--- Log opened Tue Mar 26 00:00:38 2013
00:29 < klafka_> man i can't believe i've optimized shit all up
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02:06 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/318/5856/1574.full.pdf
02:07 < paperbot> error: HTTP 504 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/6611c402eb354ee63d5a192e354d8ee6.pdf
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02:36 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v493/n7433/full/nature11775.html
02:36 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/LTP%20requires%20a%20reserve%20pool%20of%20glutamate%20receptors%20independent%20of%20subunit%20type.pdf
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03:52 < d00hann> que canal mas silencioso
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04:17 < d00hann> hello
04:18 < archels> .head http://www.sciencemag.org/content/318/5856/1574.full.pdf
04:18 < yoleaux> 200, text/html;charset=UTF-8
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04:25 < archels> Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Science-2007-De Pontieu-1574-7.pdf"
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05:25 < chris_99> nmz787, be thee about per chance?
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06:19 < EnLilaSko> paperbot: http://www.medical-hypotheses.com/article/S0306-9877%2808%2900641-5/abstract
06:19 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2cd5f7306a88bc8fa0b85ada68431f6a.txt
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06:25 < eudoxia> bina technologies? don't tell me that's rothblatt's wife/partner/transdimensional fellow being
06:26 < kanzure> rothblatt has been many things but i'm not sure transdimensional is one of them
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07:25 < kanzure> man, the "design by committee" vibe is very strange.
07:27 < kanzure> "first we need to assemble a committee to define what open source hardware packaging means".... what.
07:28 < kanzure> because if none of you know it, maybe if you get together you'll suddenly have a clue? that's never worked.
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07:31 < eudoxia> http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Induction_Furnace
07:31 < eudoxia> >Qwiki Reference is no longer available . We've decided to take down that product and focus on Qwiki for iPhone.
07:31 < eudoxia> this sort of shit is going to ruin them
07:31 < eudoxia> 'where did all our dev files go?'
07:32 < kanzure> they are already dead
07:32 < eudoxia> you mean OSE as a whole?
07:39 < kanzure> i was just channeling kenshiro for a moment there
07:39 < eudoxia> ah ok
07:39 < kanzure> but yes, this sort of problem is critical
07:39 < eudoxia> that's probably some kind of anime reference
07:40 < eudoxia> why use google docs for spreadsheets? doesn't mediawiki have tables? can't they write a little js spreadsheet editor to make it easier?
07:41 < eudoxia> for example: http://handsontable.com/
07:42 < eudoxia> just make it output HTML <tables> or Medawiki's {| ... |}
07:43 < JayDugger> Google Docs spreadsheet works much as Excel does.
07:43 < JayDugger> Good luck fighting years of habit.
07:44 < JayDugger> Pardon the cynical comment, but I just watched a senior co-worker butcher a software upgrade at work.
07:46 < JayDugger> Too busy to back-up the system first; too impatient to read the installer's instructions, its changelog, or its error messages.
07:46 < JayDugger> Then he wondered why it didn't go well.
07:47 < JayDugger> The kind of person who'd blame his wife for not trying harder and finishing pregnancy ahead of schedule.
07:47 < eudoxia> :)
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08:12 < kanzure> storing tables in mediawiki is not efficient
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08:16 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/339/6121/823.abstract
08:16 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/339/6121/819.abstract
08:17 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/RNA-Guided%20Human%20Genome%20Engineering%20via%20Cas9.pdf
08:17 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Multiplex%20Genome%20Engineering%20Using%20CRISPR_Cas%20Systems.pdf
08:17 < kanzure> paperbot: http://rna.berkeley.edu/files/jinek_etal_elife_2013.pdf
08:17 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/d7833ae4c612df9102a65bfa694c67a4.pdf
08:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/337/6096/816.short
08:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v471/n7340/abs/nature09886.html
08:18 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/A%20Programmable%20Dual-RNAGuided%20DNA%20Endonuclease%20in%20Adaptive%20Bacterial%20Immunity.pdf
08:18 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/CRISPR%20RNA%20maturation%20by%20trans-encoded%20small%20RNA%20and%20host%20factor%20RNase%20III.pdf
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13:14 < kanzure> i am not sure how i am supposed to reply to malcolm
13:14 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 2:44 PM, malcolm stanley <a.malcolm.stanley@gmail.com> wrote:
13:14 < kanzure> > Bryan, if I organize a Google Hangout for it, will you put together a short
13:14 < kanzure> > presentation on ISO 10303 and do a Q&A for us on what it is, what it says,
13:14 < kanzure> > and why it matters?
13:15 < kanzure> you can go Hangout by yourself
13:15 < kanzure> isn't it their *jobs* to know about that long list of standards i sent them
13:15 < kanzure> if they think the existing software is buggy, they should file bug reports, or propose something that doesn't have whatever problems they are imagining.
13:16 < kanzure> i don't think it should be my job to teach them about all the things they have already claimed to have a responsibility to know about, unless they want to pay me.
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13:18 < kanzure> (also i don't see why they are fixating on ISO. i guess that's a start.)
13:20 < kanzure> the fact that he claims to be interested in hardware packaging, but knows nothing about these existing solutions (including existing package managers), indicates to me that he is not very serious about his role and that i would be wasting my time talking with him for any extended period.
13:22 < kanzure> ... right?
13:26 < ParahSailin> im probably missing some context, whats iso 10303
13:27 < kanzure> cad file format standards, covers a lot of shit
13:27 < kanzure> implemented by solidworks/opencascade/autocad/pro-engineer/catia/etc.
13:28 < ParahSailin> whats he asking you to do?
13:28 < kanzure> most of those implementations are primarily focused on mechanical part representation (the CAD aspects), and i don't think they do anything like list out dependencies for building hardware. but there are existing solutions for managing dependencies in projects that seem completely absent from his discussions/emails.
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13:29 < kanzure> he is asking me to prepare a presentation to bring him up to speed on open source hardware packaging, file formats, cad standards, etc., to do his job for him
13:29 < kanzure> prepare and give the presentation, i should say
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13:34 < nmz787> dependencies in hardware can be so varied
13:34 < kanzure> if i tell him these things, then he will say "that's nice, i will take these to the committee for consideration" and what's the point?? am i missing something here. how does he think this isn't a waste of time?
13:34 < nmz787> you could take a CAD and make it on a wood lathe, makerbot, resin DLP printer
13:35 < kanzure> that's a different type of dependency
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13:35 < kanzure> cad-compile-time dependencies are the primary type that most people consider (especially considering the >30000 objects on thingiverse)
13:36 < nmz787> what dependency are you talking about then?
13:36 < kanzure> tangiblebit and skdb both had considerations for different types of dependencies (like "run time" and "physical build time") but neither had any traversal algorithm (which is trivial, but it just wasn't written)
13:36 < kanzure> cad-compile-time dependencies
13:36 < nmz787> like simply the CAD compiler (SCAD, solidworks, sketchup, rhino, etc)
13:36 < nmz787> ?
13:36 < kanzure> for instance, elmom's scad library of parts is an okay example of a dependency if you include any of his parts in your project
13:37 < kanzure> have you ever looked at the dependencies of a package when you force apt-get or aptitude to do something?
13:37 < nmz787> yeah, it used to be no fun like 5 years ago
13:37 < kanzure> what was no fun?
13:37 < nmz787> but it's been that long since things have really acted up on me
13:37 < nmz787> hunting for thee right version
13:38 < kanzure> package managers do that for you
13:38 < nmz787> maybe it wasn't maintained in apt anymore
13:38 < kanzure> that's the whole point
13:38 < chris_99> nmz787, you know that linear sensor you used for your spectrometer do you know the highest nm it can pick up.  I'm wondering if i can measure the temp. of a flame using it
13:38 < nmz787> then i'd have to go find the right version, download, compile, move on in the apt-get install and hope it didn't find another dependency that wasn't maintained anymore
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13:38 < kanzure> what were you recompiling?
13:39 < kanzure> i don't understand.
13:39 < nmz787> chris_99: prob not higher than 900 or 1100nm
13:39 < chris_99> ooh
13:39 < nmz787> probably openCV
13:39 < chris_99> that's probably be enough
13:39 < nmz787> or multi-pointer X
13:39 < nmz787> yeah, xorg i think it was
13:39 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure opencv has a debian maintainer
13:39 < nmz787> it was a fork at the time
13:39 < kanzure> xorg also has lots of package maintainers
13:39 < nmz787> mpx wasn't mainstreamed
13:39 < kanzure> i don't know why you are bringing it up
13:40 < nmz787> my experience with dependencies
13:40 < kanzure> i was trying to illustrate a software tool that resolves dependencies without human intervention
13:40 < nmz787> findind them manually
13:41 < nmz787> chris_99: that's most silicon based light sensors, now if they have an IR filter that would kill the sensitivity
13:41 < nmz787> chris_99: try removing the IR filter from a common webcam
13:42 < chris_99> mm, do you know how you would actually measure the temp from the lines from the grating, i'm a bit confused how that'd be done
13:44 < nmz787> you mean like flame spectroscopy?
13:44 < nmz787> chris_99: you could just try hacking this $12 item http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Professional-hand-held-non-contact-DT-380-Digital-LCD-infrared-IR-thermometer/629051292.html
13:45 < chris_99> alas that won't handle the temp. i plan on looking at 3500C
13:45 < chris_99> and yep flame spectroscopy i guess
13:45 < nmz787> chris_99: that might simply require adding a resistor
13:45 < nmz787> or an aperature
13:46 < chris_99> mm that's an idea, the aperture could work maybe
13:46 < chris_99> i've got one of those myself, will see how that effects it
13:46 < chris_99> my bet is even with an aperture it'll overwhelm the sensor
13:50 < nmz787> how?
13:50 < nmz787> an aperature reduces photons coming in
13:51 < chris_99> hmm i guess so, but why can't i seem to find any IR thermometers that do above 1500C though
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13:51 < nmz787> if that was the case, than the aperature wasn't big enough, and probably the sensitivity of the sensor amp needs changed
13:51 < nmz787> whihc would likely just be adding or removing a resistor
13:52 < nmz787> (either in=line with the sensor, or on the amp gain selector, if there's a gain selector)
13:52 < kanzure> "I would be happy to speak with you about existing standards and on-going progress in open source hardware file formats/packaging, either over email, irc, voip, phone, or in person. I am curious as to what outcomes you are expecting from that sort of conversation. In particular, it strikes me as odd that you would ask why these things matter-- you run into them constantly if you do any hardware development (it's seriously hard to find a ...
