--- Log opened Wed Jun 26 00:00:07 2013
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06:59 < kanzure> what sort of sdr toys should i get?
07:00 < kanzure> also maybe i should get an aircrack-compatible thing
07:00 < chris_99> kraken
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08:44 < ParahSai1in> when is latest goog aapl lawsuit reaching verdict?
08:48 < kanzure> ask #startups
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09:00 < kanzure> i guess crw didn't like it here
09:01 < kanzure> or he finished catching up on email
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09:48 < kanzure> chris_99: http://www.embecosm.com/2013/06/26/preparing-for-parallella-sunday-21st-july-2013-bletchley-uk/
09:48 < kanzure> crw: welcome back
10:07 < ParahSai1in> ah goodie, i hope i have time to play with mine
10:14 < archels> Has anyone here ever messed around with tDCS or tACS?
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10:14 < archels> If yes, have you ever seen phosphenes?
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10:40 < crw> kanzure: thanks :) sorry, stepped out for a late breakfast
10:42 < gradstudentbot> My parents keep asking when I'm going to finish.
10:45 < chris_99> ooh cheers kanzure looks interesting (the parallela thing)
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12:02 < kanzure> archels: i think there's at least one person who has seen phosphenes in here
12:48 < archels> kanzure: I listened to an interesting talk from a guy from Rutgers today. He claimed that these phosphenes originate in the retina, even if the electrodes are positioned over visual/posterior areas
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13:38 < kanzure> archels: i find it hard to believe that stimulating the visual cortex layers would not cause visual artifacts
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16:12 < kanzure> jonathan__: hi
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18:13 < jonathan__> what's the stanford syn bio lab up to these days?
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18:39 < kanzure> jonathan__: no idea
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18:39 < kanzure> yashgaroth: hi
18:39 < kanzure> klafka: are you back in the bay area?
18:39 < yashgaroth> yo
18:40 < jonathan__> drew lab still working on biobricks as far as I know
18:40 < jonathan__> or at least, their version of biobricks which work, as opposed to the normal one
18:42 < kanzure> when Juul shows up in here you should ask him
18:42 < kanzure> since he works for drew
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18:48 < kanzure> jonathan__: dunno if you saw my last two messages, http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-06-26.log
18:54 < klafka> kanzure:  yeah
18:56 < jonathan__> oh, ok
19:01 < jonathan__> the carlsbad lab has some interesting things going on
19:01 < jonathan__> today there were 8 or 9 police squad cars with K9 unit outside
19:01 < jonathan__> Gotta wonder what those dogs were sniffing for
19:02 < yashgaroth> like, directly outside? they like to do training around there
19:02 < yashgaroth> or someone tipped them off to my massive grow op inside
19:02 < kanzure> i dunno why smugglers don't use drug dogs more often. you can have a dog run a test over your car. wont work for false-negatives, but at least you would be able to optimize the case of the police using drug dogs.
19:02 < gradstudentbot> That's the control group, right?
19:03 < kanzure> .botsnack +4
19:03 < yoleaux> :D
19:03 < jonathan__> because the dogs are corrupt and some studies show that the cops are directing the dogs to give false-positives?
19:03 < jonathan__> yes directly outside, surrounding the building
19:03 < brownies> .meow
19:03 < yoleaux> http://moar.edgecats.net/cats/tumblr_lz0dvhxgRf1rp5nqgo1_400.gif
19:04 < kanzure> no, as a drug smuggler you would want your car to pass or something, so you would run drug dogs against your car for a test, and my point about false-negatives was that the dogs might not be well-trained enough, which doesn't tell you whether or not your car passed.
19:05 < jonathan__> well drug smuggling ops just assume that a certain % will get captured anyway, the cost of doing business, so no need to bother with that.  plenty of profits from what gets thru.
19:05 < yashgaroth> did you like go by to feed your kombucha and saw the cops and just u-turned back onto faraday?
19:06 < jonathan__> my kombucha is probably dead, I cant believe no one can keep the lab open
19:07 < jonathan__> and this nonworking operation about the keys, wth
19:07 < jonathan__> I give it 2 more weeks then I'm abandoning the whole thing on account of the mismanagement
19:08 < jonathan__> it's been several months and they could have charged $50 a month for people by now, with temporary agreements
19:08 < kanzure> see, you have the opposite reaction of jojack
19:08 < kanzure> your reaction is to call it quits
19:08 < jonathan__> yet compaining there's no money in the till
19:08 < kanzure> jojack's reaction is to stick with it for 10 years while complaining
19:08 < jonathan__> my reaction is to go elsewhere
19:08 < brownies> is this that biospace?
19:08 < brownies> or whatever it's called
19:08 < kanzure> biotechnbeyond
19:08 < brownies> The Place That Had No Customers
19:08 < kanzure> i think membership fees is the wrong structure
19:09 < brownies> And Didn't Know How To Price Anything
19:09 < gradstudentbot> No, you can't borrow my pipette.
19:09 < jonathan__> sure, membership fees are the wrong structire long term
19:09 < kanzure> how about this: i pay for my own lab, and then i use it.
19:09 < kanzure> it seems really simple to me
19:09 < jonathan__> short term, they could be colleting cash, to use for actually buying a bench or two or whatever generic supplies
19:09 < jonathan__> the idea is to share equip and reagent cost. simple idea.
19:10 < jonathan__> I believe they could have had real experiments running by now
19:10 < jonathan__> sure, a bunch of random hacker experiments
19:10 < jonathan__> at least it would be used for something, then later with real contracts, kick the hackers out and start from the foundation
19:10 < jonathan__> it's called:  startup
19:11 < jonathan__> i've never been at a startup where people "leave early cause I've been here all day"
19:11 < jonathan__> what?
