--- Log opened Mon Apr 21 00:00:46 2014
00:00 < fenn> there's no rational reason to want to lose weight, it's just a proxy for self image and social confidence
00:01 < fenn> (yes i am aware of the link between obesity and metabolic syndrome)
00:03 < QuantumG> so, you're saying that attempting to achieve greater "social confidence" is irrational? How do you figure?
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00:04 < fenn> possible interventions to treat social anxiety: magnesium supplementation, GABAergic drugs, improved body image (weight loss), role playing, etc.
00:04 < QuantumG> I think the fat kid who loses weight so the girls will give him the time of day is being quite rational.
00:05 < fenn> social confidence and body type are correlated in american culture, but it doesn't necessarily have to be this way
00:05 < fenn> i do think social confidence is important for humans
00:06 < QuantumG> it doesn't matter if you think it has to be this way, it is this way
00:06 < fenn> there are other cultures with other preferred body types: maasai, polynesian
00:07 < QuantumG> accepting reality and focusing on the things you can change over the things you cant is what we typically call rational behavior
00:07 < QuantumG> it's a shame that defeatist and rational are so similar sometimes
00:07 < fenn> there are also socially successful, happy, confident, obese americans
00:08 < fenn> maybe the nuance isn't quite getting across and i should just give up
00:08 < QuantumG> sure, and there's also thin social pariahs
00:09 < fenn> i'm really frustrated that "reality" is seen as "things that hurt" or "things you can't change"
00:09 < QuantumG> I'm not saying that getting thin will make you happy.. you seemed to be saying that
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00:09 < QuantumG> I don't really give a shit why people want to be thin.
00:10 < QuantumG> I do give a shit that 99% of the people I talk to about it are honestly surprised that I think measuring your weight is an essential part of achieving that goal.
00:11 < QuantumG> I'd give the same advice to someone who wanted to be a hotdog eating champion: measure how fast you can eat hotdogs, son.
00:11 < fenn> i read "an engineer's guide to weight loss" (i think?) and it was basically what you are saying. keep track of variables, do what works, don't do what doesn't work.
00:12 < fenn> but knowing what I do about biology, I think there is more to it than just not eating, and suffering, and spending lots of willpower on your stupid diet.
00:12 < QuantumG> yeah, unfortunately that booklet is way too long.. it becomes a treatise on statistical methods pretty quickly.
00:13 < fenn> nah he was only measuring a few things, like calories and body mass and number of servings or something
00:15 < fenn> it's surprising there's no magic weight loss pill
00:16 < fenn> i don't really understand why there isn't either: 1) a pill that causes your fat cells to explode and empty into the bloodstream, or 2) amplify the satiety signal
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00:16 < QuantumG> I can think of a few that would do the job.. so long as "magic" doesn't include "painless" or does include "conscious" :)
00:17 < fenn> eh? anesthesia?
00:17 < QuantumG> yeah, people in comas lose weight like crazy. Just make sure you've got someone to rotate you.
00:17 < fenn> i didn't know that
00:18 < fenn> is it because they are on a controlled diet?
00:18 < QuantumG> well, they IV feed them and they can't complain
00:18 < fenn> or do they burn a lot of calories?
00:18 < QuantumG> controlled "diet", yeah
00:19 < QuantumG> kinda surprised it isn't a celebrity fad yet
00:19 < fenn> sorta like heroin detox
00:20 < QuantumG> must be that damn "there's no safe coma" crowd
00:20 < fenn> buncha whiners
00:20 < fenn> being back phen-phen!
00:20 < fenn> bring*
00:21 < fenn> my goal for 2014: to elevate the nation's cAMP levels
00:22 < ebowden> How would you do that? :D
00:22 < fenn> dump truckloads of stimulants in the water supply
00:23 < ebowden> Mass distribution of a cocaine?
00:23 < fenn> that works too
00:23 < ebowden> Oh.
00:23 < fenn> cocaine has poor pharmacokinetics though
00:23 < ebowden> Sorry, posted before your reply.
00:23 < ebowden> Yeah, it has to be snorted.
00:24 < fenn> you know those 5-hour energy things? it's just caffeine and b vitamins and cherry flavor
00:24 < fenn> caffeine works by raising cAMP and inhibiting the adenosine (sleepiness) receptor
00:24 < ebowden> Why not add experimental drugs?
00:24 < fenn> oh, like "bath salts"?
00:25 < ebowden> :D
00:25 < ebowden> No.
00:25 < QuantumG> what state are you in ebowden?
00:25 < ebowden> I live in Tasmania, Australia.
00:25 < QuantumG> oh, I'm so sorry
00:25 < fenn> they are mostly cathinones, which are similar to amphetamines, and also have fast pharmacokinetics which makes them more addictive and also less useful from the standpoint of productivity/weight loss
00:25 < ebowden> What for?
00:26 < ebowden> For me living in inbred land? :D
00:26 < QuantumG> apples or something
00:26 < QuantumG> being that close to NZ?
00:26 < QuantumG> etc
00:26 < ebowden> It was called 'the apple isle' a while ago.
00:27 < ebowden> What's wrong with NZ?
00:29 < QuantumG> nothing.. 'cept it's full of New Zealanders.. kinda like France.
00:29 < QuantumG> but, ya know, French people
00:30 < ebowden> So, QuantumG, what do you think of selling potent nootropics at exam time? :d
00:30 < ebowden> :D
00:30 < fenn> here's one i haven't heard of yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolipram
00:31 < QuantumG> I support commerce.
00:32 < cpopell> ebowden: 'potent' like what?
00:32 < QuantumG> Always charge more when there's high demand.. there's nothing worse than a supply shortage.
00:32 < ebowden> ISRIB.
00:32 < ebowden> No official human testing yet. :D
00:32 < QuantumG> of course, learning drugs always remind me of Arnold Rimmer.
00:32 < ebowden> YES!
00:33 < ebowden> I love that part.
00:34 < fenn> there are so many nootropics already, taking untested ones is hardly justified
00:34 < QuantumG> Have you ever had an exam that you walked out of thinking "well, that's a zero" but when you got it back you got like 85%?
00:35 < QuantumG> (I have.)
00:36 < ebowden> Ah, yes.
00:38 < ebowden> Oh, fenn, group of people are testing ISRIB on themselves soon, over at longecity.
00:40  * fenn rolls his eyes
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00:41 < fenn> do they also drink out of water bottles, run on treadmills, and line their room with crumpled newspaper and cedar chips?
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00:42 < ebowden> Honestly, I really want to see what happens.
00:42 < fenn> even if ISRIB actually works and improves learning rate by 1000%, what if it also increases your risk of developing PTSD by 1000%?
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00:43 < ebowden> Not an issue if you want to make MONEH.
00:43 < fenn> i'm sorry, what?
00:43 < ebowden> Kidding, it is.
00:43 < fenn> there are far easier ways to make money unethically
00:43 < ebowden> Pesky lawsuits and angry parents.
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00:46 < ebowden> But yes, mainly, I'm just curious. It's among the most potent enhancement of LTP we've seen yet, from what I've heard.
00:46 < ebowden> I'd like to see them run randomised, controlled, double blind trials.
00:47 < ebowden> Not that's at all realistic.
00:47 < fenn> i'd like to see some erowid subjective reports
00:47 < AshleyWaffle> what is isrib
00:48 < ebowden> If they're going to pump themselves with experimental drugs, it would be nice to see them get good data out of it.