13:52 < kanzure> ... commercial CAD tool that doesn't support STEP), and in the software world there's a tremendous amount of standardization on packaging formats, which has led to hundreds of thousands of standard 'components'. If these things are not evident to you, I would be interested in knowing what you are doing here..."
13:53 < kanzure> perhaps too harsh?
13:53 < nmz787> maybe the end
13:53 < nmz787> yes
13:53 < kanzure> but i mean it :(
13:53 < nmz787> well
13:53 < nmz787> you can still mean it, but say it better
13:54 < kanzure> "yo dawg, what the fuck?"
13:54 < nmz787> heh
13:54 < nmz787> better in some ways, lol, worse in others
13:54 < nmz787> meh
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13:54 < nmz787> it's pretty good
13:54 < nmz787> it
13:54 < nmz787> it's straightforward
13:54 < nmz787> which I tend to like
13:55 < nmz787> maybe change what you are doing  here...
13:56 < nmz787> I would be interested to know your status and understanding. Understanding STEP and other standards is pre-requisite to advancing our cause...
13:56 < nmz787> or something
13:57 < kanzure> no, that would sound elitist
13:57 < nmz787> now /that/ i don't understand
13:57 < kanzure> and frankly, STEP isn't really that important, the format sucks, and there's like 100 different 500 page documents defining AP101-AP4xx, and they are all based on a custom language (EXPRESS) that compiles the standards into C++ that compiles into god-knows-what.
13:58 < nmz787> really it's true though, how can you evaluate a field if you don't dig in?
13:58 < klafka> that is true
13:58 < nmz787> klafka: what?
13:58 < klafka> how can you evaluate a field if you don't dig in
13:59 < nmz787> it seems that these folks want to dig in, via you bryan, via a braindump
13:59 < nmz787> so honestly give them what you can
13:59 < nmz787> what you don't need to prep for
13:59 < nmz787> too much prep at least
13:59 < nmz787> it's still their responsibility if they have some grander vision
13:59 < kanzure> brain dumping doesn't guarantee me that they will take my information and make something useful out of it
13:59 < nmz787> no
14:00 < nmz787> kids paying $50k/year to college doesn't mean they understand shit either
14:00 < nmz787> but they still pay
14:00 < nmz787> you're not paid
14:00 < nmz787> so you have to assume/hope they'll use it
14:00 < kanzure> so far they have demonstrated an unwillingness to review solutions that others (including myself) have proposed, or file bug reports (not just on my own work, but everything else too), etc., so why would i think this time is any different?
14:01 < nmz787> that's one reason having a slide deck or a recorded google hangout will be valuable to the greater community if these folks ignore you
14:01 < nmz787> so other's can take your facts/knowledge and make use
14:01 < nmz787> kanzure: maybe that should be your second or third email paragraph
14:01 < nmz787> not harsh, not sugarcoated
14:02 < nmz787> very realistic for a busy person
14:02 < kanzure> i don't think so, it feels wrong to suggest that they are acting in bad faith
14:02 < kanzure> even though i fully think they are :)
14:02 < nmz787> saying 'i've been burned' is OK though
14:03 < nmz787> that's why i said give minimal prep time
14:03 < nmz787> 'i've been burned, but I still have faith to give more'
14:03 < kanzure> i don't have faith.
14:04 < nmz787> you'll anyway cross-post the hell out of a chat session/video/slide deck
14:04 < kanzure> even if this "open source hardware" committee of theirs comes up with something, does that mean they are going to go look around for someone to write all the software.. and then what.. we end up with some shitty software?
14:04 < nmz787> so it won't be totally wasted if they don't listen
14:04 < nmz787> or they come back to you
14:04 < kanzure> and if it ends up me writing their shitty software, ugh
14:04 < nmz787> and you say you need $ for more commitment
14:04 < kanzure> committees have this tendency to come up with really really terrible solutions ("XML FOR EVERYTHING")
14:05 < nmz787> lol
14:05 < nmz787> i can't even understand why the youtube API uses XML in something called an Atom feed
14:05 < kanzure> ("WE DON'T HAVE MONEY BECAUSE WE ARE OPEN SOURCE")
14:05 < kanzure> (which is a lie)
14:05 < kanzure> atom is based on xml
14:05 < kanzure> pretty sure.
14:05 < kanzure> atom and rss were two competing syndication standards, i think.
14:06 < kanzure> "atom is an IETF standard while rss is not" aha
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14:08 <@fenn> give quantumG my apologies, holy crap how high can it go: http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price
14:09 < kanzure> 2010-02-10.log:23:08 < fenn> ah well at least they sell bitcoins via paypal
14:09 < kanzure> 2010-02-10.log:23:12 < fenn> currently $0.0038/bitcoin
14:10 < ParahSailin> are silk road prices lower than street prices?
14:10 <@fenn> let me just point out that nobody else hoarded any bitcoins either
14:10 < kanzure> did quantumg hoard any?
14:10 <@fenn> dunno
14:10 < kanzure> i kept thinking ybit did, but he says he didn't.
14:11 < kanzure> wasn't he going through his crypto-currency streak around that time?
14:11 <@fenn> ParahSailin: generally silk road is 2-10 times street price, depending on where you live and what's being sold
14:12 < ParahSailin> hm, so im not seeing much rational utility of the currency yet
14:13 <@fenn> some people value "not having to talk to some shady drug dealer and maybe get busted" even if this isn't an unbiased depiction of reality
14:14 < kanzure> transfers seem to be very much easier than using other systems, if that counts for anything.
14:14 <@fenn> also i think you can't buy porn with paypal(?)
14:15 <@fenn> sometimes i think alien time travelers inserted puritanical morals into the timeline in order to spur human technological development
14:16 < kanzure> the bitcoin laundering schemes are sorta hilariously wrong (they don't actually hide originating sources)
14:16 <@fenn> you have to actually swap coins, no?
14:17 < ParahSailin> well you have to have some sort of basic understanding of cryptography and math to understand why bitcoin is not in fact anonymous
14:17 < kanzure> well there's some services where they just distribute your bitcoins into a pool of a few thousand wallets and then they try to obfuscate the path the money followed
14:17 < ParahSailin> can't blame the majority for being completely clueless
14:17 < kanzure> by "obfuscate" i mean "attempt to hide by increasing the path length"
14:17 < kanzure> software development is a really unique way to launder money, though.
14:17 <@fenn> maybe i'm clueless but can't you just swap coins and not tell anyone?
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14:18 < kanzure> transactions appear in the blocks http://blockexplorer.com/
14:18 <@fenn> then don't do the transaction that way
14:18 < kanzure> oh you mean sell a wallet's identity?
14:18 <@fenn> make two new wallets with 0 bitcoins, add money, trade wallets
14:19 < kanzure> but then you have 2 people who each have information about where the bitcoins went
14:20 < ParahSailin> thats exactly what you're supposed to do-- recipient is supposed to create new wallet for money to be sent to
14:20 < kanzure> ok, if the recipient creates the new wallet, then that's fine, as long as that new wallet never interacts with the recipients' other wallets. ever.
14:21 < ParahSailin> kanzure: yes, i know
14:21 < kanzure> but this seems particularly hard to make useful, say you have 1000 wallets with bitcoins in each and you are trying to make use of your money.. you're back to the same problem basically.
14:21 < ParahSailin> bitcoin is not anonymous-- it can't be, to be zero trust irrevocable transactions
14:22 < ParahSailin> zero trust irrevocable transactions is a valuable property, but orthogonal to anonymity
14:22 < ParahSailin> if you want anonymity, you gotta trust a middle man to try to launder
14:24 <@fenn> hm you'd expect google to at least recognize "BTC" as a currency type
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14:25 < ParahSailin> i havent been paying attention to whatever laundering services are out there, but it's conceivable that you could do a safe laundering if you deposited currency with them to maintain a positive balance in your account, and they would forward on a non-equal amount to what you deposited to the end set of destination wallets
14:25 < ParahSailin> it's entirely possible that that's how the existing ones work
14:27 < kanzure> ParahSailin: i think another way to make anonymity happen is to have a unit of work/value that you can pay for in tainted currency while anonymous, and then take that "created valuable" and sell it somewhere for clean money. the trick is that the item has to be something that neither the original creator (the person getting the tainted money) or the end customer (the person paying you non-tainted money) will be able to recognize after the ...
14:27 < ParahSailin> i dont think there's been any major bitcoin depository "institution" that hasn't gotten compromised in some way in the last year
14:27 < kanzure> ... fact... e.g. painting logos for an oil company wont do it, the worker will know.
14:28 < ParahSailin> anonymity relies on trust, regardless of the scheme
14:28 < kanzure> generic software could work, especially if it's privately-deployed software that is unlikely to reach lots of consumers.
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14:29 < kanzure> or you can go the other way around, and make it completely open source work that you are paying for with tainted coinage
14:29 < kanzure> what are they going to do? trace bad money and they find an open source project.. and what.. repossess it? take it down? at that point, everyone has had a chance to access it and copy it / fork it.
14:30 <@fenn> the idea with money laundering is to have lots of legitimate users (or at least the perception of such)
14:30 <@fenn> in order to get other types of money/services in and out
14:30 < kanzure> security through numbers? really, fenn?
14:30 < kanzure> disappointedi n you
14:30 < kanzure> *in you
14:31 < kanzure> *through quantity
14:31 <@fenn> if you can just arrest all 5 people using pokecoins you lose
14:32 <@fenn> think about tor; if there were only 5 exit nodes it would be easy to just block them all
14:32 < kanzure> man, we should get a cypherpunk in here. let's see some real paranoia.
14:32 < ParahSailin> the only purpose of bitcoin laundering services is to allow you to buy from people you don't trust, without revealing identity
14:32 < kanzure> eugen leitl doesn't count (he's insufficiently paranoid, even though he's a cypherpunk member)
14:33 < ParahSailin> if delivery of service would not reveal identity to the seller, it's unncessary
14:34 <@fenn> given the size of the cypherpunks list i'd be surprised if there weren't one here already
14:34 < kanzure> eleitl.
14:34 <@fenn> he's not here :P
14:34 < ParahSailin> you could run paperbot off bitcoin, and the delivery mechanism would be a random web based drop box
14:34 < kanzure> ok how does this sound http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/oshw-standards-email.txt
14:35 < kanzure> ParahSailin: part of the point of paperbot is community reading
14:35 <@fenn> but botsnacks would be so much more useful if you could buy processing time with them
14:35 <@fenn> think of all the captchas
14:35 < ParahSailin> tor hidden service could work
14:36 < kanzure> so far i haven't seen an academic publisher that implements a captcha system
14:36 <@fenn> "which are hard to escape the reaches from on most computers
14:36 < kanzure> also, deathbycaptcha.com is sufficiently cheap for me to fund all future paperbot accesses that require captcha solving
14:36 < kanzure> fenn: at least computers worth using
14:36 <@fenn> you'll use" should just be "which you will find on most computers"
14:37 < kanzure> heh servers
14:37 < kanzure> okay
14:37 < kanzure> re deathbycaptcha see
14:37 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/python-deathbycaptcha
14:38 <@fenn> what is a Hangout anyway
14:38 < kanzure> i dunno if thingdoc is worth mentioning; i still hate .scad, but at least there's a documentation tool.
