--- Log opened Sun Jul 14 00:00:25 2013 00:16 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:23 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:25 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:28 -!- Thomas42 [~Thomas42@static.105.236.9.5.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:33 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:47 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:06 -!- Guest18382 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:29 < jonathan_> kanzure: lets record a voice over for the carlsbad lab video 01:37 -!- archels` is now known as archels 01:37 -!- archels [~neuralnet@sascha.esrac.ele.tue.nl] has quit [Changing host] 01:37 -!- archels [~neuralnet@unaffiliated/archels] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:38 -!- ParahSail1n [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38 -!- strangewarp [~quassel@c-67-176-51-26.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38 -!- ParahSail1n [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:39 -!- strangewarp [~quassel@67.176.51.26] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:07 -!- strangewarp [~quassel@67.176.51.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:08 -!- strangewarp [~quassel@c-67-176-51-26.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:23 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:26 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27 -!- Thomas42 [~Thomas42@static.105.236.9.5.clients.your-server.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:00 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:07 -!- raygeld [~emankcin@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 03:13 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:47 < archels> haha. There's now an interesting movement to spend a billion dollars making a map of the nervous system Dr Henry Markram's... Whatever it is, there's several of them... 03:47 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:48 < archels> billion dollar projects all aroudn 03:53 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:58 -!- Guest28997 [~quassel@192.210.211.75] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 03:58 -!- underscor [~quassel@192.210.211.75] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:58 -!- underscor is now known as Guest5474 04:01 -!- Guest5474 [~quassel@192.210.211.75] has quit [Client Quit] 04:03 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:11 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:13 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:13 -!- adillian [adillian@0542da9a.skybroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:16 -!- undersco2 [~quassel@192.210.211.75] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:07 -!- kmo [~kmo@unaffiliated/kmo] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 05:11 < archels> man, GitHub's new pull request/compare interface is complete shite 05:12 < archels> not only is it buggy, it also costs a dozen more mouseclicks than before to file a PR 05:12 -!- adillian [adillian@0542da9a.skybroadband.com] has quit [] 05:26 -!- kmo [~kmo@unaffiliated/kmo] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:29 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:02 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:14 -!- slime_mawmag [~slime@122.52.233.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:38 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:44 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:47 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:56 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:57 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:01 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:03 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:07 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:10 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:17 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:22 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:29 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:30 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:33 -!- slime_mawmag [~slime@122.52.233.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:33 <@kanzure> jonathan_: there's a few sites where you can cheaply pay for voice overs. unless, uh, you specifically wanted my voice? 07:34 <@kanzure> jonathan_: we could do it in the style of mystery science theater 3000. 07:34 < gradstudentbot> God, why won't they just kick me out. 07:40 < Viper168> do it like morgan freeman 07:48 < ParahSail1n> that homeless guy from columbus OH would do a pretty good voiceover 07:49 -!- slime_mawmag [~slime@122.52.233.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:52 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1233158 07:52 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ed2dfe3acb9a53a87407e07acccdea94.txt 07:52 <@kanzure> damn you, science! 08:16 < archels> Experiments performed in Italy? Didn't expect they would be able to get approval for this. 08:40 -!- slime_mawmag [~slime@122.52.233.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:41 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:42 -!- marciogm [~textual@177.106.57.86] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:49 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:52 < yashgaroth> jonathan_ 08:52 < yashgaroth> that's not really surprising since they did it ex vivo 09:20 -!- adillian [adillian@0542da9a.skybroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:30 -!- weles [~mariusz@c-71-234-3-169.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:48 -!- weles [~mariusz@c-71-234-3-169.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:53 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@ip65-46-170-6.z170-46-65.customer.algx.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:53 -!- ianmathwiz7 [~chatzilla@ip65-46-170-6.z170-46-65.customer.algx.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:54 -!- strangewarp [~quassel@c-67-176-51-26.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:55 -!- strangewarp [~quassel@c-67-176-51-26.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:03 < jonathan_> kanzure: i was thinking to get max & you on a conf call and then have a little discussion about diybio as a lab etc, that will be the voice over, which I will heavily edit to leave impressive parts. not slap stick stuff. whatever you've always wanted to say about doing bio. 10:04 <@kanzure> sounds a little boring. 10:04 <@kanzure> uh. i guess i could be convinced. 10:05 < yashgaroth> I'm ambiguous 10:13 <@kanzure> bkero: can you explain xulrunner to me? how does it use xpcom? 10:13 <@kanzure> oh gross it's an xul runtime environment 10:19 <@bkero> Seems like you answered your own question. :) 10:20 <@kanzure> i think it's crazy that mozilla has stopped maintaining the xpcom bindings. that seems like shooting yourself in the foot. 10:26 < jonathan_> ambiguous? 10:26 < jonathan_> do you mean ambivalent lol 10:26 < jonathan_> or do you mean to say you will confuse all the viewers ha 10:29 -!- adillian [adillian@0542da9a.skybroadband.com] has quit [] 10:31 -!- adillian [adillian@0542da9a.skybroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:37 < jonathan_> i have been taking biotin to see if it does anything. no apparent difference so far. 10:41 < yashgaroth> probably both, honestly 10:57 -!- padz [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:59 < jonathan_> oh no joejack "'Muscle power truths' revealed" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23238424 11:01 -!- adillian [adillian@0542da9a.skybroadband.com] has quit [] 11:01 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1766/20130697.full 11:01 < paperbot> http://pdf.highwire.org/stamped/royprsb/280/1766/20130697.full.pdf 11:03 < gradstudentbot> Can I get my own desk? 11:06 * brownies pokes gradstudentbot 11:06 < gradstudentbot> Why aren't you doing science right now? 11:17 * kanzure pokes gradstudentbot too 11:17 < gradstudentbot> Wow, at my old school, I was never allowed this much science. 11:18 <@kanzure> after creating the ultimate bot there's just not that much left to do in life 11:20 < jonathan_> there's always royalties to collect. 11:29 -!- ryankarason is now known as rk[] 11:32 -!- ParahSa1lin [~parah@ip-64-134-48-68.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:51 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:56 <@kanzure> JSObjectMakeConstruct can be passed a reference to a function but JSObjectMakeFunction can only be passed a js string. argh. 11:56 <@kanzure> oops, i mean JSObjectMakeConstructor 11:57 <@kanzure> oh JSObjectMakeConstructor takes a JSObjectCallAsConstructorCallback called callAsConstructor 11:58 <@kanzure> and now i see that JSObjectMakeFunctionWithCallback takes a JSObjectCallAsFunctionCallback called callAsFunction.. so i guess that's equivalent. just not where i expected it to be. 12:01 -!- ParahSa1lin [~parah@ip-64-134-48-68.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:13 -!- marciogm [~textual@177.106.57.86] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:24 <@kanzure> jonathan_: i dunno if that fundraiser idea is gonna work 12:24 <@kanzure> jonathan_: but you should get those email addresses assembled into a list today (or sooner) and start using mailchimp 12:25 < jonathan_> i'm not trying to raise funding for the group. in fact i am keeping my distance. 12:26 < jonathan_> the attendee list is nothing.. I am talking about global audience not these few local visitors 12:26 <@kanzure> 400 email addresses is a good start 12:26 <@kanzure> 1% ctr ~ 4 people. that's better than nothing. 12:28 < jonathan_> the entire city is behind the launch 12:28 < jonathan_> let them handle that paperwork exercise 12:29 < jonathan_> i.e. the mayor of the city will have more influence on the real life public 12:29 < jonathan_> I'm thinking of the different audience that these guys won't reach, the online audience 12:31 < jonathan_> the city has several marketing girls whose job it is to scheme ways to promote the project 12:31 <@kanzure> i doubt that random marketing employees will be aware of the exact niches on the web to target 12:31 <@kanzure> everyone and their mom says "oh we'll just advertise on reddit/4chan/whatever". yawn.. 12:31 < jonathan_> exactly - well, they aren't doing that. they are going to locals i.e. wealthy taxpayers and politicos 12:32 <@kanzure> "oh we will get jojack to do an AMA on reddit!!!11oneone" god i hate this world 12:32 < jonathan_> no, he won't 12:32 <@kanzure> anyway, makezine and boingboing used to be okay traffic sources for this sort of thing 12:32 < jonathan_> there is separation of the "biz" world and the hacker world, they don't mix 12:33 <@kanzure> he wont do an AMA on reddit? 12:33 < jonathan_> I dunno but I doubt it would be popular anyway 12:33 <@kanzure> that's how you get the clueless nerd demographic to get excited 12:33 < jonathan_> that has to be a grassroots effort. i.e. from the hackers for the hackers 12:33 <@kanzure> bullshit. the hackers hate your business model. 12:33 < jonathan_> otherwise it's just fake verbage 12:34 <@kanzure> what are you going to do, spam discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org ? they're all poor. 12:34 <@kanzure> and only about ~500 anyway 12:34 < jonathan_> i think you are making assumptions, so, dont do that 12:34 <@kanzure> i've known them for a while now. is my information worng? 12:34 <@kanzure> wrong. 12:34 <@kanzure> not worng 12:34 < jonathan_> i am not trying to raise money. 12:35 <@kanzure> then what do you want to do? 12:35 < gradstudentbot> Sorry, I can't really talk right now because I'm burried in grant writing. 12:35 < jonathan_> the real money will come from real channels and boring biz 12:35 <@kanzure> that didn't answer my question.. 12:36 < jonathan_> my idea is to attract some talented people. 12:36 <@kanzure> for what? 12:36 < jonathan_> or at least, to affect some change to the typical lab model 12:37 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:37 <@kanzure> how is biotechnbeyond any different from any other pay-to-access lab? 12:37 < yashgaroth> it's cheaper and worse-equipped 12:37 < jonathan_> good question 12:38 < jonathan_> how can hackers influence the lab to make it better? 12:38 < yashgaroth> also you don't need a business plan/company/idea 12:39 < jonathan_> "how is linux different from aix or minix?" did that question matter back in the day.. no.. some hacker just went on doing what he wanted to do because he had the resources. 12:39 <@kanzure> "how can hackers influence the..." lame. 12:39 <@kanzure> linux was different because of the licensing 12:39 <@kanzure> minix wasn't gpl iirc 12:40 < Zhwazi> Minix is MIT or something. 