--- Log opened Thu Apr 10 00:00:34 2014
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05:20 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v20/n1/full/nm.3447.html
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07:44 < kanzure> "OK guys, we're going to design systems whose math and rules stand on their own such that every actor and user can't be evil [except for highly narrowly constrained definitions of evil]."
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08:02 < HarbingerOfGrool> its p simple to redifine 'evil' as nesseccery
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08:39 < kanzure> http://coq.inria.fr/distrib/current/stdlib/
08:39 < kanzure> "Coq is a formal proof management system. It provides a formal language to write mathematical definitions, executable algorithms and theorems together with an environment for semi-interactive development of machine-checked proofs."
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08:43 < eudoxia> and here's a browser verified with it http://goto.ucsd.edu/quark/
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08:59 < eudoxia> i think eleitl wants to upload a snail
08:59 < eudoxia> http://www.reddit.com/r/neuroscience/comments/22ov1t/recording_from_l_stagnalis_with_a_spikerbox/
09:00 < kanzure> he probably wants to upload many things
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09:00 < eudoxia> well, yes
09:02 < kanzure> i'm showing him http://code.google.com/p/neurorighter/
09:02 < kanzure> but spikerbox is probably easier and cheaper anyway
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09:03 < kanzure> yikes "I'm taking a long vacation from things online, including email and irc."
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09:05 < kanzure> "Could be a permanent one, though I highly doubt that."
09:05 < eudoxia> for some reason i'd expect people to ditch reddit before email
09:05 < kanzure> "Nothing physical, more mental. The lab closure and resulting long term plans has made me reexamine some things."
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09:06 < archels`> kanzure: this from eleitl?
09:06 < kanzure> yes
09:06 < archels`> oh, sorry to hear they closed the lab
09:07 < kanzure> "Oh, our main prospective investor bailed, I gave notice end December, the lab is vacated since end March."
09:07 < eudoxia> that was his cryonics group?
09:08 < kanzure> i think so yes
09:11 < archels`> I wonder if crowdfunding would be successful for this sort of thing
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09:12 < archels`> the community of potential backers might be quite small
09:12 < kanzure> i don't think crowdfunding would work here
09:13 < kanzure> i'm not completely sure that money is the underlying problem
09:13 < archels`> money is always the problem
09:13 < eudoxia> starting a new cryo org in such a small market is, how do you say it, "spreading too thin"
09:13 < kanzure> there are many large-scale structural problems regarding the science industries
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09:13 < kanzure> hell, people have trouble ordering their pcr master mix in the first place
09:14 < kanzure> and then when you might need some outsourced service like from scienceexchange you're unlikely to get it unless you're a registered company in a biology-zoned region of your city
09:14 < kanzure> oddly enough, the low cost of biotech labor plays in your favor, if you have money in the first place
09:15 < archels`> kanzure: are you talking about legislatory barriers for biotech?
09:16 < kanzure> the other half of the problem is that the majority of the funding for anything transhumanist ends up at weird non-profit institutions that died 20 years ago
09:16 < kanzure> well, wait, i don't know if i should care about the misallocation of philanthropical dollars
09:16 < archels`> at least working outside academia means fewer ethics committees to deal with
09:16 < kanzure> ("oh no, people are burning money, what a tragedy".. bleh. who cares.)
09:17 < kanzure> well, not necessarily legislation, but there's definitely regulatory weirdness in a number of inconvenient places like the federal death administration
09:19 < kanzure> what should have happened is that 20 years ago someone should have given eugen leitl a blank check to just hang out and do whatever the fuck he wanted
09:19 < kanzure> same with anders sandberg before he turned to the dark side
09:19 < archels`> haha
09:19 < eudoxia> maybe anders can be bought back to the good side
09:20 < kanzure> he's pretty content with where he's at
09:20 < archels`> he still makes it a point to say "I'm not really a philosopher", so there's hope
09:20 < eudoxia> do you pronounce eugen like "eugen", because i saw it spelt that way in some mailing lists
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09:20 < eudoxia> like "eugene"*
09:20 < kanzure> i don't pronounce it at all
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09:20 < kanzure> i think i've never pronounced his name
09:21 < eudoxia> well what if you talk about him to someone IRL
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09:21 < kanzure> i'd probably just call him leitl :)
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09:22 < kanzure> i think i went for about 6 years without ever pronouncing kanzure
09:22 < kanzure> nobody ever asked and i never had a reason to utter it
09:23 < archels`> Oy-gen, afaik
09:23 < kanzure> i think that he was using eugene back in the 90s and early 2000s
09:23 < archels`> g as in grass
09:24 < eudoxia> oh like euler, makes sense
09:24 < kanzure> eugen is probably pronounced eugene ("you jean")
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09:24 < kanzure> or like eugene, oregon
09:24 < FourFire> who is anders sandberg, and why is he evil?
09:24 < archels`> eudoxia: yeah
09:24 < delinquentme> my jean
09:24  * delinquentme made contributions today
09:25 < kanzure> anders sandberg was a transhumanist who was on an interesting mission for the longest time
09:25 < kanzure> he worked on a bunch of nematode neuron uploading projects
09:25 < kanzure> knew his way around software
09:25 < kanzure> and then he decided to join the dark forces and become nick bostrom's coffee bitch
09:26 < FourFire> "Can- Zuureh" (rhymes with 'Lamb-sure')
09:26 < kanzure> what is the h for?