00:48 < cpopell>  ebowden : have you played with Lion's Mane?
00:49 < ebowden> AshleyWaffle: Integrated Stress Response Inhibitor, increased score on measures of LTP by 300%.
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00:49 < ebowden> cpopell: No, sorry.
00:49 < fenn> ISRIB, (an acronym for Integrated Stress Response inhibitor), is an experimental drug which reverses the effects of eIF2α phosphorylation .. eIF2α phosphorylation is known to be involved in memory formation, ... enhancement of spatial and fear-associated learning in standard water maze and conditioned environment tests
00:49 < AshleyWaffle> ebowden: sorry, whats LTP?
00:49 < ebowden> Long Term Potentiation.
00:50 < AshleyWaffle> so aka ptsd drug lol
00:50 < cpopell> ebowden: it promotes NGF
00:50 < cpopell> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758067
00:50 < AshleyWaffle> sounds like youd get 100 phobias
00:50 < AshleyWaffle> how does testing look so far
00:50 < AshleyWaffle> any weird side effects?
00:50 < ebowden> It also assists in the reversal of fear conditioning, AshleyWaffle.
00:51 < fenn> cpopell: having tried lion's mane, let me caution you, having new brain cells means you develop new interests and new personality factors
00:51 < AshleyWaffle> ah
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00:51 < ebowden> Fenn, what else does it do?
00:51 < AshleyWaffle> so how does testing look so far
00:51 < fenn> what, like that isn't enough?
00:51 < cpopell> fenn: I'd really need a double blind on Lion's Mane
00:51 < cpopell> new interests and new personality factors are also consequences of living
00:52 < AshleyWaffle> so isrib is the first "real" nootropic?
00:52 < AshleyWaffle> ie super effective
00:52 < ebowden> Well, I'd like to see what else this neurogenesis does.
00:52 < AshleyWaffle> like NZT
00:52 < ebowden> No.
00:52 < ebowden> Not like NZT.
00:52 < AshleyWaffle> 300% sounds big
00:52 < AshleyWaffle> 3x faster learning?
00:52 < ebowden> Sort of, yes.
00:52  * fenn sighs
00:52 < AshleyWaffle> thats OP, sounds good to me
00:53 < ebowden> It's not going to automatically make you smart.
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00:53 < cpopell> fear and spatial learning, it seems.
00:53 < AshleyWaffle> hmm spatial
00:53 < AshleyWaffle> cpopell: do first person shooters count
00:53 < cpopell> who knows
00:53 < fenn> cpopell: also it takes a couple weeks before anything happens
00:53 < AshleyWaffle> well are they spatial
00:53 < cpopell> I'm not on anything in particular right now
00:54 < ebowden> AshleyWaffle: By sort of, I mean, we don't know for sure if it will have the same effect on humans.
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00:54 < AshleyWaffle> havent people been tinkering around on longecity?
00:54 < fenn> cpopell: are you happy with who you are as a person? yes -> don't take lion's mane; no -> do take lion's mane
00:54 < AshleyWaffle> http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/68589-isrib-group-buy-new/page-2
00:54 < fenn> is all i'm trying to say
00:54 < cpopell> fenn: Again, the problem is I need to see more data, heh
00:54 < cpopell> fenn: I didn't see reports on erowid
00:55 < fenn> me either
00:55 < fenn> i found it at the farmer's market
00:55 < ebowden> Yeah, people are having trouble getting it to pass the GI tract.
00:55 < fenn> then i read about BDNF on wikipedia
00:59 < ebowden> Fenn, we must identify ALL THE CHEMICAlS.
00:59 < ebowden> (In lions mane.)
01:00 < ebowden> Just read a bit about them.
01:00 < fenn> hm. i might have experienced this. "sensory nerves induced by NGF may contribute to development of itch, and that NGF produced at the affected site may provide abnormal skin sensitivity"
01:00 < ebowden> (By ALL THE CHEMICALS, I mean all the active compounds.)
01:01 < fenn> "itch" is the wrong word
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01:02 < ebowden> Oh?
01:03 < fenn> it's more like the feeling you get while a papercut is happening, or when someone scratches their fingers on a chalkboard, or using a number 2 pencil on rough paper without enough sleep
01:03 < fenn> i was reading all about "sensory processing disorder"
01:03 < ebowden> Ok.
01:04 < fenn> i cut back on b vitamins and it went away (may or may not be a cause and effect relationship)
01:04 < ebowden> Ok.
01:05 < fenn> i wasn't taking enough b vitamins to cause peripheral neuropathy
01:05 < ebowden> Could it be a synergy?
01:06 < fenn> growing nerves reacted to low doses the way sessile nerves react to high doses? sure
01:07 < fenn> (senescent?)
01:08 < ebowden> Ok.
01:13 < ebowden> Welp, it would be interesting to see how it goes in use as a treatment for cognitive deficits.
01:14 < fenn> god i hate forums
01:14 < fenn> why isn't there a longecity wiki
01:14 < fenn> so much useless bullshit to sift thruogh
01:15 < ebowden> Yeah.
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01:50 < ebowden> So, fenn, what do think of combining a variety of drugs that provide neurological benefits by different mechanisms?
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01:58 < jrayhawk> fenn, QuantumG: http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/hidden/weight/
01:59 < ebowden> Oh, hey jrayhawk.
02:00 < jrayhawk> weight loss is terrible; friends don't let friends do weight loss.
02:00 < jrayhawk> cargo cultism
02:01 < ebowden> jrayhawk, what do you think of combining drugs that provide neurological benefits by different methods?
02:02 < ebowden> jrayhawk, what do you think of combining drugs that provide neurological benefits by different mechanisms?
02:05 < jrayhawk> xmj: it's an area of poor study; we know of one legume antinutrient that's heat-stable and causes intestinal permeability: peanut agglutinin, and it's suspected that there will be more lectins, saponins, and globulins with problematic immunogenic activity based on the variable responses reported in non-immunogenic diet communities, but it's hard to nail it down for sure since there's also a lot of variance in response to FODMAPs.
02:06 < jrayhawk> they are, at the very least, not particularly optimal.
02:09 < jrayhawk> http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2013/11/beans-lentils-and-paleo-diet.html http://chriskresser.com/are-legumes-paleo have thoughts on the matter
02:11 < jrayhawk> the anthropological record indicates regular use of them by some healthy hunter-gatherer societies, but not, like, the majority of calories as with e.g. pacific islanders and tubers.
02:16 < jrayhawk> ebowden: i am not big on drugs in general
02:16 < ebowden> Oooooooooooooooooh.
02:17 < ebowden> Well, if it helps, they all come from a variety of plants.
02:17 < ebowden> Some of them from fungi.
02:19 < ebowden> You could probably make a good meal from them.
02:24 < jrayhawk> fenn, QuantumG: specifically, while i find it a mostly fair generalization to say that people with fat-heavy body composition are unhealthy, removing weight from an unhealthy person just makes for a weak unhealthy person.
02:25 < jrayhawk> By contrast, I fall into the medical an research definition of overweight: http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/self/poiseanddignity.jpg
02:25 < jrayhawk> this should perhaps tell you something about weight measurement as a paradigm for much of anything.