12:40 < jonathan_> don't get caught up in the details 12:40 <@kanzure> i was answering your question 12:40 < jonathan_> it is an example of a hacker who wanted to do something, and did it. 12:40 < jonathan_> it was a rhetorical question duh 12:40 <@kanzure> but you're charging them 12:41 < jonathan_> um dude? 12:41 <@kanzure> why should i use your shitty lab instead of buy my own 12:41 < jonathan_> what have I paid so far? 12:41 <@kanzure> that's because jojack isn't organized 12:41 < jonathan_> nope 12:41 <@kanzure> are you selling equity to him? 12:41 <@kanzure> how does the deal work? 12:42 < jonathan_> what "deal" ? 12:42 <@kanzure> so you have no agreement whatsoever between you personally and biotechnbeyond? 12:42 < jonathan_> here is the facts. there is a lab space. there is some lab equip. it is getting better. it is taking a long time, whatever. there is plenty of room to hack. 12:43 < jonathan_> do you think the original mit hackers sat around arguing about "what's the deal with this mainframe usage model?" no... they got in the labs and did their thing. period. 12:43 <@kanzure> those are not facts. those are broad sweeping statements. 12:43 <@kanzure> no, stallman looked into the licensing and then noticed that he was being assraped 12:44 < jonathan_> stallman was only 1 dude and maybe not the best dude either. 12:44 <@kanzure> so your suggestion is that we should fool people into agreeing to something just because we can 12:44 < jonathan_> the lab has a couple crazy dudes already and imho they're a liability 12:44 <@kanzure> what if the city of san diego owns all your work? is that really something you want? 12:44 <@kanzure> this would preclude things like selling derivative products or ip 12:45 < jonathan_> again I think you are making assumptions and you should stop. 12:45 <@kanzure> i asked you what the agreement was 12:45 <@kanzure> and you made up some handwaving about things getting better 12:45 < jonathan_> don't get so ahead of the game when chaos is involved. 12:45 < yashgaroth> wait who are the crazy dudes 12:46 < jonathan_> ha 12:46 < jonathan_> anyways a hacker only needs one thing to get a job done. resources. period. 12:46 < jonathan_> no need to wait for beauracracy or specific lab hours or even lights to be turned on. 12:47 <@kanzure> uh.. 12:47 < jonathan_> the fact that it's taking a long time to set up the lab is in favor of the diy crowd anyway. 12:47 <@kanzure> i don't care about "setup", that's not what we're talking about 12:47 < jonathan_> there is no "ownership of ip" if there is no official lab 12:48 < jonathan_> there is no "ownership of ip" if there is no project 12:48 <@kanzure> what do you mean "there is no official lab"? then what is it. 12:48 < yashgaroth> a museum of vintage lab equipment 12:48 < jonathan_> ha 12:49 <@kanzure> so then the thing about membership fees is.... a lie ? 12:49 <@kanzure> what's going on here 12:49 < yashgaroth> the city (of carlsbad not san diego) makes no claims on any IP or revenues or anything 12:49 <@kanzure> yes but what about the lab itself 12:49 < jonathan_> Ummmmmmm 12:49 < jonathan_> do you know what "grey area" is 12:50 <@kanzure> no, that's why it's called grey area 12:50 <@kanzure> just because it's grey does not mean it will be perpetually grey 12:50 <@kanzure> it could resolve into something that i fucking htae 12:50 <@kanzure> hate. 12:51 <@kanzure> let's say i lived in your area. why would i transition my projects from my own lab to biotechnbeyond if i am increasing the chances that they can be compromised (either legally/ownership/licensing, who knows)? 12:51 < jonathan_> these are kind of funky questions like "well how do I work in the lab. well who owns it. who do I pay? I can't work here unless someone owns it and I pay someone. Oh I'm not going to work here because it's too disorganized and I can't pay anyone right?" 12:51 <@kanzure> i'm not claiming i have to pay someone 12:52 <@kanzure> but so far all of your online content has talked about membership fees. i don't want retroactive membership fees, shit. 12:52 < jonathan_> statistically unlikely. 12:53 < jonathan_> "i'm not going to do anything because it might become something that I hate so I'm not going to do anything at all" Ummmmm 12:53 <@kanzure> i never said i'm not doing anything 12:53 <@kanzure> whether or not biotechnbeyond exists does not particularly impact my plans 12:53 < jonathan_> you're not my target audience lol 12:53 <@kanzure> true enough 12:53 <@kanzure> wait, aren't i? 12:53 < jonathan_> "you" is metaphorical "you" 12:53 <@kanzure> you said 'hackers'. right? 12:55 < jonathan_> you might as well say "well most projects in an incubator fail and only 1 out of 20 incubator projects ever amount to anything so I wont work in an incubator environment" lol 12:55 <@kanzure> so you *are* an incubator.. so you take equity of commercial projects? 12:56 < jonathan_> grey area 12:56 < jonathan_> and there is no such thing as a retroactive grey area 12:56 < jonathan_> "so you are" .. well I am nothing, I'm just a dude, I don't represent the lab 12:56 <@kanzure> you're close enough to the lab right now for me to not care about the difference :P 12:57 < jonathan_> don't insult me 12:57 <@kanzure> how is that an insult 12:57 <@kanzure> "your involvement in the lab so far makes me not care whether or not you consider yourself officially representing the lab" 12:57 < jonathan_> I dont want anything to do with their lame media or lack of focus 12:57 < yashgaroth> we haven't gone any further than thinking about taking a stake of people's potential sbir money, beyond that it's just monthly fees 12:58 < jonathan_> "the lab" did not even have ONE project set up 12:58 < jonathan_> "the lab" is busy arguing about who tossed out expired bio materials from an old fridge 12:58 <@kanzure> i thought someone already confessed 12:58 < jonathan_> i'm just a dude who set up two working projects for fun 12:58 <@kanzure> (like a week ago) 12:59 <@kanzure> just because you call it fun doesn't mean those other people aren't going ot incorporate you and invoice you for who knows what 12:59 <@kanzure> retroactive control of grey area happens pretty often 12:59 < jonathan_> well just because you don't have any motivation to do a project if you are given lab space doesn't mean other people won't want to so pbbt lol 12:59 <@kanzure> so, one of my ideas was that it would be nice to do some CRO work in san diego 13:00 <@kanzure> and i could just pay yashgaroth $50/hour to do lab work on that front, and use biotechnbeyond 13:00 <@kanzure> but if i'm netting $40-$60k/month, i don't want biotechnbeyond eating up my revenue 13:00 < jonathan_> money != hacking 13:00 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: btw sorry about assuming how much you'd like to be paid. i have no idea what that startup is paying you. 13:01 < jonathan_> you are talking business. I am talking hacking. 13:01 < jonathan_> you can do both just maintain separation of the two. 13:01 < yashgaroth> my current company pays me half that 13:01 < yashgaroth> then again they have full-time work and a modicum of job security 13:01 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: k keep fighting the good fight 13:01 < jonathan_> awww poor yashgaroth 13:01 < yashgaroth> heh 13:01 < jonathan_> :-( 13:02 < yashgaroth> that's pretty goddamn good for biotech at my age/experience, sadly 13:02 <@kanzure> yeah i agree 13:02 <@kanzure> but i also think that if i pay more, i should be able to get better talent 13:02 <@kanzure> you're not exactly bottom of the barrel 13:02 < jonathan_> fact is, i'm just a dude off the street who saw an opportunity and resources to do some bio hacking. (ok admittedly lame hacking so far but everything starts with "hello world" anyways) 13:03 < yashgaroth> for 50/hr you can get a phd with several years of industry experience 13:03 < jonathan_> it would be nice to have some talented hackers in the lab to actually Build Something Cool 13:03 <@kanzure> maaaybe. i haven't confirmed that yet. everyone keeps telling me "no dude, you gotta be a name brand company to get a phd at all." 13:04 < jrayhawk_> sounds implausible 13:04 < brownies> isn't there rampant unemployment amongst PhDs or something? 13:04 < jonathan_> and i doubt those guys will argue "well who owns the ip? well isn't it too disorganized? am I going to retroactively get un-hacked on my hacking projects?" ... Ummm 13:04 < brownies> i'm pretty sure i've heard griping along those lines. 13:04 < yashgaroth> I see plenty of contract phd positions out there 13:04 <@kanzure> jonathan_: so, why should i participate in biotechnbeyond when i can setup my own lab, and *guarantee* to hackers that their work is licensed in a certain way. 13:04 <@kanzure> brownies: yes there's lots of unemployment. 13:04 < jonathan_> you can, if you want, why not? 13:04 < yashgaroth> there's unemployment because they feel entitled to 80k/year for a job a BS can do for half that 13:05 < yashgaroth> personal opinion there, mind 13:05 < jonathan_> other than, there's 2000 sq ft of exiosting lab space or whttever it is - oh and by the way the ability to leech some needed supplies from the sponsored projects 13:05 < jonathan_> people in the event asked me the same thing 13:05 < gradstudentbot> Where did all my bands go? 13:05 < jonathan_> "well if this is so easy why don't you just do it at home? why not in your own kitchen?" Ummm isnt that missing the point DUH 13:05 < yashgaroth> we have some marginally expensive equipment they wouldn't have to buy 13:06 * brownies pokes gradstudentbot 13:06 < gradstudentbot> Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. 13:06 <@kanzure> yes but that equipment is useless because of all your grey area 13:06 < jonathan_> how are you going to have a singularity in your tiny little home lab where no one else wants to go. 13:06 <@kanzure> if you can guarantee to me that you wont touch my money, that my projects are my own (except perhaps for marketing purposes), etc., then the deal starts to sound better. 13:06 <@kanzure> i never said i required a singularity 13:06 < jonathan_> I never said I was talking about you, lol 13:06 <@kanzure> that's just kurzweil/hype talking 13:07 < jonathan_> money != hacking, again 13:07 <@kanzure> i don't even know what you are trying to say now 13:07 < jonathan_> why do you keep bringing up money? 13:07 <@kanzure> basically you have a really nebulous, shaky situation that can go either way (good, bad, middle). prove me otherwise. 13:07 < yashgaroth> money = hacking when you need more than ramen to create a product 13:07 < jonathan_> prove to me that shaky situations do not always benefit smart hackers. 13:08 <@kanzure> wooow wtf 13:08 < jonathan_> you're going off in the wrong direction 13:08 <@kanzure> basically everything that has ever happened, ever. 13:09 <@kanzure> i feel so strongly about this supporting evidence that i feel your statement is the crazy one that needs to be proven. 13:09 < jonathan_> i'm talking about doing projects and you keep coming back to "well what happens with my money. well what happens with my IP. well where's the organization." 13:09 <@kanzure> yes, doing projects *in a building owned by the city* is not covered by activity in public space. 13:09 < jonathan_> then fifteen minnutes later you'll say "I have plenty of money, I don't need your money anyway" lol 13:10 < yashgaroth> they are leasing it to us 13:10 < jonathan_> and how does the city even know you are doing a project? 13:10 <@kanzure> see! so what does the leasing contract even say. 13:10 <@kanzure> jonathan_: well, if we want to talk about doing things secretly, that's different, an entirely different conversation 13:10 < jonathan_> DUH 13:10 < jonathan_> geez man 13:10 <@kanzure> if i want to do secret things, why would i want to do that in a public lab ?? 13:10 < jonathan_> there's no secret invovled 13:10 <@kanzure> huh? 13:11 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: can you give me details on this leasing contract. 13:11 < yashgaroth> all I know is it's $1 per year, jojack is the only one who's seen it afaik 13:11 <@kanzure> was jojack the one who signed it? 13:11 < yashgaroth> I...think so 13:11 < jonathan_> umm the contract is on the web 13:11 < jonathan_> it's in one of the news articles, there's a link to it 13:11 < jonathan_> probably best to read it directly 13:12 < jonathan_> btw you are a very black & white thinker. 13:12 < jonathan_> the world however operates in the grey a lot of the time. 13:12 < yashgaroth> oh sweet http://carlsbad.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?meta_id=75184&view=&showpdf=1 13:12 <@kanzure> just because it's grey to you doesn't mean that it's not already set in stone somewhere 13:12 <@kanzure> if you wish hard enough, it isn't going to change 13:12 <@kanzure> you should look into it 13:12 <@kanzure> ignorance wont save you 13:12 < jonathan_> by the time anyone figured out even 10% of my hacking projects, they were already done and distributed 13:13 <@kanzure> reading.. 