09:26 < FourFire> skip the h
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09:26 < eudoxia> i always used "can soo reh" but i guess you could pronounce it "can sure"
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09:27 < FourFire> so, what he was making headway, uploading one of the simplest neural networks, and the quit?
09:27 < eudoxia> he became a philosopher
09:27 < eudoxia> and the only pro-transhumanist bioethicist
09:27 < kanzure> he was already somewhat of a philosopher but then he decided that his time should be focused on problems of simulation arguments
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09:27 < kanzure> http://www.aleph.se/Nada/
09:28 < FourFire> so, protranhumanists disagree with his decision, because the population of people making headway in the field is smaller than existing philosphers?
09:28 < kanzure> haha he he has eleitl in his silly quote collection http://www.aleph.se/Nada/Quotes/posthuman
09:29 < nsh> (philosophers don't make headway, they make headroom)
09:29 < eudoxia> i didn't see those
09:29 < kanzure> "(it is considered Seriously Bad Table Manners trying to convert the Rest of the Universe into Self. (Nonself into Self. The ultimative act of cannibalism. Critters would like it.). It might not like it, and bite back. Big teeth. Piranha soup.)"  - eleitl
09:30 < eudoxia> "but who thinks about the initial grain of sand or
09:30 < eudoxia> encapsulated parasite if one sees a large, perfect pearl?  "
09:30 < FourFire> why is the electrical symbol for transistors so widespread in Transhumanist/futurist sites from the 90s?
09:30 < kanzure> "Does it really make so much difference if our children are made of silicon and steel?" - Hal Finney <hal@rain.org>
09:30 < kanzure> ah right, i forgot that hal and anders are probably close homies
09:32 < kanzure> http://www.aleph.se/Nada/Quotes/crypto
09:32 < kanzure> "The notion that an anonymous posting needs to be traceable to its source is a product of the unification of the old time conservative desire to squelch free speech with the new fangled politically correct liberal desire to squelch free speech." - pmetzger
09:32 < eudoxia> heh
09:32 < kanzure> FourFire: that was probably a product of the size of the web
09:33 < kanzure> FourFire: like how everyone's site looked like a weird acid trip
09:33 < FourFire> right, the internet was much much smaller back then
09:33 < FourFire> it seems sort of sad that from what I've found, there's no New, Good transhumanist sites
09:34 < FourFire> just sensationalist reddit level blather like io9 and NextGreatWeb orwhatever
09:34 < kanzure> shrug, there's some content here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/
09:34 < kanzure> eudoxia was trying to make a competing wiki i think
09:34 < FourFire> I haven't been able to locate the modern equivalent of SL4
09:34 < eudoxia> http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Main_Page shameless plu- oh what the hell
09:34 < FourFire> maybe because it's still sorta active?
09:35 < kanzure> you really think you can out type me, eudoxia? :grin:
09:35 < kanzure> sl4 is not active
09:35 < eudoxia> what a coincidence, i was thinking about merging the transhumani wiki into the diyhpluswiki
09:35 < kanzure> this channel is the closest you're going to get
09:35 < eudoxia> i SERIOUSLY hope cpopell has a backup of this
09:36 < kanzure> eudoxia: i've been doing some xml transformation of the p2pfoundation wiki into a git repository (just a few more tweaks left)
09:36 < kanzure> eudoxia: if you'd like, i could do the same to transhumani and then merge it into diyhpluswiki.git
09:36 < eudoxia> kanzure: so i heard
09:36 < kanzure> i've also been meaning to do the same to en.bitcoin.it and reprap's wiki.. oof.
09:36 < kanzure> for some reason it's still a highly manual process even after writing all this terrible python
09:36 < eudoxia> kanzure: i think i would like to do it by hand. pandoc can convert markup and it would be a good opportunity to toss some stuff out
09:37 < FourFire> this is old, but if you ever find your lungs not working, then this could give you some more time to fix that: http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/4/140/140ra88
09:37 < eudoxia> but thanks for the offer
09:37 < kanzure> ikiwiki has a mediawiki formatting plugin according to jrayhawk
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09:39 < eudoxia> phew, the archive.org still has most of the content
09:39 < kanzure> http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Special:AllPages
09:40 < kanzure> http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Computational_Biology&action=edit
09:40 < kanzure> the content is still present, it's just not rendering for some reason
09:40 < kanzure> "Multiple cross-site request forgery (CSRF) vulnerabilities in MediaWiki 1.17.x before 1.17.3 and 1.18.x before 1.18.2 allow remote attackers to hijack the authentication of users with the block permission for requests that (1) block a user via a request to the Block module or (2) unblock a user via a request to the Unblock module."
09:41 < FourFire> we should really just have a collective wiki
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09:41 < FourFire> not competing ones
09:41 < FourFire> duplication of effort sucks, especially with limited populations
09:41 < kanzure> yes, but cpopell didn't agree with me
09:41 < kanzure> he thought that because diyhpluswiki didn't have the mediawiki css and layout that therefore he should start his own wiki
09:41 < kanzure> so he did. and then eudoxia used it.
