--- Log opened Fri Feb 22 00:00:07 2013
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00:19 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | banned by the Federal Death Administration | 3.5 kidneys for sale | no questions asked
00:19 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Sat Feb  2 18:24:43 2013]
00:19 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
00:19 [@fenn         ] [ bkero          ] [ heath     ] [ NeuroWinter] [ sheena1     ] [ ThomasEgi  ] 
00:19 [@kanzure      ] [ brownies       ] [ HEx1      ] [ nmz787     ] [ Shehrazad   ] [ Thorbinator] 
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00:19 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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01:00 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2013/02/20/science.1230883.full.pdf
01:00 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/74213320c17fd8e69ae059968badcfa4.txt
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01:33 <@kanzure> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/710041985/2013_Version_21000_KVA_Industrial_Submerged.html
01:33 <@kanzure> "Shaanxi Zhonglong Metallurgical Equipment Co. Ltd. was established in May 2009, with registered capital of RMB 5,000,000 (USD$ 94,156) and fixed assets 10,762,300 (USD$1,709,390). "
01:33 <@kanzure> huh, that's not a lot of capital.
01:33 <@kanzure> i mean, for an electric arc furnace manufacturer.
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01:54 <@kanzure> "Dear Mr. Bishop, Your email below has been forwarded to me, as we cannot identify you as an athlete or official in the database. As you are not included in our list this year, could you perhaps clarify the reason for your request so that we can assist you efficiently?"
01:54 <@kanzure> perhaps my typing fame is not great enough.
01:54 <@kanzure> hmmm.
01:55 <@kanzure> maybe i need to make up an athlete and do some fake publicity
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08:00 < nmz787> whoo got this broken projecor working with an MSP430 launchpad!
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08:09 < delinquentme> banned by the Federal Death Administration
08:13 < delinquentme> http://transhumanity.net/articles/entry/bill-gates-really-wants-to-becomeimmortal
08:14 < Mariu> I don't think he was clear enough on that issue, or was he ?
08:30 -!- kanzure changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | banned by the Federal Death Administration | home of the free-ranging paperbots
08:30 < Mariu> :p
08:35 < sseehh_> http://mashable.com/2013/02/20/mark-zuckerberg-sergey-brin-breakthrough-prize/ opensource democratic immortality http://news.yahoo.com/iceland-facebook-constitution-closer-reality-101210718.html
08:36 < Mariu> neat
08:36 <@kanzure> man i hate the news
08:36 <@kanzure> Mariu: do you say anything other than lol
08:37 < Mariu> kanzure: not really
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08:42 < ParahSailin> kanzure: interesting article that you quoted
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08:50 < ParahSailin> kanzure: i wonder how many farmers were also smart enough to buy soybeans from a distributor (not under contract with monsanto), select out the roundup ready ones, and unlike bowman, not be a retard and tell monsanto that they were doing it
08:53 < chris_99> http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2013/9163.html
08:58 <@kanzure> .title
08:58 < yoleaux> Bristol University | News from the University | Floral signs go electric
08:58 < chris_99> i found that pretty amazing
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09:09 < sseehh_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_healing http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2013/9163.html learning the difference between two colours when electric wiki.opencog.org/w/DeSTIN
09:10 < Mariu> .title
09:10 < yoleaux> Crystal healing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
09:11 <@kanzure> sseehh_: linking to crystal healing and opencog sets off my troll alarms. please get the fuck out.
09:11 <@kanzure> Mariu: that title was obvious, why did you ask for it
09:11 <@kanzure> wikipedia hasn't changed their <title>s in years
09:12 <@kanzure> it's a function of the url
09:12 < Mariu> kanzure: got it. I was also curious about yoleaux .. didn't knew about it
09:22 < delinquentme> Mariu, thats the french yolo?
09:22 < Mariu> delinquentme: no idea
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09:28 < eudoxia> .wa mass of the Voyager 2 * distance between Adelaide and Montevideo
09:28 < yoleaux> Voyager 2: mass distance: from: Adelaide, South Australia, Australia; to: Montevideo, Uruguay: 5.825 million kg mi (kilogram miles); Unit conversions: 3.027×10⁷ lg tn ft (long ton-feet); 9226 lg tn km (long ton-kilometers); 5733 lg tn mi (long ton-miles); 9374 t km (metric ton-kilometers); 3.39×10⁷ sh tn ft (short ton-feet)
09:28 < eudoxia> gud, gud
09:28 < eudoxia> .botsnack
09:28 < yoleaux> :D
09:35 < ParahSailin> .title
09:35 < yoleaux> Crystal healing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
09:36 < ParahSailin> i guess i should have noticed that was the bot
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10:03 < klafka> wow that article on bill gates is awful
10:03 < klafka> just terrible
10:04 < klafka> well 'article'
10:04 < klafka> blog post
10:04 < Mariu> klafka: why ?
10:04 < klafka> 'bill gates said dont die but it sounds like he has no idea how'
10:04 < klafka> really?
10:04 < Mariu> yeah, that's the thing that bug?ed me as well
10:04 <@kanzure> that was just a reddit thing, it's bullshit
10:05 < klafka> his terse 2 word response makes you think that
10:05 <@kanzure> this is why i hate the news. stop posting it.
10:05 < klafka> i didn't post it
10:05 < klafka>  i don't post shit
10:05 <@kanzure> someone else did
10:05 <@kanzure> not you
10:05 < klafka> right
10:11 < nmz787> kanzure: i have this project asus_x1220h_fan_override_msp430
10:11 < nmz787> i want to add it to git
10:11 < nmz787> what's a better name?
10:11 <@kanzure> what's wrong with that name?
10:11 < nmz787> can you change a github repo later?
10:11 <@kanzure> what do you mean change?
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10:11 <@kanzure> rename?
10:12 <@kanzure> there is a github rename feature, but i don't understand your question about git
10:20 < nmz787> i just played my first movie on this hacked projector :P
10:21 < nmz787> focused at about 8cm wide
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11:26 < nmz787> spam https://github.com/nmz787/DLP-Projector-fan-and-lightbulb-override-msp430
11:26 <@kanzure> what is .ino?
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11:28 < klafka> i like when books give 'chapter dependence trees'
11:28 < klafka> it's sooooo nerdy but also useful
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11:44 < bkero> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Roko%27s_basilisk lul
11:44 < bkero> "The notion is taken sufficiently seriously by some LessWrong posters that they try to work out how to erase evidence of themselves so a future unfriendly AI can't reconstruct a copy of them to torture."
11:46 < Mariu> that happens when they get burried
11:50 <@kanzure> i'm not even sure where to begin with the list of reasons why they caring about that is useless.
11:50 <@kanzure> bkero: i recommend not bothering with lesswrong
11:51 < bkero> kanzure: I was just amused by that last part.
11:55 <@kanzure> huh, the petition about open access policies got a response
11:55 <@kanzure> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/increasing-public-access-results-scientific-research
11:56 <@kanzure> "To that end, I have issued a memorandum today (.pdf) to Federal agencies that directs those with more than $100 million in research and development expenditures to develop plans to make the results of federally-funded research publically available free of charge within 12 months after original publication."
11:56 <@kanzure> haha "and the need to ensure that the valuable contributions that the scientific publishing industry provides are not lost."
11:57 <@kanzure> michael nielsen replied, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5266065
11:57 <@kanzure> peter suber, https://plus.google.com/109377556796183035206/posts/8hzviMJeVHJ
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11:58 <@kanzure> directive: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/ostp_public_access_memo_2013.pdf
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12:16 <@fenn> roko's basilisk is like a fucked up version of pascal's wager
12:18 <@kanzure> obviously the correct strategy would be index poisoning, not data erasing
12:18 <@kanzure> but the whole point is messed up anyway
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12:19 <@fenn> it reminds me of the baptist hellfire preachers on TV
12:19 < ParahSailin> wait holy crap, did they actually do something with a petition?
12:19 < Vicarious> ohai
12:20 < ParahSailin> learning about the whole roko's basilisk thing is when i first realized there was something horribly wrong with LW and EY
12:20 <@fenn> was it really? i would have thought it was the "try to take over the world before anyone else does so we can institute eternal totalitarian friendliness"
12:21 <@fenn> anyway, the OSTP petition response is the most useful thing i've seen in a while
12:21 < ParahSailin> well that was the first thing that i personally heard of
12:21 <@kanzure> fenn: no, the problem is that that concept looks like a good idea if its your first-ever exposure to the concepts.
