--- Log opened Sun Jun 30 00:00:01 2013
--- Day changed Sun Jun 30 2013
00:00 < alusion> kids born after the release of n64 can drive now dude.
00:00 < ziwbra> what the heck
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00:00 < alusion> makes you feel old huh?
00:00 < ziwbra> maybe
00:01 < alusion> Lipstick research gets 10,000x more annually than friendly AI research.
00:02 < crw> oh holy hell
00:02 < crw> i still have his "creating internet intelligence" on my amazon wishlist
00:03 < crw> Added June 23, 2002
00:03 < crw> i'll get around to it someday, i swear
00:03 < crw> it's up to $182.62
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00:05 < alusion> O.o
00:06 < crw> yeeeeah
00:47 < ziwbra> alusion
00:47 < ziwbra> do you think you could find out which high school goertzel goes to?
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00:56 <@fenn> why do people think ben goertzel has anything useful to say at all?
00:57 <@fenn> i just don't get it. he's been rambling on for years and has a glorified chatbot to show for his efforts
00:57 < ziwbra> goertzel appears to be working in the orthodox view of extending the back sides of AI textbooks
00:57 < ziwbra> I mean
00:57 < ziwbra> if you get an AI textbook, the back chapters deal with probabilistic logic
00:58 <@fenn> and?
00:58 < ziwbra> and so in some sense, he is just extending AI research as it is
01:00 <@fenn> well it looks like a lot of finely crafted bullshit to me
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02:42 < ziwbra> fenn
02:42 < ziwbra> [04:00] <@fenn> well it looks like a lot of finely crafted bullshit to me
02:42 < ziwbra> Read up on the parts of Ai about probabilistic logic
02:42 < ziwbra> then Goertzel won't look so bad afterwards
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06:22 < jonathan__> "Brainstorming New Ways To Test If Cosmos Is One Big Computer Simulation"    "In a Philosophical Quarterly paper authored by Nick Bostrom, a philosophy professor at Oxford University in the U.K., Bostrom posits that what we observe as our universe may in fact be a very advanced simulation designed by our distant progeny."
06:23 < jonathan__> "Bostrom says if such simulations are being run, their creators are probably some form of super-intelligent post human civilization. He says the technology needed to create such simulations is so advanced that a civilization capable of generating such numerical models would presumably have already used their advanced technological prowess to also enhance their own intelligence."
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07:39 <@archels> jonathan__: someone should remind Bostrom of Ockham's razor
07:40 < jonathan__> lol  no man, we are *in* the matrix
07:40 < jonathan__> it's all around us, man
07:40 <@archels> But why would a superintelligence put so much time and effort into simulating such measly lifeforms as ourselves?
07:43 < jonathan__> they are looking for the answer to 6 x 7 of course
07:43 < EnLilaSko> Why do people play The Sims?
07:43 < jonathan__> as a bonus, they get to study me, as I am infinitely interesting
07:44 < jonathan__> dude man, maybe he will discover.... "God" !
07:45 < jonathan__> 'and on the seventh day, God pressed pause on his playstation 3.'
07:48 <@archels> jonathan__: Does Bostrom talk about whether the underlying, 'real' universe has laws similar to ours or might be completely different?
07:49 < jonathan__> i dunno, would have to look up the guy's papers or etc.  there was something about how the simulation created 4 dimensions.  and how quantum mech would reveal "the code".   oh and a nice allusion to string theory of course.
07:51 < jonathan__> bogus crack-smokin hypotheses always comes down to string theory...   obviously watched too many bad episodes of that one star trek with the holodeck
07:51 <@archels> oh ya. There's probably an analog to Godwin's law for quantum mechanics in these types of discussions.
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07:52 < jonathan__> they're hiring a postdoc.  requirement:  must look fashionable in black sunglasses.   LOL
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07:59 <@kanzure> this is why i don't like philosophy/politics in here
07:59 <@kanzure> everyone is bad at it
07:59 <@kanzure> and people tend to not be good at making novel/unique thoughts on the topic
07:59 <@kanzure> ben goertzel used to show up in here, if anyone cares.
07:59 <@kanzure> his username was bgoertzel
08:03 < Ummon> it's nice to know that we have an arbiter on matters of philosophy and politics that we can rely on
08:03 < Ummon> I am reassured
08:03 <@kanzure> fuck off and die
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08:03 < gradstudentbot> Coffee? Never tried it.
08:04 <@kanzure> "HAHA it's so funny that i can make an observation about dictatorships, aren't i clever?" nope..
