--- Log opened Sun Mar 30 00:00:18 2014
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07:16 < streety> new word of the day: grift
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08:22 < heathjs> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed084p1647?journalCode=jceda8
08:22 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20Chemical%20Composition%20of%20Maple%20Syrup.txt
08:24 < kanzure> maple syrup may be chemically iredducible
08:24 < kanzure> irreducible
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08:43 < heathjs> i wouldn't mind acquiring @heath on twitter, but people don't use twitter correctly: https://twitter.com/search?q=%40heath&src=typd
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08:47 < streety> don't use twitter correctly . . . as in don't use it?
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11:56 < kanzure> ParahSailin: apparently jackson labs wont sell to non-institutional people
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14:16 < kanzure> i think i'm gonna have to figure out how to do mental rsa arithmetic. life just doesn't feel complete.
14:17 < kanzure> https://testnet.counterwallet.co/# web wallet for counterparty
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15:50 < poppingtonic> Strangecoin seems like a fun idea.
15:50 < kanzure> why does this show my email as a child to michel bauwen's last post? https://lists.ourproject.org/pipermail/p2p-foundation/2014-March/thread.html
15:50 < kanzure> poppingtonic: http://www.blockscan.com/assetinfo.aspx?q=KANZURE
15:54 < poppingtonic> kanzure: what am I looking at?
15:54 < kanzure> well, instead of a single strangecoin currency, why not one per person
15:54 < kanzure> (or, rather, at least one per person in the network (possibly more))
15:55 < kanzure> this is just some stuff operating on top of the bitcoin blockchain using http://counterparty.co/
15:55 < poppingtonic> Neat
15:57 < poppingtonic> kanzure: your email tipped me off to discuss this here, actually. I lurk ExI.
15:58 < kanzure> ah okay. i was going to reply to that one guy, but his email was boring and now i don't care.
15:59 < kanzure> this one- https://cpunks.org//pipermail/cypherpunks/2014-March/004077.html
15:59 < kanzure> he seems to think i wrote all the quoted text
15:59 < kanzure> even though i clearly had docstrings everywhere
15:59 < poppingtonic> For a second I thought so as well, but I noticed the quotes.
16:01 < kanzure> "This seems incredibly complex and described in an even more complex way, but I think you could accomplish most of the good from this proposal by having an infinity of potential instruments, issued by individuals, with the market sorting out the meaning -- e.g. PG General Liability IOUs trade independently of rdl general liability ious which trade differently from rdl newproject equity."
16:01 < kanzure> from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494709
16:01 < kanzure> but i think that's sort of what already happens anyway
16:03 < poppingtonic> Would I be correct in drawing an analogy with the evolution of company valuation in subsequent stages of investment?
16:05 < kanzure> what is the other side of your analogy?
16:10 < poppingtonic> According to a class I took, whenever an investment round is announced, a number of shares are decided upon, whose value depends on the required investment itself. The valuation is usually 10x the investment amount in tech companies. Then the shares are divided according to the investment agreement made.
16:11 < kanzure> yeah, that's the side you mentioned for your analogy, but there are two sides to an analogy
16:11 < kanzure> i'm asking about the other one?
16:11 < poppingtonic> Connecting it to Strangecoin?
16:12 < kanzure> yeah
16:12 < kanzure> or whatever it is we're talking about
16:13 < kanzure> early-stage company valuation is a huge problem because these folks actually use totally hairbrained algorithms that make no sense
16:13 < kanzure> they have no basis in reality like growth rate, number of users, etc., it's just MSCPP stuff or other weirdness
16:15 < poppingtonic> Well, if we use your concept, where every one has their currency, people could endorse other people's currencies with x amounts of their own currency. Since it's infinite, we have a (not necessarily universal) period of time, maybe called a "cycle", during which people interact. After that period ends, a person gets to decide whether or not to continue endorsing another person's currency. Think of it as a relationship-based reputation
16:15 < poppingtonic> sceme.
16:15 < poppingtonic> *scheme
16:17 < kanzure> why would there be an end to the period?