12:24 <@fenn> it just doesn't seem like a very good plan in the first place
12:24 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: yeah, this seems like positive response to a petition. i am particularly surprised because people were saying that there were some publisher shills on OSTP or something, and that they would block it.
12:25 < ParahSailin> is that the first ever actual response to a petition?
12:26 <@fenn> what does "undermine any right under the provisions of title 17 or 35
12:26 <@fenn> USC" mean?
12:27 <@kanzure> USC means US Code.. look it up i guess.
12:27 <@kanzure> http://www.copyright.gov/title17/
12:27 <@fenn> title 17 is the law concerning copyright, and 35 is patents
12:27 <@fenn> so does it just mean "this doesn't actually nullify copyright law or anything crazy"
12:28 <@kanzure> it's hard to tell. it might mean that the publishers get to keep a proprietary copyright to the article, separate to the public domain version?
12:28 < ParahSailin> i guess this is maybe a pressure relief valve after their doodz murdered one of our doodz
12:29 <@fenn> or mayb the president just doesn't give a fuck about publishers
12:30 <@kanzure> i doubt this was the president's decision to come up with this response
12:30 <@fenn> i have no idea how any of this actually works
12:31 <@kanzure> http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/ostp_public_access_memo_2013.pdf
12:33 <@fenn> ugh reading government speak makes my brain hurt
12:35 < ParahSailin> what do you think the chances of a random bag of soybeans from chinatown's gonna be monsanto roundup ready seeds
12:36 < sseehh_> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02/22/nasa-missile-defense-tech-leaked-to-china-sources-say/#ixzz2Lex4wLcN
12:39 <@fenn> nasa doesn't do missile defense, wtf are they on about
12:39 <@kanzure> sseehh_: i would appreciate it if you stop linking to these terrible things
12:40 < sseehh_> kanzure: im sorry maybe someone else can
12:42 < strangewarp> oh Roko's Basilisk. I think you'd have to have an incredibly cynical vision of the set of possible superhuman minds arising under possible topologies to believe that exists at any worrisome magnitude ...
12:45 <@kanzure> but even if it did exist, so what?
12:46 <@fenn> oh interesting, i know will marshall, he runs the rainbow mansion talks
12:46 < strangewarp> Well, if you're a cognitive materialist who is extremely cynical about the mind-space of possible AGI, then it's worrying. But I'm only the former, not the latter.
12:47 <@kanzure> god i hate what this channel has become
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13:04 < strangewarp> hahaha Yudkowsky is really terrifiedof Roko's Basilisk, wow
13:06 <@fenn> careful, admitting knowledge of the basilisk entitles it to punish you
13:07 <@fenn> oh noes i did it
13:07 < strangewarp> oh nooooo
13:07 <@fenn> now i have to delete all my profilez
13:08 <@fenn> goodbye cruel internet
13:20 < strangewarp> Resimulation based on derivations from online profiles / logs would be causal trade, not acausal trade, anyway. And.. I seem to be being a pedant, because that doesn't change the point much. Whoever wrote this rationalwiki page should be tapped across the knuckles though...
13:21 < strangewarp> Oh, well, if they meant it would resimulate every possibe mind that knows about the Basilisk, then that would be acausal trade, but ... I don't care, I'm so over this
13:21 <@fenn> the basilisk appreciates your comments
13:22 < strangewarp> heh
13:24 <@fenn> http://xkcd.com/380/
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13:34 <@kanzure> strange, i have to "save" in bios before linux will boot up past "Waiting for /dev to be fully populated"
13:36 <@kanzure> "What's needed is a single day of coordinated action. Where all scientists and researchers move to free publications in one big move."
13:36 <@kanzure> i somehow doubt that could be coordinated.
13:37 < jrayhawk> It might just be a factor of boot time; the idea is to wait for controllers to boot and settle.
13:37 <@kanzure> no, it never boots unless i go through bios and "save changes" (there were no changes)
13:39 <@kanzure> saurik: do you have a google glass device? i'm interested in getting my hands on one to start poking around at the internals.
13:40 <@kanzure> i mean, erm, the google scouter.
13:43 <@fenn> it could be a bad battery?
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13:44 <@kanzure> battery lasts forever (4 hours; could be better, but whatever)
13:45 <@kanzure> i'm not sure what google scouter is actually powered by, i thought it was probably bluetooth to an android phone that does most of the work
13:47 <@kanzure> "“When we ship this, we will have a cloud-based API that will allow developers to integrate with Glass, which enables a wide variety of Glass services while keeping a consistent user experience” Parviz confirms. “It’s the same API that we used to build the e-mail and calendar services that we test on Glass.""
13:47 <@kanzure> that sounds terrible.
13:47 <@kanzure> "With those APIs, developers will be able to deliver select data to a Glass user, rather than overwhelming them with all the information that might fit onto a typical smartphone screen. "
13:48 <@kanzure> overwhelming them? you mean make them die from dehydration, surely.
14:00 <@kanzure> i was thinking that if there's no api yet, it would be better to just give developers something to work with in the mean time, and then work on actual compatibility when the sdk emerges
14:03 <@fenn> i mean a bad bios battery, so your bios is uninitialized or somehow set wrong when you boot up, instead of whatever state the rom saves when you do save and exit
14:04 <@kanzure> this also happens when it sleeps, if that's helpful information.
14:05 <@fenn> personally i avoid google's interface whenever possible, i don't see that changing just because it's on a HUD. but hey i guess someone likes pointless whitespace
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14:06 <@kanzure> i'm trying to figure out who will be the first to get facial recognition working
14:08 <@fenn> facebook, obviously
14:09 <@kanzure> i see a lot of stuff about iphone apps that are able to recognize your friends... but who cares? you probably have <500 friends and i bet they look different. not useful.
14:10 <@fenn> what i'm getting from this video is that google glass will make me a skydiving trapeeze artist fashion model and parent who likes to do ice sculpture as a hobby
14:10 <@kanzure> your mistake is assuming that you should bother to watch a marketing video
14:11 <@fenn> i'm wondering if it does voice recognition onboard, is it totally useless without an internet connection?
14:12 <@kanzure> it seems that nobody has details out yet
14:12 <@kanzure> so, assume the worst
14:13 <@fenn> worst in this case requires a powerful imagination
14:14 <@fenn> Explorers will each need to pre-order a Glass Explorer Edition for $1500 plus tax and attend a special pick-up experience, in person, in New York, San Francisco or Los Angeles.
14:14 <@fenn> there's no way it costs them that much to make the beta models
14:14 <@kanzure> how about.. on-board gsm, no wifi, only wireless charging, no sdk, all interactions filtered through google.com, software is installed remotely (if at all)
14:14 <@kanzure> nah google is just bad at pricing
14:15 <@fenn> they didnt charge anything for the chrome books
14:15 <@fenn> it's essentially the same thing with a smaller battery and no keyboard :P
14:15 <@kanzure> they are trying to use price as a marketing signal or something
14:15 <@kanzure> "it's a premium product" etc.
14:16 <@fenn> i guess if you can't afford that you can't afford to go skydiving or whatever
14:16 <@kanzure> i'm pretty sure skydiving is $50ish per jump?
14:16 <@kanzure> "If you are looking to just make one tandem jump then you are looking at about $200 for the jump and $50 to $100 for video."
14:18 <@fenn> whatever happened to companies selling products to customers
14:18 <@fenn> why can't i just buy a fucking LCOS display
14:19 <@kanzure> it would be really easy to sell a person recognition system to anyone in sales or politics
14:20 <@fenn> not if it makes you look like a dork
14:20 <@kanzure> the problem can be simplified by only recognizing individuals that are using the same device/service (based on gps/their location data, instead of the weird way that 'bump' requires you to meet with people)
14:21 <@kanzure> people would pay more for recognizing people "out of network"
14:22 <@kanzure> well, if it makes them look like a dork, maybe the pirate patch will catch on again. who knows.
14:22 <@fenn> if people are using the device you can just use bluetooth or wifi or whatever
14:23 <@fenn> no need for facial recognition in that case
14:24 <@kanzure> oh, wifi fingerprinting to find someone in a crowd. that would be neat.
14:24 <@kanzure> or i mean, for two individuals to find each other in a crowd.
14:25 <@fenn> dear google i plan to mount my glass to my AR-15 babykiller and ask for directions to the nearest elementary school
14:25 <@kanzure> still, the usefulness of that system is really only when it can 1) identify people you've never met, 2) identify people who aren't signed up with whatever awful thing you're using, and 3) work offline at least a little bit.
14:26 <@fenn> i dont think recognizing out of network faces offline is feasible or to be expected
14:27 <@kanzure> i think it is feasible (in a "it would take a tremendous amount of work, but it would be possible" way) for when you know where you are going in advance (like a conference) that has a public listing of who the hell is attending.