08:06 <@kanzure> besides, i never implied that and assuming that i implied that is the worst. what i implied was that everyone is awful, and that it the topic is off-topic, not that i have ultimate knowledge of philosophical questions. what a douchebag.
08:07 < jonathan__> a reminder of basic modern economy theory:   a dollar represents work, though for an organization or non-profit activity like open source, a dollar represents a vote.  He with the most dollars has accumulated the most votes.  this is how the market votes, with dollars.  the most popular projects are voted to the top by collecting the most dollars.
08:08 <@kanzure> yawn, that's really broken and wrong too. i can have $0 and still build amazing projects out of my own effort.
08:09 < jonathan__> the market is not involved in your decision to build your own projects for your own effort.
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08:09 < jonathan__> i.e. in your own little bubble you can do whatever you want.
08:09 < jonathan__> no one has to use it, either.
08:10 < jonathan__> maybe no one wants to, either.
08:11 <@kanzure> why did you bring up "modern economy theory" in particular?
08:18 < chris_99> http://www.lifesaversystems.com/lifesaver-products/lifesaver-bottle seems a really cool idea, the filters are really cheap too, £20 for 4, with a 0.015 micron filter
08:20 <@kanzure> jonathan__: what is your professonional opinion about feasibility of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/A%20256-element%20ultrasonic%20phased%20array%20system%20for%20the%20treatment%20of%20large%20volumes%20of%20deep%20seated%20tissue%20-%20Daum%20-%20Hynynen%20-%20IEEE%201999.pdf
08:20 <@kanzure> this one has relevant driving schematics http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/Driving%20circuitry%20for%20focused%20ultrasound%20noninvasive%20surgery%20and%20drug%20delivery%20applications%20-%20Hynynen%20-%202011.pdf
08:23 <@kanzure> the digital phase shifter (in the second one) sounds like a good idea
08:41 <@kanzure> man of steel is what dbz should have been
08:41 <@kanzure> i mean the dbz movie
08:42 <@kanzure> i guess that was actually a dragonball movie and they have a chance to redeem the franchise
08:42 <@kanzure> except the story is too similar ("didn't you know? you were supposed to take over the planet.")
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11:32 <@kanzure> well that's dumb. there wasn't a journal for papers solely about brain-computer interfaces.
11:32 <@kanzure> http://neurogadget.com/2013/06/29/first-official-brain-computer-interface-journal-coming-in-january-2014/8317
11:33 <@kanzure> http://www.tandfonline.com/action/aboutThisJournal?journalCode=tbci20
11:44 <@archels> Taylor & Francis? Are they any good?
11:45 <@kanzure> no idea. they might be less evil than elsevier but that's not hard.
11:45 <@archels> Informa plc is a multinational publishing and conference company with its head office in Zug, Switzerland and its registered office in St Helier, Jersey.[3] It has offices in more than 43 countries and more than 8,500 employees. It owns numerous brands including AchieveGlobal, CRC Press, Datamonitor, Institute for International Research, ESI International, Lloyd's List, Routledge and Taylor & Francis.
11:45 <@kanzure> i didn't know that taylor & francis owned crc
11:46 <@kanzure> oh is this informaworld?
11:46 <@kanzure> "Its online publishing portal Informaworld provided subscribers with more than half a million journal articles and 13,000 e-books from all its imprints.[17] In June 2011 the journals and e-books transferred to a new website, Taylor & Francis Online"
11:47 <@kanzure> "Abstracting and indexing databases and bibliographic databases were to move from Informaworld to Taylor & Francis Online at a later date.[18]"
11:48 <@kanzure> too bad the academic community isn't good at keeping people informed about which publishers are switching sites or merging or whatever
11:48 <@kanzure> would have been nice to know that informaworld was disappearing
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11:49 <@kanzure> "The CRC Press was originally founded as the Chemical Rubber Company (CRC), which supplied laboratory equipment to chemists. In 1913 the CRC offered a short (116-page) manual called the Rubber Handbook as an incentive to purchase one of their products.[1] Since then the Rubber Handbook has evolved into the CRC's flagship book, the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.[1] In 1973, in light of the success of its publishing ventures, the ...
11:49 <@kanzure> ... company changed its name to CRC Press, Inc, and exited the manufacturing business.[1] In 1986 it was bought by the Times Mirror Company; in 1997/98 it became a publicly held company. In 2003 CRC became part of Taylor & Francis, which in 2004 became part of the UK publisher Informa.[1]"
11:50 <@kanzure> i never knew that's where the crc handbook came from.
