--- Log opened Sat Apr 06 00:00:49 2013
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00:14 < AshleyWaffle> Hi
00:14 < AshleyWaffle> night, I'll be on tomorrow
00:28 < kanzure> http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et "Fixing E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial for the Atari 2600"
00:32 < JayDugger> Seriously? "why do people hate E.T.?"
00:32 < JayDugger> Answer: "It was completely non-violent. You can't hurt the bad-guys, and they can't hurt you. There isn't even any competition!"
00:32 < JayDugger> I remember playing that game as a child. Boring.
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00:46 < chido> kanzure: he's part of my lab :)
00:46 < kanzure> excellent
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01:03 < kanzure> redsocks really eats up cpu if you let it run forever
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01:24 < kanzure> $35/hour for... well it doens't [A[A[A[A
01:24 < kanzure> irssi error. bleh.
02:11 < nmz787> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons
02:13 < nmz787> we're billionaires!
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04:37 < pasky> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21829114.700-hacked-medical-scanner-becomes-a-nuclear-forge.html - seems like the mainstream media notion of "hacking" is shifting in the good direction :)
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09:12 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0060410
09:12 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Non-Invasive%20Brain-to-Brain%20Interface%20%28BBI%29%3A%20Establishing%20Functional%20Links%20between%20Two%20Brains.pdf
09:12 < kanzure> "Non-Invasive Brain-to-Brain Interface (BBI): Establishing Functional Links between Two Brains"
09:12 < kanzure> "Transcranial focused ultrasound (FUS) is capable of modulating the neural activity of specific brain regions, with a potential role as a non-invasive computer-to-brain interface (CBI). In conjunction with the use of brain-to-computer interface (BCI) techniques that translate brain function to generate computer commands, we investigated the feasibility of using the FUS-based CBI to non-invasively establish a functional link between the brains ...
09:12 < kanzure> ... of different species (i.e. human and Sprague-Dawley rat), thus creating a brain-to-brain interface (BBI). The implementation was aimed to non-invasively translate the human volunteer’s intention to stimulate a rat’s brain motor area that is responsible for the tail movement. The volunteer initiated the intention by looking at a strobe light flicker on a computer display, and the degree of synchronization in the electroencephalographic ...
09:13 < kanzure> ... steady-state-visual-evoked-potentials (SSVEP) with respect to the strobe frequency was analyzed using a computer. Increased signal amplitude in the SSVEP, indicating the volunteer’s intention, triggered the delivery of a burst-mode FUS (350 kHz ultrasound frequency, tone burst duration of 0.5 ms, pulse repetition frequency of 1 kHz, given for 300 msec duration) to excite the motor area of an anesthetized rat transcranially. The ...
09:13 < kanzure> ... successful excitation subsequently elicited the tail movement, which was detected by a motion sensor. The interface was achieved at 94.0±3.0% accuracy, with a time delay of 1.59±1.07 sec from the thought-initiation to the creation of the tail movement. Our results demonstrate the feasibility of a computer-mediated BBI that links central neural functions between two biological entities, which may confer unexplored opportunities in the ...
09:13 < kanzure> ... study of neuroscience with potential implications for therapeutic applications."
09:14 < kanzure> 1.59 seconds, geeze.
09:23 < FooQuuxman> Been waiting for non-invasive Mind-Machine interfaces for a while
09:23 < FooQuuxman> good to know they are starting to show up
09:25 < kanzure> it said nothing about minds, what the fuck dude
09:26  * kanzure finds lunch
09:26 < FooQuuxman> sorry, wtf?
09:26 < kanzure> read it again. it says nothing about minds.
09:26 < FooQuuxman> Brain, Mind, whats the difference?
09:26 < kanzure> tremendous.
09:28 < FooQuuxman> or better way to put it: what is the difference as far as pluging in goes?
09:29 < kanzure> studying one of them will lead to actionable results
09:29 < kanzure> the other will not
09:29 < abetusk> one is the organ, the other is what the organ does
09:29 < kanzure> not really
09:30 < abetusk> unless you're a dualist
09:30 < FooQuuxman> oh I see, that makes more sense
09:30 < kanzure> i am not a dualist, i just believe philosophers tend to suck
09:30 < FooQuuxman> *tend* to?
