--- Log opened Sun Apr 20 00:00:17 2014
--- Day changed Sun Apr 20 2014
00:00 < fenn> Damn kid. Tying up the phone line again. They're all alike...
00:01 < xmj> Damn kid.  All he does is play games.  They're all alike. << resonated more
00:01 < fenn> ah i hadn't actually looked at the url
00:01 < xmj> hahaha
00:01 < xmj> fenn: scary
00:02 < fenn> i saw "phrack" and then was like, "why don't i have a copy of that in ~/book/computers/
00:02 < xmj> then you put wget to the task.
00:02 < fenn> no, then i googled "hacker manifesto"
00:02 < xmj> close
00:03 < ebowden> Fenn, could such an experiment produce data that would move the discourse in any particular direction?
00:03 < ebowden> (Providing we used controls.)
00:04 < fenn> i dont know what you mean by "task specific strategies"
00:05 < fenn> chunking i guess, but that's just cognition
00:06 < fenn> anyway, YES dietary changes and nootropic drugs should increase working memory, and see that on objective tests and perhaps even fMRI
00:07 < fenn> (I haven't read anything about fMRI in a few years, it probably has progressed a lot in that time.)
00:07 < ebowden> Oh, back fenn.
00:08 < ebowden> Basically, when they don't see the expected transfer in performance to other tasks, they attribute to them getting better at the working memory task, rather than working memory itself.
00:08 < ebowden> *they attribute it to
00:09 < fenn> why not just test the task that you're trying to improve
00:09 < fenn> and then have a control group
00:10 < fenn>  /nick captain_obvious
00:11 < fenn> this is a pretty good argument for human cloning. there aren't enough twins to go around, so all new babies should be clones so we can do science experiments on them
00:11 < ebowden> They are not trying to improve a specific task.
00:11 < fenn> who is "they"?
00:12 < fenn> reptilians from sirius B?
00:12 < ebowden> Oh, the researchers.
00:12  * fenn facepalms
00:13 < xmj> haha
00:13 < xmj> great
00:13 < ebowden> fenn, You want me to trudge through, find a specific paper in which that happens, and say "Nilms et all were.."?
00:14 < fenn> it seems like you have a specific context in which everything you say makes sense, but i'm not paying enough attention to deduce it
00:14 < fenn> sorry if that's disrespectful
00:14 < fenn> i have 130 tabs open
00:14 < ebowden> It doesn't sound disrespectful, just strange.
00:15 < ebowden> Which is not not meant to sound disrespectful.
00:15 < fenn> you want to increase working memory because someone said "maybe working memory IS iq", but i don't really care about iq, i care about performance on things that matter
00:15 < ebowden> And being distracted probably excuses that anyway.
00:15 < xmj> fenn: have you tried singletasking?
00:16 < xmj> people say (and science supports it ;-) that you get moer done singletasking
00:16 < fenn> i'm not sure how to answer that, since i don't "multitask"
00:17 < fenn> i mean, i'm talking on IRC, so i'm trying to read the paper you linked, etc.
00:17 < fenn> how can i talk to you if i dont read the paper you linked
00:17 < ebowden> Oh, fenn, IQ most certainly does matter, if pier reviewed research on the matter is to be believed. It just does not matter as much as some other things.
00:17 < xmj> fenn: multitasking as in back and forth between irc and the paper you're reading.
00:17 < xmj> not reading the paper at once
00:17 < ebowden> Which is what you are going after fenn, and that's good.
00:18 < fenn> well, it definitely is easier to talk to one person at a time
00:18 < ebowden> (The other things, which have more of an effect, are what I meant to say you were going after.
00:19 < ebowden> (The other things, which have more of an effect, are what I meant to say you were going after.)
00:19 < fenn> anyway multitasking isn't the reason i have so many tabs/projects open
00:19 < ebowden> Ah, sorry fenn.
00:19 < fenn> i'm a tab hoarder :)
00:20 < ebowden> Join the club.
00:20 < fenn> i grew up during times of tab scarcity
00:20 < fenn> why, back in my day, web browsers only had one tab
00:20 < ebowden> LOL
00:21 < fenn> "what do you need so many tabs for, this place is a mess!"
00:21 < xmj> fenn: back when i started, tabs didn't exist
00:21 < xmj> that was around IE3 maybe IE4 times.
00:21 < fenn> i started with NCSA mosaic :P
00:21 < xmj> did it have tabs, then?
00:21 < fenn> uh. it didn't even have forms
00:21 < xmj> good times
00:22 < fenn> no forms = no search engine, but there were no search engines either
00:22 < fenn> so people kept lists of "what's new and hot on the web"
00:22 < fenn> sometimes i think maybe that was a better system
00:23 < fenn> basically tumblr
00:23 < jrayhawk> xmj: there's a few different answers to this question; broadly speaking, "paleo" is equivalent to "taking shortcuts in science using anthropological norms as a null hypothesis", which allowed e.g. Weston Price to work out how Mk4 worked 50 years before standard biochemistry research did, and Roman Shatin to work out the connection between gut permeability and autoimmunity and how gluten effects it, but, at this point, most of the ...
00:23 < yoleaux> 06:47Z <xmj> jrayhawk: hi, this is mostly  reminder to myself to ask you about scientific articles re: paleo diet.
00:23 < jrayhawk> ... anthropological handwaving is no longer necessary.
00:23 < ebowden> Oh fenn, basically, I am going after working memory and 'fluid reasoning ability' because it helps in a LOT of things, and improvements in it are so exceptionally elusive.
00:23 < ebowden> I'm chasin' the brain dragon.
00:24 < fenn> by Mk4 he is talking about http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/x-factor-is-vitamin-k2
00:24 < jrayhawk> oh i should say the Roman Shatin intestinal permeability thing is also 50 years ahead of its time.
00:24 < fenn> is it?
00:25 < fenn> hippies have been talking about gut permeability for decades
00:25 < jrayhawk> Yeah, 1960's. Fasano only discovered Zonulin in 2000.
00:25 < fenn> oh, i see. i thought you were talking about fasano/zonulin
00:25 < jrayhawk> Yeah, but hippies didn't concisely map it to gluten and autoimmunity; they just claimed it was responsible for everything
00:26 < fenn> well, autoimmunity causes a lot of different symptoms
00:26 < jrayhawk> It's true.
00:27 < jrayhawk> And having read some of Vojdani's stuff, the scope of stuff anti-gliadin antibodies screw up is sortof terrifying.
00:27 < ebowden> Oh, fenn, what less elusive dragons are you chasing?
00:28 < fenn> sleep pods
00:28 < fenn> LCARS
00:28 < ebowden> What are LCARS?
00:28 < fenn> software that isn't bloated
00:28 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
00:28 < fenn> LCARS is the fictional touchscreen interface from Star Trek
00:28 < ebowden> LOL
00:29 < fenn> except now it's actually possible to build it on commodity hardware with open web standards (CSS3 and javascript)
00:29 < fenn> you don't even need the javascript really
00:29 < ebowden> Well, it's neat.
00:29 < ebowden> So, what about the sleep pods?
00:30 < jrayhawk> anyway, if you like anthropological null hypothesis handwaving, there have been a lot of research trials with impressive results; http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials-part.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/02/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials-part.html ...
00:30 < jrayhawk> ... http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/09/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials-part.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/one-last-thought.html
00:31 < fenn> a lot of people spend the majority of their income (and thus time) on rent and bills; i think this is morally wrong. one way around this is to minimize the energy and space requirements for living. we can do this by designing the functional layout of the home and optimizing thermal, acoustic, and olfactory isolation from the environment.
00:31 < jrayhawk> a lot of those researchers also regularly do presentations at the Ancestral Health Symposium which are full of interesting commentary.
00:31 < ebowden> Neat fenn.
00:32 < fenn> ebowden: bucky fuller had a lot to say about this during his "dymaxion" period, but he took a more grandiose government-sponsored approach
00:32 < ebowden> Oh, jrayhawk, what was it you did here?
00:32 < ebowden> Oh?
00:33 < jrayhawk> I run a bunch of network infrastructure that Kanzure (ab)uses.
00:33 < jrayhawk> Occasionally I am called upon to be a dietary crank.
00:34 < fenn> packaging toilet, single piece stainless bathroom, air dropped housing, 3 wheeled aerodynamic car.. mash all this together with LCARS and water purification and you have what i'm thinking about at the moment
00:34 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
00:34 < fenn> jrayhawk: I appreciate your dietary crankiness
00:34 < ebowden> Fenn, how feasible is it today?
00:35 < fenn> it was feasible in 1930, built, tested, commercially viable. nobody wanted it.
00:35 < JayDugger1> Been reading RBF, fenn?
00:35 < JayDugger1> never mind, read the log, I get itl
00:35 < fenn> if you can't murder them, poison the water supply with psychotropic drugs
00:36 < ebowden> Can't murder who?
00:36 < fenn> the consumers
00:36 < fenn> the fucktards who keep building square wooden boxes and wondering why they burn down and cost so much to repair
00:37 < fenn> did you know the average bathroom renovation costs $30,000
00:37 < jrayhawk> Things what are usually interesting sources of research analysis and clinical reports: http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/base/users/AncestryFoundation/uploads http://chriskresser.com/feed http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/feeds/posts/default http://rawfoodsos.com/feed/ http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default http://www.marksdailyapple.com/feed/ http://www.robbwolf.com/feed/ http://eatingacademy.com/feed ...
00:37 < jrayhawk> ... http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default
00:37 < ebowden> Well, it seems, shockingly, people don't want tiny boxes as their homes.
00:37 < JayDugger1> Yes,believe me, I well know it.
00:37 < jrayhawk> i want caves
00:38 < fenn> okay but can they either 1) leave me alone while i build my nuclear rocket to go elsewhere, or 2) get the fuck off my planet
00:38 < ebowden> They will probably not leave you alone if you do anything nuclear.
00:39 < jrayhawk> ebowden: http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/100_2631.JPG oh yeah, i guess this is probably a more concise explanation of what i do
00:39 < fenn> according to ITAR i'm not allowed to build any kind of rocket
00:39 < JayDugger1> Hooray! a future neighbor. Let's have a round of "sudo skdb make --me -a nuclear_pulse_rocket"
00:39 < ebowden> ITAR?
00:39 < fenn> international treaty on arms trade restriction
00:39 < ebowden> LOL
00:39 < ebowden> Ok fenn.
00:39 < JayDugger1> Look it up; a depressing set of laws hobbling American aerospace.
00:40 < JayDugger1> If you don't know, enjoy your ignorance.
00:40 < fenn> you think it's funny, but a majority of my interests are limited by ITAR
00:40 < fenn> even five axis milling machines
00:40 < jrayhawk> not "any kind of rocket"
00:40 < fenn> like the soviets can't figure out how to build a milling machine
00:40 < ebowden> Oh, LOL was to the photograph.
00:40 < jrayhawk> PSAS got some clarification from the feds on what the ITAR limits are; you might email Andrew Greenberg or Nathan Bergey about what those wound up being.
00:40 < fenn> oh wait, there is no soviet union, why do we have ITAR?
00:41 < jrayhawk> PSAS was doing a bunch of experiments with canards that were starting to look an awful lot like guidance.
00:41 < ebowden> Fenn, because TERRORIST! MURICA!
00:41 < JayDugger1> Also limited by the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.
00:42 < JayDugger1> No, more like consolidate your company's  position by encouraging barriers to entry that small upstarts can't afford.
00:42 < fenn> sounds familiar, FDA anyone?
00:42 < ebowden> Oh, JayDugger1, what was it you did?
00:42 < JayDugger1> ITAR long predates the war on terror.
00:43 < JayDugger1> I work for an aerospace company with military contracts, though no longer in that division.
00:44 < ebowden> Oh?
00:44 < JayDugger1> Remember the old t-shirts, http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/shirt/, ?
00:44 < JayDugger1> ITAR blocked thosel
00:44 < JayDugger1> God damn it, what's with hitting 'l' vice '.'?
00:57 < ebowden> Oh, fenn, to clarify, I'm not after working memory because someone said something about it being related to IQ, but because a bunch of pier reviewed research has shown that it has some predictive power as a cognitive ability.
00:59 < fenn> meh
01:00 < ebowden> Given the dirge of evidence for successful interventions regarding it, I do understand your ambivalence.
01:03 < ebowden> But, a method of actually making someone measurably 'smarter' might be far more appealing to the general public than teaching other skills.
01:04 < JayDugger1> Only if it's easy.
01:05 < ebowden> Remember, there may be no need for presentation of stimuli or conscious effort.
01:05 < JayDugger1> Methods for increasing strength and health and attractiveness  exist, have wide support, and "exercise in a pill" is a punchline to many jokes.
01:06 < ebowden> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf
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01:11 < fenn> .tell ebowden working memory is probably a function of the thalamus. wikipedia says " the frontal cortex, parietal cortex, anterior cingulate, and parts of the basal ganglia" so i would start with looking at biochemistry specific to those regions.