13:13 <@kanzure> "new invention patents" 13:13 < jonathan_> that is why I am saying, the disorganization only benefits you 13:14 <@kanzure> "Bio, Tech and Beyond LLC" 13:14 < jonathan_> by the time there is organization to the lab it will be 6 mos later and a project might already be done, complete, and out of there 13:15 < yashgaroth> there isn't anything about the city taking a cut, just that they be seen as "fostering" research & education 13:15 < jonathan_> what are they going to do, sue you for a hack that is open source and doesn't yield any income? No 13:15 <@kanzure> "Pursuant to their business plan," 13:15 <@kanzure> open source is actually the money-making arm of the free software movement 13:15 < yashgaroth> "Create a functional cell and molecular biology lab within 6 months of inception" ah shit we failed that one already 13:15 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:15 < jonathan_> I don't really think you are onboard with distributing open source projects 13:15 <@kanzure> that's why all the licenses are pro-business 13:16 <@kanzure> uh. i don't think you understand open source. 13:16 < jonathan_> "biz of open source" != hacking & distributing open source 13:16 <@kanzure> since when. 13:16 <@kanzure> wtf? 13:16 < jonathan_> why do you keep coming back to money and business. 13:16 <@kanzure> because you're an LLC 13:16 <@kanzure> it says so right in that doc 13:17 < jonathan_> who is "you're" 13:17 <@kanzure> the lab 13:17 <@kanzure> not you yourself :) 13:17 < jonathan_> then you should type "the lab" not direct to me 13:18 <@kanzure> another reason i keep mentioning it is because there are down-stream consequences of decisions. commercial stuff is a core component of open source. 13:18 <@kanzure> this is also why almost everyone regrets the non-commercial segment of creative commons (it was a mistake) 13:18 < jonathan_> way back in the day I walked into a state univ lab and asked the prof if I could do some hacking on unix. did I waste time asking him silly questions about "who owns the IP? who might I have to pay? Are you going to require that I'm an LLC?" ... no... I got access and did my projects and got things done and distributed 13:19 < yashgaroth> "If we are successful in creating a successful_ bioincubator, we will consider acquiring equity in 13:19 < yashgaroth> future companies we help create, similar to the way that Y-Combinator has operated" but that's not in the legally-binding part 13:19 <@kanzure> uh, that's because the university owns your work 13:19 <@kanzure> that's very well known. it's because of the bayh-dole act. 13:19 < jonathan_> did I do it for money : no. did I do it to generate IP : no. 13:19 <@kanzure> every single university is extremely hostile about it. 13:19 <@kanzure> that's why they all have 'office of technology commercialization' 13:19 < jonathan_> was it a successful hack : Yes. was it distributed : Yes. 13:19 <@kanzure> https://www.google.com/search?q=office+of+technology+commercialization 13:20 < jonathan_> well if you want to waste time creating reasons why you don't want to do anything interesting in the lab that is up to you. 13:20 <@kanzure> uh.. what? 13:20 < jonathan_> meanwhile it is a resource sitting there waiting to be used. 13:21 <@kanzure> so wait, can you summarize our differences on this matter? i'm having trouble understanding completely. 13:21 < jonathan_> ha, I dunno 13:21 <@kanzure> your argument seems to be that it's an LLC but it doesn't matter because _____ 13:21 <@kanzure> actually, can i just buy the company 13:22 < jonathan_> I have no idea what you are smoking. 13:22 <@kanzure> it's a company. it can be bought/sold just like any other company. 13:22 < jonathan_> yea so what. 13:22 <@kanzure> so what if i want it 13:22 < jonathan_> why do I care? 13:22 <@kanzure> because all these "wah hackers wont want to work there" problems will get resolved by me 13:22 < jonathan_> why does it prevent me from doing work? 13:23 <@kanzure> it doesn't, you can work for anyone you want man 13:23 <@kanzure> you can volunteer for whoever, just be careful about who owns your volunteer labor output 13:23 < jonathan_> why does LLC matter? 13:23 < jonathan_> why does ownership matter? 13:23 <@kanzure> because licensing determines the different motivations of participants 13:24 <@kanzure> e.g. your hackers 13:24 < jonathan_> whatever dude 13:24 < jonathan_> I didn't beat myself up about "omg what type of license should I put on my tecan project" 13:24 < jonathan_> I just did it and distributed it and it is out there, done. 13:24 < jonathan_> in fact I encourage people to RIP IT OFF 13:24 < jonathan_> "PLEASE TAKE MY CODE AND COPY IT" 13:25 < jonathan_> "PLEASE BUILD SOMETHING COOL WITH IT" 13:25 <@kanzure> the legalities of reverse engineering are already pretty well established. you putting on whatever license you like on your software is absolutely no problem. 13:25 < jonathan_> that is hacking. it is not business. 13:25 <@kanzure> this is not anything like your tecan situation though 13:25 <@kanzure> well, actually, you probably did the tecan work at ut austin 13:25 < jonathan_> no comment 13:25 <@kanzure> exactly. see? 13:25 < jonathan_> I did it at home 13:25 < jonathan_> it's a grey area dude 13:26 < jonathan_> by the time anyone cares it will be 15 years later and too late to care 13:26 < jonathan_> there is no money made on it 13:26 < jonathan_> there is no deep pocket 13:26 < jonathan_> there is no IP to chase 13:26 <@kanzure> uh, how do you know. i thought transcriptic is using your perl work. 13:26 <@kanzure> that sounds like money to me. 13:26 < jonathan_> see, you keep coming back to money again. WHY? 13:26 <@kanzure> the IP is the copyright. i know IP is a terrible term, but in modern society, that's what it means. 13:27 <@kanzure> huh? you just claimed that there is no money made on it. but transcriptic is using it. 13:27 < jonathan_> are you jealous that someone might take your open source and make profits? 13:27 <@kanzure> no, i never said that 13:27 <@kanzure> i was just proving you wrong on another point 13:27 <@kanzure> learn to read :( 13:27 <@kanzure> you just said it: 13:27 <@kanzure> 13:26 < jonathan_> there is no money made on it 13:27 <@kanzure> transcriptic is evidence against that 13:27 < jonathan_> duh, by me 13:27 < jonathan_> I don't care what they do with it 13:27 <@kanzure> i know *you* don't, but the university might, etc. 13:27 < jonathan_> I said, "I want people to RIP IT OFF" 13:27 < jonathan_> that is their business not mine 13:28 < jonathan_> this has nothing to do with hacking 13:28 < jonathan_> or open source 13:28 < jonathan_> you keep bringing up business terms for no reason 13:28 < jonathan_> and bringing up money matters for no reason 13:28 <@kanzure> i think you're wildly mistaken about what open source means or why hackers are careful about this shit 13:28 < jonathan_> when the fact of the matter is, they are separate entities 13:28 < gradstudentbot> You don't happen to have any more virgin flies, do you? 13:29 < jonathan_> you are talking just like big pharma 13:29 <@kanzure> so, in all likelihood, the university wont go after you for damages because they wont see you as having enough money, even if they wanted to get damages out of transcriptic's downstream use of your illegal license 13:29 < jonathan_> "We need to have a meeting to discuss whether or not to go ahead with this POSSIBLY WORLD CHANGING PROJECT because we are concerned that the IP might have adverse ramifications on our business model" .... geez man 13:29 <@kanzure> but, that's a personal risk that is yours to take, and it's unfair to misrepresent that to others as non-existant 13:29 < jonathan_> I have no idea what you're talking about, because I did it at home. 13:30 <@kanzure> you had a tecan at home? 13:30 < jonathan_> I think we better have a meeting to discuss that 13:30 <@kanzure> anyway, i never said anything about meetings to discuss meetings 13:30 <@kanzure> nothing in the log has said anything about that 13:30 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:30 < jonathan_> let's set up a conference bridge where we can touch base. ha 13:30 < gradstudentbot> The protocol is wrong. 13:30 < jonathan_> don't mix business with hacking 13:31 < jonathan_> you want to make a startup, fine, then be very clear about your IP 13:31 < jonathan_> then bring up all the points you are raising and be very careful who owns what 13:32 < jonathan_> what does that have to do with encouraging some good hacking projects int he lab. 13:32 <@kanzure> there are other reasons to make open source projects than just business. maybe i want other people to use my work, and not just me? etc. 13:33 < jonathan_> fine 13:33 < jonathan_> once it's distributed, it can't be taken back 13:33 <@kanzure> we weren't talking about them taking things back 13:33 <@kanzure> they can post fines against you 13:34 <@kanzure> and sue you and litigate and be really mean :( 13:34 < jonathan_> oh really. 13:34 < jonathan_> at&t went after uc berkeley, they did not go after the hackers who wrote original bsd. 13:35 <@kanzure> because those hackers had a contract with uc berkeley 13:35 <@kanzure> there are technical reasons that hapened that way 13:35 <@kanzure> it wasn't magic/chance 13:35 < jonathan_> hey, let's not hack anything because people might be really mean at some point in the future when they finally figure out 15 years from now what we're doing! 13:35 <@kanzure> huh? why would you say that? 13:35 < jonathan_> that was sarcasm 13:35 <@kanzure> yeah but it doesn't make any sense. how about you hack now, but without all of these nebulous externalities? 13:36 <@kanzure> isn't that easier? 13:36 < jonathan_> and oh by the way they're going to spend six figures on legal fees going after people who made no money on the project! (sarcasm) 13:36 <@kanzure> why do you keep saying no money? open source projects can make money all the time. and just because *you* didn't make money doesn't mean they can't go after you for wrongful licensing. 13:37 <@kanzure> so look, i think good hackers deserve protection 13:37 < jonathan_> like I said you keep mixing money/business with hacking, if you kept them separate, at least for the purposes of the discussion, you'd be free of mental conflict 13:37 <@kanzure> that's what licenses were written for. so that hackers can get all that legal shit out of the way and just use something created for them. 13:38 < jonathan_> well, I am sure anyone could get something signed by the exec level of the lab if they were really so concerned. 13:38 <@kanzure> hrmm 13:39 < jonathan_> i'll bring it up next time and I'll say we need a kanzure clause. 13:39 <@kanzure> clause in what? 13:39 < jonathan_> kanzure clause 13:39 <@kanzure> yeah but a clause where 13:39 < jonathan_> you know, a big fat man in a red suit with a white beard? 13:39 < jonathan_> lol 13:39 < jonathan_> oh wait thats santa claus sorry got confused 13:39 <@kanzure> i mean, i could get one of my lawyers to draft up some basic agreement where jojack signs off that biotechnbeyond has no ownership of some open source project 13:40 <@kanzure> i am not really sure what that doc would look like, i'm no lawyer 13:40 < jonathan_> that's pretty much the plan from the beginning anyways 13:40 < jonathan_> there is no plan to take ip ownership 13:40 < jonathan_> it's the first question I asked the city back in feb 13:40 <@kanzure> yeah but i would rather have that explicitly written down and signed 13:40 < jonathan_> sure fine 13:41 < jonathan_> that's why I said grey area dude 13:41 < jonathan_> not sure how they can claim ownership if nothing was signed anyway 13:41 <@kanzure> "work occurred on premises" etc.. it happens all the time. 13:41 < jonathan_> there is no agreement either way 13:41 <@kanzure> "implied consent due to presence on premise" ugh 13:42 <@kanzure> <--- screwed one too many times in the past 13:42 < jonathan_> I dunno, would have to check calif state law maybe 13:43 < jonathan_> texas might be harsher 13:43 <@kanzure> so if i pay you to do hacking stuff, why is that not hacking? like imagine i was paying you to work on whatever you prefer. why would that be not hacking? 13:43 < jonathan_> fact is someone could do a project and complete it and distribute it and no one would even know there was a project done 13:43 < jonathan_> if you pay me then it is a business deal that's why 13:43 <@kanzure> if you want to be completely anonymous, like i said, that's a different discussion. i fully agree with you that you can slip under someone's nose very easily. it's stupid easy. 13:44 < jonathan_> uh 13:44 < jonathan_> "different discussion" lol 13:44 < jonathan_> like an hour ago I said we were talking about a grey area before the lab is organized 13:44 < jonathan_> how is that a different discussion than what I was talking about an hour ago lol 13:44 <@kanzure> because grey area means the lab doesn't even know and can't guarantee 13:44 < jonathan_> maybe you're a little slow on the uptake today 13:45 <@kanzure> whereas saying, "i want to sneak around" is explicitly something different 13:45 < jonathan_> um I dont' sneak 13:45 <@kanzure> "not officially sanctioned" 13:45 < jonathan_> everything is right out in the open mr fbi agent 13:45 <@kanzure> anyway, yes it's entirely possible that i am slow. i don't deny that. 13:45 < jonathan_> it's not officially unsanctioned 13:45 <@kanzure> haha i see 13:46 < jonathan_> why does anything have to be officially sanctioned when there's no "real lab" yet ?? 