14:39 < kanzure> Google Hangout is this in-browser video conferencing thing..
14:39 <@fenn> is it just group video chat?
14:39 < kanzure> yes
14:39 < kanzure> also you can add funny hats to people
14:39 <@fenn> why does that need a name
14:39 < brownies> and moustaches
14:40 < kanzure> brownies: can you wordsmith-check that link? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/oshw-standards-email.txt
14:40 < kanzure> i sort of have to be political around these people, because the CEO of sparkfun ends up reading my email
14:40 < kanzure> and other bigwigs
14:40 <@fenn> industrial titans of our era
14:41 < kanzure> hardly.
14:41 < ParahSailin> who is malcolm stanley
14:41 < kanzure> but i would like them to think positively of me if at all possible, while at the same time also telling them that i am disappointed in them. if that's possible.
14:41 < brownies> heh
14:41 < brownies> kanzure: well, i think he is asking more "how it matters" not "does it matter"
14:42 < brownies> it's possible that he doesn't know if or why it matters, but that seems... at least just from this piece of text... less likely.
14:42 < kanzure> that's an *absurd* question for these people to ask. they are supposed to be the "open source hardware association". how the fuck could they not know...
14:43 <@fenn> does he know that ISO-10303 == .step files?
14:43 < kanzure> dunno
14:43 <@fenn> that would be a good place to start
14:43 < kanzure> btw there's a lot of stuff in 10303 other than just .step files
14:43 <@fenn> eh i guess
14:43 < kanzure> i shouldn't really be pimping ISO shit here anyway
14:44 <@fenn> i was the one that started it :\
14:44 < kanzure> charlie stix runs a company called costvision and i think he's written a bunch of software for iso, so i am just deferring that shit to him now
14:44 < kanzure> *bunch of software for iso 10303 things
14:44 < kanzure> plus he has read opencascade source code and seems to be vaguely interested in open source things
14:45 < kanzure> ParahSailin: seems to be this person http://www.linkedin.com/in/amstanley
14:46 < nmz787> kanzure: email looks ggood to me
14:47 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Matt Maier <blueback09@gmail.com> wrote:
14:47 < kanzure> > I suspect that once we figure out what we need it will be easy to discover
14:47 < kanzure> > several pre-existing software tools that either already do exactly that, or
14:47 < kanzure> > can easily be forked to do exactly that.
14:47 < kanzure> > The problem is that we don't know what we need.
14:47 < kanzure> wtf
14:47 < kanzure> > overhead. I doubt even OSE is doing any project big enough to justify that
14:47 < kanzure> > much complexity. A giant, complicated format like STEP could obviously
14:47 < kanzure> with you so far
14:48 < kanzure> > describe simple projects, but it would also create a huge barrier to entry
14:48 < kanzure> > The best way to find out is to
14:48 < kanzure> > compare it to a bunch of other people's impressions so we can come up with a
14:48 < kanzure> > generally applicable solution
14:48 < kanzure> .... do people seriously read the shit they type?
14:48 < nmz787> what's wrong with comparing?
14:48 <@fenn> it sounds like they are seriously underestimating the scale of the problem
14:48 < nmz787> comparing *exists* with *expected*/*desired*
14:48 < kanzure> comparing impressions != technology development
14:49 < kanzure> > At any rate, the discussion has to happen before any implementation makes
14:49 < kanzure> > sense.
14:49 < kanzure> i think that's a blatant lie.. thingdoc works really well for .scad. and there was little discussion about it. it was an obvious implementation based on previous things like docstrings, javadoc, and other comments-to-documentation generators.
14:50 < kanzure> i suppose he will just handwave that by saying thingdoc is simple and therefore irrelevant
14:51 < brownies> wtf is his point?
14:51 < nmz787> so which of these formats simply stores voxels that == atoms?
14:51 < nmz787> that seems like the space-wasting but easy way out
14:51 < kanzure> pdb
14:51 < nmz787> lol
14:51 < kanzure> it's not that helpful.
14:52 < nmz787> new standard CAD format
14:52 < nmz787> :P
14:52 < kanzure> no
14:52 < kanzure> sending stl or voxels is like sending me a jpeg of your compiled binary, instead of sending me your C source code.
14:52 < nmz787> no more NURBS, just atoms
14:52 < nmz787> true
14:53 < nmz787> unless voxel files could be compressed well
14:53 < kanzure> email ahoy. now to sit around and wait for the hate mail to roll in.
14:54 < nmz787> set your expectations higher, call it 'love mail'
14:54 <@fenn> mail of intense yet undescribable feelings
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14:54 < nmz787> you've already been nominated for a nobel prize this week
14:55 < kanzure> my space ship is powered by the heat from burning hopes, dreams and nobel prizes
14:55 < nmz787> so i was thinking of getting my truck painted
14:55 < kanzure> god damn it i got charlie's name wrong
14:55 < kanzure> none of you caught that?
14:56 < nmz787> then i thought maybe i would just drive it to burning man with a case or three of spray paint and clear coat
14:56 < brownies> a nobel prize?
14:56 < nmz787> fenn: would that fly there? aside from dust coating the truck?
14:56 <@fenn> nmz787: you could paint it like this http://i3.asn.im/Pikachu-airplane-_tsi5.jpg
14:56 < brownies> nmz787: just spray paint it
14:56 < nmz787> brownies: well i want a reason to go to burning man anyway
14:56 < brownies> fenn++
14:57 < nmz787> brownies: and I'm not too creative, it would end up simply being black
14:57 < nmz787> s/creative/artistic/
14:57 < kanzure> oh look, someone cared enough to merge my changes https://github.com/jeanphix/Ghost.py/pull/73
14:57 <@fenn> you're painting it because you want it to look good for burning man? 0_o
14:57 < nmz787> no
14:58 < nmz787> i just want to keep the rust off for a few more years
14:58 < nmz787> 85 born and going strongish
14:58 < nmz787> that pokemon scheme isn't bad
14:59 <@fenn> http://rpad.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Pikachu-school-bus-2.jpg
14:59 < nmz787> getting it painted at burning man would likely mean it would look somewhat artistic, rather than like I was parked outside a paint factory that exploded
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15:02 <@fenn> wtf there's an inflatable version of that airplane http://s1108.photobucket.com/user/Pinkproposal/media/plane.png.html
15:03 < brownies> nmz787: turn it into its own cheesy modern-art installation
15:03 < kanzure> fenn: there is a cheap (~$300) linux 2.6.32 quadrotor on the market. i am pondering ways to make it automatically replace its own battery, possibly through a docking station, so that it could fly continuously.
15:03 < brownies> nmz787: drive your truck there, leave out a bunch of paint, and let people express themselves
15:03 < brownies> nmz787: bam, free paint job
15:03 <@fenn> sounds like a job for lego
15:03 < nmz787> brownies: pretty much my thinking
15:03 <@fenn> kanzure: the magnet idea sounded pretty reasonable
15:04 < brownies> you might look a damn dirty hippie driving it around afterwards
15:04 < nmz787> fenn: hmm, i wonder if I should use legos to rig up my projector to my microscop
15:04 < brownies> kanzure: link to quadrotor?
15:04 < kanzure> fenn: what about the forces due to running tight curves in air? wouldn't that make the battery not stay attached..
15:04 <@fenn> the forces aren't very high until it crashes
15:05 < kanzure> brownies: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nodecopter.txt
15:05 <@fenn> and even then, the magnets are self-healing
15:06 < kanzure> oops, refresh nodecopter.txt for the better version
15:06 <@fenn> you'd want separate electrical spring contacts and magnetic mechanical contacts
15:06 < kanzure> one of these papers/videos was saying 2G's on some of the curves
15:06 <@fenn> 2G is nothing
15:07 < kanzure> neodymium magnets will hold?
15:07 <@fenn> well it depends on the magnets doesn't it? how long is a string?
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15:08 <@fenn> you just need a good ratio of (force to remove battery)/(expected operational forces)
15:09 <@fenn> if it's too high you won't be able to get the battery off
15:09 <@fenn> do they run on cell phone batteries or what?
15:10 < kanzure> looks like lipo batteries the size of a cell phone
15:10 < kanzure> http://ardrone2.parrot.com/usa/ is the one that the linux/javascript community has been cross-compiling to
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15:12 < brownies> kanzure: nice link collection, thanks
15:12 < kanzure> 1000mAH or 1500mAH battery that provides 12 minutes of 5m/sec (18 kmph)
15:14 <@fenn> yeah that's about the same as a cell phone battery
15:16 < kanzure> it looks like a really appealing toy, except i absolutely know i would be frustrated with short flights, so even if i wrote out some code, it would involve waiting to test alterations, unless i buy 8-10 batteries and swap them out, ugh.
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15:16 <@fenn> some of those "technical specifications" are things you would not be advertising if your customers were well informed
15:16 < kanzure> hm?
15:16 <@fenn> like "emergency stop controlled by software"
15:17 < kanzure> it's in their ipad app.. it's an emergency stop button you can press.
15:17 <@fenn> no that's talking about the "fully reprogrammable motor controller"
15:17 <@fenn> so your friends can hack into your drone and make it explode in mid-air
15:18 <@fenn> what the hell were they thinking
15:18 < kanzure> your friends can hack into them anyway, port 23 is open and gives you a shell.
15:18 <@fenn> yes but they shouldn't be able to reprogram the motor controller
15:18 < kanzure> https://github.com/substack/virus-copter/blob/master/virus.js
15:18 < kanzure> i don't think you can reprogram the motor controller with the default software.
15:19 <@fenn> seems easy enough to immunize, just broadcast "INFECTED" regardless
15:19 < kanzure> haha
15:20 < kanzure> his point was that the default security is weak
15:21 <@fenn> um. but port 23 is open and gives you a shell
15:21 < kanzure> don't you think that's dangerous?
15:22 <@fenn> yes, but at least there's a point to it
15:22 <@fenn> whereas i can't see any reason for letting people reprogram motor controllers aside from the glee of watching your opponent go down in flames
15:22 < kanzure> given the option, i would take the open port because it means i wouldn't have to flash it
15:22 < kanzure> or, at least, i wouldn't have to flash it so soon
15:25 <@fenn> werent we supposed to have chip turbines by now
15:25 <@fenn> methanol or butane just seems so much better suited for this kind of thing
15:25 < kanzure> the timeline oracle hasn't reported any discrepancies.