16:20 < kanzure> unfortunately you can't take much meaning from "the number of bitcoin addresses that hold shares" because anyone can create any number of addresses and send shares to them
16:20 < kanzure> so using the count of the number of addresses as a method of calculating reputational interest by others is not going to work
16:21 < poppingtonic> Maybe a new abstraction is in order
16:23 < kanzure> or maybe just don't use the count as a metric
16:23 < poppingtonic> What would be a suitable metric?
16:23 < kanzure> maybe there is no metric :)
16:23 < kanzure> why not just have a bunch of different currencies?
16:25 < poppingtonic> How do they interact?
16:25 < poppingtonic> s/do/would
16:26 < kanzure> would they have to? i don't know what you're asking
16:26 < kanzure> for example, in counterparty you can trade assets for each other. does that count ?
16:27 < poppingtonic> All they need is a platform to do so, right? Which counterparty serves if I understand the protocol, on a cursory reading.
16:28 < kanzure> nod
16:28 < poppingtonic> I think it counts, yes.
16:29 < kanzure> another thing that i've been meaning to implement in counterparty is a co-op where any payments made to the co-op are paid out proportionally to the employee-shareholder-owners
16:29 < kanzure> as a dividend
16:29 < kanzure> i know that revenue is not profit, but it's still an interesting idea to have a way to split up money immediately as soon as the customer does the transaction
16:31 < poppingtonic> Say, how would a dashboard for that look?
16:32 < kanzure> https://testnet.counterwallet.co/#
16:33 < ParahSailin> kanzure: i thought jojack was cool enough to be called by a nickname
16:33 < kanzure> what about it?
16:33 < poppingtonic> Counterparty would work because of the one-source, one-destination rule
16:33 < kanzure> ParahSailin: did he blow up somewhere?
16:33 < ParahSailin> jackson labs is jojack?
16:33 < kanzure> nope
16:33 < kanzure> jackson labs is where you buy mice
16:33 < kanzure> large mouse supplier
16:34 < poppingtonic> (large mouse) supplier
16:34 < kanzure> i mean.. a large supplier of mice
16:34 < kanzure> right
16:34 < kanzure> well.. no.
16:34 < ParahSailin> anyway, mice would not do any good in this case
16:34 < ParahSailin> unless its a mouse that happens to have humanized antigen
16:34 < kanzure> wasn't suggesting that- but i could imagine future projects that do require mice
16:34 < bkero> 4/win 87
16:35 < kanzure> if i end up having to run my own mouse farm i'm gonna be really annoyed
16:35 < kanzure> maybe i'll train them to do tricks
16:36 < kanzure> http://www3.uca.edu/iqzoo/Media/PDF/Manual/manual12.pdf
16:37 < kanzure> poppingtonic: would you like some of my shares? i just need your bitcoin address. also it must be an address that you control the private keys for (e.g., web wallets usually don't show you the private keys).
16:37 < poppingtonic> maybe genome them to have their fur draw aug-reality markers on their backs, then build gigantic mazes for fps games?
16:38 < ParahSailin> whats our favorite rice professor up to these days
16:38 < kanzure> probably getting hosed by grant writing
16:38 < poppingtonic> sec
16:38 < ParahSailin> find some way to indebt him to you
16:38 < kanzure> blackmail?
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16:43 < poppingtonic> kanzure: does it need to have bitcoin?
16:45 < poppingtonic> kanzure: 18HojXGeBZDaKe1XtNgk79vBej6A4WQmJp
16:47 < kanzure> nope it does not
16:47 < kanzure> just make sure you have your private key available for the future to use it
16:49 < kanzure> txid: 75177b31299debd120bfa50a0fa2a98d737c5cae8073ce8260aaa2de29dcddbf
16:50 < kanzure> https://blockchain.info/en/tx/75177b31299debd120bfa50a0fa2a98d737c5cae8073ce8260aaa2de29dcddbf
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17:02 < poppingtonic> Confirmed. I should check this out on the testnet.
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17:03 < drazak> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v372/n6506/pdf/372519a0.pdf
17:03 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2F372519a0
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17:16 < kanzure> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=806707
17:16 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F800221.806707
17:18 < poppingtonic> i had a fun weekend of SF. Ready Player One & Sun of Suns.