01:11 < yoleaux> fenn: I'll pass your message to ebowden.
01:12 < fenn> hum i guess he just timed out
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01:12 < fenn> heh
01:12 < fenn> patience in a pill, i'd pay good money for that
01:13 < ebowden> LOL
01:13 < yoleaux> 08:11Z <fenn> ebowden: working memory is probably a function of the thalamus. wikipedia says " the frontal cortex, parietal cortex, anterior cingulate, and parts of the basal ganglia" so i would start with looking at biochemistry specific to those regions.
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01:14 < ebowden> Well, effexor induces neurogenesis in the frontal cortex.
01:14 < fenn> gosh if only we had a hplusroadmap wiki </sarcasm>
01:14 < ebowden> :D
01:15 < ebowden> Fenn, working memory recruits a variety of regions, including the PFC.
01:15 < JayDugger1> Patience in a pill? pot, ketamine, placodil?
01:16 < fenn> kanzure: does this file exist? http://heybryan.org/calxism/index2.html
01:16 < JayDugger1> Not quite what you meant.
01:16 < jrayhawk> fenn: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/11/going-loopy/ I was impressed with this as a working hypothesis for what serotonin does
01:17 < jrayhawk> which is close to hormonal patience
01:17 < fenn> JayDugger1: people take amphetamines for motivation, and it works. problem is then they go and do the wrong stuff
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01:18 < jrayhawk> yeah, they start IRC chatrooms and wikis.
01:18 < fenn> warning: mild ideohazards (cracking up here)
01:19 < fenn> postive emotional feedback loops do happen, they're called: panic attacks, depression, narcissism
01:20 < fenn> the brain wasn't even designed by an amateur, it just happened
01:23  * fenn shuts up and reads tfa
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01:28 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/psychohazard.jpg http://fennetic.net/irc/memetically_active.jpg
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01:30 < fenn> the problem with labels like "depression" is they don't really explain anything
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01:32 < fenn> "you have ehlers danlos syndrome hypermobility and low blood pressure due to a collagen synthesis defect in chromosome 11 and heterozygous MTHFR because your ancestors were inbred mormon pioneers" now THAT's an explanation that means something
01:32 < fenn> but they'd rather just medicate
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01:37 < fenn> people put way too much emphasis on serotonin and dopamine, it's the classic hammer looking for nails problem
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01:39 < ebowden> Well, SSRIs are one of the only things that can make people's brains get BIGGER as they get older.
01:40 < ebowden> So it can't be all bad.
01:42 < mosasaur> How would that work? Only babies can still expand their skull.
01:42 < fenn> this is probably due to their neurogenesis effect, which also occurs in e.g. lion's mane mushroom (BDNF)
01:42 < ebowden> Mushrooms are cool.
01:43 < fenn> mushrooms are underappreciated
01:43 < ebowden> Also, Effoxor has been documented to do it for the frontal cortex.
01:43 < ebowden> Not sure what regional limitations there are on the mushroom.
01:43 < fenn> me either
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01:45 < fenn> this OCD meta anxiety stuff reminds me of autoimmune disorders
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01:52 < fenn> "When dealing with certain complexes of ideas which are known to be infectious, and which appear to be outright harmful, I would argue that it’s fully rational, or metarational, to set those probabilities to zero precisely as a firewall against updating toward them." it takes real bravado to swim in a sewer without holding your nose
01:53 < fenn> i guess i'd rather believe things because i have reasons to, rather than ignore bad ideas with extreme prejudice
01:54 < fenn> there's no chance i'm going to suddenly become a jihadist just by reading some webpages
01:56 < mosasaur> Nick Land takes a long time before he comes out as a dark lord. All the time leading up to that, he continues to say sensible things.
01:58 < fenn> "Cybernetic Culture Research Unit" sounds pretty cool
01:58 < fenn> where do i sign up
01:59 < xmj> 11:12:49 < fenn> patience in a pill, i'd pay good money for that << exists already
01:59 < xmj> smoke weed
01:59 < fenn> doesn't work for me
02:00 < fenn> i just talk to aliens and fall asleep
02:00 < fenn> also, smoking's gross
02:01 < fenn> 'there is no "apple", only "red", "hard", etc. ... an object is only what it "modifies, transforms, perturbs, or creates"'  we came to much the same conclusion while designing schema for SKDB
02:02 < fenn> see logs on "what is a chair"
02:02 < fenn> (this is in reference to Nick Land)
02:04 < fenn> functional definition, geometric definition, reference to specific instances, learned model
02:05 < AshleyWaffle> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XSo6cyWPc
02:06 < fenn> someone op me so i can ban AshleyWaffle for linking a video with zero context or description
02:06 < fenn> yoleaux: come on man, what are you even doing
02:06 < xmj> AshleyWaffle is here too?
02:07 < xmj> damn, where is AshleyWaffle *not* ?
02:07 < AshleyWaffle> fenn: its music
02:07 < AshleyWaffle> wtf
02:07 < AshleyWaffle> ParahSailin: some help here?
02:07 < AshleyWaffle> im being harassed for posting a single link
02:08 < AshleyWaffle> xmj, fenn: parah invited me here, i just idle
02:08 < AshleyWaffle> leave me alone geez
02:08 < AshleyWaffle> anyway, gnight, im tired
02:08 < fenn> please describe links if the url is not descriptive
02:08 < AshleyWaffle> fenn: yes mein fuhrer
02:08 < mosasaur> Don't op fenn, they're too far ahead. OTOH a bot giving some context about a link is pretty standard.
02:08  * fenn salutes
02:08 < AshleyWaffle> mosasaur: yeah
02:09 < AshleyWaffle> otoh = ?
02:09 < mosasaur> ... on the other hand
02:09 < AshleyWaffle> ah
02:13 < fenn> it should be noted that i believe in never giving power to those who ask for it
02:13 < mosasaur> AshleyWaffle: It's still unclear what your link is about. I had to click it and it seems to have no relevant content.
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02:16 < fenn> i find it interesting how people can share visual aesthetic preferences but have absolutely no commonality when it comes to music
02:16 < fenn> need to see more data on that
02:18 < fenn> here, have another context-free music video http://vimeo.com/68634031
02:19 < xmj> fenn: did you get that 'not giving power to those who ask for it' from Hayek ?
02:19 < fenn> no, i came up with it myself just now
02:19 < xmj> fenn: dealing with AshleyWaffle it's best to ignore that person.
02:20 < xmj> AshleyWaffle: skews every signal:noise ratio. heavily in favor of noise.
02:20 < fenn> noise has its function
02:20 < fenn> (ha)
02:21 < fenn> (not the riemann zeta function)
02:21 < ebowden> Oh, hello AshleyWaffle. What do you do?
02:22 < xmj> fenn: i'm not sure if AshleyWaffle is pink or brown noise
02:23 < fenn> security/privacy stuff i think, possibly a fictional person
02:24 < fenn> whatever that means
02:24 < fenn> on the internet, nobody knows you're a god
02:25 < ebowden> Oh, hey mosasaur. What do you do here?
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02:28 < fenn> startup idea: connect hot girls to people wanting to use their pictures for catfishing purposes
02:28 < ebowden> LOL
02:29 < ebowden> You are evil.
02:29 < mosasaur> ebowden: Hi, I'm giving this a test-run for a #lesswrong alternative.
02:29 < ebowden> Oh?
02:29 < fenn> "it's like mysugardaddy meets vampirefreaks. bam!"
02:29 < ebowden> What was #lesswrong? I forgot.
02:29 < fenn> rationality cult
02:30 < ebowden> What's your impression of it fenn?
02:30 < fenn> not that i have anything against rationality, but they seem to go in endless philosophical circles
02:30 < ebowden> And mosasaur, why are you looking for an alternative?
02:31 < fenn> "my ultra meta counters your meta and raises it to the nth level of observed introspection!"
02:31 < ebowden> Oh, ok fenn.
02:31 < ebowden> LOL
02:33 < mosasaur> ebowden: I kind of miss gwern, it would be nice to have them here but without all the star eyed followers (except me ofc)
02:33 < ebowden> LOL
02:33 < ebowden> So, how was gwern?
02:34 < fenn> excessively rigorous in analysis
02:34 < ebowden> Ok.
02:34 < fenn> you saw http://gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ
02:34 < ebowden> What exactly did he do?
02:35 < ebowden> Ah, right.
02:35 < mosasaur> ~ Maybe like paperbot but giving relatively short summaries in the channel
02:35 < ebowden> Well, nice.
02:36 < ebowden> So, anyone on currently who does any kind of science?
02:36 < ebowden> (As in, who is not AFK.)
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02:36 < jrayhawk> .title
02:36 < yoleaux> Dual N-Back FAQ
02:36 < ebowden> *(On as in, who is not AFK.)
02:37 < fenn> jrayhawk: not exactly enlightening if you don't know what Dual N-Back means either
02:37 < jrayhawk> true.dat
02:38 < ebowden> Oh, jrayhawk, did I ask what it was you did here? I'm awfully forgetful today.
02:38 < jrayhawk> that's some brain-trauma level forgetfulness
02:38 < ebowden> Well, I was distracted.
02:39 < ebowden> And I had to shut down my computer.
02:39 < fenn> the functional prepositions for being connected to an IRC channel: in, on, at, around, with, of?
02:39 < jrayhawk> http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/100_2631.JPG this is what i do
02:39 < ebowden> Thanks.
02:39 < ebowden> Ah, now I remember.
02:40 < ebowden> Haven't seen the image yet.
02:40 < ebowden> But I know what it is.
02:40 < fenn> what is it?
02:40 < fenn> a dark premonition?
02:40 < jrayhawk> a basilisk?
02:40 < ebowden> Computers, wire and hard drive hanging everywhere.
02:40 < jrayhawk> hooray
02:40 < ebowden> So yes, a dark premonition.
02:41 < ebowden> Sorry, monitors.
02:41 < ebowden> Stacked.
02:41 < fenn> a dark basil disk
02:41 < ebowden> Let's see.
02:41 < ebowden> Oh, yes, they were definitely stacked.
02:42 < fenn> do we have software that can describe images with words yet?
02:42 < fenn> i'm pretty sure the reverse was available several years ago
02:44 < fenn> what i mean: you upload an image url or file, it does some object recognition and compares to a labeled dataset, then builds a graph of object spatial relationships and serializes to english
02:45 < jrayhawk> that'd be cute. AFAIK spatial relationships from single images need manual human hinting at this point. More than one image, though, computers can almost always work out what's going on.
02:45 < fenn> then you can say, "find me that image of a parrot on that guy's head" and, having already indexed all your images, the correct one pops up
02:45 < mosasaur> sounds like streetview doing captcha's although I haven't looked into it
02:46 < fenn> or "images of parrots on heads" or whatever
02:46 < jrayhawk> if you can work out discreet objects, you can do reverse image searches into something like flickr that has an extensive tag interface
02:46 < jrayhawk> er, s/interface/database/
02:46 < fenn> but tags are human input and folksonomy and auto-tagging and wah
02:47 < fenn> i mean i know my tags would drive an AI insane
02:47 < mosasaur> maybe some offspring of alice x SHRUDLU
02:47 < jrayhawk> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oie1ZXWceqM
02:47 < jrayhawk> .title
02:47 < yoleaux> 3-Sweep: Extracting Editable Objects from a Single Photo, SIGGRAPH ASIA 2013
02:48 < mosasaur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHRDLU
02:48 < mosasaur> .title
02:48 < yoleaux> mosasaur: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.
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02:49 < jrayhawk> a worrying thing to crash on
02:49 < mosasaur> yoleaux: It's wikipedia, for christ sake
02:49 < fenn> 3-sweep is very cool, but way more sophisticated than the rough relationships i mean, like "hard drives and wires hanging everywhere"
02:52 < fenn> inverse of http://kottke.org/09/10/from-sketch-to-photo-instantly-this-is-insanely-awesome
02:54 < fenn> i think photosketch actually does something like what i'm describing as an intermediate step
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02:57 < fenn> welp it's been over one year, so long and happy trails academic paper and demo!
02:59 < mosasaur> jrayhawk: nice setup, but lose the armrests. You'll thank me later for it.
03:02 < jrayhawk> I've switched over to a standing desk anyway.
03:02 < mosasaur> Oh wait, does that chair even rotate?
03:02 < jrayhawk> yes
03:05 < mosasaur> I tried standing desks but my feet aren't up to it, a pole to stabilize or lean on to helped a lot though, as did a somewhat spongy mat to stand on. By now I just use multiple chairs and tuck one foot in a lot (and switch which foot it is often).
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03:11 < fenn> "I used to have some pretty mysterious health issues related to muscle, joint, and nerve problems. When I first got them checked out, my doctor told me it was stress. I told him that I didn’t feel stressed out, but my dad agreed with the doctor, and said that I did have an “overactive imagination.” Eventually I began to believe that I really did stress out too much. Then I began stressing
03:11 < fenn> out about being stressed out. Then I found out I had Celiac’s disease."