13:46 <@kanzure> well whatever. what is your list of projects that you need money for? 13:46 <@kanzure> it is a real lab. it has a real place and an LLC and everything.. i didn't say it has to be officially sanctioned, of course. but if something was to be sanctioned, it would be by the LLC owner or w/e. 13:46 <@kanzure> if there's some software work you're considering, i could help out on that, but mostly i understand hardware/bio projects take priority 13:47 <@kanzure> i have been trying to get yashgaroth or ParahSail1n to start a black market antibody operation 13:47 -!- joejacks [46d303a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.211.3.163] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:47 <@kanzure> yashgaroth: ping 13:47 < jonathan_> yea and apparently someone's a bit SLOW in that dept 13:47 <@kanzure> joejacks: yo would you sign a doc for an open source project at biotechnbeyond saying biotechnbeyond doesn't own it? 13:47 < yashgaroth> I'm down 13:48 < jonathan_> you're down? 13:48 < yashgaroth> for the antibodies 13:48 <@kanzure> for organ harvesting 13:48 <@kanzure> oh, antibodies.. 13:48 < yashgaroth> or w/e 13:48 < jonathan_> oh I thought down meant napping 13:48 < jonathan_> waiting for you dude! 13:48 < jonathan_> I got my side all ready to go! 13:48 < joejacks> yes we will have contracts with tenants 13:49 < jonathan_> kanzure is concerned that you are going to steal my IP 13:49 < jonathan_> so now we need to sign a paper that says you will not sue me for back-IP 13:49 <@kanzure> yeah i mean, if you want hackers to do hacking things, you have to protect their rights 13:49 <@kanzure> or something like that 13:49 < joejacks> hands off policu except as regards grant apps conducted with us where we ask indirects 13:49 <@kanzure> indirects? 13:50 < jonathan_> now I will have nightmares of lawyers coming to get me in the night. or something. 13:50 <@kanzure> jonathan_: hey at least it's not nightmares of the fbi.. 13:51 <@kanzure> jonathan_: so that's prolly an improvement right 13:51 < yashgaroth> depends how good the lawyers are 13:51 < jonathan_> I am disappointed that the FBI agent did not come snoop on me 13:51 < jonathan_> where are you, mr. fbi 13:52 < jonathan_> I think he should have introduced himself or something. 13:52 <@kanzure> joejacks: was there anyone really interesting at the event yesterday? 13:52 <@kanzure> jonathan_: nah that would have been a buzzkill. "okay everyone, please shut up while this scary fbi agent introduces himself." 13:52 < gradstudentbot> That's definitely a Cell paper. 13:54 < jonathan_> if money were the goal we'd be writing some intstagram app to be acquired by facebook isnt that right? 13:55 < jonathan_> why even bother with bio at all? 13:59 -!- upgrayeddd [uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yycmulcjvmupyqsi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:02 < jonathan_> make sure to call it the "kanzure clause" 14:03 -!- joejacks [46d303a3@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.211.3.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:09 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:12 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:13 < heath> carlsbad lab = http://www.meetup.com/DIYbio-San-Diego/ ? 14:13 <@kanzure> not quite 14:13 <@kanzure> http://biotechnbeyond.com/ 14:13 <@kanzure> just got off the phone with him 14:15 < heath> why'd joseph move from san francisco to san diego? 14:16 * heath gets cable internet tomorrow in the new/old house \\o/ 14:16 * heath finishes tearing carpet from the floor and decides to read the logs later 14:17 < jonathan_> to start the lab 14:17 < jonathan_> "the lab" 14:19 < jonathan_> looks like I will remove all my stuff from "the lab" due to IP concerns 14:21 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:33 < jonathan_> did you get all your q's answered? 14:47 -!- Sanky [~SankyZNC@unaffiliated/sanky] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:53 <@kanzure> he wanted to talk about other things 14:53 <@kanzure> just telling me how the event went from his perspective, etc. 14:53 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:56 < juri_> IP concerns. wheee, fun. 14:57 < juri_> at freegeek arkansas, we did not have a problem with random hackers hacking whatever. we taught them how to contribute to upstream trees. 14:57 < jonathan_> something implied the kombucha lab bench was a success? imho it was not a success 14:57 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:57 < juri_> maybe the concept of 'upstream tree' and 'distro' are not yet well enough congealed in biohacking? 14:58 <@kanzure> jonathan_: i thought your goal was to get a project that already worked, into the lab? 14:58 <@kanzure> jonathan_: what was your success criteria 14:59 <@kanzure> juri_: but surely you agree that you shouldn't do free work for a company that might claim ownership of your system 14:59 < juri_> oh certainly. 14:59 -!- augur [~augur@208.58.5.87] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59 <@kanzure> *of your work 14:59 < juri_> i'm just trying to put it in words that make the most sense to me. 14:59 <@kanzure> juri_: btw, yes, upstream, releases, versioning, branches, forks, all of these concepts are completely foreign to biologists. and most biohackers. 14:59 < juri_> and try to eek out a solution, ased on my past experiences. like all humans. or at least, the good ones. 14:59 <@kanzure> all of the good biohackers seem to have this down 15:00 <@kanzure> maradydd has always expressed excellent technical insight, but that's cheating because her background is hacking and infosec 15:00 <@kanzure> and biotech. 15:00 < juri_> mm. put me in charge of one. ;) 15:01 < juri_> i've run a building full of hackers for over three years, and was the only one on FGAR's history to ever get re-elected to the board. i know handling crazy hackers. 15:01 * juri_ dreams. 15:02 < juri_> I shoould have taken more of a biohacker angle at FGAR. we had a GC/MS, and a microbiologist on hand.. 15:04 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:05 < delinquentme> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2358697/The-revolutionary-blood-test-predict-long-youll-live-ailments-youll--fast-youll-age.html#comments 15:05 < delinquentme> does anyone have the paper for this ? 15:05 < delinquentme> having trouble locating the research repos 15:06 < jonathan_> i'm no longer going to talk about hacking here because it seems the meaning has been corrupted and/or lost 15:06 < jonathan_> so focused on "money" and "ownership" that it is silly 15:07 <@kanzure> jonathan_: i think you are just misunderstanding me 15:07 <@kanzure> jonathan_: is it possible that we're just bad at communicating, and that we're actually still hacking it up? 15:07 < jonathan_> stallman did more harm to the world than benefit IMHO 15:08 < jonathan_> " but surely you agree that you shouldn't do free work for a company that might claim ownership of your system" -> wrong 15:08 < jonathan_> I disagree 15:08 <@kanzure> jonathan_: i was asking juri_, not you. i know your opinion is different (and i am okay with that). 15:08 <@kanzure> wait.. now i am confused. 15:09 < jonathan_> go re-read the ad-free version of bsd license about fifty times 15:09 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 15:10 < jonathan_> stallman is the one who corrupted good work. 15:11 <@kanzure> i have nothing against the bsd license (but, juri_ does, i think) 15:12 < jonathan_> stallman also destroyed the very motivation for contributing to projects - namely, for acknowledgement and ego 15:12 < jonathan_> because, his license does not include attribution 15:16 <@kanzure> so, i'm actually happy that you're totally in support of non-money-making projects 15:16 <@kanzure> because months ago it sounded like the opposite 15:16 < juri_> i do.. 15:16 < juri_> wow. 15:17 <@kanzure> you do have a problem with bsd? 15:17 <@kanzure> i mean, we've never talked about it, but i just assume so because you seem to be a generic gnu chick :) 15:17 < juri_> yes. it boils down to a mantra i've triedto follow all my life. 15:17 <@kanzure> and your opinions tend to be very consistent around that philosophy 15:17 <@kanzure> so... yeah. +1 for being able to predict things. 15:17 < juri_> 'lend not thy hand to thine own enemy'. 15:18 < juri_> I don't like having people selling my software, competing against me, and having my software closed. this is unfair, to me. 15:18 < jonathan_> dude it depends on context 15:18 <@kanzure> no offense, but these sound like the standard arguments 15:18 < juri_> i've contributed to BSD'd projects, but only when i was young, and not being paticularly picky whos source code i improved. 15:18 <@kanzure> offence? 15:19 < juri_> none taken. :) 15:19 < jonathan_> I have both a job and a hobby. a job makes $. a hobby makes ego. hobby is not for business by definition. 15:19 < juri_> me and jonathan should not speak. ;) 15:19 <@kanzure> whatever, jonathan is very good at what he does, so it almost doesn't matter 15:20 < jonathan_> your key point is "competing against me," 15:20 < juri_> my key point is "closed". i don't care if you compete against me, under the terms of the GPL. 15:20 -!- wizrobe [~emankcin@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:20 < jonathan_> assume you have $100 million in the bank right now. why would you care if others "compete against me" 15:20 < juri_> in fact, i'll give you all the tools to do it. 15:20 < gradstudentbot> Let's have a pset party. 15:21 <@kanzure> jonathan_: background/context is that juri_ gets paid to work on GPL software. also she prefers it exclusively. 15:21 < jonathan_> i have specific examples where GPL has stifled innovation just like bad patents stifle innovation. 15:22 <@kanzure> actually, simulations have shown that the entire patent system is net negative or w/e 15:22 < juri_> i'd be interested, assuming theres some solidity there, to see how you came to that conclusion. 15:22 <@kanzure> there is no evidence that anyone claimed that there is a perfect system that had no failure rate 15:22 < jonathan_> if you are doing it "for work" then sure you are OK to insist that in return for daily bread, your values are met. 15:22 < juri_> johnathan: i'm starting to get offended. 15:22 <@kanzure> jonathan_: are you actually interested in this argument? i'm just wondering. we could be designing mosquito killer death rays or something. 15:22 < juri_> you have this concept of 'for work' or 'for hoby'. i just DO. 15:23 <@kanzure> jonathan_: because juri_ is the type of person that will carry this conversation on for a very long time :) 15:23 < jonathan_> I have been in design teams where we wanted specifically to R&D innovative products but either the market was destroyed by GPL or components were off-limits due to GPL. 15:23 <@kanzure> jonathan_: which isn't bad.. but just be aware of it. 15:23 < juri_> yes, i will. ;) 15:23 < gradstudentbot> The autoclave smells really good. 15:23 <@kanzure> jonathan_: so what's the upcoming project list? 15:23 < juri_> johnathan: the GPL does not guarantee you business opportuntities. 15:23 < juri_> in fact, i imagine NO license does. 15:23 < jonathan_> gcc is a great example of how GPL has killed compiler optimization for example 15:23 < juri_> FFFT! 15:24 < juri_> wow. 15:24 <@kanzure> on an unrelated point, llvm seems to be doing pretty well. 15:24 < juri_> because something is free, no-one wants to develop non-free.. so thats a problem> 15:24 < juri_> ? 15:25 < jonathan_> because it is a viral license which forces you to release (and support!) the restricted portions, a for-profit business has difficulty "adding value" 15:25 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/1/76.abstract?sid=9fccb8af-9ea4-4791-b635-fb0e4b84e770 15:25 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fije%2Fdyr207 15:25 < juri_> so, for profit business has a right to add value now. 15:25 < juri_> i thought the purpose of the for-profit business was to extract revenue. 15:26 < gradstudentbot> Let's pour a bunch of chemlights into a spinner flask and claim it's luminescent e.coli. 15:26 < delinquentme> paperbot, http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/1/76 15:26 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fije%2Fdyr207 15:26 < yashgaroth> god damnit gradstudentbot 15:26 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I'm just looking for a journal that will take that paper. 15:27 < wizrobe> lol 15:27 < jonathan_> "i thought the purpose of the for-profit business was to extract revenue." ... no but I'll end it at that 15:27 -!- marciogm [~textual@177.106.57.86] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:28 < delinquentme> a for-profit business has difficulty "adding value" 15:28 < juri_> jonathan: if you're looking at a for profit to do more than extract revenue, maybe you should be looking at non-profits. you know, businessses that have a stated goal other than greed. 