--- Log opened Wed Jan 23 00:00:38 2013
00:03 < bkero> for python mq's try beanstalk
00:05 < brownies> i like the look of beanstalk
00:06 < brownies> but i couldn't find anyone who's actually using it
00:24 < kanzure> hmm https://marketplace.firefox.com/
00:28 < kanzure> eleitl: yes i saw that email already
00:32 < kanzure> eleitl: do you have any specific comment about it though?
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01:09 < eleitl> morning kanzure
01:09 < eleitl> what's with all the fuss? I have missed all of it.
01:10 < eleitl> is there a genuine problem, or is there some overreaction on either party's part?
01:11 < phm_> I haven't seen any problem.
01:11 < eleitl> you understand why I'm trying to bring in Zero State members, right?
01:12 < eleitl> it's a motivational measure
01:13 < phm_> Influx of new people can feel threatening.
01:14 < phm_> Trust takes time.
01:15 < phm_> My guess is that things will work out fine. I may have been part of the problem, I don't know. But I will likely disappear soon.
01:16 < phm_> and I'm not a Zero State member.
01:17 < eleitl> do I know you in RL,  phm_?
01:17 < phm_> I doubt it. Why? Do I sound like someone you know?
01:18 < eleitl> No idea. I just like to know who's doing what where. Maintaining a mental map tends to be very useful on the long run.
01:19 < phm_> I think I'm an anomaly.
01:19 < eleitl> The more interesting, then.
01:19 < phm_> Not sure.
01:20 < phm_> I hope I'm not boring.
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01:21 < eleitl> You definitely aren't, we've had a nice conversation yesterday.
01:22 < phm_> I enjoyed it.
01:23 < phm_> I'm not sure if kanz enjoyed my attempt at conversation with him. I think perhaps not. I hope he is happy.
01:24 < phm_> I should have said: I hope he is not unhappy.
01:25 < eleitl> I should really try to read the backlog.
01:25 < phm_> 'I hope he's happy' could be misinterpreted.
01:26 < eleitl> let's see whether we can get ZS members to pay for the Iceland host
01:26 < eleitl> it should be part of the pedagogical scheme to make end users use crypto routinely
01:26 < phm_> I don't like crypto. I use telnet in preference to shh :)
01:26 < phm_> ssh
01:27 < eleitl> well, there won't be any telnet access to that host
01:27 < phm_> awww
01:27 < eleitl> that would defy the whole point, won't it
01:27 < phm_> What point?
01:28 < eleitl> we want to do a crypto party in OpenQwaq sometime in the coming two months
01:28 < phm_> cool
01:28 < eleitl> there should be a motivation for ZS users to learn and follow basic security and safety guidelines
01:28 < phm_> I'd like to see OpenQwaq used properly
01:29 < eleitl> right, pushign for OQ acceptance and use is another positive side effect
01:29 < phm_> have you ever met in second life, or was that just a kanz slur on OQ?
01:30 < eleitl> what are you referring to?
01:31 < eleitl> I have used SL in the past, as well as looked into OpenSim
01:31 < eleitl> I will only use technology which can't be taken away from you, and is useful
01:31 < eleitl> I don't like the design of OpenSim
01:31 < phm_> He said that ZS people have second life parties. I assumed he was making fun of OQ.
01:31 < eleitl> I'm not aware of any SL users of ZS.
01:32 < eleitl> As to parties, huh, sure, we're such a fun-loving bunch.
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01:32 < phm_> I think he intended it to be an insult.
01:33 < eleitl> If Bryan doesn't see the utility of decent audio and putting live video on avatar's faces...
01:33 < phm_> Going with his 'hplusroadmappers do/make shit, ZSers just write blog posts and have parties' theme.
01:34 < eleitl> I don't know what he is meaning with that, and will wait until he's back, and explains
01:34 < eleitl> No sense in guessing what people mean
01:34 < phm_> Maybe he was genuinely mistaken and confused OQ with SL. I don't know.
01:35 < strangewarp> Sounds like good-natured ribbing, honestly
01:36 < strangewarp> but yeah, kanzure prefers people who Actually Make Stuff, from what I can tell
01:36 < eleitl> see, no need to leap to conclusions
01:36 < phm_> I agree with him about that.
01:36 < eleitl> strangely enough, I also prefer people who actually do things
01:36 < phm_> He's right to criticise the bloggers.
01:37 < eleitl> you will find that Bryce Lynch is pretty capable, and I do some physical layer things as well, occasionally
01:37 < eleitl> I don't think it's futile to motivate people to actually do things by providing an example
01:38 < phm_> Sure, but a lot of it is wild speculation, I guess.
01:38 < eleitl> I will abstain from criticizing certain efforts in public
01:38 < phm_> And I understand why he might criticise ZS for doing too much philosophy.
01:39  * eleitl doesn't do philosophy, at all
01:39 < phm_> Amon is very wordy.
01:40 < eleitl> down to a fault, at times
01:40 < phm_> I was reading some ZS stuff and thinking 'is this really necessary/useful?'
01:41 < eleitl> it's not my design. I think in person Amon is very motivational.
01:41 < eleitl> I think I'll let him know about online verbiage thing.
01:42 < phm_> I will probably try to meet him face to face if he's based in London.
01:42 < eleitl> do that, he's a nice guy
01:42 < phm_> He sounds nice online.
01:42 < phm_> I like his style.
01:43 < eleitl> we planned another ZS meeting in May in Munich, but it will be pushed back, and probably happen in London.
01:43 < eleitl> we'll definitely do a mixed reality event, with people attending in OQ and using a video projector
01:43 < eleitl> that shit works surprisingly well
01:44 < phm_> I probably wouldn't come to Munich, but there is a good chance I'd come to London.
01:44 < eleitl> I personally consider travel a major nuisance, and try to eliminate it as often as humanly feasible
01:44 < phm_> hence the commune!
01:44 < eleitl> I see the point if you have a lab, in fact I'd prefer to have a lab right next door to the living room
01:45 < eleitl> but, you have to make compromises
01:45 < eleitl> look at this: http://www.m4.de/fileadmin/user_upload/m4_Seite/Gebaeude_Luftbilder_Karten/Campus_Martinsried_gesamt.JPG
01:45 < phm_> Humans are social animals. Interacting on computers all day is very unhealthy for them.
01:45 < eleitl> this is 30 min away from me on the bike
01:46 < eleitl> just the point of frigging VR!
01:46 < phm_> not good enough.
01:46 < phm_> And why bother when we can just live together?
01:46 < eleitl> if you see your face on the avatar and hear audio, and can manipulate stuff together, that triggers a lot of social machinery
01:46 < eleitl> because most of us are spread all over the world, and we're busy
01:46 < phm_> true, but IRL is even better.
01:47 < eleitl> if wishes were horses
01:47 < strangewarp> Interacting on computers can only be framed as unhealthy for a social species if you're a digital dualist...
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01:47 < phm_> even if you can't all leave tomorrow, I think it will play a big part at some point.
01:48 < eleitl> the channel needs to be wider
01:48 < eleitl> I'm actually looking forward to see Oculus Rift with OpenQwaq
01:48 < eleitl> immersion is important
01:49 < eleitl> if you have upper body trackers, then things are much more natural
01:49 < eleitl> and you can bring teleoperation into that
01:49 < eleitl> then, you can do physical layer things, across the world, collaboratively
01:49 < phm_> Yeah, but it will never be as good as real life. At least not in the next 20 years.
01:50 < phm_> And I don't think setting up a commune is all that difficult. I spoke to spencer about it. He is very keen.
01:52 < strangewarp> phm_: I wouldn't say computer interaction is better or worse than physical interaction. It has comparative strengths and weaknesses.
01:52 < eleitl> where in UK would you do it?
01:52 < phm_> Dunno. I'd be happy to squat, but that only works if you can travel light.
01:53 < phm_> The main issue is money.
01:53 < eleitl> if you do a commune you should own the land
01:53 < eleitl> you will need infrastructure
01:53 < phm_> If you own the land, it's not squatting..
01:53 < eleitl> my point precisely
01:54 < phm_> I was thinking more of warehouse squats.
01:54 < phm_> moving on after each eviction.
01:54 < eleitl> was never part of that culture, no idea about that
01:54 < eleitl> it's hard enough to set up stuff in an orderly setting
01:54 < phm_> it's doable, but owning the building would be much much better. But.. money..
01:55 < phm_> Not for me. I can travel light. All I need is a laptop
01:55 < eleitl> I'll be blowing through 1 kEUR this month, and that is very, very frugal for purchases.
01:55 < eleitl> the lab we're renting for 1 kEUR/month right now would cost somewhere 100 kEUR to set up
01:56 < eleitl> if I owned my home, I'd be doing that actually
01:56 < eleitl> as is, I will have to move elsewhere in about 20 years
01:56 < eleitl> sooner, if my dayjob goes tits up
01:56 < phm_> I dreamed that a startup running from a squat could be part of the bootstrap process. I don't know how realistic it is.
01:57  * eleitl doesn't think it's realistic, but he's been wrong before
01:57 < phm_> If we already have some good software that we could make profitable.. maybe
01:57 < eleitl> I prefer using FLOSS things
01:58 < phm_> Me too. But selling code is a means to an ends
01:58 < eleitl> doing proprietary development for money it not quite my cup of tea
01:59 < eleitl> I think the nice my dayjob is in is coming to a close, actually
01:59 < eleitl> niche
02:00 < eleitl> they're doing cheminformatics for a number of industry clients, mostly CAS, though
02:00 < phm_> I'd be happy to hack into a bank if we could figure out how to do it.
02:00 < eleitl> if you want to make money, you should found a bank
02:00 < eleitl> or BTC exchange
02:01 < phm_> Yeah. let's see how the ZS RES thing goes
02:01 < phm_> founding a bank sounds a lot more trouble than hacking one.
02:02 < phm_> I'm sure there is some very low hanging fruit if you don't mind breaking the law.
02:02 < phm_> As long as it's ethical, I don't care how we make the money.
02:02 < eleitl> there should be a damn good reason if you're going something illegal
02:02 < eleitl> if you're just trying to make money, hacking into a bank is probably the worst possible thing you could do
02:03 < eleitl> just whipping up some malware is so much easier
02:04 < phm_> maybe
02:04 < phm_> cheating at online poker, whatever
02:04 < eleitl> what are your skills, phm_? you a developer?
02:04 < phm_> low hanging fruit
02:05 < phm_> Do you think Factor e will ever become self-sufficient / profitable?
02:05 < phm_> software is the only useful thing I do
02:06 < phm_> I'd like to be a mathematician but I'm not very good at it.
02:06 < eleitl> that's your startup thing, right?
02:06 < phm_> software or hacking is the obvious choice for me, yeah.
02:08 < eleitl> I don't really know how to make money with software development
02:08 < phm_> there is a lot of scope in social engineering techniques. 6 months with a good team and I'm confident we could find a way to profit.
02:09 < eleitl> I must admit I'd be rather at working in the BTC economy
02:09 < eleitl> exchanges, arbitrage, etc.
02:09 < phm_> I'm not optimistic about it
02:09 < eleitl> it is worthile to push BTC all by itself
02:09 < phm_> maybe
02:09 < eleitl> if you happen to make money by it, the more power to you
02:10 < phm_> sounds like easy money.
02:10 < eleitl> I am by no means certain that the South Sea Bubble will be a success
02:10 < eleitl> however, if it is, the sky's the limit
02:10 < phm_> "low risk, high yield" heh. What could possibly go wrong?
02:10 < eleitl> right
02:11 < eleitl> I'll be throwing in 2 k of my own money, which I'd rather use for something else
02:11 < phm_> I'd even be happy to sell illegal drugs if it's ethical.
02:11 < phm_> harder to do that without getting caught, though
02:11 < phm_> much harder
02:11 < eleitl> it is very easy to sell drugs, see Silk Road
02:12 < phm_> And where do they come from?
02:12 < eleitl> just make some
02:12 < eleitl> I'm not encouraging you to go down that route, by all means
02:12 < phm_> silk road is still working? I thought they'd shut it down
02:12 < eleitl> my former housemate in SoCal is probably still doing time in the California prison system
02:13 < phm_> exactly. Too easy to get caught.
02:13 < eleitl> it is easy, if you're stupid
02:13 < phm_> make what? Where do the ingredients come from?
02:13 < phm_> That's what I say about hacking/cracking
02:13 < eleitl> you can order research chemicals from China, via custom synthesis
02:14 < eleitl> or you could just make your own
02:14 < phm_> bank hack seems like the perfect crime to me. And I'm not a bio chemist person so I don't know how to make drugs
02:14 < phm_> How do you order them and not get traced?
02:14 < eleitl> some research chemicals are legal
02:14 < phm_> there are too many ways to get caught.
02:15 < eleitl> do you think that hacking a bank is safe?
02:15 < phm_> yes
02:15 < eleitl> describe to me how you would cover your point of origin
02:15 < phm_> if you do it properly, it's impossible to be caught. The hard part is laundering the money
02:15 < phm_> climb a telephone mast.
02:16 < phm_> splice into a cable.
02:16 < phm_> whatever
02:16 < eleitl> how would you compromise the internal systems, without being an insider?
02:16 < phm_> exploit bugs
02:16 < phm_> and social engineering
02:17 < eleitl> via what vector?
02:17 < phm_> any possible software vulnerability
02:17 < eleitl> you're trying to penetrate something from the outside which you have no idea about
02:17 < eleitl> you don't strike me like you have the right set of skills, either
02:18 < phm_> probably not. hacking/cracking is very boring to me.
02:18 < phm_> but I know some people that do.
02:18 < eleitl> just run a botnet, it's much easier, and safer
02:18 < phm_> also an option
02:19 < phm_> my point is, get some hackers together and I feel confident we can pick the lowest hanging fruit.
02:20 < eleitl> if you ever do it, you shouldn't probably discuss it on a public channel like this
02:20 < phm_> Think of how many ways there are to illegal exploit computers and profit.
02:20  * eleitl prefers to be in the solution set rather than precipitate
02:21 < phm_> I'm insane. I talk about a lot of things. I don't even do anything.
02:21 < eleitl> I tend to do things by the book.
02:21 < phm_> ever
02:21 < phm_> Nobody will take a mad guy seriously.
02:22 < eleitl> I pay my takes, I have my dayjob, I have a company on the side, I'm a family person.
02:22 < eleitl> taxes
02:22 < phm_> but is that going to make you enough money to change the world?
02:23 < eleitl> I will be happy if we can get our lab indefinitely funded
02:23 < eleitl> then I'll move on to other things, like make money
02:23 < phm_> makes sense.
02:23 < eleitl> if I can cover some 2.5 kEUR/month, I no longer need my dayjob.
02:24 < eleitl> e.g. doing the snail project will take 20 kEUR in used hardware, and probably a man-year, minimum
02:25 < phm_> playing with snails is not an option for me.
02:26 < eleitl> why?
02:26 < phm_> cos I'm not a biologist
02:28 < eleitl> ok
02:29 < phm_> "As of this past month, China now has a $350m institute with 140 PhDs plugging away on molten salt reactors."
02:29 < phm_> I wonder if that's true
02:29 < eleitl> good luck to them, they're going to need it
02:30 < phm_> heh
02:30 < eleitl> China is pretty desperate, they have to try anything
02:30 < phm_> So you think it's true?
02:30 < eleitl> they use 50+% of world's coal, and they know that 2030 is peak coal.