19:11 < jonathan__> dude, at a startup, YOU'RE THERE ALL DAY  lol
19:11 < kanzure> i am presently being paid by a startup and i leave exactly at 8 hours
19:11 < jonathan__> you're a contractor, you're supposed to work per bill
19:12 < jonathan__> those with equity are assumed to work like dogs, for the payoff
19:12 < klafka> i left early today at my startup
19:12 < kanzure> not in a healthy relationship
19:12 < kanzure> most people understand that the equity is worthless
19:12 < klafka> jonathan__:  have you worked at a startup? all the ones I've been to have been pretty reasonable by and large
19:12 < jonathan__> it depends
19:12 < klafka> except when shit breaks down
19:13 < jonathan__> I ahve worked at several startups
19:13 < klafka> it seems like the 'omg work 20hrs a day drink mt dew and eat ramen' startups are all like yc startups that have like 5 people
19:13 < jonathan__> if you dont meet the deadline, company is dead, period, there's no "well I'll do that tomorrow"
19:14 < kanzure> in general, startups can't work you raw anymore because they know you have options when it comes to your employment
19:14 < kanzure> also, the chances are good that you started your own company anyway, so it doesn't matter
19:15 < klafka> kanzure:  are you in the bay now
19:15 < jonathan__> there's a difference between normal employees and hungry employees.
19:15 < kanzure> anyway, the point is that you should leave if you are being manpussied into working 14 hour days
19:15 < kanzure> klafka: yeah, i'm in san jose for another week or something
19:15 < klafka> oh cool!
19:15 < klafka> are you going to get up to sf?
19:16 < kanzure> i think i already was and you missed it
19:16 < kanzure> maybe i will go again
19:18 < jonathan__> I'd guess that the startups you guys have seen are really diluted equity.  not like 2-5% share
19:19 < jonathan__> .01% of ownership is not real ownership
19:19 < jonathan__> also I guess acquisition market is mostly dead so probably doesnt matter
19:19 < klafka> oh
19:19 < klafka> yeah
19:19 < kanzure> sure 2% approaches where actual work is reasonable
19:20 < klafka> like all the startups i've ever been at have given me like a couple basis points
19:20 < kanzure> but you don't see that sort of equity offer often, even employee #1 is lucky to see 3%
19:20 < kanzure> (which is dumb)
19:23 < heath> what has happened to seqify
19:23 < heath> they were up just a few months ago
19:23 < klafka> jonathan__:  when were you seeing that out of curiosity?
19:23 < klafka> like in the last bubble?
19:25 < jonathan__> couple years ago when joining semi company just prior to ipo, 90% of engineer staff was expected to work >10 hrs a day, average was probably around 12-13 hrs per day, tho in this company, it was obviously H1B abuse of immigrants
19:26 < jonathan__> that means:  get to office at 9am, work until 1030pm,  1 hr lunch and 30 min dinner
19:27 < klafka> wow
19:27 < jonathan__> one engineer was known for working to 1am regularly
19:27 < klafka> i would be like f that
19:28 < klafka> the worst i had i was doing support engineering at my last place and it was super understaffedand we were expected to work on weekends some and i told them i wouldn't
19:28 < klafka> and i sometimes put in 10hr days
19:28 < kanzure> jonathan__: there's no reason to work those hours. at all. unless they are paying you 3-4x market rate, maybe..
19:29 < jonathan__> most startups have lower salaries, not higher
19:29 < kanzure> that doesn't mean you should accept lower salaries
19:30 < klafka> they may have lower salaries than like goog/fb/twitter
19:30 < klafka> but they have pretty decent salaries
19:30 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I'm a 4th year. No wait, I'm a 6th year.
19:30 < jonathan__> the basic rule is this:   let the people who get the job done, get the job done.  i.e. get out of their way
19:31 < jonathan__> google has lower salaries, or had, from what I understood
19:31 < klafka> well i guess i only have glassdoor and hn to go on
19:31 < klafka> but it seems like they get quite well compensated
19:31 < kanzure> google pays significantly more according to my pile of anecdotal data that i got a few weeks ago
19:31 < jonathan__> i dont think the reporting on those sites is accurate....
19:31 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5802295
19:31 < klafka> yah people were saying like 250k regularly for google
19:32 < kanzure> yeah, glassdoor reports lower salaries for google
19:32 < kanzure> but that could be anyone working for google-- college grads, etc.
19:32 < kanzure> *fresh college grads
19:32 < jonathan__> ok so right now I make 120k.  when I got that, the recruiter had a hard time finding anything above it.
19:32 < kanzure> when did you get it?
19:32 < jonathan__> I heard one company might consider 150k in LA, for some medical comapny, as the sole software engineer, i.e. owner of all linux stuff
19:32 < kanzure> dude btw you can make way the fuck more than that, just in terms of your output
19:33 < jonathan__> 2 years ago
19:33 < kanzure> 2 years the market was pretty hot.. well, for software.
19:33 < jonathan__> I hear qualcomm is offering more now
19:34 < kanzure> strangely, i heard the same thing. but i heard it in a small town in the middle of nowhere in texas, so i wrote it off as maybe false.
19:34 < jonathan__> tough to get people to state their numbers but one friend who was doing hiring said he was trying to compete with some companies (ie qualcomm) offering 140k-150k but that also included niche like security clearance maybe
19:34 < kanzure> someone was working at qualcomm for the first time, some college student. anyway..
19:34 < kanzure> qualcomm requires security clearances?
19:34 < kanzure> oh, nevermind. i see.
19:34 < jonathan__> I didnt get the details.  it's possible.
19:35 < kanzure> you had prior employment, right?
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19:35 < jonathan__> what I see in reality is this:  some guys get projects at high salaries but dont work full time for full year so in reality their annual rate is lower.
19:35 < kanzure> (i can't remember)
19:36 < jonathan__> I had one acquaintance claim he was making $220k
19:36 < jonathan__> drill deeper into the facts and turns out he only worked 4 mos for that year.  so ... totally false measure.
19:36 < bkero> Not completely unheard of
19:36 < kanzure> doing embedded?
19:36 < kanzure> what's wrong with making $220k in 4 months?
19:36 < kanzure> you have very high standards!
19:36 < bkero> Oh, I was assuming $220k in a year.