15:28 < delinquentme> thats quite a vast statement no? 15:28 < jonathan_> no comment 15:29 < gradstudentbot> You used the wrong formula. 15:29 < jonathan_> do homework on "added value" 15:29 < jonathan_> i dunno what the project list for the lab is 15:29 < juri_> i don't have to do homework. i add value to software every day. you may even have heard of some of it. 15:29 < jonathan_> I am looking for collaborators 15:30 < juri_> good luck. 15:30 < jonathan_> I have my own ideas, but, it depends on what other people might want to do 15:30 < jonathan_> for example, I think continuous flow culturing would be a cool setup. 15:31 < delinquentme> jonathan_, I see recurring themes here 15:31 < delinquentme> " Heres a book, read it all " 15:31 < juri_> I've recently been adding water cooling to my electrical engineering bench. gotta feed the 3d printer. 15:31 < delinquentme> I know a few things about value added 15:31 < delinquentme> but this seems more a philosopical discussion 15:31 < delinquentme> philosophical ** 15:32 < jonathan_> the interesting thing is that the biologists in the lab are really focused on continually asking "what's the application for it?" ... which is bizarre because scientists are supposed to focus on doing something "for science" not "for product" 15:32 < juri_> just because our philosophy is radically opposed, doesn't make us incapable of communicating, thankfully. 15:32 < juri_> that does seem to be very 'hacker culture'. 15:32 < juri_> find an app for it, and get it in place doing something. 15:33 < yashgaroth> there were maybe a half-dozen academic researchers there, the rest were in industry 15:33 <@kanzure> jonathan_: i think the stereotype that scientists are "unapplied" is false. everyone always likes to chew on the other people. 15:33 < jonathan_> it's a problem if the solution is assumed to be locked up in a safe somewhere. I build hobby solutions as 100% public domain to be used by anyone anywhere even for sale by someone else to enhance the world. 15:34 < jonathan_> I dont attempt to think "omg someone 10 years from now might make a profit on this so I better restrict them from doing that before I even start" 15:34 < juri_> johnathan: i'm a bit guilty of what you're talking about.. i do tend to pour my energy into 3d printing, out of fear of patents. 15:35 < jonathan_> well it's interesting that "continuous flow for kombucha" seems to be taken somehow differently than "continuous flow for biofuels" or "continuous flow for antibody production" (or whatever I dunno) 15:35 < juri_> there has been a lot of talk of patenting the 3d printer industry out of existence, so i have to admit, i do push 15:35 < jonathan_> the point is to friggin compile & run "hello world" then it can be ported to another "machine" ... to state it metaphorically 15:35 < juri_> just a bit harder' if i think its a line someone else may crioss (and patent) first. 15:37 < juri_> working with others is really hard. I have tended to teams of 3-5 people max, as a result. 15:38 < jonathan_> the reason the "applied science" is funky in that environment is because "citizen science" is heavily promoted and discussed, and "experiment on an unknown area like neglected disease and maybe find something completely new" is also bandied about (esp considering assay depot presence) yet when it comes to idea generation there is no consideration for building re-usable technology (which maybe is the big flaw I'm describing) and 15:38 < jonathan_> consideration attempting to figure out how to jump to a specific solution. 15:38 <@kanzure> there are already patents on lots of 3d printing htings. but sure, i could imagine future more patents. 15:38 <@kanzure> jonathan_: is assay depot still involved or what's the deal? 15:38 < jonathan_> connection is kevin 15:39 < juri_> johnathan: mind if i say something a little pointed on that subject? 15:39 < jonathan_> imho the definition of science is more like: find or characterize something without regard for it's use or attempting to bias the outcome. 15:39 < juri_> 'no consideration for building re-usable technology'.. this makes good sense. 15:40 < jonathan_> it's a free room say whatever you want 15:40 < juri_> when your experiments are purpose designed for results.. 15:40 < jonathan_> "experiments are purpose designed for results.." -- that is because the idea of open source is being corrupted here 15:41 < jonathan_> now you guys even want to ensure that "volunteer work shouldn't be public domain" 15:41 < jonathan_> wth 15:41 < juri_> the idea does not come from science. its being forced in. 15:41 < jonathan_> it's a new lab so keep out the corruption 15:41 < juri_> mmm. 15:41 * juri_ rethinks how to restate. 15:41 <@kanzure> who said it shouldn't be public domain? 15:41 < jonathan_> it's totally strange that everyone in the lab agrees "oh patents are evil" and then turn around and start behaving in exactly the same way 15:42 <@kanzure> just because patents are evil doesn't mean you shouldn't get a defensive patent license rolling 15:42 < juri_> re-usable technology is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what someone who is looking for a research-paper-worthy-result is looking for. 15:42 <@kanzure> patents still exist whether you like them or not 15:42 <@kanzure> and the reality is that the company can still retroactively patent sue you for whateverthefuck 15:42 <@kanzure> s/company/lab company 15:42 < juri_> they are looking for a machine that they will have to justify to someone, to get the results to write the paper.. 15:42 < jonathan_> "re-usable technology is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what someone who is looking for a research-paper-worthy-result is looking for." --> mistake 15:42 < jonathan_> the scientists want to do an experiment which finds something novel, yes. 15:43 <@kanzure> the scientists often build custom equipment that isn't reusable. they don't even document it correctly. 15:43 < jonathan_> the TOOLS that they use for that experiment are all common and should be easy 15:43 <@kanzure> you've seen those really bad schematics in papers, right? 15:43 < juri_> and when you're justifying a machine, right or wrong, saying "same machine the students were beating with bats and clubs last year" doesn't work. 15:44 < gradstudentbot> Can I borrow some sulphuric acid? 15:44 < jonathan_> well anyway if they thought correctly they'd be engineers not scientists lol 15:44 < jonathan_> prototypical scientist: head in the cloud wondering what makes pollen fly in the wind 15:44 < jonathan_> there is actually a couple dudes like that, they are funny. 15:45 < gradstudentbot> I have to order new primers. 15:45 < jonathan_> they were all clustered around the microscope the other day saying "we need to find a bug! let's find a bug to see if this mag really works!" 15:45 < jonathan_> someone actually found a bug on the floor 15:45 < jonathan_> they put it on a slide 15:45 < juri_> i find stereotypes are not very useful online. we're all outliers, more-or-less. ;) 15:45 < jonathan_> then commenced tripping out "wow !" 15:45 <@kanzure> yeah, am i a bad person if i do both engineering and basic research? does this make me evil? 15:45 <@kanzure> what if i also inherit $100 million? am i then a terrible person? 15:45 <@kanzure> blah 15:45 < jonathan_> yes, you are evil. okay next topic. 15:46 <@kanzure> alright glad we got that decided 15:46 < jonathan_> you can be both but not both on the same project. 15:46 < jonathan_> keep it focused you know. don't muck up pure research by attempting to steer it "omg we could make it solve xyz problem" 15:47 <@kanzure> what is "pure research" in this context? 15:47 < jonathan_> let's say, dna origami 15:47 < jonathan_> "let's see if we can make dna scaffolds. oh wait but let's not because it can't be used to cure cancer, forget it!" 15:48 < juri_> kanzure: i'm in a similar boat. i do my own electrical, computer, and mechanical engineering, and am as comfortable in bootstrap assembly as i am in javascript. 15:48 <@kanzure> how is that pure research? that's applied dna synthesis.. choosing which sequences to synthesize isn't just random guessing, you put a lot of thought into it. 15:48 <@kanzure> juri_: that's terrifying, why would you choose javascript as an example? 15:48 < jonathan_> "applied" to what 15:48 < juri_> kanzure: just spending a lot of time staring at it lately. 15:48 < jonathan_> I think that means vertically talented. 15:49 < jonathan_> back to lab projects eh 15:49 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-108-18-159-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:49 < jonathan_> I think it would be neat to evolve food into better gmo 15:49 <@kanzure> i thought "evolving food" was just normal crop selection 15:49 < juri_> its the definition of better that we all argue over. 15:49 < jonathan_> purple yam 15:50 < jonathan_> I would like to make more food "purple" for example. 15:50 <@kanzure> who has argued about "better" in the context of gmo? i'm not aware of anything. 15:50 < jonathan_> meh stop arguing semantics 15:50 <@kanzure> it's not semantics. she is trying to say things and i am trying to read those things. :( 15:50 < jonathan_> church evolved the tomato. 15:50 < juri_> kanzure: seriously? maybe that's just me, then. 15:50 < juri_> i'm pro GMO. anti-monsanto. 15:50 <@kanzure> juri_: most people argue against gmo completely, not about better/worse modifications to make :P 15:50 <@kanzure> sure. 15:51 <@kanzure> but what does that have to do with better GMO? sorry. 15:51 <@kanzure> i guess no monsanto would be better. 15:51 <@kanzure> so there's that 15:51 < jonathan_> Hmm there was recently a new study on purple yam lemme see... 15:51 < juri_> maybe the 'thinking' position just isn't heard much during these 'debates' over GMO food saftey. 15:52 < juri_> i'm pro GMO, as i'm pro science in general. science works. its just a question of what we are optimizing for. monsanto's idea of 'better' involves dollars rolling in, as they're a for-profit industry. 15:52 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@71-211-196-62.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:52 <@kanzure> no, i don't think it's that they are for-profit that's the problem 15:52 < juri_> this is understandable, but should not be allowed when it comes to the food products we eat. ( i know, should. i hate that word.) 15:52 < jonathan_> "Role of anthocyanin-enriched purple-fleshed sweet potato p40 in colorectal cancer prevention" 15:52 <@kanzure> i think their litigation strategies and patents are problematic 15:52 < jonathan_> paperbot http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.201300040/full 15:52 <@kanzure> but just because they are a business doesn't seem particularly offensive. yo ushoudl also hate FSF then too. they are incorporated. 15:53 < juri_> i think those are symptoms of their for-profit nature, in this legal system. something about those sets of variables needs to change. 15:53 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag2/10.1111/j.1750-3841.2008.00774.x.pdf 15:53 <@kanzure> no, you can be a for-profit entity without suing everyone into oblivion 15:53 < jonathan_> excellent! 15:53 < juri_> i'm very anti for-profit. ;) 15:53 <@kanzure> your anti-stance doesn't mean for-profit companies have to sue everyone into oblivion 15:53 < jonathan_> it would be great to make purple soybeans 15:54 < juri_> i'm not convinced. worse, i'm convinced that by not suing everyone into oblivion, and accepting investors, you leave yourself open to being sued for not being enough of a dick. 15:55 < jonathan_> also, it would be cool to make B-12 containing soybeans. 15:55 < juri_> so, maybe i should re-state my position as being anti for-profit-with-investors. 15:56 < jonathan_> sounds like your a commie 15:56 < jonathan_> *you're 15:56 < juri_> no, i don't believe in the centralized management of the redistribution of resources. 15:56 < juri_> i'm a micro-commie. i think communism should be a bunch of minigames, instead of one huge system. 15:57 < jonathan_> i'm a capitalist and I think freeloading hippies are a drain on the ecosystem. 15:57 <@kanzure> who is a "freeloading hippie"? 15:57 < jonathan_> i'm more successful than others so I deserve more reward than others. 15:58 < juri_> you had more out of the gate than others. white, male, college educated? 15:58 < jonathan_> lol bryan you're kind of like eliza sometimes ha 15:58 < jonathan_> no I didn't 15:58 <@kanzure> are you calling juri_ a freeloading hippie 15:58 < jonathan_> chinese and indians had more "out of the gate" than I did 15:58 <@kanzure> i'm just trying to understand 15:59 <@kanzure> i also don't know why you think you 'deserve' anything. if you happen to acquire something, that's yours and that's fine. but i certainly don't owe you anything (except basic human decency etc.) just because you exist.. 15:59 < jonathan_> not sure what your college degree is in, but being white u.s. born is a handicap. 