--- Log opened Sun Feb 03 00:00:49 2013 00:02 <@kanzure> is it just me or is that pdf horribly typeset? 00:03 <@kanzure> it is approaching hard to read 00:03 -!- gene_hacker_ [~chatzilla@70.113.84.191] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:03 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-70-113-84-191.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:03 -!- gene_hacker_ is now known as gene_hacker 00:05 <@kanzure> here's what i see: 00:05 <@kanzure> http://heybryan.org/shots/2013-02-03-0202-interphase-chromosomes-typesetting.png 00:10 <@kanzure> nmz787: what time will you be around tomorrow if david treadwell would stop by? he has lots of photopolymer experience. 00:10 <@kanzure> i think he did n>2 postdocs for whatever reason. 00:12 < nmz787> lol 00:12 < nmz787> umm 00:12 < nmz787> i will probably be here around noon PST (3PM EST) 00:13 <@kanzure> that's a bit early for us in texas, especially since he's up now 00:13 <@kanzure> actually, why doesn't he just show up now 00:25 < gene_hacker> if you're looking to do micro-scale stereolithography, I've got a couple references for you 00:25 < nmz787> ok cool 00:25 <@kanzure> go for it 00:26 < gene_hacker> for now check this out: 00:26 < gene_hacker> http://utwired.engr.utexas.edu/lff/symposium/proceedingsArchive/pubs/Manuscripts/2009/2009-68-Choi.pdf 00:26 < gene_hacker> might be a bit more than what you want to do 00:27 < gene_hacker> also what resin are you using? 00:27 < gene_hacker> do you know your resin parameters 00:30 < nmz787> i might use 1,6 hexanediol acrylate, which has a few papers published 00:30 < nmz787> or just some random hobbyist recommended stuff 00:31 < gene_hacker> why don't you just buy some stereolithography resin? 00:32 < nmz787> like? 00:32 < nmz787> that's what i meant by hobbyist stuff 00:32 < gene_hacker> another must read 00:32 < gene_hacker> http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~yongchen/Research.htm 00:33 < nmz787> the company said this stuff http://www.solarez.com/productsnew/fly_tie_uv_resin_thin.html 00:33 < gene_hacker> can't find any of his papers on micro stuff, though I've seen micro parts from his team 00:33 <@kanzure> "Rapid Manufacturing in Mintues" mintues.. 00:33 < nmz787> is pretty similar to this http://www.solarez.com/productsnew/uv3d_printing.html 00:34 < gene_hacker> Perfactory SI500 00:34 < gene_hacker> or similiar should be good 00:35 <@kanzure> "Fabrication of Conformal Ultrasound Transducer Arrays and Horns based on Multi-axis CNC Accumulation" 00:35 <@kanzure> "Ultrasonic imaging is an important medical imaging technique. It uses ultrasound over 20K Hz to detect and visualize muscles, tendons, and many internal organs." 00:35 <@kanzure> "Previous studies have shown that an improved acoustic performance can be achieved by conformal ultrasound transducer arrays and horns that can wrap conformably around curved surfaces." 00:35 <@kanzure> well that's neat. 00:35 < nmz787> really the resin shouldn't matter since i'm not depending on it for more than a mold 00:36 < gene_hacker> yeah you could use that resin, it's just that you'll have to determine the parameters for it 00:36 < nmz787> the hexanediacrylate is nice in that I know exactly what it is 00:36 < gene_hacker> yeah I guess you're only making something in 2d 00:36 < nmz787> so for that i might actually be able to use it as-is for a microfluidic part 00:37 < nmz787> whereas the off-the-shelf stuff is all secret formulations 00:37 < nmz787> so i can't be sure how the hell it will react 00:37 < gene_hacker> the secret formula isn't all that secret 00:37 < nmz787> they're all closed 00:37 < gene_hacker> it's based on one of two polymer chemistries or a mix 00:38 < nmz787> with MSDSs saying '10-40% of X, 60-90% Y) 00:38 < nmz787> just since i started looking yesterday i've seen at least 3 or 4 different types of monomer being applied 00:38 < nmz787> in the off-the-shelf types 00:38 < nmz787> but anyway, like I said, that shouldnt matter much 00:40 < gene_hacker> and of course you've got nasty photoinitiators too 00:40 < nmz787> they're usually pretty low concentration though 00:41 < gene_hacker> which might cause problem if they seep out, they're made to produce free radicals, and are known to slowly degrade stereolithographic parts left in the sun too long 00:42 < nmz787> ahh, huh 00:51 < nmz787> ttyl tomoro 00:53 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@70.113.84.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:55 <@kanzure> http://www.downeu.net/ seems to have methods in molecular biology on random file upload sites 00:57 <@kanzure> http://bookova.com/ would be better if it didn't have rails errors everywhere 01:03 -!- u-metacognition [~metacogni@99-7-58-96.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:08 <@kanzure> http://traumlibrary.net/ 01:08 <@kanzure> "raum Library (Библиотека Траума) - это локальная (то есть предназначенная находиться на жестком диске вашего компьютера) библиотека, появившаяся на Рутрекере (тогда еще torrents.ru) в 2008 году путем объединения архива Либрусека c одной из существовавших в то в 01:08 <@kanzure> "В дальнейшем были обработаны все доступные на трекере сборки и архивы fb2 книг и отслеживались обновления всех основных fb2-библиотек в сети. Вероятно, является наиболее полным (на дату последнего обновления) структурированным собранием доступных 01:08 <@kanzure> "В библиотеке версии 2.31 - 173.549 книг (файлов) общим объемом 125.03 Gb." 01:09 <@kanzure> 125 GB is a little on the low end.. Либрусека itself is 12 TB now. 01:13 <@kanzure> ah neat i think this is where libgen was originally announced? http://torrent.rus.ec/viewtopic.php?t=10210 01:14 <@kanzure> and Либрусек(a?) torrent announcements are here http://torrent.rus.ec/viewforum.php?f=186 01:16 <@kanzure> "Объем всех торрентов: 63,077 TB" .... yeah. 01:17 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:19 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@pool-96-231-37-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:24 <@kanzure> pfft windows/mac only http://www.gbooksdownloader.com/ 01:28 <@kanzure> lots of biology books, not sure if this is an old torrent http://ihtik.lib.ru/2012.03_ihtik_biology/ 01:28 <@kanzure> there's only 4 "methods in molecular biology" books in that list (i guess it's my litmus test) 01:28 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:29 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:36 <@kanzure> "science video search engine" http://sciencehack.com/ except none of the biology-related searches i've tried have returned anything. youtube gives better results, yeesh. 01:37 -!- timClicks [~tim@121.99.43.12] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:37 <@kanzure> timClicks: hello 01:37 < timClicks> kanzure: hi 01:37 <@kanzure> what brings you here? 01:37 < timClicks> saw this channel on the DIYbio Google group 01:37 <@kanzure> okie dokie 01:38 < timClicks> specifically this thread, "[DIYbio] Google+ hangout tonight ( 02 Feb 2013 )" 01:38 <@kanzure> well, check the /topic and logs are http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-02-02.log and http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-02-03.log 01:53 < timClicks> thanks kanzure :) 02:00 < rigel> http://pastebin.com/HJRVzksB 02:00 < rigel> i have no idea how to fucking fix this 02:00 < rigel> help me 02:00 < rigel> because the bluez fuckasses wont 02:02 -!- favetelinguis [zwoop@202-154-137-231.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:07 < gnusha_> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=963ac2d7 Bryan Bishop: reduce clutter: move my notes into users/kanzure/ 02:08 <@kanzure> rigel: what device is this? some bluetooth thing? 02:08 < rigel> yep 02:08 < rigel> i went into #bluez-users and they finally told me to run a sniffer while i did all this other shit 02:09 < rigel> which was not apparent from ANY OTHER FUCKING WEBSITE ON THE INTERWEBS 02:09 < rigel> so i did that 02:09 < rigel> and got a little indignant when they said i should have done this before 02:09 < rigel> like how the shit am i supposed to know that 02:09 < rigel> anyway, the one person who was active told me to fuck off as a result 02:10 < rigel> so im clueless 02:10 < rigel> as usual 02:14 * kanzure sleeps 02:22 -!- Hu_Meanan [~quassel@199.48.197.18] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:22 -!- Hu_Meanan [~quassel@199.48.197.18] has quit [Changing host] 02:22 -!- Hu_Meanan [~quassel@unaffiliated/humean] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:50 -!- phm [~anon@78.149.99.176] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:55 -!- phm [~anon@78.149.99.176] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:12 -!- timClicks [~tim@121.99.43.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:45 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:03 -!- Guest24700 is now known as DaZ 04:12 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:48 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:55 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:56 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:39 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:10 -!- ArmilusDajjal is now known as gl00m 06:11 -!- gl00m is now known as mutagen 06:11 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:17 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 06:44 -!- Hu_Meanan [~quassel@unaffiliated/humean] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:11 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:14 -!- cpopell [~cpopell@pool-96-231-37-251.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:33 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:14 < juri_> does anyone here have experience in vacuum chamber construction? 08:19 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:19 -!- ParahSailin [~ropoctl@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:19 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/141/3585/1038.long 08:19 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/3dc211578a6efec51a302440ee911739.txt 08:21 < ParahSailin> that seems like a journal they should have 08:28 -!- ParahSailin [~ropoctl@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 08:45 -!- rafael [~dnm@pdpc/supporter/active/calango] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:00 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: true, but it is also on jstor 09:00 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ae31dd2db8492c041c927bacfdde0246.pdf "Ion-Exchange Removal of Sodium Chloride from Water with Calcium Hydroxide as Recoverable Regenerant" 09:01 <@kanzure> ParahSai1in: ^ 09:04 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:47 -!- seba- [~hel1@cpe-90-157-233-7.static.amis.net] has quit [] 09:58 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:04 -!- EnLilaSko- [~Nattzor@host-85-30-145-65.sydskane.nu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:05 -!- EnLilaSko [~Nattzor@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:12 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: hi 10:12 < yashgaroth> hello 10:43 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-7-88.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 10:47 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-7-88.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:51 -!- timClicks [~tim@121.99.43.12] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:58 -!