19:37 < jonathan__> nothing wrong with it, it's great, but when filling a survey or bragging, the comparative measure is vs. full year, not "big chunk in short time"
19:37 < jonathan__> So in reality he was making what. less than $120k per year.
19:37 < jonathan__> i.e. he couldnt fill subsequent contracts at $220k so was unemployed.
19:38 < jonathan__> nothing wrong with that.  just false statistics.
19:38 < kanzure> so, i'm not completely up on the hardware market, but in the software market if you have more than 2 years of experience it's easy to nail more than 120k.
19:39 < kanzure> the downside is that you would be working with things like ruby, perl, objective c, or even javascript
19:39 < jonathan__> cool, new announcement for carlsbad lab: "We are in the lab every day now and hope you can join us in shifts to assist in the final set up needed before the unveiling event July 12th.  "
19:39 < kanzure> do you have a key?
19:40 < jonathan__> no
19:40 < kanzure> worst space ever
19:40 < jonathan__> I have not taken the extra effort to figure out how to get one
19:40 < jonathan__> i.e., if it were a real space I wouldn't have to reverse engineer access.
19:41 < kanzure> just upload an image of a key here http://shloosl.com/
19:41 < kanzure> (yes i'm lame and don't pick all my locks..)
19:41 < jonathan__> really
19:41 < jonathan__> well it's not a house key - it's a business door key
19:41 < kanzure> easier than writing a script to copy a key yourself
19:41 < jonathan__> the service may or may not handle that
19:41 < kanzure> i mean, the imaging stuff
19:41 < kanzure> sure
19:42 < jonathan__> "why not just 3D print keys"
19:42 < kanzure> i have zero experience with them. just fyi.
19:42 < jonathan__> oh I know, cause those repraps dont really work for sh*
19:42 < yashgaroth> why not just 3d-print an entire lab
19:42 < kanzure> those repraps work for +- 1 cm tolerance i think
19:42 < jonathan__> i'll 3d print YOUR MOM
19:43 < jonathan__> looks like I'll have to get a high flyin job in palo alto and make the big buckz!
19:44 < yashgaroth> "oh man we can't do meetings on the weekends, people have stuff going on...let's meet at 1 pm on a fucking weekday I'm sure no one's busy then"
19:44 < jonathan__> yes you nailed it
19:44 < jonathan__> never happen at a startup
19:45 < jonathan__> the message would be:  "we are going to cram on saturday and expect you to be here"
19:45 < yashgaroth> well usually at a startup people don't have other full-time jobs
19:45 < jonathan__> sure they do!
19:45 < jonathan__> at least before the co. is formed
19:45 < jonathan__> that's the "incubate" part!
19:45 < yashgaroth> startups also have equity and shit
19:46 < kanzure> nah these days they want you on-site at the incubator. you know, for "physical presence" and "culture".
19:46 < jonathan__> so could the lab.  it could easily draft a fake type of "equity" in terms of future lab hours
19:46 < jonathan__> or lab space
19:46 < jonathan__> and then completely steal it back later, as per normal business ethics
19:46 < kanzure> you mean "dilute"
19:47 < jonathan__> yes in a word
19:47 < kanzure> i think even glowing plant (for all of its problems) proves that by-project is better
19:47 < jonathan__> well anyway there's plenty of ways to get around it.  yet current staff complains about no chump change money or this or that.
19:47 < yashgaroth> like I get that they want a "no take backsies" clause on donated equipment b/c of babak, but if it all goes to shit I want my stuff back
19:48 < jonathan__> that's the real topic of the day
19:48 < jonathan__> what's the absolute easiest bio project with most glam appeal to rake in fake money on indie funding sites
19:48 < kanzure> different people have different tolerances of "going to shit", so that's problematic
19:48 < kanzure> jonathan__: they dumped in $10k into that project on kickstarter the minute the project was posted. it was rigged.
19:48 < yashgaroth> the money's real, the project can be as fake as you like...fuck it, glowing cats
19:49 < kanzure> "look at our 'momentum'! $10k in 30 seconds, wow." etc
19:49 < yashgaroth> exponential!
19:49 < jonathan__> nah the project should be acheivable
19:49 < jonathan__> so the scam can continue next time
19:50 < jonathan__> why poison the well?
19:50 < yashgaroth> anything achievable has been done, pretty much
19:50 < kanzure> why drink from the well? what if you just pay for your own projects.
19:50 < jonathan__> pff, that's what they said about smart phones before iphone came out
19:50 < jonathan__> hey $300k of free money is nothing to sneeze at
19:50 < yashgaroth> iphone didn't do anything new except be expensive and shiny, but yes you're right
19:51 < kanzure> it did html apps at first
19:51 < kanzure> which was, in fact, new
19:51 < jonathan__> um without going into details, the iphone completely changed the market
19:51 < yashgaroth> gah fine whatever
19:51 < jonathan__> not to mention unix in your pocket.  dude.
19:51 < jonathan__> "HEY BABY, check out this unix... in my pocket.."
19:51 < jonathan__> "wow, it's so.... SMALL"
19:52 < yashgaroth> that's just the kernel, girl
19:52 < jonathan__> HAHA
19:52 < jonathan__> "wait till you see my apps"
19:53 < jonathan__> microsoft always pulls that stuff.  "we had a tablet first".   yea but no one bought it cause it was uber lame.
19:53 < jonathan__> anyways
19:53 < gradstudentbot> I am busy researching.
19:53 < yashgaroth> we could do some hip new version of something, but it'd need to be 20 years old because patents
19:53 < jonathan__> meanwhile, gradstudentbot has to go into the lab every 6 hrs to feed her adherent cells.
19:54 < gradstudentbot> Someone's sitting at my bench space.
19:54 < jonathan__> ellington lab had some very simple novel stuff going on with rna
19:55 < jonathan__> totally patentable, not 20 yrs old, and not so difficult technically speaking
19:55 < kanzure> how about a typical dna synthesis machine?
19:55 < yashgaroth> is it marketable to kickstarter suckers?
