--- Log opened Thu Dec 12 00:00:51 2013 00:17 <@kanzure> "On January 1, 2014, a new open-access policy for faculty's scholarly writings will take effect at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech). According to this policy, approved by the faculty at their June 10 meeting, all faculty members will automatically grant nonexclusive rights to the Institute to disseminate their scholarly papers, making wider distribution of their work possible and eliminating confusion about copyright when ... 00:17 <@kanzure> ... posting research results on Caltech's websites. - See more at: http://www.caltech.edu/content/caltech-announces-open-access-policy#sthash.U9aDLdVS.dpuf" 00:17 <@kanzure> ah fucking javascript 00:18 <@kanzure> it was good news up until the javascript insert. now i have to hate them. 00:41 < ParahSailin> looks like you need to add sharethis.com to etc/hosts 00:42 < ParahSailin> and nuke it off the interweb for good measure 01:05 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:07 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:15 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.138.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:16 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:16 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:37 -!- gulliver_foyle_J [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:37 -!- gully_foil_Ja [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:43 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:53 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.138.33] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:24 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:27 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:33 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:38 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.138.33] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 02:48 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:49 -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:49 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.217.76] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:54 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@74.45.112.251] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:56 -!- gulliver_foyle_J [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: has left chat] 03:44 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@74.45.112.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:00 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.152.2] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:11 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-88-7.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:13 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@host-85-30-145-65.sydskane.nu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:13 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@host-85-30-145-65.sydskane.nu] has quit [Changing host] 04:13 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:13 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:14 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:42 -!- ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has quit [Quit: и хате меат] 04:56 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:56 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 04:56 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:57 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-88-7.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:05 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r186-54-94-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:05 -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r186-54-94-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-94-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:18 -!- aelinoea [~aelinoea@a88-113-45-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:09 < justanotheruser> If someone says "30 large", do they mean $30k or $30m? 06:21 < juri_> usually, i'd say $30k. 06:28 < bkero> fallout 1+2+tactics are free on gog today 06:29 < eudoxia> that's not transhumanism 06:31 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:46 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:52 < JayDugger> Good morning, everyone. 06:53 < eudoxia> hello 07:31 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.131.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:55 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:55 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.217.76] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:02 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@75-119-242-248.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:03 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:42 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@75-119-242-248.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/] 08:51 -!- entelechios [~elysium@190.184.196.50] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:08 -!- sandeepkr [~sandeep@117.254.217.