- timClicks [~tim@121.99.43.12] has quit [Quit: timClicks] 11:18 < jrayhawk> rigel: fwiw there's, like, four simultaneous and mutually incompatible userspace bluetooth interface generations at varying levels of documentation, deprecation, and working functionality; oftentimes i have to go out of my way to make sure the tools i am using are of the (theoretically) proper modern dbus generation. also, sometimes bluetoothd state just gets wedged in funny ways and deletion of ... 11:18 < jrayhawk> ... /var/lib/bluetooth/IN:TE:ER:FA:CE:NA:ME makes things sane again. 11:21 < jrayhawk> the bluez wiki is perpetually down, but it simultaneously documented every different interface generation and thus wasn't all that useful anyway as a result 11:21 < jrayhawk> i tried bugging them for a copy of it to host a year ago but nobody there seems to care 11:25 < jrayhawk> still better than in microsoft-land, at least. over there they're still of the "why implement basic profiles when manufacturers can do that for us?" mentality. 11:25 < jrayhawk> hardware manufacturers are the last people you want touching your operating system 11:26 < ThomasEgi> unless you are lazy, don't give a shit, and drowning in money already 11:28 < nsh> jrayhawk, funfact hardware manufacturers (via firmware) have direct access to the highest security in any intel architecture 11:28 < nsh> something to meditate on when you have too much confidence in computer security 11:30 < archels> people have confidence in computer security? 11:31 <@kanzure> "the highest security".. highest? 11:31 < nsh> kanzure, via the PCI bus you can flash the BIOS 11:31 < jrayhawk> worsy, they can update microcode 11:31 < jrayhawk> worse 11:31 < nsh> right 11:32 <@kanzure> i was just disagreeing with your concept of security height 11:32 < nsh> there is no current envisioned plans to make intel architecture in any way secure 11:32 < nsh> TPM is voluntary 11:32 < nsh> even encrypted filesystem dialogues can be spoofed, etc. 11:32 < jrayhawk> Firewire also has arbitrary DMA 11:32 * nsh nods 11:33 < nsh> it's sad, but video game consoles are about the best platform to run mission critical software on 11:33 < nsh> ok, that's a bit hyperbolic 11:33 < nsh> but not miles away from the truth 11:34 < archels> then there's the Chinese putting hardware backdoors into our microchips 11:34 * jrayhawk feels smug about 'blacklist firewire-ohci' while simultaneously having two open ExpressCard slots 11:34 <@kanzure> for all the talk about backdoors in microprocessors, i haven't seen anyone release a usable backdoor on opencores 11:35 < chris_99> it's be more noticable though if you could see the VHDL 11:35 <@kanzure> so what? it's still worth looking at. 11:36 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:36 <@kanzure> klafka: welcome back 11:36 < klafka> thanks! 11:36 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: could we fix gnusha_ 11:36 <@kanzure> i tried /nick gnusha but for whatever reason it just sent that as a message 11:41 -!- You're now known as gnusha 11:41 < jrayhawk> Yeah, having that socket interface be able to send arbitrary commands seems like a bad idea to me. 11:42 <@kanzure> what is the right way for me to run commands? 11:44 < jrayhawk> dtach -a ~gnusha/irssi.dtach 11:44 < jrayhawk> sudo !! 12:05 <@fenn> chido: have you thought about submitting a logo design for diybio.eu? you really have a talent for it 12:05 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-70-113-84-191.austin.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:06 <@kanzure> gene_hacker: welcome back 12:14 -!- AirmanEpic [43a2fd69@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.162.253.105] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:21 -!- AirmanEpic [43a2fd69@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.162.253.105] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:28 -!- archbox_ [~archbox@unaffiliated/archbox] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:46 -!- sylph_mako [~mako@103-9-42-1.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:57 -!- rafael [~dnm@pdpc/supporter/active/calango] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:57 < juri_> nsh: i control security on my machines. 12:57 < juri_> bios written in C. option roms disabled on all cards. 12:57 -!- ephialtes480 [~ephialtes@141.105.65.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:58 < juri_> yay coreboot supported gear. i'm picky for a reason. 12:58 < juri_> and its because i'm crazy. ;) 12:58 < nsh> coreboot++ 12:58 < nsh> but 12:58 < nsh> no support for 12:58 < nsh> what's it called 12:58 < juri_> serialICE? 12:58 < nsh> one of the code execution protection mechanisms 12:58 < nsh> or disabling SMM 12:58 < nsh> i forget which 12:59 < juri_> coreboot lets you disable SMM code. 12:59 < juri_> some motherboards run with it, some don't. 12:59 < nsh> oh ok, i'm either misremembering or misled 13:00 < juri_> the only non-coreboot gear i run is my laptops.. and they're an older chipset i am still bugging AMD to release docs for. 13:02 < juri_> if i just submitted my system config to a psychologist, i'm sure i could get some diagnosis related to being a control freak. 13:02 < juri_> 100% free software, excepting the firmware run by my hard drives, and monitors. 13:03 < juri_> i suppose its about time for me to implement my own keyboard controllers, as well. 13:04 < nsh> lol 13:04 < nsh> +1 13:04 < nsh> "i look forward to the day the only binary blob on my system is the NSA-installed backdoor" 13:05 < juri_> yepyep. ;) 13:05 < nsh> btw if you want to see cool things done with coreboot (and origin of my confusion) check this talk 13:06 < juri_> i had some GPS devices i have a custom written firmware for, but they're not connected, because i don't want to broadcast my position within 3 cm. ;) 13:06 < nsh> .g hardware backdooring is practical 13:06 < yoleaux> http://www.toucan-system.com/research/blackhat2012_brossard_hardware_backdooring.pdf 13:06 < nsh> no 13:06 < nsh> .g hardware backdooring is practical site:youtube.com 13:06 < yoleaux> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRxDvkKBMTc 13:06 < nsh> .title 13:06 < yoleaux> DEFCON 20: Hardware Backdooring is Practical - YouTube 13:06 < nsh> juri_, good policy :) 13:06 <@kanzure> botspam eww 13:06 < nsh> kanzure, /ignore :) 13:07 <@kanzure> as an admin, /ignore is irresponsible 13:07 <@kanzure> but anyone else is welcome to use it 13:07 * nsh nods, not serious suggestion :) 13:08 < juri_> kanzure? you're an admin here? i just thought you hit people with the banhammer and were generally grumpy. 13:08 < juri_> you don't want to hear my idea about how tweeting can save us all? 13:08 < juri_> its totally meta-zen, man! 13:09 < nsh> lol 13:09 * juri_ takes another toke. 13:10 * nsh decides juri lives at a high latitude 13:10 < juri_> i live with a hippie. too easy to parody. :) 13:11 < nsh> you don't live with a hippie, you co-hovel 13:12 * nsh has traumatic memories of waking up to five-alarm yogurt-weaving sessions 13:13 <@fenn> the thing about hippies is, there's so many of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swami_opening.jpg 13:16 * nsh expects to see an indian river 13:16 < nsh> oh, no river 13:16 < nsh> they probably drank it 13:17 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-70-113-84-191.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21 < nmz787> howdy 13:23 <@kanzure> "after several requests for more details on the gene gun hack I did last summer, I now found the time to write up a little description of the project (see attachment). 13:23 <@kanzure> oops 13:23 < nsh> nmz787, hi 13:23 <@kanzure> "A new professional, hand-held gene gun costs around 15.000€, the hack about 50€." 13:24 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diybio/r%c3%bcdiger-trojok-gene-gun.pdf 13:25 <@kanzure> AAAAHHH source code embedded in a pdf 13:25 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:26 -!- archbox_ [~archbox@unaffiliated/archbox] has quit [Quit: bye] 13:27 <@kanzure> so uh in which reality is 50<15 ? 13:28 < jrayhawk> that period does not mean what you think it means 13:28 <@kanzure> i have a strange urge to sell lots and lots of guns 13:28 < jrayhawk> the correct urge is to hoard guns 13:28 <@kanzure> are background checks necessary for gene guns? since they aren't typical firearms, i suspect the answer is no. 13:29 < yashgaroth> not in texas 13:29 <@kanzure> fantastic 13:29 <@kanzure> "the howitzer of gene guns" 13:30 < nmz787> well i guess lol 13:30 < nmz787> that seems like it could fall under the WMD watch 13:30 < nmz787> 'he's got a howitzer gene gun loaded with his sputum, and he was recently sick!' 13:32 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 13:33 < nmz787> what is plastic foil though 13:33 < nmz787> saran wrap? 13:34 < nsh> try satan wrap, it's devilishly good 13:36 < nmz787> kanzure: so is the photopolymer guy coming in? 13:37 <@kanzure> checking. 13:39 <@kanzure> nmz787: yep, in a moment or two 13:41 < jrayhawk> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17852499 13:41 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5667af420c5364457bcc2b5a26283b2d.txt 13:41 -!- Humean [~quassel@199.48.197.18] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:41 -!- Humean [~quassel@199.48.197.18] has quit [Changing host] 13:41 -!- Humean [~quassel@unaffiliated/humean] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:42 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/apl/cijf/2007/00000059/00000001/art00004 13:42 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/84774f9c090636bec97c6cbed2f5974c.txt 13:43 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: well, i tried. 13:48 <@kanzure> nmz787: give him a few more minutes. 13:48 -!- drtread [467057c0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.112.87.192] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:48 < drtread> aloha @kanzure 13:49 <@kanzure> drtread: howdy 13:50 < nmz787> howdy drtread 13:50 < nmz787> kanzure tells me you may know optics things, and also are keen on photo-curable polymers 13:50 < klafka> what's up with paperbot? 13:51 <@kanzure> klafka: paperbot is sorta hit-or-miss :) 13:51 < klafka> aah 13:51 <@kanzure> klafka: feel free to contribute fixes https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot 13:51 < drtread> i am. 12 years ago, i designed a photo-curable dental composite. never went to market for corporate reasons 13:52 < nmz787> like you invented it for some other company that you didn't control? 13:52 < nmz787> or some mega-tooth corp squashed it? 13:53 < drtread> i was working at a plant that made dental materials, owned by a corporation that didn't give a flip about dental materials. 13:54 < drtread> as a reward, the plant was sold & closed. i've been on my own since. 13:54 < cpopell> would it be possible to cure a photopolymer in real time being extruded slowly from a nozzle? 13:54 < drtread> yes. within certain trade offs. 13:54 < cpopell> I know they've done something similar with a light source on a head within a bath. 13:55 < cpopell> but I was thinking in-air, to slowly draw shapes without supports 13:55 <@kanzure> i think you could get much finer resolution with masks/dlp/mirrors than you could with positional accuracy on a head 13:56 < drtread> air is bad for some of the easier formulations. oxygen kills radical polymerizations, which are the easiest to perform. 13:56 < cpopell> that's a shame, the layerless is what was really nice about the in-bath setup 13:57 < drtread> resolution depends on a lot of things: opacity of the resin is a big one; the energy required to complete the polymerization is, too. 13:57 < drtread> there are other polymerization methods, besides radicals. 13:57 < nmz787> drtread: so use argon? 