19:56 < kanzure> not a microfluidic dna synthesis device
19:56 < kanzure> just something that can be developed for 5-25k in parts
19:56 < kanzure> i bet it would end up being less than 5k, of course
19:56 < yashgaroth> surely you remember my warnings about LE and dna synthesis
19:56 < kanzure> which LE
19:57 < yashgaroth> law enforcement, sorry
19:57 < jonathan__> nothing microfluidic will get any nods from those who know
19:57 < kanzure> i don't care about microfluidic (for the purposes of this conversation)
19:57 < jonathan__> apparently no one is very interested in synthesis
19:57 < kanzure> cambrian genomics seems interested
19:58 < kanzure> it could be some plated/wells/arrays, or even just something more directly copied from an existing design
19:58 < kanzure> e.g. reverse engineer something that works (buy some crap from ebay)
19:58 < jonathan__> I bet cloning/growing extinct odd mammals would get great funding
19:58 < kanzure> most of the dna synthesizers on the market are actually from the 80s and 90s because nobody makes them anymore, not really.
19:58 < kanzure> and the companies sued each other and cannibalized each other through mergers
19:58 < yashgaroth> the oligo ladder method might work and doesn't need microfluidics, but that's a lot of r&d
19:59 < kanzure> i'm not talking about anything that requires r&d
19:59 < kanzure> well, maybe development i guess
19:59 < kanzure> i imagine it would take less than 5 bugfixing prototypes to make something that works
19:59 < yashgaroth> not even prototypes, just different reaction conditions...oh and the 16,000 oligos you'd have to order
20:00 < kanzure> well, it wouldn't be from a library
20:00 < kanzure> modern dna synthesis machines don't necessarily work from a library
20:00 < kanzure> i'm just talking the bare minimal stupid design of a dna synthesis machine
20:00 < yashgaroth> that'd be some dude with a bunch of bottles
20:00 < kanzure> squirting phospholiquids into tubes and such
20:01 < kanzure> it's not that many bottles. have you seen these machines?
20:01 < kanzure> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pharmacia-Biotech-OligoProcess-System-DNA-Synthesizer-LINEAR-FLOW-THROUGH-/160922045880?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2577b38db8
20:01 < yashgaroth> 4 bases, wash, deprotect...yeah ok
20:01 < jonathan__> I forgot to add to the salary discussion, an old coworker hinted I could get 150k if he hired me for firmware development.
20:01 < kanzure> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3806-Millipore-Biosearch-8700-DNA-Synthesizer-/280726511487?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415c9a9f7f
20:02 < jonathan__> bryan what's preventing others from building the same machine?
20:02 < kanzure> nothing! why would i want to prevent that?
20:02 < jonathan__> that means:  why isnt anyone else pursuing the idea
20:03 < kanzure> it's not an investment, it's a functional tool that i need
20:03 < kanzure> because nobody else has crazy projects like i do?
20:03 < jonathan__> doubtful
20:03 < kanzure> they are all institutionalized
20:03 < jonathan__> smart people all see the same problems
20:03 < kanzure> that doesn't mean they are in a position to act
20:03 < kanzure> kids, family, mortgage, being broke, who knows
20:04 < jonathan__> what are the technology or business barriers
20:04 < kanzure> dunno about making it into a business- sounds nice, but not a top priority until the device is mostly working
20:04 < jonathan__> that means:  for other people, what is preventing them from making this business
20:04 < kanzure> technology barriers: there's a lot of wash steps and chemical/plasitc compatibilities that need to be checked
20:04 < kanzure> *plastic
20:05 < kanzure> it's not a business (not yet)
20:05 < kanzure> it was just a project, right?
20:05 < jonathan__> maybe because there is no demand for such a device, ie low volume
20:05 < kanzure> why would i want demand? if it's my own personal tool, i can do whatever i want for myself.
20:05 < jonathan__> high dev cost, only a handful of customers in the world
20:05 < kanzure> i don't think the cost is that high
20:06 < jonathan__> because the topic was projects for kickstarter lol...   that means priority is on what other people want
20:06 < kanzure> 1000 hours of engineering time can make a pretty good start
20:06 < kanzure> oh, for a kickstarter project. why? am i lacking money?
20:07 < kanzure> but yeah, i think people would buy a cheap dna synthesis machine. around the $500-$2k range.
20:07 < jonathan__> like everyone is buying a 3d printer today too (sarcasm)
20:07 < kanzure> how do you explain makerbot's sales figures?
20:08 < kanzure> 20k printers sold in 2012.. not too bad.
20:08 < jonathan__> I guess it's relative
20:09 < kanzure> yeah nobody is claiming a 3d printer in every pocket
20:09 < kanzure> unlike qualcomm's unfathomable goals
20:09 < yashgaroth> I've seen people claim that...well, every house anyway
20:09 < kanzure> those people are wrong :)
20:09 < yashgaroth> well, yes
20:10 < kanzure> jonathan__: so, besides my own personal benefit, i think a working, cheap dna synthesis machine would also be useful for others in the diybio scene. such as yashgaroth, ParahSai1in, cathal, etc.
20:12 < kanzure> jonathan__: i also think that what's preventing others is possibly a focus on commercial machine design, which is problematic because you can't as easily get developers to sign on unless you have millions
20:12 < jonathan__> "LIfe Technologies is seeking a Software Solutions Architect. The selected candidate will be tasked with overall software and systems architecture and design for strategic projects and initiatives related to product development and key business processes.   The successful candidate will lead technical teams, create design deliverables, participate in development, and partner with project management to ensure effective implement
20:12 < jonathan__> and adoption.   Key technologies include cutting-edge cloud computing services, scientific instrument embedded systems, web software development, middleware architectures, purpose-build databases and data stores, mobile technologies, and custom analytics. "
20:12 < kanzure> s/commercial/proprietary
20:12 < kanzure> (commercial is compatible with open source, obv. i meant proprietary..)
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20:13 < jonathan__> yes, biz model sometimes kills innovation
20:13 < klafka> heh life technologies isn't that the people who own ABI ?