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:09 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:10 <@kanzure> openworm "movement validation plans" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sBgMAD-7RUjHwBgrC204LMqSC81byIaZNRm32lEGWMM/edit 09:13 < eudoxia> i wonder how many of the openworm people are h+/uploaders 09:13 <@kanzure> well considering that langton labs makes up a sizable number of its participants, i would say all of them 09:15 < eudoxia> really? i'd imagined they were all more richard jones-y about the prospect 09:17 <@kanzure> most of the openworm people seem to be from academia but that is a meaningless label when you consider davidad etc 09:17 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:17 <@kanzure> eg http://nemaload.davidad.org/ 09:18 <@kanzure> https://github.com/nemaload 09:18 <@kanzure> oh weird https://github.com/nemaload/sigextract 09:18 <@kanzure> pasky: what are you doing in this commit log 09:19 <@kanzure> oh right, pasky was doing openworm things 09:19 <@kanzure> so it would make sense for his work to show up in nemaload stuff 09:25 <@kanzure> saurik: do you know of any images for google glass yet? just want a simple shell 09:26 < pasky> i was working on nemaload for about 6 months this year 09:26 < pasky> it was my main source of income :) 09:26 <@kanzure> how do you know david? 09:26 < pasky> he just got in touch with me out of the blue 09:27 < pasky> "hey, i'm in vienna and i'm looking for a programmer, can i stop by in prague?" 09:27 <@kanzure> you should haunt him until he decides to idle in here regularly 09:27 < pasky> "sorry, i'm in tokyo just right now" 09:27 < pasky> i don't get to talk to him as often as i'd have liked myself, frankly ;-) 09:27 <@kanzure> did he ever tell you how i met him 09:27 < pasky> i don't think so 09:28 <@kanzure> it was like 2004 or something and he was in the news 09:28 <@kanzure> so i sent him an email "HEY we should be friends" 09:28 <@kanzure> and then somehow that happened 09:28 < pasky> lol 09:29 < eudoxia> was that the literal email body? 09:29 <@kanzure> oh it was 2007 hmm 09:30 <@kanzure> no the actual email seems to be this elaborate explanation of how i tracked him down 09:32 <@kanzure> anyway it turns out he also spent som time working with smari mccarthy, who wrote tangiblebit (the skdb look-alike) 09:32 <@kanzure> as part of fablab 09:33 < eudoxia> what a small world we live in 09:34 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/tangiblebit/ 09:35 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/tangiblebit/tree/engines/kokompe/kokompe/README 09:35 < eudoxia> holy shit how many megabytes is this 09:38 < eudoxia> what a shame there isn't a requirements.txt there 09:41 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-54-94-163.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:47 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.217.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:47 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:50 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:51 -!- pads is now known as Guest8807 09:52 -!- Guest54515 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:55 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.216.108] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:02 -!- aelinoea [~aelinoea@a88-113-45-152.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:02 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@75-119-242-248.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:32 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@2001:67c:2190:c0de:b104:97:c8da:129b] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:40 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:41 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:31 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:47 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:54 <@kanzure> scienceexchange just sent out some spam about http://www.ascb.org/ 11:54 <@kanzure> 'american society for cell biology' 12:23 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:23 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:27 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 12:54 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:57 -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@66.233.132.203] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:59 <@nmz787> kanzure: regarding what? i know some folks who have gone to ascb conferences before 13:00 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-33.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:04 <@kanzure> just "the conference exists and science exchange has a person there". typical marketspaz spam. 13:09 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:30 -!- entelechios is now known as cheeseblockeater 13:36 <@nmz787> these are neat http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1872497313002275 13:36 <@nmz787> and this is how they supposedly get away with using sperm from the twins, which I first thought would be too shuffled by crossing-over events during spermatogenesis: http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/3/568 13:38 <@nmz787> basically just using the sperm as a bulk source for developmental mutations in somatic tissues, rather than the stuff generally happening in gametogenesis 13:38 <@nmz787> since the gonads form early or something 13:40 <@nmz787> "Our results give experimental evidence for the hypothesis that rare mutations will occur early after the human blastocyst has split into two, the origin of twins, and that such mutations will be carried on into somatic tissue and the germline." 