15:59 < juri_> wow. 15:59 < jonathan_> and male too 16:00 < jonathan_> how come the female classmates got better grades, was it because they went into office hours and the instructors felt more inclined to revise their scores in some cases? you bet 16:00 < juri_> wow. i'm seriously running out of methods for responding. 16:01 <@kanzure> juri_: it's okay. he's a long-term project. he's been with us for years and he'll continue to be. so you don't have to fix this right now. 16:02 < juri_> kanzure: thanks. i appreciate that. i just ran through my usual methods, and came up empty. ;) 16:02 < jonathan_> "you had more out of the gate than others. " i really consider that to be insulting. 16:03 < juri_> it was a leap, but it seems to have been on target. 16:03 <@kanzure> well a minute ago you were calling me evil for having $100 million in inheritance 16:03 <@kanzure> so.. your opinion seems to have changed. 16:03 < jonathan_> ha, you take jokes so literally it's funny 16:03 <@kanzure> your jokes are bad :( 16:03 < jonathan_> everybody knows you're evil, right? 16:03 < Adifex> Everyone. 16:04 < jonathan_> gradstudentbot isn't kanzure evil? 16:04 < gradstudentbot> The protocol is wrong. 16:04 < jonathan_> see! 16:04 < juri_> ok everyone, back to hacking things. ;) 16:05 <@kanzure> juri_: do you feel like messing around with C things for like 10 minutes. 16:05 < juri_> maybe. whatcha got? 16:05 < jonathan_> where's that recent study that showed money resulted in extreme bias in double blind studies.. 16:05 < juri_> oh, did i ever show you the new demo of GNU GIFT? 16:06 < juri_> if you're interested in feature extraction based methods of image matching, you should check out the new gift demo. 16:06 < juri_> i ALMOST made it a useful web site, for getting work done. 16:06 < juri_> i still have two missing features, then i can let the public at it. 16:08 <@kanzure> juri_: https://github.com/kanzure/seed/commits/develop 16:09 <@kanzure> juri_: https://github.com/kanzure/seed/commit/d5bcaea5db544619f1ec1b89e17126d5eee19734 16:09 <@kanzure> juri_: gnome-seed compiles successfuly (./autogen.sh and such), builds seed/src/.libs/seed which when executed brings up a javascript repl 16:09 <@kanzure> and my commit there is supposed to make a function called imports.compile() that accepts a string of javascript. so: imports.compile("var x = 5;") 16:10 <@kanzure> but for some reason what i have done is wrong, it claims: TypeError '[object GlobalObject]' is not a function (evaluating 'imports.compile("x")') 16:12 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:12 <@kanzure> this seems to be relevant documentation 16:12 <@kanzure> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/JavaScriptCore/Reference/JSObjectRef_header_reference/Reference/reference.html 16:12 <@kanzure> apple uses JavaScriptCore and i guess they have this documentation up for whatever reason 16:12 <@kanzure> (i'm not sure why webkit.org doesn't host its own docs for this) 16:13 -!- weles [~mariusz@71.234.3.169] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:15 < juri_> mmm. 16:15 < juri_> sure, i've got a few, let me take a peek. :) 16:15 <@kanzure> i think i'm probably just using the wrong function here 16:15 <@kanzure> maybe JSObjectMakeFunctionWithCallback is wrong. 16:17 < gradstudentbot> The gel is streaking. 16:18 -!- jonathan_ [~jonathan@wsip-70-167-73-242.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:20 < juri_> mmm. 16:21 < juri_> reading through the source, my guess is actually that the typecast you're using has issues. 16:21 <@kanzure> my typecast is a completely uninformed decision 16:21 < juri_> i really don't see you doing anything else that should be 'wrong'. you're following all the code paterns of the code around you. 16:22 < juri_> what is that typecast supposed to be doing? to me, it seems named the ob i would expect an assembly function (and therefore macro or somesuch) to do. 16:22 <@kanzure> i need to pass the actual function that i want called when someone calls that object-as-a-function in jsland 16:22 < juri_> to me, that seems to be the javascript-to-c-glue, which should be more complicated than a typecast. 16:22 <@kanzure> my goal is to attach my function on to an object and make it callable, arguments and everything. 16:22 <@kanzure> oh. 16:22 <@kanzure> es, it's the javascript-to-c glue. 16:23 <@kanzure> +y 16:23 <@kanzure> the only other stuff in this file is javascript class definition, which seems to work differently 16:23 < juri_> so, instead of a cast there, i know as an outside programmer, i expect to see a macro, or a function. 16:23 <@kanzure> see importer_class_def 16:24 <@kanzure> i see. maybe i should just make it a class and see how that works out for me. 16:24 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 16:24 < juri_> that seems to be the direction this code is going. 16:25 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't know, but I'll have to look into that. 16:26 -!- jonathan_ [~jonathan@wsip-70-167-73-242.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:27 <@kanzure> hmm. so i tried seed_importer_handle_source in the class defs for /* Call As Function */ 16:27 <@kanzure> and i still get TypeError '[object gi_importer]' is not a function (evaluating 'imports.gi()') 16:39 <@kanzure> "13.2 Lessee shall not use, nor permit the use of, the Premises other than as described in Paragraph 13.1 above. In any case where Lessee is, or should reasonably be, in doubt as to the propriety of any particular use, Lessee may request, and will not be in breach of default if Lessee abides by, the written determination of the Municipal Property Manager that such use is or is not permitted." 16:40 < gradstudentbot> You can't guarantee that. 16:42 <@kanzure> "15.6 Develop revenue streams from membership fees, corporate sponsors, crowdfunding, direct donations, event fees, course fees and grants." 16:43 < brownies> kanzure: what're you quoting? 16:46 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:49 <@kanzure> "In its first year, the community lab will be staffed by volunteers working without pay." 16:49 <@kanzure> brownies: i'm reading from http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diybio/biotechnbeyond-resolution-2013-029.pdf 16:57 < juri_> ARGH. 16:57 < juri_> i just got my ass chewed for a half hour for trying to be helpful. :/ 16:58 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:02 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:19 < juri_> http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/ 17:22 <@kanzure> there are many reasons 17:22 <@kanzure> in old versions of phonegap there was this problem where they literally broke how clicks were handled and added like 250 milliseconds to responses 17:24 <@kanzure> that's a good writeup though. seems to be missing some of these points. 17:25 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:25 -!- jonathan_ [~jonathan@wsip-70-167-73-242.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:27 -!- jonathan_ [~jonathan@wsip-70-167-73-242.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:27 <@kanzure> "For example, the iPhone 4S snaps photos at 3264×2448 resolution. That’s over 30 megabytes of bitmap data per photo. That’s a warning for having just two photos in memory and you get killed for having 7 photos in RAM. Oh, you were going to write a for loop that iterated over an album? Killed." 17:27 <@kanzure> but that's programming wrong on mobile 17:27 <@kanzure> you would only load one photo at a time in that for loo 17:27 <@kanzure> +p 17:30 <@kanzure> "Let’s take another example. On the iPad 3, you are driving a display that probably has more pixels in it than the display on your desktop (it’s between 2K and 4K resolution, in the ballpark with pro cinema). Each frame that you show on that display is a 12MB bitmap. If you’re going to be a good memory citizen you can store roughly 45 frames of uncompressed video or animation buffer in memory at a time, which is about 1.5 seconds at ... 17:30 <@kanzure> ... 30fps, or .75 seconds at the system’s 60Hz. Accidentally buffer a second of full-screen animation? App killed. And it’s worth pointing out, the latency of AirPlay is 2 seconds, so for any kind of media application, you are actually guaranteed to not have enough memory." 17:30 <@kanzure> "And we are in roughly the same situation here that we are in with the multiple copies of the photos. For example, Apple says that “Every UIView is backed with a CALayer and images as layer contents remain in memory as long as the CALayer stays in the hierarchy.” What this means, essentially, is that there can be many intermediate renderings–essentially copies–of your view hierarchy that are stored in memory." 17:33 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:33 <@kanzure> "If you want to process camera images on Android phones for real-time object recognition or content based Augmented Reality you probably heard about the Camera Preview Callback memory Issue. Each time your Java application gets a preview image from the system a new chunk of memory is allocated. When this memory chunk gets freed again by the Garbage Collector the system freezes for 100ms-200ms. This is especially bad if the system is under ... 17:33 <@kanzure> ... heavy load (I do object recognition on a phone – hooray it eats as much CPU power as possible). If you browse through Android’s 1.6 source code you realize that this is only because the wrapper (that protects us from the native stuff) allocates a new byte array each time a new frame is available. Build-in native code can, of course, avoid this issue." 17:33 <@kanzure> huh, the garbage collector freezes the kernel? that doesn't sound right. maybe they fixed that bug in android 2.x or android 4.x.. 17:33 < gradstudentbot> The paper got rejected. 17:35 <@kanzure> "I’ve worked on Java mobile games… The best way to avoid GC’ing objects (which in turn shall trigger the GC at one point or another and shall kill your game’s perfs) is simply to avoid creating them in your main game loop in the first place. There’s no “clean” way to deal with this… Manual tracking of objects, sadly. This how it’s done on most current well-performing Java games that are out on mobile devices." 17:37 < jonathan_> java != speed 17:37 < juri_> javascript != java. 17:39 <@kanzure> mobile web apps, generally refers to javascript 17:40 <@kanzure> "So anyway, here’s where we’re at: some of the best Ruby developers in the world have forked the language specifically for use on mobile devices, and they have designed a system that both crashes and leaks, which is the complete set of memory errors that you could possibly experience. So far they have not been able to do anything about it, although they have undoubtedly been trying very hard. Oh, and they are reporting that they ... 17:40 <@kanzure> ... “personally tried a few times to fix it, but wasn’t able to come with a good solution that would also perserve performance.”" 17:40 <@kanzure> ah yes. the signs of a high quality project. 17:40 < gradstudentbot> I had to remind my professor who I was today. 17:44 < jonathan_> C == speed 17:52 < brownies> kanzure: eh? is that last part about RubyMotion? or what? 17:55 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@71-211-196-62.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: Adifex] 17:59 < jonathan_> anyone here planning on buying a new mac pro? 18:07 < jonathan_> would certainly streamline video editing 18:07 < ParahSail1n> conflict electronics? nothx 18:07 <@kanzure> conflict? 18:07 <@kanzure> brownies: yes 18:07 < ParahSail1n> patent troll 18:07 <@kanzure> jonathan_: you can build better workstations for cheaper, yadda yadda 18:08 <@kanzure> if you're going to spend $5000 on a computer you might as well get your money's worth 18:08 < jonathan_> nah i'm done with "omg i'm gonna build my own" 18:08 < jonathan_> i dunno the price tag 18:09 < jonathan_> i bet price is very competitive 18:10 < juri_> i custom build everything, so i can get the flexibility i want. coreboot supported boards are a winner. 18:10 < juri_> for instance, i'm dropping a quad-core opteron, in a motherboard which according to the vendor, supports neither quads, nor opterons. 18:12 <@kanzure> is it possible that the vendor has more information than you 18:12 < jonathan_> previously i used vimeo, youtube i dont like much. any other favorite vid hosting services? 18:12 <@kanzure> oh, the links i gave you weren't favorites, just shit i knew 18:12 <@kanzure> sorry about the crap you got from livestream :( 18:12 -!- augur [~augur@c-98-231-232-27.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:13 < jonathan_> i'm editing this vid myself so just will host it somewheres 18:13 <@kanzure> justin.tv? 18:13 < jonathan_> ustream seems free but "ad supported" 18:13 <@kanzure> you can go japanese.. http://nicovideo.jp/ 18:13 < jonathan_> the google hangout was surprisingly good integration, just press 'go' and vid was streaming + archived 18:13 <@kanzure> or chinese.. http://tudou.com/ 18:14 <@kanzure> or http://www.youku.com/ but it's essentially tudou these days 18:15 <@kanzure> after their merger. 