09:30 < kanzure> and that philosophy is no replacement for actually poking at the brain
09:30 < abetusk> you'll get no argument from me
09:32 < kanzure> also the other part of your comment that i found objectionable was the part about waiting
09:33 < kanzure> perfect storm of terrible things
09:53 < AshleyWaffle> kanzure: I agree about the waiting thing. But it's pretty clear he meant brain
09:53 < AshleyWaffle> I don't think you'll find any religious nuts here
09:53 < AshleyWaffle> So don't pretend that's the case
09:53 < AshleyWaffle> although... isn't FooQuuxman catholic or something?
09:54 < FooQuuxman> catholic, no
09:54 < AshleyWaffle> Are you religious?
09:54 < FooQuuxman> yes
09:55 < FooQuuxman> I would be considered a dualist, but the 'line' between mind and brain is currently too blury to be useful
09:55 < FooQuuxman> I could even be convinced that the mind is just software
09:57 < AshleyWaffle> FooQuuxman: Well, in a sense that's true I guess. A brain could just as easily be a random and meaningless neural network that does nothing. The configuration of neurons does matter a lot and I guess could be considered "software"
09:57 < AshleyWaffle> But I think we're all focused on the configuration aspect - computers can already do small neural network simulations
09:57 < ParahSail1n> ghoooooooooooossts
09:58 < FooQuuxman> woooooooooooo
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10:22 < kanzure> see! i spotted the dualist from just a single comment.
10:22 < FooQuuxman> woot! how many internets is that worth?
10:23 < kanzure> one. why are you here?
10:24 < FooQuuxman> because people on #mises kept saying that if someone wanted ideas for projects to come here
10:25 < FooQuuxman> I was here to look around and figure out the channel
10:25 < kanzure> what is #mises?
10:25 < FooQuuxman> as in ludwig von mises
10:30 < kanzure> i'm not seing the connection.. why would they tell you to come here?
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10:31 < FooQuuxman> nah, they weren't telling me, it was someone else
10:31 < FooQuuxman> Kelvin maybe?
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10:39 < kanzure> what sort of projects?
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11:40 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v45/n4/full/ng.2528.html
11:40 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Identification%20of%20seven%20loci%20affecting%20mean%20telomere%20length%20and%20their%20association%20with%20disease.pdf
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16:22 < kanzure> "Also, at the cheapest how much would a PCR reaction be (with and without polymerase)? Any thoughts?"
16:22 < kanzure> i think that goes away if you exercise more
16:22 < kanzure> oops
16:22 < kanzure> why would it be PCR if you have no polymerase
16:23 < brownies> just a regular ol' chain reaction
16:24 < ParahSail1n> maybe he means cost including and not including enzyme?
16:28 < ParahSail1n> you should ban mega from diybio mailing list
16:28 < kanzure> i am not a moderator
16:28 < kanzure> in fact i'm pretty sure they've considered banning me often
16:28 < ParahSail1n> oh is cathal moderator?
16:28 < kanzure> no
16:29 < kanzure> only mac cowell and jason bobe
16:30 < yashgaroth> man I would ban so many people from the mailing list if I could
16:31 < kanzure> kickbans for everyone!
16:31 < ParahSail1n> what did you do to piss them off kanzure
16:32 < kanzure> i have always been opposed to their ideas for making top-down policy decisions and shit
16:33 < ParahSail1n> i didnt know they had any policy decisions
16:33 < kanzure> because i kept yelling at them :P
16:34 < kanzure> things like, demanding that everyone signs on to a code of ethics
16:34 < ParahSail1n> what were they trying to police
16:34 < ParahSail1n> ah geez
16:34 < brownies> a code of ethics? for a mailing list?
16:34 < kanzure> or pretending to represent all of the interests of everyone on the mailing list
16:34 < kanzure> yes
16:34 < kanzure> they also wanted a moratorium on biohacking projects at one point
16:34 < ParahSail1n> fucking busybodies should just get busy
16:35 < ParahSail1n> diybio:biohacking::siai:ai?
16:35 < kanzure> jason gets grants from woodrow wilson foundation to "study" diybio
16:35 < brownies> "Thou shalt not suffer a thread to be off-topic"
16:35 < kanzure> brownies: nah, more specific biohacking ethics things
16:35 < kanzure> i think it is very misleading to claim to government bodies that everyone agrees to some code of ethics
16:36 < kanzure> for individual institutions/companies like biocurious and genspace, i think a code of ethics is a grand plan that works out pretty well.
16:36 < kanzure> of course, that's not diybio.
16:37 < kanzure> or, rather, it might be diybio but it's certainly not going to accurately represent the motivations of independent individuals working on their own biology projects
16:37 < kanzure> like cathal.