02:27 < AshleyWaffle> fenn: http://i.imgur.com/K7eqCHf.jpg
02:27 < AshleyWaffle> dont click that
02:27 < AshleyWaffle> except do dont
02:27 < jrayhawk> that is quite the contribution
02:27 < AshleyWaffle> lol
02:27 < AshleyWaffle> best nootropic 12/10
02:28 < AshleyWaffle> gg
02:28 < cpopell> I dunno what my bmi is
02:28 < cpopell> I know what my bf% is, that's more important
02:28 < jrayhawk> good
02:28 < jrayhawk> i regret knowing what my BMI is
02:29 < cpopell> meh. I'm a powerlifter.
02:31 < jrayhawk> my new years resolution was to gain ten pounds
02:32 < jrayhawk> this would be more meaningful if i had actually known my weight at the time i made that resolution
02:33 < jrayhawk> i guess i can sorta estimate based on the relative difficulty of pistol squats vs weighted squats
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02:51 < ebowden> Anyone here at the moment with any knowledge or expertise regarding neuropharmacology?
02:54 < ebowden> cpopell?
02:54 < ebowden> Would you have any?
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03:08 < xmj> jrayhawk: i didn't even know beans (kidney or green ones) technically counted as legumes.
03:08 < xmj> i always thought they were among the good side :-o
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03:14 < ebowden> Oh, jrayhawk, what do you think of genetically modifying food to be more nutritious?
03:14 < xmj> "messing with nature is bad mkay"
03:15 < ebowden> LOL
03:15 < xmj> I know. Uninformed troll statements always make for good laughs.
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03:15 < ebowden> Did we ever get any anti-GMOers in here?
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03:16 < xmj> It's funny how all Anti-GMOers I ever met were socialist pricks
03:17 < xmj> who never understood that GMO food is cheaper than the bio crap they fed themselves, or wilfully ignored it.
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03:18 < ebowden> It's funny, greenpeace basically uses Africa as it's playground.
03:19 < ebowden> They convinced the government that GMO corn was poisonous, despite all the evidence to the contrary, from research done by ACTUAL scientists.
03:19 < ebowden> Long story short, during a famine, they rejected a load of GMO corn, and a bunch of kids died.
03:20 < ebowden> "Thank you for saving us from the GMO corn Greenpeace!"
03:24 < xmj> yup
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05:55 < ebowden> Is there anyone here?
05:57 < eudoxia> hello hello
05:57 < ebowden> Oh, hello.
05:58 < ebowden> We talked about something earlier.
05:58 < ebowden> What was it?
05:58 < eudoxia> the weather
05:59 < ebowden> Damn, you don't remember either.
05:59 < eudoxia> not it really was the weather
05:59 < eudoxia> i asked you if it was cold in tasmania
05:59 < ebowden> Really?
05:59 < ebowden> Ah, right.
05:59 < ebowden> Derp.
06:00 < eudoxia> you said it was an inbred island but the temperature was fine
06:00 < GoatStimulator> europe?
06:00 < ebowden> There are places where a variety of shops all seem to have the same surname, and everyone looks related.
06:01 < ebowden> Some places in Tasmania are truly like Deliverance.
06:01 < ebowden> No, it's and Island state of Australia.
06:02 < ebowden> No, it's an island state of Australia.
06:02 < ebowden> So, eudoxia, GoatStimulator, what are you guys interested in?
06:02 < eudoxia> i have a friend who lives in adelaide and hates it too
06:02 < eudoxia> "how did this hole accumulate one million people"
06:03 < GoatStimulator> im using kerbel space program atm
06:03 < xmj> hacking, mostly.
06:03 < ebowden> Well, Adelaide is well known around Australia as being a hole.
06:03 < eudoxia> well i'm into whining about extropians and how we need a hands-on, realistic approach to transhumanism while idling on Freenode
06:03 < ebowden> Where I live in Tasmania is actually REALLY nice.
06:04 < ebowden> Forgive my asking, but what are extropians?
06:06 < eudoxia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/princip.html
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06:07 < ebowden> Loading.
06:09 < xmj> all hail singularity.
06:10 < mosasaur> extropy is a wordplay on entropy this is somewhere in the sl4 mailing list
06:11 < chris_99> "The term 'extropy', as an antonym to 'entropy' was used in a 1967 academic volume discussing cryogenics[2] and in a 1978 academic volume of cybernetics."
06:12 < eudoxia> i'm still waitin for the society of PRNG developers against extropianism
06:12 < mosasaur> chris_99: Yeah I read that now too :-) But I think it's not quite an antonym.
06:12 < chris_99> how can it be an antonym though
06:12 < mosasaur> indeed
06:12 < chris_99> considering there is low and high entropy etc
06:12 < eudoxia> the antonym is negentropy
06:14 < eudoxia> probably
06:14 < chris_99> can you even have negative entropy
06:14 < eudoxia> relative to something i guess
06:14 < chris_99> hmm
06:15  * xmj invokes multiple-universes-interpretation
06:15 < xmj> of course you can!
06:16 < FourFire> eudoxia, I've been to Adelaide, can't disagree
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06:16 < FourFire> eudoxia, lel, try hanging around the redditsphere for a bit
06:17 < FourFire> that will exasperate you on "being realistic and hands on"
06:17 < chris_99> "Extropy is not a rigorously defined technical term in philosophy or science; in a metaphorical sense, it simply expresses the opposite of entropy."
06:17 < chris_99> sounds a bit wishy-washy
06:17 < FourFire> timey-wimey
06:17 < eudoxia> FourFire: i think it seems rather nice. a little flat but at least it's probably better than this hole
06:18 < FourFire> eudoxia, and your hole is?
06:18 < eudoxia> FourFire: montevideo, pooruguay
06:18 < FourFire> I live in a bit of a hole myself, trying to escape has proven... demotivational
06:19 < eudoxia> chris_99: "it's not about who's going to let me become a cyborg, it's about who's going to stop me" - the gospel according to Rand
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06:19 < FourFire> eudoxia, fair enough
06:19 < chris_99> hmm
06:19 < FourFire> eudoxia, A: time, and incompetence
06:20 < mosasaur> "EXTROPY — A measure of intelligence, information, energy, vitality,
06:20 < mosasaur> experience, diversity, opportunity, and growth."
06:20 < mosasaur> "EXTROPIANISM — The philosophy that seeks to increase extropy. "
06:20 < FourFire> of course, your definition of cyborg has a lot to do with it, if you count having magnets implanted in your finger tips, so that you get (techno)magical "I can fuck up a hard drive just by touching it" powers, then it's pretty attainable
06:21 < FourFire> but, if you want to say, be able to generate and turn off magnetic fields at will, and be able to excahgne information wirelessly with computers, and other altered humans, then there's more work to be done
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06:22 < FourFire> (and greater EM field of view, robotic replacement parts etc.)
06:23 < ebowden> Oh, hey FourFire.
06:23 < FourFire> hello
06:24 < FourFire> ebowden, did we discuss something last week, I can't recall...
06:25 < ebowden> Neurofeedback?
06:25 < mosasaur> ebowden, may I ask, why are you here?
06:25 < FourFire> oh yeah
06:26 < FourFire> you know that the Emotiv-Insight, crowdfunded brain signal headgear is coming out very soon
06:26 < ebowden> Oh?
06:26 < FourFire> it's consumer hardware, but I reckon it has potential for biofeedback applications
06:26 < ebowden> monosaur, yes, and I am here because I was told this place is good for those with an interest in biotech.
06:26 < FourFire> http://emotiv.co/product.php
06:28 < mosasaur> thanks ebowden, that seems to be a major axis here yes
06:28 < FourFire> there was a more, hacker friendly headgear which was mentioned in this channel months ago, but I forget what it was called
06:28 < eudoxia> FourFire: OpenEEG?