20:13 < kanzure> hah that job quote is funny, i think i know the guy who is currently in that role at life technologies
20:13 < yashgaroth> they own a lot of stuff
20:13 < klafka> i really hate how to do anything cool in comp bio / bioinformatics you have to have a phd :(
20:13 < kanzure> why do you need a phd?
20:13 < kanzure> just do those things man
20:13 < klafka>  i mean companies want them
20:13 < klafka> to higher you
20:13 < kanzure> hire
20:14 < klafka> sorry
20:14 < klafka> yes hire
20:14 < klafka> heh
20:14 < jonathan__> Supposedly my resume got to the pres at life tech.  guess they didn't like it that day lol
20:14 < klafka> past few hours have been a blur of organization for dancesafe
20:14 < jonathan__> correction, vp engineering, must have been
20:15 < jonathan__> "Strong architectural and software design experience is a must. Strong knowledge of OOD and Java is a must. Knowledge of Eclipse is a must. Experience in designing and implementation of mobile software and embedded systems is a must. Experience with JEE, C/C++, Oracle, MySQL and other databases is a strong plus. "
20:15 < kanzure> i've seen other open source projects go up on kickstarter. they don't all have to be pre-startup projects.
20:15 < jonathan__> probably because I dont to that stuff
20:15 < kanzure> gosh, why would you want to work somewhere that wants eclipse and oracle
20:15 < jonathan__> interview answer:  "yeah I'd just put it in the cloud"
20:16 < jonathan__> "Experience with Hibernate, Spring, Service Oriented Architecture, scalable SOAP web services, security architecture. A working experience or knowledge of OSGI and Modularity is a strong plus.
20:16 < jonathan__> Experience with entity relationship data modeling as well as designing, optimization and troubleshooting databases is a strong plus. "
20:16 < kanzure> spring is at the heart of java territory (for web things, at least)
20:16 < jonathan__> interview answer:  "Yeah I'd just use SOAP for that."
20:16 < jonathan__> "I'd use SOAP and put it in the cloud."
20:16 < kanzure> you can also get bonus points for saying "RPC" in the same sentence as "SOAP".
20:17 < jonathan__> "I'd make a soapy cloud.  Then turn on my LAMP."
20:17 < klafka> LOL
20:17 < kanzure> anyway, it sounds like they don't know what they want, or they are using really enterprisey stuff for no good reason
20:17 < kanzure> the reality is that their machines are actually python+django
20:17 < kanzure> which is hilarious
20:17 < jonathan__> "Must be proficient in multi-threading, client-server communications, data serialization, compression and encryption, GUI development. Experience with multi-core, signal processing, embedded and real-time software is a strong plus. "
20:18 < jonathan__> Interview non-answer:  "Oh I am very familiar with cereals, I had some this morning before the interview."
20:18 < kanzure> GUI development too? hah
20:18 < jonathan__> basically no guy will satisfy that list of stuff...
20:18 < jonathan__> "Experience with cloud-based IaaS services and traditional infrastructure technologies including LAN/WAN, SAN/NAS, and server hardware technologies. "
20:18 < jonathan__> see, cloud, I told ya
20:19 < jonathan__> "Let's call it SaaS but it's a lab so wait, that makes it LaaS !!"
20:19 < jonathan__> ?
20:19 < kanzure> well, i can nail all of those requirements except oracle at the moment. also my signal processing is weak.
20:19 < jonathan__> real time embedded?  Umm
20:19 < kanzure> also i wouldn't want to actually use eclipse
20:19 < kanzure> yes, i have written real-time things. -_-
20:19 < jonathan__> when was the last time you wrote an rtos?
20:20 < kanzure> you are not the only person capable of reading whitesheets yo
20:20 < jonathan__> "Experience with a formal software development methodology such as the Rational Unified Process or Agile is required. "
20:20 < gradstudentbot> I could never be a PI.
20:20 < klafka> a gave that gave a talk at pydata on disco was from life
20:20 < jonathan__> "yes we use Agile only here.  we don't even have schedules."
20:20 < klafka> haha
20:21 < klafka> we're so agile we make tests as we think of them
20:21 < kanzure> "why test today what can fail tomorrow?"
20:21 < kanzure> maybe i have that backwards
20:22 < jonathan__> "I'd make a SOAP multi-threaded signal processing real time event driven statistical data OSGI framework which operates via cloud based Oracle through NAS"
20:22 < jonathan__> ok, hired!
20:22 < kanzure> you forgot CUDA things
20:22 < kanzure> and to turn it into an eclipse plugin
20:22 < jonathan__> why eclipse is even here I dont know
20:22 < klafka> ugh
20:22 < klafka> so much java
20:23 < jonathan__> that's like saying "Must be able to use Notepad"
20:23 < kanzure> no
20:23 < kanzure> nobody in their right mind would choose eclipse these days
20:23 < klafka> it's the programmers equivalent of 'must be profficient in ms office'
20:23 < klafka> google is even dropping eclipse
20:23 < jonathan__> Umm
20:23 < kanzure> intellij is supposed to be ok, but really you should just be using whatever text editor you prefer in the first place (emacs, vim, sublime, etc.)
20:23 < jonathan__> infineon's latest SDK uses eclipse of course, for code generation
20:23 < jonathan__> and so does TI's
20:23 < kanzure> yes, because they are bad people
20:24 < jonathan__> uhh
20:24 < jonathan__> on the flip side, microchip uses netbeans!
20:24 < jonathan__> go microchip!
20:24 < klafka> man i may have to write some java soon
20:24 < klafka> it's been soo long
20:24 < jonathan__> I hate java
20:24 < klafka> as do I
20:25 < jonathan__> I wrote some java stuff and every five minutes was thinking: "this is lame, this is backwards"
20:25 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, but his project was so easy.
20:25 < jonathan__> then again I dont like GUI programming anyway
20:26 < jonathan__> btw what's the best python GUI?
20:26 < jonathan__> qt?