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17:53 < abetusk> um, so what is the cheapest you can source reagents for a PCR experiment?
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17:56 < ParahSail1n> assuming you can produce your own pol, dntps are the limiting reagent
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18:25 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: i don't think anyone in diybio has produced their own polymerase yet
18:26 < ParahSail1n> how that seems pretty incompetent-- i mean, i haven't either, but i haven't been in a wetlab for a while
18:26 < abetusk> I thought there was a guy selling taq out of his garage...?
18:26 < kanzure> who was selling taq?
18:27 < abetusk> Maybe I just have a faulty memory
18:27 < yashgaroth> wasn't avery doing something with opentaq
18:27 < abetusk> I thought you linked to it at one point, though I would probably have saved that link and I can't find it...
18:28 < kanzure> opentaq was what john schloendorn was selling on openbiotech.com
18:28 < kanzure> i don't know if john was making his taq himself or not
18:28 < ParahSail1n> cathal seems to be someone who does stuff, but he seems scared of patents
18:28 < kanzure> john sells a taq expression vector i think
18:29 < ParahSail1n> is it broken in some way?
18:29 < kanzure> no i think avery claims he got it to work at least once
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18:32 < kanzure> i still think a lot of his claims are unsubstantiated
18:32 < kanzure> "Ultimately, we anticipate no less than an industry-wide collapse of biological reagent pricing as a direct result of our open source policies. "
18:32 < kanzure> on http://www.openbiotech.com/Default.asp
18:34 < kanzure> "Open MasterMix is an optimized convenient premixed formulation of Taq polymerase and dNTPs in a buffer solution at 5x concentration for simple dilution when primers and template are added."
18:34 < kanzure> well i guess he is selling taq.
18:35 < kanzure> damn he is also selling a 293 strain?
18:35 < kanzure> i need to get in on this shit
18:36 < yashgaroth> and yet somehow not one e.coli strain
18:37 < abetusk> pOpenTaq, that's pretty awesome
18:39 < ParahSail1n> i can give you 293 cells
18:40 < ParahSail1n> wow 100 is not a bad price
18:40 < yashgaroth> can you give me some dh5a's?
18:41 < ParahSail1n> yashgaroth, i can do you one better
18:42 < yashgaroth> what, competent ones?
18:42 < ParahSail1n> get free samples http://lucigen.com/store/E.-cloni-10G-and-10GF-Chemically-Competent-Cells/
18:43 < yashgaroth> well they're not relA1- but I can live with that for $free
18:43 < ParahSail1n> recA?
18:44 < yashgaroth> nah, relA is the relaxed response to amino acid starvation where they still produce plasmid
18:44 < ParahSail1n> oh
18:45 < ParahSail1n> are 5alphas relA1-?
18:46 < yashgaroth> yeah, but honestly it's not a huge problem unless you're just doing overnight cultures, which I hope not to
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18:47 < yashgaroth> now to just make up an 'institution' for the request form
18:48 < kanzure> you can say you're with blackhatbio.com if you want
18:48 < ParahSail1n> put random words together
18:49 < yashgaroth> I don't think the local diybio lab is active enough to ship there, but I really doubt lucigen accepts residential addresses
18:49 < ParahSail1n> the employee reading the order form is not going to make more or less money depending on whether he vets all the institutions they send samples to
18:50 < yashgaroth> university of the house I live in
18:51 < yashgaroth> oh god "E. cloni®"
18:51 < kanzure> i thought it was a typo in the url
18:51 < ParahSail1n> yashgaroth, hey, the shit works
18:51 < kanzure> /store/E.-cloni-10G
18:51 < ParahSail1n> competent as hell
18:52 < yashgaroth> I wonder how well they store at -20
18:52 < yashgaroth> and by -20 I mean whatever my kitchen freezer puts out
18:52 < ParahSail1n> oh yeah dont squander them like that
18:53 < ParahSail1n> unless you just need a subcloning grade strain for making plasmid
18:53 < ParahSail1n> you can do pretty much anything to get e coli to make colonies on a plate
18:54 < yashgaroth> well if I had the plasmid ready I could just do the transfection upon receipt, but fuck re-competentizing cells
18:54 < ParahSail1n> so you could definitely store them as plate streaks or whatever
18:54 < yashgaroth> the local lab's -80 should be working aaaany year now
18:55 < ParahSail1n> you can pretty much grow up a batch of cells and pellet them down and mix dna and youll get colonies
18:55 < ParahSail1n> competency is for getting cloning to work
18:56 < yashgaroth> can you just send me an agar stab of them? assuming that you recommend them from personal experience
18:56 < yashgaroth> I would be super appreciative
18:57 < ParahSail1n> i dont have access to a lab anymore
18:58 < ParahSail1n> they'll give you a sample
18:59 < yashgaroth> how long have they been giving samples out for? if it's an ongoing thing I may wait til I have a more legit address
19:00 < ParahSail1n> they've "always" given out samples
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19:35  * brownies pokes kanzure 
19:35 < brownies> how many bookmarks do you have?