14:27 <@fenn> nah, maybe in five years we'll have the flops/joule but as it is, just detecting the faces takes all the CPU you can throw at it
14:27 <@fenn> in a crowd at least
14:28 <@fenn> also consider that nobody tags faces when they're pointing away from the camera
14:29 <@fenn> so you'd essentially be forced to use data gathered from on-device head tracking
14:29 <@fenn> otherwise how would you ever know what so and so looks like from the side
14:29 <@kanzure> even with a fast internet connection, person recognition is going to take at least a few seconds.. it would be awkward to just be sitting there making small talk until you remember who the hell a person is.
14:29 <@fenn> i dont see why it should take a few seconds
14:29 <@kanzure> yeah i haven't thought about data gathering. it would be nice to have facebook/linkedin's data, but i don't have that.
14:30 <@kanzure> because the minimum ping to google is 50ms or something stupid (9ms if you're on a good network). add up the roundtrip cost..
14:30 <@fenn> that's still less than a tenth of a second in network overhead
14:30 <@kanzure> well, let's add it up?
14:32 <@fenn> this is sort of like asking "how long is a string"
14:32 <@kanzure> i think an estimate is a reasonable thing to do
14:32 <@kanzure> let's say that you turn your head in a direction and see a person 3 feet from you, with a beautiful smile.
14:32 <@fenn> it depends on how many faces you're searching through, how they're sorted/hashed, how many nodes you have to compute with, what the data rate is between user, server, server, and god knows what API calls you have to make
14:33 <@kanzure> first frame in the mpeg stream is done being collected in, uh, some amount of time (i don't even know what's reasonable here.. 10 ms?)
14:33 <@fenn> opencv can do real-time face detection, so 1/30 s = 33ms
14:33 <@kanzure> no that's detecting whether or not a face exists in the photo
14:33 <@fenn> correct
14:34 <@fenn> you have to detect a face before uploading it
14:34 <@fenn> otherwise you're just constantly uploading crap
14:34 <@kanzure> what about just uploading everything? i dunno if that would be better.
14:35 <@fenn> hm. seems like you'd lose somehow on resolution/compression
14:35 <@fenn> also consider the power requirement of constantly sending data over wifi
14:35 <@kanzure> phones are already doing that and i think battery technology is going to improve
14:36 <@fenn> phones are much better at downloading than uploading because you can have gigantic grid powered antenna arrays at the telco station
14:36 <@kanzure> i mean over wifi
14:36 <@fenn> same principle applies
14:36 <@kanzure> also, even just 1 hour of this system at full throttle would be very neat.
14:37 <@fenn> sure, but what's the point of trying to recognize the backs of peoples' heads?
14:37 <@kanzure> that's where the barcode is, you just have to look harder..
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14:37 < saurik> kanzure: no
14:38 <@fenn> too bad the paranoid schizos aren't right more often, this would be so much easier if we all had the mark of the beast
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14:38 <@kanzure> saurik: ok, thanks.
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14:39 <@kanzure> fenn: i guess even if the full round trip was 1 or even 2 seconds, that would still be better. the majority of the time, i don't know a person. i know only a fraction of the 7 billion people, so this system would be a few billion times better than the current situation. :P
14:40 <@fenn> maybe of interest, i have this file i'm not sure where it came from, possibly steve mann? shows a highly edited stream of faces from some computer vision conference: http://fennetic.net/irc/face001.mp4
14:40 <@fenn> turn down the sound before watching
14:43 <@fenn> hm probably not steve mann because the camera isn't at eye level
14:55 <@fenn> probably from this thing http://www.robots.ox.ac.uk/~bob/research/research_wearables.html
15:00 <@kanzure> network connections are usually congested during conferences anyway, hrm
15:03 <@fenn> assuming you could compute the face matrix (set of eigenfaces) on-board, it wouldn't take that much storage space for all the people in the world
15:04 <@fenn> say each face has 100 bytes of uniquely identifying features, that's "only" 800GB
15:05 < archels> http://www.kurzweilai.net/2013-world-congress-in-computer-science-computer-engineering-applied-computing
15:05 < archels> wait, I thought WORLDCOMP had been called out as bullshit?
15:06 <@fenn> looks like real life systems require about 50 bytes per face
15:07 <@kanzure> archels: yes, it's bullshit. so is kurzweilai.net..
15:09 <@fenn> eigenfaces are the stuff of nightmares
15:10 < archels> haha
15:10  * archels sleeps
15:13 < rigel> i saw a great twitter thing today
15:13 < rigel> "transhumanism wants to be scientology when it grows up"
15:15 <@kanzure> rigel: that's not very productive
15:15 <@fenn> are you a troll
15:15 < ThomasEgi> scientrollogy ?
15:16 <@fenn> operation clambait
15:16 < ThomasEgi> is trollscience involved?
15:23 < rigel> i know, i just thought it was funny
15:35 < strangewarp> rigel: Found the tweet in question. Not surprised that the guy behind it namechecks Dale Carrico in a positive way in the same line.
15:37 < strangewarp> Dale Carrico epitomizes everything that's wrong with the reform-before-technology crowd.
15:37 < strangewarp> blah.
15:40 <@fenn> this is the "feed the starving children in africa before going to the moon" argument?
15:41 < strangewarp> basically yeah. Also he's decided the transhumanist project, in every form, is a cult, because .. something something serious grown-up intellectual with realistic concerns something something.
15:42 <@fenn> he likes to use big words
15:43 < strangewarp> I'd say he's a comedic study in the power of signalling, except so many people take him seriously, ugh.
15:44 < Urchin[emacs]> those are the problems of treating X as a literary genre
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15:44 < Urchin[emacs]> whatever X is (unless it's an acutal literary genre, of course)
15:45 < Urchin[emacs]> though I have encountered cultic transhumanists
15:46 <@fenn> every group of humans larger than three is a cult, get over it
15:46 <@kanzure> cult of one
15:46 < Urchin[emacs]> no, it's not
15:48 < Urchin[emacs]> cults have a fairly consistent set of traits that mark them as such
15:50 < Urchin[emacs]> so not every group fits, far from it
15:50 <@fenn> wikipedia defines it as a "group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre by the larger society"
15:50 < Urchin[emacs]> though you will find a crazy worshiper in just about any group
15:50 < strangewarp> ...Hm. Maybe this is why Yudkowsky so vehemently opposes Roko's basilisk, even though he says it's unlikely. He doesn't want people panicking about sin and giving him every last cent of their money.
15:51 <@fenn> i'm sure yudkowsky wouldn't mind if people gave him every last cent. the problem with the basilisk is it's too similar to russel's teapot; it exposes the infinite AI boogeyman for being the bad argument that it is
15:52 < strangewarp> Oh indeed, I'm not saying he would be doing it out of altruism, I'm saying it would look terrible to an outside observer if people were dumping all their cash on him out of fear.
15:52 <@fenn> that's already how it looks to an outsider
15:52 < strangewarp> Well, explicit fear, anyway. Low-level fear is already the case.. yeah
15:54 < Urchin[emacs]> giving money is one thing, but a guy who castrates himself because singularity is near is a completely different thing (and it has happened)
15:54 <@fenn> people don't donate to SIAI (or whatever it's called now) because they think it's the best way to make magical AI overlords appear, they do it out of fear that evil AI overlords will appear if they don't
15:55  * strangewarp nods
15:55 < Urchin[emacs]> I'm not sure that that's the case
15:55 <@fenn> Urchin[emacs]: link?
15:56 < Urchin[emacs]> I do know some people in a neighboring country that donated to siai but they were singularitarians interested in benefit to themselves
15:56 < Urchin[emacs]> I have not donated
15:57 < Urchin[emacs]> fenn: do you have a study on the reasons for donating to SIAI yourself?
15:57 <@fenn> please provide further references to above anecdote regarding castration and the singularity
15:59 < Urchin[emacs]> the stuff about castaration was on the old betterhumans site (might still exist in some kind of archive somewhere, but the site is defunct for years)
15:59 < juri_> i'm a singularist (in a loose sense, also a taoist). and i just don't want kids.
16:00 < klafka> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/increasing-public-access-results-scientific-research
16:00 < juri_> nasty little buggers would always be getting in the way of my crazy projects.
16:01 < Urchin[emacs]> http://posthumanblues.blogspot.com/2006/03/how-my-castration-relates-to.html
16:01 < juri_> 'MOM! little jimmy's got himself stuck in the vacuum chamber again!'