09:41 < eudoxia> no, *i* complained about the CSS
09:42 < kanzure> oh sorry
09:42 < kanzure> that, then :)
09:42 < FourFire> it is claimed that this is the longest running, still active IRC channel for biohacking is this one
09:42 < FourFire> is there something to back up that claim
09:42 < kanzure> yep
09:42 < kanzure> well, what sort of evidence would you be interested in?
09:42 < FourFire> or is it just because you haven't heard of another one which speaks english?
09:42 < kanzure> logs going back to 2008-03-25 http://gnusha.org/logs/
09:42 < kanzure> #extropians died in 2004
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09:42 < FourFire> uhh a list of other defunct channels which are older than this one
09:42 < kanzure> #sl4 died in 2002
09:43 < eudoxia> there might be another one that is alive, but certainly not as active
09:43 < kanzure> oh yeah, i think there's a #transhumanism on efnet or something, with like 2 people
09:43 < eudoxia> and #dalnet
09:43 < kanzure> hplusroadmap suffers from the problem of not being easily discovered
09:43 < FourFire> yeah, that's not active
09:43 < kanzure> but this might not be a suffering :)
09:43 < FourFire> yeah, it's a name thing
09:44 < kanzure> well what the hell do you call diybio biohacking nootropic transhumanist stuff
09:44 < FourFire> oh you mean filter for only the people who are looking hard enough ups the average quality of discussion?
09:44 < FourFire> no, I'm just saying it's not easily findable because of the obscire name
09:44 < kanzure> i don't mean to explicitly say that, but yes that might be happening, but it may als onot be happening
09:44 < kanzure> usually people find this place because they googled around and then they found the logs
09:45 < FourFire> well I was referred here from a rationalist channel ... I think by cpopell
09:45 < eudoxia> i found it from some obscure link in anissimov's wiki
09:45 < kanzure> yes but you were disappointed in transhumanists
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09:46 < eudoxia> i should put my money where my mouth is and do something hplussy
09:46 < kanzure> 17:48 < eudoxia> Oh my God. A shred of activity in a transhumanism-related channel.
09:46 < eudoxia> "By God, I have found it"
09:46 < FourFire> I admit that I don't fully understand the definition of "extropian"
09:47 < FourFire> it's something like, people who say "yeah, I'll see you in the rings of saturn, next century"
09:47 < kanzure> http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/princip.html
09:47 < kanzure> well, it's a weak form of transhumanism but at least it's vaguely pro-actionary
09:47 < kanzure> here is a stronger formulation http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration/
09:47 < delinquentme> know how people find ##hplusroadmap?
09:48 < delinquentme> REDDIT.
09:48  * delinquentme GASP
09:48  * delinquentme implodes
09:48 < kanzure> so far i have not been impressed by the quality of redditors introduced to this channel
09:48 < FourFire> that is the most concise definition I have seen, thanks
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09:48 < kanzure> which one?
09:48 < FourFire> the first
09:48 < kanzure> ok. feedback on the second appreciated.
09:49 < delinquentme> spontaneous order is the one I've heard most about ... Max More is big into the idea
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09:49 < delinquentme> kanzure, people just want to get excited
09:49 < kanzure> i don't care
09:49 < delinquentme> .....
09:49 < delinquentme> kanzure, stop projecting.
09:49 < FourFire> there's no hits on ctrl-f "extrop"
09:49 < kanzure> i'm telling you that i don't care, and this is projecting?
09:49 < FourFire> in the second link
09:49 < delinquentme> you've got the network to be a leader but not your issues w shrinkery.
09:50 < kanzure> FourFire: that's true, but i wrote it to sort of incorporate elements of the concepts of extropianism stuff
09:50 < delinquentme> ahem sorry, I mean they're unchecked.
09:50 < kanzure> why is it so important for you that i spend 10-14 hours/day on reddit?
09:50 < delinquentme> First time I came in here I ended up leaving because specifically you made it into a farse
09:51 < kanzure> (i would really rather do other things with my time than that)
09:51 < delinquentme> reddit isnt so imporant but the " I dont care" semi-self serving pomp response
09:51 < delinquentme> no I agree.
09:51 < kanzure> why should i care that people want to get excited?
09:51 < delinquentme> But. You're looking for people with a common goal ... and this is ONE of the communities that they can go which isn't total circle jerk crap.
09:51 < kanzure> what does that have to do with this conversation we were having
09:52 < delinquentme> kanzure, because not everyone is fucked emotionally.
09:52 < kanzure> i'm not sure i'm looking for people in the first place, actually
09:52 < delinquentme> being excited, is a GOOD human quality. And will only help.
09:52 < delinquentme> kanzure, again, you need to get your issues in check.
09:52 < kanzure> just because you don't accept my emotions doesn't mean i don't have them. that's really wrong.
09:53 < delinquentme> That is a massive defense mechanism. Unchecked psych bullshit
09:53 < kanzure> so your answer to "why should i care that people want to get excited?" is "kanzure, because not everyone is fucked emotionally." ?
09:53 < delinquentme> hahah
09:53 < delinquentme> No but I can say that they are the wrong emotions.  Now unless you're literally unhinged, which having met you I can tell you aren't
09:53 < delinquentme> you're just 'frontin
09:53 < FourFire> delinquentme, people can get excited after the big stuff is done
09:53 < kanzure> frontin?