13:57 < cpopell> (I have no background in SLA, my background is E-Jet) 13:57 < brownies> you could always do it in a closed container without oxygen 13:58 <@kanzure> brownies: but that complicates things a lot :( 13:58 < drtread> argon is expensive; nitrogen is adequate. 13:58 < nmz787> argon is something i need to get anyway for DNA synthesis 13:58 < nmz787> ahh, maybe nitrogen will work 13:58 < brownies> kanzure: well, it complicates them slightly 13:58 < nmz787> whichever is drier (H20 wise) 13:58 < drtread> yes, it complicates things. 13:59 < drtread> H2O should be kept to a minimum, anyway. the monomers can absorb quite a bit, and that will be bad for the resulting polymer. 14:01 < nmz787> so drtread i'm planning on doing something like this http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Three-Dimensional%20Printing%20Using%20a%20Photoinitiated%20Polymer.pdf 14:01 < drtread> most of these formulations are quite viscous. they vary from frozen syrup -- yes, literally molasses in january -- to unfrozen syrup 14:01 < nmz787> except I only need 1 layer about 25-200 microns thick 14:01 < drtread> design delivery method accordingly 14:01 < nmz787> so i am thinking I'll spin-coat the photoresin 14:04 < juri_> um 14:04 < juri_> it might be worth mentioning that i'm currently going over the documentation for one of students' ideas, a 3d printer that prints aluminum via a continuous weld. 14:05 < juri_> bonus: we're doing it in a vacuum chamber. 14:06 < juri_> so, if you're having a problem 3d printing something because of control of light / atmosphere... 14:06 < nmz787> juri_: can't they just use shielding gas? 14:06 < juri_> I would imagine, but i'm not the metalurgist. 14:07 < juri_> http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Fusionreprap 14:07 < juri_> I've got eight pages on this machine i have yet to process. 14:08 < cpopell> juri: I know people working on a system like that 14:08 < cpopell> except multi-material 14:09 < juri_> put them in touch, if they're interested in doing it in the open. we're doing aluminum for reasons of ease, that's all. 14:09 < juri_> the idea is to go multi-material. 14:10 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10 < juri_> I personally want to do carbon fiber printing instead, but... 14:10 < cpopell> juri_ do you have me on facebook? 14:10 < juri_> I do not facebook. 14:11 < drtread> in the last decade, hundreds of monomers have been commercialized for photo polymerization. most of it goes to inks and coatings. http://rahn-group.com/file_uploads/bibliothek/k_51_EnergyCuring/k_52_DocumentsNewsletters/1532_0_rahnproductguideeu12_2012.pdf 14:11 < cpopell> Ah, damn. Do you have me on skype, etc.? 14:11 < juri_> no skype, either. 14:11 < juri_> i'm a free software zealot. ;) 14:11 < juri_> diaspora only. 14:11 < rigel> holy shit what a bunch of turds 14:11 < rigel> http://people.csail.mit.edu/albert/bluez-intro/c404.html 14:11 < rigel> Novice developers requesting documentation on the official mailing lists [1] are typically rebuffed and told to figure out the API by reading through the BlueZ source code. 14:12 < juri_> no wonder my mouse doesn't asspciate with my PC. 14:12 < cpopell> ...linkedin? 14:12 < juri_> cpopell: busted.. but.. i want to get rid of it. 14:13 < juri_> so, i won't have it for more than another month or so. 14:13 < nmz787> drtread: I found this pretty cheap www.solarez.com/productsnew/fly_tie_uv_resin_thin.html 14:14 < nmz787> drtread: 'we have a mixture of monomers including IBOMA and HDDA' 14:14 < nmz787> that's what the seller said along with that link 14:15 < nmz787> hmm IBOMA is a pretty complex molecule 14:15 < juri_> cpoppel: www.linkedin.com/in/julialongtin/ 14:15 < nmz787> well i guess it doesn't matter since I just need it to use as a mold 14:16 < drtread> i looked at that last night. one problem with coating materials is that shrinkage generally isn't a big problem. when a material is confined, as it is in a dental filling or a 3D print, shrinkage is a much bigger problem. 14:16 < drtread> i don't know about this specific product, however. 14:16 < nmz787> coated? 14:17 < nmz787> so you're saying spin-coating then exposing should be fine no matter the exact photoresin materials? 14:18 < nmz787> 'fine' to the extent that it won't take much experimentation to figure out how much it shrinks, if it does 14:19 < cpopell> I don't remember us seeing much shrinking with our micron scale features, nmz 14:19 < cpopell> but I can check with my labmate. 14:19 < cpopell> (we ejetted photopolymers then cured them) 14:20 < drtread> true about measuring the shrinkage. the problem is this: in multi-layer materials, all of the shrinkage in the plane of the layer (X-Y plane) adds up, building stress within the part. Z-axis shrinkage is irrelevant. 14:21 < nmz787> i would imagine it /does/ shrink in the Z 14:21 < nmz787> but that it wouldn't build a stress 14:21 < nmz787> in Z direction 14:21 < cpopell> I seem to remember reading a paper on similar problems in fdm 14:21 < drtread> this is much the same with any 3D printer that extrudes a polymer. 14:21 < cpopell> drtread, do you know the one that tried to model shrink dynamics from a fdm? 14:21 < drtread> it's best to confine all shrinkage to the z direction. 14:22 -!- EnLilaSko- [~Nattzor@host-85-30-145-65.sydskane.nu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:22 < drtread> no; all of the in-depth study i did on the problem was relevant to dental fillings, not 3D printing. 14:22 < drtread> so i plead ignorance here. 14:23 < drtread> in early photo cure fillings, the stress could build up so much that it would crack teeth. it made for some very unhappy patients. 14:24 < cpopell> I can look up the reference if you care. 14:24 < nmz787> drtread: are you still working on dental? I know some folks who were working on 3D scanning of dental castings 14:25 < drtread> please do, cpopell. 14:26 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:26 < drtread> i am not doing any dental work atm. i'm a consultant, and usually work on whatever gets me billable hours. :D 14:26 < drtread> right now, that's the electronics testing industry. 14:28 < drtread> i still have a soft spot in my heart for dental work done in other people's mouths. 14:31 < juri_> do you think the 'bioprinter' people have been talking about lately would have a high enough resolution to print dental prosthetics? 14:33 < nmz787> juri_: the right question is probably what tolerance can dental prosthetics be within of the measured space 14:34 < nmz787> is it half a cell width (~15 microns) 14:34 < nmz787> or can the gums divide a few times to fill in the gap 14:34 < drtread> sure. i'm assuming you're talking about the printers for soft scaffolding that are then filed with cell cultures? the resolution for soft parts doesn't have to be that fine. it's the hard parts that require much closer tolerances. 14:34 < nmz787> cool 14:35 < nmz787> i saw a paper years ago where they pulled a mouse tooth and replaced it with a mouse tooth stem cell from a genetic-identical animal 14:35 < juri_> yep. that's the right question. i was thinking of printing a set of dentures. 14:35 < cpopell> drtread, sent you a message 14:35 < nmz787> and it developed into a pretty normal tooth by just sitting the stem cell in the hole and covering with some goop 14:35 < drtread> i hadn't heard that about the stem cell. excellent. 14:36 < nmz787> cpopell: i would be interested to read about stress too 14:36 < juri_> i wear dentures (and got them when i was 26. the gods truely hate me), and would enjoy having 'vanity' sets in various colours. 14:36 < cpopell> We're revising and updating the paper for private publication, so I'll dig up that reference in the next week. 14:36 < cpopell> I'll also be releasing my masters thesis to y'all for any who care. 14:37 < juri_> whats it about? 14:38 < nmz787> paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0021531 14:38 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Functional%20Tooth%20Regeneration%20Using%20a%20Bioengineered%20Tooth%20Unit%20as%20a%20Mature%20Organ%20Replacement%20Regenerative%20Therapy.pdf 14:38 < drtread> wow. those would be some old references about the stress. at the time, i didn't have kanzure's programs for keeping track of all my... everything 14:38 < nmz787> i can't tell if this is the same group of the paper i was talking about 14:38 < nmz787> but it looks like the field is advancing 14:38 < chris_99> would it be possible to trick the mouth into re-growing teeth 14:39 < nmz787> chris_99: that's kind of what inducing stem cells is about 14:39 < nmz787> chris_99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_pluripotent_stem_cell 14:39 < juri_> pardon me if i sound like a fool, but... 14:39 < nmz787> yashgaroth: might be better to handle this 14:39 < chris_99> aha, im just curious, like how milk teeth fall out then you get new permanent teeth, if you could get the milk teeth to grow again, i'll have a look at that 14:40 < nmz787> chris_99: in 50 years it will be an injection away 14:40 < yashgaroth> who has summoned me 14:40 < juri_> I enjoy not having teeth. they werer a lot of mantinence, and have a non-zero chance of having something wrong, and killing you. 14:40 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: dragon, please grant me immortality 14:40 < yashgaroth> shoot gold at me with your gene gun 14:40 < juri_> i consider dentures that are high quality to be an enhancement. 14:40 < nmz787> yashgaroth: < chris_99> would it be possible to trick the mouth into re-growing teeth 14:40 < nmz787> yashgaroth: i said IPSCs are close maybe 14:41 < yashgaroth> 'close' as in 10-15 years 14:41 < chris_99> that's not too far i guess 14:41 < nmz787> yashgaroth: well i said 50 years, so even cooler! 14:41 < nmz787> juri_: what can go wrong that is non-zero in normal teeth, you mean cavities n shit? 14:42 < yashgaroth> or you can just get synthetic replacements 14:42 < nmz787> juri_: there's a non-zero chance of dropping your dentures out a fast-moving car window 14:42 < drtread> back-in-the-day, my first post-doc (22 years ago) was studying bioceramics. the consensus then was that, even though biologically grown ceramic composites, such as teeth and seashells are excellent materials, they take just as long to manufacture in a lab as in an animal. 14:42 < juri_> nmz: my teeth just about killed me. infections in the gum that ate away the bone in my jaw. 14:42 < nmz787> huh 14:43 < nmz787> wow 14:43 < juri_> i had to have bone grafts, for structural integrity. no barfights for me, my face will just cave in. 14:43 < nmz787> that's scary, did you ever think to soak your mouth in tequila or vodka? 14:44 < nmz787> i mean, they must have tried the whole arsenal right? 14:44 < yashgaroth> once the bugs have access to bone, they're a little beyond alcohol 14:44 < juri_> they did. the teeth had to go for the infection to be removed. 14:44 < nmz787> hmm 14:44 < juri_> my family suffers from a degenerative bone condition, so my teeth just kindof melted. 14:44 < juri_> I just about died. 14:45 < drtread> wow. 14:45 < nmz787> ahh, so the real problem wasn't that bioteeth suck, it's the lab needed upgrading 14:45 < juri_> speaking as someone who has had bioteeth, and dentures, dentures are *so* much better. 14:46 < nmz787> do you leave them in all the time? 14:46 < juri_> they don't allow quite as much force without implanting studs, but they generally rock. cleaning them is easier, too. ;) 14:46 < nmz787> or only put them in to eat 14:46 < juri_> I leave them in constantly. 14:46 < nmz787> how do the attach to your gums? 14:46 -!- lupfantomo [~lupfantom@24-159-24-229.