11:51 <@kanzure> http://www.crcpress.com/aboutus/history
11:51 <@kanzure> "In 1900, Arthur Friedman a student at Case School of Applied Science in Cleveland, Ohio, and his brothers Leo and Emmanuel, started a part-time enterprise to produce rubber aprons and sell them to chemistry laboratories. They published the first edition of the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics in 1913 as a marketing incentive, giving a copy away with each sale of a dozen or more aprons. Designed to fit in the pockets of those aprons, the ...
11:51 <@kanzure> ... little book provided chemists with all the essential chemical data they needed."
11:52 <@kanzure> too bad they gave up on their pocketbook goal
11:53 <@kanzure> it's weird how proud they are that they have a CD... isn't it a little late to be boasting about CDs? what about DVDs or blu-rays? and why not just give me a phone with the data on it instead of a 2500 page dead tree? at least a phone will fit in my apron pocket.
11:53 < brownies> what about, you know, a web site.
11:53 <@kanzure> they have that too, but they charge $20,000/mo for access or w/e
11:54 < brownies> wonderful.
11:54 <@kanzure> isn't science just the best?
11:56 <@kanzure> can someone test if http://stamplin.com/api/docs/extracttextpdf/ can read crc pdf data (the scanned pdfs)
11:56 <@kanzure> not sure if it is doing ocr or ont
11:57 <@kanzure> *not
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12:20 < Burninate> They should have an e-reader
12:20 < Burninate> that can fit in the apron pocket
12:22 < Burninate> I wonder what it costs to print the full 8lb super-phonebook size
12:23 <@kanzure> e-reader/phone same thing, right?
12:23 <@kanzure> "something with a screen that goes beep boop"
12:23 < Burninate> something that *they can distribute*
12:23 < Burninate> ship a Kindle in a box with a broken SD card port and 8GB of CRC data on it
12:23 <@kanzure> i suppose i would be less annoyed with an e-reader thing, because on android i would expect things like searching and they probably wouldn't implement searching because they hate their readers
12:23 <@kanzure> sure
12:24 < Burninate> if they want to DRM their shit end to end
12:25 <@kanzure> ugh
12:25 <@kanzure> that just makes me even more annoyed and even less likely to recommend their product
12:26 <@kanzure> "more annoyed" i mean, when i have to circumvent their drm.
12:26 < Burninate> no
12:26 < Burninate> I'm saying create a literal completely locked down device that gives CRC handbook and only CRC handbook
12:26 < Burninate> that does not weigh 8lbs
12:26 <@kanzure> but drm doesn't work. why wouldn't i just intercept the data between the screen and the device?
12:27 < Burninate> Why not just scan the handbook?
12:27 <@kanzure> we did!
12:27 <@kanzure> that's why i was asking about ocr solutions (above)
12:27 <@kanzure> so far nothing has been able to reliably extract numbers from the scanned pages
12:27 < Burninate> 0.o
12:28 <@kanzure> there's some "pdf to data table" tools, but they all expect pdfs that aren't scans.. but that's cheating and what's the point. getting good data from scans is the hard part.
12:28 <@kanzure> and tesseract seems to require a lot of training.
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12:28 <@kanzure> fenn: do you have a link to your crc sample?
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12:30 < Burninate> there are copies on LibGen
12:30 < Burninate> up to 2010
12:30 <@kanzure> yep
12:30 <@kanzure> but those are scans i think
12:30 < Burninate> doubtful
12:30 <@kanzure> well, it would be great if they are not
12:31 <@kanzure> if you have seen these non-scan versions, could you possibly show us?
12:31 < Burninate> 131 and 115MB is too small for scans of this scale book
12:31 < Burninate> I'm getting them now
12:31 < Burninate> 2010 and 2009
12:31 <@kanzure> they might be djvu and compressed or something
12:31 < Burninate> I've got a high-quality scan of a Tufte that's 400MB somewhere in here :)
12:32 <@kanzure> then we should run it through
12:32 <@kanzure> http://source.mozillaopennews.org/en-US/articles/introducing-tabula/
12:32 <@kanzure> https://github.com/jazzido/tabula
12:32 <@kanzure> "Caveat: Tabula only works on text-based PDFs, not scanned documents."
12:32 <@kanzure> ha ha ha
12:39 < Burninate> the libgen mirror that serves large works is slow, but at least functional at the moment
12:40 <@kanzure> would you also be interested in checking tabula on the file?