15:26 <@fenn> i mean 12 minutes is pretty weak
15:26 < kanzure> yes.
15:26 <@fenn> why are people using batteries at all
15:26 < kanzure> no clue
15:26 < kanzure> i'm very conflicted on it. on the one hand.. flying robot with linux and javascript. on the other hand, low battery life and i would have to build that docking station for auto swapping. :/
15:26 < kanzure> constant flying robot is very appealing to my nerd senses. especially with what.. it has a 2 mile max range before it has to turn around (assuming no wind resistance issues)?
15:27 < nmz787> fenn: wouldn't that just be removing a jumper on the data line of the controller before flying it?
15:27 < nmz787> kanzure: pretty cool, how much $ total with batteries?
15:27 < nmz787> and legos
15:27 < kanzure> $300 with one battery, extra batteries look $40-$50/each or something.. so <$1000 for an always-on system.
15:28 < nmz787> and the weight limit is already there with those batteries?
15:28 < ParahSailin> make it an actual airplane if you want it to go farther
15:28 < nmz787> already maxed*
15:28 < kanzure> someone said 100g payload limit, dunno if that's with the plastic shit or not
15:28 <@fenn> make it a blimp if you want longer airtime :P
15:28 < nmz787> ahh so adding more batteries isn't much an option
15:28 < ParahSailin> you get a factor of 15 extra range just going to airplane
15:28 < kanzure> but no positional stability
15:29 < nmz787> VTOL?
15:29 < kanzure> loops?
15:29 < ParahSailin> ulrich flyer?
15:29 < nmz787> inflatable on-demand blimp?
15:30 < nmz787> get to your location fast and with precision once there, then cruise slowly home
15:30 < nmz787> though there's the wind factor
15:30 <@fenn> kytoon is the answer to wind
15:31 < nmz787> do they make non-electric copters?
15:31 <@fenn> yes
15:31 < nmz787> do they have better range?
15:31 <@fenn> yes
15:31 < nmz787> kanzure: have you looked into that?
15:32 < nmz787> no batteries
15:32 <@fenn> they're usually nitromethane or "diesel" which is more like ether mixed with lamp oil
15:32 < nmz787> wonder if you could use veg oil
15:32 < nmz787> with some ether
15:32 <@fenn> it would gunk up
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15:32 < nmz787> not light enough?
15:33 <@fenn> crosslinking caused by peroxidation at high temperatures
15:33 < nmz787> he /is/ in TX
15:33 <@fenn> wut?
15:33 < ParahSailin> internal combustion engines dont really scale well to that small
15:33 < kanzure> i expect that they are larger
15:33 < kanzure> yes
15:33 < nmz787> yeah but they're already popular in RC cars
15:33 <@fenn> they are very noisy and not as efficient as larger engines
15:34 < kanzure> quadrotors are already pretty noisy
15:34 < ParahSailin> you can only do two-stroke below a certain size
15:34 <@fenn> so the range benefit is not as good as you'd expect
15:34 < nmz787> and kanzure wanted range which fenn said increases
15:34 < kanzure> no i wanted flight time
15:34 < kanzure> or i want auto-refueling (which is much easier with liquid fuels i think)
15:34 < nmz787> i assume that's the same within a copter
15:35 < ParahSailin> kanzure: what is the application?
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15:35 < nmz787> i guess hovering would take less fuel than forward motion
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15:35 < kanzure> oh, you know. just have a flying robot around the house or to go out and do my evil bidding.
15:35 < nmz787> so it's not a great assumption
15:35 < nmz787> 'in the house fumes would then be an issue
15:35 < ParahSailin> ah, then quadrotor and an inductive charger station
15:35 < kanzure> so it would perch on the charging station for an hour, then go fly for 10 minutes, and then perch again?
15:35 < kanzure> i think the battery idea was better :P
15:36 < nmz787> you'd have to have the gasser for outdoor ops only
15:36 < nmz787> 'get me a taco'
15:36 < kanzure> http://tacocopter.com/
15:36 < nmz787> that would totally fucking work
15:36 <@fenn> nmz787: actually slight forward motion tends to work better because there's this "donut effect" if you stay still
15:36 < nmz787> you could have it deliver in your neighborhood for convenience fees too
15:36 < ParahSailin> for deliveries an airplane is much more efficient than quadrotor
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15:36 < nmz787> maybe, if it was cheap enough in fuel and maintenance costs
15:37 <@fenn> kanzure: i talked to her about tacocopter and she seemed amused but thought FCC was too big of a hurdle to seriously go for it
15:37 < kanzure> fixed-wing is definitely better for payloads, sure
15:37 < nmz787> ParahSailin: how would you land on a porch?
15:37 < kanzure> fenn: who is her?
15:37 <@fenn> star simpson
15:37 < kanzure> nmz787: sky drops
15:37 < ParahSailin> parachute drop
15:37 <@fenn> so tacocopter.com is just a joke as far as i can tell :(
15:37 < nmz787> that seems, unreliable...
15:37 < kanzure> yes it's a joke
15:37 < nmz787> 'my taco is on the porch below'
15:37 < ParahSailin> if payments are in btc, who cares about fcc, faa etc
15:37 <@fenn> i don't really understand why it's a joke
15:37 < kanzure> because people are cruel
15:38 <@fenn> but she's an engineer that could actually do it
15:38 < kanzure> oh is she?
15:38 < kanzure> are you sure
15:38  * fenn shrugs
15:38 <@fenn> it's not that hard, "a simple matter of programming"
15:39 < nmz787> throw a pico projector on it too maybe, to have a facial 'presence'
15:39 < kanzure> why?
15:39 < nmz787> people like that
15:39 < nmz787> trust, etc
15:39 <@fenn> haven't you played halo
15:39 < nmz787> same reason people want androids
15:39 < kanzure> i want androids because i want to enslave the human race
15:39 < kanzure> what reason do you have?
15:39 < nmz787> or to display ads
15:39 -!- Juul [~Juul@50-0-83-116.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap
15:40 < nmz787> ad-droids
15:40 < nmz787> adroids
15:40 < kanzure> Juul: do you live with max ogden?
15:40 < nmz787> no i didn't mistype
15:40 <@fenn> nmz787: i'm going to send killer androids back in time if you do that
15:40 < Juul> kanzure, no. his place is awesome though
15:40 < nmz787> fuck tacos
15:40 < kanzure> "his place" ?
15:40 < nmz787> just hover around apartment buildings beaming ads in
15:41 <@fenn> i'm gonna deliver an atomic taco to your mouf
15:41 < nmz787> then i'd vote for legislation for micro ground to air missiles allowed for home use
15:42 < nmz787> screw halo
15:42 <@fenn> i, uh, i'd vote for that too
15:42 < Juul> he has the first floor on the corner of an old warehouse-type building with lotsa big windows. one big open space with a few smaller rooms in the back.
15:42 < kanzure> in sf?
15:42 < nmz787> oakland
15:43 < kanzure> hm. for whatever reason i got the wires crossed and thought he was hanging out at your place.
15:43 < Juul> nah, he hangs out at sudo room
15:43 < brownies> is that the hackerspa e?
15:44 < Juul> one of them yeah
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15:48 < nmz787> is he the eastbay biohackerspace?
15:49 <@fenn> typical nitromethane heli flight time is 7-15 minutes, "gassers" (?) up to 30 minutes, and there exist rc helis with 2 hours flight time but apparently it's a specialized thing
15:50 < brownies> why not just put a solar panel on top of the 'copter?
15:50 <@fenn> uff. this 25 pound payload helicopter sells for the low low price of $10300
15:50 < brownies> or is that the dumbest idea in the entire world?
15:51 < brownies> fenn: it's an RC 'copter that can carry 25 pounds? that seems pricey. that's only like 10 large burritos.
15:51 < brownies> fenn: link, though?
15:51 < kanzure> east bay diybio is not at sudo room
15:51 <@fenn> brownies: solar power actually works okay for glider planes
15:51 <@fenn> brownies: http://www.bergenrc.com/IndTurbine.php
15:51 < kanzure> solar panel is not going to work for something that guzzles as much energy as a quadrotor
15:52 < brownies> it's 5 feet long. that's... nontrivial.
15:52 -!- safitan is now known as mutagen
15:52 < brownies> "lead time is 3-4 weeks" ... so they build it on-demand.
15:52 < brownies> i wonder who buys such things?
15:53 <@fenn> hollywood film makers
15:53 < brownies> not a very large market.
15:53 < brownies> if it was 10x cheaper, i wonder who else could buy it?
15:53 < ThomasEgi> police, photographers...
15:54 < ThomasEgi> i know a couple of people who live off selling airial pictures of stuff like hotels, events, and locations
15:55 <@fenn> they have a lot of other helicopters, i just liked the red MSR fuel bottles
15:55 < kanzure> "but we are all aware of the fact that Github cannot handle the complexity of hardware projects. "
15:55 < brownies> ThomasEgi: are they in the US?
15:55 < ThomasEgi> no. germany
15:55 < brownies> ThomasEgi: how regulated is commercial UAV usage in germany?
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15:55 < kanzure> ughhh
15:55 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 5:17 PM, Matt Maier <blueback09@gmail.com> wrote:
15:55 < kanzure> > I can't build software, but my personal expertise does cover things like
15:55 <@fenn> ThomasEgi: but you don't need 25 pound payload for just a camera
15:55 < kanzure> > building consensus around technical subjects. So that's what I'll try to do.
15:55 < kanzure> > That requires collaborating with people other than myself; preferably as
15:55 < kanzure> > many stakeholders as possible. Thus, a committee with outreach access to as
15:55 < kanzure> > much of the relevant community as possible.
15:56 < kanzure> "stakeholders"
15:56 < kanzure> software is the only reasonable way to solve these problems
15:56 < kanzure> you can't just wish open source hardware into existence
15:56 < brownies> kanzure: "I can't build software, so I'm just going to talk about building software instead."
15:56 < kanzure> hahah
15:56 < kanzure> brownies: thank you for making my day better.
15:56 <@fenn> in summary, "i won't be of any help at all, but i'll get in the way and slow things down as much as possible. i'm actually a plant by the anti-open hardware consortium"
15:56 < brownies> hahaha
15:57 < kanzure> i love you guys
15:57 < brownies> seriously, who sees an effort starting up and is like "I KNOW! i'll ASSEMBLE A GIANT COMMITTEE!"