02:30 < eleitl> it might be well true, it doesn't mean that the project will be a success
02:31 < phm_> I'm thinking they must know something we don't, if it is true. Either that or they're really desperate.
02:31 < eleitl> obviously MSR breeders are useful for a number of applications, e.g. space
02:32 < eleitl> the problem is that they're too late
02:32 < phm_> why?
02:32 < eleitl> they should have started that project in 1980s, and they did not have the money or skills back then
02:32 < eleitl> assuming they have a working product in in 30 years, that's 2043.
02:34 < phm_> Nobody in the west thinks it's realistic? even in 30-100 years
02:42 < eleitl> Germany sees no need, because renewables work
02:42 < eleitl> thin-film PV will be cheaper than dirty coal
02:42 < eleitl> we're getting 30 GWp/year
02:43 < eleitl> we'll be getting 300 GWp/year rollout rate sometime
02:43 < eleitl> that's some 100 GW class reactors annually
02:43 < eleitl> fat chance
02:45 < strangewarp> I dont trust advocates for renewable power, honestly, because they all seem to be.. non-futurist types
02:45 < strangewarp> *don't
02:46 < eleitl> if you're dealing with a problem which should have been started to be fixed 40 years ago, futurists are your enemy
02:46 < eleitl> they will fuck you up
02:46 < strangewarp> Nobody seems to be crunching the question of just how much power would be required by continued economic and technological growth, because it's much comfier to imagine a world where people live 1990's lives, and a giant array of solar panels is enough...
02:46 < eleitl> don't try futurists
02:46 < eleitl> it's about deployment of existing solutions
02:46 < eleitl> you can't build a planetful of new shit in 40 years
02:47 < eleitl> because new shit takes 30 years minimum, and then 40 years to deploy
02:47 < eleitl> so you need old shit
02:47 < eleitl> your friends from the future aren't
02:47 < strangewarp> I wonder whether mature nanotech/replicators would short-circuit that deployment cycle, though...
02:48 < eleitl> if we start working on MNT now, we will have first prototypes in 40 years
02:48 < eleitl> but nobody works on MNT now, so forget it
02:48 < eleitl> you need to spend some 1-3% of world GDP on nano for the next 40 years for that
02:49 < eleitl> but you also need to spend at least that much for shifting energy, and resource and food base to sustainability as well, and that arguably will take twice that much
02:49 < eleitl> nobody thinks spending 2-6% of GDP is worthwhile, or can even be done
02:49 < eleitl> it's a war-scale effort
02:50 < eleitl> because we're at war, and we're losing
02:50 < eleitl> casualties will be 1-3 gpeople, unless we fix our actr
02:50 < eleitl> act
02:50 < phm_> scary
02:51 < eleitl> the degradation so far is slow enough that people don't notice
02:51 < eleitl> very few think we even have a problem
02:52 < eleitl> look at futurists, they think I'm a shrill doomer
02:52 < eleitl> they think The Oil Drum guys are full of shit
02:52 < phm_> I don't know what to think
02:52 < eleitl> instead, it's the official numbers that have been shown to be full of shit, again and again
02:52 < phm_> but I'm scared
02:52 < eleitl> it's good
02:53 < eleitl> you're farther than most
02:53 < eleitl> most don't see a problem at all
02:53 < eleitl> they complain about gas numbers, and why everything is getting so expensive
02:53 < u-metacognition> Problem with what?
02:53 < phm_> they bury their heads in the sand. It's easy for humans to do.
02:53 < eleitl> Basically, that the Club of Rome are qualitatively right, in the World3 model.
02:54 < strangewarp> I think it may be premature to panic about the future, and I definitely think pretending to be superior based on how much you panic is counterproductive
02:54 < eleitl> That we need a war-scale effort at this point.
02:54 < eleitl> I'm not premature. I'm 30 years too late.
02:54 < eleitl> I don't claim superiority, I'm just trying to get more people aware of the problem.
02:55 < eleitl> Not dreaming about fusion, or MSR, or magic nano.
02:55 < eleitl> Green revolution has backfired, there is your anti-progress message right there.
02:55 < phm_> What's the point of raising awareness? Aren't all the smart people already concerned?
02:56 < eleitl> Do you think the world is run by smart people?
02:56 < phm_> No, I think the people who run the world will bury their heads in the sand. They don't want to be made aware. They are delusional.
02:57 < phm_> So they're not going to help us
02:58 < eleitl> Look at what Chu is doing. He's a smart guy, but for some reason his department hasn't been able to do much.
02:58 < eleitl> Clearly he is not getting as much funding as he should be getting, probably by an order of magnitude, if not two.
02:58 < eleitl> You need TUSD budget to budge this, given that the time has ran out.
02:59 < phm_> So you think that raising general awareness will increase his chances of getting more funding?
02:59 < eleitl> just googled: http://energy.gov/articles/chu-president-s-2013-energy-budget-makes-critical-investments-innovation-clean-energy-and
02:59 < eleitl>  $27.2 billion Fiscal Year 2013 budget request for the Department of Energy
02:59 < eleitl> hi hi ha ha
03:00 < eleitl> $60 million to perform critical research on energy storage systems and devise new approaches for battery storage
03:00 < eleitl> $770 million for nuclear energy, including $65 million for cost-shared awards to support  first-of-a-kind small modular reactors and $60 million for nuclear waste R&D that aligns with the recommendations of the Blue Ribbon Commission on America’s Nuclear Future;
03:00 < eleitl> ^^^^ that's completely ass-backwards
03:01 < eleitl> read the budget breakup, and weep
03:01 < eleitl> US is fucked
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03:05 < eleitl> heh, Thiel was in Munich the other day
03:09 < strangewarp> Damn
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03:10 < strangewarp> I read an article a couple months ago where one of MIT's engineering faculty said they were working on a replicator that uses a bank of ribosomes to print multiple materials at once, but now I can't seem to find it, or any corroborating information
03:11 < strangewarp> I remember that the article was written for a very casual audience, so the lede was super buried..
03:20 < eleitl> don't remember reading that
03:23 < eleitl> hah, found someone to weld my stainless, finally
03:25 < strangewarp> hmmm
03:25 < strangewarp> think I'll grab some food, play a bit of HL2, and then do some hardware hacking
03:25 < eleitl> sounds like a good plan
03:26 < strangewarp> I'm trying a couple new tactics for increasing productivity that have worked for friends of mine - namely, programmatic work logging, and succeeding at video games for an hour or two per day.
03:26 < strangewarp> The former encourages regular work; the latter limbers up the mind and builds confidence.
03:27 < eleitl> it is also rewarding
03:27  * strangewarp nods
03:27 < eleitl> you're supposed to treat yourself after success, for positive reinforcement
03:28 < phm_> is your bike a bent?
03:28 < eleitl> pardon?
03:29 < phm_> is your push bike a recumbent?
03:29  * eleitl has a normal mountain bike
03:30 < eleitl> unfortunately, quite useless in winter
03:39 < eleitl> 17% of US' GDP is for heath expeditures
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03:40 < eleitl> sorry, that's 18%, and rising
03:43 < eleitl> what I find super-annoying about electronic communication that frequently it just goes to /dev/null
03:43 < eleitl> there's no feedback to see whether the person is even there
03:43 < eleitl> this is not about IRC, which designed to be throwaway, but even email and Skype messages
03:44 < eleitl> it seems you have to corral people in person, whether video, or an actual room
03:46 < eleitl> http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/22/robot-serves-up-340-hamburgers-per-hour/
03:46 < phm_> Yeah. The software we have at the moment is pathetic.
03:49 < phm_> I wonder how much 3D ICC payed for the IP of teleplace. Would Prisco know?
03:49 < archels> eleitl: I tend to interpret this is as, the content of my message was of insufficient quality to rouse the other party's attention and/or evoke a response.
03:50 < strangewarp> Meh, people idle a lot, so when I speak into the void I just assume everyone's asleep or working
03:51 < strangewarp> This can be solved by reading the backlog... but if you clog the backlog with low-quality chatter, people are less likely to read it. I like to think that /that/ realization encourages people to be more interesting...
03:52 < eleitl> ask prisco, or even teitelbaum
03:52 < eleitl> achels, in case of people who I know are motivated, it indicates of degradation of a medium
03:53 < eleitl> of course you can use that a definition, and just drop people from the team
03:53 < eleitl> you don't read/answer my emails, you're off the team
03:53 < eleitl> except when you're trying to get money or work or equivalents from other people
03:54 < phm_> have you tried openCobalt? How does it compare to qwaq?
03:54 < eleitl> OpenQwaq is the enterprise fork of OpenCobalt. In a sense, TelePlace is extension/pointy-hair set of templates.
03:55 < eleitl> it's also dead, but then, so is OpenQwaq
03:55 < phm_> No it isn't
03:55 < eleitl> they're doing things in JavaScript in the browser now, which I don't like
03:55 < strangewarp> I'm intrigued by Jquery / Node.js, despite all their baggage..
03:55 < eleitl> it's official that they're no longer doing OpenQwaq development
03:56 < phm_> That's not what I was told from a guy that works at 3D ICC
03:56 < strangewarp> Probably going to rewrite my productivity script in JS, and store its data in JSON, once I'm on an up-to-date webhost
03:56 < eleitl> I wonder how they solve the server-side in JavaScript in OQ.
03:56 < eleitl> phm_, can you tell me more?
03:56 < eleitl> it looks like they're focusing on OpenCroquet 2, which is JS in browser
03:57 < phm_> Most of their energy is going into Terf at the moment, but they are still working on OpenQwaq.
03:57 < eleitl> Terf being OpenCroquet 2? I thought OpenTerf was the name of their proprietary client.
03:57 < phm_> No. Terf is what teleplace called qwaq 4.0 I think.
03:58 < phm_> Terf is still smalltalk
03:58 < phm_> unless I'm mistaken
03:58 < eleitl> the only client I use is OpenQwaq 1.0.15 , built 2012-04-22-2129
03:59 < eleitl> oh, somebody put a demon statue in front of me
03:59 < eleitl> nice
03:59 < phm_> And Cobalt came directely from openCroquet. not a fork of qwaq. They are quite different now
04:00 < eleitl> did you import the 3d shapes, phm_?
04:00 < phm_> Nope. Dunno who did that
04:00 < strangewarp> Might just install Node.js on my machine, learn its guts, do a rewrite of my productivity script in a staging area using Nodejs/passportjs/Jquery/bootstrap, and push it to Github, since I think this is the first thing I've written that would actually help people who aren't musicians. Hmmmmmm...
04:00 < eleitl> looks like khannea's work, if anything
04:01 < phm_> I'm waiting for my XP cd to arrive so I can put it on virtualbox and run Terf in that.
04:01 < eleitl> Node.js looks like it's here to say, strangewrap, so sounds like a good plan
04:01 < eleitl> nice thing about OQ, it goes smack through corporate firewalls, with proxies
04:02 < eleitl> a friend of mine used it from inside Intel, no problem
04:02 < eleitl> not completely sure about proxies, haven't tested that personally
04:04 < phm_> Does openTerf even exist? Terf is their proprietary client.
04:04 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/abstract.cfm?URI=oe-21-101-A60
04:04 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/93566bc215fae014cf36cd22a4cdb0ae.txt
04:04 < eleitl> it's probably Terf, I'm getting confused in all the name deluge
04:04 < eleitl> I'm leery of proprietary clients in general, and only OpenQwaq is semi-open-source
04:05 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/viewmedia.cfm?uri=oe-21-S1-A60&seq=0
04:05 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f4d373d64ac8947131d9576886bc7b37.txt
04:05 < eleitl> it's a bitch to build, with all the codecs
04:05 < bkero> What's not open about it?
04:05 < eleitl> I'm told it's the build environment
04:05 < eleitl> could be just as simple as a Makefile
04:05 < phm_> Do you know openQwaq has a python interpreter build into it? I was amazed
04:05 < phm_> built
04:05  * eleitl did know that
04:06 < eleitl> many things are baked in there, a bit frankensteinian
04:06 < eleitl> would be nice to see whether you can get hardware accelerated physics
04:06 < phm_> it's crazy though. They could have just used smalltalk to script
04:06 < eleitl> Smalltalk was ported to Tilera, it can dig that model
04:07 < eleitl> don't ask me about their design decisions
04:13 < phm_> you say OpenCroquet 2 is all js? That seems impossible. You have a link to info? I can't find
04:14  * eleitl goes find it
04:16 < eleitl> first email http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2012-January/010403.html
04:18 < eleitl> it's VWF now: http://xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20121217/062362.html
04:19 < eleitl> not many people noticed
04:19 < eleitl> Giulio didn't knew, either
04:20 < eleitl> their development model is not very open
04:20 < eleitl> while they're a for-profit company, and have been good guys (OpenQwaq) in the past, I'm a bit wary
04:28 < phm_> " So some work go into Terf (closed) and some will either immediately or in time arrive in OQ."
04:29 < eleitl> all I need is a usable OQ I can install on my own servers
04:30 < eleitl> the proprietary client is good enough as is, all I need is ability to build the checked out codebase
04:30 < eleitl> giulio says it's about a man-month, no idea why
04:31 < eleitl> nobody I know is willing to invest that much work
04:31 < phm_> huh? man-month to do what?
04:31 < eleitl> to make it build -- again, don't ask me why
04:31 < eleitl> just check it out, and try to build it
04:32 < phm_> I haven't looked at the server yet.
04:32 < eleitl> server and client is the same thing, minus the visuals
04:33 < eleitl> http://code.google.com/p/openqwaq/wiki/detailedLinuxInstructions
04:33 < eleitl> I couldn't make it work on Ubuntu 12.04
04:34 < eleitl> it's easiest on CentOS with 32 bit
04:35 < eleitl> notice that it doesn't allow you to use video with opencodecs
04:35 < eleitl> streaming video is very important, so it's pretty useless as is
04:37 < eleitl> phm_, if you have some spare time, you could look into that
04:37 < eleitl> that would be a very valuable thing to have
04:38 < phm_> Yeah. It's already on my to do list.
04:38 < eleitl> Great. If I had money, I would actually donate to this. As is, I'm tapped out.
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04:51 < phm_> It is compatible with Squeak 4.1 and Pharo 1.2, has full closure support and was
04:51 < phm_> tested with 8 cores, 16 hyperthreads on Intel systems/tested with 56 cores on Tilera TILE64/TILEPro64 processors.
04:51 < phm_> cool
04:52 < eleitl> yeah, the Tilera part is a major win
04:52 < eleitl> expect that all high-performance systems look that way
04:52 < eleitl> in near future
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04:59 < eudoxia> hi eleitl, phm_
04:59 < eleitl> hi eudoxia
05:00 < eleitl> I have a plan for a cryonics technical list. Do you think you could be a co-moderator?
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05:00 < eleitl> Big guns strictly, invitation only, low-traffic.
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05:04 < eleitl> hi eudoxia
05:04 < eleitl> I have a plan for a cryonics technical list. Do you think you could be a co-moderator?
05:04 < eudoxia> whoops connection problems
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05:04  * eleitl noticed
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05:06  * eudoxia doesn't even know how to unsubscribe from a mailing list
05:06 < eleitl> it's basically just a backup, in case I got hit by a bus
05:07 < eudoxia> i suppose i could
05:07 < eleitl> thanks, great
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05:11 < eleitl> He who forgets to write for the laxative with the opiates, performs the manual disimpaction.
05:13 < eleitl> Moar comedy gold at http://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/1734ux/youre_not_dead_until_youre_warm_and_dead_meddit/
05:18 < archels> "Trust, but verify."