06:29 < FourFire> ebowden, there is also #bioinformatics but those are more scientists
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06:29 < ebowden> More FOR scientists?
06:29 < FourFire> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E2%80%93computer_interfaces
06:30 < ebowden> Or, just with more scientists?
06:30 < FourFire> nah, the people in there are mostly people working
06:30 < FourFire> yeah
06:30 < ebowden> Because I, being not particularly qualified, don't want to be a bother to actual scientist trying to get shit done?
06:30 < FourFire> I hang around there quite a bit, mostly just getting ready to blagh on about my simulation... when I get it working, that is
06:31 < ebowden> Oh?
06:31 < ebowden> *done.
06:31 < FourFire> yeah, (wait until I've explained it before you laugh)
06:31 < ebowden> Ok.
06:31 < ebowden> This will be good.
06:31  * ebowden rubs hands together
06:32 < FourFire> I want to setup an evolutionary algorithm to select specific genes which produce RNA sequences which are synthesized into specific proteins which perform functions
06:32 < FourFire> the evolutionary algorithm selects the DNA, based on the performance of the proteins which it produces
06:32 < FourFire> Simulated evolution
06:32 < FourFire> one protein at a time
06:33 < ebowden> Ok.
06:33 < FourFire> of course, that sort of thing requires buttonnes of computing power, but once I get my proof of concept working, and if it produces results, then I'm sure someone will be interested
06:33 < ebowden> Ok.
06:34 < FourFire> and If it works, there are so many applications
06:34 < ebowden> So, what is novel about it?
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06:34 < FourFire> the part where evolution is being put to a directed use, or the part where it's never been done before?
06:35 < FourFire> (or the part where we don't need to evolve a whole organism at once?
06:35 < FourFire> )
06:35 < ebowden> Hey, why not both?
06:35 < FourFire> basically that whole concept as a thing
06:35 < FourFire> all the pieces have been used for different things, but as far as i can tell, they've never been put together like that before
06:36 < ebowden> So, this is meant to produce a useful protein?
06:36 < FourFire> Yes
06:37 < FourFire> it could also be used to produce synthetic, or artificial genes
06:37 < FourFire> things that don't exist in nature
06:38 < FourFire> imagine, you have an accident, something happens so that you can't breathe any more, or you lose a lot of blood, or you have CO poisoning, whatever: the point is that you stop getting oxygen to your cells
06:38 < ebowden> Ok.
06:38 < FourFire> now, you fortunately have an artificaly sequence of genes which has prepaired you for this sort of event
06:39 < ebowden> Oh?
06:39 < FourFire> inside every cell of your body you now have an additional organelle
06:39 < FourFire> it contains oxygen bonded in a compact way with a ladder of carbon molecules
06:39 < FourFire> now, when your cells stop getting more oxygen
06:40 < ebowden> It releases it's precious oxygen.
06:40 < FourFire> the acidity increase triggers a protein to crawl downa the ladder
06:40 < FourFire> releasing the stored 02
06:40 < FourFire> and it slowly seeps out of the organelle into the rest of the cell
06:40 < FourFire> (all happening in all your cells at once)
06:40 < ebowden> So, how would you get a carbon ladder that stores O2 in such a tiny space?
06:40 < FourFire> so this gives, you, say 10 minutes more being alive time, to fix whatever happened to you
06:41 < ebowden> Ok.
06:41 < ebowden> But, does such a structure exist?
06:41 < FourFire> I've designed it in my head, but what I need is that protein which builds it, and then later gets activated and releases the O2
06:42 < FourFire> yes, it exists in theretical chemistry, I can draw it for you if you like
06:42 < FourFire> it's a form of poly HexaOxelene
06:42 < ebowden> Oh, they've made it?
06:42 < FourFire> or "x(COOCOO)"
06:43 < FourFire> it's like a pile of hexagons where four of the corners are oxygen atoms, and the other two, at opposites are carbon
06:43 < FourFire> and the carbon atoms link to the layer above, and the layer below
06:44 < FourFire> the point is, that a protein which could build such a ladder and then, (or perhaps a separate protein) doesn't exist
06:44 < ebowden> Has it been synthesised, and would it be possible to biosynthesise?
06:45 < ebowden> Yeah, you need to get that protein.
06:45 < FourFire> now my method, could produce the gene sequence which would synthesize that protein
06:45 < FourFire> no, I need to get the Gene for the protein
06:45 < FourFire> having the protein doesn't help much if I can't build it
06:45 < ebowden> Ok, why not just find a protein that does it, and make a gene sequence that will make the protein?
06:45 < FourFire> now, that example is just one of many
06:46 < FourFire> we have a problem, (survive for longer with no oxygen getting to your cells)
06:46 < FourFire> and a multitude of possible resolutions
06:47 < FourFire> ebowden, that's an awefully big "just"
06:47 < ebowden> Yes, it is.
06:47 < ebowden> But why not start with the protein?
06:48 < FourFire> you could
06:48 < FourFire> but then you'd need to reverse engineer it, and decode it into genetic code, or figure out some other way to produce it and regulate it's production, and all sorts of other things
06:49 < FourFire> could take a collab of several teams of biochemists and bioengineers and other people with important sciencey titles a Long Time
06:50 < FourFire> and then, all that effort, not much of it could be reused
06:50 < FourFire> I mean you'd have the target protein, and the dna for it, great! but then you'd have to do the whole thing all over again if you wanted something which ate cholesterol in the blood stream, for example
06:51 < FourFire> or, something which could filter heavy metals from the bloodstream before they enter cells
06:53 < ebowden> So, how is your method coming along?
06:53 < FourFire> or something which detects specific hormone-like compounds, and collects them for disposal, or specialized garbage collector metabolism
06:53 < ebowden> Is it attracting interest?
06:54 < FourFire> well, like I said, I haven't gotten the proof of concept working yet, and I won't be advertising it beyond say, discussing it in IRC channels before I know it works
06:54 < FourFire> I might be enthusiastic about the possibilities, but I'm not going to waste other people's time for something which doesn't work.
06:56 < ebowden> Sounds quite sensible.
06:59 < FourFire> http://www.openbci.com was that other biofeedback headset i was thinking of
06:59 < FourFire> though it's more of a devboard, with accessories, which they sell
07:00 < FourFire> and a 3D printable mount for the board and sensors
07:00 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
07:00 < ebowden> Neat.
07:00 < FourFire> much more hacker, than consumer
07:00 < ebowden> By the way, did you get the paper I linked?
07:02 < FourFire> no, which one?
07:03 < ebowden> Oh, right.
07:03 < ebowden> Sorry.
07:03 < ebowden> Sifting through for it now.
07:03 < cluckj> getting rid of CO2 is just as important as providing O2 :P
07:05 < FourFire> clukj of course
07:05 < FourFire> but you Need CO2 for metabolism, anaerobic is so inefficient
07:05 < FourFire> I mean, O2
07:06 < ebowden> Ah, here FourFire
07:06 < ebowden> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf
07:06 < FourFire> ah yes I have it up actually
07:06 < FourFire> I did not read past the first three or so paragraphs yet
07:07 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
07:07 < cluckj> CO2 will turn you into a bag of acid pretty quickly
07:08 < ebowden> Oh, this is also neat:
07:09 < ebowden> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Active%20maintenance%20in%20prefrontal%20area%2046%20creates%20distractor-resistant%20memory.pdf
07:09 < FourFire> cluckj, bag of acid is preferrable to dying right away, it's just an example of a temporary solution to a problem which would increase survivability of things like heart attack/stroke/drowning etc.