19:35 < brownies> does Chrome slow down after some threshold # of bookmarks?
19:36 < kanzure> i can't bookmark anymore because chrome crashes
19:36 < brownies> i... see.
19:36 < brownies> how many bookmarks did that involve?
19:37 < brownies> order of magnitude
19:37 < kanzure> not many. i have a primary bookmark collection of about 57,000ish. the one in chrome is <5000.
19:37 < brownies> yeah i have approximately the same amount in Chrome and it just... gave up on favicons
19:37 < brownies> that's a recent development, but i find it odd.
19:38 < kanzure> i've been meaning to send a bug report to chrome upstream but since i don't have debug symbols i stopped caring.
19:38 < kanzure> i get a segmentation fault when i add a new bookmark
19:38 < brownies> kanzure: where the hell do you keep 57K bookmarks?
19:38 < kanzure> elaborate file system
19:38 < brownies> ah, i can still bookmark. i just get major lag when i try to do so. or if i accidentally mouse over the bookmarks menu in the navbar.
19:39 < kanzure> originally my collection began in firefox, then i moved to opera which seemed more able to handle larger numbers of bookmarks. then i switched to this weird flatfile system thing that i'm not 100% happy with yet.
19:39 < kanzure> i think way back when my collection in firefox was using its dumb html bookmarking format before it got sqlite bookmarks :(
19:40 < ParahSail1n> i hear firefox isnt terrible memory leaker anymore?
19:41 < kanzure> firefox has been making improvements in a lot of memory leaking areas but as far as i can tell it still can't handle >400 tabs well.
19:41 < ParahSail1n> kinda reluctant to try it and see
19:41 < ParahSail1n> heh 400 tabs
19:41 < kanzure> i suspect that part of the problem was that firefox was always only 32 bit builds?
19:42 < kanzure> i think there might be a 64 bit nightly build
19:43 < brownies> eh, firefox's memory-leakage cured me of my desire to run >100 tabs. now i routinely stay under 50.
19:43 < brownies> so in a sense... it was self-correcting.
19:50 < kanzure> i want a better bookmarking solution
19:50 < kanzure> all the online tagging things don't really handle more than a handful of bookmarks well
19:50 < kanzure> "pfft only power users will have tens of thousands of bookmarks, and that will be just one guy"
19:50 < kanzure> well guess what that's me :(
19:51 < brownies> pinboard has been working fine for me
19:51 < brownies> i have well over 10K bookmarks
19:52 < kanzure> hm i admit i didn't try dumping everything into pinboard.in
19:53 < brownies> it's well worth the $10 or whatever he charges
19:55 < kanzure> i wanted to try historio.us at one point but it looked like it would break after two or three bookmarks
19:57 < brownies> i liked the idea of historious, mostly because i had the exact same idea myself
19:57 < brownies> but by that time i had already paid for pinboard, and then the pinboard guy rolled out his archiving feature, so that was that.
19:58 < kanzure> thug life.
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20:10 < ParahSail1n> paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41560160
20:10 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f6398794044dc24e9a357ea9f9611625.txt
20:52 < rigel> http://shop.lenovo.com/seind/SE/en/learn/products/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-edge/s430/index.html
20:52 < rigel> so where the hell do i get this laptop in the US
20:56 < kanzure> keyboard sucks
20:56 < kanzure> http://www.lenovo.com/shop/WW/products/splitter/notebooks/ThinkPad/Edge/gallery/ThinkPad-Edge-S430-Laptop-PC-Close-up-Keyboard-View-5L-940x475.jpg
20:58 < kanzure> i recently picked up a thinkpad w520
20:58 < kanzure> which has the non-sucky keyboard and 2x RAM capacity of the S430
20:59 < rigel> thunderbolt
20:59 < rigel> thats the only reason to get this laptop
20:59 < kanzure> ah.