05:23 < eudoxia> 'When in doubt, cut it out.'
05:23 < eudoxia> moderately useful when coding
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06:11 < heath> 17% of US' GDP is for heath expeditures
06:11 < heath> gawd, i wish that was true
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06:12 < heath> [05:39:16] <eleitl> 17% of US' GDP is for heath expeditures
06:12 < cathalgarvey> I wonder does that include Military spending on "Healthcare"
06:13 < cathalgarvey> Although, of overall public spending, you would expect a nation to spend most on education and health, especially considering healthcare for pensioners.
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06:13 < cathalgarvey> Although I have my doubts that the US does so, too.
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06:23 < chris_99> is there a site keeping track of open hardware out of curiousity?
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06:35 < cathalgarvey> This latest GMO scare story hurts my brain
06:36 < eudoxia> link
06:37 < cathalgarvey> From the mailing list: http://independentsciencenews.org/commentaries/regulators-discover-a-hidden-viral-gene-in-commercial-gmo-crops/
06:38 < cathalgarvey> FYI if you're not following that thread, just follow the citation in the article and read the abstract. It's entirely out of context in the article, but even the citation makes all sorts of ridiculous hypothetical conclusions, even though it casually discounts the risk of toxic or allergenic outcomes.
06:39 < cathalgarvey> The article was more the brain-hurting part though. Apparently we're all going to catch Cauliflower Mosaic Virus from GMO crops. What happens then is anyone's guess.
06:39 < cathalgarvey> Perhaps we become cauliflowers.
06:41 < eleitl> there's no reason to have GMO in the food chain
06:41 < eleitl> apart from DRM issues, it just doesn't have enough value, and potentially there are plenty of problems
06:42 < eleitl> the only reason you could think of is to engineer draught-resistant crops which can take higher salinity
06:43 < eleitl> even pest resistance should be be addressed with robotics, not toxins
06:43 < cathalgarvey> Whether or not you think there's a need has no bearing on whether or not it's safe.
06:44 < eleitl> nobody can say whether it's safe
06:44 < cathalgarvey> Can you say whether eating natural crops is safe?
06:44 < eleitl> no, it is not safe, which is why we deal it by gathering information about it
06:45 < cathalgarvey> You mean natural crops can be assessed by gathering information?
06:45 < cathalgarvey> But somehow the same cannot be done with GMO crops?
06:45 < eleitl> if you have Monsanto jumping in, and bolloxing up seed availability, and contaminating old crop lines with unknown crap, that's not helping.
06:45 < eleitl> no extensive testing is done on GMO crops. Nobody has the money for that.
06:45 < cathalgarvey> I'll agree with the Monsanto DRM/Availability crap
06:46 < cathalgarvey> but what they're adding (contaminating) is widely documented.
06:46 < cathalgarvey> It's not even a little bit "unknown"
06:46 < cathalgarvey> And plenty of extensive testing has been done, and continues to be done
06:46 < eleitl> I see plenty of value in red biotech, but green biotech is one huge sack of problems.
06:46 < cathalgarvey> That's why EFSA are in charge of crop approval in the EU: to assess safety testing. If it didn't exist, it would all be a bit moot.
06:47 < eleitl> One potential is engineering algae, particularly algae in extreme habitats (high-pH, high-salinity) which can persist against wild type
06:47 < eleitl> not at all sure that can be done
06:47 < eleitl> wild type is there for a reason
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06:48 < eleitl> outcompeting wild type by engineered type, that's a major challenge
06:48 < cathalgarvey> ..how is engineering single-celled organisms responsible for 20% of global photosynthesis any safer than engineering highly domesticated, easily contained strains of edible crops?
06:49 < eleitl> because few halophiles thrive at pH 11
06:49 < eleitl> and becase we are kinda desperate
06:49 < cathalgarvey> So we'll grow all our crops at pH 11..
06:49 < cathalgarvey> what happens to all the waste salt after production?
06:50 < eleitl> there is no waste salt, you keep it in the lake
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06:50 < cathalgarvey> I'm still wondering how this is better than growing biodegradable, reduced chemical crops
06:50 < eudoxia> that algae thing might be useful with the increasing acidity of the oceans
06:50 < cathalgarvey> Increasing acidity means reduced pH
06:50 < eleitl> you don't want engineered algae in the oceans
06:50 < cathalgarvey> not pH 11
06:50 < cathalgarvey> Ah, I get you
06:50 < eleitl> but e.g. Salton sea is pretty contained
06:51 < eleitl> you can make up plenty more in deserts
06:51 < cathalgarvey> I'm loving this Matrix style future where we all eat mushy algae
06:51 < eleitl> food crops and energy crops, and also synthesis of precursors and pharmaceuticals
06:51 < eleitl> Soylent green is algaaaaaae!
06:52 < cathalgarvey> shaddap and eat your algae
06:52 < eleitl> actually, Mate Ravasz is on our lab, though he hasn't done much yet
06:52 < eleitl> he wants to do algae, which makes sense
07:04 < eleitl> actually there's an internal market for used equipment at Helmholtz, which we might tap into, thanks to Mate
07:04 < kanzure> openqwaq was always a silly idea. i think you guys should drop it and just use html.
07:05 < eudoxia> i just like irc
07:05 < eleitl> well, they did, they're now reimplementing it in HTML5
07:06 < eleitl> it is only a silly idea if you've completely forgotte how normal people work
07:06 < eleitl> especially nontechnical people
07:06 < eleitl> social cohesiveness is created face to face
07:07 < eleitl> text stream is a very poor substitute, for normal people
07:07 < kanzure> aah eleitl is a slave to CAS. interesting development.
07:08 < eleitl> Technically I've been a second-degree slave to CAS for the last 11 years
07:08 < eleitl> First-degree slave to Springer.
07:08 < eleitl> I've actually had to deal with Wiley, though not yet with Elsevier, thankfully
07:09 < eleitl> I also eat babies. It helps to pay the bills.
07:17 < eleitl> heh, just got an email from my kid
07:17 < eleitl> at least from his phone, he took the picture
07:18 < kanzure> i found a remote code execution vulnerability in springer once
07:18 < kanzure> good times
07:18 < eleitl> springerlink?
07:18 < kanzure> indeed sir
07:18 < kanzure> those fuckers can die in a terrible hell
07:18 < eleitl> we're supposed to chemify springerlink
07:19 < kanzure> chemify?
07:19 < eleitl> mine the thing for chemical info, and make it searchable
07:19 < kanzure> searchable to who?
07:19 < eleitl> to those who gatekeepers will admit, after paying the toll
07:19 < kanzure> these companies love to do work like that.. "it's searchable, but only if you're at MIT"
07:19 < kanzure> yep ok
07:20 < eleitl> but you can buy the paper for the low, low price of 30 USD!
07:20 < kanzure> i've always wondered why there isn't a mole at springer that just dumps all the hard drives somewhere on the web
07:21 < eleitl> probably, some of that content is already at libgen
07:21  * eleitl hasn't checked
07:22 < kanzure> not much of it
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07:22 < eleitl> it looks like Zero State will be renting a virtual server in Iceland
07:23 < kanzure> uh.. so what?
07:23 < kanzure> i mean.. why does that require an entire group to do that
07:23 < eleitl> it's a test of commitment
07:23 < eudoxia> what are they going to do with it?
07:23 < eleitl> I'm not very happy with the result, so far
07:24 < kanzure> what? it's a test of commitment to pay $20/mo for a server?
07:24 < eleitl> we're going to make it a core piece of infrastructure
07:24 < kanzure> that's a lousy test.
07:24 < eleitl> how do you gauge how much people are willing to do?
07:24 < kanzure> currently my own budget is at least 10x that for server infrastructure
07:24 < kanzure> you don't.
07:24 < eleitl> well, mine is higher
07:24 < kanzure> okay.. then why do you need this zero state person to do it?
07:25 < eleitl> I need to see whether people would want to put money where their mouth is, and actually use the infrastructure
07:25 < kanzure> also, i strongly disagree with your use of reddit.
07:25 < eleitl> use of reddit for what?
07:25 < kanzure> in general.
07:25 < eleitl> for wasting time?
07:25 < kanzure> no, i see you linking to in non-time-wasting contexts
07:26 < kanzure> it is going to eat your mind away and i will lose you
07:26 < kanzure> like we lost sandberg
07:26 < eleitl> I've been there for 7 years
07:26 < kanzure> plus, it's obvious... http://www.reddit.com/user/eleitl
07:26 < kanzure> yes i'm aware.
07:27 < eleitl> I consider reddit a net positive for me personally
07:27 < eleitl> there were times where I was ready to delete my account, though
07:27 < kanzure> after observing the redditors that come in here, i find that exceedingly hard to believe
07:27 < kanzure> they are in general even worse than zero state
07:27 < eleitl> there are diamonds buried in the crap heap
07:27 < eleitl> I have pretty good filters for that
07:27 < chido> why is that?
07:28 < kanzure> why is which one?
07:28 < eleitl> you just have to set up good subreddits, and read rapidly
07:28 < chido> why is reddit bad for you
07:28 < kanzure> i've never bought that argument about "it's about the subreddits". because if you look at the subreddits, they are all terrible.
07:29 < kanzure> chido: haven't you seen the redditors that come in here and totally crash the channel?
07:29 < eleitl> not all of them are terrible, there are well-moderated ones
07:29 < chido> I wasn't aware of them being redditors
07:29 < kanzure> chido: most of them are. it's easy to tell by asking them.
07:29 < eudoxia> specifically who is a redditor?
07:29 < eudoxia> so i can grep the logs
07:29 < eleitl> the reddit transhumanists are very bad, admittedly
07:29 < kanzure> delinquentme.
07:29 < chido> oh.
07:30 < kanzure> he's the most notable, but there are others that show up just once and then, finally, leave.
07:30 < eleitl> the age histogram of reddit is not good, and they draw the wrong type, so the bulk is self-selected
07:31 < kanzure> ageism doesn't matter
07:31 < kanzure> i still like to pretend that 12 year old me has a chance
07:31 < eleitl> young people are far more stupid
07:31 < eleitl> they can't help it, they haven't been around to learn
07:31 < eudoxia> kanz started work on skdb when he was 17 i think
07:32 < eleitl> bryan is not your average guy
07:32 < chido> on the other hand, young people learn fast
07:32 < kanzure> eudoxia: http://google.com/search?q=kanzure my history goes back to at least 2002 on the web
07:32 < chido> I wish I started earlier
07:33 < eleitl> you have it easy, gopher web was tiny
07:34 < eleitl> all we had was ftp and usenet
07:34 < kanzure> i'd take usenet over this crap
07:34 < eleitl> and email
07:34 < eleitl> how old is IRC?
07:34 < eudoxia> 24 years
07:35 < eleitl> it seems I'm also pre-IRC, at least widely used
07:37 < eleitl> I don't know what happens to Giulio
07:37 < eleitl> He's either becoming kooky in his old age, or he pursues some agenda I can't fathom
07:37 < eleitl> http://turingchurch.com/2013/01/23/can-science-resurrect-the-dead/ <-- e.g. this
07:38 < eudoxia> the whole turing church thing is just
07:38 < eleitl> Terasem, too. Horrible stuff.
07:38 < eudoxia> that too
07:38 < eudoxia> people and their religions, god damn
07:38 < kanzure> eudoxia: you should add "order of cosmic engineers" to your "terrible religions list"
07:38 < eudoxia> i noticed that in the log
07:38 < kanzure> ah good
07:38 < eudoxia> i don't know how i forgot
07:38 < kanzure> it happens
07:38 < kanzure> it's worth forgetting
07:39 < eudoxia> their site is down too so they might fade out without living much of an imprint
07:39 < eudoxia> unlike fucking Terasem
07:39 < eudoxia> they took the Chamberlains too
07:39 < eleitl> yes, I have met the Chamberlains there
07:39 < eleitl> nobody is safe, it seems
07:43 < eudoxia> all this feel-good, New Age nonsense
07:43 < kanzure> eleitl: what is today's plan?
07:43 < eudoxia> the worst part is that it's not even a "small vocal minority"
07:43 < eleitl> I've bought a bunch of stuff today for the lab
07:43 < kanzure> eleitl: also, i would appreciate your take on http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration even though i know it's off topic and counter-productive
07:43 < eleitl> hope to get a quote for a 110 kg DMSO drum
07:44 < eleitl> check your private /msg kanzure
07:44 < kanzure> okay.
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07:48 < kanzure> eleitl: in general, it is good practice to tell me to check my private messages because my irc client sometimes fails to notify me that they exist
07:48 < eleitl> irssi is kinda not very talkative either
07:49 < kanzure> well, i have 300 windows open in irssi and it uses horizontal tabs
07:49 < kanzure> i think there might be a vertical tab plugin somewhere
07:49 < cathalgarvey> Irssi being Irssi I'm sure there's a batty plugin to make it more obvious.
07:49 < eleitl> I think I have some 550 tabs open in the browser
07:49 < kanzure> which browser
07:49 < cathalgarvey> GTG folks, it's awkward-bureaucracy time!
07:49 < eleitl> I'm on Waterfox on Windows since yesterday
07:50 < eleitl> was on nightly, until they killed it
07:50 < kanzure> eleitl: recently i started playing with xmonad and getting rid of alt-tab
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07:50 < eleitl> Chromium and firefox on Linux.
07:50 < kanzure> eleitl: so instead of alt-tabbing to what i want, i do alt-w and then i type the name of the window i want
07:50 < kanzure> and instead of tabs in chromium/firebutt, i just use windows now, and let my window manager manage my windows.
07:51 < eleitl> do you know that 'electronic grade' solvent exactly means?
07:52 < kanzure> EtOh ?
07:52 < eleitl> DMSO
07:52 < kanzure> i was thinking one of those etchants
07:56 < eleitl> what am I going to do with a 100-200 kg drum of DMSO im my garage? The in-laws will kill me.
07:56 < kanzure> solution: kill the in-laws
07:56 < kanzure> strike first
07:56 < eleitl> well, we actually need experimental animals...
07:56 < eleitl> win/win
07:57 < kanzure> failing that, let me look up DMSO in my notes to see what projects there are.
07:57 < eleitl> interesting that the use of DMF is covered by 21CM patent
07:57 < eleitl> I will have to apply for a license, or exemption
07:57 < kanzure> hah 21CM has patents.. i should have guessed.
07:57 < eleitl> 21CM has patents up the wazoo
07:58 < kanzure> are their patents registered in WIPO, or just the US?
07:58 < eleitl> they're a science factory, and cover their ass(et)s
07:58 < eleitl> no idea
07:58 < kanzure> if they are just in the US, you might be safe
07:58 < kanzure> but WIPO is like a global patenting syndicate, especially for the EU
07:59 < eleitl> I wouldn't want to risk bad blood, I need all the help I can get. Beside, if I do contract work, I should be able to get an exemption.
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07:59 < kanzure> background: http://wipo.int/
07:59 < eleitl> have you any idea what VM-2 is going to be?
08:00 < eleitl> ah, eudoxia is no longer with us
08:01  * eleitl is very impressed with eudoxia
08:01 < chris_99> ThomasEgi, have you use a magnetometer before btw?
08:01 < ThomasEgi> befor what? dawn of time?
08:01 < chris_99> haha
08:02 < chris_99> well, have you used one full stop i guess
08:03 < eleitl> 8-port 10 GBit/s Ethernet is down to 800 EUR now
08:03 < eleitl> crappy Netgear, but, still
08:04 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, i do have a couple of them in use as compass in some devices i sold.
