--- Log opened Sat May 18 00:00:30 2013
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01:02 < kanzure> east bay diybio is thinking of naming itself "counter culture labs".. patrik posted a possible logo:
01:02 < kanzure> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/east-bay-diybio/gKWElN8UhcI/VsV6j5yTXGgJ
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04:46 < archels`> kanzure: there's a large difference between 'counterculture' and 'counter culture'
04:47 < archels`> if they're dadaists, they should go for the latter
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05:47 < fenn> hm i read "metaphase" as "meatphase"
05:47 < fenn> it's a much more appropriate name for a bio lab
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09:35 < Urchin[emacs]> I'd just like to mention that I still have a public log on http://transhumanizam.fizika.org/hplusroadmap.log
09:36 < Urchin[emacs]> however, do note that it's close to 7MB
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10:18 < kanzure> https://github.com/nh2/hemokit "This is just a short announcement, in case anyone is interested: I made a Haskell implementation of Emokit, called Hemokit, to join the existing C and Python implementations."
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10:30 < kanzure> yash: hi
10:30 < yash> fuck my internet, hello
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11:30 < kanzure> their new name suggestion is "counter culture abs" i don't really know why they are dropping the l.
11:37 < yashgaroth> aww man how come they get a bioengineering professor
11:37 < yashgaroth> oh wait just a postdoc nm
11:37 < kanzure> hah. not as interesting eh?
11:38 < yashgaroth> not quite, though considering we only have like 4 actual biologists at the SD lab, it's still good
11:40 < kanzure> that sucks. the ratio of biologists to non-biologists is a little out of alignment.
11:40 < kanzure> hopefully you mean "actual biologists" and not "degreed biologists", i'll just assume it
11:40 < yashgaroth> there's a couple more who got bio degrees but then got the fuck out of biology a long time ago, which I can't really argue with
11:41 < kanzure> biology degrees are really all over the map. i think you only have to take one or two lab courses to get a BS?
11:41 < kanzure> i mean, one or two biology labs. maybe a chemistry lab.
11:41 < yashgaroth> ochem lab usually, and I only did two actual biolab classes
11:41 < kanzure> oh man. hah.
11:42 < yashgaroth> and there's plenty of people with general bio degrees, or like plant bio or something, who probably didn't need to do any of that shit
11:42 < kanzure> i remember the standard biology lab curriculum, and it's nowhere near enough to actually get acquainted with how a lab operates and what goes down.
11:43 < kanzure> i remember the TAs/teachers/whoever would always "set everything up", so it was ready to go for you. except setup is something you always have to do on your own in a real lab, and your setup is probably wrong, etc.
11:43 < kanzure> wouldn't it be awesome if the lab PI would setup all the experiments and work for each day before you arrived? damn.
11:44 < yashgaroth> well you do get 'how to use a pipette' and 'what is a beaker' but otherwise it's following the protocol, and the protocol is 'move small amounts of liquid between tubes and wait for X minutes'
11:44 < kanzure> "I threw out your pipettes, I hope you like using your mouth for suction. That's how real scientists pipette, you lazy fuck." ok maybe not such a great idea to let the PI reign..
11:45 < yashgaroth> 'go whore yourself out on the street so we can supplement our grant money'
11:47 < kanzure> also, i'm still surprised that 70,000 undergrads in biology graduate each year and so few of them end up in diybio
11:47 < kanzure> how is that less than 0.1% have their topic of study as a hobby in their off-time?
11:47 < kanzure> and i'm pretty sure a lot of them say they "love science", but if that was true then why is it just a job to them?
11:49 < yashgaroth> yeah it's weird
11:50 < kanzure> how goes operation san diego?
11:51 < yashgaroth> got the non-carpet flooring down in most of the lab area, moved a couple hoods into the tissue culture room
11:52 < yashgaroth> hopefully the meeting tomorrow will get some more done, because all our meetings now are 2-3 hours in the evening with a 0.5-1 hour commute each way
11:53 < yashgaroth> I just want the -80 running so I can safely order anything
11:54 < kanzure> ouch. have you guys considered just using irc/jabber/teleconferencing things?
11:54 < yashgaroth> they always complain that nothing gets done on skype, which is funny since nothing gets done at in-person meetings anyway
11:57 < kanzure> i forget who it was that had a reputation for doing this, but it was maybe thomas edison who had a reputation for preparing before every meeting and showing up with handouts, charts, figures, and then made his proposal to everyone. since he was always the only one prepared, they often went with his suggestions and plans.