13:49 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@75-119-242-248.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Nine out of ten l33t h4x0rz prefer it] 13:59 < juri_> interesting. i did not know that. 14:04 -!- rkos_ [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:05 -!- joehot [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:07 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@2001:67c:2190:c0de:b104:97:c8da:129b] has quit [Quit: UAA] 14:07 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:07 -!- Guest8807 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:37 -!- brownies [~brownies@unaffiliated/brownies] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:44 -!- brownies [~brownies@184.106.201.58] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:44 -!- brownies [~brownies@184.106.201.58] has quit [Changing host] 14:44 -!- brownies [~brownies@unaffiliated/brownies] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:44 -!- ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:49 < saurik> kanzure: "images"? 14:51 <@kanzure> saurik: kernel images? things to run on the device? things to make the bootloader load? 14:53 -!- gulliver_foyle_J [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:53 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-33.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:59 < saurik> kanzure: just root it and install a shell 14:59 < saurik> you don't even need to root it for a shell 14:59 < saurik> like,it comes with a shell 15:00 < saurik> (but I'm guessing you wanted more) 15:00 < saurik> (so root it and install a better shell) 15:00 <@kanzure> alright. 15:03 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:08 < juri_> kanzure: can i get your opinion on something? 15:08 < juri_> http://demo1.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/Incentivization 15:10 -!- ivan` [~ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:13 <@kanzure> well, first, your decision to use trac is bizarre and snideworthy 15:14 <@kanzure> the problem statement doesn't make sense to me 15:14 <@kanzure> most of these asic devices double as wonderful rainbow table generators for sha256 passwords 15:16 < juri_> mm. good point. 15:16 <@kanzure> are you trying to find a problem? 15:16 < juri_> no, i'm smelling a problem, and trying to express it. 15:16 < juri_> aparently, i didn't do such a good job. ;) 15:16 <@kanzure> "the bitcoin users are insufficiently interested in free software according to me" 15:17 < juri_> of course they aren't. they're incentivized not to be. 15:17 < juri_> THAT is the problem. the incentive, not the users. 15:17 <@kanzure> because cgminer is fake ? 15:18 < juri_> what do you mean? 15:18 <@kanzure> it looks like free software to me 15:18 <@kanzure> https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer 15:18 < juri_> Ugh. 15:18 < juri_> i thought you were smarter than that. 15:18 < juri_> jesus fucking christ on a goddamned pogo stick. 15:18 < juri_> *sigh* 15:18 <@kanzure> "just because it has a gplv3 license doesn't mean it's free software" ? 15:19 < juri_> "just because its free software, doesn't mean you can use it with the gear you have, which begs, pleads, and basically demands non-free software". 15:19 <@kanzure> i don't think any of those gpl asic designs required proprietary software 15:20 <@kanzure> (i don't know why they were GPL'd though. that doesn't really make sense for hardware designs etc etc.) 15:20 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-148-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:20 < juri_> and, that doesn't lead to a device the users can use to run free sotware. 15:20 <@kanzure> why? 15:20 < juri_> i address that point. 15:20 < juri_> what do you do with a massive SHA256 hash generator? 15:20 < juri_> break passwords? brilliant. what else? 15:21 <@kanzure> i thought we were talking about bitcoin mining. you've lost me. 15:21 < juri_> you know, i wrote a pretty clear paper. i think you're wanting to be lost. :P 15:22 * juri_ sighs. 15:22 < juri_> sorry, i'm just frustratedly trying to communicate something. 15:22 < juri_> what do you do with a bitcoin mining asic when it is no longer profitible to plug it in and mine with it? 15:22 <@kanzure> "to the extreme of an ASIC based approach, where little utility can be derived other than mining" the original purpose wasn't general utility, it was mining.. 15:22 < juri_> your solution was rainbow tables. 15:22 <@kanzure> i don't care what i do with it 15:22 < juri_> do i say it was? 15:23 < juri_> I do. because those are elements we don't get back. fabrication of those chips likely means expensive elements in landfills. 15:23 <@kanzure> it's not a general computing device, it might not even be turing complete etc 15:23 <@kanzure> okay, so this is about waste..? 15:23 < juri_> exactly. that is the point i make. 15:24 < juri_> this is about reuse of the devices themselves to run free software. 