08:04 < chris_99> cool, i don't suppose you know if theres any through-hole ones out there, i can't see to find any
08:05 < ThomasEgi> hm. nope.
08:05 < ThomasEgi> they are targeted for mobile devices and usualy come with LGA cases
08:05 < ThomasEgi> but you can get most popular magnetometers on breakout boards
08:06 < chris_99> mm this is what i thought, yeah breakout boards are too big for me
08:06 < archels> paperbot: https://github.com/oreillymedia/open_government/blob/master/open_government.pdf?raw=true
08:06 < chris_99> unfoutunatley
08:06 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/770dac7b3f8f5252027e0660d184c5c5.pdf
08:06 < chris_99> ThomasEgi, did the one you used require a number of passives too
08:06 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, a breakout board is exactly the size of a regular dip package
08:07 < chris_99> the ones i saw looks a fair bit bigger than a dip
08:07 < ThomasEgi> yeah. but those are all soldered on the breakout
08:07 < eleitl> thanks for pointing me to openworm, Kanzure
08:08 < eleitl> how far are they?
08:08 < ThomasEgi> one thing you can do. given you have a steady hand. is to glue the chip upside down on your pcb. and use wires to bond it manually.
08:08 < kanzure> eleitl: i don't know the answer, sorry. they have a bunch of software that works. their openworm-in-a-browser-thing is supposed to work.
08:09 < kanzure> http://browser.openworm.org/
08:09 < eleitl> are they trying a complete simulation from anatomy data?
08:09 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, what are you planning to do with it?
08:09 < kanzure> yes
08:09 < eleitl> very nice
08:09 < eleitl> it's the wrong first target, but if they succeed, the more power to them
08:09 < kanzure> didn't you do c. elegans scanning back in the day?
08:09 < chris_99> ThomasEgi at the moment i'm planning to do this http://openhydrometer.com/about attaching hall effects to a hydrometer, but magnetometers seem more accurate
08:09 < eleitl> yes, I did not knew htat it was not very useful back then
08:09 < kanzure> i have backups of that here:
08:10 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/
08:10 < eleitl> there are reasons against doing C. elegans
08:10 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/snake-and-wormSlice_example.jpg
08:10 < eleitl> it is too small for live recording and too optimized. it doesn't do spiking, e.g.
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08:11 < eleitl> the reason I've switched to L. stagnalis is because it's easier, despite being apparently far more complex (20 k neurons)
08:11 < kanzure> when i went to langton labs last time, there were a few people who were talking about openworm
08:11 < kanzure> and anselm might have done some optogenetics work with it
08:11 < eleitl> optogenetics is cool
08:11 < eleitl> I've talked to Passaro, and he thinks the snail will cost 20 kUSD minimum, used hardware
08:11 < kanzure> it's cool but only useful in limited contexts
08:12 < eleitl> just getting sensible data, and cycle through dewar and back again, I mean
08:12 < eleitl> nothing too racy
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08:12 < eleitl> it's basically a snail version of Suda
08:12 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, seems a bit overengineered to me.
08:12 < eleitl> only highly instrumented
08:13 < chris_99> any sugestions, ThomasEgi
08:13 < eleitl> can you think of a way of using the snail as a SENS animal model, kanzure?
08:13 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, replace the magnet with a  light source. and the magnetometers with a linear photo sensor. or a number of photo diodes.
08:13 < eleitl> right now it looks we'll have to deal with mammal cells
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08:14 < kanzure> eleitl: btw, https://github.com/openworm
08:14 < chris_99> ThomasEgi, hmm i have thought about that, but i thing to get a decent encoding on the hydrometer would be hard
08:14 < kanzure> eleitl: btw, ParahSai1in (in here) worked at SENS
08:14 < chris_99> if thats what you mean
08:14 < eudoxia> eleitl: VM-2 will be like VM-1 but there will be a warning label re mixing it with polyethylene glycol
08:14 < ThomasEgi> you don't need any encoding.
08:14 < chris_99> that way you'd need loads of photo diodes
08:14 < eleitl> they want PEG in there? why?
08:15 < chris_99> the advantage of the hall effects is they can sense above and below themselves
08:15 < eudoxia> no i have no idea what it will be
08:15 < eleitl> ok, I thought you were in the loop
08:15 < eudoxia> haha no
08:15 < eleitl> I should probably ask Pichugin, or whoever is it who designs it for them. Could be Aschwin, for all I know.
08:15 < kanzure> aschwin de wolf?
08:16 < eleitl> Yes, he's basically in charge of Alcor and CI R&D now.
08:16 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, how bout a linear photo-sensor? they have like gazillions of photodiodes lined up nicely
08:16 < eleitl> Plus, he's supported by LEF now, IIRC.
08:16 < kanzure> supported means what?
08:16 < eleitl> Plus, he issues the Alcor's house gazette.
08:16 < eudoxia> funded?
08:16 < chris_99> hmm interesting ThomasEgi :)
08:17 < eleitl> Funded, according to my sources, but I don't know for sure.
08:17 < eleitl> Among us chickens, I'm worried about the situation in cryonics.
08:17 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, this way can capture 2 line-images. one with the light off, one with the light on.  subtract them to get rid of the environment light, then use the weighted average and you should be able to find the result you need with μm accuracy
08:18 < eleitl> People say Alcor has lost 50% of membership in a very short time.
08:18 < eudoxia> it what
08:18 < chris_99> i'm just wondering though if a linear image sensor may be slightly too heavy though
08:18 < chris_99> oh wait, if there was a a light on the hydrometer
08:18 < chris_99> and the linear image sensor floated
08:18 < chris_99> that'd work
08:19 < ThomasEgi> should work just as well
08:19 < chris_99> mm
08:19 < eleitl> it seems they still think 2% is a conservative investment scheme for patient funds
08:19 < chris_99> i might be able to use an old scanner ThomasEgi :)
08:20 < ThomasEgi> yeah. or you buy one.
08:20 < ThomasEgi> at least in germany you can get them for 2 euro
08:20 < chris_99> haha nice, i'll check fleabay
08:20 < eleitl> you can get what for 2 euros?
08:20 < ThomasEgi> eleitl, line-image-sensor
08:20 < eleitl> linear CCD?
08:21 < ThomasEgi> yep
08:21 < eleitl> for what project?
08:21 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, you could also use a triangilation sensor. they have a pretty nice analog output voltage.
08:21 < chris_99> to measure specific gravity, eleitl
08:21 < ThomasEgi> all you'd have to do is make the sensor float, and add a piece of paper ontop of your floating thingy
08:21 < chris_99> ThomasEgi, interesting
08:21 < eleitl> for which project is that?
08:22 < eleitl> incidentally, do you have idea where to get a cheap USB refractometer?
08:22 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, ultrasonic might work too.
08:22 < chris_99> eleitl, just for http://openhydrometer.com/about
08:22 < chris_99> mm i did think of ultrasound
08:22 < chris_99> i could put a plate ontop of the hydrometer
08:22 < chris_99> and measure the distance from that to the top
08:23 < chris_99> however they're not very accurate
08:23 < ThomasEgi> receiver on the floating part, one the transmitter onthe hydrometer
08:23 < eleitl> oic -- brewing?
08:23 < chris_99> yah
08:23 < eleitl> in which city are you?
08:23 < ThomasEgi> if you get the times messured, they are pretty good.
08:23 < chris_99> eleitl, in the UK
08:23 < eleitl> ThomasEgi is in deutschland, then
08:23 < ThomasEgi> good job reading eleitl  ;)
08:23  * eleitl <-- munich
08:24 < eleitl> where are you?
08:24 < ThomasEgi> ←?
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08:25 < kanzure> yes
08:25 < ThomasEgi> koblenz
08:25 < eleitl> too bad, that's too far away
08:26 < eleitl> ah, they have plenty of handheld refractometers on amazon
08:26 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, you could also use a linear poti
08:27 < ThomasEgi> given, it runs smooth enough
08:27 < chris_99> how would i use a linear pot?
08:27 < chris_99> theres not enough force from a hydrometer to directly attach to one
08:27 < chris_99> if thats what you mean
08:27 < ThomasEgi> well.. you'd mount the poti on the float. the slider on the hydrometer
08:27 < ThomasEgi> done.
08:27 < chris_99> not enough force imo
08:27 < ThomasEgi> there isnt?.. that's unfortunate then.
08:28 < chris_99> mm
08:28 < chris_99> someone just mentioned to me some kind of force gauge i could hook to the top
08:28 < chris_99> of the hydrometer
08:28 < chris_99> not sure of any specific ones though
08:28 < eleitl> if you're making fine, you can use index of refraction
08:28 < eleitl> probably not enough sugar in beer
08:29 < eleitl> wine
08:29 < chris_99> theres some problems with refractometers not being especially good for beer i've read
08:29 < eleitl> yeah, you need a lot of sugar
08:29 < chris_99> also making an in-place refractometer isn't easy
08:29 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, if you have a fixed volume underwater, the force it would experience would differ with the density of the liquid. you could make use of that,too.
08:29 < eleitl> we need a flow-through refractometer
08:30 < eleitl> right now making manual measurements with limited manpower is a bitch
08:30 < chris_99> ThomasEgi, yeah calculating the density, bit of a pain though as you'd need exact volume etc.
08:30 < chris_99> eleitl, i found one on ebay but it was like £140
08:30 < chris_99> a while ago
08:31 < eleitl> that looks cheap, for a digital one
08:32 < chris_99> that was for something you dip in the sugar solution if that's what you mean, and just leave it there, you might be talking about something different though?
08:32 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, you can probably just do it the experimental way.. by filling the thing up with water.
08:32 < chris_99> mm that would be possible
08:32 < eleitl> we have to measure effluate, so it's a flow-through cell
08:32 < chris_99> aha
08:33 < eleitl> other options would take aliquots periodically, and measure and record them by hand
08:33 < eleitl> this is bound to cause plenty of missed data
08:34 < chris_99> mm
08:36 < eleitl> 456 refractometers on ebay, almost all of them handheld
08:37 < chris_99> yeah
08:38 < chris_99> ThomasEgi, when you said 2 euro was that for just the sensor right?
08:38 < chris_99> could you link to one per chance
08:38 < ThomasEgi> yeah
08:38 < ThomasEgi> http://www.pollin.de/shop/p/ODg4OTk4/Bauelemente_Bauteile/Aktive_Bauelemente/Optoelektronik.html
08:38 < ThomasEgi> right ontop
08:38 < chris_99> cheers
08:40 < chris_99> that should work really well i reckon
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08:40 < ThomasEgi> btw.. doesnt the speed of sound change with the density,too?
08:40 < eleitl> it does
08:40 < eleitl> speed of light, too
08:41 < ThomasEgi> so you could simly wrap ultrasonic receiver and transmitter in plastic and put it in there?
08:41 < ThomasEgi> no clue how well that would work
08:41 < chris_99> hmm interesting
08:41 < ThomasEgi> speed of sound in water is pretty crazy fast
08:41 < eleitl> you'll need temperature compensation
08:41 < chris_99> yup
08:41 < ThomasEgi> so... you probably have to massure phase angles with an AC bride
08:45 < ThomasEgi> btw. same shop sells the magnetometer
08:45 < ThomasEgi> http://www.pollin.de/shop/dt/NTM4OTgxOTk-/Bausaetze_Module/Module/Kompassmodul_HDMM01.html
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08:48 < eleitl> thought it was from a scanner
08:50 < ThomasEgi> the ccd?
08:50 < eleitl> yeah
08:51 < ThomasEgi> yeah. those are old scanner ccd's
08:53 < chris_99> they're not big enough to be scanner ones are they
08:53 < chris_99> or is that image size decieving me
08:53 < eleitl> handscanners, probably
08:53 < chris_99> aha
08:53 < chris_99> yeah
08:53 < eleitl> you can use optics to go from A4, too
08:53 < eleitl> Si real estate is expensive
08:53 < chris_99> actually 210 × 297 mm
08:54 < chris_99> means it is a4 i think
08:54 < strangewarp> [08:37] <eleitl> http://turingchurch.com/2013/01/23/can-science-resurrect-the-dead/ <-- e.g. this
08:54 < strangewarp> I have a special anger for Turing Church
08:54 < eleitl> tell me
08:55 < strangewarp> You could rehabilitate cosmism with a combination of cognitive materialism and Big Universe, and it would be an extremely compelling theology, but no, they didn't do that at all
08:55 < strangewarp> Instead they just wave their hands and tell people to pray to the Omega State, which is both stupid and unlikely
08:55 < eleitl> I really don't understand Giulio anymore
08:56 < strangewarp> It almost strikes me as a post-Discordian arbitrary-selection-of-stupid-philosophy-to-scare-the-normals-and-feel-clever, ugh
08:56 < kanzure> maybe giulio suffered a stroke
08:56 < eleitl> maybe it's the fear of death, no idea
08:56 < eleitl> people tend to start grasping at straws when the going gets tough
08:57 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, the active sensor is roughly 30mm long
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08:58 < chris_99> 3cm, that seems pretty small
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08:58 < eleitl> there are also some cryonicists, which are just as appalling
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08:59 < eleitl> this blind belief that nothing can ever be destroyed, and everything is reversible is also grating on my nerves
08:59 < chris_99> back in a bit, cheers for your help ThomasEgi
08:59 < kanzure> brlcad has a web thing now? https://github.com/GreatDevelopers/wBRLCAD
08:59 < kanzure> http://cad.devplace.in/form.html
08:59 < ThomasEgi> chris_99, another way would be to use coils. instead of a magnet. and messure the AC voltages from an array of coils.
08:59 < kanzure> i bet it just uses a hosted version of brlcad somewhere
09:00 < ThomasEgi> pretty low tech and only requires a bunch of analog input pins
09:00 < kanzure> "cgi-bin/wBRLCAD/table" ah..
09:00 < kanzure> eww https://github.com/GreatDevelopers/wBRLCAD/blob/master/table
09:00 < kanzure> what the fuck guys
09:01 < kanzure> nevermind. forget i mentioned it.
09:02 < eudoxia> strangewarp: it's not nearly that complex, just a PRAISE TIPLER circlejerk
09:02 < eleitl> they probably haven't gotten the memo that Omega Point is dead
09:02 < strangewarp> ugghhh
09:02 < eudoxia> Tipler is such a nutjob
09:03 < eleitl> at least he made his religion falsifyable
09:03 < eleitl> if only his followers would actually read him, and look at the predictions
09:03 < eleitl> the appendix is also very good, and it's the only good part in the whole book, actually
09:04 < kanzure> funny, i said the same thing about TSiN
09:04 < eleitl> TSiN?
09:04 < strangewarp> Anyone who still thinks Omega Point is likely needs deprogramming. However, if you replace it with Big Universe, it's kind of a fascinating thought-experiment. Which is why it's a pain in the ass that all these new-age wackos keep throwing their bodies on top of the concepts. blaaahhh
09:04 < kanzure> the singularity is near
09:04 < kanzure> "ray kurzweil reads extropy-chat for a few hours, then writes a book about it." the bibliography was basically "extropy-chat".
09:04 < eleitl> never read that. Kurzweil gives me acid reflux.
09:05 < eudoxia> eleitl: predictions in the 'what we'd expect to see if we ran X physics experiement', no?
09:05 < eudoxia> i mean, in that sense
09:05 < eleitl> no, we find particl XY at Z energy
09:05 < eleitl> we didn't, so it's dead
09:05 < eudoxia> yeah things like that
09:05 < kanzure> eleitl: ever hear of helloween or gamma ray?