18:15 < jonathan_> what is justin.tv? 18:15 <@kanzure> another live video streamer thingy 18:19 <@kanzure> .title http://ex.nicovideo.jp/vocanico/ 18:19 < yoleaux> ボカニコナイト-VocaNicoNight- Official Website 18:19 <@kanzure> oh man look at all the random vocaloid crap you've been missing (??) 18:20 -!- phillyj [~Thunderbi@pool-108-16-160-57.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:21 <@kanzure> phillyj: yo 18:21 < jonathan_> wow rock on 18:22 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:22 <@kanzure> .title http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1373616320 18:22 < yoleaux> 8/16開催「VocaNicoNight4 -SummerParty2013-」出演者発表トレイラー ‐ ニコニコ動画:Q 18:28 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:31 < juri_> kanzure: i used to run a 1.4Ghz P4 in my asus p2b. market segmentation is for users. 18:38 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:39 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=358496 18:39 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1001%2Fjama.1970.03180110035007 18:44 < jonathan_> should i click the video. should i click the video. should i click the video 18:44 < jonathan_> OK OK i clicked the video 18:45 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:45 * brownies pokes gradstudentbot 18:45 < gradstudentbot> I am busy doing science, go away. 18:45 < brownies> how appropriate. 18:45 < gradstudentbot> Sorry, I can't really talk right now because I'm burried in grant writing. 18:45 < brownies> that sounds un-burr-able 18:45 < jonathan_> hey that video looks a lot like my lab video! cool 18:46 < jonathan_> welll ok not so much 18:59 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:02 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 19:07 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:09 < jonathan_> http://storify.com/HackYourPhd/hyphdus-biotechandbeyond-opening-citizen-science 19:15 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:15 -!- augur [~augur@c-98-231-232-27.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:16 -!- augur [~augur@c-98-231-232-27.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:17 -!- phillyj [~Thunderbi@pool-108-16-160-57.phlapa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: phillyj] 19:17 -!- augur is now known as augur_ 19:18 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:18 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:24 -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:46 <@kanzure> http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/9210/technical-feasibility-of-decrypting-https-by-replacing-the-computers-prng/9212 20:14 < jonathan_> Um 20:14 < jonathan_> timestamp is used as random number seed so why would this be an issue 20:15 < jonathan_> lets say theres a silicon bug and it's not really random but is only 2^8 repeating values or something. so what, only bad software would use the value directly without using timestamp or other input. 20:16 < jonathan_> even if it is a predictable value there would still be a large dictionary involved so cracking would not be instantaneous. 20:16 < jonathan_> anythning on stackexchange or stackoverflow is suspect imho 20:21 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:26 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 -!- cpopell [47fff18b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.255.241.139] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 < cpopell> Greetings, folks! 20:30 < cpopell> As promised in the past, if your thing is electrohydrodynamics or femtoliter droplet impact, poke me and I have a pdf to send you. 20:32 < ParahSail1n> post it 20:33 < cpopell> It's not up online yet. 20:33 < ParahSail1n> well put it there? or is this pre-print? 20:34 < cpopell> pre-print 20:34 < cpopell> I'm offering a direct send of my masters thesis 20:38 -!- augur_ [~augur@c-98-231-232-27.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:39 -!- augur_ [~augur@c-98-231-232-27.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:40 < jonathan_> i dont even know what electrohydrodynamics means 20:41 < cpopell> affecting fluids with electricity 20:41 < jonathan_> is it related to surfing by chance? 20:41 < jonathan_> coincidentally i did some electrowetting stuff 20:42 < jonathan_> just answer yes or no, does your stuff work? 20:42 < cpopell> yes 20:42 < jonathan_> then, congrats 20:44 < cpopell> thanks :D 20:44 < cpopell> <15% error 20:44 < jonathan_> is it done in air and if so how do you handle evaporation 20:44 < cpopell> near field 20:44 < cpopell> 90-200um standoff 20:45 < jonathan_> send me the pdf i'll have a look. jcline@ieee.org 20:45 -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:45 < jonathan_> i hope it doesn't have many big words like electohydrodynamics tho 20:47 -!- augur_ [~augur@c-98-231-232-27.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:57 -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has quit [Quit: I will now play video games.] 20:59 -!- randallagordon [~randall@71-34-91-65.ptld.qwest.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:02 -!- randalla1ordon [~randall@75-164-223-240.ptld.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:11 <@kanzure> what is the expected food output per day of something like http://automicrofarm.com/ ? 21:12 <@kanzure> i think this is ph0rque 21:29 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:33 < yashgaroth> 50-100 21:33 < yashgaroth> kcal 21:34 < jonathan_> "US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano has said she will step down to become the next president of the University of California system." ... what the... 21:37 < jonathan_> paperbot is quaking in his boots right now 21:37 < cpopell> yash 21:37 < cpopell> hi 21:37 < cpopell> long time no see buddy 21:37 < yashgaroth> sup mang 21:38 < cpopell> I got a futurist gf, and a paying contract 21:38 < cpopell> most of my time = gone 21:38 < yashgaroth> haha 21:38 < yashgaroth> you in dc still? 21:38 < cpopell> yeah 21:40 < yashgaroth> had the lab opening in carlsbad, lots of people and leftover alcohol 21:41 < jonathan_> today's vocabulary word is surface energy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_energy 21:41 < cpopell> :V 21:43 < jonathan_> what 'energy' is given off when two droplets touch each other? 21:43 < jonathan_> i guess it disperses by vibration on the surface or something eh 21:47 -!- davidokner [~davidokne@c-69-143-13-132.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:47 < davidokner> Hi 21:48 < yashgaroth> hello 21:48 < davidokner> I have a medical problem I can't figure out. 21:48 < juri_> so say we all. 21:48 < davidokner> I think it was caused by antibiotics 21:49 < davidokner> This is what happened. 21:49 -!- augur_ [~augur@208.58.5.87] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:49 < davidokner> I had a bad case of myofascial pain syndrome and my message therapist reffered me to a doctor to get tested for any underlying medical conditions that could be perpetuating factors. 21:49 < davidokner> That doctor tested me for Lyme disease and it came back positive, but it was not the standard test. 21:50 < davidokner> I looked into it and found out there was this non-standard lyme disease thing and found another doctor in my area that just treated for that thinking it couldn't hurt to try. 21:50 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:51 < davidokner> Well, he prescribed me three antibiotics Rifampin, Bactrim and Minicyclin and after a couple weeks I started to feel these weird sensations all over my body like snow flakes, bee stings, burning, water drops etc. 21:51 < davidokner> I told the doctor and he said it was just the Lyme disease. After a couple of months of talking to people in that community I decided it was nonsense and stopped going. 21:52 < davidokner> I found out it was neuropathies or paresthesias all over. It lasted for over 6 months after stopping the antibiotics and I went to Johns Hopkins and they said it was probably immune mediated small fiber neuropathy. 21:52 < davidokner> Within a year from that it finally went away and I was happy. THEN, it just came back a week ago when I got a bad cold. 21:52 < davidokner> Now, I have burning paresthesias all over again. 21:53 < davidokner> water, stinging etc 21:53 < davidokner> I think I got really screwed by that doctor. 21:53 < yashgaroth> did you go see another doctor 21:53 < davidokner> I went to the neurologist at Hopkins 21:54 < davidokner> He just said it was immune mediated small fiber neuropathy and discharged me after a negative skin biopsy. 21:54 < davidokner> I didn't review the results with my primary doctor because I couldn't take the stress of it anymore and it finally went away. 21:54 < davidokner> But, now I'm going to my primary doctor to talk about it because it came back. 21:55 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:55 < yashgaroth> I have to ask, why did you choose this channel to ask? 21:55 < davidokner> I asked in my community channel and somebody said I should ask here. 21:56 < davidokner> Oh, he says he met a guy at a conference and knew about this channel. 21:56 < yashgaroth> well I don't think anyone here is a doctor except rigel, but I recommend immunosuppressants 21:56 < davidokner> Yeah, that is what I was thinking the first time. Only problem is that if it has changed my immune system it will just keep coming back if there is a trigger. 21:57 < davidokner> Also, no way to know how long to take them and it is dangerous to take them. 21:57 < yashgaroth> well try aspirin and see if it helps 21:57 < cpopell> there's always metamed if you're wrought with spare cash 21:58 < davidokner> I just googled that. What is that? 21:58 < cpopell> custom medical solution company 21:58 < davidokner> Very expensive I would guess? 21:58 < cpopell> involving a lot from the futurist community 21:58 < yashgaroth> you pay them to pay doctors for their opinions 21:58 < cpopell> I think their lower bound on pricing is like 5k 21:58 < cpopell> you pay them to do a full lit search 21:59 < ParahSail1n> dont push metamed 21:59 < davidokner> All I know is stay away from these Lyme disease doctors. They are quacks and dangerous. 21:59 < davidokner> This has totally scared the hell out of me. 22:00 < yashgaroth> there is a lot of quackery in lyme disease 22:00 < cpopell> ParahSail1n: Despite my best efforts, they aren't paying me to do sales for them :( 22:00 < davidokner> If you guys want to live longer then the best thing for that is a free society. 22:01 < cpopell> let's not do politics 22:01 < davidokner> Medical advancements won't come without the right philosophy as the foundation of a society that can foster those advances. 22:01 < cpopell> especially since plenty of medical advancements are being made 22:01 < davidokner> I have a website that talks about the philosohpy of Western Civilization called Objective Freedom. 22:01 < yashgaroth> oh good 22:02 < cpopell> Oh dear. 22:02 < jonathan_> so do I ! 22:02 < davidokner> oh ok. But that is the most powerful thing I think, the fundimental driver. 22:02 < jonathan_> http://wikipedia.org 22:02 < yashgaroth> great, it's me in here with the channel's three libertarians 22:03 < cpopell> Yashgaroth, I'm not a libertarian :P 22:03 < yashgaroth> uh huh sure 22:03 < davidokner> let me just say I'm not libertarian. 22:03 < cpopell> libertarians don't support mincome 22:03 < cpopell> and don't support invasions >_> 22:03 < jonathan_> david you lost me on this part "my message therapist reffered me to a doctor" 22:04 < davidokner> jonathan_: She told me the name of a doctor I should see to make sure I don't have any health problems that could be causing this. 22:04 < jonathan_> a massage therapist? referral? 22:04 < davidokner> I had already seen tons of doctors who couldn't tell me why I had the previous health problem. 22:04 < davidokner> jonathan_: She gave me his business card or name just like any regular person can. 22:05 < jonathan_> oh 22:05 < jonathan_> how many are "tons" ? 22:05 < davidokner> like 20 or something 22:05 < davidokner> It was just myofascial pain syndrome, but nobody could recognize it. 22:05 < jonathan_> I dont think you mentioned "the previous health problem" 22:06 < davidokner> I didn't. I had many problems from myofascial pain syndrome. 22:06 < davidokner> It is trigger points in the muscles, but it can cause strange symptoms. 22:06 < davidokner> I was getting dizzy, balance problems, pain in neck jaw, random ice pick stabbing in head, vision problems, tinnitus (ringing in the ear). Really bad burning pain between shoulder blades etc. 22:07 < davidokner> It was just a problem with muscles which can be treated and isn't THAT scary if you know what it is. 22:07 < davidokner> But, the new condition I got as a result of being told I have Lyme disease screwed me up. 22:08 < ParahSail1n> so you dont/didn't have lyme? 22:08 < davidokner> No, I never had Lyme. These alternative medcine doctors were just crazy and gave me some auto-immune neurological disease. 