12:40  * Burninate is not in a frame of mind to mess with anything that has no windows binary atm
12:41 <@kanzure> ah you are on windows
12:41 < Burninate> I am learning my way out of 'stuck on windows'
12:41 < Burninate> but not right this moment
12:42 <@kanzure> well, my two recommendations are linux in a virtual machine, or you can start using cygwin, which gives you linux things in a terminal without running linux.
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13:10 < delinquentme> http://stamplin.com/api/docs/extracttextpdf/
13:12 < Burninate> kanzure: the libgen 90th ed is full-txt searchable
13:13 < Burninate> even the chemical diagrams
13:14 <@kanzure> huh.
13:15 < Burninate> does that alleviate the need for your table thing, or make it a good candidate?
13:15 < Burninate> here's a copypaste of three lines:
13:15 < Burninate> 568 Azulene Bicyclo[5.3.0]decapentaene C
13:15 < Burninate> 10
13:15 < Burninate> H
13:15 < Burninate> 8
13:15 < Burninate> 275-51-4 128.171 bl or gr-blk lf
13:15 < Burninate> (al)
13:15 < Burninate> 99 dec 270; 125
13:15 < Burninate> 10
13:15 < Burninate> i H
13:15 < Burninate> 2
13:16 < Burninate> O; s EtOH,
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13:16 < Burninate> eth, ace, acid;
13:16 < Burninate> sl chl
13:16 < Burninate> 569 Balan
13:16 <@kanzure> it makes it a good candidate for tabula
13:16 < Burninate> N
13:16 < Burninate> -Butyl-
13:16 < Burninate> N
13:16 <@kanzure> because copy-paste wont work :)
13:16 < Burninate> -ethyl-2,6-dinitro-4-
13:16 < Burninate> (trifluoromethyl)aniline
13:16 < Burninate> C
13:16 < Burninate> 13
13:16 < Burninate> H
13:16 < Burninate> 16
13:16 < Burninate> F
13:16 < Burninate> 3
13:16 < Burninate> N
13:16 < Burninate> 3
13:16 < Burninate> O
13:16 < Burninate> 4
13:16 < Burninate> 1861-40-1 335.279 66 121
13:16 < Burninate> 0.5
13:16 < Burninate> , 148
13:16 < Burninate> 7
13:16 <@kanzure> in other words.. junk data.
13:16 < Burninate> okay, guess so :)
13:17 <@kanzure> but nice try. you also get points for the optimism.
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14:22 < eudoxia> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/256/5053/55.full.pdf
14:22 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/b9c1e8988f4aba79fe3092d4145375ef.txt
14:23 < eudoxia> oh derp the pdf was on the google search results
14:23 < eudoxia> thanks anyways paperbot
14:25 < eudoxia> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-8659.00273/pdf
14:26 < paperbot> no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/a3ecd1f90c3cf1e12d6bb3a7b97c987a.txt
14:28 < gradstudentbot> I remember the paper, I just don't remember the details.
14:37  * brownies pokes gradstudentbot 
14:37 < gradstudentbot> Does this look contaminated to you?
14:38 < eudoxia> more gradstudentbot fun plz
14:38 < gradstudentbot> Nobody has tried this before.
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18:05 <@kanzure> also, i'm curious why anyone thinks their data is right (the "probably OCRd" crc pdf)
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20:03 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: so why haven't we done a black market antibody thing yet?
20:03 < yashgaroth> takes a bit to set up, and I don't know too many people to sell to
20:04 <@kanzure> well, the story sort of sells itself
20:04 <@kanzure> it would be possible to get it into the news
20:04 < yashgaroth> not the good kind of news
20:04 <@kanzure> and then just wait for the right sort of customer to show up
20:04 <@kanzure> nah
20:04 <@kanzure> we could do it anonymously
20:04 <@kanzure> in fact, it might be possible to operate entirely on top of science exchange
20:04 < yashgaroth> "black market antibody sales are on the rise...by somebody. more at 11"
20:05 <@kanzure> i wonder if we could convince someone working through science exchange to copy a monoclonal antibody?
20:06 < yashgaroth> doubt it, maybe some chinese company
20:06 < gradstudentbot> Should I still be wearing gloves?
20:07 < gradstudentbot> Where did you put my samples?
20:08 < yashgaroth> monoclonals are trickier than Fc fusions, since for a fusion you can source the entire sequence from your own genome
20:09 < yashgaroth> e.g. etanercept since they just pull out the Fc sequence from immune cells, and TNF-a from wherever that gets expressed
20:10 <@kanzure> how many cycles of selection does it typically take with antibodies? or is that not the right technique?
