Hmm. I'll camp out here till I see him again.
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14:17 < ParahSai1in> kanzure: thansk
14:17 < cpopell> Swartz hung out here from time to time, didn't he? My condolences to anyone who knew him.
14:18 < sbp> thanks
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14:36 <@kanzure> rvca: hello
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15:43 <@kanzure> who was it in here that has a data hand keyboard? was that JayDugger?
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15:47 <@kanzure> "One [DataHand] worker achieved 90 wpm in less than an hour and others have achieved their flat keyboard speed in a couple of days to several days."
15:54 <@kanzure> this design doesn't make sense to me: http://www.dustyneuron.com/fingerworks/images/layouts/LP_silver_QWERTY_sm.jpg
15:54 <@kanzure> in this one, you have to move your right hand off of the keys to the arrow keys
15:54 <@kanzure> backspace/space being easily accessible is nice
15:55 <@kanzure> and home/end/page up/page down are also not as easily accessible. in my experience most function keys are rarely used, why wouldn't they just put the useful stuff in the middle where f1-f9 are?
16:01 < joehot> datahands are cool if you type like a robot
16:02 < joehot> any design that separates the keys doesnt account for the fact that you can move your hands around
16:03 < joehot> if your hands were glued to the keyboard like then it would be extremely uncomfortable. but did anyone really learn to type that way?
16:03 < joehot> like they contend*
16:04 <@kanzure> here's someone who wrote an algorithm to search for alternative keyboard layouts:
16:04 <@kanzure> http://arcavia.com/kyle/Projects/ProgrammerKeyboard.html
16:04 <@kanzure> his cost function might need tweaking though
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16:06 <@kanzure> "This was a humongous waste of time. The program to do the analysis is about 700 lines of code, and went though about 3 iterations. I am most disappointed by the lack of benefit offered by a more efficient layout; even when considering a purely optimized layout you only get 21% savings over Qwerty."
16:07 <@kanzure> but i think his method looks a little suspicious, he doesn't seem to account for "reaching" or "reach paths" really
16:08 <@kanzure> and why would you assume rows?
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16:13 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: hi
16:13 < yashgaroth> yo
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16:35 <@kanzure> readcube is distributing custom javascript to different academic publishers
16:36 <@kanzure> http://onlinelibrarystatic.wiley.com/js/wol.readcube.js
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16:41 <@kanzure> athens has an xss vulnerability
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17:11 < abetusk> evening
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19:28 <@kanzure> underscor: thanks for the "Show n entries" dropdown, it helps
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20:26 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone.
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21:20 < juri_> hio. :)
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22:41 <@kanzure> you guys are boring :(
22:45 < juri_> still waiting for an answer.
22:45 < juri_> ;)
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22:47 < juri_> you know, when i asked the nice people in anonops the same question, they replied immediately, and were very helpful. now, whos this man wearing a black suit, pounding on my door? he seems helpful, too!
22:48 < juri_> i hope he's friendly! :P
22:53 < JayDugger> Sure he is...
22:53 <@kanzure> pfft pulling projects out of my ass perfectly suited to your skills is not easy
22:53 <@kanzure> it's asking quite a lot
22:53 <@kanzure> especially if all of the prjoects flying by haven't been anything you want to engage in
22:56  * juri_ nods.
22:57 < juri_> well, worse case, i'll just work on that improved microscope.
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23:07 < brownies> juri_: we could use more people on the Glowing Cat project
23:30 <@kanzure> or dna synthesis/microfluidics, nanoengineer, afm, hplc, spectrography, etc.
23:32 < juri_> spectography could be fun. building a gas chromatograph?
23:33 <@kanzure> nmz787 has been working on an open source hardware project for spectrophotometry
23:33 <@kanzure> http://openspectrometer.com/
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--- Log closed Sat Jan 19 00:00:34 2013