15:57 < kanzure> dude you should see this email
15:59 <@fenn> i'm surprised there aren't more autopilot/assisted pilot coaxial helicopters, since they're much harder to learn how to fly than a quadrotor
15:59 <@fenn> maybe coaxial is th wrong word
15:59 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/bf3342e661f6c6a2
15:59 < brownies> i think coax is correct?
16:00 <@fenn> anyway, conventional single-rotor helicopter
16:00 < kanzure> http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2011/improving-open-source-hardware-visual-diffs/
16:01 <@fenn> github does visual diffs btw
16:01 < kanzure> that's what that link is talking about.
16:01 <@fenn> well, image diffs
16:02 < kanzure> it's true that it's a pain in the ass to do visual diffs of cad files on github, but who cares. make a better git repository viewer if you care that much.
16:02 < kanzure> someone did do that with cubegithero or whatever, but his solution is proprietary and annoying
16:02 <@fenn> i automatically disregard anything-hero
16:02 < brownies> i honestly don't see anything about git that constraints it to software-only applications
16:02 < brownies> i use it all the time for documents, marketing materials, and all kinds of other stuff
16:03 < kanzure> well, people want things like auto merging
16:03 <@fenn> and i want a magical flying pony cat
16:03 < kanzure> except auto-merging 3d point clouds and curved manifolds => disaster
16:03 < brownies> right
16:03 <@fenn> there's a reason it's called "git" (aside from being easy to type)
16:04 <@fenn> and the reason is that merging doesn't work
16:04 <@fenn> in any domain
16:04 < brownies> merging branches in works fine if only 1 person has fiddled with every given file
16:04 < kanzure> i think it would be a huge improvement just to get people to put their fucking files in a shared repository with some sort of naming convention ("pulley.git", not "make-magazine-super-awesome-mechanical-motion-thing-for-your-thingiprinter.git")
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16:04 < brownies> and, as a corollary, it tends to fall apart hilariously if that is not the case.
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16:05 < kanzure> i think it is a mistake for these people to assume that they can just "let the software work itself out"
16:05 < brownies> kanzure: yes. generally, some standards and conventions and such?
16:05 < kanzure> no, putting files into a folder is pre-standards
16:05 < kanzure> it's just getting people to actually do that step itself -_-
16:05 < brownies> naming things intelligently usually requires conventions though =/
16:05 < kanzure> ok fine, i'll settle with "here are all of the required files"
16:05 < kanzure> and "we promise we're not hiding shit and making your job annoying"
16:06 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:06 <@fenn> how is it that scientific papers are all more or less the same format?
16:06 < kanzure> same publishers
16:06 <@fenn> i mean there was never any committee that sat down and published a standard
16:06 < kanzure> they all have the same latex templates
16:07 <@fenn> but aside from that, there's a general consensus as to how the content should be written
16:07 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:07 <@fenn> title, abstract, authors, background, methods, results, pontification, blather, references
16:07 < kanzure> sometimes authors appear at the end with pictures
16:07 < kanzure> and sometimes the references appear on each page, instead of at the end
16:08 <@fenn> hey what if we just omit the whole names part and just share pictures of the lab group
16:08 <@fenn> you can really get to know them, after all a picture's worth a thousand words
16:08 < kanzure> feeling alright?
16:08 <@fenn> i am more than a name!
16:08 < kanzure> aname is going to be hurt that you said that
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16:09 <@fenn> anyway it's a rare paper without a title, abstract, or bibliography
16:09 < kanzure> maybe next to my picture in my next paper i will write "He has coauthored over 200 emails."
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16:12 < brownies> "published over a thousand puns in major discussion channels"
16:12 < kanzure> *cat puns
16:13 < brownies> good catch.
16:13 < kanzure> or your small "bibliography" can be the type of bullshit that passes for profiles on VC sites
16:13 < kanzure> "He spends his weekends biking in the hills contemplating the value his iphone app brings to monks."
16:15 <@fenn> your bioblography
16:16 < kanzure> oh. biography. bibliography. whatever.
16:17 < abetusk> can someone explain what the open hardware meetings are about?  What are they hashing out exactly?
16:18 < kanzure> they claim they want to be hashing out open source hardware packaging formats, for putting things into reusable containers that you can use in other projects.
16:18 < kanzure> but they don't seem to know anything about any of the previously proposed solutions
16:18 < kanzure> or most of the existing cad formats (although they seem to be vaguely aware of some electronics software tools??)
16:19 < brownies> how about JSON? that solves every problem, right?
16:19 -!- Juul [~Juul@50-0-83-116.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
16:19 < kanzure> well, we chose yaml a few years ago and fenn wrote a specification
16:20 < kanzure> and we wrote a bunch of python first
16:20 < kanzure> and then someone reviewed it and decided to make his own version, but then abandoned that
16:21 < kanzure> the problem is that if i tell this matt guy that this is fundamentally a software problem, he wont believe me because he will think i have a vested interest in making people think it's about "this thing that i just happen to know"
16:21 < abetusk> but does software even have this?  I'm still confused as to what that means.  What is a reusable component?  A widget you can plug into KiCAD to act as a voltage regulator?  An adapter to put onto your widgets case?
16:21 < kanzure> abetusk: do you use a package manager on your computer?
16:21 < abetusk> Yes, git
16:22 < kanzure> git isn't /exactly/ a package manager
16:22  * fenn smells the pungent aroma of slack
16:22 < kanzure> do you run linux?
16:22 < abetusk> ah, as in dpkg
16:22 < abetusk> I'm running ubuntu
16:22 < kanzure> i think part of the problem is that apt-get sounds impossible/magical to just about everyone
16:23 <@fenn> because debian is in fact impossible/magical but somehow it exists, and nobody knows why or how
16:23  * kanzure pokes debian
16:23 < brownies> what's so magical about apt-get?
16:23 < brownies> there are packages; it gets them.
16:24 < kanzure> most people don't know what a package is
16:24 < brownies> ah, well, then, i suppose that would make it more mysterious.
16:24 < kanzure> and even if they do have a general concept of "installing things", that doesn't completely tell you about the ecosystem of package maintainers
16:24 <@fenn> yeah if you install an "app" it just downloads a tarball for each app
16:25 <@fenn> there's no such thing as "app dependency"
16:25 < kanzure> and then you have to explain the scale/scope of this
16:25 <@fenn> well, there is, but it's awful and never works
16:25 < kanzure> CPAN is fucking huge
16:25 < brownies> i've never had any big problems with aptitude
16:25 < abetusk> ok, so 'dpkg for hardware'.  I still don't know what that looks like
16:25 < kanzure>  cpan is 114,000 packages
16:25 < kanzure> abetusk: http://gnusha.org/skdb/ welcome to the channel
16:26 < brownies> shit does tend to be outdated, but considering the magnitude of the problem, i think they've done quite well. and shit has never broken or conflicted, which is really something.
16:26 <@fenn> kanzure: btw the packages directory has bit-rotted and i'm not sure what to do about it
16:26 < kanzure> they are in git repos on http://diyhpl.us/cgit
16:26 < kanzure> it's not worth it, i would prioritize getting someone to review the system and offer some better ideas at this point
16:27 < kanzure> appamatto: wow wtf. always always always use a contract. what the hell man.
16:28 <@fenn> how does versioning work in cpan? does each package specify an exact version it depends on?
16:29 < brownies> can we back up a bit and add some context?
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16:29 < brownies> what is the goal of a "packaging system for hardware schematics"? what are the use cases?
16:30 < kanzure> use case is sudo apt-get install nodecopter and out pops a nodecopter
16:30 < brownies> from... where?
16:30 <@fenn> from the 16 other manufacturing robots that also got installed as dependencies
16:30 < kanzure> materials and parts in your inventory, online ordering when necessary or wherever you damn well please, or from using machines in your inventory to make other machines
16:30 < brownies> "install" does not seem semantically valid, since in theory you'd want to magically build a second nodecopter later
16:30 < kanzure> correct
16:31 < brownies> so then let's use a better word... build? clone?
16:31 < kanzure> build doesn't work because there's software building too
16:31 < brownies> this feels very OOP-like tbh
16:31 < kanzure> anyway, before you can get to that point, you need hardware to exist in consumable packages
16:31 < brownies> you have a package repository, those are your classes
16:31 < brownies> then you grab a class and "instantiate" a nodecopter
16:32 < kanzure> http://thingiverse.com/ is just a bunch of stl files with no metadata
16:32 < brownies> you can instantiate other nodecopters later, and fiddle with each one without affecting the others, if you so like
16:32 <@fenn> except in this case the objects aren't metaphors, they're objects
16:32 < brownies> yes, sure.
16:32 < brownies> just makes the vocabulary even more applicable
16:32 < kanzure> brownies: http://gnusha.org/skdb/package_spec.html
16:32 < brownies> especially when you consider that we have a robust vocabulary for all sorts of related things like dependencies, parents/children, mix-ins...
16:33 < appamatto> kanzure, heh, why?
16:33 <@fenn> i think the idea of a 'class' first was applied to CAD stuff, like a square is part of the class of rectangles, and you can build houses and so forth
16:33 < appamatto> It seems like contracts increase the likelihood of someone being sued
16:33 < kanzure> appamatto: because that's the minimum level of respect for business that you absolutely must demonstrate to your customers.
16:34 < appamatto> kanzure, I'm talking about people I hire
16:34 < appamatto> Not my customers
16:34 <@fenn> why would you hire someone without a contract
16:34 < brownies> kanzure: (still reading your link) one of the problems here is that it is all well and good to have a pile of source files like you would for software, but you need more for hardware
16:35 <@fenn> yes you also need resources
16:35 < brownies> kanzure: specifically, software is "self-assembling" ... each source file includes/requires other stuff, there's an entry point, etc. but if you just do that with hardware, you just get a pile of parts.
16:35 < kanzure> brownies: i am aware of how broken this is. i am not aware of how to fix this.
16:35 < brownies> so you need some sort of dependency graph or assembly instructions.
16:35 < kanzure> yes.. that's in there.
16:35 < kanzure> or ... well. we have years of logs of talking about that in here.
16:35 <@fenn> software is not self-assmebling, it requires a computer to do so
16:35 < brownies> is that the point of "ontology"?
16:35 < brownies> because having an ontology does not satsify that, i think
16:36 < kanzure> you don't "get a pile of parts" if you are actually using connected cnc machines and arms
16:36 < kanzure> also, you can just tell your human to do things
16:36 < kanzure> but, this is all down-the-road things that cannot be designed into the system from day one (believe me, i've checked)
16:36 < brownies> i see. ok.
16:36 < kanzure> the minimum start to this is packages.