09:05 < eleitl> universe is open, the show stops at +16.7 GYrs
09:06 < eleitl> helloween?
09:06 < eudoxia> the omega point can only happen in a closed universe no?
09:06 < eleitl> yes
09:06 < strangewarp> eudoxia: yeah. I think
09:06 < eleitl> and since there are ways to prevent information from escaping in the first place, it's all a bunch of nutjobbery
09:06 < eudoxia> i remember hearing tipler say that it could still happen in our universe, but that sounds like bullshit
09:06 < eleitl> "You Could Be Immortal Already!"
09:08 < eudoxia> the guy also thinks we have already discovered every law of physics
09:09 < eudoxia> i don't know but i'm preemptively classifying it as bullshit because of his track record
09:09 < eleitl> Kurzweil's?
09:09 < eudoxia> tipler
09:10 < eudoxia> just another nutjob trying to make physics fit his mythology
09:11 < eudoxia> although we might have to give him credit for getting anders interesting into all this
09:11 < kanzure> "oh how convenient, a crazy sect that doesn't involve you doing work"
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09:15 < eleitl> I'd love to see how Anders' typical day looks like
09:15 < eleitl> I never understood why he didn't go into neuroscience completely
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09:16 < kanzure> i like to pretend that he gave up because his friends sucked
09:16 < kanzure> who exactly were his peers that were helping him? i can't think of anybody.
09:17 < eleitl> you have to carve out your own niche
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09:18 < eleitl> somebody has to start first, so that they could help the rest
09:18 < eleitl> same thing with Randal, I don't know what he's doing, but FV is pretty much dead
09:18 < kanzure> FV?
09:18 < eleitl> Foundation Volunteers
09:18 < kanzure> randal is an odd one. his situation has been unfortunate and complicates things.
09:18 < eleitl> teh sooper-sekrit uploading lair
09:19 < kanzure> no i mean all the drama around his kids/wives/girlfriends/misstresses.
09:19 < eleitl> oh, I missed that one
09:19 < eudoxia> you mean the crazy stalker?
09:19 < eleitl> transhumanists and drama, how unexpected
09:20  * eleitl is probably the only completely normal, boring transhumanist left
09:20 < kanzure> eudoxia: crazy stalker yes, but it was apparently a true story. randal posted a confession letter a while ago.
09:20 < eleitl> fecesbook?
09:20 < strangewarp> The couple of transhumanists I know who aren't in this channel are remarkably drama-free, but I may be the odd one out
09:20 < kanzure> nah on his blog
09:20 < eleitl> who are these transhumanists?
09:21 < kanzure> eleitl: also, the other weird thing about randal is that he leaves code drops all over the place without taking care of them
09:21 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/netmorph
09:21 < kanzure> i found this one on an old server and had to rescue it
09:21 < kanzure> i asked him about it and he just shrugged
09:21 < strangewarp> eleitl: Just some people I know from non-H+ communities who ended up having similar ideology
09:22 < eudoxia> i remember some videos of netmorph
09:22 < eleitl> kanzure, don't see any drama on his blog
09:23 < eleitl> Link?
09:23 < kanzure> can you show me his blog? i forget the url.
09:23 < eudoxia> lol
09:23 < eleitl> http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/
09:23 < kanzure> ok one sec
09:23 < eleitl> the first time I read it
09:24 < kanzure> damn it's not in the logs
09:24 < eleitl> how do you query the logs?
09:24 < eleitl> do you grep from the local log?
09:24 < kanzure> grep randalkoene *.log | grep http
09:24 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/logs/
09:25 < eudoxia> 'wife', 'children', 'stalker', 'confession' all null
09:25 < eudoxia> also 'mistress'
09:25 < kanzure> anyway if you google it you get things like
09:25 < kanzure> "the sophisticated rapist Dr. Randal Koene (Dr. Hitler-Bot) wanted to name his rapechild after Anders! so glad I did not bear the son of sophisticated rapist!!"
09:26 < eleitl> did his stick his dick into crazy?
09:26 < strangewarp> "Dr. Hitler-Bot" A+ H+ nickname
09:27 < eleitl> sounds like schizophrenia
09:27 < eudoxia> ^
09:27 < eudoxia> well his blog definitely doesn't have any confession letterts
09:27 < eleitl> I had a Canadian girlfriend who was/is schizophrenic
09:28 < kanzure> yes it was schizophrenia, except randal had some other issues to deal with too
09:28 < eleitl> hope he recovers
09:29 < eleitl> we need somebody in the US who's going to polish some doorknobs
09:29 < eleitl> that hardware doesn't build itself
09:29 < eleitl> Paul Allan can't fund it all on his own
09:29 < eleitl> Allen
09:29 < eleitl> half a gigabuck by now, Jesus Christ
09:30 < eleitl> he definitely puts his money where his mouth is
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09:31 < eleitl> http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/09/18/inside-paul-allens-quest-to-reverse-engineer-the-brain/4/
09:32 < kanzure> eleitl: http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/what-not-to-do-in-your-personal-life-my-two-years-as-a-liar/
09:32 < eudoxia> le 404
09:32 < eudoxia> http://web.archive.org/web/20120504194959/http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/what-not-to-do-in-your-personal-life-my-two-years-as-a-liar/
09:32 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20120504194959/http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/what-not-to-do-in-your-personal-life-my-two-years-as-a-liar/
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09:32 < kanzure> oh damn
09:32 < kanzure> eudoxia has my back
09:32 < eudoxia> i beat kanz to something
09:33 < eudoxia> 23-Jan-2013
09:33 < kanzure> oh that's the edited version though
09:33 < eudoxia> that's as early as the archive goes
09:34 < eleitl> what a fuckup
09:34 < eleitl> I'm glad he came clean, though.
09:34 < kanzure> 20:36 <@kanzure> eugen, anders, and randal don't have many contemporary peers beating them into shape
09:35 < kanzure> haha that was nearby the logs that had that link
09:35 < eudoxia> what the christ randal man
09:36 < kanzure> i remember the original version of the post. it was dark.
09:36 < eudoxia> i like the summary with the bullet points though
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09:39 < eleitl> fallout from that will take a long time to clear
09:39 < eleitl> especially if there are financial obligations
09:39 < kanzure> yes i imagine he will be preoccupied for quite a while
09:39 < kanzure> yes
09:42 < eleitl> are you tracking what Hayworth is doing?
09:42 < kanzure> no. ever since he started using openquacklife i wrote him off as a loony.
09:42 < eleitl> openquacklife? what is that?
09:42 < kanzure> also, the problem with randal's brand of radical honesty is that divorce attorneys will eat it up.
09:42 < kanzure> openqwaq/secondlife
09:43 < eleitl> don't be a hater
09:43 < eudoxia> oh that talk about the ATLUM
09:43 < eleitl> his talk was useful
09:43 < kanzure> he should just post regular videos
09:43 < kanzure> or html things
09:43 < eleitl> you can't ask a video
09:43 < eleitl> the point was that you could ask him questions, like in a regular lecture
09:43 < kanzure> you can do that with jabber
09:44 < kanzure> also, are you familiar with 3scan?
09:44 < eleitl> I mean in realtime, looking at stuff
09:44 < eleitl> http://www.3scan.com/ ?
09:44 < kanzure> 3scan is a company out of langton labs that recently got thiel foundation backing
09:44 < kanzure> yes. it's todd huffman's company for his microtome riggup.
09:45 < eleitl> ah yes, I'm aware of that
09:45 < eleitl> I wonder why Ken hasn't got funding
09:45 < kanzure> i was telling todd that he should hook up his image analysis stuff to netmorph
09:45 < eudoxia> immortality/h+ talk
09:45 < kanzure> netmorph can generate realistic morphologies and todd's software can supposedly extract networks from micrographs and scans and things
09:46 < kanzure> so netmorph would be an interesting way to generate realistic images that you can test against (because netmorph can tell your testing framework what the answer is supposed to be)
09:46 < eleitl> interesting idea
09:46 < eleitl> oh, Netmorph is Randal's stuff
09:46 < kanzure> yeah
09:46 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/netmorph
09:47 < eudoxia> i started working on a neurite tracer as a get-into-MIT project but got bored at exporting neurons into POVray voxels
09:47 < kanzure> todd/3scan claims to have some software that reconstructs 3d models of neuronal networks based on looking at the edges of cell boundaries and vesicles
09:47 < eleitl> what was the last time he checked in anything?
09:47 < kanzure> he never checked in anything
09:47 < kanzure> i had to recover the code myself
09:48 < eleitl> fucking uploaders
09:48 < kanzure> indeed
09:48 < eudoxia> i remember seeing netmorph in the new MURG site, but you'd already found it by then
09:48 < eudoxia> carboncopies
09:48 < kanzure> if they can't even be bothered to upload their source code, how are they going to remember to upload their brainz?
09:48 < kanzure> yeah, i have a backup of the carboncopies/murg netmorph things:
09:48 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/netmorph/
09:48 < eleitl> just changing names for no reason was stupid enough
09:48 < kanzure> what names
09:48 < kanzure> oh MURG -> carboncopies?
09:48 < kanzure> MURG was better.
09:49 < eleitl> yeah, that, and just pointless change of terminology
09:49 < eleitl> substate-independent minds, and all that quark
09:49 < kanzure> well, separating yourself from silly beliefs in minds is okay i guess
09:49 < kanzure> yeah the problem is he still uses the word 'minds' anyway :P
09:49 < kanzure> whatever
09:50 < eudoxia> i think whole brain emulation is a good enough term
09:50 < kanzure> yes
09:50 < eleitl> yeah
09:50 < eudoxia> nothing about minds, no computer analogies
09:50 < kanzure> eleitl: have you read these yet? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/
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09:51 < eleitl> nope. I haven't read almost anything from diyhpl.us actually.
09:51 -!- TactiNukePillow is now known as radivis
09:51 < strangewarp> omg, it's ridiculous how burnt-out I got on hardware hacking even though I'm the proverbial 10 feet from the finish line on two seperate nifty musical projects. Right. Going to power through a marathon session and finish the most important one today. Sheesh
09:51 < kanzure> eleitl: well, it's an alternative to rtms/tdcs that has much finer resolution
09:53 < eleitl> mm^3, something like that?
09:53 < eleitl> my in-law just spent 4 hours in an OP today. spinal cord tumor.
09:53 < kanzure> yes. whereas rtms/tdcs is cm^3 or worse.
09:53 < eleitl> hope it's not malignant
09:53 < kanzure> paralysis?
09:54 < eleitl> nope, but it would be paralysis if they didn't operate
09:54 < eleitl> 4 hours, it means it wasn't trivial
09:54 < eleitl> human condition sucks
09:54 < eleitl> and I must run home now
09:55 < kanzure> night
09:55 < eudoxia> bai
09:55 < eleitl> not yet, but byes
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10:15 < kanzure> some of the science-liberation-front people are hanging out in #aaronsw apparently
10:16 < strangewarp> Blergh, betting everyone on IRC is gonna get subpoena'd over something eventually
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10:36 < juri_> holy crazyballs. just got done reading the backlog between when the ero state folks were invited here, and now. if i ever rant that crazily, please kick me from the channel.
10:36 < kanzure> with pleasure
10:38 < juri_> that was a lot of traffic, and all i really learned was people work hard to feel like they're solving problems, without doing anything but what they want to do.
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10:45 < strangewarp> I am guilty of this too. In my defense I was a blob of new-age mysticism and bad Nietzsche residue for the duration of my college years (arts degree), and didn't encounter transhumanism until afterwards.
10:50 < strangewarp> I've decided to pursue my natural skills in a field I enjoy, instead of learning maths and engineering from the ground up... and it burns me, because I know this is a violation of the prisoner's dilemma, expecting others to build the technology that supports my ideology.
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10:53 < eudoxia> it's okay strangewarp you're cool
10:58 < strangewarp> Ah, thanks. With any luck I'll find a way to be cool enough to support myself in the arts. :P
10:59 < kanzure> hackteria seems to do that okay
11:01 < strangewarp> Hm, bio-art people. There were a couple of them making blue-chip gallery money, last I saw, with a bunch of hangers-on, yeah
11:01 < kanzure> neat, a site that tracks what the great firewall blocks:
11:01 < kanzure> https://en.greatfire.org/https/github.com
11:04 < kanzure> "I read recently that Abelson has some ties to JSTOR and/or JSTOR management personnel."
11:05 < kanzure> "Members of the MIT community can suggest questions for Abelson’s analysis via http://swartz-review.mit.edu "
11:10 < strangewarp> Random question - anyone here have any opinions on Lee Smolin's cosmology work?
11:10 < kanzure> it's worth reading.
11:11 < kanzure> yes.
11:11 < strangewarp> hmm. @_@
11:12 < kanzure> if anything, because john baez says so. but also because his edge.org content is neat to read.
11:16 < kanzure> "This immaturity and negativity (not to mention ignorance) is disappointing."
11:17 < strangewarp> I'll probably pick up Time Reborn, then, because it seems to contain a plausible idea I hadn't encountered before, an idea which may fill in a missing piece behind a long-term arts project I've been planning.
11:17 < kanzure> amon, you should read my messages more closely. instead of writing me off as someone who hates all humans, you should consider that my messages actually have meaning.
11:19 < kanzure> "Whatever Bryan & co imagine ZS to be, it obviously isn't a simple "failed community", otherwise why would they get so worked up and aggressive by the mention of it?"
11:19 < kanzure> nobody said i thought zero state was a "failed community". what the fuck amon.
11:19 < kanzure> this guy is insane
11:19 < nmz787> ZS?
11:20 < kanzure> nmz787: just a minor flamewar. https://groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZero/browse_thread/thread/c854f1204f394495
11:20 < eudoxia> take your meds, Durham
11:21 < kanzure> eudoxia: he took my comment to you about tracking failed communities on your mediawiki, and assumed that i was telling you that zero state should be on that list.
11:21 < eudoxia> what a crazy assumption
11:22 < eudoxia> i just might, because i'm so mean
11:24 < kanzure> i wish that guy would just leave me alone
11:25 < kanzure> "Despite what Bryan is clearly choosing to tell himself, we are no cult,"
11:25 < kanzure> actually it was eudoxia who said it was a cult
11:25 < kanzure> how the hell can you misread the logs that poorly
11:25 < eudoxia> yeah that was me
11:25 < kanzure> this is just painful
11:26 < kanzure> nobody should have to suffer someone this inconsiderate and uncareful
11:27 < Guest40461> kanzure: you're not exactly a warm cuddly teddybear, i think he feels intimidated
11:30 < kanzure> i don't think it's intimidation in this case
11:30 < kanzure> look at what he wrote in his first email to me:
11:30 < kanzure> > Bryan - like so many Transhumanists - seems to be of the opinion that
11:30 < kanzure> > either you're a technician working professionally in a scientific field, or
11:30 < kanzure> > you are of no value whatsoever.
11:30 < nmz787> kanzure: is that what you think?>
11:30 < kanzure> that's completely inaccurate.
11:31 < kanzure> no.
11:31 < xx> ethics of having children
11:31 < xx> discuss.
11:31 < kanzure> and i am surprised you would have to ask, nmz787
11:32 < xx> anyone
11:32 < nmz787> well i figured it would be good since they're quoting the logs
11:32 < kanzure> no. ethics are banned.
11:32 < xx> ...
11:32 < kanzure> i mean, arbitrary discussion about ethics are banned. take that somewhere else.
11:32 < xx> are you serious?