20:26 < klafka> probably pyqt
20:26 < klafka> i haven't really done gui programming much since i'm a data person <_<
20:27 < jonathan__> how about we all conspire to work at life technologies then take over their R&D?
20:27 < jonathan__> then, build a dna synthesizer
20:27 < klafka> for the masses
20:27 < jonathan__> oh no, not for the masses.  for bryan's use only.
20:27 < jonathan__> and oh yea, it makes toast.
20:28 < klafka> god i keep trying to run this java LDA implementation and it keeps running out of JVM memory
20:28 < klafka> fucking java jvm
20:28 < klafka> i don't want to spin up a new instance right now
20:30 < jonathan__> "Software Developers: Join the Life Technologies Cloud Computing Team"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGUPG80CExo
20:36 < jonathan__> well at least they know how to spend six figures on a marketing video..
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20:38 < yashgaroth> their products are about as good as any other big supplier's, so the competition lies in who spends the most on ads
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20:39 < jonathan__> my next job will be in hr.  cuter girls there.
20:39 < jonathan__> who wants to hang around engineers all day.
20:39 < yashgaroth> if you're into the 40+ I guess
20:40 < jonathan__> oh. way to kill my dreams, mr. fancy pants
20:40 < kanzure> fyi brownies is mr fancypants in here
20:40 < kanzure> you'll have to call yashgaroth something else
20:41 < jonathan__> next you're gonna tell me I can't sleep my way to the top.
20:42 < yashgaroth> only one way to find out
20:43 < kanzure> why would you want to work for life technologies, making a dna synthesizer, i mean? i don't think they even do synthesis.
20:43 < kanzure> and even if they did, you would do all the work for like zero upside.
20:47 < jonathan__> brewing kombucha is a far superior business.
20:47 < jonathan__> ever meet a microbrewer who was disliked by cute girls?
20:48 < gradstudentbot> Nobody has tried this before.
20:48 < jonathan__> oh, many men have, ms. gradstudentbot
20:49 < kanzure> you broke it
20:50 < jonathan__> it?
20:50 < kanzure> gradstudentbot is a bot
20:50 < gradstudentbot> God, why won't they just kick me out.
20:51 < jonathan__> it's crass to refer to the female students as bots, mr. roll to save insanity
20:53 < kanzure> gradstudentbot:
20:53 < gradstudentbot> I am writing the abstract.
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20:54 < abetusk> is gradstudentbot really a bot?
20:54 < gradstudentbot> We were out of the right dye, so I just used an equivalent.
20:55 < abetusk> gradstudentbot, what is your thesis?
20:55 < gradstudentbot> The protocol is wrong.
20:55 < kanzure> a brilliant thesis
20:55 < kanzure> yes, gradstudentbot is an irc bot
20:55 < gradstudentbot> I got in around 11.
20:55 < jonathan__> dude grad students don't like being called bots
20:55 < abetusk> gradstudentbot, how's the research coming?
20:55 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I'm a 4th year. No wait, I'm a 6th year.
20:55 < jonathan__> it's really rude
20:55 < abetusk> hilarious
20:55 < jonathan__> even though it's true
20:55 < abetusk> you have a bunch of canned answers?
20:55 < kanzure> it's based on this:
20:56 < kanzure> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovEghdXC4tE
20:56 < yoleaux> Shit Graduate Students Say - YouTube
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20:57 < klafka> grad students dont' get a choice in what they're called!
20:58 < abetusk> it just picks one of the pre-canned lines when it's name is mentioned?  It doesn't try and relate to the conversation at all?
20:58 < kanzure> it's completely random.
20:58 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: right?
20:58 < gradstudentbot> I'm glad you brought that up, I'm going to do that right now.
20:58 < abetusk> gradstudentbot, you should totally use an arduino!
20:58 < gradstudentbot> I got in around 11.
20:59 < abetusk> and sometimes it just randomely spits out a line?
20:59 < kanzure> gradstudentbot is constantly working, yeah
20:59 < gradstudentbot> I'm glad you brought that up, I'm going to do that right now.
21:00 < kanzure> gradstudentbot: you can't say the same line that soon!
21:00 < gradstudentbot> The grant got rejected.
21:00 < jonathan__> you should have seen the emails going back & forth about carlsbad lab possible demos
21:01 < jonathan__> freaking crazy ideas that would never get done or even half put together
21:01 < jonathan__> completely reminded me of being in a grad student lab.
21:01 < yashgaroth> we're still going ahead with differentiating beating heart cells right?
21:01 < jonathan__> "oh yea, so now I remember why I didnt go to grad school"
21:01 < jonathan__> yeah, totally
21:02 < jonathan__> I'm so working on that already with ms. gradstudentbot.
21:02 < gradstudentbot> I think the centrifuge is broken.
21:02 < yashgaroth> oh god what if the digital chart recorder is the only demo
21:02 < jonathan__> because anyway even though it fails, gradstudentbot is kind of cute
21:02 < gradstudentbot> No, you can't borrow my pipette.
21:02 < jonathan__> what if the kombucha is the only friggin demo, dude.   then I hope gradstudentbot wears the bikini I insisted on
21:02 < gradstudentbot> I hope they kick me out.
21:03 < yashgaroth> let's just get jojack to wear a miniskirt, that'll generate all the word-of-mouth we need
21:05 < jonathan__> what kind of statement would it be, if it didn't?
21:05 < jonathan__> "yeah you remember that lab?  when gradstudentbot wore a bikini and jojack wore a kilt?  and they still didn't get any kickstarter funds?"
21:05 < gradstudentbot> I am writing the abstract.
21:06 < yashgaroth> where the shit is the indiegogo or whatever? are they waiting to film a crowd of confused tipsy people from the opening?