11:57 < yashgaroth> yeah but then I'd have to do all that stuff
11:57 < kanzure> write three sentences down and email everyone? pfft.
11:58 < kanzure> although, chances are, nobody will read it anyway.
11:58 < yashgaroth> I sure wouldn't
11:58 < kanzure> pfft i don't believe that
11:58 < yashgaroth> I think we've been waiting for this one guy who has a bunch of equipment to bring the rest of it, that may be sunday
11:59 < yashgaroth> except he doesn't know what he has so apparently we can't plan until we actually have it
11:59 < kanzure> are you sure you want the equipment, then?
11:59 < kanzure> you might end up owning 100s of broken thermocyclers
11:59 < yashgaroth> yeah he's brought the majority of stuff, also the freezers centrifuges hoods and such
11:59 < yashgaroth> and he will now bring all his benches and some sort of other stuff
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12:00 < yashgaroth> he did bring our two dozen broken vacuum pumps though
12:00 < rigel> remind me, who here is in pdx again?
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12:01 < kanzure> jrayhawk, lichen, nmz787, sometimes bkero, rigel, that guy who raised money (i'm not looking at my notes, so forgive me)
12:01 < kanzure> mokstar
12:02 < yashgaroth> bioguy too?
12:02 < kanzure> randallagordon
12:02 < kanzure> oh right, bioguy
12:03 < yashgaroth> hey jmil you're setting up a lab right? have you found any concise guides on EH&S stuff or does the uni handle most of that
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12:04 < kanzure> i think i'm forgetting people.
12:04 < jmil> o/ yashgaroth
12:04 < jmil> yes i am setting up a lab
12:04 < jmil> ehrs has handbooks i think
12:05 < yashgaroth> ooh this looks pretty good, thanks
12:05 < jmil> yashgaroth: here is a good concise listing: http://safety.rice.edu/Chemical_Safety/Standard_Personal_Protective_Equipment/
12:05 < jmil> click through all the links yashgaroth they have a ton of info there
12:06 < kanzure> "Hey Guys, We're having another DIY biology get together this Wednesday. We think it's a good idea to meet up once in a while in order to create an active DIYbio community in Israel. This time we thought that Omri can tell us about the Glowing Plant Kickstarter project that he's a part of, and how DIYbio is an important part of projects like this. Also, I'll update on what's going on with starting the community lab and what everyone can do to ...
12:07 < kanzure> ... lend a hand. We'll be meeting this Wednesday at 19:30 at the Genome Compiler offices (Kikar Habima 2 Tel Aviv). Hope to see you all there, Aviv"
12:07 < kanzure> so.. that's where the "genome compiler" office is.
12:07 < kanzure> do we have anyone in israel who would be willing to do some infiltration work?
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12:11 < randallagordon> i just transplanted to pdx about a month ago
12:12 < kanzure> tyler gillies is the other person i was thinking of
12:20 < kanzure> rigel: there is also these guys from the diybio scene in pdx, but they don't show up in here: avishan saberian <avishan.saberian@gmail.com>, gabrielle marraro <gmarraro@gmail.com>, marshall peck <marshallpeck@gmail.com>, marta mccasland <martamccasland@gmail.com>, mitch day <mitch@mitchday.com>, erik hasenkopf <ehasenko@gmail.com>, matthew bertram <bertram.matthew@gmail.com>, timothy grundvig <tgrundvig@gmail.com>
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14:03 < jrayhawk> rigel or randallagordon other PDXers: I'll probably go bouldering Sunday around 16:00 at http://www.thecircuitgym.com/ SW if'n any of you want to join in
14:10 < kanzure> i am watching old commercials about gamesharking... this is what got me into hacking n64/gbc when i was 9-12:
14:10 < kanzure> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPpiFGIzOyw
14:11 < kanzure> what the hell is this? it's like informing kids how to escape to china if you get busted for dmca violations.
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14:13 < bkero> kanzure: I'm in Portland more nowadays
14:13 < bkero> kanzure: fun fact: Taiwan is not part of WIPO and has no DMCA.
14:14 < kanzure> thank you, i wasn't aware that anyone was giving the finger to WIPO.
14:14 < bkero> Yep, Taiwan
14:14 < bkero> Which is why for that kind of hosting I recommend getting a VM/colo in Taiwan
14:15 < jrayhawk> They're in TRIPS, though
14:17 < bkero> http://taiwancloudhosting.com/vpshosting2.php
14:17 < kanzure> what's weird about that gameshark commercial is that it's sort of a parody of all of the draconian anti-hacking laws, except their device is a legitimately useful hacking tool in the first place, so the parody part is sort of lost on me. as a kid i thought it was just marketing (but still sorta neat).