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03:15 < mosasaur> I've got a chair in the sun on my balcony and an e-ink device for offline reading, and a very flat thing I can use to sit on in tailor's position.
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03:17 < mosasaur> fenn: I had the same kind of symptoms, but it turns out my body just doesn't like carbs anymore. I'm fine now.
03:18 < mosasaur> The only way to find out about such things, and many others, in the first place is to fast now and then, by the way.
03:22 < mosasaur> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7610583
03:22 < mosasaur> .title
03:22 < yoleaux> Processed foods that dilute protein content subvert our appetite control systems
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03:41 < fenn> this page is almost a self-parody of wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitting
03:42 < xmj> yoleaux: do you know many rational people that eat processed foods?
03:43 < nsh> .py print "no, i don't..."
03:43 < yoleaux> no, i don't...
03:43 < xmj> .py print "too easy."
03:43 < yoleaux> too easy.
03:44 < mosasaur> .py print 2**100
03:44 < yoleaux> 1267650600228229401496703205376
03:44 < mosasaur> :-)
03:45 < Adifex> .py print 2**101
03:45 < yoleaux> 2535301200456458802993406410752
03:45 < Adifex> well
03:45 < Adifex> it keeps going
03:46 < xmj> i wonder how much it'll take to crash the bot.
03:46 < xmj> or download an arbitrarily large number of random data.
03:49 < fenn> .py fork = lambda: fork(); fork(); print "meep?"
03:49 < yoleaux> NameError: global name 'fork' is not defined
03:49 < superkuh> Activity on the Open-rtms-list this week. That's rare.
03:49 < fenn> huh
03:50 < xmj> ha ha.
03:50 < fenn> fork=1; fork = lambda: fork(); fork();
03:50 < fenn> *bonk*
03:51 < nsh> .py is hosted on google app engine
03:51 < yoleaux> SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
03:51 < fenn> .py fork=1; fork = lambda: fork(); fork(); print "i have no idea what will happen now"
03:51 < yoleaux> NameError: global name 'fork' is not defined
03:52 < fenn> it out stupided me
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03:56 < mosasaur> .py a=1; print a
03:56 < yoleaux> 1
03:59 < fenn> .py a='print ".py" a'; print a
03:59 < yoleaux> print ".py" a
04:00 < fenn> eh that never would have worked anyway
04:01 < fenn> .py a='.py print ".py" a'; print a
04:01 < yoleaux> .py print ".py" a
04:01 < xmj> fenn: quine?
04:01 < fenn> no
04:01 < xmj> close
04:03 < fenn> i was trying to make it trigger itself to do something else
04:09 < fenn> alright how the fuck does this work
04:09 < fenn> .py "x='x=%s;x%%`x`';x%`x`"
04:09 < yoleaux> x='x=%s;x%%`x`';x%`x`
04:10 < fenn> python has backticks?
04:16 < fenn> backtick is repr() so it's the same as x='x=%s; x%%repr(x)'; x%repr(x) but that probably doesn't elucidate the structure
04:17 < mosasaur> .py import os; os.listdir('.')
04:19 < fenn> .botsnack
04:19 < yoleaux> :D
04:20 < mosasaur> .py import os; print os.listdir('.')
04:20 < yoleaux> ['BeautifulSoup.py', 'talis.xsl', 'pytz', 'service', 'feedparser.py', '_ah', 'index.yaml', 'xpath', 'unescape.py', 'simplejson', 'README.md', 'main.py', 'html2text.py', 'app.yaml', 'dateutil', 'html5lib', 'chardet']
04:20 < mosasaur> ah
04:20 < fenn> i'm surprised that worked
04:21 < fenn> .py print open('app.yaml').readlines()
04:21 < yoleaux> ['application: tumbolia\n', 'version: 1\n', 'runtime: python\n', 'api_version: 1\n', '\n', 'handlers:\n', '- url: /.*\n', '  script: main.py\n']
04:22 < fenn> In Douglas Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach, Tumbolia is "the land of dead hiccups and extinguished light bulbs", "where dormant software waits for its host hardware to come back up"
04:24 < fenn> Tumbolia is where dreamed characters go when the dreamer wakes up.
04:25 < fenn> .py print open('main.py').readlines()
04:25 < yoleaux> ['import wsgiref.handlers\n', '\n', 'from google.appengine.ext import webapp\n', '\n', 'from service import base\n', 'from service import mirror\n', 'from service import identica\n', 'from service import lastfm\n', 'from service import fact\n', 'from service import steps\n', 'from service import soccer\n', 'from service import stupid\n', 'from service import ticket\n', 'from service import unicode
04:25 < fenn> stupid?
04:27 < fenn> .py print stupid.__doc__
04:27 < yoleaux> NameError: name 'stupid' is not defined
04:27 < fenn> that's some other app, unrelated to the chatbot
04:28 < fenn> .py print py.__doc__
04:28 < yoleaux> NameError: name 'py' is not defined
04:28 < fenn> .py print service.py.__doc__
04:28 < yoleaux> NameError: name 'service' is not defined
04:28 < mosasaur> .py print dir()
04:28 < yoleaux> ['args', 'command', 'output', 'self']
04:29 < fenn> main.py is from https://github.com/nslater/oblique
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04:30 < fenn> .py print open('_ah').readlines()
04:30 < yoleaux> IOError: [Errno 21] Is a directory
04:31 < fenn> .py import os; print os.listdir('_ah')
04:31 < yoleaux> ['python_bytecode']
04:32 < mosasaur> .py print dir(self)
04:32 < yoleaux> ['__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', '__weakref__', 'delete', 'error', 'get', 'get_url', 'handle_exception', 'head', 'initialize', 'new_factory', 'ok', 'options', 'post', 'put', 'redirect', 'request', 'response', 'trace']
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04:33 < fenn> so the chatbot is constantly loading webpages? wtf
04:34 < mosasaur> .py print dir(command)
04:34 < yoleaux> ['__add__', '__class__', '__contains__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__eq__', '__ge__', '__getattribute__', '__getitem__', '__getnewargs__', '__getslice__', '__gt__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__le__', '__len__', '__lt__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__ne__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'capitalize', 'center', 'count', 'decode',
04:35 < xmj> fenn: i wonder if you could trick yoleaux into rm -rf /
04:35 < fenn> probably, but what's the point
04:36 < fenn> it's running in a minimal virtualized container
04:37 < xmj> "don't run things as root"
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04:37 < fenn> do you know how things like heroku work?
04:38 < fenn> or google app engine (which is what this is)
04:40 < fenn> .stupid https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine
04:41 < fenn> .stupid https://github.com/nslater/oblique/blob/master/service/stupid.py
04:41 < fenn> i don't get it
04:43 < fenn> "The solution we're creating is simple: an open-source filter software that can detect rampant stupidity in written English. This will be accomplished with weighted Bayesian or similar analysis and some rules-based processing, similar to spam detection engines."
04:43 < fenn> but the service went down a couple months ago i guess
04:45 < fenn> .stupid https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine
04:45 < xmj> I don't really care about those. Don't run things as root and stuff like rm -rf / won't even pass through.
04:46 < fenn> .stupid hmm
04:47 < fenn> i think stupidfilter.org is not working correctly or at all
04:49 < fenn> "Your application runs within its own secure, reliable environment that is independent of the hardware, operating system, or physical location of the server."
04:49 < fenn> so basically you are trying to hack google's public-facing infrastructure. good luck with that
04:53 < fenn> and even then, any google employee can instantiate a few thousand servers with a single command, so i still don't see the point
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04:57 < fenn> .fact
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05:02 < fenn> .mirror
05:03 < fenn> .mirror adar whee
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05:06 < fenn> i guess the lesson here is that you shouldn't design anything around web services and expect it to last more than a few years
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05:11 < fenn> .internet foo
05:15 < fenn> .py print args
05:15 < yoleaux> ('/print%20args', 'print%20args')
05:16 < fenn> .py print locals
05:16 < yoleaux> <built-in function locals>
05:16 < fenn> .py print locals()
05:16 < yoleaux> {'output': <StringIO.StringIO instance at 0x35d0a467507a16d0>, 'self': <service.py.Main object at 0x35d0a46750b658a8>, 'args': ('/print%20locals%28%29', 'print%20locals%28%29'), 'command': 'print locals()'}
05:16 < fenn> .py print globals()
05:16 < yoleaux> {'load': <function load at 0x35d0a46750b79a18>, 'text': <function text at 0x35d0a46750b793a8>, 'codecs': <module 'codecs' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_dist/lib/python2.5/codecs.py'>, 'datetime': <module 'datetime' (built-in)>, 'api': <module 'google.appengine.api' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_lib/versions/1/google/appengine/api/__init__.py'>, 'encodings': <module 'e
05:17 < fenn> .py print globals()['uris']
05:17 < yoleaux> KeyError: 'uris'
05:18 < mosasaur> .py import sys; print sys.argv
05:18 < yoleaux> ['']
05:18 < ebowden> Oh, have I asked, what does ParahSailin do here?
05:18 < fenn> ParahSailin is the registered snarkmaster
05:19 < fenn> .py print uris
05:19 < yoleaux> NameError: name 'uris' is not defined
05:19 < fenn> .py print dir()
05:19 < yoleaux> ['args', 'command', 'output', 'self']
05:19 < fenn> huh.
05:19 < ebowden> What apart from snarkiness?
05:20 < fenn> i don't remember, sorry.
05:20 < fenn> .logs
05:20 < mosasaur> .py print globals()
05:20 < yoleaux> {'load': <function load at 0x35d0a46750b79a18>, 'text': <function text at 0x35d0a46750b793a8>, 'codecs': <module 'codecs' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_dist/lib/python2.5/codecs.py'>, 'datetime': <module 'datetime' (built-in)>, 'api': <module 'google.appengine.api' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_lib/versions/1/google/appengine/api/__init__.py'>, 'encodings': <module 'e
05:20 < fenn> gnusha: bookmark
05:21 < fenn> ebowden: you can come up with entertaining theories based on the links ve posts: http://gnusha.org/logs/parah.txt
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05:22 < ebowden> Oh thanks.
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05:25 < mosasaur> If we only had a way to make it print things in consecutive posts, so that it wouldn't get clipped.
05:26 < mosasaur> something like gwern(x)
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05:28 < fenn> ebowden: probably something in biotech or academic synthetic bio lab
05:29 < ebowden> What would probably be something in biotech?
05:29 < ebowden> Sorry, I've missed something, I don't mean to frustrate.
05:29 < fenn> parahsailin's professed profession
05:30 < ebowden> Oh, ok.
05:30 < ebowden> Thank's fenn.
05:30 < fenn> mosasaur: the problem is that the .py function is locally scoped so you can't really see anything
05:30 < ebowden> Sorry, I don't mean to be exasperating.
05:31 < FourFire> mosasaur, I'd use gwern(x)
05:31 < fenn> is that some hot new nootropic
05:31 < fenn> all the cool kids are using gwern, dude
05:31 < FourFire> ;P
05:32 < ebowden> LOL
05:32 < FourFire> fenn incase you're serious: gwern.net
05:32 < ebowden> I wonder if someone will ever come out with a nootropic that gives you the voice of the Ginger Bread Man from Shrek.
05:32 < fenn> if you thought i was being funny you should read it again
05:34 < fenn> .speak woof woof
05:34 < fenn> i think a lot of these services are just turned off
05:34 < ebowden> Oh, no, I didn't, It just seemed appropriate.
05:35 < ebowden> *it
05:36 < ebowden> I didn't mean to sound mean, sorry about that.
05:36 < fenn> nevermind. some things you either get it or you don't
05:43 < fenn> .py foo=open('main.py'); foo.read(800); print foo.readlines()
05:43 < yoleaux> ['e import jargon\n', '\n', 'uris = [\n', '  ("^/$", base.Index),\n', '  ("^/mirror(/.*?)?", mirror.Main),\n', '  ("^/identica(/(.*?))?(/(.*?))?/?", identica.Main),\n', '  ("^/lastfm(/(.*?))?(/(.*?))?/?", lastfm.Main),\n', '  ("^/fact(/(.*?))?/?", fact.Main),\n', '  ("^/soccer(/(.*?))?/?", soccer.Main),\n', '  ("^/steps(/(.*?))?/?", steps.Main),\n', '  ("^/stupid(/(.*?))?/?", stupid.Main),\n', '
05:47 < fenn> .twit fakeeliezer
05:49 < mosasaur> fenn: now make it post it as a pastie somewhere
05:50 < fenn> .py from service import twit; twit.Main.get('fakeeliezer')
05:50 < yoleaux> TypeError: unbound method get() must be called with Main instance as first argument (got str instance instead)
05:50 < mosasaur> or better, let it read some source from a pastie
05:50 < fenn> .py from service import twit; twit.Main().get('fakeeliezer')
05:50 < yoleaux> AttributeError: 'Main' object has no attribute 'response'
05:50 < fenn> oh ffs
05:53 < fenn> .py from google.appengine.ext import webapp; foo=webapp.RequestHandler(); from service import twit; twit.Main(foo).get('fakeeliezer')
05:53 < yoleaux> TypeError: default __new__ takes no parameters
05:54 < fenn> yoleaux: okay you can just go to hell
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05:57 < fenn> .py from google.appengine.ext import webapp; foo=webapp.RequestHandler(); from service import twit; twit.Main.get(foo, 'fakeeliezer')
05:57 < yoleaux> TypeError: unbound method get() must be called with Main instance as first argument (got RequestHandler instance instead)
05:58 < fenn> so much for duck typing
05:58 < ebowden> Fenn, did someone program yoleaux to feel hatred?