11:32 < kanzure> yes
11:32 < xx> lol oh okay
11:32 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ
11:32 < nmz787> i'm pretty sure we've talked ethics in here before with no upset
11:33 <@kanzure> sometimes it gets past me
11:33 < xx> that makes a lil bit more sense because transhumanism would go way off without ethical committees ...
11:33 <@kanzure> what?
11:33 < xx> you know, discussion of ethical transhumanism ._.
11:33 < xx> otherwise eugenics would go over board... ?
11:33 < nmz787> i think it's weird how china is trying to do some eugenics, but they specifically don't call it that
11:34 <@kanzure> the reason it is banned is because most of you guys suck at thinking about ethics, and i don't want to pollute this channel with that crap.
11:34 < Guest40461> kanzure: do you think haptics are just as good as finger magnets, or is there a real difference to the feel?
11:34 <@kanzure> Guest40461: i don't have a high opinion of finger magnets in the first place.
11:34 < xx> lol heheheh fair enough :)
11:34 < Guest40461> kanzure: i thought about getting implants, but im kinda skeptical
11:34 <@kanzure> Guest40461: really, you're not missing much
11:34 <@kanzure> Guest40461: it's a cool parlor trick i guess
11:35 < nmz787> some people say they really like the extra data
11:35 <@kanzure> i mean, if it came down to getting a tattoo versus a magnet up your ass, i'd say go for the magnet
11:35 < xx> how come post humanism isnt included in the topic?
11:35 < xx> oh nevermind
11:35  * Guest40461 has his nipples tattooed
11:35 < nmz787> i saw someone i know on facebook using a strap-on type haptic device
11:35 < xx> the channel  is anthropocentric
11:36 < nmz787> it was on his ankle i think or wrist, with virbrators on 4 or 8 directions
11:36 < xx> post humanism anthropocentric . derp
11:36 <@kanzure> xx: let me guess. you're a furry?
11:36 < nmz787> always buzzing north
11:36 < xx> kanzure:  no ma'am...
11:36 < xx> :/
11:36 < nmz787> huh, magnet up the ass... is that a new tek?
11:36 <@kanzure> nmz787: southpaw
11:36 < xx> kind of dissapointed here lol
11:36 <@kanzure> nmz787: no, i was just being descriptive about places to put magnets
11:36 < nmz787> i wonder if that would work
11:36 < Guest40461> nmz787: google teledildonics
11:37 <@kanzure> i'm sure someone has tried a magnet up the ass
11:37 <@kanzure> for the greater good
11:37 < Guest40461> https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-b3pJD_-9EXM/Txf0bT7ow_I/AAAAAAAADag/7jcsetzshwY/s640/Photo%2520on%252010-25-11%2520at%25201.02%2520PM.jpg
11:37 < xx> hmpf
11:38 < nmz787> Guest40461: where the telecontrol is the magnetic flux of the earth@
11:38 <@kanzure> nmz787: speaking of teledildonics, do you remember the emotiv headset?
11:38 <@kanzure> we were reverse engineering it in here for a while,
11:38 <@kanzure> then daeken took over and started emokit
11:38 <@kanzure> and then when he stopped working on emokit, qdot picked it up
11:38 <@kanzure> qdot runs teledildonics.org
11:38 < nmz787> kanzure: yes
11:38 <@kanzure> or.. wait.
11:39 <@kanzure> ah, slashdong.org
11:39 <@kanzure> he also does reverse engineering of other untis
11:39 <@kanzure> *units
11:39 < xx> slashdong LOL
11:39 <@kanzure> https://github.com/qdot
11:40 < Guest40461> heh units
11:40 <@kanzure> "librealtouch".. that's a unit alright.
11:40 <@kanzure> he also did libfitbit for getting data outta fitbit devices.
11:41 < strangewarp> kanzure: ... furry would also be anthropocentric, actually. Ha
11:41 < Guest40461> strangewarp++
11:41 <@kanzure> strangewarp: a lot of the posthumanists were into things like "I WANT WINGS"
11:41 <@kanzure> and then not bothering to read up on chicken embryology
11:42 < nmz787> ahh here it is 'leftover women' is how china is terming their older well-educated women who waren't married
11:42 < nmz787> http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/china-leftover-women/
11:42 <@kanzure> leftover. :/
11:42 < strangewarp> As a wing-wanter with a shitty degree, I empathize
11:42 < Guest40461> i wonder if its possible to create the neural pathways to control appendages we didn't naturally evolve, like wings
11:42 < nmz787> basically they're pushing all these 30s age women who are married to be shamed into marrying
11:42 <@kanzure> 30s is leftover??
11:43 < nmz787> but it's really eugenics to get the smart population to increase
11:43 < Guest40461> kanzure: 30 is old ;)
11:43 <@kanzure> Guest40461: a good start to that would be regular prosthetics control
11:43 < nmz787> they 'shame' the smart single childless people into commitment which should lead to offspring of the smart ppl
11:43 <@kanzure> Guest40461: 30s isn't even cougar territory
11:43 < Guest40461> lol
11:44 < nmz787> well cougars are reproductively as fresh
11:44 < Guest40461> smart people don't usually have kids..... because they're smart
11:44 < nmz787> Guest40461: right, which is where shame steps in
11:44 < nmz787> personally I think it's not half-bad
11:44 < Guest40461> i wonder what that shaming ritual looks like
11:44 < nmz787> i wish it didn't involve shame
11:45 < Guest40461> beat in public until you marry
11:45 < nmz787> Guest40461: billboards
11:45 < Guest40461> billboards?
11:45 < Guest40461> lol
11:45 < nmz787> Guest40461: and TV commercials
11:45 < Guest40461> awesome
11:45 < nmz787> 'So the state-run media keep up a barrage of messages aimed at picky educated women. Heres an excerpt from one titled, Leftover Women Do Not Deserve Our Sympathy.'
11:45 < nmz787> Pretty girls do not need a lot of education to marry into a rich and powerful family. But girls with an average or ugly appearance will find it difficult. These girls hope to further their education in order to increase their competitiveness. The tragedy is, they dont realize that as women age, they are worth less and less. So by the time they get their MA or Ph.D, they are already old  like yellowed pearls.
11:46 <@kanzure> who wrote that?
11:46  * Guest40461 likes his women old, like yellowed pearls
11:46 < nmz787> 'The Chinese population planning policy used to officially have a law promoting eugenics; they actually had the word eugenics in the name, she says. Now theyve changed it, because they recognize thats kind of offensive. But thats what the family planning policy is.'
11:46 <@kanzure> who says they were trying to increase their competitiveness, anyway?
11:46 -!- eleitl2 [root@helium.ativel.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
11:47 <@kanzure> eleitl2: welcome back
11:47 < eudoxia> wb
11:47 < nmz787> eleitl2: seen the chinese eugenics piece http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/china-leftover-women/
11:47 < eleitl2> rehi
11:47 < nmz787> ?
11:48 < eleitl2> yes, china is still fucked up
11:48 < nmz787> well its eugenics to increase educated people's genes
11:48 < nmz787> is that such bad pressure?
11:48 <@kanzure> that's a misunderstanding of biology
11:48 < eleitl2> ashkenazi took a few hundred years, so I wish them good luck
11:48 <@kanzure> there's no way to "increase genes" in a person
11:48 < nmz787> better than football camp
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11:49 < xx> what is with this new shitty trend where people think intelligence is in your genes and only stupid people are breeding
11:49 < eleitl2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence
11:49 < Guest40461> its not that only stupid people are breeding
11:49 < xx> and so you must save humanity and bless us with your own contribution to the gene pool
11:49 < Guest40461> stupid people just breed a lot more than smart people
11:50 <@kanzure> xx: many people forget to realize that nobody understands intelligence. so they like to grasp at straws.
11:50 < Guest40461> and intelligence is in your genes because dna creates your brain
11:50 < eleitl2> after a few hundred years you might have a slight problem
11:50 < xx> >.> i can see that kanzure
11:50 <@kanzure> Guest40461: epigenetics yo
11:50  * Guest40461 googles
11:50 < eleitl2> but the genetic kinetics is really slow, so you can stop worrying
11:50 <@kanzure> Guest40461: nature/nurture, blah blah blah
11:50 < xx> the retarded statement being spewed are reaching critical levels
11:50 < nmz787> xx: it's not just in the genes
11:50 < xx> no shit
11:51 < xx> sherlock
11:51 < Guest40461> kanzure: nuturing doesn't makes you smarter, it just makes you less likely to kill people
11:51 < Guest40461> nrture*
11:51 < Guest40461> fuck
11:51 < xx> gtfo
11:51 <@kanzure> haha
11:51 < xx> Epigenetics effects fuck all your genetical predisposition
11:51 < eleitl2> I don't see how genetics will have much time to play out
11:52 < nmz787> being smart requires nature and/or nurture...
11:52 < nmz787> if you have shitty hardware in a shitty situation you won't get far
11:52 < eleitl2> we're not going to stay around the way we're doing in a few hundred years, regardless whether we go
11:52 < xx> lets all have social darwinism and forcefully castrate all dumb people started with Guest40461
11:52 < xx> starting*
11:52 < xx> >.>
11:52 < nmz787> good hardware in a shitty situation, you might do OK, maybe not
11:53 <@kanzure> the level of insight in this conversation is basically zero
11:53 < xx> new flash: genes dont make your harware
11:53 < nmz787> good hardware in a good situation, you'll be genius or a snob
11:53 < nmz787> ...
11:53 < Guest40461> xx: http://dust-warfare.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/come-at-me-bro-anteater.jpg
11:53 < nmz787> hardware begets hardware
11:53 < eleitl2> Bioethicist Arthur Caplan criticizes Kim's decision
11:53 < nmz787> apes aren't producing geniuses
11:54 < eleitl2> somebody put that idiot out of his misery
11:54 < eleitl2> http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/futureoftech/student-gets-dying-wish-reddit-cryonic-preservation-1B8038221
11:54 < eleitl2> the arrogance of the bastard
11:55 < nmz787> eleitl2: is the ashkenazi story really reflective of pure pressure on intelligence?
11:55 <@kanzure> what is pure pressure?
11:55 <@kanzure> as opposed to pressure?
11:55 < nmz787> well they were selecting for their own
11:55 < nmz787> not for ANY genetics with HIGH high intelligence/capability
11:56 < eleitl2> how funny that the Nazis tried their blood and race thing, while holocausting those who actually made a crack at it
11:56 < nmz787> and the capability desired to improve is going to be subjective
11:56 < nmz787> that's also not really applicable
11:57 < nmz787> i practive eugenics by chosing to mate with a smart girl, not a dumb one
11:57 < nmz787> i don't nazi-fy up the place
11:57 <@kanzure> that's stupid nmz787
11:57 < nmz787> why?
11:57 <@kanzure> because you know better than that
11:57 < nmz787> ?
11:57 <@kanzure> you can directly manipulate your genome
11:57 <@kanzure> hoping that your mate has the genes or alleles that you want is completely bogus
11:57 < nmz787> right, but I don't know what to manipulate
11:58 <@kanzure> uh, you can read. i am sure you can find the things you want.
11:58 <@kanzure> i have confidence that this is a solvable problem for you
11:58 < eudoxia> >“Friends are gone. No one is there. I would worry you quickly become isolated and depressed.”
11:58 < eudoxia> they can sign up too or you can make new friends
11:58 < eudoxia> you autist
11:58 < nmz787> it's not bogus that she posseses traits i am fond of and that are working well
11:58  * Guest40461 invokes godwins law
11:58 < eleitl2> these bioethicists seem to be all damaged people
11:58 < nmz787> she for instance doesn't have a fucked/nonexistant sleep schedule
11:58 <@kanzure> Guest40461: you can't invoke godwin's law after a lag. we already moved on.
11:58 < eleitl2> Godwin's Law doesn't work the way you think it works
11:58 < nmz787> pretty sure that's genetic to some extent
11:59  * Guest40461 invokes tyler's law
11:59 < nmz787> but i'm also selecting her wetware config for good sleep
11:59 < nmz787> since i didnt get that
11:59 < Guest40461> which says i can invoke godwins whenever i feel like it
11:59 <@kanzure> nmz787: well, just remember that genetics isn't a mystery and that you can actually investigate these things. instead of just hoping genes are "good" or "bad" or leaving it to chance.
12:00 < eleitl2> gene kinetics in populations has been treated extensively in 1960s and 1970s
12:00 < nmz787> sure, but with my $ and know-how, I currently can't engineer my offspring with direct manipulation
12:00 <@kanzure> how do you figure about the know how part?
12:01 <@kanzure> and as for money, have you figured how much it would cost to do.. whatever it is you are hoping to do?
12:01 < nmz787> but in the time i can learn to do that, I can also raise 2 or 3 'experiments' with old sex
12:01 < nmz787> yeah we've talked a lot about nuclear transfer on diybio and the equip needed
12:01 <@kanzure> eudoxia: who were you quoting?
12:02 < eudoxia> the article eugen linked to
12:02 < eleitl2> that bioethicist failure of a human
12:02 < nmz787> plus there's the whole precision editing thing that is still be worked out
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12:02 <@kanzure> nmz787: true, editing is still a pain
12:02 < eleitl2> even if you can edit perfectly, you must know what you splice in
12:02 < nmz787> right
12:02 < eleitl2> it's not exactly all labeled, and parametrized in there
12:03 <@kanzure> nobody said it was
12:03 < eleitl2> no point in engineering humans
12:03 < eleitl2> too little, too slow
12:03 <@kanzure> i hear that patri friedman had some genetics work done on his kiddo before they put the embryo in a surrogate
12:03 < eleitl2> if the future is collapse, you can't even engineer anymore
12:03 < nmz787> i've also heard that mixing with ethnicities very distant from yours is best-of-both worlds in terms of VDJ recombination regions
12:04 <@kanzure> i think surrogate pregnancies are one of the greatest inventions ever
12:04 < eleitl2> mutts = hybrid vigor
12:04 <@kanzure> i also suspect that someone is paying for surrogate pregnancies from donor eggs without having a mate
12:04 < eleitl2> amara graps' kid is from a donor egg
12:05 < eleitl2> she's in latvia now
12:05 < nmz787> kanzure i need to make a quick frontend for matplotlib
12:05 <@kanzure> nmz787: i'm pretty sure one exists. you should go check.
12:05 < nmz787> i want to have a open file dialog
12:06 < nmz787> this is for the openSpectrometer software
12:06 <@kanzure> have you picked a python/gui framework yet? like qt/wxwidgets/gtk?
12:06 < nmz787> i got the data browser from an example
12:06 < eleitl2> somebody should build a really cheap NMR spectrometer, and a GC/MS to boot
12:06 < nmz787> well matplotlib or some tool it includes uses qt
12:06 < eleitl2> that would rock quite hard
12:06 < nmz787> and portablepython inclues all that and some more libs
12:07 <@kanzure> qt is a fine choice, there's a qt gui design tool that you should know about
12:07 < nmz787> glade?
12:07 < nmz787> or is that different
12:07 <@kanzure> uh it's related
12:07 <@kanzure> i forget the name of the qt-design tool. damn.
12:07 < eudoxia> glade is for gtk
12:07 <@kanzure> ah fuck
12:07 < eudoxia> kanzure: qt designer
12:07 < xx> wait so cryonics preservation aint legit?
12:07 < nmz787> should i just have buttons, or a file drop down menu too?
12:08 <@kanzure> xx: nobody has successfully revived an animal from suspension
12:08 <@kanzure> nmz787: i think you should have a command line interface. never treat your users as stupid.