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17:25 < kanzure> 16:04 < maaku> jaekwon: start with this : http://macs.citadel.edu/rudolphg/csci604/ImpossibilityofConsensus.pdf
17:25 < kanzure> 16:06 < jaekwon> no, no. that paper has restrictive priors that don't apply to what we can build, namely, that all processes are deterministic.
17:25 < kanzure> 16:06 < jaekwon> see counter: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=806707
17:25 < kanzure> 16:06 < jaekwon> intuitively, if that paper were correct, pow wouldn't work either.
17:25 < kanzure> 16:09 < maaku> no pow works because the economic restriction provided by the 2nd law : even though you can't know you're in the consensus set, you can put a raw economic cost on the probability of you being tricked
17:25 < kanzure> 16:09 < maaku> pow *fixes* the problem pointed out by this paper
17:25 < kanzure> 16:29 < maaku> sipa, jaekwon: my physics-based understanding of bitcoin is that uses work to tie bitcoin consensus to a fundamentally scarce resource: entropy
17:25 < kanzure> 16:30 < maaku> it is possible to use other physically scarce resource instead, but there is no alternative with the universal scarcity of entropy
17:25 < kanzure> 16:35 < gmaxwell> An interesting observation is that if we had a true strong publically verifyable captcha— so that a human had to mine— you're still ultimately turning energy into proofs  (e.g. instead you could mine by having baby farms where you turn out more people to solve the captchas. :) )
17:26 < kanzure> 16:37 < gmaxwell> but bitcoin itself solved an impossible problem by relaxing some constraints, so perhaps there are relaxations or changes that are just as useful but make other things work.
17:26 < kanzure> 16:41 < maaku> i could be an AI trapped in a simulation with no knowledge of the outside world other than the foundational laws of physics, and from that be able to assert the validity of proof-of-work
17:27 < poppingtonic> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=806707
17:28 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F800221.806707
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18:28 < kanzure> information theoretic perspective of autonomy http://ehu.es/ias-research/autonomy/doc/bertschinger_revision.pdf
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19:02 < poppingtonic> Section 3.1, condition 1.
19:03 < poppingtonic> problems with equation (5) as a condition for non-heteronomy
19:03 < poppingtonic> kanzure: how far along are you in that paper?
19:04 < kanzure> uh somehow i am reading wittgenstein and learning how terrible he is at biology
19:04 < kanzure> "The case would be like the following — certain kinds of plants multiply by seed, so that a seed always produces a plant of the same kind as that from which it was produced — but nothing in the seed corresponds to the plant which comes from it;"
19:04 < kanzure> http://inamidst.com/stuff/witt/process
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19:06 < kanzure> so in conclusion, i got distracted or stopped reading it (i forget if i finished it)
19:06 < ParahSailin> tractatus?
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19:06 < kanzure> pardon?
19:07 < ParahSailin> wittgenstein
19:07 < kanzure> no idea, this seems to be notes
19:07 < kanzure> anyway, this is the first i've read anything from him and so far i hate him
19:07 < kanzure> it seems wrong to assume that seeds have nothing to do with plants
19:08 < kanzure> even in the absence of evidence of dna
19:08 < poppingtonic> I've wanted to finish Tractatus for the longest time.
19:08 < ParahSailin> no philosophy
19:08 < kanzure> in this case i agree
19:09 < poppingtonic> ParahSailin: do you mean that he had no philosophy of it?
19:10 < ParahSailin> channel rules are no philosophy and no reddit
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19:11 < kanzure> poppingtonic: the reason is because everyone is awful at philosophy
19:11 < kanzure> poppingtonic: sometimes i let some slip through if it is good otherwise i get out the ban hammer
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19:12 < poppingtonic> oh, right. cool. i agree, it's very easy for discussions to death-spiral into meaningless drivel.
19:12 < kanzure> also as you can imagine this channel attracts a more-than-fair share of philoso-wackos
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19:16 < cluckj> hah
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19:50 < kanzure> cluckj: want some shares? see above instructions
19:52 < AshleyWaffle> kanzure: Hi :)
19:52 < kanzure> yes?
19:52 < AshleyWaffle> I'm Ashley. I think we met last night
19:52 < AshleyWaffle> So what shares thing?