16:01 < juri_> "good. maybe now he'll understand what i feel like when my blood is boiling."
16:01 < Urchin[emacs]> wait, again?
16:03 < juri_> I've owned two chambers in my life, and am building a third. by the time my kids could talk, i'm imagining my house would be filled with the things.
16:03 <@fenn> hey we know how to use the internet here http://web.archive.org/web/20100524154905/http://www.betterhumans.com/blogs/cybert/archive/2006/03/20/5117.aspx
16:03 < juri_> but, it would be filled with less of them, if i had kids. and that's a problem.
16:05 <@fenn> i love that "marduk" is posting on that thread
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16:07 <@fenn> oh wait, i'm thinking "zardoz"
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16:10 < strangewarp> Well, I might pursue castration eventually, but that would be for gender-identity reasons seperate from my transhumanist concerns.
16:10 <@fenn> well anyway i would say castration is about as transhumanist as lepht_anon's hand-stabbing (which is to say, not at all)
16:14 < Urchin[emacs]> I sort of like my genitals
16:14 < Urchin[emacs]> it's the whole being human that I have a problem with
16:21 < strophariad> Gigolo Joe?
16:27 <@fenn> bleh i give up. if anyone finds a survey explaining why people have donated to SIAI let me know
16:45  * strophariad would rather donate to Roger Williams: http://localroger.com/prime-intellect/
16:47 <@fenn> there's always the math mines, for when you run out of war, famine, etc
16:47 <@fenn> oh noes the internet doesn't know my meme
16:48 <@fenn> mathematics research, called "truth mining" in the future. Especially in this "new world" where everyone is literally a computer, one might expect that math research would have been completely automated to the point that it does not involve consciousness or creativity. However, at least according to the wise old virtual being in the book, this will never be the case. Math research requires some
16:49 <@fenn> intuition, and discovery requires having a different outlook than those who came before you.
16:51 <@fenn> strophariad: is this prime intellect really worth reading?
16:51 < strophariad> that reminds me of hearing a few years ago how some group mined the news-tickers at the bottom of CNN, FOX, etc., claiming to have uncovered classified military operations or somesuch. tho I imagine language-processing will be just as important as raw number-crunching.
16:52 <@fenn> data mining is not the same thing at all
16:53 < strophariad> I'm very glad I read it, tho I don't know the singularity-ficiton genre as well as I imagine many here do. it's very dark, requiring at least as much suspension of moral distaste as it does disbelief. blurs the line between utopia and dystopia in some thoughtful ways.
16:54 < strophariad> just saying X reminds me of Y, how my mind tends to work, or not :-)
16:54 <@fenn> you should read some greg egan if you liked it
16:55 < strophariad> sounds interesting, based on his wikipedia description
16:56 <@fenn> there's the general problem of trying to communicate the day to day existence and thoughts of acorporeal beings
16:56 < strophariad> or even to recognize them, I suspect
16:56 <@fenn> so the genre will necessarily return to the crutch of the humanoid narrator
16:57 < strophariad> ah
16:57 <@fenn> but so far this "prime intellect" is not much better than Siri or the talking paperclip
16:58 < strophariad> well, tMMoPI has a third-person omniscient narrator, and the main character's foremost motivation is her resentment of the supreme being
16:58 < rigel> oh, just so we're clear, i share some goals with transhumanists but an quite opposed to others. I also think that the argument you've characterized carrico as making does carry some weight. certainly it's not the whole ballgame.
16:59 < rigel> also, everything ray kurzweil says outside of a narrow engineering framework is garbage
16:59 < rigel> and in 30 years people will point and laugh at his naivete
16:59 < rigel> (they already do)
16:59 < rigel> but hes also an easy target
16:59 <@fenn> but it's such great television
17:00 <@fenn> why be right when you can be entertaining
17:00 < strophariad> Terence McKenna knew that well, and bowed out gracefully before he could be proven wrong :-)
17:00 < rigel> terence was more of a bard than a scientist
17:01 < rigel> like a 90/10 kind of "more"
17:01 < strophariad> yes
17:01 < rigel> i have certainly tripped the fuck out on some shit he was saying because holy crap that shit is heavy man
17:01 < strophariad> He was an ethnobotanist, a psychedelics connoisseur, a technoshaman futurist, a lecturer and raconteur.
17:01 < rigel> but it's also garbage
17:02 < strophariad> a myth-maker :-)
17:02 < rigel> its feel-good shamanism
17:02 < rigel> pop shamanism
17:02 < rigel> which is fine i guess, until you have people like fucking sting going on about ayahuasca and tantra
17:02 <@fenn> sting!
17:02 < strangewarp> yeah, it would be comfortable if Kurzweil were right, but he only seems to be about 35% right on a regular basis, judging from an analysis LessWrong did of his various predictions... (I don't have much love for LessWrong either, mind, but that post wasuseful)
17:03 < strangewarp> *was useful
17:03 < strophariad> well, sort of feel-good, if telling people they can expect the species to become another smear in the shale without something like what he hoped would happen is popular or uplifting
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17:05 < rigel> i mean, you take a look at his shit about the king wen series of hexagrams and tell me that's not either a gigantic elaborate put-on or the ramblings of someone fairly well brain damaged
17:05 < rigel> probably both
17:05 < rigel> (terence, i mean)
17:06 < strophariad> probably both. he spoke a lot of bullshit, probably without even fully recognizing it as such, but it was some of the most erudite silver-tongued imaginative bullshit I've encountered :-)
17:06 < rigel> the used car salesman-cum-guru archetype, he certainly was that
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17:08 < strophariad> even as he told people to think for themselves and despised the "white man with all the answers at the front of the room" image
17:10 < strangewarp> I think it's interesting that Google hired him to manage a development team for a long-shot project of some sort, though. While he's kooky, I'm interested to see what they accomplish.
17:11 <@fenn> are you talking about kurzweil or mckenna?
17:11 < strangewarp> Kurzweil
17:11  * strophariad awaits more from project glass
17:11  * fenn awaits nothing surprising from project glass
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17:12 <@fenn> maybe they'll even come up with an augmented reality cookbook, for DIY cooking!
17:13 < strangewarp> At some point I need cheap HUD glasses of some sort with a user-friendly graphics API, just so I don't have to be looking down-and-diagonally at my custom music software on a computer screen while singing.. blah :P
17:13 < strophariad> they got my hopes up somewhat, having been imagining the transformative possibilities of AR since first hearing about Steve Mann ard 2003. as limited as the vision in their promotional videos are, they're still the most inspiring I've seen.
17:14 < strophariad> in contrast, a couple years ago when Intel made a press-release about their new AR lab, it was even more hum-drum. "here's a gadget that will monitor your fridge and tell you what recipes you can make with the food you have!"
17:15 <@fenn> strangewarp: have you considered a projector system like sixth sense?
17:15  * strangewarp googles that...
17:15 <@fenn> you'll probably want to use a camera to do hand tracking anyway
17:15 < Urchin[emacs]> I want hud glasses that correct my eyesight and conceal my eyes
17:16 < strangewarp> Oh yeah, I already control it with a custom instrument, it just has an additional GUI on the computer screen that I'd much prefer to pipe through to a HUD of some kind
17:18 < Urchin[emacs]> I have looked into doing something like Steve Mann's stuff, but I don't have much skill with electronic circuts and stuff like that
17:19 <@fenn> there aren't very many wide angle displays available, and those that exist are pretty low resolution
17:19 <@fenn> even the "oculus rift" will be quite pixellated
17:20 < strangewarp> The Oculus Rift would be more than enough for my purposes, heh
17:20 <@fenn> i'm pretty pissed that there's still no consumer virtual retinal display
17:20 <@fenn> also the low light performance of small cameras leaves a lot to be desired
17:21 < strangewarp> Still, I've got to find something that doesn't totally obscure vision, since I'd of course be using it on stage, and looking at the lights and dials on my instruments as well..
17:21 <@fenn> larger cameras tend to be expensive and hard to interface with
17:21 <@fenn> strangewarp: why not just get an old myvu
17:22  * strangewarp googles that too...
17:25 < Urchin[emacs]> I found the exeamples on the wiki page interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyetap
17:26 <@fenn> i want to know where to get a miniature "heat sensor"
17:30 < sylph_mako> fenn, fuck yes, VRDs are what I'm hanging out for.
17:30 < sylph_mako> Any idea what's going on with that these days?