14:17 < bkero> jrayhawk: are you sure? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/World_Trade_Organization_Members.svg
14:18 < bkero> I see some gray
14:20 < kanzure> "video game enhancement" quite the euphemism..
14:20 < kanzure> http://youtu.be/HhoLuS9tXdU
14:21 < jrayhawk> http://www2.tipo.gov.tw/dl.asp?fileName=332614394937.pdf might have some useful information on enforcement
14:21 < kanzure> 1-900-773-SHARK.. hahh.
14:23 < bkero> KFC Smuggled into Gaza from Egypt: http://i.imgur.com/OV9IpSR.jpg
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16:16 < kanzure> .title http://blog.tinkercad.com/2013/05/18/autodesk_tinkercad/
16:16 < yoleaux> Tinkercad has found a new home at Autodesk | Tinkercad Blog
16:16 < kanzure> "We were impressed by the deep insight the Autodesk team had into the Tinkercad interface and the underlying technology. "
16:17 < kanzure> you were impressed that autodesk knew cad software?
16:17 < kanzure> other comments will probably end up here, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5730697
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17:16 < kanzure> "never trust anyone" apparently lulzsec was not cypherpunk, http://www.slideshare.net/grugq/opsec-for-hackers
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17:23 < kanzure> it's interesting how non-paranoid these guys were
17:25 < DonnchaC> Maybe they didn't really realise what they were getting into...
17:30 < kanzure> oh i didn't know about https://github.com/grugq/portal
17:33 < DonnchaC> Yeah  hardware based protection is good.
17:33 < DonnchaC> Could also run something similar with a raspberry pi, or firewall a VM for less protection but an easier setup
17:34 < DonnchaC> check whonix
17:34 < kanzure> a firewall isn't going to guarantee that your bytes are being routed through TOR.
17:34 < kanzure> and a vm wouldn't either, unless i'm missing something obvoius?
17:38 < DonnchaC> You can iptables the VM interface to block all traffic that isn't routed through Tor
17:38 < DonnchaC> the iptable rules would be in the host
17:39 < DonnchaC> then the guest VM would have no way to find its real IP providing protection from malware in the guest etc.
17:39 < kanzure> you can only use iptables to drop packets from certain ports, i don't think there's an extension that lets you guarantee the pid/origin of the bytes
17:40 < kanzure> there might be a lxc container thing though?
17:41 < kanzure> paperbot: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/05/13/0956797612466415
17:41 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20Ancestral%20Logic%20of%20Politics%20Upper-Body%20Strength%20Regulates%20Mens%20Assertion%20of%20Self-Interest%20Over%20Economic%20Redistribution.pdf
17:42 < kanzure> "In men of lower socioeconomic status, the correlation was reversed: stronger men were more in favor of redistribution, while men with smaller muscles were less likely to support it."
17:42 < DonnchaC> You can create a virtual network interface for the VM in VirtualBox or VMware and just route traffic to that interface
17:44 < kanzure> how do you know the pid of the origin of the bytes, though?
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17:55 < DonnchaC> You don't need to
17:55 < kanzure> huh? sure you do. you want only tor traffic..
18:06 < DonnchaC> Here are the rules used by Whonix
18:06 < DonnchaC> https://github.com/adrelanos/Whonix/blob/master/whonix_gateway/usr/local/bin/whonix_firewall
18:07 < DonnchaC> It only allows the Tor instance on the host to make external connections
18:07 < DonnchaC> all traffic on the VM interface to allowed prots is routed to the respective socks port
18:08 < kanzure> i don't see anything specific there except a port number, maybe you can show me what you're talking about.
18:08 < kanzure> i see --uid-owner but that's not helpful in this context
18:15 < DonnchaC> Lines 402 and 445
18:16 < DonnchaC> Those iptables rules and Tor instance is on the host VM
18:16 < kanzure> that's "iptables -t nat -A OUTPUT -m owner --uid-owner "$TOR_USER" -j RETURN"
18:16 < kanzure> --uid-owner just means "some pid where the owner is this specific user", it doesn't mean "from this specific pid"
18:16 < kanzure> i think that's the xt_owner extension on iptables
18:17 < DonnchaC> Yeah all traffic from guest is routed to one of the Tor socksports
18:17 < kanzure> so your claim is that traffic from the vm is $TOR_USER ?