09:54 < delinquentme> FourFire, sure but .... its more complex than that. Some people need to get excited to do anything at all
09:54 < FourFire> but those same people should not obstruct people who are actually going to collaborate and Make that big stuff happen
09:54 < delinquentme> kanzure, its not real.
09:54 < FourFire> so, even though it's eliteist, it's instrumentally better to filter for Doers
09:54 < delinquentme> Its not a genuine emotion, you're trying to be a tough guy at the expense of the community.
09:54 < delinquentme> FourFire, thats a false dichotomy.
09:54 < FourFire> or at least people who aren't going to lose the signal in all their noise
09:55 < kanzure> it's not elitist
09:55 < FourFire> delinquentme, of course, you have me there
09:56 < FourFire> I'm excited about genetic engineering, and if I wasn't then I wouldn't be interested in making some of it happen
09:56 < kanzure> delinquentme: do you legitimately believe that i am unfeeling?
09:56 < kanzure> sorry, i mean, do you believe
09:57 < FourFire> I'm not saying Kanzure's behavior, or mood is not undesirable, I'm just saying that they are not all bad
09:57 < FourFire> it is*
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09:59 < delinquentme> http://www.nanotronicsimaging.com/  < thoughts on this?
09:59 -!- heathjs is now known as heath
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10:00 < delinquentme> Thiel money ... but its kind of a REALLY simple idea
10:01 < ParahSailin> no reddit
10:01 < chris_99> do you send stuff to them delinquentme
10:02 < kanzure> that would be a stronger statement if it didn't come from a reddit mod ;)
10:02 < kanzure> erm, moderator
10:02 < FourFire> erh, I'm technically a reddit mod
10:02 < delinquentme> whats the web comic? thats 4 letters? Its about nothing and everything?
10:02 < FourFire> "technically"
10:02 < kanzure> xkcd
10:02 < delinquentme> yeah!
10:02 < delinquentme> tanks
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10:04 < FourFire> delinquentme, 1350 was interesting
10:04 < chris_99> for a microscope how would one move the object electronically, is there electronic micromanipulators that you could use to scan a whole object with the microscope
10:04 < kanzure> yes there are often xy axis for moving the slide
10:05 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/cgit/ucam/tree/Processing/ucam_ps3/ucam_ps3.pde
10:06 < chris_99> any info on the servo stuff for that
10:06 < chris_99> looks intersting
10:06 < kanzure> hmm well this was a fork of a git repo from mac cowell
10:06 < kanzure> and he may have had a blog post explaining his setup
10:06 < kanzure> it was called ucam
10:06 < chris_99> i'll have a looky ta
10:09 < chris_99> http://diybio.org/2009/12/13/webcam-microscope-hacks-at-bosslab/
10:10 < FourFire> one example: http://xkcd.com/1350/#p:2ed958de-badf-11e3-8001-002590d77bdd
10:12 < eudoxia> re:xkcd comic: i don't get that first line about BSD
10:13 < eudoxia> installing freebsd was probably my most pleasant os setup experience
10:13 < eudoxia> it even configured my wifi
10:14 < ParahSailin> does freebsd still lack an https site?
10:15 < kanzure> i don't think that xkcd comic works. there's too many panels of silence.
10:15 < kanzure> so no matter which lines you pick, they never work together
10:16 < delinquentme> https://experiment.com/projects/a-community-biohacker-space-and-education-center-for-scientists-of-all-skill-levels-and-ages
10:17 < delinquentme> more biohackers spaces
10:17 < kanzure> biocurious is going down in flames
10:17 < kanzure> only 10 active members
10:17 < delinquentme> chris_99, easiest way would be to rig up steppers to an existing mechanical stage
10:17 < kanzure> at least $6000/mo in expenses
10:17 < delinquentme> scale the steps per magnification
10:19 < kanzure> http://biologik.github.io/
10:19 < eudoxia> finally CSS i can trust
10:19 < kanzure> membership fees just aren't working
10:21 < kanzure> i don't know why people keep trying it
10:23 < eudoxia> what funding model would you suggest?
10:23 < eudoxia> a biological cellular automaton to mine bitcoin?
10:23 < kanzure> well, first, self-funding
10:24 < kanzure> it is possible to use your own resources to acquire more resources
10:25 < kanzure> second, i recognize that self-funding is not a suitably interesting answer
10:25 < kanzure> it's certainly not as quick as trying a membership fee system
10:26 < kanzure> (especially if you don't have any money, skills, resources, training, etc.)
10:29 < ruphos> member fees is passable for us, augmented by periodic classes
10:29 < ruphos> there isn't really an effective business model though
10:30 < kanzure> "for us" for who?
10:30 < ruphos> LA biohackers
10:30 < kanzure> oh i forgot or didn't know you were there
10:30 < kanzure> what is up with that crew?
10:31 < ruphos> doing some cool stuff. I've not made it in too often in the past few months, though.
10:31 < ruphos> working a lot with the backyard brains folks and putting on classes for their hardware projects
10:32 < kanzure> i thought the backyard brains people were in detroit?
10:32 < ruphos> they are
10:32 < ruphos> they send us the kits, we show people how to put them together and general use
10:32 < kanzure> so is cory chasing grant money these days?