21:06 < jonathan__> damn I tell ya, they could have turned the lab into crossfit training center for 4 mos and collected $100/mo from 30-40 people
21:06 < yashgaroth> 'do one rep of lifting this tissue culture hood into place'
21:07 < jonathan__> obviously the demo needs laserz
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21:08 < jonathan__> I was going to put my circuitboard into a clear acrylic box for the demo, now I think I will put it in a black plastic box, and go into crazy detail about how complex it was to do
21:08 < yashgaroth> let's pour a bunch of chemlights into a spinner flask and claim it's luminescent e.coli
21:08 < jonathan__> yes!
21:09 < jonathan__> it has to be yogurt because no one knows what e.coli is.
21:09 < jonathan__> but they know pro-biotic yogurt is somehow good.
21:09 < yashgaroth> then they'll want to eat it and I doubt that'll end well
21:09 < jonathan__> I brought in 14 bottles of wine so I doubt anyone will care about much
21:10 < yashgaroth> people know what yeast is? fuck it let's do luminscent kombucha
21:10 < yashgaroth> dude there's gonna be like 100 people there, there were like 50 at the first opening when all we had were the building keys
21:10 < jonathan__> "this is my scoby I mean the mother I mean  aww hell it's just magic"
21:11 < jonathan__> maybe I should go over to life tech and hand out fliers to the marketing girls.  "wine tasting at bio incubator"
21:12 < jonathan__> I guess the journal club is dead too unless someone does cpr
21:13 < yashgaroth> I ain't going all the fuck way up there again to watch richard explain j craig to non-bio people
21:14 < jonathan__> unless they're hot?
21:14 < yashgaroth> well obviously
21:14 < jonathan__> "Ancient horse bone yields oldest DNA sequence"
21:15 < jonathan__> paperbot http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12275.html
21:15 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20role%20of%20behaviour%20in%20adaptive%20morphological%20evolution%20of%20African%20proboscideans.pdf
21:18 < jonathan__> keep forgetting to call the science cheerleaders
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21:26 < jonathan__> "In 2012, antibiotic development continues to stagnate. Two systemic antibacterial agents have been approved for use in humans by the U.S. FDA from 2008 through the current year. Compare that to sixteen that were approved from 1983-1987. In particular, we have had no new classes of antibiotics to treat Gram-negative bacilli (GNB) for more than 40 years ....  For example, the scientific and regulatory challenges markedly increas
21:26 < jonathan__> cost and timeline of development, which greatly exacerbates the economic disadvantages of antibiotics. Conversely, if antibiotics were billion-dollar-per-year blockbuster drugs, companies would be willing to tolerate high barriers scientifically and from a regulatory perspective. Since antibiotics tend to sell much less than a billion dollars per year, there is instead low tolerance for scientific and regulatory barriers."
21:35 < jonathan__> that's the only problem worth working on.
21:36 < jonathan__> high need, not profitable, no business case, regulatory burden.  no company will really go near it.
21:40 < heath> http://sbirsource.com/sbir/firms/17559-clark-and-parsia-llc
21:41 < yashgaroth> give it a few years for people to realize that totally drug resistant bugs will kill tens of millions
21:41 < heath> Clark and Parsia was awarded $100K for phase 1 and.. $380K or $89K for phase2 of the project?
21:45 < jonathan__> hopefully I will be anchored away from land when the pandemic hits.
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21:46 < jonathan__> here's a good use of the dna synthesizer for antibiotics.  doi:10.1111/j.1462-2920.2004.00664.x
21:51 < jonathan__> paperbot http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00253-007-0945-5
21:51 < paperbot> error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Metagenomics%2C%20biotechnology%20with%20non-culturable%20microbes.pdf
21:53 < yashgaroth> ehh they're not really synthesizing anything
21:53 < kanzure> `.
21:53 < yashgaroth> just going 'oh we found a bunch of new ways that bacteria are resistant to antibiotics'
21:55 < jonathan__> if you had a synthesizer, you could make libraries of whatever you want.  oh yay.  unless there's an interesting use for such libraries.
21:57 < jonathan__> are you saying it won't be a problem once biopharma focuses attention on it?
21:57 < jonathan__> meaning, they'll suddenly find new antibiotics?
21:58 < yashgaroth> with enough money, sure
21:59 < jonathan__> I thought the theme was:  these bugs are very interesting but difficult to culture.  i.e. easier to synthesize them directly than multiply them.
21:59 < kanzure> well, sometimes easier means.. easier than convincing someone to ship you a sample.
21:59 < yashgaroth> they're just pulling out chunks of genome from soil bacteria and shoving them into e.coli, seeing which recipient e.coli live, and then sequencing the chunks they have
22:00 < jonathan__> "with enough money, sure" -> I think this is overly optimistic.  considering biopharma cant do much with the tons of money thrown at other problems they're interested in.
22:00 < yashgaroth> it's a somewhat different landscape, but fair point
22:01 < jonathan__> obviously what we need, are microfluidics.  with laserz.
22:02 < yashgaroth> can never have enough
22:03 < jonathan__> how much $ has bill gates shoved into malaria research by this point...  they cant even get mosquitos to stop reproducing.
22:03 < jonathan__> by the way does anyone else sense the irony in bill Mr. Blue Screen of Death gates working on a cure for malaria?
22:04 < yashgaroth> not directly
22:05 < yashgaroth> also it'd be more efficient and effective to spend money forcing people not to misuse antibiotics
22:07 < jonathan__> that won't happen.  prohibition didn't work either.
22:08 < yashgaroth> yeah but it's easier to just blame humans
22:09 < yashgaroth> also it's like anti-prohibition because most misuse of antibiotics is under-use
22:09 < jonathan__> I blame the biologists for not wanting to innovate anything they do.  pbbbt
22:09 < yashgaroth> also true
22:09 < kanzure> i think the mosquito lasers were working last time i checked
22:09 < jonathan__> do they have microfluidic channels?
22:10 < kanzure> of course, we might end up with laser-resistant mosquitos
22:11 < yashgaroth> worth it
22:11 < jonathan__> "Although early prototypes of the mosquito laser worked, they were too expensive for use in developing countries. In the latest version, the mosquito laser is assembled from commonly availably technology. In fact, Myhrvold and his team found all the components on Ebay, which included parts from printers and projectors, and the zoom lenses from digital cameras. He estimates that the new version could cost as little as $50 to
22:11 < jonathan__> manufacture, depending on volume.