16:36 < brownies> so for v1 it would suffice to just have a "pile of parts" (if you will)
16:36 <@fenn> BOM
16:37 < kanzure> holy hell a pile of parts would be way better than the current situation
16:37 < kanzure> a pile of models and a BOM would be grand.
16:37 < brownies> BOM?
16:37 < kanzure> also plus dependencies, somehow.
16:37 <@fenn> bill of materials
16:37 < kanzure> like, there must be dependencies from day one, otherwise this will go nowhere.
16:37 <@fenn> it's like a shopping list for resources needed to construct the project
16:37 < brownies> kanzure: the other thing is, if you contemplate the way RubyGems came about (ignoring for the moment that it sucks in lots of exciting ways) you had a core group of people who declared a spec and then produced a bunch of packages matching that spec
16:37 < kanzure> dependencies are how projects can leverage other projects and become better
16:38 < kanzure> yes, we produced skdb packages
16:38 < brownies> ah. and then what happened?
16:38 < kanzure> for screws, legos, and other items
16:38 < kanzure> nobody cared
16:38 <@fenn> eh, the packages weren't very useful
16:38 <@fenn> also it wasn't sufficiently automated to make it easy to use
16:38 < kanzure> there was even this really ridiculous 3d lego editor
16:38 < appamatto> fenn, mostly because I don't want to get my friends to sign contracts
16:39 < appamatto> Yeah, if the project were such that they could cause serious damages somehow then I'd want a contract
16:39 <@fenn> also there were unresolved theoretical problems in engineering and manufacturing that nobody had ever considered, and problems with closed data (alloy specs etc)
16:40 < kanzure> s/closed/proprietary
16:40 < kanzure> not closed in the math sense
16:40 <@fenn> also we had some problems defining the scope of the problem
16:41 <@fenn> like, should the system be able to simulate two lego bricks being mashed together? should it simulate functioning machines?
16:41 < brownies> why would it simulate such things?
16:41 < kanzure> testing compatibility
16:41 < brownies> just have packages for lego bricks, and let the builder sort it out
16:41 <@fenn> so you can determine if the project can be constructed with the available resources
16:41 < kanzure> not all building blocks are legos, but some are interface/port-compatible
16:41 < brownies> you can declare packages (with fixed versions) that are compatible with your package, but that is not ever going to be a complete list
16:42 < brownies> anyone can examine your package and make something compatbile, of course.
16:42 < brownies> if there is a central package repo, then it can report the union of such sets.
16:42 < kanzure> oh it's so easy is it
16:42 < brownies> i think guaranteeing/testing compatibility is a rather high bar for v1, though, don't you think?
16:42 <@fenn> yes
16:42 < kanzure> (the point was not having to manually currate all of the possible combinations)
16:42 < brownies> kanzure: yes, leave me with my whiskey and an hour, i'll solve the problems of the hardware world. ;)
16:42 < kanzure> go ahead
16:42 < kanzure> you may proceed
16:43 < brownies> anyway i was just asking why SKDB didn't take off, since it seems like you covered all these bases?
16:43 < kanzure> also there's a bit of a bootstrapping problem with packages-with-dependencies
16:43 <@fenn> there's no bootstrapping problem
16:43 < kanzure> a pile of dependencies and... what are you going to do with it? oh great another part you don't have.
16:43 <@fenn> you have a computer and a human capable of reading
16:43 < kanzure> and then you have to get to ordering from the right places
16:44 < kanzure> well anyway; openscad looks interesting because people seem to sometimes use previous parts from other scad scripts, which is exactly like a dependency.
16:44 < kanzure> (just.. only a dependency for rendering-time or complete-the-final-shape-of-the-object-before-manufacturing-it time)
16:45 < brownies> ordering stuff also seems like very much a v2 feature
16:45 < kanzure> so you have a list of parts you don't have. how is that system useful?
16:45 <@fenn> brownies: part of it was that i lost interest just before people started talking about it (the first time around, on openmanufacturing)
16:46 <@fenn> motivation is such a fickle thing
16:46 < kanzure> brownies: https://github.com/kanzure/skdb (go easy on me. obviously a lot of these tools should be separate projects.)
16:46 < abetusk> so, can you walk me through how to use skdb to build a widget?  Say I have KiCAD files for the electronics, maybe even gerber files, a BOM, 3D design files for the case.  When I 'skdb-get widget', what happens?  All those files are downloaded?
16:47 < kanzure> if you already have those files, why would you download them again?
16:47 < abetusk> There's meta information for each type of file to tell me what type of file it is, how to use it, where to get it fabbed?
16:47 < abetusk> Sorry, say I wish to create a 'widget' skdb package that I would then want a friend to install
16:48 <@fenn> assuming you have a circuit board etcher, pick and place robot, and automated soldering station, and all the parts loaded and ready to go, the finished product just pops out
16:48 <@fenn> when pieces of this chain are missing, things get interesting
16:49 <@fenn> unfortunately we aren't at that point yet, because nobody has written the software to handle the in-between steps
16:50 <@fenn> so instead of a robot arm that knows the layout of your workspace and machinery, there would be a dialog that pops up saying "okay now put the circuit board in machine #1" and you click okay
16:51 < abetusk> so you're talking about an integration between all available tools?  So skdb now knows how to talk to LinuxCNC, OpenPNP, etc. etc?
16:51 <@fenn> oh, brownies a big reason nobody cares is that it's easier to just pay someone in china to mail it to you
16:53 <@fenn> abetusk: that's the idea
16:53 <@fenn> i got stuck on how to define a milling machine
16:53 < abetusk> ok, but this is a 'down the road' kind of integration, right?
16:53 <@fenn> sort of
16:54 <@fenn> even if you have all the cad files, it's a lot of work to figure out how to set up the machine to hold the raw material, what CAM settings to use
16:54 <@fenn> alleviating that burden is a large part of the goal for skdb
16:55 < abetusk> so what does skdb offer as of today?  How much help does skdb provide to let me download a widget and create it?
16:55 <@fenn> it lets you download the files for the widget
16:55 <@fenn> that's all
16:55 <@fenn> and sub-widgets
16:55 < abetusk> What does it offer over downloading a zip file with all of the files?  What does it offer of cloning a git repo with all of the files?
16:56 < kanzure> the package format is a git repo
16:56 <@fenn> it tells you what the files are
16:56 < kanzure> the whole point is to use standard things
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16:56 <@fenn> do you know how many file formats use .brd as the suffix
16:57 < abetusk> yep.  And are you running grbl or LinuxCNC?  because one has features the other doesn't support
16:57 < abetusk> etc. etc.
16:57 < brownies> that's crazy
16:57 < brownies> i mean, it's a nice vision, but starting with that in v1 is thoroughly insane
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16:58 < kanzure> i think packaging is a good start.
16:58 < brownies> it would suffice to literally have a list of parts and a pile of schematics, with some declared dependencies and compatabilities
16:58 <@fenn> brownies: but 99% of open source hardware projects don't even have that, and the specification was supposed to force things to comply
16:59 < brownies> they don't have that? well then a spec isn't going to force them to get those things
16:59 <@fenn> this is where yaml turned out to not be such a good choice, because there's not very good validation tools
17:00 < brownies> i thought they would at least have that =/ but anyway it would suffice for v1 to simply have a way to organize the sorts of things that most people have
17:00 < kanzure> yeah the other issue is that to get good data you basically have to redo a lot of open source hardware projects on your own
17:00 < kanzure> (with possibly the exception of reprap, maybe.)
17:01 <@fenn> there are some well documented projects, but even then most of it is implicit information
17:01 <@fenn> "of course you need a soldering iron and gcc, duh!"
17:02 <@fenn> which is easy if you understand what's going on, but not easy if you don't know what gcc is or what it's for
17:02 < kanzure> and then there's those evil BOMs that only list certain things but not all things
17:02 < abetusk> most hardware projects involve human intervention at some point
17:02 < kanzure> yeah but you shouldn't have to become an expert just to assemble some parts
17:02 < kanzure> there's no way you're going to build your space colony at that rate
17:03 < abetusk> It sounds like most instructables pages have more documentation than most hardware projects
17:03 < kanzure> instructables are crap :(
17:03 <@fenn> i haven't even been able to get instructables pages to load for 2 years now
17:03 < kanzure> it's just huge blocks of text with some pics
17:03 < abetusk> some of them, but they tend to have step by step instructions and BOMs
17:03 < kanzure> and then you have to figure out NPL parsing of their documentation to figure out some representation of whatever hardware they are talking about...
17:04 < abetusk> If human intervention is key, then how can you get around it?
17:04 < abetusk> You either need human readable instructions for humans or automated machines that understand machine languages
17:04 <@fenn> nobody ever said human intervention is key
17:04 < kanzure> reading millions of pages of documentation is just not tractable
17:04 < abetusk> Then this is a completely moot discussion until we get the infrastructure for completely autonomous construction
17:05 < kanzure> (for a person)
17:05 < abetusk> I understand
17:05 < abetusk> and I agree
17:05 < kanzure> no, you can have humans put things together
17:05 < kanzure> and that's what they are doing now
17:05 < abetusk> By providing them instructions?
17:05 < kanzure> how is it moot to make that process even slightly less hilariously dmb
17:05 <@fenn> the trick here is to treat humans as just a class of agent
17:05 < kanzure> *dumb
17:06 < abetusk> trying to go all the way and try and get a full fledged system that is as simple as 'apt-get widget' and have it constructed right then and there is shooting way too high now
17:06 <@fenn> often when you say "and now the human puts the bread into the toaster" your audience starts assuming magical powers of intelligence and consciousness on the part of the human
17:06 < kanzure> i said packaging :|
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17:07 < brownies> kanzure: looking at your github repo, the most salient feature is that it's just too much damn stuff
17:07 <@fenn> meanwhile g-code can't even represent "object 1, location 1", much less "bread, toaster"
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17:09 < kanzure> maybe it would be useful to have a sort of low quality hardware packaging format where all user bugs are sent directly to the upstream projects
17:09 < abetusk> Look, I'm sorry for being dense, but my initial question is "what are the osh people doing with their documentation jam".  I don't understand what problem it is they're trying to solve that couldn't be done with github.  Or is that the answer?  Standardize hardware packages to github in some manner so that people have a BOM, a supplier and the necessary design files?