10:33 < ruphos> not that I know of
10:33 < kanzure> i heard that he became an assistant/associate/something professor
10:33 < ruphos> yeah, he's lecturing at the school he got his undergrad. California Lutheran? Something like that
10:33 < ruphos> his nitrogenase project fucking took off though
10:34 < ruphos> he's got people at umich university college working on it with him now
10:34 < ruphos> *umich and
10:35 < ruphos> We've got a new guy who's marine biologist that's working on 3d printing sea sponges
10:36 < kanzure> is it for scaffold for sponge growth?
10:37 < ruphos> I think they're alternating layers of sponge cells and gelatin and seeing if that will hold as scaffold until the sponge cells reintegrate with each other
10:37 < ruphos> I don't know too much about that one, tbh. but it sounds neat.
10:38 < kanzure> hmm maybe sponges die when they are forcefully relocated unless integrated
10:39 < ruphos> No idea, but apparently its feasible
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10:57 < kanzure> eudoxia: archels is in-person w/ anders today so we can probably coerce archels into bringing up specific topics with anders
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10:57 < eudoxia> kanzure: that conf he mentioned a few weeks back?
10:57 < kanzure> dunno
10:57 < eudoxia> you said something about heckling him
10:58 < eudoxia> "boo when are you building a moon brain"
10:58 < eudoxia> http://turingbirds.com/temp/IMAG0618.jpg
10:58 < ParahSailin> sea sponges are pretty crazy
10:59 < kanzure> eudoxia: dates don't work there
10:59 < ParahSailin> you can put two sea sponges of different species in a blender, then mix their cells together and a chimera will coalesce
11:01 < kanzure> i think that one might go straight into gradstudentbot
11:04 < kanzure> http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/julian-assange-debian-is-owned-by-the-nsa/
11:04 < kanzure> hmm, so it's very hard for me to tell whether or not the openssl bug was planted
11:04 < kanzure> frankly the project structure is atrocious in the first place, so bugs are quite likely
11:05 < kanzure> the lack of tests would lead me to believe that the quality of the library as a whole should be under much greater suspicion than just whether or not your favorite TLA planted some bug or not
11:06 < eudoxia> i like this blog
11:07 < delinquentme> kanzure, it seems like something that someone would have caught no?
11:07 < delinquentme> does he offer backing for the claim?
11:07 < kanzure> no, this is not something you would catch because there's 10000 other problems with the source code
11:07 < kanzure> like how they inconsistently go back and forth on whethre or not 0 is true or false
11:07 < kanzure> or whether or not 0 is an error code or success code
11:08 < kanzure> *whether
11:08 < eudoxia> delinquentme: it's not like there's an army of CS profs constantly auditing the code
11:08 < kanzure> well even if there was that army, the code is in a bad state to begin with
11:10 < eudoxia> well, according to some HN comment apparently google might be trying to fix it
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11:10 < kanzure> sometimes it's better to just throwaway crap code
11:10 < kanzure> because otherwise maintaining the state in working memory of "the way things used to work" compared to "the way things should work" is a really difficult task
11:10 < kanzure> even harder than just "do it right"
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11:13 < eudoxia> i also think it's a lost cause, but it's not like anything will change any time soon
11:14 < jrayhawk> 09:34 < eudoxia> http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Main_Page shameless plu- oh what the hell
11:14 < eudoxia> maybe if apache/nginx switched to miTLS for SSL (is that how it works?)
11:14 < jrayhawk> haha, oh centralized contributor models :toot:
11:14 < kanzure> it's not like many people edit diyhpluswiki.git
11:15 < eudoxia> well, fwiw, i've come to the conclusion that git-backed wikis are the Right Thing
11:16 < jrayhawk> if you like pandoc so much, i can conceivably be tricked into supporting gitit on the management backend for diyhpl.us
11:17 < kanzure> that would not be very high on my list of things i'd be interested in tricking you into
11:18 < eudoxia> ikiwiki is probably Good Enough
11:19 < kanzure> i've been meaning to try git-mediawiki
11:19 < kanzure> i wonder if it's bi-directional
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11:36 < kanzure> delinquentme: what is your opinion of stimulants like dextroamphetamines?
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11:41 < nmz787_i> some dude on a programming forum said i had a bad attitude, :/
11:41 < kanzure> your approach to interacting with open source projects is highly unconventional and outside the established social norms
11:41 < kanzure> look at me mommy, talking about social norms wheeeee
11:41 < nmz787_i> what does that mean?
11:41 < nmz787_i> i mean, I really don't know
11:41 < nmz787_i> I thought I follow netiquette
11:42 < kanzure> well, i'm referring to the comments i made about your javascript-related ticket you posted to that github repo
11:42 < nmz787_i> oh
11:42 < kanzure> but there's also been additional evidence, like your beliefs about my obligations as maintainer of pdfparanoia
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11:42 < nmz787_i> well this is a totally different dude (and for what its worth that javascript uploader guy finally came around and posted something more helpful)
11:42 < kanzure> regarding completeness or fit for particular purposes
11:43 < kanzure> *fitness
11:43 < nmz787_i> kanzure: I understand that its not your only project though
11:43 < nmz787_i> kanzure: isn't complaining OK here, I thought we were pals
11:44 < nmz787_i> kanzure: and I did try to add to it
11:44 < kanzure> i'm not talking about the fact that you complained
11:44 < nmz787_i> kanzure: but honestly all the pull request crap is really hard for me to remember
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11:44 < nmz787_i> the version tools are definitely not that easy to use when you're not a full-time programmer
11:45 < nmz787_i> which I really don't want to be
11:45 < kanzure> https://github.com/blueimp/jQuery-File-Upload/issues/3028
11:45 < jrayhawk> I am not a full-time programmer.