12:08 < eudoxia> although Darwin came pretty close with the Enkidu dog
12:08 < eudoxia> well, moderately
12:08 <@kanzure> your goal is to be a billion times better than all the proprietary shit out there
12:08 <@kanzure> and they all have shitty guis
12:08 <@kanzure> so your goal should be to avoid that mistake
12:08 < eleitl2> I've seen the 14 min dog, it was completely normal
12:09 <@kanzure> eleitl2: you know about nmz787's spectrometer project?
12:09 < eleitl2> it's surprising how many dogs you have to kill before you have a working process
12:09 < eleitl2> no, kanzure. I'm new here.
12:09 <@kanzure> http://openspectrometer.com/
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12:10 < eleitl2> it's grating based?
12:10 < nmz787> yeah
12:10 <@kanzure> nmz787: one way to write the software would be as a local server. then the gui would talk to the server, and there could be command line tools that talk to the server too. the ui can be interchangeable.
12:10 < nmz787> concave aberration corrected
12:11 <@kanzure> nmz787: i'd be happy to write this for you
12:11 < eleitl2> there's the Michelson interferometer route, ever considered that?
12:11 < nmz787> kanzure: well i considered some javascript plotting libs, and matplotlib looks pretty darn nice
12:11 <@kanzure> 'cause it's an important component and it should work, etc.
12:11 < nmz787> but its a litte laggy
12:11 < eleitl2> Fourier transform, but I think it's only for IR
12:12 <@kanzure> well, separation of concerns, right? there should be a fully functional way to get information in/out. then the different front-ends can play with that data.
12:12 < nmz787> eleitl2: interferometers have been considered for metrology/feedback in positioning systems
12:12 < nmz787> fourier spectroscopy doesn't work (well?) in VIS
12:12 < eleitl2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform_spectroscopy <-- this thing
12:13 < nmz787> something about the frequencies being so much higher than IR
12:13 < eleitl2> yeah, but you'll be mostly interested in IR anyway
12:13 < eleitl2> UV and IR, VIS is boring
12:13 < nmz787> kanzure: sure, yeah like now I just have the cleaned up files from the terminal of ONE spectrometer
12:13 <@kanzure> from your spectrometer or something else?
12:14 < nmz787> kanzure: i also have 1 unclean terminal dump, but it has some \r or \n added during the copy-paste i think
12:14 <@kanzure> dos2unix can clean up \r and \n shit
12:14 < nmz787> eleitl2: nah, UV and VIS is very important in biochem
12:14 < eleitl2> I hope somebody does for NMR what you're doing
12:14 <@kanzure> dos2unix crap.dat
12:14 < nmz787> UV esp for DNA quantification
12:14 < nmz787> VIS for fluorescence
12:15 < eleitl2> different application, I'm more interested in identifying small molecules by spectra
12:15 <@kanzure> dna is small-ish :P
12:15 < eleitl2> DNA you mostly look at a gel, that's about it
12:15 <@kanzure> gels are evil though
12:15 < nmz787> lots of fluorophores in the VIS that are easy to buy kits for labelling various cellular species
12:15 < nmz787> eleitl2: nah i'm doind micro and nano channels
12:15 < nmz787> going
12:15 < eleitl2> you need a fluorescence microscope for that
12:15 < nmz787> doing***
12:16 < eleitl2> what do you want to resolve in a small volume?
12:16 < eleitl2> whether a DNA aliquot is coming through?
12:16 < nmz787> resolve?
12:16 < eleitl2> scan
12:16 < eleitl2> look for
12:16 < nmz787> i'm building a DNA synthesizer
12:16 < eleitl2> ok, so you want to clean and separate out a fraction?
12:17 < nmz787> so I will be looking at single molecules with light or electric potential
12:17 < nmz787> that's part of the process
12:17 < eleitl2> nanopore based?
12:17 < nmz787> i'm thinking nanochannel this week
12:18 < eleitl2> same thing
12:18 < nmz787> back the growing molecule into the channel, away from the active chemistry
12:18 < nmz787> sense potential along the axis
12:18 < eleitl2> numerically controlled enzymes, that's what this planet needs
12:18 <@kanzure> indeed
12:19 < nmz787> yeah, that's the other topic at the top of my interests
12:19 < eudoxia> the assembler is basically just a positionally-controlled enzyme
12:19 < eleitl2> well, it's a bit more powerful than that
12:19 < eleitl2> but you can shit out GATTACA at will, that would be just great
12:20 <@kanzure> eleitl2: regarding dna synthesizers,
12:20 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf
12:20 < nmz787> i just applied to PhD
12:20 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf
12:20 < eleitl2> there's a way to do hybrid things, like build an enzyme which can synthesize a cumulene strand continuously
12:20 < nmz787> and will be studying remote control of molecules, or DNA synthesis
12:20 < eleitl2> cool, nmz787
12:20 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher/
12:20 <@kanzure> we were going to build that for the laser cutting
12:20 <@kanzure> but then nmz787 moved and we haven't started up again
12:21 < nmz787> remote control might actually sound more boring, like working on dyes or something
12:21 < eleitl2> do you have videos of your fab setup? you're still in Austin, right?
12:21 < nmz787> but it would in principal be the same underlying concept
12:21 <@kanzure> yes i am in austin, but the setup is weaksauce and uninteresting
12:21 <@kanzure> i am in software mode
12:21 < eleitl2> hm
12:22 <@kanzure> currently i am trying to live up to http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/20120512_008.jpg
12:22 <@kanzure> rather than fabrication facilities.
12:22 < eleitl2> a problem I see with current science is that the rig are high-price and completely magic
12:22 < nmz787> kanzure: acid.txt http://pastebin.com/G057DfXH
12:22 < eudoxia> haha
12:22 <@kanzure> eleitl2: yes, their prices are ridiculous
12:22 < eleitl2> the advantage is that they're dumping the old gear, so that the hobbyists can get it cheaply
12:22 < nmz787> kanzure: that is the cleaned version i made... it's not a bad format to start, but i'm open to making it better
12:22 < eudoxia> that picture has made it to every corner of the internet
12:23 <@kanzure> eleitl2: the problem with old gear is that it usually doesn't work
12:23 < eleitl2> heh
12:23 < nmz787> kanzure: base_original.txt http://pastebin.com/ngqB7Sr8
12:23 < eleitl2> we've got a bear of a heart-lung machine on our hands
12:23 <@kanzure> the los angeles group spent >6 months trying to fix a dna sequencer
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12:24 <@kanzure> at some point it's better to just make someting open source
12:24 <@kanzure> *something
12:24 <@kanzure> old lab equipment is usually undocumented and has to be reverse engineered too
12:24 < nmz787> eleitl2: yes but it's magic!
12:24 < eleitl2> on the long run, open systems will beat closed systems. but I'm dead and buried by the time.
12:24 < strangewarp> [13:22] <@kanzure> currently i am trying to live up to http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/20120512_008.jpg
12:24 < strangewarp> That is an amazingly inspirational image
12:24 <@kanzure> strangewarp: that's jrayhawk's setup.
12:25 < strangewarp> I love it.
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12:25 < eleitl2> my dayjob office looks way worse
12:25 < nmz787> strangewarp: i saw it in person to verify it's reality
12:25 < eleitl2> the boss is bringing in visitors to look at it
12:25 < strangewarp> My music setup isn't as impressive, but it utilizes more K'nex, so I'm living the dream in my own way
12:25 < nmz787> eleitl2: I toured FEI last week
12:25 < eleitl2> FEI?
12:25 < nmz787> eleitl2: they make eScopes that can see 0.5 angstrom
12:26 <@kanzure> they sell fancypants electron microscopes
12:26 < eleitl2> transmission?
12:26 < nmz787> eleitl2: also focused ion beam (FIB) with SEM in same chamber
12:26 < nmz787> yeah the 50 picometer is
12:26 < eleitl2> that is nice, ion beam milling of tissue blocks is the dickens
12:26 < eleitl2> I think that the Atlum thing is a dead end
12:27 < eudoxia> O:
12:27 <@kanzure> why's that?
12:27 < nmz787> the FEI non-dualbeam FIBs are 'older' and prob on secondhand market
12:27 < eleitl2> you have to remove the surface, I thought of fs laser ablation, but ion beam milling looks easier
12:27 < nmz787> but they're so complex, you really need to be an expert
12:27 <@kanzure> eleitl2: 3scan just uses a knife. they image while they cut so that they don't lose information.
12:27 < eleitl2> I think you need to sample regions to submicron resolution
12:27 < nmz787> ion beams are kinda big for cell slicing though
12:27 < eudoxia> eleitl2: is this about how microtomes cause damage ~2 microns into the tissue?
12:28 < nmz787> but yeah they mentioned having a cryo sectioning system
12:28 < eudoxia> and you need to ablate that damaged volume?
12:28 < eleitl2> you don't slice, you vitrifify, and cryosection
12:28 < eleitl2> then you image the mm^3 blocks, or so
12:28 < eleitl2> vitrify, even.
12:28 < eleitl2> your problem is that vitrification of native tissue is low contrast in EM
12:29 < eleitl2> so you probably have to use a different imaging modality, probably a proximal probe
12:29 < eleitl2> unless this fixation/embedding thing actually gets validated, which doesn't look likely
12:29 < eleitl2> God, I wish I could just kill pigs or dogs with no questions asked
12:29 < nmz787> i think they used ethane or ethene to vitrify
12:30 < nmz787> something about it not doing something to the water
12:30 < eleitl2> you perfuse, and then vitrify at leisure
12:30 < eleitl2> cooling rates can be low enough with modern stuff
12:30 < nmz787> this was at FEI though
12:30 < eleitl2> if you can load the tissue, you're golden
12:30 < eleitl2> if you don't kill the tissue at that, you're platinum
12:30 < nmz787> so I dunno if they're working with cells or tissue
12:30 < eleitl2> I'm interested in ~l volumes.
12:31 < eleitl2> Fahy is working in rabbit kidney volumes, which are tiny
12:31 < eleitl2> and microsurgery from hell
12:31 < eleitl2> that's one hell of a handicap
12:31 < eleitl2> it seems you have to go to a developing world location, which is unregulated
12:31 < nmz787> 1 what
12:32 < eleitl2> you can do shit in China which will get you arrested here
12:32 < nmz787> or is that an l
12:32 <@kanzure> liter
12:32 < eleitl2> liter, as in about a liter
12:32 <@kanzure> eleitl2 is all metric and likes to use dimensions
12:32 <@kanzure> because dimensions are useful, yo
12:32 < eleitl2> are bitchen
12:32 < nmz787> liter is a dimension?
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12:32 < eleitl2> youuuunits
12:32 < nmz787> mm3
12:33 < eleitl2> whole world is metric, US is the special kid here
12:33 < eleitl2> it doesn't give you that much advantage at a high end, but it is sure easy for us pedestrians
12:34 < eleitl2> metric is very easy for highschool kids
12:35 < eleitl2> how would you obtain pigs?
12:35 < nmz787> farmer?
12:35 < nmz787> craigslist
12:35 < eleitl2> they scramble the brains, which is not that bad, but then they bleed them out
12:35 < nmz787> yeah imperial is weird
12:35 < eleitl2> this is Bavaria
12:35 < eleitl2> bleeding them out is right out
12:35 < nmz787> though i know how to estimate driving in miles much better than km
12:36 < nmz787> i do everything else in metric, pretty much
12:36 < eleitl2> mpg is just the worst metric ever
12:36 < eleitl2> is it even legal to have your animals slaughtered by a butcher?
12:36 < nmz787> kanzure: so how do i add command line arg parsing
12:36 < eleitl2> the law is funny that way
12:37 <@kanzure> nmz787: argparse
12:37 <@kanzure> http://docs.python.org/2/howto/argparse.html
12:37 < eleitl2> if you want to grill it, it's a-ok. but experimentes. no way in hell.
12:37 <@kanzure> nmz787: but let's take a few moments to think about how the software should theoretically work?
12:37 < eleitl2> local animal activists shut down dog experiments
12:37 <@kanzure> how does it currently work? i mean where does it get data from.
12:37 < eleitl2> it's all down to mice and rats these days
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12:38 < nmz787> well right now i am working on ph calculation so i was thinking either using a config file with sections for acid base and bufer data... or having cmdline args like --ph acid1.txt acid2.txt acid3.txt base1 base2 base3 buffer1 buffer2 buffer3
12:38 < eleitl2> I tried to obtain euthanized dog cadavers from a friend vet, but most owners have them cremated
12:38 <@kanzure> nmz787: this is for the spectrometer right?
12:38 <@kanzure> eleitl2: transcranial ultrasound of mouse motor cortex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGEP6iWLsvQ
12:38 < nmz787> yes
12:39 <@kanzure> nmz787: ok where does acid1.txt come from?
12:39 < eleitl2> so if you want to obtain a cadaver, with full written consent of an owner, you'd be luckier to go shoot a unicorn
12:39 < nmz787> but ph is a simple use case
12:39 < nmz787> those two pastebin lins
12:39 < nmz787> links
12:39 <@kanzure> nmz787: yeah but how did you get those files?
12:39 < nmz787> i pasted them from windows terminal
12:39 < nmz787> they came from the spectrometer via USB 2 serial
12:39 < eleitl2> how much energy are they dumping into the mouse?
12:40 < nmz787> one is what the terminal looked like, the other is one i cleaned up (they are different data)
12:40 <@kanzure> well i know it's <1 MHz so uh.. probably less than J/mm^2
12:40 <@kanzure> nmz787: ok. so in a perfect world i don't think having to manually paste that makes any sense?
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12:40 < eleitl2> does it fry them on the middle run?
12:40 <@kanzure> eleitl2: nope i don't think they did any frying.
12:41 < nmz787> kanzure:  i thought of having this as a config file for the experiment http://pastebin.com/7gyFweH3
12:41 < nmz787> kanzure: right, but parsing the spectrometer output is one thing, aside from doing work on the data
12:41 <@kanzure> so you would do something like ./run-spectrometer-data-listening-server-thing --config=config.that.file.txt ?
12:42 < nmz787> since there are lots of spectrometers out there, the import should be disconnected
12:42 <@kanzure> ok so you want to make a generic framework for all sorts of lousy spectrometers
12:42 <@kanzure> a sensible thing to do
12:42 < nmz787> so that config file is for the ph experiment
12:42 < nmz787> those files would have to be designated with the right file name at the time of the experiment
12:43 < nmz787> i.e. acid base buffer.txt
12:43 < eleitl2> what we need is more medical hobbyists. it's pretty much a white spot on the map.
12:43 <@kanzure> is this for analysis or collection?
12:43 < nmz787> so the unclean pastebin is what the parser needs to be based on, for collection
12:44 < nmz787> the clean data format doesn't include all the info that spectrometer spit out
12:44 < nmz787> because i was lazy
12:44 <@kanzure> ok when i think of collection, i think of "hey, you don't need to install shitty windows software anymore to run your spectrometer. you can just run nmz787's thing which has a plugin for your shit spectrometer hardware. it handles everything for you, and then you can play with the data in python or run a pre-existing function on it."