17:31 <@fenn> microvision licensed the tech to brother (of inkjet printer fame) who have been farting around doing nothing significant as far as i can tell
17:31 <@fenn> i'm considering building my own from scratch
17:32 <@fenn> it's really rather simple technology as long as you dont have to build your own RGB laser from scratch
17:32 <@fenn> fortunately for us the TI pico projector has one premade
17:33 <@fenn> monochrome will do fine though
17:34 <@fenn> here's one way to do it: www-personal.umich.edu/~awtar/PHD/TLO_scanner1.pdf
17:35 <@fenn> here's a much more low tech way to do it http://laserpointerforums.com/f47/homemade-scanning-laser-color-projector-tv-32628.html
17:36 < sylph_mako> Hahahah. are you sure this is safe.
17:36 <@fenn> the part i dont know how to deal with yet is that the eye doesn't orbit around the pupil, so the pupil actually moves off axis
17:36 <@fenn> it might be as simple as projecting onto a half silvered concave mirror
17:37 < sylph_mako> One of the things I find exciting about this technology is that you end up packaging on eye-tracking along with it- well, if that didn't work.
17:37 <@fenn> you definitely want a safety interlock in case the mirror stops moving, but that's fairly simple to implement.
17:38 < Urchin[emacs]> fenn: the diagram on wiki is actually for night vision goggles
17:40 <@fenn> alright i can't read this crap anymore, they're giving serious consideration to asimov's laws of robotics
17:40 <@kanzure> for whatever it's worth i have a full history of most donations to siai from 200x-2009ish
17:40 <@kanzure> if anyone wants that data (off the record)
17:42 <@fenn> does it have a comments field attached?
17:44 <@kanzure> fenn: the reason you should be interested in glass is because you will have more friends writing software for you.
17:46 <@kanzure> rigel: you are grossly misinformed if you think that kurzweil can actually do any of those things.
17:48 <@kanzure> http://www.breakthroughprizeinlifesciences.org/
17:48 <@kanzure> "The Breakthrough Prize in Life Sciences is founded by Art Levinson, Sergey Brin, Anne Wojcicki, Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan, and Yuri Milner to recognize excellence in research aimed at curing intractable diseases and extending human life"
17:49 < strangewarp> I'll probably eventually end up using Glass (or a Glass knockoff, or possibly a secondhand MyVu) and a RasPi + USB hub on stage, instead of a laptop... hmm
17:49 <@kanzure> neat they game money to yamanaka
17:49 <@kanzure> *gave
17:50 <@kanzure> i don't recognize all of the names on http://www.breakthroughprizeinlifesciences.org/laureates
17:51 <@kanzure> fenn: no it does not have a comments field
17:54 <@fenn> "Lawrence realized that he had not really created Prime Intellect to make the world a better place. He had created it to prove he could do it, to bask in the glory, and to prove himself the equal of God. He had created for the momentary pleasure of personal success, and he had not cared about the distant outcome."
17:54 <@fenn> le sigh
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17:54 <@fenn> kanzure you are assuming they will let people write native apps
17:55 < strophariad> fenn: not that motivation you would have given him?
17:55 < strophariad> -that +the
17:55 <@fenn> strophariad: it's just bad writing, ignores "show dont tell"
17:55 < strophariad> yes, it's very first-drafty, but still thoughtful, imo, if not as well-crafted as it could be
17:56 <@fenn> and the whole faster than light speed chip thing is just unnecessary
17:59 < strophariad> and iirc, it does do some showing later, a chapter devoted to the design and emergence of Prime Intellect
17:59 <@kanzure> fenn: yes, and even if they don't, there should be a free software effort.
18:01 <@fenn> i haven't seen shit for free software on android
18:01 <@fenn> there's more free software for the amiga
18:02 <@fenn> maybe i'm spoiled
18:08 <@kanzure> linux installs just fine
18:08 < strophariad> I'd be happy with BASIC on my dumbphone.
18:08 <@kanzure> why would you buy a crippled phone? that seems silly.
18:14 <@kanzure> me ranting about sourceforge http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5268220
18:14 < strophariad> dumbphone = cripped phone?
18:14 < strophariad> *crippled
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18:16 < SphericalMouse> sup?
18:17 <@kanzure> strophariad: yes
18:17 <@kanzure> strophariad: geek things about myvu, i guess.
18:18 <@kanzure> oops, wrong person
18:18 < strophariad> kanzure: oh. well, my facetious remark abt Basic aside, it does what I need it to do, and I don't see a point in spending upwards of three figures a month for more bells and whistles
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18:18 < strophariad> well, there you are, anyway :-)
18:19 <@kanzure> strophariad: smartphones cost <$50 these days.
18:19 <@kanzure> i think you're bad at math
18:19 < strophariad> and the plan? the internet-access that would be the only reason to have one?
18:19 <@kanzure> these phones tend to be wifi capable
18:20 < strophariad> and?
18:20 <@kanzure> those 3 figure plans are just for people who want to pay that, the phones still work without those plans -_-
18:20 <@kanzure> you can use totally different plans if you want.. why would the phone care?
18:20 < strophariad> k, so my phone is crippled for not having wifi access? a keyboard?
18:21 <@kanzure> these phones are bluetooth capable too, so you just use your regular keyboard
18:21 <@kanzure> i think you're making this harder than it is
18:21 < strophariad> so are many dumbphones
18:21 < strophariad> incl mine
18:21 < strophariad> not that I need it
18:21 <@kanzure> but why would you want a phone that doesn't run linux?
18:22 < SphericalMouse> ~lolz~
18:22 < strophariad> heh, why would I want one that does? or a laptop, for that matter? what has having linux on your phone gained you?
18:22 <@kanzure> millions of man hours of industrial civilization at my fingertips
18:22 <@kanzure> and package management
18:23 < SphericalMouse> frankly, if a phone can't shitpost for you automatically, what is the point?
18:23 <@kanzure> shitwhat?
18:23 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
18:24 < SphericalMouse> Are you claiming to be unaware of shitposting?
18:24 <@kanzure> trolling?
18:24 <@kanzure> you can do that from a dumbphone too, i don't see the point
18:24 < SphericalMouse> trolling is different than shitposting
18:26 <@fenn> please enlighten us savages
18:26 < SphericalMouse> http://forums.somethingawful.com/dictionary.php?act=3&topicid=2362
18:27 <@fenn> wants me to register
18:27 < SphericalMouse> hmm
18:27 <@fenn> urban dictionary defines it as, "In general, being a bad person."
18:28 <@fenn> how is this different from trolling again?
18:28 < SphericalMouse> shitposting is low content but offensive posting. trolling is more designed to provoke someone into enraged response.
18:28 <@fenn> sounds like it's just a lame excuse for not being good at trolling
18:29 <@kanzure> i demand an honorary somethingawful membership
18:29 < SphericalMouse> they serve different purposes
18:29 < bkero> I have actual somethingawful membership.
18:29 < SphericalMouse> pay your 10bux
18:29 < yashgaroth> bkero can I touch it
18:29 < bkero> no
18:30 -!- wizroafk [~userdi@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
18:30 < abetusk> http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/ostp_public_access_memo_2013.pdf
18:34  * strophariad awaits the hplustomtom from his higher-tech acqauintances here
18:35 <@kanzure> awaits what ?
18:35 <@kanzure> abetusk: check the logs from earlier
18:36 < strophariad> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom
18:36 <@kanzure> SphericalMouse: i have resisted paying for somethingawful for >10 years. i am not about to break now.
18:36 < SphericalMouse> but think of the shitposting
18:37 < SphericalMouse> what advantages do is there with an ethernet over a USB data tranfer system?
18:37 < SphericalMouse> i fear the wine has a hold on my brain again
18:38 <@kanzure> well, most usb ports are probably usb2 at this point, and usb3 isn't widely deployed yet..
18:38 < SphericalMouse> so?
18:38 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:38 <@kanzure> well you're not going to get 20 MB/sec on usb2, but you could conceivably get that on ethernet.
18:39 < SphericalMouse> we were thinking of using a usb system for the fluid robot to control the various sub units. partly because arduino has that standard. its not like you need extreme bandwidth there
18:39 <@kanzure> oh wait. usb2 was supposed to work up to 60 MB/sec.
18:39 <@kanzure> SphericalMouse: what about linuxcnc?
18:39 < SphericalMouse> the cubespawn guy claims to aim for an ehternet data bus
18:40 <@kanzure> i think ethernet is fine, but it shouldn't really matter.. just put a computer in front of the machine, and just interface with the machine, right?
18:40 < SphericalMouse> I know nothing about that, but it looks like software, not hardware
18:41 < SphericalMouse> basically
18:41 <@kanzure> what is the specific problem you are solving ?