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:47 < juri_> they don't, really. suction works. 14:48 < juri_> I'm very glad i got them. A: i get to stay alive, and B: they're lower mantinence. i generally don't trust biological things. can't print them. ;) 14:49 < nmz787> so have you printed a set of your own teeth? 14:49 < juri_> nope. i haven't come up with a good scanning solution, and i'm convinced the wobble in my prussa is over the tolerances. 14:50 < juri_> its possible i'm wrong, which is why i asked the question earlier. 14:51 < nmz787> prussa? 14:51 < nmz787> not finding that on google 14:52 <@kanzure> it's a version of reprap 14:52 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@obquire.infologie.co] has quit [Quit: dpk made me do it!] 14:52 <@kanzure> https://github.com/prusajr/PrusaMendel 14:52 < juri_> prusa. 14:52 < nmz787> ahh 14:52 < juri_> sorry. 14:52 < nmz787> i though it was some mouth bone 14:52 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@obquire.infologie.co] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:52 < nmz787> since you said they weren't too strong, then mentioned wobble 14:53 < juri_> no, i mean layer-wise wobble in my prints. 14:54 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:54 < nmz787> :P 14:55 <@fenn> wouldn't want ABS teeth anyway 14:56 < yashgaroth> I just want a couple of stone eyeteeth 14:56 < juri_> what about PLA? 14:56 -!- ephialtes480 [~ephialtes@96.44.143.234] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:56 <@fenn> silicone casting is probably the way to do it 14:56 <@fenn> since you already have a copy of the object you want 14:57 <@fenn> silicone for the mold i mean 14:57 < nmz787> how do you close your throat while making the mold? 14:57 < drtread> the forces teeth have to endure are staggering. not many materials are up to the job. 14:57 <@fenn> nmz787: just take the dentures out and make a mold from it 14:57 < nmz787> ahh i meant for ppl with bioteeth 14:58 < nmz787> i guess bioteeth are really just teeth 14:58 < nmz787> the distinction should be with synTeeth 14:58 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Quit: the neuronal action potential is an electrical manipulation of reversible abrupt phase changes in the lipid bilayer] 14:58 <@fenn> wut 14:58 < nmz787> aka dentures i guess 14:58 <@fenn> yashgaroth: are you going to join free mars after that? 14:58 < nmz787> drtread: so do you have any recommendations or tips for photocuring? 14:59 < yashgaroth> fuck yes 14:59 < nmz787> fenn check this out paperbot: www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-30-8-836 14:59 < juri_> oh, that reminds me, i need to tell marsone why i want to go to mars. 15:00 < nmz787> paperbot: www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-30-8-836 15:00 < cpopell> I'm relying on becoming well known enough that Elon Musk just invites me along @_@ 15:00 <@fenn> it wants http:// 15:00 < nmz787> paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-30-8-836 15:00 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5d1a9732e49dc86a8c60ad96101a973a.txt 15:00 < nmz787> well that's stupid 15:01 <@fenn> yashgaroth: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2009/07/eye-teeth-seriously-please-dont-look-at-me/ 15:02 < yashgaroth> haha oh god 15:02 <@fenn> is that badass or what 15:02 < drtread> tips for photo curing? well... first, define the system. The practical range of viscosities of the monomers is a good place to start. 15:02 < nmz787> fenn http://nathanmccorkle.com/pdf/Compact%20Fourier-transform%20volume%20holographic%20spectrometer%20for%20diffuse%20source%20spectroscopy.pdf 15:02 < nmz787> drtread: so in my case i'll just spin coat a bunch of samples for varying times and RPMs 15:03 < nmz787> then build some graphs for those data vs thickness 15:03 < drtread> Then, pick a type of curing: radical, cationic or anionic. That will dictate the type of monomer that can be used and also the photo initiator. 15:03 < nmz787> so photoinitiators can be non-radical 15:04 < nmz787> like photons cause a charge shifted makind it a cat or anion? 15:04 < nmz787> making* 15:04 < drtread> spincoating has a high surface area to volume ratio, so O2 can inhibit the polymerization, unless an inert gas is used. 15:05 < nmz787> sure I remember that 15:05 < drtread> photoinitiators are molecules that fall apart when irradiated. they can fall apart into radicals, or ion pairs. 15:05 < nmz787> ahh, sure, i get it 15:06 < nmz787> is there a good PDF or book you can refer me to, that has all the options laid out? 15:06 < drtread> there are also photo acids, sort of a twist on photo cations. 15:06 < nmz787> looking at that rahn group paper now 15:07 < nmz787> photoacids might be of interest in DNA synthesis as well, actually 15:08 < nmz787> so it might be nice to have 1 photoacid for both tasks 15:08 < drtread> i don't have an overview paper available right now. send contact information... 15:08 < nmz787> nmz787 at gmail com 15:08 < drtread> ok. i'll get you something tonight. 15:09 < nmz787> sweet 15:09 < nmz787> i'll cross ref some DNA photoacids too 15:09 < nmz787> maybe i'll see them on rahn, or you might recognize them 15:09 < nmz787> drtread: thanks 15:10 < drtread> Sigma-Aldrich photoacids: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=9542506 15:11 <@fenn> juri_: six billion dollars seems like a rather over-optimistic kickstarter 15:12 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/DirectPDFAccess/56E20C28-AE49-AC90-57565FF6045D46B2_83331/ol-30-8-836.pdf?da=1&id=83331&seq=0&mobile=no 15:12 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c4339eaef9ff802e246ead3eeebfea67.pdf 15:12 <@kanzure> nmz787: there is your pdf 15:13 <@kanzure> ah i see you already grabbed it. 15:13 < nmz787> kanzure: thanks for the future 15:13 <@kanzure> paperbot gives the .txt output so that you can look to see if the pdf is linked in there somewhere. 15:13 < juri_> fenn: hmm? 15:13 < nmz787> kanzure: this guy seems active http://code.google.com/p/chemshapes/ 15:14 < nmz787> kanzure: according to his youtube channel 15:14 <@fenn> i just wonder how they are going to get that kind of funding 15:14 < juri_> I'm still observing the kickstarter phenomenon, and have yet to try it. 15:19 <@fenn> also there is no mention of any earth return vehicle. are they going to leave the lucky contestants on the surface for ever? 15:19 < juri_> Yes. 15:19 < juri_> and i'll still sign up. 15:20 < nmz787> lol 15:20 <@fenn> but there's also no mention of any nuclear reactor or sabatier processors or anything you'd actually need to start a self sufficient colony on an airless lifeless world 15:21 < cpopell> I'd just wait for Musk. 15:22 < cpopell> I don't particularly believe Mars One is anything but a money pit 15:22 <@fenn> no it looks like a hopeless untalented media organization like humanity+ 15:22 < cpopell> Humanity+ luckily got a decent new editor for their mag. 15:22 < cpopell> and kicked haywire out 15:22 <@kanzure> ... they put rachel in charge? 15:23 < cpopell> for a while I think? 15:23 < cpopell> Kanzure, any commentary on Rothman? 15:23 < cpopell> Rachel's been going off on me for being subversive and passive aggressive in her stupid fb group. 15:23 <@kanzure> huh? 15:23 < cpopell> Peter Rothman 15:23 < cpopell> the new hplus magazine EiC 15:24 <@kanzure> no. 15:24 < cpopell> Okay. Any commentary on Brandon Whale, head of the Stanford Transhumanist Association? 15:24 <@fenn> juri_: zubrin estimated the cost of a privately funded mars mission at $5-10b but that was _including_ earth return vehicles, several long distance rovers, and lab equipment 15:25 <@kanzure> i seem to have Brandon Whale down as a thiel foundation money recipient 15:25 < cpopell> okay, cool. 15:26 <@fenn> so even if they succeed it's still a bad deal 15:27 < juri_> you know, i hear a lot about money in this channel. its agrivating, for a random-contractor whos trying to make a difference, to see so many people talking about how XXYY is wasting their money. 15:27 < cpopell> kanzure, did Lemminkainen/Honkala get in touch with you? 15:27 <@kanzure> cpopell: he asked for a job within 24 hours, i haven't replied. 15:27 < cpopell> k 15:27 <@kanzure> juri_: just because someone is asking for money does not mean it's a good idea. many people take your money and do nothing with it. 15:28 <@kanzure> juri_: the ability to ask for money is not a particularly important signal. 15:28 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:28 <@fenn> juri_: if it were possible to go to mars for less money, you can be sure someone would have done it by now 15:28 < cpopell> Musk plans on doing it, but he also owns spacex and plans on charging 500k a ticket. 15:28 <@fenn> launch costs are really the only obstacle 15:29 < cpopell> And he actually has a reputation of being able to follow through on this shit. 15:29 <@kanzure> cpopell: tone down the hero worship.. if he gets hit by lightning we still need those things. 15:29 < nmz787> any specific project in mind? 15:29 < cpopell> I suspect it will be delayed if he gets hit by lightning, but I agree. 15:29 < cpopell> I'm encouraged to see more and more billionaires getting involved in space 15:30 <@kanzure> yeah, elon would probably survive a lightning strike anyway. 15:30 < cpopell> I'm not entirely sure he doesn't eat lightning...dude was head engineer for spacex and tesla at the same time for a few months. 15:30 <@fenn> head engineer? 15:30 <@kanzure> "i carry a 5 Bj capacitor constantly in the event of black swans such as this" 15:30 < cpopell> I believe so 15:31 < cpopell> Though my favorite grassroots space effort is Copenhagen Suborbitals 15:31 < nmz787> it's nice to see someone seemingly doing good things in a timely manner 15:31 <@kanzure> afaik he wasn't head engineer 15:31 < nmz787> but we'll see if it's all so 'good' i guess, hopefully he's not secretly dumping nuclear waste in dolphin mating zones or something 15:32 < nmz787> so many of the rich people turn out to be philanthropists after they've taken advantage of people or then environment 15:32 <@kanzure> what do you have against philanthropy? 15:32 < nmz787> nothing, it's the avantage taking 15:33 <@kanzure> you don't have to be rich t odo that 15:33 < nmz787> lotta people hate carnegie 15:33 < nmz787> for the whole pinketon thing 15:33 < nmz787> pinkerton* 15:33 < nmz787> etc 15:33 < nmz787> musk doesn't seem to be doing that stuff now though 15:34 < juri_> kanzure: consider that my 'i am a fulltime hacker, and have a hard time finding people to pay me to improve the world' rant. not that its your problem.. but the constant discussion of large sums of money, when i'm making my own shoes to lower costs is agrivating. 15:34 < nmz787> whereas carnegie was an plundered /then/ a philanthropist 15:34 < cpopell> huh. Did you guys know the pinkertons are still around? 15:34 < juri_> cpoppel: the place nextdoor has a pinkertons security sign. 15:35 <@kanzure> juri_: i don't think writing php is improving the world. 15:35 < juri_> you know, there's arguments that say you're right. ;) 15:36 < juri_> still, i'm doing what i can, and having a rough time. taling about how $6B is wasted here, and 500M is wasted there is.. grating. 15:36 <@kanzure> huh? 15:37 < cpopell> The discussion of it's grating, or the fact it's being wasted is grating? 15:37 < cpopell> Because all of us hate to see shitty stuff get funded. 15:37 < juri_> i think both, honestly. 15:37 < juri_> i'm not saying discussing it is wrong.. but seeing it is agrivating. 