20:10 <@kanzure> i know with aptamers you have to select/sequence a bunch of times to get specificity extremely high.
20:10 < yashgaroth> for drug discovery? thousands
20:11 <@kanzure> thousands, on the 'same' antibody?
20:11 <@kanzure> or is it thousands, until you find something that works for your target?
20:11 < yashgaroth> the latter, and then thousands more variants
20:11 < yashgaroth> novel discovery is pretty much impossible without serious funding
20:12 < yashgaroth> for copying a monoclonal, you'd very likely have to get its unique binding site sequence synthesized, then pasted into a generic backbone
20:12 < yashgaroth> and that synthesis will be recorded when the piratee company's lawyers start investigating
20:13 <@kanzure> i wonder if there's any aptamer<->antibody tricks because it seems like aptamers are much easier to mutate in your favor
20:14 <@kanzure> you could have an antibody that binds specifically to your aptamer dna or something, and then uses that as its receptor?
20:14 <@kanzure> s/receptor/discriminator/
20:14 <@kanzure> prolly wont work
20:14 < yashgaroth> there's lots of ways, but translating between the two rarely works
20:15 <@kanzure> oh, i didn't mean novel discovery
20:15 < yashgaroth> if you have a peptide aptamer you can't just stick it into an antibody and expect the same specificity
20:15 <@kanzure> i mostly meant "someone sends an antibody, then you make a pirate production pipeline"
20:15 <@kanzure> you know.. for all the kids with rare blood diseases or something.
20:15 < yashgaroth> sends an antibody sequence or their prescribed medication antibody?
20:15 <@kanzure> physically sends a sample
20:16 <@kanzure> maybe also plus sequence
20:16 < yashgaroth> well if it's prescribed you can find the sequence in the inevitable patent stack
20:17 < yashgaroth> if in the bizarre cyberpunk future people are being prescribed stuff with secret patents, then you can do peptide sequencing and/or MS
20:17 <@kanzure> MS on an antibody?
20:17 <@kanzure> mass spec will tell you what, in this case?
20:17 < yashgaroth> exact sequence
20:17 <@kanzure> maybe i am bad at mass spec
20:18 < yashgaroth> antibody gets fragmented into many pieces, some of which are in the detection range of the spectrometer
20:18 < yashgaroth> you build up a bunch of peaks from that and then reconstruct the sequence from it
20:18 <@kanzure> "he protein is digested by an endoprotease, and the resulting solution is passed through a high pressure liquid chromatography column. At the end of this column, the solution is sprayed out of a narrow nozzle charged to a high positive potential into the mass spectrometer. The charge on the droplets causes them to fragment until only single ions remain. The peptides are then fragmented and the mass-to-charge ratios of the fragments measured. ...
20:18 <@kanzure> ... (It is possible to detect which peaks correspond to multiply charged fragments, because these will have auxiliary peaks corresponding to other isotopes - the distance between these other peaks is inversely proportional to the charge on the fragment). The mass spectrum is analysed by computer and often compared against a database of previously sequenced proteins in order to determine the sequences of the fragments. This process is then ...
20:19 <@kanzure> ... repeated with a different digestion enzyme, and the overlaps in the sequences are used to construct a sequence for the protein."
20:19 <@kanzure> according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_sequencing#Mass_spectrometry
20:19 < yashgaroth> yeah, that one
20:19 <@kanzure> well that's neat.
20:19 <@kanzure> didn't know that trick.
20:20 <@kanzure> which database is used for protein fragment lookup? just rcsb/uniprot?
20:20 < yashgaroth> it's mostly if you have no idea what the protein is, since you won't get a full sequence...but you get enough that you can trace it back to the genome and infer the rest of the protein from the coding sequence
20:20 < yashgaroth> you can use blast if you've got a decent number of fragments I assume, not really my specialty
20:21 <@kanzure> huh? but i thought you don't have the sequence yet, just the mass-to-charge ratios.
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20:22 < yashgaroth> well yeah it only really gets you a guess at what residue combinations are in there
20:22 <@kanzure> well whatever. i get you.
20:22 < yashgaroth> realistically you'd probably do traditional protein sequencing, since the variable region is in the n-terminus of the antibody
20:22 < yashgaroth> (edman degradation)
20:23 <@kanzure> if pharma is worth hundreds of billions (in sales), then why wouldn't black market pharma be worth even more?