07:10 < FourFire> cluckj, but I'm reasonably sure that there's some smart way to store up CO2 as well, that's another thing a seperate protein could maybe do
07:10 < cluckj> o_O
07:10 < cluckj> that's what I'm trying to say
07:10 < FourFire> yeah, that's it
07:10 < cluckj> you need a lot of proteins to do different things if you even want to mess with one part of cellular metabolism
07:11 < ebowden> Oh, I think they found one in eggshells that does it quite well.
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07:11 < FourFire> maybe instead of one additional organelle, you have two: one which slowly leaks O2, one which slowly sucks up CO2
07:11 < FourFire> eggshells are porous
07:14 < cluckj> why not just cut O2 out of respiration altogether
07:14 < FourFire> cluckj, have you had a look at The Krebs Cycle ?
07:15 < FourFire> it's a crazy multipurpose system and requires at least some basic knowledge of chemistry elements and bonds, but it's basically an energy converter system of chemical reactions
07:15 < ebowden> Oh, hellp cluckj.
07:15 < ebowden> *hello
07:16 < FourFire> it's thing like that which lead people to think that "evolution" has been "designed" to do some specific thing, or that it's straining for some goal
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07:16 < FourFire> whereas that's pretty much wrong
07:16 < cluckj> the krebs cycle doesn't exist on its own
07:16 < FourFire> of course
07:16 < FourFire> it's just a tiny part of the whole interconnected system
07:16 < cluckj> and iirc it's anaerobic :P
07:17 < FourFire> it can be, but it's like <20th as efficient then
07:17 < ebowden> ...
07:17 < cluckj> hi ebowden
07:17 < FourFire> in terms of how much ATP is produced per oxygen
07:17 < ebowden> ...
07:18 < FourFire> or, rather, how many energetic phosphor compounds are added per Gluclose
07:18 < ebowden> Ah, you had me a wee bit worried there for a moment.
07:19 < FourFire> it uses much more glucose, and produces fewer energetic phosphor compounds... which is why we die when we run out of oxygen
07:19 < ebowden> But it's part of aerobic respiration.
07:19 < ebowden> Oh, cluckj, what do you like to do?
07:20 < FourFire> I ... appreciate how it can basically have any input
07:20 < FourFire> Fats, proteins, or sugars
07:20 < FourFire> if it had a designer, or a group of designers, I'd calla them utterly brilliant
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07:21 < FourFire> but, I reckon that there is room for improvement
07:21 < cluckj> ebowden, argue about biochemistry on irc apparently :\
07:21 < FourFire> low hanging fruit which can be made with directed purpose
07:21 < FourFire> lots of hard work, of course, but it's possible
07:21 < ebowden> cluckj, what else?
07:21 <@kanzure> new rule: acronyms are banned
07:22 < cluckj> boo
07:22 < ebowden> Even KREBS cycle?
07:22 < cluckj> krebs isn't an acronym
07:22 < FourFire> in my previous example, I'd argue that there is little fitness advantage, and thus little opportunity for something to survive blood loss to the extent of pressure loss
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07:22 < ebowden> Oh right.
07:22 < ebowden> Derp.
07:22 < cluckj> krebs was a dude, dude
07:23 < cluckj> I mean iirc krebs was a dude
07:23 < FourFire> krebs is the name of the dude which discovered it, but are you disallowing ATP kanzure ?
07:23 < ebowden> It is an abbreviation, though.
07:23 < cluckj> or btw iirc krebs was a dude
07:23 < cluckj> :)
07:23 < FourFire> krebs cycle is fully googleable
07:23 < cluckj> ebowden, I'm an anthropologist who studies
07:23 < cluckj> 'amateur' scientists
07:24 < ebowden> Kanzure, are you going to make everyone type out the whole Adenosine Triphosphate and Adenosine Diphosphate every time?
07:25 < ebowden> cluckj, Really?
07:25 <@kanzure> the anti-genetically-modified-foodies are useful because monsanto is evil for other reasons (intellectual property crap)
07:25 < cluckj> ebowden, yes
07:27 < ebowden> Well, I'd think your impression might not be quite so grand, based off just this.
07:27 < cluckj> hahaha
07:27 <@kanzure> unfortunately i can't recommend getting excited about emotiv products, emotiv epoc was pretty low quality and electroencephalography is more disappointing than everyone thinks
07:28 < ebowden> Ah.
07:29 < cluckj> I'd be a pretty terrible scientist if I based my opinion off of one source of data :P
07:29 < ebowden> Yes, you would. You would be a horrible scientist.
07:30 < ebowden> However, I am not certain this is exactly a 'one-off'.
07:31 <@kanzure> abbreviations are also mostly banned
07:31 < cluckj> on whose end?
07:31 <@kanzure> ebowden: yes, i am going to force them to type out "adenosine triphosphate"
07:31 < ebowden> Yeah, I thought so.
07:31 < cluckj> laughing out loud
07:31 < cluckj> oh god that's awful
07:32 <@kanzure> i will also threaten, blackmail and extort them into compliance
07:32 < ebowden> What's awful cluckj?
07:32 < cluckj> typing out "lol"
07:32 < ebowden> Ah.
07:33 < ebowden> Kanzure, is this some preachy exercise in trying to make people understand, and think more about that they are talking about?
07:33 < cluckj> ebowden, I've been working on this project a long time and I
07:34 < cluckj> m fairly non-judgmental
07:34 <@kanzure> no, it's just rage
07:34 < cluckj> and I hate my keyboard, my ' is right next to my enter key
07:34 < chris_99> cluckj, what's the project
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07:35 < ebowden> Kanzure, I had hoped so.
07:35 < FourFire> "yeah I agree that Monsanto is evil, now just stfu and accept that some natural things are bad, and some artificial things are good"
07:35 < cluckj> studying how non-institutional scientists ("amateurs") build labs, do science, etc.
07:36 < FourFire> I feel aggravated when "Nature!" hippies venn diagram with deathists
07:36 < chris_99> aha cool, cluckj, writing a book or something
07:36 < FourFire> unfortunately, this person is my father
07:36 < cluckj> dissertation, then a book
07:36 < ebowden> chris_99: The project is a study of amateur scientists, that will culminate in him presenting to the world what a complete incompetent shambles we are, if you must know.
07:37 < chris_99> cluckj, is this masters/phd/..?
07:37 < cluckj> ebowden don't spoil my thesis statement!
07:37 < chris_99> heh
07:37 < cluckj> chris_99, PhD
07:37 < chris_99> cool, what kind of PhD is it for if you don't mind me asking
07:37 < cluckj> science and technology studies
07:38 <@kanzure> aka stalker studies
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07:38 < cluckj> yep
07:39 < kanzure> i was warned
07:39 < ebowden> Kanzure, are you just angry that he's going to tell everyone what a bunch of numpties amateur scientists are?
07:39 < ebowden> :D
07:39 < kanzure> what are you commenting on? i don't understand.
07:39 < cluckj> hah, warned about what and by whom?