15:37 < nmz787> juri_: but the world really is that big 15:38 < juri_> yeah. i'm still getting used to that. 15:38 <@kanzure> i thought it was a kickstarter proposal 15:38 <@kanzure> and fenn was commenting about how it sucks 15:38 <@kanzure> and how it shouldn't be given money because of this suckyness 15:38 < juri_> you'll have to pardon me while i get used to the scale of things. i'm from a much smaller place. ;) 15:38 <@kanzure> also because kickstarter is probably not a good platform for raising a few billion dollars in venture capital 15:39 <@fenn> it's not literally a kickstarter 15:39 < juri_> yea, i'm pretty sure kickstarter would be a bad platform for that. 15:40 < juri_> think what paypal would earn off of that transfer. 15:40 <@kanzure> ah i was wondering, 'cause i couldn't see a kickstarter link 15:40 <@fenn> they have a donate button and so on, and plan to raise money from VC's for later selling the media distribution rights 15:40 <@kanzure> fenn: i think selling media distribution rights is interesting and worth looking into 15:40 <@fenn> but for such grandiose plans i'd hope they would at least have the level of technical detail one could get from reading a 200 page book on "how to colonize mars" 15:40 <@kanzure> yes 15:40 <@fenn> s/detail/correctness/ 15:40 <@kanzure> carefulness 15:41 < drtread> after the Challenger exploded, American schoolkids sent their lunch money to the White House to build a new one. Reagan thanked them very much, and it gave teachers all across the country a teachable moment on "orders of magnitude" 15:41 < drtread> kickstarter is lunch money. 15:41 <@kanzure> 40 million schoolkids -> $5/lunch -> not much 15:42 <@fenn> that's enough for ... 5 more shuttle launches :) 15:42 <@kanzure> i thought it was for an entire shuttle not a shuttle launch? 15:42 <@fenn> nope 15:42 <@kanzure> challenger was salvaged? 15:42 < nmz787> i would think kanzure is right 15:42 < nmz787> ' to build a new one' 15:42 < drtread> they found some of it. 15:42 < nmz787> is what drtread said 15:43 <@kanzure> hm. 15:43 <@fenn> wp sez: "Building Space Shuttle Endeavour cost about US$1.7 billion. One Space Shuttle launch costs around $450 million." 15:43 <@fenn> i thought it was less than that, but when you take into account the entire program cost i guess it's quite a lot 15:43 <@kanzure> hi i would like 2 launches plz 15:44 <@fenn> it's surprising a single launch costs almost a third of the construction cost, for a supposedly "super duper re-usable spacecraft" 15:44 <@fenn> supposedly they cheaped out on the up-front design and construction cost, so we got stuck with a more expensive to use system overall 15:45 < yashgaroth> well they have to basically rebuild the whole thing every time, because people get all complain-y when one explodes 15:45 <@kanzure> explosions is the whole point though 15:45 <@kanzure> that's how the up goer works 15:45 * fenn grumbles about momentum exchange tethers 15:45 < drtread> iirc, congress drastically cut the r&d budget about half way through. it was a disaster-in-waiting. 15:45 <@fenn> most of this stupidity is because people think "space flight" is like "airplane flight" 15:46 < drtread> fortunately, space elevators are almost here...? 15:46 < cpopell> Uuuuhn. 15:46 < cpopell> CNTs don't quite hit the necessary strengths. 15:46 <@fenn> drtread: if you consider rotating tethers capable of taking a suborbital flight to orbit, then yes, it's practically already here 15:46 < cpopell> even if we could manufacture them 'perfectly' 15:47 <@kanzure> who said anything about CNTs 15:47 < cpopell> I thought that was the closest we had with existing materials 15:47 <@fenn> cpopell and drtread please read some papers here at your leisure: http://tethers.com/TUPubs.html in particular the ones about momentum exchange tethers.. (unfortunately the good papers i was rmemembering violated ITAR somehow) 15:47 < nmz787> drtread: is there any reason I shouldn't just use SU-8? 15:48 < cpopell> Other than that, Kanzure, see the speculated negentropy work this month? 15:48 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-7-88.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:49 < nmz787> drtread: wiki on SU-8 reminds me of aspect ratio... this is important to me 15:49 <@fenn> http://www.tethers.com/papers/HASTOLAIAAPaper.pdf and http://www.tethers.com/papers/MERITT.pdf seem relevant to the current discussion 15:50 < drtread> SU-8 might well work. I'm not familiar with the chemistry used in the developer. 15:51 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:52 < drtread> it is already used for microfluidics, so i say go for it. 15:52 < nmz787> drtread: http://memscyclopedia.org/su8.html 15:52 <@fenn> the hypersonic air breathing airplane part isn't necessary; the payload pickup could be done from something like scaled composites ss2 15:53 < nmz787> 'These astounding results are due to the low optical absorption in the UV range which only limits the thickness to 2 mm for the 365nm-wavelength where the photo-resist is the most sensitive (i.e., for this thickness very little UV light reach the bottom of the structure).' 15:54 < nmz787> wow this is cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGA 15:54 < nmz787> .wiki 15:54 < nmz787> .wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGA 15:55 < nmz787> 'LIGA is a German acronym for Lithographie, Galvanoformung, Abformung (Lithography, Electroplating, and Molding) that describes a fabrication technology used to create high-aspect-ratio microstructures.' 15:55 < nmz787> 'The X-ray LIGA process was originally developed at the Forschungszentrum Karlsruhe, Germany, to produce nozzles for uranium enrichment.' 15:56 < nmz787> juri_: so what is the best material for dentures these days, in case a tooth of mine ever needs replaced 15:56 < drtread> wow... 50:1 aspect ratio. i didn't know that was possible. 15:56 < nmz787> 'The notable characteristics of X-ray LIGA-fabricated structures include: 15:56 < nmz787> high aspect ratios on the order of 100:1' 15:57 < nmz787> juri_: there's your welding based printer 15:57 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:07 < cpopell> hm 16:08 <@fenn> great now all you need is a synchrotron 16:10 < ThomasEgi> nmz787, tooth replacement? 16:11 < ThomasEgi> or who was asking that? 16:11 < juri_> fenn: i've had someone trying to convince me to do that. 16:14 < ThomasEgi> juri_, for teeth, usualy ceramics or ceramic-compounds are used. 16:15 < ThomasEgi> pretty awesome stuff that is. so far i only have it to fill up a few holes in my teeth . but it is amazing 16:15 < ThomasEgi> not exactly sure if they'd use the same stuff for an entire tooth. but probably something simmilar 16:22 -!- augur [~augur@c-68-34-26-189.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:23 -!- drtread [467057c0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.112.87.192] has quit [] 16:24 -!- strages_home [~strages@adsl-98-81-7-88.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:25 < nmz787> bbl 16:27 -!- augur [~augur@c-68-34-26-189.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:31 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:02 <@kanzure> new frontpage for http://www.openworm.org/ 17:06 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:11 <@kanzure> deap sea creatures http://imgur.com/a/xkfSv 17:14 < brownies> well that was thoroughly terrifying. 17:15 < yashgaroth> the dumbo octopus was cute 17:16 <@kanzure> *deep 17:19 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:38 -!- archbox_ [~archbox@unaffiliated/archbox] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:45 < abetusk> well, it's official, I cut my first function circuit board 17:47 <@kanzure> this is why i hate "on intelligence": http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5162002 17:47 <@kanzure> this guy clearly has not read anything about the blue brain project 17:52 <@fenn> i dont get it, what does AI have to do with blue brain? 17:52 <@fenn> or is that the point 17:52 <@kanzure> from a very far distance, i'm sure someone could conflate whole brain emulation with artificial intelligence. 17:53 <@fenn> anyway, funding for the human brain project is good news 17:54 <@kanzure> did you read their proposal from months ago? 17:54 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/HBP_flagship.pdf 17:55 <@fenn> not yet, i just learned about it 17:55 <@kanzure> it's not exactly as interesting as the whole brain emulation roadmap document 17:56 < abetusk> fenn, nmz787, how's the laser cutter going, or has that project been scrapped? 17:59 <@fenn> nmz787 is investigating photo cure resins as an alternative, due to concerns about porosity (i guess) 18:02 < abetusk> you're going to be able to get the same level of resolution as a laser cutter? 18:03 <@fenn> same resolution but different material 18:03 <@fenn> it might even be possible to do either cutting or curing using the same laser 18:04 < abetusk> interesting. That would be novel 18:04 -!- aristarchus [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:04 <@kanzure> http://www.humanbrainproject.eu/ http://www.humanbrainproject.eu/files/HBP_flagship.pdf 18:05 <@fenn> 108 pages? 18:06 < juri_> 'light reading'. 18:06 <@fenn> well at least it has an abstract 18:06 <@kanzure> next you're going to taunt me for reading 18:07 <@kanzure> because fuck reading, right? 18:07 <@kanzure> "This is such a weird comment I wonder if you were even being serious or even read the article. Are you seriously responding to an article about a research consortium (using a Nobel Prize-winning neuroscientist as an outreach person) by suggesting that they haven't read a book by a tech magnate and a science writer)?" 18:07 <@kanzure> "I mean, nobody would suggest that Jeff Hawkins is a slouch, but get real. These people are not bumpkins tilting at research money windmills because they haven't seen the light in the best-seller aisle." 18:07 < juri_> wow. 18:08 < juri_> i don't know who that is, but fuck that guy. 18:08 <@kanzure> huh? 18:08 <@kanzure> i think he criticizes the "just read on intelligence" person quite well. 18:09 * juri_ shakes her head. 18:10 <@kanzure> look for yourself: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5162002 18:12 < juri_> wow. 1.6B. 18:12 <@fenn> "on intelligence" is (supposedly) based on neuroscience research, so it just doesn't make sense from any perspective 18:13 <@kanzure> juri_: we've been mentioning the blue brain project in here for a few years; it's not totally crap. 18:13 <@kanzure> juri_: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gFI7o69VJM&list=PLgO7JBj821uEq-iLteI2BgeXc8JY1PgF2#t=9m 18:15 < juri_> honestly? it seems like not enough money. 18:16 < juri_> the world economy is 21T a year, last i heard. 1.6B to 'simulate a brain'(vaast oversimplification, i know) seems like a drop in the bucket. 18:17 <@fenn> yes but the entire world isn't scientists and computer manufacturers 18:17 < juri_> And Why Not? ;) 18:18 <@fenn> because, you know, diapers and coca cola 18:18 < juri_> i just wish we could guarantee all of that work would end up in the public domain. 18:18 -!