05:59 < mosasaur> .py from service import twit; print dir(twit)
05:59 < yoleaux> ['Main', '__builtins__', '__compiled__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', 'api', 'base', 'fetchbyID', 'format', 'json', 're', 'urllib']
06:00 < mosasaur> .py from service import twit; print dir(twit.fetchbyID)
06:00 < yoleaux> ['__call__', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', '__get__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__name__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'func_closure', 'func_code', 'func_defaults', 'func_dict', 'func_doc', 'func_globals', 'func_name']
06:00 < ebowden> Anyway, now we all know about this neurofeedback thing, if it were transferable, what would you be using it for fenn?
06:02 < mosasaur> .py from service import twit; print twit.fetchbyID('fakeeliezer')
06:02 < yoleaux> could not fetch tweet by ID
06:03 < ebowden> (Well, we all means; "A select group of people on here who read the article. But you know what I mean.)
06:04 < fenn> i maintain that there's nothing special going on, they just said the same thing in two languages as far as the brain is concerned
06:05 < ebowden> Well, yes.
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06:06 < ebowden> But it might allow us to do some things we previously couldn't do.
06:09 < fenn> mosasaur: i think twit.Main gets called when Phenny (i hate that name) contacts the webapp running in google app engine and it parses the url of the request.. i think it's time for bed for me though
06:09 < ebowden> Oh, goodnight fenn.
06:10 < mosasaur> night fenn. It was a nice pair coding session ;-)
06:11 < FourFire> ebowden, which neurofeedback thing?
06:11 < FourFire> link?
06:11 < ebowden> Oh, one sec FourFire.
06:12 < ebowden> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf
06:12 < ebowden> There we are.
06:12 < FourFire> I've interested in neurofeedback ever since I somehow got control over my heartbeat, once, but I'm not sure about any current consumer level technology.
06:14 < ebowden> Basically might be useful for 'training' areas that would normally be fairly immune from 're-wiring' due to the development of task specific strategies.
06:15 < FourFire> interesting
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08:14 <@ParahSailin> fenn: no, i have forsworn snark
08:19 < ebowden> So, you're into biotech? :D
08:22 < ebowden> ParahSailin?
08:23 <@ParahSailin> oh i do bioinformatics
08:23 < ebowden> Oh?
08:24 < ebowden> What exactly is that, if you'll forgive my asking?
08:25 <@ParahSailin> https://www.eurekagenomics.com i work for these guys
08:25 < ebowden> Oh, ok.
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08:28 < ebowden> So, is part of what you do sequencing genomes, and figuring out better ways to sequence genomes?
08:29 < ebowden> ?
08:31 <@ParahSailin> mostly finding useful things to do with next gen sequencers other than sequencing genomes
08:31 < ebowden> ParahSailin?
08:32 <@ParahSailin> cow genotyping is one
08:32 < ebowden> Oh,sorry.
08:32 < ebowden> Didn't show your response.
08:32 < ebowden> Ok.
08:33 < ebowden> So, you get to publish much?
08:35 <@ParahSailin> not at all
08:35 < ebowden> Seems the case when people go private.
08:37 < ebowden> There are a surprising number of highly qualified people here.
08:37 < ebowden> So, why did you come here?
08:39 < ebowden> (As in, join this chan.)
08:40 < ebowden> Not meant in a snarky way, just curious.
08:41 <@ParahSailin> a friend told me about it
08:41 < ebowden> That's how I got here too.
08:42 < ebowden> What is it this place does that takes your fancy?
08:44 < ebowden> Am I prying a nit too much?
08:45 < chris_99> you guys may possibly be interested in these photos http://www.shinsekai-th.com/en/photo.php he's somehow preserved creatures, but dyed them in pyschedelic colours
08:46 < ebowden> Wow.
08:46 < ebowden> That is so neat.
08:46 < cluckj> nice
08:47 < chris_99> if anyone happens to be in Austria, you can go see them in a cool science/art place called ars electronica
08:48 < ebowden> I do not.
08:48 <@ParahSailin> ebowden: no, im just occupied atm
08:49 < ebowden> Oh, ok, thanks.
08:49 < ebowden> *bit
08:49 < chris_99> so random question, theres no such thing as a DIY mass spectrometer is there?
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08:53 < cluckj> sort of
08:54 < cluckj> you can theoretically build one with an old CRT but risk nuking yourself
08:55 < chris_99> with a CRT? sounds interesting, do you have any links with that
08:55 < cluckj> might be easier to hit craigslist
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09:00 < cluckj> no links
09:01 < chris_99> alas, i'll do some googling, but first i must forage for food
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09:27 <@kanzure> fenn: re: serotonin and dopamine hammer-nail syndrome, i've been calling that neurotransmitter reductionism
09:28 < nsh> a not-particularly-special case of humans are stupid
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09:34 <@kanzure> .py print globals().keys()[0:10]
09:34 < yoleaux> ['load', 'text', 'codecs', 'datetime', 'api', 'encodings', 'operator', 'path', 'dateutil', 'Main']
09:48 <@kanzure> what's the difference between sleeping pods, body bags and the one humans take camping?
09:50 <@kanzure> "if you buy now, you'll get not one but TWO body bags"
09:51 <@kanzure> brought to you by the body bag corporation
09:54 <@kanzure> i wonder if you can request a body bag with an oxygen supply or air hole
09:55 < nsh> or maybe a nitrous-oxide supply
09:55 < nsh> i get oxygen for free
09:55 <@kanzure> in a body bag?
09:55 <@kanzure> usually they zip those up yo
09:56 < nsh> i'm usually on the outside yo
09:56 < nsh> usually...
09:56 < nsh> i assume forensic body-bags aren't really designed for human comfort
09:56 < nsh> mostly keeping the ick on the inside
09:56 < nsh> and minimizing contamination
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11:02 <@kanzure> "Hall’s Law: the maximum complexity of artifacts that can be manufactured at scales limited only by resource availability doubles every 10 years."
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11:52 < Allah>  
11:57 < mosasaur> .py a=file('gwern.py','w'); a.write("print 'hi'\n");a.flush();import gwern
11:57 < yoleaux> IOError: invalid mode: w
12:03 <@kanzure> "computational paranoia: the generative production of paranoid delusions or thoughts from simple models"
12:05 < Allah> thats what meth is for
12:05 < Allah> and/or religion
12:18 < nsh> .py open("/proc/1/cmdline").read()
12:18 < yoleaux> IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/proc/1/cmdline'
12:19  * nsh bets GAE engineers spent more time thinking about this than he can be bothered to
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12:41 <@kanzure> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Octopus_shell.jpg
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12:51 -!- Allah is now known as GoatStimulator
12:52 <@kanzure> http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-20/peak-smuggling-indian-has-12-gold-bars-removed-his-stomach "While US central bankers seem to believe that you can eat iPads, it seems one Indian fellow has taken the ongoing restrictions on gold imports, owning, or transacting in India to a whole new level. As we have noted previously - have led to an epidemic of smuggling as Indians continue to horde the precious metal (the only true source of ...
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12:52 <@kanzure> ... financial security in their view) by any means possible. As The BBC reports, 12 bars of gold have been removed from the stomach of a 63-year-old businessman in the Indian capital Delhi."
12:53 < GoatStimulator> 12 gold bars
12:53 < GoatStimulator> ....
12:53 < GoatStimulator> ive heard about people finding random gold bars in airplanes lately
12:53 < GoatStimulator> must be hideing them up their arse
12:54 < GoatStimulator> thats almost 150lbs of gold
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12:58 <@kanzure> "doc, my gold bars are feeling sorta funny today"
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13:22 < streety> As fantastic as it would be for someone to be walking around with 150 lb of gold in their stomach in this case the bars were somewhat smaller. Just 14 oz total
13:22 < streety> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27076019
13:22 <@kanzure> party pooper
13:23 < streety> Seems like it would be a lot simpler switching out gold plated items for solid gold items
13:24 < streety> as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfinger_%28film%29
13:25 < justanotheruser> If you had 150lbs of gold in your stomach, i would assume you would probably be normalish in size but 300lbs. Now I want a picture.
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13:37 < jrayhawk> colonic smuggling seems one hell of a lot safer and easier and cheaper
13:39 <@kanzure> surely there's room inside the chest cavity or something
13:42 < FourFire> chest cavity stuff is dangerous
13:42 < GoatStimulator> if you turned someoen upside down and pumped liquid gold into their intestines through their anus i wonder how long theyd survive
13:42 < FourFire> liquid?
13:42 < GoatStimulator> we should find a test subject
13:42 <@kanzure> i'm pretty sure the nazis did that one
13:43 <@kanzure> or was that a porno
13:43 <@kanzure> you can see how i might get the two mixed up
13:47 < streety> if by liquid gold you mean molten then I'm guessing not long
13:48 < cluckj> or colloidal
13:48 < cluckj> you'd get heavy metal poisoning pretty quickly
13:49 < streety> Difficult to recover as well
13:52 <@kanzure> "In a well-factored system, the cost of adding a new feature should place you in less debt than writing the same code from scratch, depending on how much of the existing system you are able to reuse, or refactor to allow the feature to be added. Even if there is no chance to reuse code, the patterns of the existing system can be reused to reduce the number of design decisions you have to make."
13:52 <@kanzure> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DesignDebt
13:57 <@kanzure> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TechnicalFutures
13:57 <@kanzure> "A former colleague of mine (http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ensjbb/) introduced me to this idea when we were working on a CIM project that required the introduction of computer networking on the shop floor of an engineering factory (in 1990 this was quite exciting). We knew that it was TheRightThingToDo? but the investment appraisal models used in engineering factories at the time required something more solid than gut feeling. Jerry developed an ...
13:57 <@kanzure> ... analogy with the financial futures markets."
13:57 <@kanzure> "The idea is that you can pay a small amount of money now to buy the opportunity to do something later (usually at a specified price). If you choose not to do the thing later, then your money is lost. If you exercise your option, then getting the benefit for the previously specified price constitutes a return on your investment of the option price earlier on. (This concept should be fairly familiar to most of us in the industry, now that ...
13:57 <@kanzure> ... share options are a standard form of incentive.)"
13:57 <@kanzure> "If you want to invest in some technology (let's say for example a refactoring project, or a clean but more expensive first write), you can sometimes justify the expenditure by explaining that it will give you the potential to take on tasks or projects that would otherwise be impossible or more difficult/expensive. Potential is worth money. The financial markets understand this, investors in technology start-ups understand this, and software ...
13:57 <@kanzure> ... professionals ought to understand it too. -- DominicCronin"
13:57 < cpopell> I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of studies on this
13:58 <@kanzure> i haven't seen a satisfactory treatment of technical debt, ever
13:58 < cpopell> well, from the opposite perspective, the cost adding features during different stages of projects
14:00 <@kanzure> what about it
14:00 < cpopell> seems related to the long paragraph you just posted
14:01 <@kanzure> that's not enough for me to figure out what you're trying to communicate
14:01 < cpopell> I'm communicating poorly and will return to my shame-hole until I figure out how to concretize the thought I am failing to express.
14:02 <@kanzure> k
14:30 <@kanzure> Customer: I need a program to do foobar, and I need it now. I don't care about quality.
14:30 <@kanzure> Me: In that case, I'm already done. Just run "foobar.exe" on your machine. That'll be $100,000.
14:30 <@kanzure> Customer: When I type "foobar.exe", I get "File Not Found".
14:30 <@kanzure> Me: Well, obviously I had to leave a few errors in to meet your aggressive schedule. I'll be happy to fix them, for a price.
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14:30 <@kanzure> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FirstLawOfProgramming
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14:32 <@kanzure> "To me, this seems somewhat absurd regardless of your DefinitionOfQuality?, as it means that arbitrarily small time project time scale (e.g. 1 second) would lead to inversely proportionally high quality. In the limit, this leads to the logical conclusion that not doing a project gives the highest possible quality solution, which I'm not sure many customers seeking a high quality solution would accept."
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14:38 < xentrac> I think someone talked to me in here days ago that I didn't see, it scrolled off my scrollback
14:39 <@kanzure> there are logs here: http://gnusha.org/logs/
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14:46 <@kanzure> 2014-03-22 [23:44:20] <dpk> (openssl was vetted, it came back HIV-positive)
14:47 < xentrac> 01:05 < ParahSailin> extremely specific
14:47 < xentrac> 01:05 < fenn> um, yeah. it kills the tuberculosis, not you.