15:24 <@kanzure> there are many companies that extract precious metals from old pcbs 15:24 < justanotheruser> juri_: All consumer tech is thrown away after 5 years anyways 15:24 < juri_> because, if users cannot use the computing devices they own to run free software, we the free software community have 'lost'. 15:24 <@kanzure> are you next going to try to reuse a diode to run a free operating system on it? there is a point of diminishing returns where an object is not made up of computronium. 15:24 < juri_> justanotheruser: 95% of my gear is 10+ years old. 15:24 < juri_> justanotheruser: not everyone is in your class bracket. 15:25 <@kanzure> nothing he said was about class brackets, please pay attention 15:25 < juri_> kanzure: consumer. pay attention yourself. some of us are not consumers. 15:25 <@kanzure> huh? 15:25 < justanotheruser> juri_: so you don't own a computer? 15:25 <@kanzure> i'm not sure he called you a consumer 15:26 < juri_> justanotheruser: i own computers built of recycled gear, mostly. and the ones i do own, i purchased outright almost a decade ago. 15:26 < juri_> i repair everything. 15:26 < justanotheruser> I think the only people we can describe as not consumers are amish sustenance farmers 15:26 < juri_> yea, i study how they work. 15:26 <@kanzure> well this conversation devolved fast 15:26 < justanotheruser> yea 15:26 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: please stop 15:26 < justanotheruser> sorry 15:26 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: your ideas are bad and poorly considered 15:26 < justanotheruser> :/ 15:27 <@kanzure> juri_: what is the minimum set of components that you feel have a moral obligation to run free software 15:27 < juri_> actually, i consider them timely, because justanotheruser is.. justanotheruser. 15:27 < juri_> and, that 'attitude' further reinforces my point. 15:27 <@kanzure> i'm not interested in philosophical categorization of consumers 15:27 <@kanzure> we were talking about something completely different 15:27 * juri_ nods. 15:28 < juri_> kanzure: i'm not the one that makes that decision. 15:28 <@kanzure> what does that mean? 15:28 < chris_99> juri_, i haven't read your thing fully yet, but are you advocating something like a POW function that's easily changable, to prevent people using ASICs 15:28 < juri_> chris_99: i am. 15:28 <@kanzure> what! 15:28 <@kanzure> that's not even written on the page 15:29 < chris_99> heh 15:29 < juri_> kanzure: it means that i want a user to be able to use free software on all devices made of 'computronium'. 15:29 -!- ua [~ua@unaffiliated/uniqanomaly] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:29 < juri_> they bring the device. i bring the software. 15:29 <@kanzure> and you consider an asic to be computronium in that sentence 15:29 < justanotheruser> How are those ideas even related? 15:29 < juri_> so, i'm not chosing the size, or flavor of the hardware. the only question i have is: how do i help this user use this hardware to help them? 15:29 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: which ones 15:30 < juri_> and, for asics, thats pretty much "use it to heat your home, or crack passwords". 15:30 < justanotheruser> kanzure: dynamic mining algorithm and being able to use free software 15:30 <@kanzure> juri_: out of curiosity, are you also opposed to other purpose-specific chips 15:30 < juri_> i can't go "run gimp on it! make it emulate a cpu! etc, and provide the user with software for them to do this. 15:30 < juri_> generally, yes. 15:30 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: it incentivizes people to use asics which aren't general purpose or capable of running software, therefore they can't run free software on it 15:31 < eudoxia> but as a coin matures and becomes more specialized, people will develop faster, more specific, and necessarily less general ways to mine them 15:31 <@kanzure> eudoxia: my mining rig is the finest possible, it runs 12 billion instances of lotus 123 15:31 < juri_> exactly. there's not much to do about this, other than use the most complicated (and therefore most likely to require a cpu) algorithms possible. 15:32 < juri_> anything else is incentivizing the user to not run free software, or worse to not even be capable of running free software. 15:33 < juri_> so, bitcoin bad, primecoin good. 15:33 < eudoxia> free software is good and all, but maybe that's actually bad from the user's point of view 15:33 < justanotheruser> Are there any coins that are wont end up having ASICs with sufficient size? Could you not develop an ASIC specifically for finding primes? 15:33 < eudoxia> maybe cryptocoins becoming more specialized and requiring vaster capital investments to setup up mining rigs for is a good thing 15:33 < eudoxia> justanotheruser: exactly. CPUs are general and slow for anything specific. once you know the domain you're working on, you can create an efficient hardware implementation for it 15:34 < juri_> justanotheruser: no, asics will always be the fastest, just by eliminating unnecissary gates. 15:34 < juri_> er. i guess s/no/yes. 15:35 < juri_> therefore, those who care about turing machines being prolific in the world are morally obligated to pick coins with complicated algorithms.. and those who don't mind disposable hardware use bitcoin. 