- Proteus [~Proteus@unaffiliated/proteus] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 18:18 <@kanzure> juri_: a lot of it is available with somewhat free licensing 18:18 <@kanzure> hg clone http://www.neuron.yale.edu/hg/neuron/nrn 18:18 < juri_> yea, i saw that link. 18:19 <@fenn> that is a good point, the greed of university "technology transfer" departments is disturbing 18:19 <@kanzure> blah blah blah required by law etc. 18:19 <@fenn> what's required by law? 18:19 < brownies> technology transfer departments is one way that universities stay self-sustaining -_- 18:19 <@kanzure> the technology transfer offices were created in response to the bayh-dole act 18:19 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayh%E2%80%93Dole_Act 18:20 < brownies> you can't just posit a magical world where everyone researches everything for free without any way to keep it going 18:20 <@kanzure> brownies: federal funding doesn't work like that 18:20 <@fenn> that's just wrong, we fund them through taxes and tuition, they don't need to go fucking over their staff and collaborators out of some misguided sense of monetary gain 18:20 < brownies> doesn't work like what? 18:20 < juri_> i'm asked to do what i do without compensation all of the time, and yet, i've managed an entire career of ONLY open work. 18:21 <@kanzure> brownies: research is already funded 18:21 < juri_> i wouldn't ask what i didn't do. 18:21 < brownies> tuition is a vanishingly small amount of a university's funding, btw 18:21 <@kanzure> brownies: tuition was a silly thing to bring up, the vast majority of funding comes from entities like the NIH. 18:21 <@fenn> yes, a lot of it comes by appropriating half of all research grant funding, which also doesn't come from university IP 18:21 < juri_> I don't do well, but i live my own life, with all the results of my work in the open. 18:21 < brownies> kanzure: sure. and then it's commercialized and distributed through tech transfer. 18:22 <@kanzure> only because of that law, really. 18:22 <@kanzure> it doesn't have to be that way. 18:22 < brownies> there isn't a dichotomy here. a university getting more funding to do more research is generally a Good Thing. 18:22 <@fenn> it's a very new thing compared to the history of universities 18:23 <@fenn> and the funding doesn't go into research, that's what research grants are for 18:23 <@kanzure> brownies: you can get more economic development if everyone is allowed to build inventions freely 18:23 <@kanzure> http://www.bu.edu/otd/files/2011/02/The-Enactment-of-Bayh-Dole.pdf 18:25 <@kanzure> "The problem, very simply, is the present policy 18:25 <@kanzure> followed by most government agencies of retaining 18:25 <@kanzure> patent rights to inventions." 18:25 <@kanzure> that doesn't even make sense 18:25 <@kanzure> copyrights owned by the government are in the public domain, but patents aren't? 18:25 <@kanzure> so before bayh-dole, stuff wasn't being used at all? 18:25 <@kanzure> who the hell decided that 18:25 < brownies> i'm not really sure what point you guys are making, tbh 18:26 <@fenn> that universities should make the results of their research freely available 18:26 <@fenn> it's not complicated 18:26 < juri_> i'm just kindof ranting. i guess i'm in a bad mood today, having been sick. 18:26 < juri_> i think its time for more coffee. 18:27 <@fenn> i'm confused as to the original intent of the bayh-dole act 18:27 <@kanzure> In my opinion, government contractors—including 18:27 <@kanzure> small businesses and universities— should not be 18:27 <@kanzure> given title to inventions developed at government 18:27 <@kanzure> expense. That is the gist of my testimony. These 18:27 <@kanzure> inventions are paid for by the public and therefore 18:27 <@kanzure> should be available for any citizen to use or not as he 18:27 <@kanzure> sees fit. 18:27 <@kanzure> fenn: it seems to be because companies were unable to "license" technology from universities. or it was possibly something about "economic stimulus". 18:28 < brownies> so basically, in your opinion, the creator of a technology should not be able to benefit from it, just because some government money was used to fund some of the work that went into it? 18:28 < nmz787> dumbo octopus==pikachu 18:28 <@fenn> all images produced by nasa are uncopyrightable, they're in the public domain; why don't we have a similar provision for federally funded research? i just dont get the whole licensing thing 18:28 < brownies> you're conflating research vs. patents, i think 18:30 <@fenn> brownies: if having an artificial monopoly over it is what you mean by "benefiting" then yes, i agree, that should not happen 18:30 <@kanzure> wait what... the one senator against bayh-dole gave up in the name of courtesy? what the fuck. 18:30 <@fenn> patents, copyrights, access to data 18:30 <@kanzure> brownies: they can benefit from it. you can do that without patents. 18:31 < nmz787> so do ppl generally like bayh-dole in here or what? 18:31 <@fenn> it seems to have "solved" a problem by making a worse problem 18:32 < brownies> here's the core of the issue 18:32 < brownies> do you think the spirit of the patent system is valid? 18:32 <@kanzure> nmz787: no we hate bayh-dole in here 18:32 <@kanzure> where is jojack's bayh-dole rant.. damn. 18:33 -!- Jaakko96 [~Jaakko@94-194-89-130.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:34 <@kanzure> wtf the only file talking about bayh-dole from transcripts i've typed is http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2011/victoria-stodden-transparency-in-scientific-discovery.txt 18:35 < brownies> and spirit aside, i don't even see the implementation problem with tech transfer ... are there thousands of innovators champing at the bit to commercialize the latest research from a university? 18:35 < brownies> what's the real opportunity cost of economics development? 18:36 <@fenn> "economics development"? 18:36 < brownies> that's teh phrase kanzure used above. 18:36 <@fenn> what you said doesn't make sense 18:36 <@kanzure> 18:23 <@kanzure> brownies: you can get more economic development if everyone is allowed to build inventions freely 18:37 <@fenn> it's like asking "what's the opportunity cost of money" 18:38 -!- bkero [~Ben@osuosl/staff/bkero] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:38 <@fenn> brownies: the implementation problem is that researcher A isn't able to use the results from researcher B because his system has been patented by the university researcher B works at 18:39 < brownies> and my question is, how often does this happen? 18:39 < brownies> what is the real opportunity cost, measured in lost economic development? 18:39 <@fenn> how the hell should i know 18:39 < brownies> exactly. 18:39 < brownies> so why assume that it's a big thing ? 18:40 <@fenn> it's practically impossible to estimate, like asking what's the opportunity cost of freedom of speech vs censorship 18:40 < brownies> no, because if this were a problem, someone would have said something by now 18:41 <@fenn> people are saying things, that's why there's the fucking bayh-dole act in the first place 18:41 < brownies> and we could go out and count the number of researchers complaining about this 18:41 -!- Jaakko96 [~Jaakko@94-194-89-130.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 18:41 < brownies> the bayh-dole act appears to have implemented tech transfer, which is what you're railing against 18:42 <@fenn> sort of 18:43 <@kanzure> actually, someone did do an estimate and talked about it at open science summit 2012 18:43 <@kanzure> unfortunately i couldn't divine the url to his project while he was giving the talk, and then i forgot what he looked like so i couldn't ask him for a url. 18:44 <@fenn> the intro to the act, in the words of evan bayh: "The problem, very simply, is the present policy 18:44 <@fenn> followed by most government agencies of retaining 18:44 <@fenn> patent rights to inventions. 18:44 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2011/stephan-kinsella-ip-and-new-mercantilism.txt 18:45 -!- augur [~augur@c-68-34-26-189.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:45 <@kanzure> hmm. 18:46 <@fenn> he then goes on to say how private industry needs patent exclusivity in order to further develop government funded research into a commercial product 18:47 <@fenn> but the problem was never that people didn't have control of their own patents, it was that the government wasn't licensing the patents to them 18:47 <@fenn> what i'm saying is that nobody should have patents on government funded research at all in the first place 18:48 <@fenn> i wonder if i'm even making sense 18:48 <@kanzure> fenn: i wonder if "BUT patents are necessary to make anything happen because companies don't have an incentive otherwise" was an argument pre-bayh-dole. 18:48 <@fenn> yes that's the argument 18:49 <@fenn> er, that's the intro to the bill 18:49 <@kanzure> no the intro to the bill seems to be "we're not doing anything with these patents, so why not give them to companies" 18:49 <@fenn> "unless private industry has protection ... they cannot afford the risk of commercialization" 18:49 <@kanzure> oh. 18:50 <@fenn> which is plainly bullshit 18:50 <@fenn> there are no patents on the mass of the earth or other results of basic research 18:50 < brownies> you can't patent the mass of the earth 18:50 <@fenn> but private industry uses these results all the time in commercialization of products based on that data 18:50 < brownies> this would be a lot simpler if we all stopped saying dumb things 18:50 <@kanzure> brownies: but you can patent a gene 18:50 <@fenn> why can't you patent the mass of the earth? 18:51 < brownies> this goes back to the original question: do you think the *spirit* of the patent system is valid? 18:51 -!- favetelinguis [zwoop@202-154-137-231.ubs-dynamic.connections.net.nz] has quit [] 18:51 < brownies> should there be protection in place for the first inventor? 18:51 <@fenn> "method of determining mass of celesial objects and data derived therefrom" 18:51 < brownies> kanzure: yeah, patenting genes is fucked up too 18:51 < brownies> you can't patent data. it's not "invented" 18:51 <@kanzure> if you want protection then you would use a trade secret 18:52 < brownies> the patent system was meant to be an improvement over trade secrets, by letting people share their results with the world while still having first mover advantage 18:52 <@kanzure> brownies: the patent system disagrees with you. many things are patented that are data, including schematics. 18:52 < brownies> schematics are not data 18:52 <@kanzure> brownies: no, that's not what the patent system was. 18:52 < brownies> alright then. what WAS the original intent of the patent system? 18:52 <@fenn> er, i would agree with brownies on this point 18:53 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2011/stephan-kinsella-ip-and-new-mercantilism.txt 18:53 <@kanzure> "It had its peak in the late 1500s. It was the policy of the crown by granting industries certain monopolies. In England in the 1500, many goods were covered by patents like playing cards, books and wine and so on." 18:53 <@kanzure> "Not because anyone invented it, but because the crown was granting favors for someone sometimes in exchange for agreeing to collect taxes for the state. It caused the monopolists and private companies to turn to the government to perform search and seizures and others going outside the monopoly. Did the other shops have the king's stamps?" 18:54 <@fenn> but in america the idea was to prevent hoarding of secrets 18:54 <@kanzure> "So Microsoft uses its money to acquire more patents and then uses that money to sue other companies and then to shake them down for royalty payments. It's called royalties for a reason!" 18:54 <@kanzure> fenn: i'd be interested in seeing direct evidence of that. 18:55 <@fenn> well, we can certainly speculate all we want about motives and intentions, but then there's what's written in the law and there's no guessing about the text of that 18:56 <@fenn> "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." 18:56 <@kanzure> what does that have to do about hoarding secrets 18:57 < brownies> oh ffs kanzure -_- i meant the modern patent system. 