20:59 < rigel> because 1394 is apparently dead on laptops
21:00 < rigel> and why the hell hasnt someone come up with a device/driver combo that can use a gigE port, like EVERY GODDAMN MODERN LAPTOP HAS NOW, as though it were e.g. 1394
21:01 < rigel> i mean sure you'd need to have some software to handle it somehow, but that should totally be possible
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21:08 < nmz787> ethernet has a fair amount of overhead
21:08 < nmz787> it's made to be able to pass through swithces and routers
21:09 < nmz787> so it's not as cheap as peripheral protocols can use
21:09 < nmz787> usb3 is pretty fast though
21:09 < nmz787> i don't like that USB can fit into ethernet ports actually
21:10 < nmz787> on my laptop, on the base station the ethernet is next to the power jack, and the power plug can fit into the ethernet port too
21:10 < nmz787> so that's pretty anoyying
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21:33 < kanzure> eleitl: alonzo is actually muted in here for those very reasons.
21:35 < ParahSail1n> ?
21:35 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: alonzotg believes that we are all conspiring to secretly upload him without his knowledge
21:36 < kanzure> ParahSail1n: and eugen has been debunking alonzotg's claims for years now
21:36 < ParahSail1n> how do you debunk such a claim
21:37 < kanzure> well, in particular, i was referring to eugen's recent emails
21:37 < ParahSail1n> ah
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21:41 < kanzure> also jrayhawk spent some time trying to debug him, i dunno if those logs are public
21:43 < ParahSail1n> by upload you mean upload his brain to a computer?
21:43 < kanzure> yes.
21:44 < kanzure> this thread- http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2013-April/076485.html
21:44 < kanzure> more obvious from http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2013-April/thread.html
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21:45 < ParahSail1n> and why do you guys take that theory seriously enough to expend energy responding in any way?
21:45 < kanzure> entertainment
21:45 < ParahSail1n> the mentally ill are always a good source of it
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22:12  * strophariad glances topicward
22:12 < strophariad> for nootropics, consider hericium erinaceus
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22:17 < nmz787> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org.proxy.lib.pdx.edu/getpdf/servlet/GetPDFServlet?filetype=pdf&id=AJPIAS000078000007000671000001&idtype=cvips&doi=10.1119/1.3427413&prog=normal
22:17 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c162878fe64919687fc5b56b7b3553e4.pdf
22:17 < nmz787> paperbot: are you getting old and/or tired? you seem a bit slow today
22:18 < yashgaroth> .botstim
22:18 < nmz787> or did it have to fail a ton of if statements?
22:23 < brownies> .botsnack
22:23 < yoleaux> :D
22:45 < kanzure> it has to fetch the target url twice
22:46 < kanzure> once with zotero translation-server
22:46 < kanzure> and then again with the python fallbacks
22:46 < kanzure> my guess is that when zotero translation-server tried to pull up scitation.aip.org.proxy.lib.pdx.edu it was hit with a series of redirects because most ezproxy instances are configured to let internal ip addresses through via http redirect
22:47 < kanzure> and then it downloaded the pdf to zotero translation-server, which doesn't know how to handle raw pdf (it only returns metadata to paperbot)
22:50 < nmz787> paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-24-10-670
22:50 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5c1d93f8a531d09f81923f84a7abdc56.txt
22:55 < kanzure> if you ever want to see something wacky..
22:55 < kanzure> paperbot: http://httpbin.org/get
22:55 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/fcd8bef2d335baa2c57599bacdaf2c49.txt
22:55 < kanzure> there used to be this service similar to httpbin that would show you multiple incoming requests to a target url
22:55 < brownies> huh. that is wacky.
22:56 < kanzure> there's actually two outgoing requests to httpbin.org/get but obviously only one is going to be showed there
22:56 < kanzure> this could be eliminated with a simple caching server if i was not lazy
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23:03 < nmz787> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00542-006-0367-9
23:03 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/A%20new%20DNA%20chip%20detection%20mechanism%20using%20optical%20pick-up%20actuators.pdf
23:05 < nmz787> paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2011/lc/c0lc00577k
23:05 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Optical%20tweezers%20directed%20one-bead%20one-sequence%20synthesis%20of%20oligonucleotides.pdf
23:19 < kanzure> anders will be speaking in stockholm tomorrow (monday) on whole brain emulation http://agenda.albanova.se/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=3904
23:19 < kanzure> archels: i think you're close? maybe?
23:30 < archels> too bad, I'm only going next weekend
23:31 < kanzure> email him and ask him to delay
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--- Log closed Sun Apr 07 00:00:50 2013