19:52 < kanzure> we met 2013-04-06
19:52 < kanzure> i've known you for at least a year
19:53 < AshleyWaffle> Oh yeah, I was in here before
19:53 < AshleyWaffle> Well you know what I mean
19:53 < kanzure> that's a big difference from meeting you last night.. just saying.
19:53 < AshleyWaffle> I don't think we've introduced before
19:53 < AshleyWaffle> How do you even get numbers like that so fast, anyway?
19:53 < kanzure> i have this giant database where i stalk everyone i've ever met
19:53 < AshleyWaffle> Haha
19:54 < AshleyWaffle> I believe you
19:54 < AshleyWaffle> So anyway, what shares thing?
19:54 < kanzure> and i write down every time i speak with them so that i don't have to keep all of that in memory
19:54 < kanzure> http://www.blockscan.com/assetinfo.aspx?q=KANZURE
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19:54 < AshleyWaffle> So how do I get some of them shares?
19:55 < kanzure> you would give me a bitcoin address (and make sure you have the private key somewhere that you can get to it later for signing transactions)
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19:55 < AshleyWaffle> kanzure: I assume the electrum client works?
19:55 < kanzure> haven't used that one
19:55 < kanzure> probably yes
19:56 < kanzure> as long as you can get the private key for the address out of the system. web wallets are especially bad at this.
19:56 < AshleyWaffle> PMed sir, thank you :)
19:56 < AshleyWaffle> And yeah it has a sign feature
19:57 < kanzure> not what i mean
19:58 < AshleyWaffle> kanzure: so what do I do now?
19:58 < kanzure> realistically: (1) you wait for the transaction to clear, and then (2) you wait around for counterwallet to get released so that you can use these shares (may be a few weeks until it's ready to be released)
19:59 < AshleyWaffle> cool, so what's counter-wallet?
19:59 < kanzure> counterwallet is just a ui around the counterparty api
19:59 < AshleyWaffle> What's counterparty?
19:59 < kanzure> it's how i am distributing shares on top of bitcoin
19:59 < kanzure> https://github.com/PhantomPhreak/counterparty
20:00 < poppingtonic> http://topologicalmedialab.net/xinwei/classes/readings/Maturana/autopoesis_and_cognition.pdf
20:01 < poppingtonic> Related to the autonomy and information theory paper.
20:01 < AshleyWaffle> kanzure: so what is your stock thing?
20:01 < kanzure> mad science
20:01 < cluckj> kanzure, shares in what?
20:02 < kanzure> probably my income, but i haven't decided yet. e.g. i may pay out dividends from my income.
20:04 < cluckj> o_O
20:05 < JayDugger> Do you make an open offer?
20:05 < kanzure> well right now i'm giving them away
20:05 < kanzure> because i want the network to be seeded with people that i like rather than people who happen to have money to buy them from me
20:06 < kanzure> or at least, i want it to be seeded based on people with similar goals or interests in a way that might positively increase the value of the shares anyway
20:07 < cluckj> O_o
20:09 < kanzure> http://simondlr.com/post/70089813484/in-the-future-everyone-will-have-their-own
20:09 < kanzure> http://simondlr.com/post/70401514502/announcing-simoncoin-worlds-first-individual
20:09 < kanzure> http://ml.sun.ac.za/2013/12/18/cryptocurrencies-as-public-shareholding/
20:11 < kanzure> anyway if i create value as a person then why not create shares to represent that value
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20:13 < cluckj> if I own shares in you that kinda makes you my slave tho
20:14 < kanzure> how is that slavery?
20:14 < kanzure> btw these are non-voting ;)
20:14 < AshleyWaffle> kanzure: wouldnt it be more accurate to say that everyone will have their own stock?
20:15 < kanzure> depends on what you mean by will.... by force?
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20:19 < cluckj> hmm
20:20 < cluckj> I can't say that I'm down for the commoditization of people
20:20 < kanzure> but you're willing to get paid on the job?
20:21 < poppingtonic> This isn't a vote, but you could set up a DAC while you're at it
20:21 < cluckj> I don't really have a choice in that
20:21 < kanzure> you don't have a choice about being paid?
20:21 < juri_> sure you do.