15:35 < justanotheruser> juri_: but these complicated algorithms will be ASICed anyways... 15:36 <@kanzure> will you feel better if there is a general purpose 4-bit chip included in all asics 15:36 < justanotheruser> loll 15:36 < eudoxia> well, maybe there are some algorithms where an efficient hardware implementation wouldn't get much faster than a CPU one 15:36 < chris_99> you can make the system change over time though to prevent ASICs justanotheruser 15:36 < juri_> better? yes. but the incentive is always going to be for that to be the smallest possible, to make room for the actual mining gear. 15:37 <@kanzure> so you are opposed to things like the sha256 die packages; what about other purpose-specific components like ALUs or caches 15:37 < juri_> kanzure: you're right to point out that there is a slippery slope there. i agree with you. 15:37 < justanotheruser> chris_99: how would that be done? Would it be predetermined? If it were, then the ASICs would be made until they were getting ready for the next asic. Is it voted on by the miners? The miners would probably vote to keep their hardware. 15:38 < chris_99> not sure, it couldn't be predetermined though 15:38 < juri_> in fact, i think i'm stating clearly that there is a slope, we are picking positions on it, and it goes from cpu->gpu->fpga->asic, in order of increasing efficiency/decreasing freedom. 15:39 <@kanzure> juri_: i am not trying to point out a slippery slope, i was genuinely wondering about your opinions, jeeze 15:39 <@kanzure> juri_: i haven't decided if i wanted to make a slipper slope argument, either 15:39 < juri_> oh, sorry. ;) 15:39 <@kanzure> *slippery 15:39 < justanotheruser> kanzure: what is your hashrate? 15:39 < juri_> I am opposed to special purpose gear. this represents sliding down that slope. 15:39 <@kanzure> i'm not mining 15:40 <@kanzure> oh wait, i guess i might be, if you squint your eyes i think i own at least 20 GH/s 15:40 < eudoxia> the mining rig thing, i'm fairly sure, was a joke 15:40 < juri_> look at hardware crypto, for instance. whoops, thats implemented in microcode for intel stuffs, and therefore really softwre, that they keep secret from you. 15:40 <@kanzure> but it's through some mining contracts from wayback when 15:40 < juri_> via implemented theirs at the hardware level... but you cannot examine the 'source' of that hardware any more than the intel solution. 15:41 < juri_> so, neither solution are trustable, because they're not implemented on a turing machine, or if they are, they're kept as non-free as possible. 15:42 < eudoxia> well what if you had a FOSS ASIC that you just ran off an assembler/3d printer/whatever 15:42 < eudoxia> or had it built the normal way 15:42 < juri_> that would be completely different. the means of the production would be in the open, and therefore incentivizing those means would bring us all more freedom, through more chip printers. 15:42 <@kanzure> As free software developers, we want users to be able to derive as much freedom and utility as possible through usage of the software we provide. It is therefore in our interests for coin algorithms to incentivize usage and production of mining solutions with the most reuse potential. 15:43 < eudoxia> oh ok 15:43 <@kanzure> oops how did that happen 15:43 <@kanzure> i was walking and not typing 15:43 <@kanzure> :( 15:43 < juri_> kanzure: your walking is as good as my week long tortured paper. hense, why i asked for your opinion. ;P 15:44 < eudoxia> since we're asking kanzure questions: when do you think someone is finally going to get DMS/MNT working? 15:46 <@kanzure> juri_: what are your general opinions about computronium-replacing-most-matter being a good/bad thing to aim for 15:46 <@kanzure> eudoxia: it will be the second satoshi that funds that (kidding) 15:47 < juri_> most matter is computronium, its just on a different system (see, the universe is a hollogram). the real question you're asking is where i stand as far as us controlling said computational abilities. i think all matter in the known universe should be made of computronium. 15:47 <@kanzure> ah now we're getting somewhere.. 15:48 < juri_> kanzure: this is the first thing i'll have written up in a while. how bad is it? ;) 15:49 <@kanzure> pretty bad, you should probably write some opening statements regarding your computronium beliefs 15:49 <@kanzure> maybe not the "convert the entire galaxy" part, but at least the stuff about hating non-computing devices 15:49 <@kanzure> *non-general-purpose computing devices 15:50 < juri_> i take that a bit for granted, given my audience is by definition free software developers. 15:50 < juri_> i'll give it a shot. 15:50 <@kanzure> i doubt most free software developers are motivated by plans to convert the galaxies into grey goo 15:51 < juri_> they aren't? :) 15:51 < juri_> damn. who is? i want to be on that team. ;P 15:51 < eudoxia> if it's not thinking, it isn't working 15:52 < juri_> if its not a turing machine, its not really as useful for free software developers. therefore, down with rocks, up with CPUs. 15:53 < eudoxia> amen 15:55 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:02 <@kanzure> here is what cathal is up to http://www.synbioaxlr8r.com/ 16:04 < chris_99> ooooooh 16:04 < chris_99> that looks fun 16:06 < eudoxia> http://gow.epsrc.ac.uk/NGBOViewGrant.aspx?GrantRef=EP/G007837/1 16:06 < eudoxia> apparently philip moriarty's MNT grant got extended from oct 2013 to march 2014 16:07 < eudoxia> might be good news 16:07 <@kanzure> speaking of moriarty... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17612316/AUDIO/i_have_btc_no_i_wont_link_my_blockchain_lol_noob.mp3?dl=1 16:07 < chris_99> whats that 16:08 <@kanzure> the greatest thing you will ever hear 16:08 < chris_99> haha 16:08 < eudoxia> i'm afraid its going to 0-day my computer and merge it into a bitcoin mining botnet 16:08 < chris_99> lol, who made that 16:11 < justanotheruser> chris_99: says at the beginning 16:11 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-52-148-242.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:12 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 16:22 < chris_99> juri_, so why don't you want ASICs was it because they can't be used for anything other than mining, so will eventually get thrown away 16:34 -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:49 -!- rkos_ [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:52 -!- justanotheruser1 [~andrew@74.45.112.251] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:52 -!- gulliver_foyle_J [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:53 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@75-119-242-248.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:54 -!- Dantespeaks [~Dantespea@75-119-242-248.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.152.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:00 -!- cheeseblockeater [~elysium@190.184.196.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:06 -!- klafka [~klafka@204-16-157-18-static.ipnetworksinc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10 -!- justanotheruser1 [~andrew@74.45.112.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:16 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@utdpat242090.utdallas.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:21 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:22 -!- AshleyWaffle [anastasiaw@unaffiliated/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:24 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.138.225] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:29 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:29 -!- gully_foil_Ja [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:32 -!- AshleyWaffle [anastasiaw@unaffiliated/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:42 -!- AshleyWaffle [anastasiaw@unaffiliated/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:44 -!- AshleyWaffle [anastasiaw@unaffiliated/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:48 < juri_> chris_99: correct. 17:51 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.138.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:53 -!- Adifex [~Adifex@utdpat242090.utdallas.edu] has quit [Quit: Just going out for a swim...] 17:54 < JayDugger> Good evening, everyone. 17:59 -!- AshleyWaffle [anastasiaw@unaffiliated/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 18:08 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.138.225] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:25 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:53 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56 -!- AshleyWaffle [anastasiaw@unaffiliated/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:01 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.131.124] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:31 <@nmz787> I think this is probably a good thing to be on a mass-media site http://mashable.com/2013/09/20/why-you-dont-love-science/ 19:45 -!- drewbug [~Adium@fsf/member/drewbug] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:47 <@kanzure> yeeep "I’d like to point out that the range of postdoc salaries (averaging $30,000 to $60,000) is approximately what a high school teacher makes their first year teaching." 19:49 <@kanzure> iirc high school teachers in nyc make much more than $60k their first year 19:58 -!- gully_foil_Ja [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:03 -!- gully_foil_Ja [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:08 -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-3-129-200.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:22 -!- gully_foil_Ja [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:25 -!- gully_foil_Ja [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:31 < drewbug> Where should somebody interested in doing DIY focused ultrasound neurostimulation start? 20:32 <@kanzure> probably looking at the pcb boards necessary for driving each phase array unit 20:57 < ThomasEgi> or getting the array units. 20:57 < ThomasEgi> drewbug, do you have a number on the resolution that can be achived using ultrasonic stimulation? 20:58 < drewbug> I do not. 20:58 < drewbug> I will look for one. 20:59 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: a few mm^2 20:59 <@kanzure> ThomasEgi: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/ 20:59 < ThomasEgi> kanzure, that seems ways to much for stimulating like a bunch of neurons inside a nerve. 