07:39 < kanzure> 07:38 <@kanzure> aka stalker studies
07:39 < kanzure> i said "aka"
07:39 < kanzure> i was warned by myself
07:39 < ebowden> cluckj's thesis
07:40 < FourFire> I wonder if qntm.org/ra is updated
07:40 < kanzure> i have never read his thesis
07:40 < kanzure> i don't know (or really care) if i qualify as an amateur scientist
07:40 < ebowden> He is writing one now, to smear us.
07:40 < kanzure> qualifying under that label doesn't bestow me any particular benefits
07:41 < cluckj> ^-- yep
07:41 < kanzure> i really don't think he's going to be smearing anyone
07:41 < kanzure> but if he does, who fucking cares
07:41 < cluckj> also yes
07:41 < ebowden> I know, I'm joking kanzure.
07:41 < kanzure> just give him a sugar cube and he'll fucken die
07:41 < cluckj> :o
07:41 < kanzure> well it's true
07:41 < cluckj> kanzure knows my kryptonite!
07:42 < kanzure> actually i wonder if it is true or not
07:42 < kanzure> maybe a really big sugar cube
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07:42 < cluckj> you'd have to keep me away from my insulin pump for a while
07:42 < kanzure> that's too inconvenient
07:42 < ebowden> What about dry rice?
07:42 < FourFire> and I now have a fear of asteroid mining companies
07:43 < ebowden> FourFire, why?
07:43 < FourFire> http://www.openbci.com
07:43 < FourFire> sorry http://qntm.org/asteroids
07:43 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
07:43 < FourFire> "The basic rule is you multiply by 15. A 3,000-tonne rock carries the same impact energy as 45-kilotonne nuclear bomb. At minimum. "
07:43 < cluckj> I'd have to say that writing nasty stuff about 'amateur' scientists would make me an extremely ungrateful bastard
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07:45 < FourFire> cluckj, name your closest example
07:45 < FourFire> electricity?
07:45 < cluckj> closest example to what?
07:45 < kanzure> what would electricity be an example of?
07:45 < kanzure> you guys are incomprehensible and evil
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07:46 < xmj> FourFire: are you afraid astromining companies will turn into Free Luna Republic a la Heinlein, and throw rocks at Earth?
07:46 < FourFire> The inventor of 60Hz AC transmission was, arguably, an amateur scientist
07:46 < FourFire> brilliant
07:46 < FourFire> well, wait, no they got a degree in electrical engineering
07:46 < FourFire> scratch that
07:46 < cluckj> I don't like the label 'amateur scientist' because it's a misnomer
07:46 < FourFire> xmj, I have not read any heinlein, please don't spoil
07:46 < FourFire> and now I get the reference
07:47 < FourFire> that meme makes sense now...
07:47 < kanzure> "amateur non-amateur"
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07:47 < ebowden> Memo to all: In order to placate Kanzure, should we ever talk about spider silk, the spinneret must be referred to as the 'silk-but'. We must also make easy explanations of our ideas, using brightly coloured blocks.
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07:47 < ebowden> :D
07:47 < xmj> FourFire: too late
07:48 < cluckj> the amateur/professional distinction is counterproductive as far as what I'm trying to talk about goes
07:48 < ebowden> We know you won't be mean to us cluckj.
07:48 < FourFire> xmj, well "Green mars" has the martians lobbing deimos at earth
07:48 < xmj> i haven't read that one. damn you, and we're even
07:49 < FourFire> ;P
07:49 < FourFire> still worth the read
07:49 < cluckj> ebowden, I do have plenty of other folks to be mean to
07:50 < ebowden> Oh?
07:50 < kanzure> what? it's not conceivable that he knows others? wtf
07:50 < chris_99> has anyone read Elephants on Acid: and Other Bizarre Experiments and the sequel? i thought it was interesting anyhow
07:50 < ebowden> Kanzure: I'm just mining for a story here.
07:51 < cluckj> o_O
07:51 < xmj> FourFire: i've read enough Heinlein to let him rest in pieces; i've read a few of his were I could predict the plot well enough to turn to other authors.
07:51 < kanzure> ebowden: just ask for it then, damn
07:51 < cluckj> yeah
07:51 < ebowden> So, cluckj, what others have you got to be meant to?
07:51 < xmj> ebowden: sometimes it comes handy to have imaginary friends.
07:52 < kanzure> this is worse than herding cats
07:52 < cluckj> there are some jerks who have done bad research on the same people that I'm working with
07:52 < ebowden> Ah.
07:53 < ebowden> cluckj, what was this?
07:54 < cluckj> oh just things like pressuring them into 4-hour interviews without notice, not explaining informed consent correctly, a ton of journalists with bad ethics
07:55 < ebowden> Ah.
07:55 < ebowden> So, it was more 'research' than research.
07:55 < kanzure> what does that even mean
07:55 < cluckj> O_o
07:56 < kanzure> i think i hate you
07:56 < cluckj> token research or interviews?
07:56 < cluckj> there was some of that
07:56 < kanzure> why is this guy so bad at sentences?
07:56 < kanzure> our other australian seems okay
07:57 < cluckj> there was also a researcher that didn't know who I was that tried to guilt me into doing an interview with them while I was doing fieldwork
07:57 < cluckj> I was not nice to them
07:58 < FourFire> so kanzure you didn't answer me, are you banning ATP ?
07:58 < cluckj> my point is that even if I wanted to be a jerk and say mean things, there are plenty of others that would deserve it
07:58 < kanzure> 07:31 <@kanzure> ebowden: yes, i am going to force them to type out "adenosine triphosphate"
07:58 < xmj> banning ATP..huh what
07:58 < kanzure> abbreviations/acronyms
07:58 < kanzure> AA, you know
07:59 < eudoxia> kanzure no
07:59 < eudoxia> you have become eliezer
07:59 < eudoxia> soon you'll take down the logs too D:
07:59 < FourFire> I doubt you could blackmail me, but you're free to try ;)
07:59 < kanzure> FourFire: you are easy to blackmail, i'll just publish #lesswrong logs in your name
07:59 < FourFire> I'm also unsure what exactly you'd try to extort from me either
08:01 < ebowden> Oh, just got back kanzure. My sentences were bad to you because I was talking to someone who I knew would get it easily, and would not need me to a pantomime and explain things to him with lego.
08:01 < ebowden> :D
08:02 < ebowden> Sorry, didn't meant to be mean, I just really wanted to use the lego line.
08:02 < kanzure> you are not very good at being mean
08:03 < ebowden> I know, wasn't trying.
08:03 < ebowden> Just wanted to use the one about lego.
08:04 < xmj> Any engineer can convey important points with Lego
08:04 < ebowden> If I wanted to be mean, I would go find the comments section on some new age homeopathy video, and start bringing my horrible reality buzzkill juices to the party.
08:05 < ebowden> Ah yes, lego is awesome.
08:05 < chris_99> maybe homeopathy does work though ;)
08:05 < chris_99> via the placebo effect
08:05 < FourFire> kanzure, but logs published are banned from the channel
08:05 < FourFire> if you defect in such a way, it can end badly for you
08:05 < cluckj> O_o
08:06 < eudoxia> FourFire: under your name
08:06 < eudoxia> FourFire: possibly signed with your private key because kanzure has root everywhere after all
08:06 < ebowden> *And yes,
08:06 < cluckj> ebowden, I sometimes understand easily
08:06 < FourFire> I think enough people in that channel know how incompetent I am, that I was unable to actually log an event which I as supposed to log, so it's realistic to presume that I don't even have logs
08:07 < cluckj> but I also ask really obtuse questions as a hazard of the job
08:07 < FourFire> however, if you post logs in your own name, of me... well
08:07 < FourFire> defectors must be punished
08:07 < FourFire> (but please, do tell)
08:07 < kanzure> i said your name, wtf
08:07 < FourFire> What The Fuck*
08:08 < ebowden> Oh, cluckj, do you know much about biology?