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14:48 < xentrac> the problem is that the phage therapy that kills your tuberculosis won't kill somebody else's tuberculosis, I think, and that's the "extreme specificity" problem
14:48 < xentrac> this doesn't fit very well into the clinical trial framework
14:49 <@ParahSailin> or even kills certain subpopulations but not everything
14:53 < nsh> or even kills all humons
14:53 < nsh> converts earth into phage fairground
14:54 < yashgaroth> also TB being mostly intracellular seems like it would complicate phage therapy
14:54 < yoleaux> 06:10Z <fenn> yashgaroth: why did DTRA tell you to stop myostatin research? did they explain their rationale? is it explained somewhere? honestly this seems like something DARPA would be interested in developing, not trying to squash (unless they already secretly have it)
14:54 < yashgaroth> botsnack
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14:57 < yashgaroth> oh fenn if you read the logs, they didn't tell me to stop
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14:59 < xentrac> it seems like a reasonable substitute for clinical trials might be fine-grained tracking of an individual patient's biological response
15:00 < xentrac> levels of a few thousand key chemicals in their blood or CSF or what have you
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15:02 < dingo> http://1984.ws/nhgame.txt
15:02 < dingo> my best game of nethack in a long while
15:02 < dingo> this is my year man, i can feel it
15:02 < dingo> i'll beat this stupid game
15:02 <@kanzure> you've been preparing for this all your life
15:02 <@kanzure> (don't fuck it up)
15:06 < xentrac> thanks for the logs, kanzure
15:06 <@kanzure> a land of oz and weirdness
15:10 < xentrac> ParahSailin: right, exactly
15:10 < xentrac> dingo: cool
15:11 <@ParahSailin> i guess that was seen as snarky
15:11 < xentrac> fenn: I don't understand what you mean about the laser beam and the guide stars and the mylar blanket and the phased microphone array
15:15 < xentrac> dingo: why do you maintain wands of striking with charges?  I have the impression that they're sort of weak; is that not true?
15:15 < xentrac> similarly magic missile
15:16 <@kanzure> does a chemical reaction require a clinical trial? there are many alternatives
15:16 < xentrac> that's quite an array of items there
15:16 < xentrac> kanzure: I think that if you're going to use the chemical reaction to treat diseases, the FDA will demand a clinical trial of you
15:17 <@kanzure> insert random utilitarian "save as many people as possible" bullshit here as excuse to bypass FDA
15:17 <@kanzure> (i don't feel very strongly about that particular argument, which is why i am not bothering to elaborate on it)
15:17 <@kanzure> although i do feel strongly that there exists reasons to not care about the FDA
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15:19 < dingo> xentrac: actually just combining random crap to polypile at that moment
15:20 < xentrac> dingo: aha, I see
15:21 < xentrac> kanzure: the FDA provides the useful function of letting people know which drugs are real and which ones are fake better than the pre-FDA market did
15:21 < xentrac> perhaps a different social institution would work better
15:22 <@kanzure> whether or not the FDA agrees about (say) a simple chemical reaction does not tell me about the underlying reality
15:22 <@kanzure> same goes for other possible social institutions
15:24 < xentrac> oh, I see
15:24 <@kanzure> i agree that there is a problem regarding "authority" and "knowledge diffusion" or something, but i'm not sure that's the same problem as "this physical reaction is really happening"
15:24 < xentrac> I didn't realize you were talking about epistemology
15:24 < xentrac> I thought you were talking about the practicalities of making phage therapy available to people
15:25 <@kanzure> there are certain treatments or uh interventions that are much easier to measure on an individual n=1 scale, although i could imagine entire classes of problems that will always require large "clinicial" trials
15:25 < xentrac> I think it's clear that phage therapy, like surgery, is often effective
15:25 < cluckj> iirc you can still get caplets of phages in russia to treat bacterial infection
15:26 < xentrac> what, like over-the-counter phage therapy?
15:26 < xentrac> I thought you had to go to a clinic so they could figure out which phage to use
15:27 < cluckj> yes
15:27 <@kanzure> xentrac: a curious artifact of the internet, http://web.archive.org/web/20130703235206/https://www.opencures.org/about
15:28 <@kanzure> his plan was to use medical tourism as a financial vehicle for overseas stem cell and other work
15:29 <@kanzure> as a way to route around the FDA
15:29 <@kanzure> i guess it's not the best thing i could possibly link to though, there's a bunch of holes in his execution
15:30 <@kanzure> like delicious swiss cheese
15:32 < da_shirlz_HBIC_> paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3119260/
15:32 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c7024f152d5206fd0a213a15d65b2c4e.txt
15:32 <@kanzure> ncbi often doesn't host content, just abstracts
15:32 < xentrac> medical tourism is a good idea
15:33 < da_shirlz_HBIC_> danke
15:33 < FourFire> "insert random utilitarian "save as many people as possible" bullshit here as excuse to bypass FDA" only if you know that it works, for sure
15:34 <@kanzure> what part of my unwillingness to elaborate that thought was incomprehensible
15:34 <@kanzure> there are very obvious problems to it
15:35 < da_shirlz_HBIC_> I think working around the FDA only creates programs to benefit those with the resources to do so. If the idea is a better world for all, you must work to change the establishment.
15:35 <@kanzure> and then you start to sound like david pearce and that's going to end badly
15:48 < nsh> .wik David PEarce
15:48 < yoleaux> "Dave Pearce or David Pearce may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce
15:49 < nsh> .wik David Pearce wanker
15:49 < yoleaux> "Nicholas John "Nick" Griffin (born 1 March 1959) is a British politician, chairman of the British National Party (BNP) and Member of the European Parliament (MEP) for North West England." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin
15:49 < nsh> ahaha
15:49 < nsh> +1 googlepedia
15:51 < cpopell> this one nsh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce_(philosopher)
15:51 < nsh> oh, right
15:51 < cpopell> he also owns a bazillion domain names
15:51 < nsh> brain says "popular philosopher"
15:51 < nsh> which is braincode for twat
15:52 < nsh> paradise engineering wheeeeeee
15:52 < cpopell> he's basically for wireheading
15:52 < cpopell> via engineering society
15:53 < cpopell> 'The world's last aversive experience will be a precisely dateable event.'
15:53  * nsh frowns
15:54 < nsh> why do people take this sort of thing seriously? are they just terminologically dazzled or something?
15:54 <@kanzure> :)
15:55 < cpopell> https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ZKNIQOfy_V_tmI-uPNOh1m3cg99e2T0iKBRD3U4mFEc Grandroids dev journal btw
15:55 <@kanzure> i am glad i do not have to spell out why this guy is evil
15:55 < cpopell> he and Andre get along real well
15:56 < nsh> this guy is basically just an internet kook, only he had the luck to be educated at oxford and (presumably) well-connected enough to be humoured a lot
15:56 <@kanzure> but also some fundamentally bad philosophizing
15:57 <@kanzure> abolition of negative numbers
15:57 <@kanzure> someone get greg egan on the phone
15:58 <@kanzure> sorry i mean the space phone
16:00 < nsh> leave egan alone
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16:00 < nsh> he's a good chap
16:00 <@kanzure> maybe if i bug him enough he'll write more
16:00  * nsh smiles
16:00 < nsh> i complained to him once about using the trope "a gene for X"
16:00 < cpopell> gwern wanted to shank me for emailing Vernor Vinge
16:00 < nsh> he wasn't impressed
16:01 <@kanzure> what was the shankworthy email?
16:01 < cpopell> the fact I did it at all
16:01 < cpopell> he didn't care about content, possible delay of 5 minutes of a new Vinge novel was worth stabbing me over
16:05 <@kanzure> i think i ran into him once
16:05 < cpopell> I was supposed to do coffee with him at one point
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16:10 < cpopell> @monsterbarbsz Wrong Steve Grand? If you're looking for the gay country singer, that's a different Steve. I've acquired neither talent!
16:20 < FourFire> so http://reasonandmeaning.com/2014/04/17/the-fable-of-the-dragon-tyrant/
16:20 < FourFire> I like this, it will be a useful position for me to argue against deathists from
16:25 < catern> what a horrible blog post
16:26 <@kanzure> what makes it bad
16:26 < catern> why not just read the actual story instead of horribly summarizing it
16:26 < catern> he doesn't even link it
16:26 <@kanzure> is this about nick's short story?
16:26 <@kanzure> it was pretty short
16:26 < catern> yes
16:26 < catern> FourFire: here http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html
16:27 < FourFire> thanks
16:32 < FourFire> ok, this is odd, I am unsure as to where I was linked that from
16:32 < FourFire> I thought it was http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RationalFic, but I must be word blind or something
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16:36 < FourFire> I wonder how this is going to turn out: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/15/children-swipe-screen-toy-building-blocks-teachers
16:37 < FourFire> I'm no good example of academic achievement myself, but what about when they grow up?
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17:24 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCT_launch_vehicle#Super-heavy_lift_launch_vehicle
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17:44 < streety> it looks like each engine on the Raptor is about the same size as an entire  Falcon
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18:18 <@kanzure> https://github.com/bdpurcell/bully "Retrieve WPA/WPA2 passphrase from a WPS enabled acess point"
18:18 <@kanzure> "A readonly subversion clone of this project exists at"
18:19 <@kanzure> i thought it said "The radically subversive code of this project exists at"
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20:26 < QuantumG> RNA interference as a gene knockdown technique
20:29 < yashgaroth> k
20:29 <@kanzure> long boring video about facebook engineering stuff http://nerds.airbnb.com/move-fast-and-break-things/
20:30 < QuantumG> I have a fork right here.. I could just stab myself in the eye
20:31 < QuantumG> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1357272509001563
20:32 < QuantumG> no?
20:34 < QuantumG> fetch http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1357272509001563
20:34 < QuantumG> (randomly guessing command syntax from reading kanzure's pythong code now)
20:34 < yashgaroth> et voila http://staff.ustc.edu.cn/~shange/publications/10.pdf
20:35 < QuantumG> yeah, no shit.. how's the bot work?
20:35 < yashgaroth> paperbot http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1357272509001563
20:35 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ac73db52d5b0e94a56c5260a2f90f739.txt
20:35 < QuantumG> thank you! :)
20:36 < QuantumG> 'cause accepting /msgs would be too polite, obviously
20:37 <@kanzure> couldn't grab that one :(
20:38 < QuantumG> paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869867
20:38 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.copbio.2010.08.011
20:39 <@kanzure> wow his solution to static resource management is terrible
20:39 <@kanzure> his solution is to have each server with application code to have a connection to a static resource "database"
20:39 < QuantumG> neat
20:39 <@kanzure> to retrieve versions each time
20:39 <@kanzure> but he already has a cache in front of the application servers
20:40 < xmj> yashgaroth: ping
20:40 <@kanzure> i suppose if you don't want to leak versioning information to your clients then you'd use that solution
20:40 < yashgaroth> pong
20:40 < QuantumG> so anyway, let me stop being rude
20:40 < QuantumG> what are you up to these days kanzure?
20:40 <@kanzure> but if you use different filenames on the frontend for distributing cached assets..
20:41 <@kanzure> QuantumG: bitcoin things
20:44 < QuantumG> neat.. I sat through a lecture by a guy who claimed to be a crypto anarchist and used words like "agorism" like he knew what they meant.. afterwards, with beer in hand, it became apparent he didn't.
20:45 < QuantumG> protip: never try to explain how the blockchain works in under 10 minutes to an audience that doesn't know what a hashing function is.
20:46 <@kanzure> did he also explain what a hashing function is?
20:46 < QuantumG> he made the blender analogy
20:46 <@kanzure> you should have walked out
20:47 < QuantumG> thankfully, the "technical" discussion was at the end of the talk
20:47 < xmj> yashgaroth: ah never mind
20:47 < xmj> confusing people, early morning :o
20:49 < QuantumG> so, what bitcoin stuff?
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20:54 <@kanzure> oh man, this guy's description of "the push monitor script" is sad
20:54 <@kanzure> their deployment script in 2008 was "ssh into 200 machines, and then wait until the ssh processes hang"
20:54 <@kanzure> i thought that facebook had better ideas by that point
20:56 < justanotheruser> What do you guys think of metacademy.com?
20:56 < justanotheruser> Sorry, metacademy.org
20:56 < QuantumG> a sharing makes you an a-hole?
20:56 <@kanzure> a sharing?
20:57 < justanotheruser> Its got a really cool directed graph showing that the dependencies for every topic you want to learn
20:58 < cpopell> actually this is really cool
20:58 <@kanzure> holy crap his "hypershell" thing. giant php script that concatenates itself into a giant single file, then scp's itself to the servers, then executes itself on each of those servers.
20:58 <@kanzure> in 2008? is this seriously the best engineering talent they could come up with?