21:00 <@kanzure> oh, it's certainly not going to do single-neuron stimulation 21:00 < ParahSailin> galois field F_{2^m} arithmetic https://github.com/rcallahan/Galois 21:00 <@kanzure> """Using a method of transcranial US brain stimulation with an acoustic collimating tube (d = 2mm), an estimate of the volume of cortical activation maybe =~ 3 mm^3 as indicated by c-fos activity (Figure 15). The 1.5-2.0 mm lateral area of activation observed represents a more reliable measure and is approximately five times better than the =~ 1cm lateral spatial resolution offered by transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) (Barker, 1999). ... 21:00 <@kanzure> ... Due to the millimeter spatial resolutions conferred by US, structured US fields may be used to drive patterned activation in sparsely distributed brain circuits. Similarly, focusing with acoustic meta-materials (having a negative refractive index) enables subdiffraction spatial resolutions to be achieved for US (Zhang et al., 2009). Brain regions <1.0 mm may be accurately targeted for neurostimulation using 0.5 MHz US. Such spatial scales ... 21:00 <@kanzure> ... make transcranial US for brain stimulation amenable to a variety of research and clinical applications.""" 21:00 <@kanzure> see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/notes.txt 21:03 <@kanzure> <1mm is sorta vague i wonder how much smaller 21:04 < ThomasEgi> that's some good information. unfortunately the method doesn't look very promising for my problem tho. 21:04 <@kanzure> wait, what? weren't we answering a drewbug question? 21:04 < ThomasEgi> i highjacked the question a bit^ sry bout that 21:04 <@kanzure> oh i see 21:04 <@kanzure> what is your question? 21:05 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.216.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:05 < ThomasEgi> how to best stimulate the optic nerve at the highest possible resolution. 21:05 <@kanzure> is surgery allowed 21:06 < ThomasEgi> so far, my ideas are still bound to regular multi-electrode arrays. altho as stacked sets of blades. with each blade having several dozens of electrodes on it. 21:06 < ThomasEgi> yeah. surgery should be ok 21:06 < ThomasEgi> my rough estimates indicate that getting a 64x64 array into the optic nerve would be somewhat possible. 21:07 <@kanzure> what is wrong with ultrasound in this case? the coverage area would be larger than you need, but i don't see this as problematic? 21:07 < ThomasEgi> the nerve is about 3mm diameter. 21:07 < ThomasEgi> and if ultrasonic can stimulate a 1.5 to 2mm region.. that'd be very far from my target 21:09 <@kanzure> tell me more things about this 21:09 < ThomasEgi> my ultimate goal would be to come up with an idea to realize a 160x144 electrode array that connects to the optic nerve. 21:09 < ThomasEgi> which is (fully intended) the original gameboy resolution. 21:10 < ThomasEgi> but it also makes a decent replacement for an eye in case you go blind. and.. i know people who will go blind in the next years. 21:11 < ThomasEgi> as for the time speaking. i currently have one electrode output working and tested (not on the optic nerve tho, just my arm). 21:11 < ThomasEgi> an 8 electrode circuit is waiting to be tested. 21:13 < ThomasEgi> biggest issues by far is the mechanical design. getting the electrodes into the nerve without destroying either. 21:13 < ThomasEgi> are you aware of any way to break apart connective tissue of a nerve without damaging the nerve itself? 21:14 <@kanzure> superkuh: maybe you do.. 21:23 -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:33 -!- drewbug [~Adium@fsf/member/drewbug] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:35 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.138.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:38 -!- drewbug [~Adium@fsf/member/drewbug] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:38 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6164/1367.full 21:38 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Exonic%20Transcription%20Factor%20Binding%20Directs%20Codon%20Choice%20and%20Affects%20Protein%20Evolution.pdf 21:43 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@117.254.216.108] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:43 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@74.45.112.251] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:48 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@74.45.112.251] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:59 -!- drewbug [~Adium@fsf/member/drewbug] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:02 -!- justanotheruser [~andrew@95.211.149.213] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:08 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:10 -!- gully_foil_Ja [~theghost2@pool-96-238-223-3.snfcca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:22 -!- padz [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:22 -!- joehot [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:35 -!- rkos [~rkos@net-93-148-49-46.cust.dsl.teletu.it] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:11 -!- lichen_ [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:13 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] --- Log closed Fri Dec 13 00:00:52 2013