18:19 < kanzure> ok i misunderstood, i thought you were saying that you were hoping that only a tor pid gets bound to a port
18:19 < DonnchaC> and then only traffic from programs running as Tor's user is allowed out on the guest VM
18:21 < DonnchaC> Sorry, i was a saying it in a bit of a weird way, but its a useful setup, even if it's not as good as physical seperation
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18:57 < kanzure> http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/03/12/anonymity-is-hard/
18:57 < kanzure> http://grugq.github.io/blog/2013/03/18/the-paddy-factor/
18:57 < kanzure> "One solution to making link analysis harder and less useful is to create unique nodes for each connection. Done successfuly, this creates a link graph of only 2 nodes and 1 edge. In practise, this means that every connection between peers should be unique to that connection, e.g. create a new jabber identity for each associate you have. Do not share these jabber IDs between different friends. The rule is simple: 1 friend, 1 jabber ID."
18:57 < kanzure> "These node to node links should be changed regularly as well. The old nodes must never contact the new nodes. That will contaminate them, create a link that associates them together. New clean break each time. This is intended to force the adversary to rediscover new nodes on a regular basis. Maybe next time they won’t be so lucky."
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19:14 < fenn> but isn't a pair of jabber IDs that aren't used for any other purpose "anomalous" in itself?
19:15 < kanzure> yes, i think they are just hoping that someone isn't able to determine the master list of jabber ids for a given jabber server
19:16 < fenn> i think a lot of this is assuming that the feds are smart enough to analyze logs in the first place, which is a highly questionable assumption
19:16 < kanzure> they seemed to have analyzed the lulzsec irc logs
19:17 < fenn> i haven't been following the case very closely, but i thought it was mainly because they were identified by the "ringleader"
19:18 < fenn> some kind of plea bargain because he was ph34rd for his kids' future or something
19:18 < kanzure> they made lots of mistakes: http://www.slideshare.net/grugq/opsec-for-hackers
19:18  * fenn grumbles about powerpoint
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19:19 < fenn> 154 slides?!
19:19 < kanzure> he is one of those jerks that puts a single word or picture per slide
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19:27 < fenn> wtf is the point of a cloak if it's just a hash of your IP
19:30 < kanzure> i dunno what he's talking about there, is he talking about the hostname and username that irc servers send to clients?
19:32 < fenn> yes, like [~aristarch@unaffiliated/aristarchus]
19:33 < fenn> the @unaffiliated is a cloak
19:33 < fenn> at least freenode gets it right
19:34 < kanzure> oh right they were on another network, so they might have been doing boneheaded things
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19:41 < kanzure> fenn: have you ever read the cyphernomicon?
19:41 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyphernomicon
19:41 < kanzure> ""The Cyphernomicon" is a document written by Timothy C. May in 1994 for the Cypherpunks electronic mailing list, outlining some ideas behind, and the effects of, crypto-anarchism.[1] It constitutes one of the philosophy's founding documents, advocating anonymous digital currency and electronic privacy, and touching on more esoteric topics, such as assassination markets."
19:41 < kanzure> http://www.cypherpunks.to/faq/cyphernomicron/cyphernomicon.html
19:42 < kanzure> oh wait this doesn't have the section on pseudonymity or anonymity.. weird.
19:42 < fenn> no i havent
19:42 < fenn> i read "cryptonomicon" though :P
19:42 < kanzure> i like how they specify "electronic" mailing list.
19:43 < fenn> yeah because "email" is inappropriate slang that doesn't belong in a wikipedia article
19:44 < fenn> actually it's probably copypasted from a wired magazine article from 1996
19:44 < kanzure> more likely nobody has agreed how to talk about mailing lists with each other.
19:44 < kanzure> and it's stupid that marketing/spam lists are also called mailing lists.
19:46 < fenn> some older academic types refer to the thing we know and love as a "listserv"
19:46 < kanzure> i've observed the same, specifically in older academics. i wonder how they all agreed to call them listservs.. was the actual listserv software popular back in the day? or was it majordomo/pipermail/mailman?
19:46 < fenn> a mailing list could mean anything from a bunch of addresses in the cc line to something like a newsgroup
19:47 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISTSERV apparently
19:47 < kanzure> with the long-period-demise of google groups there's not really anything good that is receiving developer attention
19:48 < fenn> woah sympa is older than mailman?
19:48 < kanzure> "In 1986, Eric Thomas developed an independent application, originally named "Revised Listserv" (also known as "Revised LISTSERV"), "
19:48 < kanzure> ok so people ran with the listserv name for other related software. maybe that explains it.
19:49 < kanzure> gnu mailman is pretty poorly written. under the hood it is a dark place.