12:44 < nmz787> but at least that data in the clean file, is required to do a ph experiment
12:45 < nmz787> kanzure: sure that would be great, it would probably ask you wheter you wanted a file per reading, or multiple readings in a file
12:46 < nmz787> then ask for the file name
12:46 < nmz787> and continue asking for file names, if you want that
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12:46 < nmz787> (ask for filename, wait for reading to finish, save file, next step)
12:47 < nmz787> if you wanted multi-spectra files, then a button saying 'stop' would just be displayed
12:47 <@kanzure> hmm i'd like to avoid making up a custom file format
12:48 < nmz787> i dunno if there's anything out there though
12:48 <@kanzure> last time i used a nanodrop, the data could be exported to csv, but the software had its own terrible file format too :(
12:48 < nmz787> hmm
12:48 < nmz787> well, if you make all the variables labelled nicely
12:48 < nmz787> someone should be able to write whatever save format they want
12:49 < nmz787> after the fact by modding the code
12:49 <@kanzure> well i was thinking this would be a python library that we could distribute by http://pypi.python.org/ (the python package index)
12:49 <@kanzure> people would install it via the normal "pip install spectrometerwhatever" or "sudo apt-get install python-spectrometer"
12:50 <@kanzure> then in ipython they could do "experiment = spectrometer.open('my_experiment.csv')"
12:50 <@kanzure> (or something to that effect)
12:50 < nmz787> but that doesnt solve needing a file format
12:50 <@kanzure> definitely
12:50 < nmz787> then for processing
12:51 <@kanzure> then for processing you would have plugins that can handle that generic 'experiment' object
12:51 <@kanzure> so one would calculate ph
12:51 <@kanzure> another would do dna quantification
12:51 < nmz787> i need to load all the spectra, find the max, and show it to the user to make sure it's the right peak (if there are multiple peaks)
12:51 <@kanzure> finding a peak is super easy in python if you have a list of numbers (just do max(mylist))
12:51 < nmz787> then once all the peaks are identified, it's just some math to spit out the ph of the buffer
12:53 <@kanzure> we should email diybio and ask for samples of spectrometer spectra files
12:53 <@kanzure> plus the name of the machine that took the readings
12:54 < eleitl2> how much resolution are you trying to aim for?
12:54 <@kanzure> then we will have a better idea of which data formats need to be supported
12:54 < eleitl2> but your resolution is determined by your hardware, mostly optics
12:54  * brownies scrolls
12:55 < nmz787> eleitl2: are you talking about the openSpectrometer?
12:55 < eleitl2> yes
12:56 < nmz787> I haven't calculated it but around 600nm on 3648 pixels
12:56 < nmz787> this is the grating http://nathanmccorkle.com/pdf/CHGF-001.pdf
12:56 < eleitl2> commercial? source?
12:56 < nmz787> *600nm range over X pixels*
12:56 < brownies> how about... a standard JSON format describing an experiment
12:56 < nmz787> eleitl2: alibaba
12:57 <@kanzure> most spectrometers dump out data in csv or a list of numbers
12:57 <@kanzure> it's not even json
12:57 <@kanzure> json would make sense though
12:57 < eleitl2> I remember a similiar project on Scientific American experiment of the month
12:57 < nmz787> eleitl2: or Richardson in the U.S. for 4-5X price
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13:01 < eleitl2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-Animator <-- how come I've never seen this?
13:04 < brownies> CSV is okay. JSON is preferable. if you use XML i will drive to Oregon and smack you upside the head.
13:04 < Guest40461> its a "cult" film
13:04 < brownies> this thing you put on pastebin is not going to cut it though. it's too magical... too many things that have to be just right with line breaks and so on.
13:04 < Guest40461> ;)
13:05 < nmz787> brownies: which?
13:05 < nmz787> brownies: the 9 line one?
13:06 < nmz787> brownies: or the one with $ signs and such
13:06 < brownies> yeah.
13:07 < nmz787> i was just gonna grab the line after matching with the section title
13:07 <@kanzure> nooo
13:07 <@kanzure> that's not how you parse config files.
13:07 < nmz787> brownies: got a better idea?
13:07 < nmz787> :/
13:07 <@kanzure> there's entire libraries dedicated to parsing config files already
13:07 < nmz787> oh?
13:07 < nmz787> quick
13:07 < nmz787> show me
13:07 < nmz787> cause i'm parsing it on my own now
13:07 <@kanzure> http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=config+files&submit=search
13:08 <@kanzure> sudo pip install anyconfig
13:08 < nmz787> i don't think i have pip
13:08 <@kanzure> configparser, configobj, configo
13:08 <@kanzure> sudo apt-get install python-setuptools
13:08 <@kanzure> sudo easy_install pip
13:08 < nmz787> isn't there anything in this list of libs http://portablepython.com/wiki/PortablePython2.7.3.2
13:09 <@kanzure> you can include other python modules when distributing your code
13:09 < nmz787> you dont just recommend one of them?
13:10 <@kanzure> ah neat there's one that's in the default standard library for python
13:10 <@kanzure> http://docs.python.org/library/configparser.html
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13:13 < eleitl2> Witnesses on the ground and in the airplane stated that they saw the mechanic on the outboard side of the engine stand up, step into the inlet hazard zone, and become ingested into the intake of the engine. This occurred about 90 seconds into the 70-percent-power engine run. The mechanic was not wearing any type of safety equipment or lanyard to prevent the ingestion. Upon sensing a buffet, the captain immediately retarded the power lever back to the
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13:23 <@kanzure> that's metal.
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13:37 < nmz787> kanzure: brownies how bout this for a data file http://pastebin.com/7Er70tL6
13:38 <@kanzure> i would prefer json
13:38 < nmz787> this is using that configparser
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13:38 <@kanzure> max is 250nm in that file?
13:38 <@kanzure> or 0.25 nm?
13:39 < nmz787> looks like lambda max is in mid or low 400s nm
13:39 < nmz787> 0.25 is the ADC value
13:39 <@kanzure> it would be nice to be more explicit about which units are used where. i suppose you could just say all spectrometers will report in nm anyway.
13:40 <@kanzure> ah.
13:40 < nmz787> it's not nm though
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13:40 <@kanzure> btw if you're not familiar with json here's what it tends to look like: http://httpbin.org/get
13:40 < nmz787> in this case it seems that it is 0 to 1 scale
13:40 <@kanzure> then you can do json.loads(content) to parse it or json.dumps(objcet)
13:40 <@kanzure> objcet={"key": "value"} in python
13:41 < nmz787> what are the {}
13:41 < nmz787> like args is empty {}
13:41 <@kanzure> do you know about lists in python? []
13:41 <@kanzure> in python, {} are dictionaries (dict)
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13:42 <@kanzure> mydict = {"key": "value"}; mydict["key2"] = "value2"]; mydict.keys() is ["key", "key2"], mydict.values() is ["value", "value2"], etc..
13:43 < brownies> yeah listen to kanzure
13:44 < brownies> you have to be explicit about all this stuff like units, expected fields, etc, if you want to make something reusable
13:47 < nmz787> so you can have lists in lists and dicts in dicts in json?
13:47 <@kanzure> yes. you can also have strings and integers in json.
13:49 < nmz787> do i need to put numbers in quotes?
13:49 < nmz787> ints vs decimals different?
13:49 <@kanzure> try it out
13:49 <@kanzure> you shouldn't have to quote integers
13:49 < nmz787> should I?
13:50 < nmz787> i mean, ethically
13:50 <@kanzure> if you don't quote them, they will be interpreted by json parsers as integers. which i think is what you want.
13:50 < nmz787> so i can do { "datapoints": [1,2,3,4,5]}
13:51 <@kanzure> yes
13:51 < nmz787> { "datapoints": [1.1,2.2,3.3,4.4,5.5]}
13:51 < nmz787> or do they need to be in quotes?
13:51 < nmz787> since theyre not whole
13:51 <@kanzure> try it out: import json; json.loads("[1.1, 1.2]")
13:52 < nmz787> ok
13:52 < nmz787> works
13:52 < nmz787> but i can't be sure it's a float or double, can I?
13:53 < nmz787> or will it choose a double if it needs that precision on the fly?
13:53 < nmz787> to avoid data loss
13:53 <@kanzure> not sure. try it out again. scipy has some things for dealing with large numbers though if you need that.
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13:56 <@kanzure> aww
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14:08 <@kanzure> ha ha https://github.com/gomachan/dotfiles/tree/master/.ssh
14:08 <@kanzure> heh https://github.com/search?q=aws+secret&type=Code&ref=searchresults
14:11 < chris_99> heh thankfully most of the aws ones seem blank
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14:19 < Guest40461> i didn't learn until recently that null is a json data type
14:19 < Guest40461> makes sense though
14:19 <@kanzure> json is the wrong choice for things that require a schema.. but python with units is already funky in the first place.
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14:19 <@kanzure> sympy has a module that provides physical units
14:20 < Guest40461> i like json for serialization of hashmaps and xml for tree structures
14:20 <@kanzure> that seems somewhat arbitrary.
14:21  * Guest40461 agrees
14:21 < Guest40461> :)
14:21 < brownies> you can require your JSON to conform to a spec/schema, but it does have the luxurious feature of letting you add "columns" to your schema without breaking any parsers
14:26 <@kanzure> within a few moments of turning on mitmproxy on my residential connection, i get hundreds of requests..
14:26 <@kanzure> it seems to be something using realmedia.com over http
14:26 <@kanzure> it seems more like a system designed to track which proxies are available
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15:20 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed400027r
15:20 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20Real%20Costs%20of%20Publishing%20the%20.pdf
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16:16 < panax> http://gizmodo.com/5978304/theres-a-math-formula-that-tells-us-how-long-everything-will-live?utm_source=jalopnik.com&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=recirculation
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16:38 < nmz787> kanzure: is there anything like numpy for javascript?
16:38 < nmz787> i can't figure out how to add a simple OK or Next button to matplotlib
16:39 <@kanzure> well you would probably write a wrapper around matplotlib in qt
16:39 <@kanzure> http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2008/08/01/matplotlib-with-wxpython-guis/
16:39 <@kanzure> http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2009/01/20/matplotlib-with-pyqt-guis/
16:39 < nmz787> yeah
16:39 < nmz787> i saw that
16:40 < nmz787> its not really very nice looking
16:40 <@kanzure> but no there's nothing like numpy for javascript really..
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16:41 <@kanzure> what developers usually do is they pass data from javascript to the server where numpy is running, then the numpy magic happens, then the javascript polls an endpoint and waits for a result.
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16:53 <@kanzure> http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130123-hacking-genes-in-humble-settings?selectorSection=science-environment
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17:29 < balrog> anyone here have access to http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/AMIS/S35213.html ?
17:29 < balrog> (paywalls suck)
17:31 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/AMIS/S35213.html
17:31 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ea36a218ee1d370ddb6a979b39a15589.txt
17:31 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.chipdocs.com/pnsearch/download.html?okwd=S35213&partid=1748829
17:31 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/357be250dff67866bfb7d18e52484a5f.txt
17:32 <@kanzure> nope.
17:37 < balrog> never mind...
17:37 < balrog> they lifted it from a databook that's on bitsavers
17:37 < balrog> :<
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17:54 < panax> http://www.edge.org/conversation/geoffrey-west
17:56 < yashgaroth> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1350946200000021
17:56 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Molecular%20evolution%20of%20vertebrate%20visual%20pigments.txt
17:57 < yashgaroth> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ShoppingCartURL&_method=add&_eid=1-s2.0-S1350946200000021&originContentFamily=serial&_origin=article&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_userid=10&_ts=1358992524&md5=cea1ff28fca58f4ce4f3ace46b4da3a1
17:57 <@kanzure> you have to tell paperbot explicitly for things that might fail
17:57 < yashgaroth> uh
17:57 <@kanzure> because otherwise paperbot would say lots of error messages every time a link might fail
17:57 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ShoppingCartURL&_method=add&_eid=1-s2.0-S1350946200000021&originContentFamily=serial&_origin=article&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_userid=10&_ts=1358992524&md5=cea1ff28fca58f4ce4f3ace46b4da3a1
17:58 < paperbot> IndexError: list index out of range (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 176, in download_url)
17:58 <@kanzure> oh interesting
18:00 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=f7d7eaa6 Bryan Bishop: fail less catastrophically for a weird sciencedirect url
18:00 < gnusha> paperbot: reload papers
18:00 < paperbot> gnusha: <module 'papers' from '/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py'> (version: 2013-01-24 02:00:37)
18:01 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MiamiImageURL&_cid=271301&_user=1694017&_pii=S1350946200000021&_check=y&_origin=article&_zone=toolbar&_coverDate=2000--01&view=c&originContentFamily=serial&wchp=dGLbVBA-zSkzS&pid=1-s2.0-S1350946200000021-main.pdf&_valck=1&md5=88f13eada21f89ebaf86f97f1a73a2da&ie=/sdarticle.pdf
18:01 < paperbot> IndexError: list index out of range (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 176, in download_url)
18:03 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=8b3abe92 Bryan Bishop: possibly better sciencedirect handling
18:03 < gnusha> paperbot: reload papers
18:03 < paperbot> gnusha: <module 'papers' from '/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py'> (version: 2013-01-24 02:03:09)
18:03 <@kanzure> well now sciencedirect says "Unable to connect to a Webc copy!"
18:03 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5cfe6fbe3c75f55e24cba7fcfff43c06.txt
18:09 <@kanzure> i wonder what webc is
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18:29 <@kanzure> jmil was around? oops. juri_ you're supposed to hit him up.
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20:28 <@kanzure> https://github.com/quantopian/zipline "Zipline is a financial backtester for trading algorithms written in Python. The system is fundamentally event-driven and a close approximation of how live-trading systems operate."
20:29 <@kanzure> they seem to be running an "algorithmic trading" platform-as-a-service thing: https://www.quantopian.com/
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20:44 <@kanzure> there's certainly some weird things going on at github
20:44 <@kanzure> https://github.com/antoniovazquezblanco <-- this guy seems to auto-post issues from crashes from his android app?
20:44 <@kanzure> https://github.com/KhanBugz?tab=contributions <-- khan academy seems to post all bugs automatically too
20:44 <@kanzure> https://github.com/michaelni?tab=contributions <-- and this guy just seems to be a very active ffmpeg developer
20:46 <@kanzure> https://github.com/madsen <-- seems to push cpan data regularly
20:46 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kwrobot <-- avogadro/kitware/vtk things, also high activity
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21:17 < nmz787> kanzure: is there a way to use *args in multiples? i.e. 3 args or 6 args or 9 args
21:18 < nmz787> or do i just check the len(args)%3
21:18 < nmz787> der
21:20 <@kanzure> i suggest trying to stick with zero, one or at most two positional arguments..
21:21 < nmz787> huh?
21:21 <@kanzure> positional vs. keyword arguments
21:22 <@kanzure> positional arguments tend to be bad because you forget what they are
21:22 < nmz787> ahh but in this case it repeats
21:23 < nmz787> nevermind
21:23 <@kanzure> but couldn't you just write a loop around calling the program?
21:23 < nmz787> i'm just gonna pass *args along to the next function
21:23 <@kanzure> oh this is for functions
21:23 < nmz787> matplotlib has some lame button toolbar that isn't easily customized
21:23 < nmz787> which means i've been spending like 6 hours learning how to build a gui around it
21:23 <@kanzure> yes, you can pass *args and **kwargs along by typing whatever(**kwargs)
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23:40 <@kanzure> u-metacognition: welcome back
23:41 < u-metacognition> Thanks
23:58 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/news/billion-euro-brain-simulation-and-graphene-projects-win-european-funds-1.12291
23:58 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f91d73e31d71c176d8cd14f131e6c1fe.txt
23:58 <@kanzure> well anyway, i'm glad markram got the funding
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--- Log closed Thu Jan 24 00:00:39 2013