11:46 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: I thought that was your career though
11:46 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: or at least what you spend a lot of time on
11:46 < kanzure> hehe
11:46 < jrayhawk> No. It is rare that I have to write code and I am highly resentful of it when I do.
11:46 < kanzure> well look at this jrayhawk, somehow you've acquired a reputation for being a programmer! :)
11:47 < jrayhawk> augh
11:47 < jrayhawk> this is the worst day
11:47 < nmz787_i> heh, jrayhawk was reading about perl when we were off-roading in the snow in the mountains!
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11:47 < kanzure> yes and he was probably dying on the inside
11:48 < nmz787_i> this is the thread https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cefpython/r0aUZUZ7SsA
11:48 < jrayhawk> yeah, that was for piny, which is literally the only codebase over 100 lines i have ever written
11:48 < nmz787_i> My responses seem professional, I tried the stuff they said before I posted the OP... so the following comments were unhelpful and that's all I said
11:48 < nmz787_i> (AFAI can tell)
11:49 < jrayhawk> i think i was fighting with getopt implementations on the way to the mountains and git's dumb gitconfig syntax on the way back from the mountains
11:49 < jrayhawk> why do i remember this
11:49 < jrayhawk> fuck you, programming
11:51 < kanzure> yeah, so i can sort of see the attitude that he doesn't like here
11:53 < dingo> i had a coworker who brought a "learning xml" book on a "sail around the world trip". he said it was like carrying a brick, it was impossible to read
11:53 < kanzure> in general he doesn't want to support people that are thinking the way you have demonstrated because it would compromize structural integrity
11:53 < nmz787_i> hmm, structural integrity?
11:53 < kanzure> dingo: i weep for anyone that tries to learn xml from a book like that
11:54 < kanzure> *compromise
11:55 < jrayhawk> architects set constraints on what a codebase should do; violating one or more constraints opens up a can of worms
11:55 < kanzure> like, one of the major issues is how you're violating multiple levels of abstraction without showing evidene that you understand the distinction
11:55 < kanzure> *evidence
11:55 < nmz787_i> hmm?
11:55 < kanzure> the internal webframe is not at all the same as the actual gui frame
11:55 < nmz787_i> i knew that
11:56 < nmz787_i> and mentioned it in the OP
11:56 < kanzure> in fact, webkit/blink/whatever would render to png if anyone cared (sigh)
11:56 < nmz787_i> wxFrame vs PyFrame
11:56 < kanzure> there's many more levels going on here :)
11:56 < kanzure> wxframe pyframe cefpython cef chromium blink/webkit
11:57 < kanzure> does cefpython provide you a python<->javascript bindings and bridging?
11:58 < nmz787_i> sure, ok, I knew that just from the fact I'm importing those things
11:58 < nmz787_i> yes
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11:58 < kanzure> are you sure? because otherwise you'll have to do the stupid phantomjs technique: json object serialization over alert() and console.log()
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11:58 < kanzure> here's what python<->javascript looks like: https://gist.github.com/kanzure/6581415
11:58 < nmz787_i> but sending the size over on $(document).ready or $(window).load doesn't work reliably (sometimes its a tall rectanlge, sometimes its a wide rectangle)
11:58 < kanzure>         self.element_invested = self.js.globalObject.document.getElementsByClassName("investment").values()[0]
11:59 < kanzure>         self.element_invested.addEventListener("DOMSubtreeModified", on_updated_investment)
11:59 < kanzure> self.js.evaluateScript("var on_result = function(data) { .... };")
11:59 < nmz787_i> you can bind python functions to the javascript functions-available
11:59 < nmz787_i> whatever that's really called
12:00 < kanzure> http://code.google.com/p/cefpython/wiki/JavascriptBindings
12:00 < kanzure> damn bindings.SetObject("myobject", myobject)
12:00 < kanzure> i wonder how i missed this when i was looking
12:00 < kanzure> fuck
12:00 < nmz787_i> it only copies them though
12:00 < kanzure> is this headless?
12:00 < nmz787_i> it can be
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12:01 < nmz787_i> so if you change a var in javascript, python doesn't see it
12:01 < nmz787_i> you have to send the data over via a function call
12:01 < kanzure> wtf? that's stupid
12:01 < kanzure> what's the function call?
12:01 < nmz787_i> whatever you want
12:01 < kanzure> i see. in the bindings i demonstrated above, it's bidirectional. values modified through javascript end up modified in python too.