18:42 < SphericalMouse> we want to run various pieces of equipment from a central machine. mostly those will be simple commands or low amounts of data
18:43 < SphericalMouse> cubespawn seems to want to do continuous data and image analysis
18:43 < SphericalMouse> mostly, we don't care about images, except for microscopy purposes
18:43 < SphericalMouse> probably never real time image based control systems
18:44 <@kanzure> if your only options are ethernet and usb, then i would recommend ethernet.
18:45 < SphericalMouse> well, most arduinos don't have ethernet built in
18:45 <@kanzure> then don't use arduino
18:45 < SphericalMouse> so, should we find other solutions that do? find compatables that do?
18:46 <@kanzure> use a computer. like a pc.
18:46 <@kanzure> fenn: can you make me sound less crazy here?
18:46 < SphericalMouse> we will have a pc as the main controller, fo rsure
18:47 < SphericalMouse> but if we have some thermal cycler, for example, we probably want that to locally have some sort of onboard controller
18:50 < Urchin[emacs]> raspberry pi?
18:51 < SphericalMouse> a pi is complete overkill for something that is supposed to drive something up and down in temperature
18:58 -!- wizrobe [~userdi@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
18:58 < strophariad> anyone here experiment with tDCS?
18:59 <@kanzure> a few people, yes. i forget who exactly.
18:59 <@kanzure> i suggest ultrasound instead of tdcs if you're considering your options.
19:00 < strophariad> would you recommend some resources on that?
19:02 <@kanzure> strophariad: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/
19:02 <@kanzure> and tdcs things: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/tdcs/
19:02 < strophariad> thanks much
19:05 <@fenn> i dont see any point in using USB for robot control if you have GPIO at your disposal
19:05 <@fenn> ethernet makes a better realtime network bus because it's simpler
19:06 <@fenn> also it's designed for multipoint and has better electrical characteristics
19:06 <@fenn> usb has a nominal max of what, three meters?
19:07 <@kanzure> what about just using full motherboards instead of just arduinos? am i making things up here?
19:07 <@fenn> anyway if all you want to do is turn a relay on and off, use the "digital IO" pins on the arduino
19:08 <@kanzure> the problem with arduino is that there's no package infrastructure
19:08 <@kanzure> and people end up rewriting a lot of firmware
19:08 <@fenn> hm. okay raspberry pi then
19:09 <@kanzure> i didn't even look at what ports are available on raspberry pi.
19:09 <@fenn> arduino does have various hardware advantages, like ADCs, timers, and hardware support for various serial protocols
19:09 <@fenn> and TTL
19:10 <@fenn> pi is 3.3V so you need level shifting for a lot of things
19:10 < nmz787> if you want long range and low bandwidth you should consider RS485
19:10 < nmz787> level shifting is easy though, why do so many people complain about it?
19:11 < nmz787> not saying you're complaining fenn
19:11 <@fenn> because it's one more chip to deal with
19:11 < nmz787> but 1 more
19:11 <@kanzure> if there was some package manager for arduino things, i would feel better about it
19:13 <@fenn> i'm not sure it makes sense to have a package manager for a device which only does one thing at a time
19:13 < nmz787> the arduino website seems pretty searchable to me
19:13 < nmz787> i guess they might not have a central code repo
19:13 < nmz787> parallax does though for the propeller
19:13 <@kanzure> it's not about searchable
19:13 <@fenn> a code repo isnt quite the same thing
19:13 <@kanzure> searchability isn't the point at all
19:14 < nmz787> but there generally aren't dependencies for arduino stuff that isn't in the same file
19:14 <@kanzure> libraries have dependencies all the time
19:15 < nmz787> yeah but they're a few files, not 10s or 100s
19:15 < nmz787> for the arduino*
19:15 <@fenn> this boils down to static vs dynamic libraries
19:16 <@fenn> the real magic of a package manager is that things can be upgraded and still work
19:16 <@kanzure> so what.. you guys just copy and paste code from some library into your project, and pray that it doesn't break or just pretend upstream never updates?
19:16 <@fenn> i think most arduino code never gets upgraded
19:17 <@kanzure> or distributed :P
19:19 < nmz787> generally upstream isn't changing within a processor type
19:19 < nmz787> so if a new chip comes out in the processor family, you generally just switch the pinout and muxing... which all easily fits in one file
19:20 < nmz787> otherwise most operations are standard C
19:21 <@kanzure> i mean, there should still be libawful-dev packages to put files in the right place
19:21 <@kanzure> or how npm works (local repo management, unless you force global system-wide with -G)
19:21 <@kanzure> upstream should change though- there's no reason to assume that the first version is the best thing ever
19:22 <@kanzure> fenn: why is there all this dumb culture around microcontroller programming anyway?
19:22 <@kanzure> fenn: i mean, there's a linux/embedded community that seems to be sane. but why is all this other crap broken?
19:22 < nmz787> there are lots of arduino git projects
19:23 <@kanzure> so you just include everything as a submodule ?
19:24 <@kanzure> *as separate git submodules ?
19:28 <@kanzure> so far npm has been rather nice to work with. bundler is okay but it gets very slow.
19:28 <@fenn> kanzure: arduino is popular because it's an offshoot of processing, which was invented for dumb people
19:29 <@fenn> or perhaps i should say stupid people
19:29 <@fenn> anyway, there's plenty of C and C++ out there that's not "arduino" but runs fine on the arduino hardware
19:30 <@kanzure> oh, good point
19:31 <@fenn> but it's not even in the slackware stage yet, there's no need for an operating system and it would just waste space and cpu in most applications
19:32 <@kanzure> what would waste space?
19:32 <@fenn> the ram and flash required to run and store the OS
19:32 <@kanzure> for C?
19:32 <@fenn> we're talking about tens of bytes of ram here
19:33 <@kanzure> but why?
19:33 <@fenn> i dont know
19:33 <@kanzure> oh no your $200 liquid handler needs a $5 computer... big deal ?
19:33 <@fenn> it would seem that ram should be nearly unlimited, and yet it isn't. i don't know the rationale behind this
19:35 <@fenn> maybe ThomasEgi knows
19:35 <@kanzure> what's the argument against wiring up a thermocycler to something that runs linux?
19:36 <@fenn> lack of ADC, less ruggedness and need for level shifting. i think that's about it
19:36 < ThomasEgi> what what?
19:36 <@fenn> ThomasEgi: why do avr's have such pathetically small amounts of ram?
19:37 < ThomasEgi> because they are _micro_ controllers
19:37 < ThomasEgi> they controll stuff
19:38 <@fenn> but ram is so easy to make, and you can only chop chips up so small before you get diminishing returns
19:38 < ThomasEgi> they don't handle databases or flashy gui's
19:38 < ThomasEgi> yeah and.. how exactly are you going to address all that ram with an 8bit bus?
19:38 <@fenn> are microcontrollers cheap because they use outdated manufacturing processes?
19:39 <@kanzure> bank switching :P
19:39 < ThomasEgi> .... ahm. are you a bit.. dense or so?
19:39 < ThomasEgi> they are small. efficient, simple, modular circuits for controlling stuff.
19:39 <@kanzure> fenn: i suppose another reason to not just use a pc is if you need microsecond timing resolution. besides just adc and level shifting.
19:40 < ThomasEgi> indeed
19:40 < ThomasEgi> not only micro, but even nanoseconds
19:40 <@kanzure> but i don't think you need microsecond timing for most lab automation.
19:40 <@fenn> apparently the atmega328 has 1824 bytes of ram, which implies something like bank switching is going on
19:41 < ThomasEgi> yeah have fun witching those by slamming in 4GB of ram.
19:41 <@fenn> anyway it would be faster to copy all the flash memory into ram and talk to it over serial than the current practice of running code straight from flash
19:41 < ThomasEgi> no really. they are that small because there is simply no need for them to be any bigger
19:42 < ThomasEgi> what was the inital problem about anyway?
19:43 <@fenn> there's not any cheap rugged hardware interface that runs linux
19:43 <@fenn> and all the associated gnu tools that we've been spoiled with
19:43 < ThomasEgi> why do you need to run linux on an interface?
19:43 <@fenn> to simplify hardware dependencies
19:43 < ThomasEgi> that makes no sense?
19:43 <@fenn> um, so i dont need two "things"
19:43 < ThomasEgi> a hardware interface without hardware dependencies?
19:44 < ThomasEgi> i mean.. this _is_ hardware. you are depending on it. there is no way not to.
19:44 <@fenn> like, i could run code on a raspberry pi, but it doesn't have good i/o the way an avr does
19:44 < ThomasEgi> then use the avr right away
19:45 < ThomasEgi> where's the problem?