22:09 < davidokner> I would have been happy with just the myofascial pain syndrome and treatig that with physical therapy. 22:09 < davidokner> They give you this bogus test and then give you tons of antibiotics, which in my case it looks like it altered my immune system. 22:09 < gradstudentbot> I have to order new primers. 22:10 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:10 < ParahSail1n> did they test serum for antibodies against the species? 22:10 < jonathan_> well. typically when i go to the doctor and they mention I should take something I start asking a lot of deep questions and the doctor quickly asks what I do for a living and I say, "I'm an engineer" and then the doctor sighs and says "Oh." and gives up pushing his non-cure on me. 22:10 < davidokner> Yes, but the test these doctors use is not the scientific valid one. It uses antibodies which are not proven to be evidence of Lyme. 22:11 < ParahSail1n> antibodies against what? 22:11 < ParahSail1n> some borrelia antigen? 22:11 < davidokner> jonathan_: Well when I had been though hell with the symptoms and thought they were telling me the truth I thought it couldn't hurt to see if it worked. 22:11 < davidokner> Yes, and other co-infections too. Bartonella. 22:12 < davidokner> They said I had like at least 2 things. 22:12 < davidokner> It is a very dangerous thing going on with these doctors. It is HUGE with the doctors and the patients community. 22:12 < davidokner> Now I have no way to see exactly what changed my immune system and change it back. 22:13 < davidokner> What I would need to do is verify the proteins in the peripheral nerves and find the antibody for that and then use some un-released technology to retrain my system not to attack that. 22:13 < davidokner> Basically the same thing they are making for people with MS. 22:14 < davidokner> The are going to do just that with MS using nano-particles. 22:15 < ParahSail1n> if you want shady medicine done, this is probably the right place 22:15 < cpopell> that's silly 22:15 < cpopell> that would be biohack.me :P 22:15 < yashgaroth> that's for shady surgery 22:15 < davidokner> I don't want shady medicine done, that is what was done to me. 22:15 < davidokner> http://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis/news/20121115/nanoparticles-show-potential-for-treating-ms 22:16 < yashgaroth> there's a difference between bogus and shady 22:16 < davidokner> That is how they think they could retrain the immune system for MS and use it for any auto-immune disease. 22:16 < davidokner> What I got was bogus and dangerous. 22:16 < davidokner> I just didn't realize how dangerous antibiotics could be. 22:16 < jonathan_> presumably you've tried many probiotics already? 22:17 < davidokner> No, but they never said neuropathy was caused by or could be helped by pro-biotics. 22:17 < davidokner> I'd think that would have regrown by now if that were the problem. 22:18 -!- kmo [~kmo@unaffiliated/kmo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:18 < jonathan_> well isn't it a far simpler solution? 22:19 < jonathan_> and relatively harmless to try I'd assume 22:19 < davidokner> I think they are very safe though. 22:19 < davidokner> Well, I took pro-biotics during the anti-biotics 22:19 < jonathan_> "regrown by now " not sure about that 22:20 < davidokner> The thing driving me crazy is that I don't have answers and everything is just guessing. 22:20 < jonathan_> what's easier.. pursuing some crazy radical medical procedure or eating a bunch of unwashed veggies..? 22:20 <@fenn> try probiotics with l. sporogenes 22:20 < jonathan_> try eating everything.. 22:20 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:20 < jonathan_> you'd love certain circles with fecal transplants lol 22:20 <@fenn> sure why not 22:21 < jonathan_> it's far less risky than some emerging medical stuff only tested on mice or such so far 22:21 < davidokner> I heard about fecal transplants. 22:21 < davidokner> I wonder if that has worked for auto-immune stuff? 22:22 < davidokner> I heard it used for something that was antibiotic resistant. 22:22 < jonathan_> go on a spree and eat everything possible that's fermented 22:22 <@fenn> so, uh, you think antibiotics caused an autoimmune disorder? that doesn't make sense to me 22:23 < davidokner> @fenn: Really? Why not? 22:23 < davidokner> @fenn: Do you think it is immune? 22:23 < davidokner> If it is immune I think it was the anti-biotics. 22:24 < davidokner> I'd be happy if it was something non-immune related. 22:24 <@fenn> so, 1) you have symptoms 2) see a quack doctor 3) take antibiotics 4) develop more symptoms 22:25 <@fenn> it doesn't necessarily mean that your symptoms are caused by the antibiotics, it could just be further progression of the initial disease 22:25 < davidokner> @fenn: I had myofascial pain, that is just trigger points. That doesn't cause body wide paresthesias. 22:25 <@fenn> myofascial pain is a symptom 22:25 < jonathan_> yea 22:25 < davidokner> @fenn: Yes, that is possible, but now I can't say for sure beause I went to the Lyme Doctor. Also, lots of people get TMJ disfunction or neck pain and that is not auto-immune neuropathy early symptom. 22:26 <@fenn> do you have memory problems? 22:26 < davidokner> @fenn: No, my memory is great and I have great energy. 22:26 < davidokner> @fenn: I took minocycline, bactrim and rifampin (the antibiotic for TB) all at the same time. 22:27 < gradstudentbot> Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. 22:27 < jonathan_> reminds me of the dude who had the gum disease and went thru all these rounds of discussions and at the end said " ok but I'm not going to stop smoking " 22:27 < davidokner> Almost right away I developed the paresthesias all over. 22:27 < davidokner> Well, I'm not smoking or doing anything harmfull to my body. 22:28 <@fenn> have you been tested for MS? 22:28 < davidokner> I was tested prior to the paresthesia, but I don't think since. I probably could get tested. 22:29 < davidokner> I was tested for that when I was having the other problems, which turned out to just be caused by trigger points 22:29 < davidokner> Some trigger points cause some pretty alarming things. 22:29 < jonathan_> MRI ? 22:29 < davidokner> I had an MRI back then. I could get another. 22:30 < davidokner> I don't think the Johns Hopkins neurologist thought I needed one at the time. 22:30 < davidokner> Some people with MS have some of the paresthesias I get. 22:31 < davidokner> I've read on forums. But others have them and don't have MS 22:31 < davidokner> I found one person who got it after taking Bactrim. 22:31 < jonathan_> acupuncture? 22:31 < davidokner> No, I won't do that. 22:32 < davidokner> It is random nerve stuff and accupuncture is nonsense anyway. 22:32 <@fenn> hm. acupuncture is sometimes helpful for this sort of peripheral nerve stuff 22:32 < davidokner> Don't let your friends and family fall for this "chronic lyme disease" stuff 22:32 <@fenn> lyme is trivial to diagnose with PCR, either you have it or you don't 22:33 < davidokner> Mine isn't located anywhere specific. It is just random pin pricks all over. 22:33 < jonathan_> seems to me acupuncture is far easier to do as well. even tho it's nonsense. sometimes it works. placebo effect. you dont have to believe it. 22:33 < davidokner> I did something similar to acupuncture for the other condition. It is called Dry Needling. 22:34 < davidokner> So, I've already had that done lots and decided it is not the best treatment for the first condition. 22:34 <@fenn> if you have MS, acupuncture won't help 22:35 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:35 -!- pads is now known as Guest88839 22:36 < jonathan_> assuming you did have lyme disease. where'd you get it from? 22:36 <@fenn> "Using the conventional PCR as the gold standard, the diagnostic sensitivity and specificity for detection of Borrelia burgdorferi was as follows: synovial fluid (98.1%; 100%), whole blood (100%; 100%), and CSF (80%; 100%)." 22:36 < davidokner> You just get it from being outside in grassy or wooded areas from a tick. 22:37 <@fenn> so i guess the problem is if it's Borrelia afzelii or Borrelia garinii 22:37 -!- Burninate [~Burn@pool-108-18-159-219.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:37 < davidokner> This new lyme movement tries to tell you that you get it and you don't always get the symptoms and realize it. 22:37 -!- padz [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:37 < davidokner> Or you think you just have the flu or I don't know. I can't believe I fell for it. I was just hurting bad at the time so I was not thinking clearly. 22:38 < jonathan_> Lupus? 22:38 <@fenn> not thinking clearly is a symptom of MS 22:39 < davidokner> Not like that fenn. I was desperate I mean and if a doctor tells you something they might be right. 22:39 < jonathan_> I think you will be worse if you keep listening to us lol 22:39 < davidokner> I know about lupus. My doctor will hopefully think of that. 22:39 < yashgaroth> I still recommend aspirin, and maybe some black market etanercept 22:39 < davidokner> How does asprin make sense? 22:39 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:39 <@fenn> http://korrektivpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Its-not-lupus-Its-never-lupus.jpg 22:40 < yashgaroth> it's an anti-inflammatory and it's very safe so why not 22:40 <@fenn> davidokner: inflammation is an immune response 22:40 < yashgaroth> also the one disease with more bullshit around it than lyme is lupus 22:40 < davidokner> Its "LDD". "Lyme Doctor Disease". 22:41 < jonathan_> why on earth would lyme disease be a conspiracy of doctors. i thought it always occurred with a rash. 22:41 < jonathan_> period end of story 22:41 < davidokner> There is a real Lyme disease and this new fake one. 22:41 < jonathan_> where do you live? 22:42 < jonathan_> ie are these doctors in major cities etc 22:42 < davidokner> What the chronic Lyme doctors? I'm near DC. 22:43 < davidokner> They are all over the place. I think there are like 4 in my area. 22:43 < davidokner> Just search the internet for 22:43 < davidokner> "LLMD" Lyme Literate MD. That is this new fake Lyme disease. 22:43 < jonathan_> interesting 22:44 < davidokner> People have real health problems some of them and they end up there because the real doctors ignore their patients until they end up going to these quacks who pay attention. 22:44 < davidokner> Like me I had myofascial pain syndrome and the doctors couldn't figure it out or just dismissed it. 22:45 < davidokner> And that is how I ended up going down the wrong path to the disreputable doctor who said I had Lyme Disease. 22:46 * fenn yawns 22:46 < cpopell> david, I'm also DC local 22:46 <@fenn> have you seen any cicadas yet? there are supposed to be billions out right now, but i haven't seen a single one 22:47 < jonathan_> hm, i wonder if you would get a different opinion in canada 22:47 < davidokner> Opinion about Lyme disease or what I have now? 22:48 < davidokner> best places are probably Johns Hopkins and Mayo Clinic. 22:49 < jonathan_> i wonder if you could get metagenomic sequences to find out which probiotics you need. 22:49 < davidokner> Some people are using hook worms for auto-immune. Its a trial 22:49 < davidokner> I think probiotics don't work for that. 22:50 <@fenn> hookworms are worth looking into 22:50 < davidokner> I did read a canada story that said they are synthesizing the feal transplant and it can be customized. 22:50 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50 < davidokner> @fenn: Aparently it suppresses the immune system. But I 22:50 < cpopell> David, what part of DC? 22:50 < davidokner> I'm not quite ready to do that and I don't think it is available. 22:50 < davidokner> Arlington, VA 22:50 <@fenn> relax, it's not like you're doing chemo 22:51 < davidokner> It could be a lot worse. 22:51 < jonathan_> man... that's a convo topic. "which is better a fecal transplant or hookworm therapy?" 22:51 <@fenn> hey i'm in arlington too. near glebe and lee hwy 22:51 < cpopell> ah, I'm in McLean 22:51 < cpopell> oh shit, fenn, you're near me? 22:51 < yashgaroth> fenn what the shit are you doing in dc 22:51 <@fenn> jonathan_: why not both? fecal transplant from someone with hookworm :P 22:51 < davidokner> I could have something they know what it is and it is bad. That is worse 22:51 < jonathan_> jesus now i'm gonna have nightmares 22:51 <@fenn> yashgaroth: wasting away... 22:51 < yashgaroth> heh fair enough 22:51 < davidokner> I'm in Ballston in Arlington. 22:52 < jonathan_> stay away, how do you know you're not contagious 22:52 < davidokner> brb 22:56 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:06 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:07 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:13 < davidokner> Sleep time 23:26 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:30 -!- sivoais [~zaki@unaffiliated/sivoais] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:55 -!- kmo [122@unaffiliated/kmo] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:55 -!- kmo is now known as kajetan --- Log closed Mon Jul 15 00:00:26 2013