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17:09 <@fenn> abetusk: that's exactly what the skdb package spec says
17:09 < kanzure> abetusk: skdb packages are git repos that include those things (although not necessarily supplier info, that wasn't written down in the spec)
17:10 < kanzure> abetusk: the "ohw documentation jam" thing is just them being pigheaded about looking at previously existing solutions
17:10 < kanzure> and apparently they feel that the solution "can't" be software or something
17:10 < kanzure> see https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/bf3342e661f6c6a2
17:11 < abetusk> yeah, I'm on the list, I've been watching the thread
17:11 < kanzure> they just have a lot of attention because of their oreilly connections i think, but that doesn't mean they understand how to solve this problem... or that they are right about it being non-software..
17:12 <@fenn> i have no idea what matt maier is trying to say there, "approach software problems as customers"
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17:12 <@fenn> like, we should be buying software?
17:12 <@fenn> we should be selling software?
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17:12 < abetusk> ok, so this is what I was trying to get at with an skdb example.  So if I were to use skdb to package my widget, I would have some standard files/directories to put in BOMs, design files and the like?  When someone downloads it, they would know to go to the 'design' directory, say, to find the openscad files for the case that they can then 3d print?
17:12 <@fenn> -_-
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17:13 <@fenn> abetusk: yeah, more or less
17:13 <@fenn> instead of directories we have a metadata file
17:13 < abetusk> Is there an example tutorial on how to package a widget and how to get and interpret the downloaded widget?
17:14 < kanzure> actually yes
17:14 < kanzure> i wonder where that tutorial went
17:15 <@fenn> i don't remember where the tutorial was, but i think the spec itself is pretty self-explanatory: https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/doc/package_spec.yaml
17:16 <@fenn> hmm
17:17 < kanzure> brownies: long list of "mvp" issues.
17:19 < abetusk> so is there a lego or bolt example skdb package I can get?
17:20 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit some of these are sample packages
17:20 < kanzure> like cathal garvey's dremelfuge
17:21 < abetusk> thanks
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17:23 < eudoxia> >13:36 < kanzure> tangiblebit and skdb both had considerations for different types of dependencies (like "run time" and "physical build time") but neither had any traversal algorithm (which is trivial, but it just wasn't written)
17:23 < eudoxia> kanzure, was this supposed to be in dep.py?
17:23 <@fenn> hrm. the template thing in lego/metadata.yaml is pretty confusing if it's the first thing you see
17:29 < kanzure> fenn: a lot of this should just be removed, or even just replaced with a separate tool/library that doesp recisely one thing very well
17:29 < kanzure> eudoxia: tangiblebit is in tangiblebit.git
17:29 <@fenn> yeah. abetusk this is the canonical example package metadata; i'd just ignore the "template" part: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/screw/tree/metadata.yaml
17:30 < eudoxia> oh i didn't know about tangiblebit
17:30 < eudoxia> oh wait that's that riseup group
17:30 <@fenn> where the hell did screw.step go
17:30 <@fenn> gah
17:32 <@fenn> kanzure: do you remember why the interface description ("template") is even in the metdata file?
17:32 < kanzure> wtf "The (open and/or free) tools available at the moment, including the ones on Github, are not up to the task of tracking all of the interrelated dimensions of a hardware project well enough to allow an "actively open" level of activity. When we remix the digital elements of a hardware project we are not messing around with the project itself; we are merely adjusting a description of the project."
17:32 <@fenn> something about not downloading the whole package in order to determine whether to download it or not
17:32 < kanzure> fenn: some yaml reason
17:32 < kanzure> fenn: or that
17:32 < kanzure> whatever. it's dumb. it's all dumb.
17:33 < kanzure> "By way of a supporting example, I'd like to direct your attention to the LifeTrac Fabrication instructions over at Open Source Ecology. I know those instructions are pretty good because I wrote them. But, for the same reason, I also know that they are dead."
17:33 < kanzure> duh because it's on a fucking wiki and we warned you against this
17:33 < eudoxia> fenn: well if you're building some package and you need a part that fits into an interface with, say, diameter x length y, you'd want to know the properties on the matching interface on that package
17:34 <@fenn> kanzure: he holds that view because they have no automation, they do everything by hand
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17:34 < kanzure> yeah, this guy just seems like an idiot
17:34 <@fenn> there is no "project" beyond instructions for a human
17:34 < kanzure> "To sum up: hardware projects are more complicated because more variables have to be accounted for if the instructions are to be correct. It is currently possible to capture that complexity and to store it on Github, but it is not possible to interact with it in a way that allows for the project to be "truly" open. "
17:34 < kanzure> i bet he thinks doc tools are evil magic
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17:34 < kanzure> "what! you generate your documentation from thoughtful comments and docstrings?"
17:35 <@fenn> eudoxia: the diameters and lengths are in a different file though
17:35 < kanzure> i don't even know where to begin delineating a list of reasons for why he is doing it wrong
17:35 <@fenn> ugh, has he ever tried to use doxygen
17:36 <@fenn> sadface
17:36 < kanzure> doxygen has its warts but.. uh. better than not doxygen.
17:36 < kanzure> actually, this would be a good moment for you to reply to them and re-iterate your OSE complaints
17:36 <@fenn> but it's not documentation
17:36 < kanzure> especially since it will be heard by some people who claim they are interested in helping
17:36 < kanzure> in fact, you can probably just reuse a previous OSE hatemail letter
17:36 < kanzure> probably word for word
17:36 < kanzure> just send it every 4 years you'll be fine
17:37 <@fenn> mrr
17:37 <@fenn> [Folder "manufacturing" opened with 7,305 messages - 4,514 new]
17:38 < kanzure> well 1000 of those are probably paul fernhout
17:39 < kanzure> also you should consider his email in the context of his last one
17:40 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/bf3342e661f6c6a2
17:40 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/8d82fda1bb088c5a
17:45 <@fenn> okay so why not translate .openproj to yaml or whatever
17:45 < kanzure> i haven't seen the openproj format
17:45 <@fenn> it's a binary database format
17:45 < kanzure> why
17:45 <@fenn> personally i don't give a shit about openproj, but it seems like a pretty wimpy excuse
17:46 < kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/projects/openproj/
17:46 < kanzure> oh this looks disgusting. a project management gui?
17:46 <@fenn> would he prefer that its native format were arbitrarily-ordered XML? how about some other text format?
17:46 < kanzure> what information is in here? TODO?
17:47 <@fenn> i mean diffs are nice and all, but usually you look at the commit message first
17:47 < kanzure> why the fuck would you make this "No one can read or edit the actual OpenProj file without the software."
17:47 < kanzure> this guy is insane
17:47 <@fenn> he didn't make openproj, and "insane" is a bit of an overreaction
17:48 < kanzure> if your goal is to make gantt charts it seems like an ok tool
17:48 <@fenn> the analogy is with binary cad files and needing a cad program to read/write them
17:48 <@fenn> but since he's not an engineer he only knows gantt charts i guess
17:50 <@fenn> anyway i don't think a project hosting site needs to be able to read and write every file format imaginable
17:51 <@fenn> but it's not too much to ask someone to download the required software to edit the source file if they want to contribute to the project
17:52 <@fenn> would you rather they be able to commit code changes without having compiled the code? no way, and cad is no different
17:52 < kanzure> fine; but why is the gui mandatory
17:53 <@fenn> because whoever wrote openproj hates you
17:55 <@fenn> i'm sure there's some excellent essay by the project gutenberg guy about why ascii text will never die
17:55 < kanzure> you mean the textfiles.com guy?
17:56 <@fenn> no, that seems to be about the bbs scene in the early 90's
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17:58 <@fenn> http://hart.pglaf.org/
17:59 <@fenn> he has a specific interpretation of what an "ebook" is that aligns with my ideas about sharing hardware designs
17:59 <@fenn> maybe it's just OCD, i dunno
18:00 < kanzure> gah this stuff just hurts to read http://lists.oshwa.org/pipermail/discuss/2013-March/000470.html
18:00 <@fenn> today i've been reading about extinct alternative phoneticization systems for japanese and chinese
18:01 <@fenn> it took a government mandate for everyone to stop inventing their own personal lettering system and use the same letters
18:02 < kanzure> neat
18:02 <@fenn> a visiting german thought there were 3 alphabets, but actually there were 2 major contenders and thousands of others
18:03 < kanzure> off with their heads!
18:03 < kanzure> what did the government mandate happens if someone uses their own lettering system?
18:05 <@fenn> they never really explained that
18:06 < kanzure> "if you don't eat your green beans, ISO will deploy drones to shoot you in the butt"
18:07 <@fenn> midori doesn't do so well with huge pages of japanese text.. oh the irony
18:09 <@fenn> apparently they just ordered all the schools to teach it and everyone else died out :(
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18:10 < kanzure> excellent strategy
18:18 < ThomasEgi> i wish they'd finally issue such an order for the imperial unit crap
18:18 < ThomasEgi> ordering metric. and waiting for everyone else to die out
18:19 <@fenn> "you only get the immortality treatment if you swear to use metric"
18:19 < eudoxia> "sorry, i can't operate on that tumor unless you tell me its mass in grams"
18:20 < ThomasEgi> i'd be perfectly fine with that
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19:00 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 8:56 PM, malcolm stanley <a.malcolm.stanley@gmail.com> wrote:
19:00 < kanzure> > There are millions of people like me who 'could' become competent and
19:00 < kanzure> > valuable members of this movement, but only if we are careful to consider
19:00 < kanzure> > their needs and assume, first and foremost, that they know nothing, and
19:00 < kanzure> > bring a willingness to explain and educate as part of our core activity.
19:01 < kanzure> but... we were talking about making a standard for open source hardware packaging.. and somehow i am supposed to feel bad that you don't know what you're talking about?
19:01 < eudoxia> why can't people just sit down and code
19:03 < brownies> eh? where are the MVP issues?
19:03 < brownies> kanzure: first we must educate the world and learn to live in peace with one another
19:04 < brownies> only then we can hope to create a reasonable package format for hardware
19:04 < eudoxia> hahahhaha
19:05 < kanzure> brownies: MVP issues with skdb? you were recognizing the issues earlier, except in more words.
19:08 < kanzure> it occurs to me that maybe he sent that email just to genuinely ask the question, and not because he felt like he is going to define some standards or whatever.
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19:31 < kanzure> fenn: are you going to write that counter ose email?
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19:44 < kanzure> > According to our current community standards, the LifeTrac Fabrication instructions
19:44 < kanzure> > would generally not be regarded as an "open" part of the tractor's open source hardware
19:44 < kanzure> > release because you have chosen to not publish the original design files. So as a "supporting
19:44 < kanzure> > example" to argue that releasing the design files alone isn't enough to be considered
19:44 < kanzure> > "truly open," it doesn't provide much support.
19:44 < kanzure> haha i like this guy
19:45 < kanzure> "Case in point: the actual hardware designs for the LifeTrac *are* on github, even though a pricey chunk of software is required to modify them."