18:57 <@fenn> damn i'm remembering something that i cant find 18:57 <@kanzure> please know that i understand that the trade secret argument is often used in discussions on this topic, but the argument mostly goes "well, the patent system exists because otherwise trade secrets and nobody would do anything" rather than whatever you're trying to explain. 18:58 < brownies> that argument, like many of the things said here lately, makes no sense 18:58 <@kanzure> i believe the "trade secret excuse" is a post-facto rationalization and not the actual reason or explanation 18:58 < brownies> probably because it's not even a real sentence 19:00 < brownies> anyway, protection for IP creators is not some radical idea 19:00 <@fenn> yeah, well, you're just a figment of my imagination, so nyah 19:00 < brownies> there are lots of issues with implementation details of patents and copyrights, but that doesn't invalidate the actual goal 19:00 <@kanzure> protection for IP creators *is* radical.. 19:00 <@fenn> sorry kanzure i thought the constitution specifically laid out the rationale for the patent system, but i was wrong 19:01 <@kanzure> fenn: thanks for admitting it, i'm just as confused as you are 19:01 <@kanzure> on its surface, the patent system itself /looks/ like a convenient way to record technological developments 19:01 <@kanzure> so i'm sure someone like ben franklin was ecstatic about the concept of having this shit written down somewhere 19:03 <@kanzure> it's also possible that the patent system was established in the US to make money from inventions in the same way that the british empire was taxing companies in the colonies for similar patents (not sure what patent law was like at the time). 19:03 <@kanzure> http://movingtofreedom.org/2006/08/31/ben-franklin-on-patents/ 19:03 <@kanzure> hehe "An ironmonger in London however, assuming a good deal of my pamphlet, and working it up into his own, and making some small changes in the machine, which rather hurt its operation, got a patent for it there, and made, as I was told, a little fortune by it." 19:03 <@kanzure> poor franklin 19:03 < brownies> heh. ironmonger. 19:05 <@fenn> the patent office was the closest thing they had to an open source revision control system in 1800 19:06 <@fenn> but people have learned how to game the flaws in the system 19:07 <@kanzure> there was an article i was reading once about how patent systems tend to be ignored when a new country sprouts up, to give a temporary advantage, or to restart a patent registry, so as to prefer local business as opposed to foreign business. but i'm not sure how that works with WIPO and the world patent agreements these days.. 19:07 <@fenn> i'm really at odds with the "obviousness" criteria 19:08 <@fenn> just because i didn't patent something first doesn't mean that i didn't think of it myself 19:08 -!- bkero [~Ben@osuosl/staff/bkero] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:08 <@fenn> kanzure: "new countries" don't just sprout up these days 19:09 <@fenn> though i hear antigua is considering violating WIPO treaties in retaliation to US censorship of their internet lines used for gambling, or something like that 19:13 <@fenn> brownies: it's hard for us to imagine an investing system where there's no such thing as patents or copyrights, but that doesn't mean it couldn't exist 19:13 <@fenn> often trotted out is "why would anyone invest in you if you can't even get a patent on your invention?" 19:14 <@fenn> but if nobody had patents, it just wouldn't be an issue. they'd invest in you because they think you're a good business partner, you know your shit, the invention is marketable, all the same criteria they use today 19:16 <@kanzure> i think a troll in the 1800s complaining about version control systems would be a hilarious comedy sketch 19:16 <@kanzure> "Ye of little faith, where are the latest documents describing the method of picking cotton?" ... actually that's still a valid question. nevermind. 19:16 -!- ArmilusDajjal [~safitan@75-105-12-23.cust.wildblue.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:16 -!- mutagen [~safitan@75-105-12-23.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:19 <@kanzure> jojack got back to me about the guy who was doing simulations of "with and without patents" 19:19 <@kanzure> "Andrew Torrance, Kentucky U school of law prof spoke in 2011. He is now at MIT for this year with Eric Von Hippel, who is the guru on User Innovation." 19:19 <@kanzure> http://archive.mises.org/18812/andrew-torrance-patents-and-the-regress-of-useful-arts/ 19:20 <@kanzure> "Torrance’s simulation indicates that a society with no patent law would have more innovation than one with patent law. What is interesting is Torrance said that when he began this project he fully expected the simulation to show the opposite: to vindicate the legitimacy of patent law." 19:20 -!- u-metacognition [~metacogni@99-7-58-96.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:22 <@kanzure> i wonder if it would be possible to (safely) light my hands on fire while typing 19:23 <@fenn> er, and do his control simulations match current reality? 19:24 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1411328 19:24 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Patents%20and%20the%20Regress%20of%20Useful%20Arts.pdf 19:25 <@fenn> woah hyman rickover was arguing against the bayh-dole act 19:26 <@kanzure> who is this? 19:26 <@fenn> created the US navy nuclear power program 19:27 <@fenn> "these inventions are paid for by the public and therefore should be available for any citizen to use or not as he sees fit." i wonder if he had won, would i have a nuclear power plant in the garage 19:28 <@kanzure> my guess is no, because you would not own a garage in that reality either. 19:29 <@fenn> how about an aircraft carrier 19:29 <@fenn> it's paid for by the public! 19:29 < yashgaroth> I don't think you could fit a carrier into a garage 19:30 < ThomasEgi> hm.. wasn't there a nuclear reactor in a swimming pool once? 19:31 <@fenn> ThomasEgi: that was a story by charles stross 19:32 <@fenn> rickover was unpopular because he would call bullshit on contractor's excessively high bids 19:38 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-98-210-29-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:42 -!- augur [~augur@c-68-34-26-189.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:42 < brownies> kanzure: you can do so briefly by dipping in your hands a solution of methanol and water and then lighting them on fire 19:42 < brownies> just don't blame me if you, uh, burn anything 19:42 -!- augur [~augur@c-68-34-26-189.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:42 < brownies> fenn: patents are generally not held as a prerequisite for investment 19:42 < jrayhawk> it's recommended that you shave first 19:44 <@fenn> before investment, or setting yourself on fire, or both 19:45 <@fenn> "invest in me, i'm on fire!" 19:45 <@kanzure> brownies: has anyone studied whether or not facial hair increases the chances of closing a successful round? 19:47 <@fenn> this is sort of like scientific studies of the stock market 19:47 <@fenn> as soon as anyone determines a winning strategy, it becomes irrelevant 19:47 <@kanzure> brownies: to be fair, patents are often cited as a requirement for attracting investors, especially in biotech companies. naturally, an investor could theoretically invest without a patent in the company, but i haven't heard of this happening. 19:48 < klafka> wow 19:48 < klafka> you guys are _still_ talking about patents 19:48 < brownies> i'm not sure about "especially" 19:49 <@kanzure> klafka: yes it is possible to do multiple things at once on the interwebs -_- 19:49 < klafka> hah 19:49 < brownies> the cost of a patent means it's right out for all but a few industries 19:49 < klafka> fair enough 19:49 < brownies> of which, yes, biotech is one 19:49 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:49 < brownies> * before raising a round, i mean 19:49 < brownies> once you have 10M to play with, it's a different story 19:57 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:03 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-98-210-29-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:05 -!- klafka_ [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:07 <@kanzure> have i mentioned how much i hate academic programmers? 20:07 <@kanzure> http://rudylab.wustl.edu/research/cell/methodology/cellmodels/LRd/code.htm 20:07 <@kanzure> i think the is a nice touch 20:07 < Guest15014> grelbarjsrol = 0; 20:09 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:09 -!- augur [~augur@c-68-34-26-189.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-70-113-84-191.austin.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:23 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:25 <@kanzure> https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/PospischilEtAl2008 20:25 <@kanzure> seems to have lots of models https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain 20:26 <@kanzure> https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/Thalamocortical "GitHub repository for an OSB project containing a thalamocortical network model based on Traub et al. 2005" 20:26 <@kanzure> gah.. 20:26 -!- barriers_ [~barriers@121-73-87-49.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:26 <@kanzure> https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/Thalamocortical/blob/master/neuroConstruct/pythonScripts/L6NonTuftRS_FI.py 20:26 <@kanzure> https://github.com/OpenSourceBrain/Thalamocortical/blob/master/neuroConstruct/pythonScripts/GenNetworkParallel.py 20:26 <@kanzure> gah i don't think these guys understand how to write python 20:27 <@kanzure> last two lines are "sleep(5)" and "exit()" :( 20:27 -!- barriers [~barriers@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:35 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35 <@kanzure> webkit/chrome exploit http://scarybeastsecurity.blogspot.se/2013/02/exploiting-64-bit-linux-like-boss.html 20:40 <@kanzure> "It's normal for VCs in Series A to bill you for their legal expenses.".. really? 20:41 -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@cpe-70-113-84-191.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:46 < cpopell> kanzure: Know anyone who's done work with Dmitri Itskov? 20:47 < cpopell> (Russian Billionaire, funds the Russia 2045 project) 20:47 <@kanzure> i know people who hate dmitri itskov 20:47 <@kanzure> does that count? 20:47 < cpopell> who? 20:48 <@kanzure> pretty much everyone in the russian transhumant movement inc. hate the 2045 person (it's just a media guy hyping things up and stepping on our friends) 20:48 <@kanzure> i'd start with danila medvedev 20:48 <@fenn> guh. "more than a quarter of the licences issued by universities and research institutes include clauses allowing the business partner in the arrangement to delete information from research papers. Almost half allow them to insist on publication being delayed. 20:48 <@kanzure> Медведев 20:48 < klafka_> Q_Q 20:48 <@kanzure> fenn: source? 20:49 <@fenn> http://www.economist.com/node/5327661?story_id=5327661&no_na_tran=1 20:49 <@kanzure> cpopell: Медведев Данила 20:49 < cpopell> Okay 20:49 <@kanzure> cpopell: you should get to know him, he's worth talking to at least once or twice 20:49 <@kanzure> he's a little impractical in his projects 20:50 < cpopell> I wish I understood the russian h+ movement better. I know of the 2045 guys, who are meh (itskov), I know of Monolith who are fucked up (Frolov) 20:50 < cpopell> I don't know of what their mainstream is 20:50 <@kanzure> rtm is where the action happens 20:50 <@kanzure> the russians have always been far better organized than humanityplus 20:50 <@fenn> is there such a thing as "mainstream transhumanism"? 