20:21 < kanzure> you could just.. not get a job?
20:22 < cluckj> :P
20:22 < kanzure> contentious objector, eh?
20:22 < juri_> i work all of the time. sometimes, people pay me, but i consider it a 'donation' system.
20:22 < cluckj> I have to eat and stuff
20:22 < kanzure> *conscientous objector
20:22 < kanzure> *conscientious objector
20:22 < cluckj> yeah
20:23 < poppingtonic> Muskcoin, anyone?
20:24 < kanzure> not if it's based on mining
20:24 < poppingtonic> Carmackcoin
20:24 < cluckj> bryanbucks
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20:27 < kanzure>  /win 547
20:27 < kanzure> /win 5
20:27 < kanzure> djflkadfjlkad
20:27 < poppingtonic> Hofstadtercoin
20:27 < kanzure> are you just saying random names and attaching the word coin?
20:28 < poppingtonic> I'm thinking of people with high nerd karma.
20:28 < Qfwfq> sed 's/$/coin/' /usr/share/dict/words
20:29 < poppingtonic> simon says (heh) something about someone's ability to generate network effects being the potential value of their personal coin. e.g. Mandela.
20:29 < cluckj> so what you're trying to do is create a kind of currency based on your social network?
20:29 < cluckj> pegged to bitcoin?
20:30 < kanzure> it's not pegged to bitcoin, it just uses bitcoin as the distribution mechanism
20:30 < kanzure> specifically it uses the bitcoin network or protocol
20:31 < cluckj> like kudos?
20:31 < kanzure> is this another bitcoin thing i'm not aware of?
20:32 < cluckj> no, it's a corporate feedback thing
20:33 < kanzure> is it as bad as klout was?
20:33 < cluckj> oh
20:33 < cluckj> I was thinking of klout
20:33 < cluckj> yeah...
20:33 < kanzure> social media reputation thing, then :)
20:33 < kanzure> "get kickbacks and money for spamming your users with our bullshit" "it's easy and free!"
20:33 < cluckj> yes
20:36 < kanzure> cluckj: http://digitalinterface.blogspot.com/2014/03/strangecoin-proposal-for-nonlinear.html
20:36 < kanzure> cluckj: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7494709
20:43 < cluckj> hm
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21:00 < kanzure> stieruridir: same offer goes to you btw
21:00 < stieruridir> What, spamming people to make money?
21:01 < kanzure> i take it you have an opinion you want to share
21:01 < stieruridir> No, it's just not something I usually do. I'm bad at being active on social media much
21:02 < kanzure> huh?
21:02 < kanzure> i'm not talking about klout. are you?
21:02 < stieruridir> I'M CONFUSED. What was the offer?
21:02 < kanzure> shares
21:02 < kanzure> http://www.blockscan.com/assetinfo.aspx?q=KANZURE
21:03 < stieruridir> Hm, might be interesting, though I've never touched bitcoin in the slightest.
21:03 < stieruridir> or any *coin
21:03 < kanzure> what's the point of all your technology prediction whatevers if you don't bother to.. hrm i don't even know how to word
21:04 < stieruridir> I stay away from IT and stuff mostly. Also, right now, I'm mostly getting paid freelance to write market reports
21:05 < stieruridir> working on my marketable skills, trying to snag a job in Seattle or something doing BI
21:05 < kanzure> bi?
21:05 < stieruridir> business intelligence
21:05 < stieruridir> I'd prefer business consulting but meh.
21:06 < stieruridir> Right now I'm applying at Tableau
21:10 < stieruridir> Anyway, you do have a point, and free shares is something worth actually poking at bitcoin at.
21:10 < stieruridir> *for
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22:55 < kanzure> finally a version of threes/2048/numberwang made for me: http://games.usvsth3m.com/2048/super-yamcha-edition/
22:57 < dingo> ha
22:57 < dingo> i liked the numberwang
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23:01 < dingo> somebody made a terminal version based on my python library 'blessed', https://github.com/polyphemus/macht
23:01 < ParahSailin> kanzure: pm
23:01 < kanzure> ParahSailin: saw it
23:02 < kanzure> and replied
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--- Log closed Mon Mar 31 00:00:20 2014