19:45 <@fenn> but the avr has a crappy (nonexistent) OS
19:45 < ThomasEgi> it is a microcontroller
19:45 < ThomasEgi> there is no os at all. and why should it
19:45 <@fenn> it can't download code from the internet and self-update
19:45 < ThomasEgi> actually you can
19:46 < ThomasEgi> you'd have to add an apropriate interface and a bootloader for it . but it is overkill
19:46 < ThomasEgi> microcontrollers are made to do one job.
19:46 <@fenn> you have to add a bunch of stuff to it and at that point you might as well just use a raspberry pi, right
19:46 < ThomasEgi> how often wolud you update that firmware?
19:47 <@fenn> (actually you can run ethernet straight off the avr's gpio but that's hacky)
19:47 < SphericalMouse> seriously, a machine made to run a pcr program doesn't _need_ to run linux
19:47 < ThomasEgi> very true
19:47 <@fenn> i think this is overly limiting in scope
19:48 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:48 <@fenn> you see "a pcr machine" whereas that same assemblage of stuff could be used for many other processes
19:48 <@fenn> maybe it needs to be synchronized with other assemblages of stuff
19:48 < SphericalMouse> that it does
19:49 < ThomasEgi> i see no problem
19:49 < SphericalMouse> but you can send commands via the serial port
19:49 < ThomasEgi> but you definetly woludnt syncronize microcontrollers with ethernet :D
19:49 < ThomasEgi> maybe i2c, spi , or serial
19:49 < ThomasEgi> most likely spi
19:49 <@fenn> ThomasEgi: but then i'd have to physically wire them together in some hacky way
19:49 <@fenn> vs just plugging in an rj45 cable
19:49 < ThomasEgi> ... by using wires. right
19:50 < ThomasEgi> and a rj45 is ..
19:50 < ThomasEgi> oh yeah. guess what
19:50 <@fenn> you missed the point
19:50 < ThomasEgi> a wire!
19:50 < ThomasEgi> just add a DB9 connector for your connection, and you'r set
19:50 <@fenn> ok fine, let it use wifi
19:50 <@kanzure> package management is useful for many things, not just firmware updates and re-using a pile of parts for other things
19:50 <@fenn> since we're being pedantic
19:50 < ThomasEgi> fenn, wifi is even worse
19:50 <@kanzure> it's also useful for things like easier development and projects with 100s of developers
19:50 < ThomasEgi> tons of hardware, transport layers, encryption..
19:51 < ThomasEgi> if you want to get bits from a to b. you use a wire.
19:51 < ThomasEgi> as simple as that.
19:51 <@fenn> i refuse to believe i can't have my cake and eat it too
19:51 < ThomasEgi> no hardware developer would want to pack his bits up in 7 layers of networking and protocolls, and THEN send it over a wire. and THEN unpack it again
19:51 < ThomasEgi> when he can simply transmit it straigth from a to b
19:52 < ThomasEgi> it's like ways ways ways too much overhead
19:52 <@fenn> yes i know, but you're being dumb and can't see that an ethernet cable is different from soldering two wires together
19:52 < ThomasEgi> noone tells you to solder wires
19:52 < ThomasEgi> you can have whatever connector you want
19:52 < ThomasEgi> what you dont want however.. is the entire network layering crap arount ethernet
19:53 <@fenn> it's not that bad
19:53 < ThomasEgi> trust me.. IT IS!
19:53 < ThomasEgi> if you don'- have dedicated hardware to handle it..
19:53 < ThomasEgi> it really is nuts
19:53 < ThomasEgi> and if you are low on processing power and ram. it is even more so
19:53 <@fenn> and thus we're back to the problem of why we can't have it both ways
19:53 <@kanzure> processing power and ram is really cheap
19:54 <@kanzure> this isn't 1981
19:54 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, but flat out not available on microcontrollers
19:54 <@kanzure> then don't use a microcontroller?
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19:54 < ThomasEgi> then you are back on a SoC
19:54 < ThomasEgi> like the raspberry
19:55 < nsh> guys guys guys, this is a completely unreasonable discussion
19:55 < nsh> the solution is obviously XML
19:55 <@kanzure> ...
19:55  * ThomasEgi files a kickbanignore request
19:55 -!- sheena1 [~home@174.4.134.159] has joined ##hplusroadmap
19:55  * fenn mutters something about carrier pigeons
19:56 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: motion denied, but subject will be sternly warned?
19:56 < ThomasEgi> i don't really care as i'll go to bed.
19:56 < ThomasEgi> conclusion: either go with the cost and high complexity of a SoC.
19:57 <@fenn> (cost is negligible these days)
19:57 < ThomasEgi> or get a microcontroller and a hand full of lines of c code and simply run it
19:57 <@kanzure> "hand full of lines of c".. some of these libraries are huuge.
19:57 < ThomasEgi> spoiler: the last option is a lot less prone to errors, eats tons less energy and is cheaper on top of it, and gives you predictable timing
19:58 <@kanzure> yeah, i'm about ready to go for a completely opposite argument
19:58 <@kanzure> linuxes.. everywhere.
19:59 < ThomasEgi> go for what you want. i build enough circuits. i told you what i learned.
19:59 <@fenn> i'm afraid the only reasonable solution is the silliest.. use both
19:59 <@kanzure> i don't see how we jumped from package management for arduino things to operating systems
19:59 <@fenn> too bad the pi doesn't have a microcontroller built in
19:59 <@kanzure> but i still think there's room for arduino packages
20:00 <@fenn> please elaborate how such a package manager would work
20:00 <@kanzure> have you used npm?
20:00 <@fenn> no
20:00 < ThomasEgi> if you are going to build a pcr. just greb an arduino. if that's too expensive. get the bare atmega only, and programm it via ISP
20:01 <@kanzure> i'm sure npm is bloated under the hood, but it works off of a json file describing the contents of the package (the folder it's in)
20:01 <@kanzure> by default, dependencies are installed in yourproject/npm_modules/
20:01 <@fenn> okay, that's assuming you have a filesystem
20:01 <@kanzure> and then that's added to the PATH for require() statements in js to find those things
20:02 <@kanzure> i think it's reasonable to assume you have a file system when compiling arduino code things
20:02 <@fenn> so this package manager is for the host computer, not the microcontroller itself
20:02 <@kanzure> yes, for compile-time
20:02 < ThomasEgi> hint hint hint. you can get the compiled arduino code. and load it directly onto the microcontroller. works, even with no bootloader
20:02 <@kanzure> but why would you do that!
20:02 <@fenn> then why not just use deb packages or npm or whatever
20:02 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: that's completely fucking crazy
20:02 <@fenn> no it's not, that's how debian works
20:03 < ThomasEgi> about as crazy as connecting a programming adapter and executing a signle line of code
20:03 <@kanzure> fenn: no, debian provides the binaries in packages.. wtf dude
20:03 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: nope
20:03 <@fenn> what do you think "binaries" are?
20:03 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, i did that. it works. what's so crazy bout it?
20:03 <@kanzure> i thought the .deb format had a provision for pre-built binaries to be stored inside
20:04 <@kanzure> fenn: maybe i'm wrong?
20:04 <@fenn> that's correct
20:04 <@kanzure> you don't just drop in compiled code and leave it to rot.. that's.. no. don't do that. :(
20:04 <@fenn> there are also packages for various architectures, even ARM and weird stuff
20:04 <@kanzure> yeah, i use debian/arm packages on my android phone all the itme.
20:04 <@kanzure> *time
20:04 <@fenn> but the debian way is to have a source package and some sort of procedure for compiling the source into the binary
20:05 <@fenn> i think this compilation step is even supposed to be architecture independent
20:05 <@fenn> who knows how it works in practice
20:06 <@kanzure> my point is that if you are adding a binary in, it should be package managed.
20:06 <@fenn> anyway, make a new debian architecture with a limited set of packages for it
20:06 < ThomasEgi> are you still talking about microcontrollers and package management?
20:06 <@fenn> yeah
20:06 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: i think you are seriously misunderstanding me
20:07 < ThomasEgi> you guys do realize that microcontrollers only run one signle piece of code
20:07 < ThomasEgi> like a firmware
20:07 <@kanzure> sigh. firmware images can be compiled dude.
20:07 <@kanzure> they don't just magically exist..
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20:07 < ThomasEgi> yeah but there is no point in having a package management system. if the target system doesn't even support that
20:08 <@kanzure> the target system supports a ROM image, i never stated otherwise.