08:08 < cluckj> I have a BS in biochemistry
08:08 < cluckj> and taught biology to undergrads for a year
08:09 < ebowden> Oh, that's neat.
08:09 < kanzure> that sounds close to no :)
08:09 < ebowden> LOL
08:09 < cluckj> hahaha
08:09 < ebowden> It's more than me, for sure.
08:10 < cluckj> I guess it was three semesters
08:10 < cluckj> is that closer to yes kanzure?
08:10 < cluckj> at least a maybe?
08:10 < kanzure> don't care, i think ebowden's inquisitions are dumb.
08:11 < cluckj> :)
08:11 < kanzure> i am not a licensed biologist, does that mean that i don't know biology? fuck you
08:11 < cluckj> exactly
08:12 < cluckj> I shouldn't have listed credentials :P
08:12 < ebowden> Kanzure, I'm only looking for someone who knows enough to answer some of the questions I might have.
08:13 < cluckj> I probably do not know enough right now to answer your biology questions
08:13 < cluckj> I might have, before I drank the social science kool aid
08:14 < kanzure> jrayhawk: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/features/article/bitcoin-boss-karpeles-easily-led-not-dishonest-says-mother
08:14 < kanzure> ebowden: stop wasting people's time and just ask the questions upfront
08:14 < cluckj> ^
08:14 < kanzure> ebowden: there's this general irc policy of "don't ask to ask"
08:14 < ebowden> Ah, ok.
08:16 < ebowden> So, what do you guys think of 'combining' a variety of drugs that give neurological benefits by different mechanisms?
08:16 < kanzure> i don't know what you mean by "combining"
08:17 < ebowden> Taking them together.
08:17 < eudoxia> taking them simultaneousl - yeah
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08:17 < kanzure> didn't you say you read the longecity forums?
08:17 < kanzure> i'm having trouble understanding why you would ask that question
08:17 < kanzure> given that you read longecity.org stuff
08:17 < ebowden> Not too often, but I do sometimes.
08:18 < ebowden> Again, I've read about three threads.
08:18 < kanzure> many of their users take multiple drugs simultaneously.
08:20 < ebowden> Mainly hoping someone here would know of some potentiating synergy that had been clinically studied, or whatever you call it.
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08:24 < cluckj> lunchtime, bbl
08:24 < ebowden> Basically, has anyone heard of an example of a clinical trial here two neuroactive drugs that work by different mechanisms, which, having significant benefit on their own, had a much heightened benefit when used together.
08:24 < ebowden> *together?
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08:24 < ebowden> Ok cluckj.
08:27 < ebowden> Specifically, benefit involving heightened neurogenesis, myleination, etc.
08:28 < kanzure> now you wait until someone answers
08:28 < ebowden> Ok, thanks kanzure.
08:36 < justanotheruser> Is it a bad idea to ignore nih.govs robots.text?
08:36 < justanotheruser> *txt
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08:39 < kanzure> yes, because they offer most of their data by ftp
08:39 < kanzure> probably all
08:39 < justanotheruser> Where?
08:40 < kanzure> probably ftp.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov or something
08:42 < justanotheruser> OK thanks
08:42 <@ParahSailin> lol
08:42 < justanotheruser> You havin a chuckle ParahSailin?
08:43 <@ParahSailin> what you looking for from ncbi
08:45 < justanotheruser> I want to make a directed graph of chemical reactions. For example, H2 and O2 would point to h2o
08:45 <@ParahSailin> oh yeah, not gonna find that
08:45 < justanotheruser> It seems like ncbi isn't a very full synthesis db
08:46 < kanzure> lookup for a thing called an "organic reaction database"
08:47 < kanzure> and then you have reaction mechanisms which are really just graph grammars for rewriting the graphs of compounds through the addition of chemicals
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08:48 < justanotheruser> Would it be useful for an ametuer chemist to have a website describing the tools, chemicals and procedures necessary to create a chemical along with a graphical explanation of the reaction?
08:49 < justanotheruser> The next step would be to scrape online chemical stores and see if a chemical or tool is easily available. Then you see if you can make a chemical based on what is easily available
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08:51 < justanotheruser> Oh wow, synarchive is pretty scrapable
08:52 < justanotheruser> Is there an inorganic equivalent?
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09:25 < kanzure> oh yeah, reaxys
09:25 < kanzure> ugh
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10:06 < cluckj> o_O
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10:33 < jrayhawk> ahaha that mother thing is great
10:34 < kanzure> "The first Anne heard of the blowout at Mt. Gox was when a local reporter telephoned her. “I didn't even know Mark was the boss,” she recalled. “I had to look it up on Wikipedia.”"
10:35 < jrayhawk> every sentence that comes out of her mouth just makes her look that much more reliable
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10:38 < eudoxia> >PHP doctor
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10:42 < jrayhawk> "< ebowden> Oh, jrayhawk, what do you think of genetically modifying food to be more nutritious?" our understanding of nutrition is too primitive for that to be genuinely safe, and the resources are never allocated for such egalitarian purposes anyway. We've had interesting successes and failures throughout our thousands of years of genetic crop alteration; I find it entirely reasonable that people want to draw an (admittedly ...
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10:42 < jrayhawk> ... arbitrary) line in the sand declaring a higher standard of proof of safety is needed for further alteration, especially given how crass the applications of the latest techniques have been.
10:43 < kanzure> i wonder if anyone can successfully redirect all the anti-genetically-modified-organism hatred towards anti-IP stuff
10:44 < kanzure> erm, anti-intellectual-property
10:47 < jrayhawk> that does seem to be a thing that's accidently happening w.r.t. Monsanto's glysophate soybean legal machinations.
10:47 < cluckj> you might be able to convince some people on the anti-IP stuff, but there's a lot of anti-GMO sentiment that isn't for the same reasons
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10:48 < kanzure> i haven't seen any good non-legal-related anti-GMO arguments
10:49 < cluckj> "playing god" is a pretty effective argument for a lot of people
10:49 < jrayhawk> http://consumerist.com/2014/04/08/congratulations-to-comcast-your-2014-worst-company-in-america/ i am pretty sure this public sentiment is mostly a product of the seed-saving fights
10:49 < kanzure> i have seen general anxiety about "meddling with nature", but no specific claims, like "if you use a novel protein, you will cause a plague because [evidence]"
10:49 < kanzure> "playing god" is an ethical argument, not an argument based on evidence
10:49 < jrayhawk> the bigger concern is increased use of glysophate and similarly dangerous pesticides and herbicides
10:50 < cluckj> if someone thinks GMOs are bad because it's "playing god," an evidentary or logical argument probably isn't going to convince them of anything
10:50 < jrayhawk> though, TBH, I can't bring myself to care much about people who think soy and wheat are acceptable human food
10:50 < kanzure> i could maybe accept something like, "increased herbicide/pesticide resistance will cause other farms across the world to stop being able to produce food, so therefore anything GMO is a scorched-earth policy"
10:51 < kanzure> cluckj: yeah but i also don't care about them, so it evens out
10:51 < cluckj> hah
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10:51 < cluckj> that doesn't mean they stop existing :P
10:52 < kanzure> hmm
10:52 < kanzure> well then how is the patent system not "playing god" in the same way
10:53 < cluckj> owning property or knowledge isn't natural
10:53 < kanzure> i suspect even some of their arguments can be redirected away from specifically the concerns of human-manipulated genetics
10:53 < kanzure> and since they aren't complaining about the centuries of crossing plants etc, then they are just being moronic
10:53 < cluckj> my own personal concern about GMOs is the IP problem
10:54 < jrayhawk> at least GMO disease-resistant squash seems to have been an okay idea
10:54 < cluckj> the people that can do GMOs really well are the same ones who want to fuck everyone for profit
10:55 < cluckj> really well in the scientific sense...