19:49 < fenn> the name listserv makes sense at least.. it's a server for sending mail to a list
19:49 < kanzure> "Through version 15.0, individual user passwords were stored in the clear, and available to users who are listed as Site Managers or "Postmasters" in the application configuration, thus allowing unethical managers, or attackers who compromise the site, to easily try to reuse the username and password on other sites. Passwords are hashed to protect against this since version 15.5, which was released in 2007."
19:50 < kanzure> "hashed"
19:50 < fenn> it used to email you your password every month by default :(
19:50 < fenn> in plaintext, without informing you of the fact ahead of time :( :(
19:50 < kanzure> "The current version of Majordomo is 1.94.5, released Jan. 19, 2000."
19:51 < kanzure> "It recommends to use Perl 4.036"
19:52 < fenn> geesh
19:52 < kanzure> "Before Majordomo, mailing lists were maintained manually, with a list owner adding and removing participants by editing a text file. Most, however, moved to commercial mailing list hosting services, often with a stipend of $100 or more paid to the list owner by the hosting service in exchange for the transfer. Most of the hosting providers were subsequently bought out by Yahoo!, and merged into its Yahoo! Groups service."
19:52 < fenn> people still use majordomo
19:52 < kanzure> i still want to believe in group email
19:53 < kanzure> but often i receive painfully unformatted emails with little thought put into them on recent mailing lists
19:53 < fenn> it's because gmail buries all the duplicated crap automatically by default
19:53 < kanzure> but so do other clients
19:53 < fenn> kids these days
19:53 < fenn> when will they learn the value of netiquette
19:54 < kanzure> if you read old email archives, like extropians@gnu.csail.mit.edu or cypherpunk things, it's like reading a well currated research journal. everything is immaculately formatte and considered.
19:54 < kanzure> *formatted
19:54 < kanzure> but modern interfaces just throw you into an html wysiwyg thing and if it doesn't delete the last <blockquote> sucks to be you
19:55 < kanzure> (there are literally scenarios in the gmail composer wysiwyg thing where you can't delete leftover blockquotes)
19:55 < fenn> yeah i still haven't figured it out
19:55 < fenn> i'm constantly inserting blank lines and deleting them just to get rid of the quote marks
19:56 < fenn> anyway i use pine
19:56 < kanzure> i feel like a good listserv would help force participants to use good formatting and put thought into messages more... somehow.
19:56 < kanzure> "A very early version of Mailman was written by John Viega while a graduate student, who then lost his copy of the source in a hard drive crash sometime around 1998.[6] Ken Manheimer at CNRI, who was looking for a replacement for Majordomo, then took over development. When Manheimer left CNRI, Barry Warsaw took over. Version 3 has been under development since 2009, with second and third betas released in 2012.[3]"
19:57 < fenn> we saw where that line of thining went with "al bee"... basically it just made all the new people whine more
19:57 < fenn> thinking*
19:57 < fenn> i sort of like the xkcd interestingness enforcer bot
19:57 < kanzure> i think a good moderator is probably useful, but then participants have to care enough to get their text actually sent out.
19:58 < kanzure> when i reject emails on mailing lists, i've never received a revised version.
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19:59 < fenn> i'd like to think it's just a matter of expectations about email, but i've seen too much crap crap everywhere else
19:59 < kanzure> (probably because it's too annoying on any email client ever to go back and edit a previous email; the formatting has already changed by the time you have sent it, etc.)
19:59 < fenn> eh? can't you just edit the sent copy
20:00 < kanzure> yes and no, you can copy and paste it into a new composition box but you are going to have to fix all the formatting mistakes
20:00 < kanzure> or you can press 'forward' on your original email, then copy it, and then discard your draft, then open a new composition box, and delete the wrapper text around your forwarded message, and then edit your original email (if you were asked to revise it)
20:00 < fenn> hm. 分らない
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20:01 < kanzure> maybe i am just being overly pedantic, and these problems can't be solved with technology.
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20:02 < fenn> first we design a theoretically perfect graph-layout-based gestalt symbology
20:02 < kanzure> then raise venture capital
20:03 < fenn> 3) profit 4) goto 2
20:04 < fenn> i blame ted nelson for never actually implementing transclusion
20:05 < kanzure> brownies: what was your magic email solution? paid moderators?
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20:11 < brownies> kanzure: did we converge on a solution? i don't think we did.
20:11 < brownies> we did, however, lament the state of things for a while.
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20:32 < Mokstar> Whoo
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--- Log closed Sun May 19 00:00:31 2013