20:59 < QuantumG> http://metacademy.org/graphs/concepts/deep_belief_networks that's a nice output
21:00 <@kanzure> "symbolic regression", no results :(
21:00 < cpopell> I want to learn Taguchi based grey relational analysis someday
21:00 < justanotheruser> kanzure: it is very new and AI focused right now
21:01 < QuantumG> .. and like most AI stuff, has no idea that half the tools they want are typicalled called "statistics" by the rest of the world
21:01 < justanotheruser> Perhaps they can get some genetic programming soo n
21:02 < QuantumG> http://metacademy.org/search?q=t-test http://metacademy.org/search?q=ANOVA http://metacademy.org/search?q=f-distribution okay, I'm done now
21:02 < QuantumG> typicalled, that's a new word for ya
21:02 < justanotheruser> QuantumG: heh. It launched very recently.
21:03 < justanotheruser> Why does it say q=ANOVA, but display t-test?
21:03 < justanotheruser> Oh, 3 links, not 2
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21:04 < justanotheruser> I think it is a good website, it just needs to be populated. Definitely a better platform for learning that wikibooks
21:05 < QuantumG> yeah, that first link was nice
21:05 < QuantumG> the DBNs one
21:08 < cpopell> justanotheruser: wikibooks is good for concepts that aren't heavily present elsewhere
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21:18 < fenn> the problem with graphviz type thingies is the text labels are always too small
21:19 < cpopell> oh god
21:19 < cpopell> my old adviser is giving a talk at RPI
21:19 < cpopell> about the 'spiritual dimension of life'
21:20 < fenn> hey at least it's not wrong
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21:21 < QuantumG> I've read two books in the last month about physicists.. and both of them included some bong toking nonsense about spiritual life
21:21 < cpopell> my advisor was a megachristian, but he didn't bring it up much
21:22 < cpopell> http://jsamuel4.tripod.com/faith/index.html
21:23 < ebowden> Oh, hello QuantumG. What do you do?
21:23 < fenn> ebowden: please stop asking that. the most interesting people do all sorts of things
21:24 < QuantumG> "Beyond Uncertainty: Heisenberg, Quantum Physics, and The Bomb" was painful to read.. short version: Heisenberg was first naive (thought science would continue as normal under the NAZIs) then he was opportunistic (everyone smarter than him left Germany) and then went to his death bed thinking anyone still cared what he had to say.
21:24 <@kanzure> yeah, just do what any other sociopath would do: stalk them
21:24 < ebowden> Oh, ok, sorry fenn.
21:24 < fenn> stalking utilizes the same skills needed to learn anything else, so why not
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21:25 <@kanzure> 1h video about webkit rendering stuff http://nerds.airbnb.com/webkit-how-the-web-is-rendered/
21:25 < QuantumG> ebowden: I'm a software engineer with an interest in molecular biology, spaceflight and random other stuff.
21:25 < fenn> see, i could have said that
21:25 < ebowden> Are neat QuantumG.
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21:26 < ebowden> Ah, neat QuantumG.
21:26 < QuantumG> how 'bout yourself
21:26 < fenn> I'm a software engineer with an interest in molecular biology, spaceflight and random other stuff.
21:26 < ebowden> I recently turned 18m, and I'm still in high school.
21:26 < ebowden> I recently turned 18, and I'm still in high school.
21:27 < QuantumG> fenn, you're a crazy bastard with too much free time
21:27 < ebowden> Want to go into biotech.
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21:27 < fenn> i'm investing sweat equity into my biotch startup
21:28 <@kanzure> "surely we will have had hired an expert at sharding by the time sharding becomes a /real/ problem" - instagram according to https://www.scribd.com/embeds/89025069/content?start_page=1&view_mode=scroll&access_key=key-1pkxvo7h7i8exflue17b
21:28 < QuantumG> are you attracting VC attention?
21:28 < fenn> QuantumG: you know the weird thing is, the more free time you have, the farther behind you get
21:29 < ebowden> QuantumG: My dream is to one day genetically engineer a talking dog and have wacky adventures with it.
21:29 <@kanzure> oh brother
21:29 <@kanzure> talking is overrated
21:29 <@ParahSailin> a glowing dog
21:29 <@kanzure> just go get a dog and go do those wacky adventures now
21:29 < QuantumG> no, he has to wait until after the war
21:30 < fenn> We weep for a bird's cry, but not for a fish's blood. Blessed are those with a voice. If the dolls also had voices, they would have screamed, "I didn't want to become human."
21:31 < ebowden> Kanzure: Talking dog wacky adventures, not regular dog wacky adventures.
21:32 < fenn> ebowden: do you ever worry that you have multiple personality disorder?
21:32 < ebowden> Never.
21:32 < QuantumG> I fear your most "wacky adventures" in biotech will be trying to find a job that doesn't make you want to kill yourself.. every few years if you stay in Australia.
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21:33 < ebowden> What is it about Australia and biotech?
21:34 < justanotheruser> Unless you get another job and do garage biotech yourself
21:34 < fenn> oh btw quantumg i wanted to apologize for how i made fun of bitcoin all those years ago when you introduced me to the idea. had any of us invested a whole $20 we'd be millionaires now
21:34 < QuantumG> fenn: tell me about it
21:34 < fenn> basically i misunderstood that mining would eventually end and thus no longer use up computational resources
21:34 <@kanzure> no
21:35 < fenn> i realize that the block chain continues to function to process transactions
21:35 < QuantumG> Australian government pours money into medical research, expecting it to take off.. it takes off.. Government pulls money from medical research expecting it to keep going, it crashes and burns.
21:35 <@kanzure> that still involves mining
21:35 < ebowden> Ah.
21:36 < justanotheruser> Does xcp put all tx in a bitcoin tx, or does it construct a merkle tree and put them all in one tx
21:36 < fenn> also there's a ratio of work invested to the value of currency in any currency system. the cost of a penny is much more than one cent
21:36 <@kanzure> i believe it's just structured data, justanotheruser
21:36 < justanotheruser> kanzure:
21:37 < justanotheruser> It does have a tx for each asset and such right?
21:37 <@kanzure> yes to issue a new asset type you must create and send a new bitcoin transaction
21:38 <@kanzure> http://www.blockscan.com/assetinfo.aspx?q=KANZURE
21:38 < justanotheruser> Oh, thats too bad maybe someone will make it more effecient
21:38 <@kanzure> there are a bunch of other problems with counterparty that i'm more interested in fixing first
21:38 <@kanzure> like the terrible packaging/installation
21:38 <@kanzure> iirc this is also how mastercoin works
21:40 < fenn> kanzure: is xcp your programmer stock share thing?
21:40 <@kanzure> xcp is counterparty
21:40 <@kanzure> at the moment i have been implementing it based on counterparty
21:41 < justanotheruser> Ideally every non bitcoin data store would be in a single transactions opreturn data as the merkle root
21:42 <@kanzure> ralph merkle is a pimp
21:42 < justanotheruser> s/datastore/proof of happening or consensus data
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21:42 < QuantumG> https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/7671-annxcp-counterparty-protocol-client-and-coin-built-on-bitcoin/
21:43 <@kanzure> fenn: just some weird stuff http://digitalinterface.blogspot.com/2014/03/strangecoin-proposal-for-nonlinear.html
21:43 < justanotheruser> The problem is that every piece of data would have to be produced in a way that all the networks agree that it was costly to include that data
21:44 <@kanzure> why?
21:44 < justanotheruser> Costly for the data creator maker I mean
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21:44 < fenn> uh, can't you just assign whatever cost you want
21:44 <@kanzure> why does it have to be costly to create a bitcoin transaction that gets accepted in the blockchain
21:44 < justanotheruser> Because otherwise it would.open them up to dos
21:44 < fenn> but what about "dos by billionaire"
21:44 <@kanzure> at minimum they are presently constrained by bitcoin transaction fees and inclusion rates
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21:45 < justanotheruser> Yeah, but if you ignore making it costly, you can just flood everyone on the network with data for free
21:45 < fenn> i mean you guarantee your data with some number of cpu cycles/bitcoins and that's what it's worth (as far as trust/verifiability goes at least)
21:45 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: because you can flood the blockchain?
21:45 -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:45 < fenn> like the spam blocking proposal based on e-mail stamps.. i forget what it was called
21:46 <@kanzure> hashcash
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21:46 < justanotheruser> kanzure: I could flood the me pool if I didn't need to include a fee
21:46 < justanotheruser> *mempool
21:46 <@kanzure> counterparty doesn't directly monitor the mempool
21:46 <@kanzure> it's actually using getrawtransaction based on historical blocks
21:46 <@kanzure> (getrawtransaction is one of the reasons why it's so stupidly slow at the moment)
21:46 < justanotheruser> But there is a counterparty mempool right?
21:47 <@kanzure> counterparty just asks the bitcoin client for transactions. if there's a reorg, it handles a reorg.
21:47 < fenn> no, not hashcash, this used dollars instead of cpu. you have to attach some certain number of dollars to get over a certain email inbox's threshold, and then they refund the money if they think it was not spam, so the spammers pay for each message
21:47 -!- QuantumG [0eca2431@gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.202.36.49] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
21:47 < fenn> except it's more like $.001 per email
21:48 <@kanzure> i have heard of many proposals like that but i don't remember seeing any implementations
21:48 < justanotheruser> kanzure: oh, I'm talking about if there was a merkle tree for it all. XCP tx are already costly because there is a btc fee
21:49 < fenn> since now bitcoins (invested CPU cycles, essentially) are currency, the difference is moot. thank you albert einstein for proving that matter equals information equals time equals money
21:49 < fenn> if i'm not making any sense please let me know
21:49 <@kanzure> 16:04 < maaku> jaekwon: start with this : http://macs.citadel.edu/rudolphg/csci604/ImpossibilityofConsensus.pdf
21:49 <@kanzure> 16:06 < jaekwon> no, no. that paper has restrictive priors that don't apply to what we can build, namely, that all processes are deterministic.
21:49 <@kanzure> 16:06 < jaekwon> see counter: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=806707
21:49 <@kanzure> 16:06 < jaekwon> intuitively, if that paper were correct, pow wouldn't work either.
21:49 <@kanzure> 16:09 < maaku> no pow works because the economic restriction provided by the 2nd law : even though you can't know you're in the consensus set, you can put a raw economic cost on the probability of you being tricked
21:49 <@kanzure> 16:09 < maaku> pow *fixes* the problem pointed out by this paper
21:50 <@kanzure> 16:29 < maaku> sipa, jaekwon: my physics-based understanding of bitcoin is that uses work to tie bitcoin consensus to a fundamentally scarce resource: entropy
21:50 <@kanzure> 16:30 < maaku> it is possible to use other physically scarce resource instead, but there is no alternative with the universal scarcity of entropy
21:50 <@kanzure> 16:35 < gmaxwell> An interesting observation is that if we had a true strong publically verifyable captcha— so that a human had to mine— you're still ultimately turning energy into proofs  (e.g. instead you could mine by having baby farms where you turn out more people to solve the captchas. :) )
21:50 <@kanzure> 16:37 < gmaxwell> but bitcoin itself solved an impossible problem by relaxing some constraints, so perhaps there are relaxations or changes that are just as useful but make other things work.
21:50 <@kanzure> 16:41 < maaku> i could be an AI trapped in a simulation with no knowledge of the outside world other than the foundational laws of physics, and from that be able to assert the validity of proof-of-work
21:50 < fenn> yeah pretty much
21:51 < fenn> money is just a shorthand for other stuff that actually exists
21:51 <@kanzure> years ago everyone was telling me that economists don't know anything
21:52 <@kanzure> suddenly with bitcoin all of the economists suddenly know that bitcoin isn't money
21:52 <@kanzure> sounds fishy to me
21:52 < fenn> uh, what?
21:52 < fenn> according to whom?
21:52 <@kanzure> i mean, the economists were telling me economists didn't know anything
21:52 <@kanzure> themselves
21:52 <@kanzure> sorry, important detail
21:52 < fenn> (who(?))
21:53 < fenn> well if the economist tells you he doesn't know anything, it's probably best to take his word for it
21:53 < fenn> there's some kind of circular logic flaw in there
21:53 <@kanzure> "origins of money" http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html
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21:54 < fenn> yeah i read that. wish i had read that when QuantumG brought up bitcoin
21:54 < fenn> kanzure> "origins of money" http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html
21:55 <@kanzure> is all this regret your way of asking me for bitcoin (or dogecoin?)
21:55 <@kanzure> because i need an address to send to
21:55 < fenn> it also explains a lot of weird human behaviors we don't typically associate with money
21:55 < fenn> hm actually nobody has sent me anything via dogecoin yet
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21:57 < dingo> you can have my dogecoin, i don't plan to use it
21:57 < dingo> i'll probobly just gamble it away
21:57 <@kanzure> didn't you get it by gambling in the first place?
21:57 <@kanzure> i guess that's appropriate then
21:57 < dingo> yup :)
22:00 <@kanzure> fenn: how about these?