19:45 < kanzure> where?
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20:06 < kanzure> hah what https://github.com/Amakaruk/OSELifeTrac
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21:10 < kanzure> heh nice to see bram cohen laying it down https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5443618
21:10 < kanzure> "Can anyone with a more recent exposure to p2p stuff comment on whether this is indeed an innovation or is it just a PR spin on a patent application?"
21:11 < kanzure> "This patent does not claim anything novel. This idea of "clubs of peers" or groups has been around for a while. This well known paper from Torino, Italy, written a few years ago: "overlays are maintained by peers organized in clusters that represent sets of collaborating peers","
21:11 < kanzure> and bram says.. "The traditional overlay approach involves a bunch of full trees, and uses multiple trees as a way around dealing with leaf nodes being unutilized. My approach uses multiple groupings, which do not overlay, screams within them, and does something completely different for the last hop. They're completely different architectures. I have trouble taking seriously any paper which says that it makes heavy use of multiple description ...
21:11 < kanzure> ... coding. If you have congestion control, skips should be an extreme and bad event."
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21:51 < kanzure> wow... wtf
21:51 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Matt Maier <blueback09@gmail.com> wrote:
21:51 < kanzure> > Then we disagree about another point of "openness." Unlike software, certain
21:51 < kanzure> > electronics, or 3D printable parts, the LifeTrac was not completely designed
21:51 < kanzure> > in a computer. It wasn't even completely planned out. The design evolved
21:51 < kanzure> > after metal touched metal and those instructions merely document a stable
21:51 < kanzure> > phase. They were already out of date when they were finalized, but they do
21:51 < kanzure> > describe a complete version of the machine.
21:52 < kanzure> this is getting weird
21:52 < kanzure> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 11:50 PM, Matt Maier <blueback09@gmail.com> wrote:
21:52 < kanzure> > As far a I'm concerned, that qualifies a "open" because that's all anyone
21:52 < kanzure> > needs. Unlike the places where open source is most popular, structures and
21:52 < kanzure> > mechanisms do not always depend on digital files. Blueprints and sketches
21:52 < kanzure> > and cardboard prototypes aren't any good to anyone else. What everyone else
21:52 < kanzure> > needs is an after-the-fact description of how the project actually works,
21:52 < kanzure> > not a before-the-fact description of how it might work. Even if the
21:52 < kanzure> > "original" files exist in any meaningful way they are only useful to satisfy
21:52 < kanzure> > historical curiosity.
21:53 < kanzure> "It wasn't even completely planned out."
22:01 < kanzure> and this, kids, is what we call technical debt.
22:17 < kanzure> http://blog.cloudflare.com/the-ddos-that-knocked-spamhaus-offline-and-ho
22:17 < kanzure> "The basic technique of a DNS reflection attack is to send a request for a large DNS zone file with the source IP address spoofed to be the intended victim to a large number of open DNS resolvers. The resolvers then respond to the request, sending the large DNS zone answer to the intended victim. The attackers' requests themselves are only a fraction of the size of the responses, meaning the attacker can effectively amplify their attack to ...
22:17 < kanzure> ... many times the size of the bandwidth resources they themselves control."
22:18 < kanzure> "We recorded over 30,000 unique DNS resolvers involved in the attack. This translates to each open DNS resolver sending an average of 2.5Mbps, which is small enough to fly under the radar of most DNS resolvers."
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22:37 < kanzure> > far out of the computer that it requires welding you are beyond the ability
22:37 < kanzure> > of "source files" to be anything other than helpful. The records of a
22:37 < kanzure> > machine always have to be updated with all of the little things that you
22:37 < kanzure> > ACTUALLY did when you built it. If you were to give someone the original
22:37 < kanzure> > files, the ones that haven't been updated based on reality, they would not
22:37 < kanzure> uh.. why does welding nto get to be recorded? i think he is lying.
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23:03 < kanzure> sbean: hello
23:03 < sbean> kanzure: hello
23:06 < kanzure> sbean: what brings you these ways?
23:06 < sbean> wanted to check out paperbot
23:10 < sbean> reading the source to see how to use it :)
23:11 < sbean> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477513107003312
23:13 < kanzure> sbean: paperbot does not "try harder" unless you explicitly tell paperbot to fetch something. if it fails using the zotero translation-server, then it wont try again unless you asked it to (because we don't want error messages flooding the channel on every link).
23:13 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477513107003312
23:14 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Outcome%20of%20surgical%20management%20of%20concealed%20penis.txt
23:14 < sbean> got it
23:14 < kanzure> unfortunately sciencedirect seems to be broken at the moment
23:14 < kanzure> paperbot needs to be rewritten, if you have any python chops then it would be awesome if you could just delete the current bullshit and write a plugin system.
23:14 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MiamiImageURL&_cid=273056&_user=1694017&_pii=S1477513107003312&_check=y&_origin=article&_zone=toolbar&_coverDate=2007--31&view=c&originContentFamily=serial&wchp=dGLzVlk-zSkzV&pid=1-s2.0-S1477513107003312-main.pdf&_valck=1&md5=59c8e027d4280a8948a6fd3be464a3e9&ie=/sdarticle.pdf
23:14 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/b49fabc978a97b632983dbb59c6c5850.txt
23:14 < kanzure> damn. no access.
23:16 < sbean> paperbot: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4773330&contentType=Standards&queryText%3Dpassword
23:16 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/da724a6706fccb9e9614774e795be47c.txt
23:16 < kanzure> ieeexplore access is splotchy at best.
23:17 < sbean> whats a good site to try?
23:17 < kanzure> in the future i will have paperbot try different ezproxy logins to attempt to grab a paper instead of just giving up.
23:17 < kanzure> well paperbot never has 100% access to any closed publication because of how subscriptions tend to work.
23:17 < kanzure> nature tends to work alright.
23:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=5509165
23:18 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/820efc6e1b24bacba0d9e978ecac95f8.pdf
23:18 < sbean> very cool :)
23:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nprot/journal/v7/n6/abs/nprot.2012.048.html
23:18 < paperbot> HTTP 401 unauthorized http://www.nature.com/nprot/journal/v7/n6/pdf/nprot.2012.048.pdf
23:18 < kanzure> oops
23:18 < sbean> :)
23:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nprot/journal/v7/n12/abs/nprot.2012.140.html
23:18 < paperbot> HTTP 401 unauthorized http://www.nature.com/nprot/journal/v7/n12/pdf/nprot.2012.140.pdf
23:19 < kanzure> paperbot: http://apl.aip.org/resource/1/applab/v100/i18/p181112_s1
23:19 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Tesla%20coil%20discharges%20guided%20by%20femtosecond%20laser%20filaments%20in%20air.pdf
23:19 < kanzure> there we go.
23:20 < kanzure> are you in utah?
23:20 < sbean> yep\
23:22 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:22 -!- ParahSail1n [~pwang@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
23:22 < sbean> doing some coding for a torrent site that has journals, ran across paperbot
23:22 -!- ParahSail1n [~pwang@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:23 < kanzure> sbean: which torrent site?
23:23 < sbean> a private tracker
23:23 < kanzure> sbean: you might also be interested in http://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front
23:23 < kanzure> btw if you can get me access to someone who is willing to seed 10 TB of data, lemme know.
23:23 < sbean> thanks
23:24 < sbean> lol
23:24 < sbean> 10tb of journals?
23:24 < kanzure> don't ask me that! what's wrong with you.
23:24 < sbean> sorry :)
23:25 < sbean> pdfs?
23:26 -!- cerillio [~androirc@217.72.221.154] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:26 < sbean> I'll just pm you
23:26 < cerillio> Hey bryan
23:27 < kanzure> hello cerillio
23:27 < cerillio> Aka Nils
23:27 < kanzure> sbean is being introduced to paperbot and http://groups.google.com/group/science-liberation-front
23:27 < cerillio> But that was taken
23:29 < sbean> kanzure pm
23:37 < kanzure> ok.
23:37 < sbean> this tracker is run by staff from some of the biggest private trackers out there
23:37 < kanzure> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:52 AM, Matt Maier <blueback09@gmail.com> wrote:
23:37 < kanzure> > As far as I know OSE didn't design the LifeTrac in CAD; they just used CAD
23:37 < kanzure> > afterwards to create a digital blueprint.
23:38 < kanzure> tsk tsk
23:38 < kanzure> sbean: neat, glad to hear that
23:38 < sbean> started as magazines/newspapers but users want more journals
23:38 < kanzure> are you paid by the tracker?
23:39 < sbean> no
23:39 < kanzure> volunteer?
23:39 < sbean> everyone is
23:40 < sbean> the reward is even being able to access the site
23:40 -!- mako [~mako@wireless-nat-7.auckland.ac.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:40 < sbean> just like what.cd, passthepopcorn, etc
23:40 < kanzure> haha whatever
23:40 < sbean> no, really
23:40 < kanzure> didn't what.cd ask for blood samples from your maternal grandmother or something
23:41 < sbean> yep
23:41 < sbean> so people value their access :)
23:41 < kanzure> why should i be tempted?
23:41 < sbean> I had to do a 4 hr interview to get on
23:41 < kanzure> what do you have that i do not?
23:41 < sbean> well right now, not much as far as journals go
23:42 < sbean> what is zotero?
23:42 < kanzure> it was originally a firefox plugin for extracting bibliographies and pdfs from academic publisher's sites.
23:43 < kanzure> paperbot uses zotero in headless mode to extract metadata from a publisher's site, including a link to the pdf (although not always; it's hit-or-miss, so there's some other shitty paperbot code for the other situations)
23:43 < kanzure> http://zotero.org/
23:43 < kanzure> https://github.com/zotero/translators
23:43 < kanzure> https://github.com/zotero/translation-server
23:44 < sbean> interesting
23:44 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot
23:44 < kanzure> also i guess you should also look at https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia if you are interested in maintaining private tracker anonymity
23:46 < sbean> seen that
23:48 -!- cerillio [~androirc@217.72.221.154] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:48 -!- cerillio [~androirc@tmo-107-187.customers.d1-online.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:52 < cerillio> Yawn
23:52 < sbean> thanks for the info, I'll come back when I have 10tb free :)
23:52 < cerillio> I really need to hack my sleep cycle
23:53 < kanzure> get rid of the kids, that's step 1
23:53 -!- sbean [~sbean@67.51.1.15] has left ##hplusroadmap []
23:53 < kanzure> who was that guy.
23:54 < cerillio> Lol
23:55 < cerillio> Never,  i wait until they grow up. That's when most of the other folks get theirs and I'll be only 45 then
--- Log closed Wed Mar 27 00:00:39 2013