22:11 < jonathan__> Read more at: http://phys.org/news185463943.html#jCp"
22:12 < jonathan__> if it only costs $50, then where's the schematics?
22:12 < kanzure> eww "Read more" javascript injection
22:13 < jonathan__> yea sorry
22:13 < kanzure> probably because they plan to "commercialize" it.
22:13 < jonathan__> iphone has enough cpu to drive it.
22:13 < brownies> why commercialize a device for poor people?
22:13 < jonathan__> iphone mosquito laser accessory!
22:13 < kanzure> "it *could* cost as little as $50, but why would we let it?"
22:13 < brownies> that seems like a bad market to cater to.
22:14 < brownies> "it costs only $50. too bad no one in our target market has seen a dollar bill."
22:15 < jonathan__> well if it is that fast, there only needs to be one per family quad
22:15 < jonathan__> have the whole town chip in, sell their souls to buy just one
22:16 < jonathan__> "At a brainstorming session in 2007, to think of solutions for malaria, Dr. Wood, one of the architects of the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), also known as “Star Wars,” suggested designing a system to kill mosquitoes with lasers. Soon after, the idea was followed up by many scientists at Intellectual Ventures and mosquitoes were being shot down within a year.[4]"
22:16 < jonathan__> number of subscribers to diybio list:  12,000
22:17 < kanzure> hah, intellectual ventures. great.. :(
22:17 < jonathan__> number of actual smart engineers required to design and produce a laser:  12
22:17 < kanzure> i doubt that it takes 12 engineers to add a laser to a product.
22:17 < jonathan__> [*] within one year
22:17 < brownies> it takes one engineer, a bottle of scotch, and some duct tape.
22:18 < jonathan__> obviously, it has to aim somehow...
22:18 < jonathan__> ok it really only took 3 engineers, the rest were used as human targets for the test mosquitos
22:19 < jonathan__> curiously, they would return home from work each day with tiny burn marks all over their skin
22:20 < yashgaroth> also seems like having to be 100 ft from a laser machine would make it hard to subsistence farm
22:20 < jonathan__> "Jordin Kare has published instructions on how to build a DIY photonic fence.[14]"
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22:21 < delinquentme> nmz787_, can a spec be used to checkout quality of a drug?
22:21 < klafka> not of illicit ones - from a legal perspective
22:23 < brownies> hm, this doesn't seem very DIY-friendly http://www.google.com/patents/US20100186284
22:24 < brownies> i guess technically publishing the instructions as a patent does still count as "publishing the instructions" but... eh.
22:24 < jonathan__> typically the bill gates foundation enforces price controls, I think
22:24 < yashgaroth> fig.4: mosquito butt
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22:24 < jonathan__> " All three stages of the photonic fence can be made from this consumer technology. When the device is looking for mosquitoes that pass its field of vision, it uses basic infra-red LEDs, and light sensors from modern digital cameras.[5] To target and kill the mosquitoes it uses similar laser technology as what is in optical devices such as DVD, or Blu-ray disc drives.[11]"
22:25 < jonathan__> totally iphone worthy
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22:25 < delinquentme> klafka, I mean lets say you've got some adderall from a not super reputable source and some from a reputable one
22:26 < delinquentme> you'd like to check to see how close the chemical compositions are
22:26 < delinquentme> you can dissolve both in solution and spectrometer the crap outa those samples
22:26 < delinquentme> and get their comparative components
22:26 < delinquentme> ja?
22:26 < jonathan__> "If you still haven’t flipped through the latest issue of Make Magazine, well here it is. Not the whole thing, just 3ric Johanson’s critically (do I qualify as a critic?) acclaimed article on the Photonic Fence. Creating a machine that shoots mosquitoes out of the sky with lasers has been no small task. 3ric gives the low down on everything from the preliminary eye-rolling brainstorms, to the three challenges in mosquito
22:26 < jonathan__> assassination, as well as explanations of the hardware, software and methods he is currently using.  "    http://intellectualventureslab.com/?p=1574
22:26 < brownies> how is it possibly that complicated?
22:27 < jonathan__> slap "raspberry pi" on the front of that and kickstarter would hit 10 k easy!
22:27 < kanzure> paralella pi
22:27 < kanzure> with ouya
22:27 < kanzure> for your iphone
22:28 < jonathan__> mosquito pi - with mesh networking
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22:31 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12323.html
22:31 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Recalibrating%20Equus%20evolution%20using%20the%20genome%20sequence%20of%20an%20early%20Middle%20Pleistocene%20horse.pdf
22:31 < kanzure> oh right
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22:35 < jonathan__> mosquito death requires 50 - 100 millijoules
22:35 < jonathan__> what physics gradstudentbot wants to convert that to blue ray laser wattage
22:35 < gradstudentbot> Nobody has tried this before.
22:39 < jonathan__> ok the mosquito pi must use opencv
22:40 < jonathan__> according to them.
22:43 < jonathan__> ""I had a look at LA Biohacker's website, it seems that you have a meet up event for every Sunday. At the moment Labster is offering a free version for everyone, that means all your members at LA Biohacker and others can actually use all of Labster cases for free! For example, you can incorporate Labster into your Sunday meet up. ""
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22:50 < kanzure> jonathan__: yeah, they have been sppending that labster spam everywhere
22:50 < kanzure> jonathan__: therefore i think they are spammers
22:50 < jonathan__> it doesnt look that interesting anyway
22:50 < jonathan__> oh yay, play a videogame virtual reality lab thing as educational experience
22:51 < kanzure> now i can experience the agony of lab work anytime i want!
22:53 < jonathan__> "SGVI is seeking a post-doctoral level candidate who is highly skilled in microbiology and molecular biology and preferably, has experience working with bacteriophage, for the role of Scientist in the SGVI phage R&D team.  "
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 27 00:00:08 2013