22:00 <@kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Trust_%26_Clearing_Corporation
22:00 <@kanzure> http://www.deepcapture.com/the-story-of-deep-capture-part-2/
22:01 < fenn> okay somebody send me some DOGE!  DKTfJwrSdduubLT9aL3hoeiUq9Scj25wvp
22:03 < fenn> god actually the most scarce resource right now is tabs
22:03 < QuantumG> am I the only person who uses "group your tabs" in firefox?
22:04 < QuantumG> now that I think about it, I'm not sure this is even available in vanilla firefox
22:04 < fenn> i did but it didn't work so well beyond a certain number because they decided to re-invent the window manager in a non-resizable non-scrollable root window
22:04 <@kanzure> fenn: txid 3f2ce7491f4f319fc7a5e4c9c688f4f88460fdd4362bf1d59b3240d0fb001f41
22:05 < QuantumG> yeah
22:05 < fenn> it used to be an add-on but now is in vanilla firefox
22:05 <@kanzure> http://dogechain.info/tx/3f2ce7491f4f319fc7a5e4c9c688f4f88460fdd4362bf1d59b3240d0fb001f41
22:05 < QuantumG> ahh, cool
22:05 <@ParahSailin> why you need so many tabs, are your eyes multithreaded?
22:05 <@kanzure> because otherwise it takes too long to load the page again
22:06 <@kanzure> and also because i'll literally forget about the page if it's not in my (actual) queue
22:06 < QuantumG> multiple windows for multiple workflows works just fine too
22:07 < fenn> the problem is that tabs appear faster than they disappear, it's not that i "need" them
22:07 <@kanzure> huh i sent much fewer dogecoin than i intended to
22:07 < QuantumG> fenn: so, did you also discover the SpaceX is pretty nifty or what?
22:08 < fenn> QuantumG: well, seeing how they're making regular deliveries to ISS, that's pretty nifty
22:08 < fenn> i don't remember ever trashing spaceX
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22:08 < fenn> kanzure: wait, let me see if this thing actually works first
22:08 < QuantumG> I remember a friend of mine saying SpaceX would have a nice little business with the Falcon 1 but this Falcon 9 thing they're working on is never going to fly.
22:08 <@kanzure> already sent
22:08 <@kanzure> too late
22:10 < QuantumG> I also remember chatting with a SpaceX employee who said vertical landing was impossible with a Falcon 9 sized rocket.
22:10 < fenn> well i guess it worked. dunno why it says "Not yet redeemed" on dogechain.info
22:10 <@kanzure> takes a while for enough blocks to pass for a transaction to be considered 'confirmed'
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22:12 < dingo> haven't loaded by dogecoin wallet in a long while fenn, but when it synchronizes you got 3,336 your way, 3f2ce7491f4f319fc7a5e4c9c688f4f88460fdd4362bf1d59b3240d0fb001f41
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22:13 < fenn> awesome, i will buy a can of fish
22:14 < fenn> or whatever shibes eat
22:15 < fenn> guys is it insane to go to alaska and live on a sled and eat nothing but salmon
22:15 < dingo> it was educational for me, dogecoin, i might actually do BTC now that i know how to manage a wallet, didn't really care about it until dogecoin made it so trivially worthless to mess around with :-)
22:15 < dingo> you could do worse than salmon-only diet, anyway
22:16 < dingo> i like fishing so i wouldn't mind such a diet if i get to catch em
22:16 <@kanzure> yes it's crazy.
22:16 <@kanzure> and not the normal "oops i accidentally made a billion bucks" crazy
22:17 < dingo> fenn: http://dogechain.info/tx/0385cfc3f52251a66da3f2b64fa6fe8b8f20fd1531cd7361274bfdcb0cdb7a07
22:18 < fenn> just curious where does that number 2.76889537DOGE come from?
22:18 <@ParahSailin> thats e in base58
22:18 < dingo> oh i had two wallets
22:18 < dingo> i think that came from a "dog dish" site when i first got the dogecoin wallet -- a place that gives you a few free dogecoins
22:24 <@kanzure> fenn: technology dependency trees are probably wrong
22:24 < QuantumG> what's your opinion of the gene ontology?
22:25 <@kanzure> although it's intuitively true that you can't build a nuclear power plant from a pile of sticks and stones, that may not mean that you can draw a directed graph of technologies that do positively build other things
22:28 <@kanzure> QuantumG: what do you mean?
22:28 <@kanzure> ncbi's weirdo protein classification hierarchy?
22:29 < QuantumG> it's more than that, but yeah
22:29 < fenn> kanzure: is that a challenge?
22:30 <@kanzure> maybe
22:30 < fenn> didn't you just link to natural_nuclear_reactor
22:30 <@kanzure> don't think so
22:30 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor
22:31 < fenn> a nuclear reactor is one of the few things you can build out of a pile of rocks
22:31 <@kanzure> ffff
22:32 < fenn> also i don't really understand what you were trying to say. "because it may not be possible, it's not possible" ?
22:33 < QuantumG> I didn't really know what he was saying either
22:33 < QuantumG> "positively" threw me
22:33 <@kanzure> usually the decision to make a technology dependency tree is based on the fact that you can't just cram two pieces of matter together to get a particular technology
22:34 <@kanzure> so instead people sit there and think, well, then we can make up a tree or graph of technologies that are necessary to build other things
22:34 <@kanzure> based on the original fact, not based on additional understanding
22:34 < fenn> what original fact?
22:34 <@kanzure> "you can't just cram two pieces of matter together to get a particular technology"
22:35 < QuantumG> just invent the international trading port and you're done
22:35 <@kanzure> QuantumG: "it's somebody else's problem"?
22:35 < QuantumG> being facetious, of course
22:36 < fenn> let me state two facts. 1) all technology that currently exists was made from what at one point was sticks and stones and puppy dog tails. 2) intermediate steps between "nature" and "product" also count as something
22:37 < fenn> whether you slice it as a process or a tree of products is somewhat arbitrary
22:37 <@kanzure> uh sure, all the material in the planet's crust counts as sticks and puppy dog tails
22:37 < fenn> (i actually forgot what fact #2 was supposed to be)
22:38 <@kanzure> there are many possible routes for the construction of a certain artifact
22:38 <@ParahSailin> the GVCS has a pretty cool tech tree graphic
22:38 <@kanzure> i wouldn't trust anything that GVCS produces
22:38 <@kanzure> extremely sloppy thinking everywhere
22:38 <@kanzure> but also i'd like to see it
22:38 < QuantumG> but at least they made that compressed earth brick machine
22:39 <@kanzure> ah yes their legacy..
22:39 < QuantumG> yup, took 'em long enough, but they got - somewhere
22:39 < fenn> i made some compressed earth bricks, it's actually much more impressive of a material than you'd expect
22:39 < QuantumG> no sure how useful that somewhere is
22:39 < fenn> basically like concrete once it cures
22:40 < QuantumG> yup, petrol + dirt = bricks, who knew?
22:40 < fenn> the persians
22:41 < QuantumG> they knew about the petrol?
22:41 < fenn> what's interesting about GVCS is they are one of the few hackerspaces with a specific mission
22:41 < QuantumG> or did they use elephants or something?
22:41 < fenn> factor e farm i mean
22:42 <@kanzure> has anyone actually drawn a valid technology tree of any size
22:42 <@ParahSailin> sid meier did
22:42 <@ParahSailin> you gotta do ceremonial burial first
22:42 <@kanzure> ugh
22:42 < fenn> what do you mean valid? freitas wrote a whole nasa technical report, but it's mostly fantasy sketches
22:42 <@kanzure> iirc, that did not include an actual technology tree
22:43 < QuantumG> there's those books on how to make your own manual machine shop tools
22:43 <@kanzure> those also don't have trees
22:43 <@kanzure> wah
22:43 < QuantumG> .. where he uses his home built lathe to make his home built whatever
22:43 < fenn> i ought to know the answer to this question but i don't know
22:43 <@kanzure> QuantumG: you're thinking of fenn
22:43 < QuantumG> I thought it had a tree in the start.. or maybe it was the end..
22:43 < fenn> QuantumG: i built the foundry and the lathe and then some
22:44 < fenn> there's no graphical diagram if that's what he means
22:44 < QuantumG> oh, am I?
22:44 < QuantumG> could be.
22:44 < fenn> also the order you build things is suboptimal
22:45 < fenn> should start with the gas fired furnace, then make crucibles, then build a shaper, then do the milling machine (which is a lathe too) and then you're done
22:45 < fenn> i guess you do the gas engines after that
22:45 <@ParahSailin> well if you do bronze working and currency first, you can get trade and use caravans to accelerate research to republic
22:46 <@kanzure> the game's model is most likely wrong
22:46 < fenn> nah lets just warp in a mothership in exchange for magic crystals
22:46 <@kanzure> http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/files/1/civ4techtree92005vanilla_original.jpg
22:46 <@kanzure> pottery leads to writing. what the fucking shit.
22:46 <@ParahSailin> nah, alphabet leads to writing
22:46 <@kanzure> look at the chart man
22:47 <@ParahSailin> what is this, civ4 shit
22:47 <@kanzure> "animal husbandry" watching animals do it "them" style leads to writing
22:47 < fenn> "meditation" is a technology?
22:47 <@kanzure> :\
22:47 <@ParahSailin> i get that they had to switch things up to sell more games, but the civ2/freeciv tech tree is canon
22:48 <@kanzure> http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100524174238/freeciv/images/a/a0/Technology.gif
22:48 < fenn> i mean, i dunno, maybe it is.
22:48 < QuantumG> they gotta fit the stupid spiritual shit in somewhere otherwise they can't justify the various forms of brutality ascribed to government, which is what the author thinks "civilization" is about.
22:48 <@kanzure> "philosophy -> medicine" this is just BS abstract crap
22:49 <@kanzure> why is everyone convinced that tech trees are correct or useful
22:49 < fenn> technology is similar to memes
22:49 < fenn> kanzure those game trees probably look nothing like real tech trees
22:50 < fenn> i mean steel production would point everywhere
22:50 < fenn> i can't even find steel on here
22:50 <@ParahSailin> philosophy gets you a free tech if you get it first
22:51 <@ParahSailin> fenn: iron working, yo, just need warrior code and bronze working and you're good to build legions
22:51 < fenn> okay but iron isn't steel
22:52 < QuantumG> I thought Foundry was in there
22:52 <@ParahSailin> ok if you want steel, you need industrialization and electricity
22:52 < fenn> oh it's in the center near the top half,
22:52 <@kanzure> "well obviously instead of a technology tree what we really need is to draw a technology hexagon, or a technology dymaxion diagram"
22:52 < fenn> next to machine tools
22:53 < fenn> kanzure: there's a human cognitive bias towards discrete units, and "having" them or "not having" them
22:53 < fenn> see that meta academy site for example
22:54 < fenn> there's nothing inherent about the math behind "deep belief networks" to make it "a thing"
22:54 < fenn> i'm afraid i'm drifting into philosophy here, but the reason people want tech trees is to express how they think about the world
22:55 < fenn> same thing with code, there's nothing specific about the code in a .deb or a .apk that makes it one thing or another, except that's what we call it
22:55 < fenn> what is a gene? what replicates?
22:56 < ebowden> Oh, ParahSailin: What do you think of genetically engineering yourself a sapient talking dog?
22:56 <@kanzure> none of this is very convincing, could you try to find me a real technology tree that is accurate and not crap
22:57 < justanotheruser> Invent strong AI then use a dogs barks as randomness for its statements
22:57 < justanotheruser> Probably is easier
22:58 < fenn> kanzure: what about chemcial reaction networks, that's kinda similar and we know they correspond to reality
22:58 < ebowden> But it's much more fun to have wacky adventures with a talking dog?
22:58 < ebowden> But it's much more fun to have wacky adventures with a talking dog.
22:59 < QuantumG> ebowden: remember to do literature review, someone may have already done it
22:59 <@kanzure> people have verified those reaction mechanisms to an embarrassingly strong degree
22:59 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.129.225] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
22:59 <@kanzure> why isn't there a similar symbol-based machining language like that
22:59 <@kanzure> or mechanical building stuff language similar to "well clearly you just move the calcium atom around"
22:59 < fenn> it's amazing they're still discovering new chemical reactions, hundreds of years later
23:00 < ebowden> QuantumG: If someone had done it, popsci would have eaten it up by now.
23:00 < justanotheruser> So if I wanted to make a graph of all the chemicals and what they can make (basic chemicals on the top directing into other chemicals as they react), what website(s) would I scrape?