12:02 < nmz787_i> http://code.google.com/p/cefpython/source/browse/cefpython/cef3/windows/binaries/wxpython.py
12:02 < nmz787_i> http://code.google.com/p/cefpython/source/browse/cefpython/cef3/windows/binaries/wxpython.html
12:02 < nmz787_i> I don't really care about the message passing req
12:02 < nmz787_i> ugh
12:02 < nmz787_i> this is depressing
12:04 < nmz787_i> seems like the universe is telling programming is not what I'm meant to be doing
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12:06 < kanzure> if you're interested in using a browser for the ui there's also appjs but it's not python
12:06 < nmz787_i> this has to be python
12:06 < kanzure> why were you using a browser again?
12:06 < nmz787_i> other than that resize/default size this seems like a much easier to read codebase for non-gui programmers
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12:07 < nmz787_i> than doing pure wxpython
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12:07 < kanzure> did you look at gtk stuff? e.g. the glade gui wizard tool
12:07 < nmz787_i> yeah
12:07 < nmz787_i> used it years ago
12:07 < nmz787_i> didn't check to see if it got much better, but it would have had to get much better for me to want to use it
12:08 < nmz787_i> plus i figured there are a lot more readily available web programmers
12:08 < nmz787_i> for maintaining something like this
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12:08 < nmz787_i> or instrumenting new guis quickly
12:09 < kanzure> and what about qtdesigner?
12:10 < nmz787_i> hmm, don't think I checked that out
12:10 < kanzure> look on youtube for a quick peak
12:10 < kanzure> peek
12:10 < nmz787_i> but again, my guess/feeling from looking on craigslist is there are tons more web programmers out there, and that a lot more effort has been put into web standards and getting rendering to work right
12:11 < nmz787_i> hopefully it won't pique me
12:11 < kanzure> on second thought, i shouldn't suggest qt to you
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12:16 < kanzure> "We are excited to announce that mouse cell line authentication is now available on Science Exchange. One of our newest labs, DDC Medical, has developed a unique STR profiling test and database that enables authentication of mouse cell lines commercially for the first time ever."
12:16 < kanzure> "Over a third of cell lines used for biomedical research are contaminated or misidentified causing wasted resources and irreproducible results. As a result, many journals and funding agencies now require authentication. To get you started, DDC Medical is offering buy one get one free for all cell line authentication orders on Science Exchange in April."
12:16 < kanzure> http://sciex.co/ddc
12:16 < kanzure> nice url shortener they gnabbed
12:17 < nmz787_i> i could imagine Borat pronouncing that URL and it sounding dirty
12:17 < nmz787_i> at least the domain
12:24 < nmz787_i> the developers last line of his first response says everything about why I don't want to use some js callback before the GUI is painted/drawn/rendered "Be aware that resources take some time to load. Until page DOM is loaded you can't know for sure its size. If the loading takes 2-3 seconds then changing the window size after that time probably isn't a good user experience."
12:24 < nmz787_i> thanks for telling me the UX for your recommendation will suck
12:24 < kanzure> why is it bad that he saved you the trouble?
12:25 < nmz787_i> because its also his recommendation
12:26 < kanzure> he was being honest with you, yes?
12:27 < nmz787_i> sure
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12:35 < kanzure> jrayhawk: so p2pfoundation wiki has like 20,000 pages in the top-level namespace
12:36 < kanzure> (warning: 3 MB) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/p2pfoundation/dumpspot/revision_titles.json
12:36 < kanzure> jrayhawk: and some of them are stupid like " - SOMETHING"
12:37 < kanzure> should i really just dump all of these into the same folder in a git repo? :\
12:39 < kanzure> i'm also curious if i should be using git-fast-import
12:41 < jrayhawk> good lord
12:42 < kanzure> some of them have / in their title
12:42 < jrayhawk> A spam problem, or what?
12:42 < kanzure> content problem
12:42 < jrayhawk> huh
12:42 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/p2pfoundation/pagenames.txt
12:42 < kanzure> Logic_Live/Participants
12:43 < kanzure> also i think /es is for spanish language content?
12:43 < jrayhawk> ikiwiki has some character escape thing it supports for page names; alternatively you could just s~/~slash~
12:44 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Ca_la_fou/es
12:44 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Ca_la_fou/ca
12:44 < kanzure> what a terrible pile of crap
12:45 < jrayhawk> https://ikiwiki.info/plugins/po/
12:45 < jrayhawk> though i suspect there's no real mapping in translation features, there
12:45 < kanzure> maybe i'll have to pick and choose content
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12:46 < kanzure> doing this cleanly is not obvious
12:47 < kanzure> whoever said that wikis were a good way to organize content should be shot
12:48 < kanzure> why is this a page title? Http://www.p2pfounation.net/Improvised_Voice_Instrumental_Music
12:48 < jrayhawk> i think the wiki model is more about collecting than organizing
12:49 < kanzure> Study_on_Debian_Governance_and_Social_Organization
12:49 < kanzure> Open_Source_Developers_and_the_Ethic_of_Capitalism
12:50 < kanzure> http://p2pfoundation.net/Study_on_Debian_Governance_and_Social_Organization
12:51 < kanzure> "The governance system designed embraced two important and potentially contradictory elements: 1) formal positional authority and 2) limitation of that authority through democractic means."
12:51 < jrayhawk> biella coleman also had some sociological papers on debian
12:51 < jrayhawk> DDs got bizarrely excited about it
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12:51 < kanzure> huh.
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14:48 < kanzure> are there any u.s. banks that don't completely suck? e.g. where balances can't be transferred by just a routing number, account number and amount.