20:08 <@fenn> kanzure: in this case, how is a package manager better than just doing a git pull?
20:09 < ThomasEgi> anyway. introducing a package management for a microcontrollers seems just wrong in so many ways.
20:09 < ThomasEgi> for sharing it and the sourcecode, simply tarball it up with compile instructions.
20:09 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: so if you have 100 different third party libraries in your arduino project, you just manually update the different binaries?
20:09 <@fenn> that assumes it's a monolithic package and has no dependencies
20:09 <@fenn> and maybe your dependencies have dependencies
20:10 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, an arduino code ends up as one binary. not different individual libraries.
20:10 < ThomasEgi> they are only existant on the development machine
20:10 <@fenn> the code still has to play nice
20:10 <@fenn> can't have variables go missing
20:11 < ThomasEgi> once you start compiling your code. it'll collect all those libraries and stuff it into a single rom image which you later upload onto your microcontroller
20:11 <@fenn> someone has to set all that up
20:11 <@kanzure> fenn: git submodules probably wouldn't work because if there's a common library shared between multiple 2 or more libraries, you would just be submodule cloning all over the place?
20:12 <@fenn> is there such a thing as a git submodule dependency loop?
20:12 <@fenn> i haven't really used that feature much
20:13 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20:13 <@kanzure> i wonder if github could be broken with a loop like that
20:13 <@fenn> since everything it referenced by hash it might just work out fine
20:14 <@fenn> have your ouroboros and eat it too
20:14 < ThomasEgi> i give up. it's not like any of that would exist on a microcontroller anyway. it's just c code. modules go in as includes like everything else. that's it. aaaand i'm off to bed.
20:14 <@fenn> thanks for playing ThomasEgi
20:14 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Quit: ...unyaaa ~~~]
20:14 <@kanzure> i know he's wrong. libwhatever-dev proves him wrong.
20:15 <@fenn> i dont see any arduino dev packages
20:15 <@kanzure> there are none
20:15 <@fenn> except for arduino itself that is
20:16 -!- sheena1 [~home@174.4.134.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20:16 <@fenn> seems like a poor way to run an open source project
20:16 <@kanzure> microcontroller programmer culture is weird
20:16 <@kanzure> "let's throw out everything we know about releasing software"
20:16 <@kanzure> s/releasing/developing
20:17 <@kanzure> i suppose i should go package some arduino things into a .deb or something
20:17 <@fenn> i think in large part it's because you want some sense of control over exactly what the device is doing
20:18 <@fenn> if you're calling some library it could mess up your timing, fiddle with IRQs, reset timers, who knows what
20:18 <@kanzure> me? or the owner of a chip in general?
20:18 <@kanzure> ah
20:18 <@fenn> you = a microcontroller programmer
20:19 <@kanzure> in the nodejs community in particular, it's considered very bad to release a package that blocks on io anywhere, unless you EXPLICITLY MAKE IT VERY WELL KNOWN
20:19 <@fenn> so the arduino code base is (was at least) not very efficiently written, and the libavr stuff was much better
20:19 <@kanzure> i never used libavr things. what was there?
20:19 <@fenn> or was it avrlib, i forget which was which
20:20 <@kanzure> compiler toolchain?
20:20 <@fenn> http://www.procyonengineering.com/embedded/avr/avrlib/
20:20 <@kanzure> (and why not just gcc/llvm?)
20:20 <@kanzure> ah just a library of useful things.
20:20 <@fenn> sorry, libavr is the toolchain, avrlib is the standard library
20:21 <@fenn> arduino also uses libavr to compile
20:21 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi sounds like a gentoo user, except this port of gentoo doesn't exist yet or somthing :P
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20:22 <@fenn> gentoo would work, but things arent even at that point
20:22 <@fenn> it's tarballs and floppy disks
20:23 <@fenn> or zip files and .exe installers in this case
20:23 <@kanzure> so much for taking advantage of a third-party ecosystem efficiently
20:25 <@kanzure> client-side js is also at a similar stage. bower was supposed to be a thing to do better package management for client-side js but i haven't seen it going anywhere lately (i also haven't checked, so whatever).
20:25  * kanzure drives home
20:25 <@fenn> it seems like a lot of the work is already done, and there's nothing else to do, so why bother setting up a fancy development community when no development is going on. maybe my perception is wrong
20:26 <@fenn> at least raspberry pi uses debian
20:27 <@fenn> "we gave you VT100 and ethernet, what more do you want, now get off my lawn"
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20:51 < nmz787> I agree with this 20:17 <@fenn> i think in large part it's because you want some sense of control
20:51 < nmz787>               over exactly what the device is doing
20:51 < nmz787> 20:18 <@fenn> if you're calling some library it could mess up your timing,
20:51 < nmz787>               fiddle with IRQs, reset timers, who knows what
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21:23 <@kanzure> nmz787: that's not much of a problem though.. i mean how many libraries are going to reset timers really?
21:24 <@kanzure> which ones currently do that?
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22:17 < nmz787> kanzure: lots of the time related functions
22:17 < nmz787> delays
22:17 < nmz787> serial comms
22:17 < nmz787> tone production
22:17 < nmz787> some PWM forms
22:17 <@kanzure> can't you just store the current clock value somewhere?
22:17 < nmz787> so you can't really mash all of those functions/libs in one project
22:18 < nmz787> it's not about the value, you can, it's about timing things to happen at specific times
22:18 < nmz787> and if those things take a long time, they can interfere with other things using the timer that are on a tight schedule
22:18 <@kanzure> presumably each function will have documentation that tells you how many cycles they take
22:19 < nmz787> no
22:19 < nmz787> well
22:19 < nmz787> you would have to dig all that up
22:19 < nmz787> you just look with an oscilloscope
22:19 <@kanzure> what? why wouldn't a library tell you?
22:19 < nmz787> or write it in assembly
22:20 < nmz787> or get a scheduler
22:20 < nmz787> i don't see them
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22:24 < nmz787> remember that often these programs are less than 64 or even 2 kilobytes
22:24 < nmz787> not mega or gigabytes
22:24 < nmz787> so it might just be a different realm of problem
22:25 < nmz787> there might be a better way to handle things
22:25 < nmz787> but I don't really have any ideas other than a central code repo
22:25 <@kanzure> just because it's 2 kb is no excuse to have shitty documentation
22:37 < rigel> can someone tell me how the shit this virtualenv crap works
22:37 < rigel> i have a brand new, fresh vm of arch
22:37 <@kanzure> sure. wazzup?
22:37 < rigel> and i havent the faintest idea how to set up the stuff that i apparently NEED TO DO THESE DAYS to work with python packages
22:37 < rigel> i.e. pip/virtualenv/virtualenvwrapper
22:37 <@kanzure> i like to use venv-burrito to setup virtualenv and virtualenvwrapper
22:38 < rigel> oh youve got to be shitting me
22:38 <@kanzure> curl -s https://raw.github.com/brainsik/virtualenv-burrito/master/virtualenv-burrito.sh | bash
22:39 <@kanzure> but first you will need pip:
22:39 <@kanzure> curl -O https://github.com/pypa/pip/raw/master/contrib/get-pip.py && sudo python get-pip.py
22:39 < rigel> if im getting pip first why dont i just get virtualenv first
22:39 <@kanzure> arch might have a python-setuptools package that might provide easy_install or pip, who knows.
22:39 < rigel> doesnt that include pip?
22:40 <@kanzure> virtualenv has a setup.py which requires the setuptools package, i think
22:40 < rigel> does it matter that i have both py2.7 and 3 installed?
22:40 <@kanzure> no
22:40 <@kanzure> just make sure you use the same version when installing all this shit
22:40 <@kanzure> so i suggest you be explicit with python about it
22:40 <@kanzure> python2.7 dowhatever
22:40 < rigel> this shit used to be easy
22:41 < rigel> what the goddamn fuck happened
22:41 <@kanzure> arch? not really.
22:41 < rigel> no, i mean python
22:41 <@kanzure> easy_install pip virtualenv virtualenvwrapper
22:42 < rigel> as user, right, not as root
22:42 < rigel> i hate installing shit as root
22:42 < rigel> gives me the willies
22:45 < rigel> meh. it worked as root, i guess
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23:02 <@kanzure> so it turns out my aunt owns a home next to mission/24th in san francisco
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23:28 < nmz787> kanzure: crazy
23:28 < nmz787> kanzure: someone you're close with or grew up around?
23:29 <@kanzure> no
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23:49 < joshcryer> http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2013/02/22/latency-mitigation-strategies/
--- Log closed Sat Feb 23 00:00:08 2013