20:50 < cpopell> is Monolith disliked? 20:50 < cpopell> by the rest of the Russians? 20:50 <@kanzure> not sure 20:51 < cpopell> with their white supremacy/leninist/postmodernist agenda/trolling (it's not really clear, and I don't read russian anymore) 20:52 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:52 <@fenn> how can you be transhumanist and postmodernist? isn't that a contradiction? 20:52 <@kanzure> philosoban 20:53 <@kanzure> .. meh nevermind i don't care right now. 20:53 <@fenn> sorry 20:53 < yashgaroth> when a man is tired of banning, he is tired of life 20:54 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:54 <@kanzure> tread carefully he who would poke this dragon 20:57 < jrayhawk> transhumanists transcend the human condition, postmodernists transcend moderning meaning/values; how would they be contradictory? 20:57 < jrayhawk> they seem largely orthogonal 20:57 < yashgaroth> yeah I don't see them as mutually exclusive 20:58 <@fenn> nevermind, it's a matter of definitions that nobody can agree on 21:01 < jrayhawk> The sort of value shifts forced by implications of SL2 through 4 thinking probably seem fairly postmodern to SL0 folks regardless. 21:02 < klafka_> hmm 21:02 < klafka_> have you guys seen OSError: [Errno 12] Cannot allocate memory in python before? 21:02 < klafka_> I'm wondering if there are any issues with the multiprocessing module on very large memory systems? 21:03 < jrayhawk> Modern operating systems should let you overcommit into swap, so you'd be noticing terrible performance problems and triggering the kernel OOM killer before hitting a hard wall; perhaps you're running 32-bit python? 21:04 <@fenn> jrayhawk: i can't even put myself in the frame of mind of someone who doesn't believe in virtual reality or living to 100 is possible 21:04 <@fenn> apparently this is "most people, journalists, politicians" 21:05 <@fenn> didn't people have video games in 1999? 21:05 < klafka_> hmm jrayhawk i don't think so 21:05 < klafka_> because i'm creating processes that are like 8gigs or so and they aren't erroring out then 21:06 < klafka_> they error out when the map is supposed to return 21:06 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:06 < cpopell> fenn: Correct. 21:06 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:06 < jrayhawk> file $(readlink -f $(which python)) to verify 21:07 < cpopell> In fact, I know a number of people who are aware it's possible 21:07 < cpopell> but say 'I think I'll be done at 80' 21:08 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:08 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:09 < klafka_> ok cool 21:09 < klafka_> ./usr/bin/python2.7: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped 21:10 < jrayhawk> hmm. mystifying. 21:10 < klafka_> i think i did just run out of memory 21:10 < klafka_> it's so far working with 22 processes instead of 32 21:10 < klafka_> i just didn't think i'd run out of memory with 288gb 21:10 <@fenn> you ran out of swap? 21:10 <@kanzure> klafka_: have you considered gevent or eventlet instead of multiprocessing 21:10 < jrayhawk> cat /proc/swaps might be of interest, too 21:10 < klafka_> no kanzure not familiar 21:11 < cpopell> yashgaroth --flying out a week from Tuesday 21:11 < yashgaroth> hell yeah 21:11 <@kanzure> klafka_: 8 GB coroutines sounds extremely ridiculous 21:11 < klafka_> just big dataset processing kanzure 21:11 < klafka_> i can make it more efficient but i was like 'i have 288gb ram' 21:11 < klafka_> 'fuck it' 21:11 < jrayhawk> an excellent attitude 21:11 < klafka_> like this it's an 80 LOC script 21:12 < cpopell> you know where I live right yash? 21:12 < klafka_> and i'm only running it like once or twice 21:12 < cpopell> Vista 21:12 <@kanzure> is this still your sql klafka? 21:12 < klafka_> kanzure: haha this is me processing the results of that 21:12 <@kanzure> have you considered learning about hadoop 21:13 < klafka_> yes 21:13 < klafka_> so this disco vid i watched was really interesting about how m/r systems are generally way less efficient htan batch processing 21:13 < klafka_> until you scale to the hundreds of systems 21:14 < klafka_> btw kanzure - going to pydata? 21:14 < klafka_> anyone going to pydata? 21:15 <@kanzure> an ok summary of openworm/david dalrymple/brain emulation stuff: http://www.jefftk.com/news/2011-11-02 21:15 <@kanzure> klafka_: no, i didn't even go to pycon. i should consider showing up to one of these, shouldn't i. 21:16 < klafka_> well pydata is part of pycon 2013 21:17 < klafka_> hmmm i think i see the problem i'm not closing the multiprocess pool 21:18 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:19 <@kanzure> Tabrenus: hello 21:20 < Tabrenus> hi 21:20 <@kanzure> what brings you yonder 21:20 < Tabrenus> nothing in particular, just favorited the channel 21:20 < yashgaroth> cpopell: I have a vague idea of where that is 21:21 < cpopell> just gmaps vista, california 21:21 < yashgaroth> yep, it's closer than I thought 21:21 < cpopell> ooh, you want to drive up with me to LA friday the 15th? 21:22 < yashgaroth> let me check schedules, also what for 21:22 < cpopell> I was going to go see finfer and barone 21:22 < cpopell> and catch a ride with my dad. But I figured you always love networking anyway 21:22 < yashgaroth> oh, I adore it 21:22 < yashgaroth> who's barone, another musician? 21:22 < cpopell> nah, he's a former colleague 21:23 < cpopell> programmer, works at Daqri, which is an AR startup 21:23 -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:23 < cpopell> err, not colleague. I knew him at RPI 21:23 < cpopell> he's tied into the burner community 21:23 < yashgaroth> ok well let's take this to PMs for the channel's sake 21:23 < cpopell> k 21:25 <@kanzure> what's wrong with burning man 21:25 < cpopell> nothing? 21:25 < cpopell> just trying to give an idea of personality 21:25 <@kanzure> why does that necessitate pms 21:26 < yashgaroth> we're making travel arrangements 21:26 < brownies> so many polygons! http://site.daqri.com/ 21:26 < cpopell> kanz: making travel plans 21:36 -!- lupfantomo [~lupfantom@24-159-24-229.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:50 -!- lupfantomo [~lupfantom@24-159-24-229.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:54 -!- CharlieNobody [~Charlie@97-85-243-194.static.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:57 -!- underscor [~quassel@199.96.82.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:02 -!- Urchin [~urchin@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:03 -!- Sebastian_ [48e3889b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.72.227.136.155] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:14 <@kanzure> brownies: protomold just showed up in wired, dunno if you're still curious about retooling costs http://www.wired.com/design/2013/01/protomold/ 22:16 < brownies> 1B market cap? impressive. 22:16 < brownies> pretty cool that they've added stainless steel and medical resin 22:25 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:30 <@kanzure> oh maybe i should read things i link, didn't notice the $1B market cap. 22:32 -!- CharlieNobody [~Charlie@97-85-243-194.static.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34 < nmz787> hey protomold looks cool 22:34 <@kanzure> epfl person interested in starting a diybio group - Anna Cyganowski 22:35 < nmz787> where? 22:35 <@kanzure> epfl 22:35 <@kanzure> it's in switzerland 22:36 <@kanzure> hehe: 22:36 <@kanzure> 2010-06-04.log:06:57 < kanzure> fenn: what was your opinion on http://www.protomold.com/ ? 22:36 <@kanzure> 2010-06-04.log:06:59 < fenn> why, what's special about protomold? 22:38 -!- OldCoder_ [~OldCoder_@c-69-181-140-134.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:43 < nmz787> kanzure: i was looking for somewhere to injection mold openSpectrometer housings 22:43 <@kanzure> ah i wasn't aware 22:43 <@kanzure> emachineshop also does injection molding i think, but i dunno if their prices are better than protomold's 22:43 < nmz787> i wonder if protomold charges to keep the tool stored at their place 22:49 <@fenn> so what, they're a quick turn around prototyping service. nothing that hasn't been done for 150 years already 22:50 < nmz787> so what what? 22:50 <@kanzure> wasn't the appeal that they were cheaper? 22:50 < nmz787> i havent heard of any others 22:50 <@kanzure> mfg.com probably has others 22:50 < nmz787> the last place i called did injection molded optics 22:50 < nmz787> starting at like $15k per tool and design 22:51 <@kanzure> yuck mfg.com has changed. they used to list the actual suppliers. 22:52 <@fenn> hehe "A buyer in China viewed the profile of an MFG.com member located in 北京 (Beijing), China" 22:52 <@kanzure> mfg.com always seemed a little weird. they want me to register, login, then upload a project, then wait for bids? 22:52 <@kanzure> why not just give me a generic price for something with one surface and nothing weird? 23:08 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:15 -!- underscor [~quassel@199.96.82.64] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:18 <@kanzure> if lance armstrong gets to do doping, then why not me in typing competitions 23:18 -!- soylentbomb [~k@d149-67-118-140.col.wideopenwest.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:18 -!- soylentbomb [~k@d149-67-118-140.col.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Changing host] 23:18 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:20 < jrayhawk> i think you might test positive for amphetamines 23:21 <@kanzure> that's not doping 23:21 < jrayhawk> testing positive for amphetamines is worse 23:22 <@kanzure> you are a terrible judge, who put you in charge 23:22 <@kanzure> ... do you accept bribes? 23:23 < jrayhawk> bribes of eyefinity cards 23:23 < jrayhawk> and JBODs 23:29 <@kanzure> did you see http://christmasexperiments.com/23/ ? 23:32 < jrayhawk> "Sorry! This demo requires WebGL and Web Audio support. Please use Google Chrome to view it." 23:32 <@kanzure> i thought firefox finally implemented the audio api? 23:32 <@kanzure> besides i thought you were using chromium 23:33 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:34 < jrayhawk> I use an HTML browser. 23:34 < nmz787> dont all browsers support HTML 23:34 < jrayhawk> Usually browsers support *more* than HTML. 23:34 < jrayhawk> This, in my reckoning, is a mistake. 23:38 < jrayhawk> to be fair, everything since gopher was a mistake, but i am willing to compromise 23:38 -!- Tabrenus [~Tabrenus@213.211.132.86.static.edpnet.net] has quit [Quit: Tabrenus] 23:43 < nmz787> so what's the point of christmasexperiments 23:44 < nmz787> what's it showcasing? 23:44 <@kanzure> webgl demoscene things 23:45 < nmz787> so it's all html5 or what? 23:45 <@kanzure> yes, javascript/html5 stuff 23:45 < jrayhawk> WebGL is something even crazier than html5 23:45 <@kanzure> http://christmasexperiments.com/23/js/ 23:45 < nmz787> pretty smooth 23:46 < nmz787> i was looking at clientside cropping and resizing using canvas elemtne 23:46 < nmz787> elements 23:46 < nmz787> but ttyl 23:46 < nmz787> sleepytime 23:46 < jrayhawk> it's like you're using postscript in the eighties! 23:46 < jrayhawk> or X11! also in the eighties! 23:47 <@kanzure> i wonder if adobe pdf supports webgl because of its support for javascript/html 23:47 <@kanzure> prolly not. even if you get an ie frame in there somehow, it's unlikely to work. 23:47 < jrayhawk> everything old is new again when your standards body is run by lunatics! --- Log closed Mon Feb 04 00:00:39 2013