14:52 < kanzure> http://abcnews.go.com/Business/rob-bank-thousands-internal-bank-thefts-unprosecuted-year/story?id=15760358
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14:53 < dingo> thats always blown my mind
14:53 < dingo> i mean what the hell, if i write a check, i'm giving away the keys for them to write checks on my behalf, right?
14:54 < kanzure> 14:53 <+xentrac> but basically the whole check clearing system consists of every bank trusting every other bank to transfer balances with just a routing number and account number
14:54 < dingo> certainly is a chain of trust thing, like very very bad pgp :-)
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14:57 < kanzure> dingo: yeah i'm not sure i could design a more silly system
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16:32 < kanzure> runscope raised $6M series A, yeesh
16:33 < kanzure> http://requestb.in/ is pretty cool but i'm surprised runscope is the primary product they were able to raise on
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17:29 < kanzure> english spelling irregularities http://www.spellingsociety.org/spelling/irregularities
17:32 < kanzure> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2008-March/000883.html
17:33 < kanzure> "energy harvesting of EM fields for low-power electronics" http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2013-June/000982.html
17:33 < kanzure> hmm who is this guy
17:39 < dingo> i knew a guy who was very much into that concept
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17:40 < dingo> heh wasn't this guy tho
17:42 < dingo> hmm some similar ideas as this, he showed me one of his experiments, a coiled open wire strung across a room corner to corner and a germanium bridge rectifier he was able to produce variable amounts at about half a watt or so
17:47 < kanzure> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2000-May/000589.html "I was thinking about doing audio imaging by a similar means.  I could stick a bunch of microphones all over my car and sample them in real time, processing the signals by means similar to the VLA (but feasible on a general-purpose PC, because the signals are hundreds or thousands of hertz, not hundreds of megahertz) to obtain two-dimensional images of its environment."
17:49 < kanzure> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2005-June/000786.html "audio synthesis with internal combustion engines"
17:51 < kanzure> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2005-October/000802.html "the energy cost to evacuate Earth's human population"
17:52 < dingo> haha
17:52 < dingo> thats a sobering thought
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18:00 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robocrane "The Robocrane is a kind of manipulator resembling a Stewart platform but using an octahedral assembly of cables instead of struts. Like the Stewart platform, the Robocrane has six degrees of freedom (x, y, z, pitch, roll, & yaw)."
18:01 < kanzure> apparently i had emailed that guy (james albus) in 2008
18:01 < kanzure> wasn't aware that he is dead now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_S._Albus
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18:04 < eudoxia> kanzure: is there someone on the internet you have not emailed?
18:05 < kanzure> well, i thought i knew him because of STEP, but then i checked my email archives and apparently it was nothing about STEP or ISO 10303
18:05 < kanzure> instead it was this stuff: http://web.archive.org/web/20110612174205/http://www.peoplescapitalism.org/book/chapter07.cfm
18:05 < kanzure> which is even weirder. back in 2008 i was supposed to be hating sites like that.
18:06 < kanzure> also another email shows that paul fernhout met albus in the 80s
18:06 < eudoxia> was it because of the cfm extension
18:06 < kanzure> no it was because the 2008 version of myself thought anything about economics was horseshit
18:07 < eudoxia> and where do you stand now?
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18:08 < kanzure> well, i'm looking over this page and it just seems to be a standard "basic income" argument, which still confuses me (the me in 2008 wouldn't have been interested in that idea)
18:09 < kanzure> oh it was mostly his use of the word superautomation
18:10 < kanzure> oh weird AASM references him:
18:10 < kanzure> http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/AASM55.html
18:10 < kanzure> "Superautomation on Earth and in space. The use of self replicating systems on Earth poses many problems. A compact, freely replicating system released on the surface of the Earth potentially could compete with humans for resources such as living space and energy. It could also smother us in its waste products. Even if kept under control, a terrestrial SRS could wreak economic havoc by manufacturing products for which the consumers who will ...
18:10 < kanzure> ... use the products will not have to pay. Unfortunately, we will probably have to deal with this problem regardless of whether replicating systems technology per se is ever developed. If industrial automation continues in the direction it seems to be headed now, global commerce soon will reach a state of "superautomation" (Albus, 1976) in which an entire national industrial base has become automated and is, for all practical purposes, a ...
18:10 < kanzure> ... terrestrial SRS. Such a system may function without the need for significant inputs of human labor. Eventually it should be possible to deal with the attendant economic dislocations, but the transition is certain to be excruciatingly painful."
18:11 < eudoxia> freitas should be more popular
18:12 < kanzure> i keep forgetting that everyone in the bitcoin world only knows about merkle because of public key cryptography
18:13 < ParahSailin> why would you spend energy to forcibly empty the bowels of every human on earth?
18:13 < kanzure> spring cleaning
18:13 < kanzure> happens every wednesday
18:16 < kanzure> 6dof stewart platform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4OmVLc_oDw
18:17 < eudoxia> i thought it was going to be one of those big ones with pistons the size of suspension bridge cables
18:19 < kanzure> yes me too :|
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19:05 < kanzure> i wonder if there's anyone looking into self-organized manufacturing equipment. like small self-assembled parts that in aggregate form a structure that is able to handle larger loads or melt things.
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