20:23 < yashgaroth> those prices are enforced, or at least backed, by the government
20:23 < yashgaroth> I'm sure you could get decent money from it though
20:23 <@kanzure> for a great deal of drugs, that's not particularly useful to patients
20:24 <@kanzure> yeah, i think there's at least a few billion in there somewhere
20:24 <@kanzure> hundred million at least
20:24 < yashgaroth> there's surely some fraction who have some money, but their insurance is too shitty to cover drug X
20:25 <@kanzure> it's weird how there's a market around recreational drugs, but not around the stuff that keeps you alive
20:25 <@kanzure> i mean, some recreational drugs do keep you alive if you're physically dependent, but let's ignore that case..
20:25 < yashgaroth> I'm sure many people would prefer brand-name cocaine for more money
20:25 <@kanzure> sure, no more bad hits
20:26 <@kanzure> "lacing? what the hell is that?"
20:26 <@kanzure> anyway, there's no reason you couldn't have an anonymous brand too
20:26 < yashgaroth> no more heroin cut with fentanyl, cocaine cut with talcum powder
20:26 < yashgaroth> I just read some possibly-true story about a brand of russian cigarettes sold exclusively on the black market
20:26 <@kanzure> cool.
20:27 <@kanzure> the story was just about its existence?
20:27 < yashgaroth> ah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Ling
20:27 < yashgaroth> "Jin Ling cigarettes are only sold illegally and the brand is the first to be designed explicitly for smuggling"
20:28 <@kanzure> "The packet design resembles the American brand Camel in color, typeface and layout,[2] but instead of a camel, it features a mountain goat.[1] Jin Ling cigarettes are only sold illegally and the brand is the first to be designed explicitly for smuggling.[3] It has been reported by customs officials as the "most seized" brand in Europe;[1] in 2007, 258 million Jin Ling cigarettes were seized by authorities in EU countries.[4]"
20:28 <@kanzure> this looks sort of like they were just copying some other brand's logos or something, and that the manufacturer is known
20:28 <@kanzure> i mean, that the operators are known
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20:28 < gradstudentbot> Are you published?
20:28 < yashgaroth> being immune to extradition is the next best thing
20:29 < yashgaroth>  /prosecution
20:29 <@kanzure> you can type "/ /" to make your message start with "/"
20:30 < yashgaroth> doesn't work in hexchat or I'm doing it wrong, anyway whatever
20:31 <@kanzure> /
20:31 <@kanzure> you can also use /say
20:31 < yashgaroth> /yeah but effort
20:32 <@kanzure> hehe "black market EMR"
20:32 < yashgaroth> isn't that more like black market CC#s
20:32 < crw> /say should also work
20:32 < crw> oh, derp, you said that
20:32 < yashgaroth> /
20:33 < crw> note to self: read full buffer :P
20:33 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: well, i was just thinking that if useful medicinal drugs can be bootstrapped on 10k-50k of investment if you know what you're doing, it seems like it would be valuable to manage those operations and just outsource that work
20:33 <@kanzure> like, there's probably some people out there who wouldn't mind owning the market on black tylenol or w/e
20:33 <@kanzure> tylenol is probably a bad example
20:33 <@kanzure> that particular market is crazy
20:33 < yashgaroth> bad profit margins, but yes
20:34 < yashgaroth> anyway the investment is mostly irrelevant to the specific drug, or number of drugs you're making
20:34 <@kanzure> is it?
20:34 < yashgaroth> most of the upfront cost is capital equipment
20:34 <@kanzure> i don't think so. CROs already have that equipment and you can just pay them to do things.
20:35 < yashgaroth> true but CROs are a ripoff
20:35 < yashgaroth> you have a minimal cost for antibody sequence, and then it's just buying food for the cells and some salt and shit
20:36 < yashgaroth> oh well there's also setting up a stable cell line that produces lots of the protein, that's annoying
20:37 <@kanzure> i wonder how much immunosupressants cost
20:37 < yashgaroth> lots of them have been around for a while, they're all small-molecule and surely generic
20:38 < yashgaroth> pretty sure they're all prescription only but that's to be expected
20:39 < yashgaroth> might be able to get away with either nothing or some anti-inflammatories, depends on what you're trying to sneak past the immune system
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21:13 < heath> did anyone ever record/download this?
21:13 < heath> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/294437-1
21:13 < heath> http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/294437-2
21:14  * heath also wants http://www.synbiosafe.eu/DVD/Synbiosafe.html
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--- Log closed Mon Jul 01 00:00:12 2013