23:00 < fenn> new reaction mechanisms*
23:00 <@kanzure> well, part of that discovery is because the reaction mechanism databases are propriretary
23:00 <@kanzure> *proprietary
23:00 <@kanzure> so how would you really know if it's new or not etc
23:00 < QuantumG> ebowden: nay, it's probably in the literature under developmental abnormalities
23:00 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: pubchem
23:00 < fenn> because it's reported in the organic chemistry journals specifically devoted to keeping track of reaction mechanisms
23:00 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: also the proprietary databases like from uh, ACS
23:01 <@kanzure> american chemical society, i mean
23:01 < justanotheruser> Shhhh. No stealing information kanzure
23:01 < QuantumG> organic chemistry is messy anyway
23:01 < fenn> there are open databases, according to my father the computational chemist
23:01 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.129.225] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:01 < justanotheruser> But thanks, I'll check that out
23:01 < QuantumG> it's not as great as you think it is
23:01  * fenn is skeptical
23:01 <@kanzure> fenn: well, get the links from him
23:01 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@unaffiliated/auctus] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:01 < fenn> there's some papers by grzybowski that i haven't looked at
23:03 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/grzybowski/
23:04 -!- Auctwo [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
23:05 < fenn> 2006 figure 1b is what i'd expect a manufacturing tree to look like
23:05 < fenn> chemistry is a technology so that tree literally is a tech tree
23:07 < justanotheruser> kanzure: where is the synthesis on this http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=71315430&loc=ec_rcs ?
23:07 < ebowden> QuantumG: Very unlikely that there is any literature on talking dogs.
23:07 <@kanzure> i dunno if i'd classify "my knowledge of the fact that if i react these two chemicals together that i'd get this product" as a technology, although chemistry lab equipment and factory equipment would probably qualify to me as technology
23:07 < QuantumG> ebowden: I bet there's some literature on dog shaped babies
23:07 < fenn> ebowden: you know shaggy was probably just hallucinating from the drugs, right?
23:07 < ebowden> Yes, no-one but him communicated by speech with scooby-doo.
23:08 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: dunno, often you have to get one of those proprietary retrosynthetic analysis databases to get the synthetic routes for synthesizing whatever compound
23:08 < QuantumG> scooby-doo could talk?
23:08 < fenn> aroo whoo?
23:08 < QuantumG> I mean, ya know, he could grunt convincingly, but so can my cat.
23:08 < ebowden> In shaggy's head he could.
23:08 < justanotheruser> kanzure: any sources I can republish from?
23:08 <@kanzure> scooby doo "talked" through the controversial method of assisted speech
23:08 < ebowden> Probably where it ended.
23:08 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: probably not.. fenn claims there's an open/non-proprietary database somewhere.
23:09 < justanotheruser> fenn: link pls
23:09 < ebowden> Or shaggy was just schizophrenic or high.
23:09 < fenn> kanzure: you get a different sense for what technology is once you've made stuff from scratch
23:09 < fenn> it's all just "stuff" and you move it around, and move it back and forth with various forces
23:09 <@kanzure> fenn, there are many ways to build the same thing
23:10 < fenn> whether it's sloshing chemicals in a vat, or sloshing molten liquid in a foundry, doesn't seem to important of a distinction anymore
23:10 < justanotheruser> ebowden: why do you think he was always hungry
23:10 < ebowden> LOL
23:10 < QuantumG> anyway, there's plenty of literature on quadrupedal human developmental anomaly. Get to it Dr Krieger.
23:10 <@kanzure> scooby doo and the mystery crew were sponsored by the drug enforcement agency and robocop
23:11 < fenn> D.A.R.E. to watch cartoons
23:11 <@kanzure> there was this hilarious video of a government anti-drug campaign that employed robocop
23:11 < fenn> justanotheruser: honestly thinking about this stuff makes me exhausted
23:12 <@kanzure> (robocop is obviously anti-anti-drugs)
23:12 < QuantumG> I'm sure he warned the kids to stay out of trouble
23:12 <@kanzure> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhRQncgzTpA
23:12 <@kanzure> .title
23:12 < yoleaux> Robocop 2 Peter Weller Boys & Girls Club Anti-Drug PSA (1990)
23:12 < fenn> justanotheruser: you should probably look at the papers by grzybowski though
23:12 <@kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnAPcX9vkE
23:12 < yoleaux> Robocop Anti-Drug Campaign PSA in the Philippines
23:13 <@kanzure> too bad nobody got the message from the movies
23:13 < fenn> justanotheruser: also, the raw data for chemical reaction networks is not publically available, because it could be used to make nerve gas or something
23:13  * fenn shrugs
23:13 <@kanzure> hah, no it's not publicly available for that reason
23:13 <@kanzure> it's not publicly available because it's owned by companies that sell that information
23:14 <@kanzure> nerve gas is just a convenient reason to protect their business model
23:14 <@kanzure> but i haven't seen the nerve gas argument employed for why chemical data shouldn't be published in public
23:14 < justanotheruser> Fenn
23:14 < fenn> my understanding was that the commercial products are nowhere near complete
23:14 <@kanzure> "DRUG DEMAND REDUCTION PROGRAM"
23:15 < fenn> apparently it's really easy to make nerve gas from household chemicals if you know how
23:15 < QuantumG> if one were so inclined
23:15 < fenn> (and no i'm not talking about ammonia and bleach)
23:15 < ebowden> Fenn: Oh?
23:15 <@kanzure> is endless waltz worth watching?
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23:16 < fenn> kanzure: no
23:16 <@kanzure> thanks
23:16 < fenn> it's all whiny gay politics
23:16 < xmj> lol
23:16 < fenn> and philosophizing on the nature of war
23:16 < fenn> or something
23:17 < fenn> honestly i wish gundam spent more time on the space colonies and "what the hell is a space colony anyway" before immediately blowing everything up
23:18 <@kanzure> hasbro could sell more toys if they pimped it i guess
23:18 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Client Quit]
23:18 < ebowden> Fenn; What's this about homemade nerve gas? :D
23:19 < fenn> ebowden: forget about it
23:19 < fenn> even if i knew, i wouldn't tell you
23:20 < ebowden> Oh well, it's not important.
23:20 < QuantumG> you should tell him, then he'll immediately lose interest
23:20 < fenn> ebowden: you bury an egg in clay for 100 years, then dig it up. it's totally nerve gas dude
23:21 < ebowden> LOL
23:22 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set how many circles are there in this picture
23:22 <@kanzure> i think you mean to ask "what is the sound of one hand clapping?"
23:23 < fenn> that's disgusting
23:23 < ebowden> LOL
23:25 <@kanzure> well at least the gundam people do orchestra stuff every once in a while https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA1pEXaNmBg
23:25 < fenn> ebowden: instead of trying to genetically engineer a dog to talk, why not just put electrodes in its brain that do machine learning and generate speech and feedback that the dog can understand?
23:25 <@kanzure> s/hasbro/bandai
23:25 < QuantumG> .. or just do what I said.
23:25 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
23:26 < ebowden> Fenn: Want to give dogs greater powers of cognition as well, so that they can better evade the authorities when I send them to poo on selected people's lawns.
23:27 <@kanzure> running after pooing does not require greater "powers of cognition"
23:27 <@kanzure> just go buy a clicker
23:27 < fenn> QuantumG: but dogs have a really good sense of smell
23:27 -!- Adifex is now known as ZombieAdifex
23:27 < QuantumG> as if that's hard to selectively breed for.
23:28 < fenn> it'd take a long time to get to 100 generations
23:28 < fenn> 150 years at least
23:28 < QuantumG> you'd take a modern approach
23:28 < fenn> er, 1500 years
23:28 < fenn> i dont understand
23:29 < QuantumG> it's probably mostly psychosomatic anyway.
23:29 <@kanzure> depends on what you mean by talking too
23:29 <@kanzure> you can definitely get dogs to tell you things
23:30 < fenn> "but can we ever truly know anything"
23:30 <@kanzure> relevant:
23:30 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/ken-ramirez/
23:30 <@kanzure> this individual apparently trains large groups of animals at zoos
23:30 <@kanzure> like 15-25 seals at a time
23:30 <@kanzure> or 20 penguins etc
23:31 < QuantumG> he wants a human in dog form.. it's pretty obvious that it's easier to make a fur covered quadrupedal human than crack the secret of human level intelligence
23:31 <@kanzure> http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Can-Sign-Too-Breakthrough/dp/1587613530
23:31 < fenn> ebowden: hey why haven't you talked to sheena yet, the only other dog person in the channel afaik
23:32 < ebowden> Oh?
23:32 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap
23:32 <@kanzure> "pidgin is broken" is her excuse at the moment
23:32 < ebowden> Is Sheena here?
23:32 <@kanzure> no
23:32 <@kanzure> she is here in spirit
23:32 <@kanzure> by which i mean no
23:32  * fenn points at the empty metaphor
23:32 < ebowden> Oh well.
23:32 <@ParahSailin> seals are basically aquatic dogs
23:33 < fenn> ... the empty metaphor where sheena would have been
23:33 < fenn> oh man it's so hard to know if anyone gets my weird humor
23:33 < ebowden> I do, sort of.
23:34 < ebowden> It's a bit out of the box to explain to people.
23:35 < QuantumG> ParahSailin: if you're saying we need to genetically engineer humans to look like seals and release them into the wild, I agree.
23:35 < fenn> ramirez brings up fairness as an evolved trait; i think that it's where our instincts for money began
23:35 <@kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9onvwEylYTM&t=1m10s
23:35 < yoleaux> Snow Penguin Program at Ski Dubai
23:35 <@kanzure> penguin training
23:35 <@kanzure> "and plus it's all fueled by trillions of dollars of burning oil! hooray!"
23:38 < fenn> ramirez' advice is good for training humans too
23:39 < xmj> jrayhawk: that nutrition advice is interesting
23:39 < xmj> jrayhawk: do you know why he recommends not eating beans?
23:40 < fenn> because pythagoras said so
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23:42 < QuantumG> how to lose (or gain) weight: measure your weight at least twice a day, keep a log, change what/when/how much you eat so that the numbers go down.
23:43 < xmj> how to lose weight in one step: burn more calories than you take in. done.
23:43 < fenn> how to lose weight: cut off your head
23:43 < QuantumG> really, and how do measure that xmj?
23:44 < fenn> i thought the "take cold showers especially around the back of the neck area" was interesting; would like to see more data on that
23:44 < fenn> brown adipose tissue stimulation
23:45 < QuantumG> yeah, you could do anything you like as the action step, so long as you're measuring the variable you want to change.
23:45 < fenn> weight is a stupid variable to want to change, it's only used because it's easy to measure and compare
23:45 < QuantumG> 99% of people I've met who have failed to lose weight have not being measuring their weight.
23:46 < QuantumG> about half of the failed body builders I've met haven't been measuring their weight or any other indications of their muscle mass either.
23:47 < QuantumG> the majority just thought it'd take less time than it does..
23:47 < fenn> i like the idea of strength training, using maximum lift as your variable
23:48 < xmj> damn you for reminding me how much i've been slacking off the last three months.
23:48 < QuantumG> which is fine, if you're recording the data and normalizing for time of day, caloric intake, sleep..
23:48 < xmj> but yes. maximum lift in percentage of bodyweight is a great variable.
23:49 < fenn> kinda want to make a low mass strength training system
23:49 < xmj> fenn: "ottermode"
23:49 < fenn> seatbelt load limiters or something
23:50 < fenn> er, "low mass" refers to the mass of the exercise equipment
23:50 < QuantumG> of course, then there's the people who burst into tears whenever they get on a scale and go eat to make themselves feel better.. the scientific method presupposes a rationality which may not be sufficiently common.
23:50 < fenn> the scientific method doesn't require rationality, only that you follow the scientific method
23:51 < fenn> it produces rationality as a byproduct
23:52 < QuantumG> fair enough, my point is that recommending a scientific approach to weight loss is kinda pointless on most people, as they're incapable of being rational about their own body.
23:52 < fenn> has anyone done experiments with pets and nootropics?
23:53 < fenn> QuantumG: starvation produces huge negative emotional responses in humans, i see it everywhere, really disappointing that so many people "diet"
23:53 < fenn> starve themselves
23:53 < fenn> then it's like "why am I suicidal" EAT SOMETHING
23:54 < QuantumG> if it works for you, I say go for it
23:54 < QuantumG> if it doesn't, don't
23:54 < QuantumG> how can you tell? *measure*
23:55 < fenn> how do you measure tissue vitamin C activity
23:56 < fenn> i know how to measure intracellular magnesium, but most people don't have a blood NMR machine just lying around
23:56 < QuantumG> why would I want to?
23:56 < fenn> because it's required for life?
23:56 < QuantumG> .. and?
23:56 < fenn> any humans are mutants that don't get enough vitamin C to fix the complications of the mutation?
23:57 < fenn> there are a lot of possible interventions, it takes a long time to go through them all individually and give each one a fair shake
23:57 < fenn> so where do you start?
23:58 < fenn> it's not an endless recursive "what is the purpose of existence" type question
23:59 < fenn> we know roughly which systems contribute to, say, social anxiety, on a biochemical level, and possible interventions, but which ones are best suited to the individual can only be determined by gathering data. actually DOING the intervention would take longer than gathering other sorts of indicator data
--- Log closed Mon Apr 21 00:00:46 2014