10:56 < cluckj> disease resistant like BT toxin producing?
10:58 < jrayhawk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacao_swollen-shoot_virus the best coup for public GMO sentiment would be fixing this
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10:59 < cluckj> or coffee tree diseases :)
11:00 < kanzure> oh that's an interesting virus
11:00 < kanzure> especially since it has economic consequences
11:01 < jrayhawk> coffee rust, or swollen-shoot?
11:01 < kanzure> "In Ghana, between 2006 and 2010, over 28 million trees were removed for being visibly infected or for being in contact with infected trees."
11:01 < kanzure> cacao swollen-shoot virus
11:01 < cluckj> I agree...instead of focusing on things people like, companies that can make GMOs are spending their time on things that are easily patentable and make them a bunch of money
11:01 < cluckj> like glyphosate resistant everything
11:01 < kanzure> hehe "Farmers are also occasionally resistant to the idea of killing infected plants if they feel they can still get some harvest from them.[17]"
11:02 < kanzure> "Today CSSV is responsible for 15% of total cocoa crop loss in the world." cool
11:02 < kanzure> so i wonder if a virus assay would have some economic consequences
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11:03 < kanzure> with cocoa futures or something
11:03 < kanzure> cocao
11:03 < kanzure> cacao
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11:04 < kanzure> "Over 200 million trees have already been claimed by this disease, which has prompted Ghana to launch the most ambitious and costly eradication effort of any country in the world against a viral plant disease."
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11:11 < FourFire> kanzure, I have thought through a whole load of mental stuff which leads to the conclusion that attempting to play god is in fact desirable, or at least not something to be discouraged
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11:12 < kanzure> why are you telling me. have i given any indication that i think the "playing god" argument is a good one?
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11:13 < FourFire> nope, none at all, I'm just noting that arguments exist which contradict such people using their own logic
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11:13 < FourFire> self consistent arguments, no less
11:15 < kanzure> this is a strange way to do service discovery https://github.com/flynn/strowger
11:15 < cluckj> lol
11:16 < delinquentme> kanzure, go find me horse breeders who want to buy ECM hydrogel
11:16 < delinquentme> gogoogogo
11:16 < kanzure> ask jrayhawk, i'm sure he'll love to tell you about his obsession with horses
11:16 < delinquentme> jrayhawk, I like horses too!
11:16 < delinquentme> maybe not in the same way though
11:18 < cluckj> ew?
11:19 < kanzure> (it's funny because jrayhawk hates horses)
11:19 < kanzure> http://www.surgi-carecenter.com/resources/publications/articletype/articleview/articleid/13/regenerative-medicine-part-2-platelet-rich-plasma-and-extra-cellular-matrix.aspx
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11:24 < sheena> horses?
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11:27 < kanzure> .wa 422 galons / 6 inches
11:27 < yoleaux> (422 gallons)/(6 inches): 10.48 m² (square meters); Unit conversions: 1.048×10⁻⁵ km² (square kilometers); 0.1048 a (ares); 0.01048 daa (decares); 4.047×10⁻⁶ mi² (square miles); 112.8 ft² (square feet); Comparisons as area: ~(0.5 to 1) × area of a typical American parking space (10 to 20 m²); ~3.9 × area of a typical office desk (2 to 4 m²); Comparisons as surface area: ~(0.022 ~1/46) × B2 stealth bomber wing  …
11:27 < yoleaux> surface area (~478 m²)
11:27 < kanzure> how did i typo gallons :(
11:27 < kanzure> oh that's just surface area. hmm.
11:28 < chris_99> gallons ick ;)
11:29 < kanzure> .wa 422 gallons = 9 * x * pi
11:30 < yoleaux> kanzure: Sorry, no result!
11:30 < kanzure> i thought it dumped straight into mathematica (essentially)?
11:31 < jrayhawk> fucking horses
11:31 < kanzure> since he doesn't understand sarcasm you're welcome for the lifetime of his misunderstanding about your horse interests
11:32 < kanzure> your reputation is quickly growing into a horse-loving programming uh.. what was the other one.
11:32 < chris_99> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jp7111395
11:32 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/e2c41050b767b21e671568de45bf8e31.pdf
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12:19 < kanzure> why don't we have someone in here obsessed with watches
12:19 < delinquentme> kanzure, I am...  but I just dont spend cash on them
12:21 < chris_99> kanzure, did you see that CSAC on kickstarter?
12:22 < kanzure> no, but actually i was thinking more about mechanical watches
12:22 < chris_99> ah
12:22 < kanzure> atomic watches are okay things
12:23 < kanzure> h dear "Due to the presence of a COM port, the Cesium 133 prototype is capable of displaying numerous functions beyond simple timekeeping when connected via RS-232 cable"
12:23 < kanzure> *oh dear
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12:30 < xmj> jrayhawk: now i have to flip my nutrition
12:30  * xmj sighs
12:33 < kanzure> i wonder if someone really thought they had to spell it out http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zj1YpnAR-cA/SOsKbpbgVJI/AAAAAAAAABE/dIG2CYW7I9s/s1600-h/Squid37D.jpg
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12:59 < kanzure> http://nerds.airbnb.com/do-it-yourself-ach-direct-deposit/
12:59 < kanzure> "One of the most frequent implementation questions that I am asked by entrepreneurs is how does Airbnb make ACH direct deposits into customers’ bank accounts. There seems to be a wave of transactional marketplaces being built and everyone wants this capability. Surprisingly, there were few, if any, plug-and-play providers of this service when I implemented our solution for Airbnb, though I do know multiple companies who are building ...
12:59 < kanzure> ... products around this now."
12:59 < kanzure> "The do-it-yourself solution is quite straightforward though. Most commercial banks have an interface that can be activated by request that allows you to make ACH deposits. Like many startups in the Bay Area, we are a customer of Silicon Valley Bank, and, as a result, our original implementation used the SVBeConnect ACH Service. Each day our system would output a CSV file that contained batched deposit instructions (basically amount and ...
12:59 < kanzure> ... beneficiary account details). Each weekday someone in our office would upload the file to the bank, though this step can be automated using secure FTP."
12:59 < kanzure> yikes.
13:00 < kanzure> "Validation can be accomplished by issuing a “pre note” (a special type of transaction in which no money is transferred) or by making a micro deposit. If the account details are wrong, a notification is typically generated within 1-3 business days. Another manual step is collecting these error notifications each day and notifying the customer. Although it would be nice if an API or XML report existed for this, a manual, but streamlined ...
13:00 < kanzure> ... workflow is sufficient for our needs."
13:00 < kanzure> huh there's an "official" ACH site
13:00 < kanzure> https://www.nacha.org/
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13:04 < kanzure> jrayhawk: what was the name of bart's bootstrapping company?
13:04 < kanzure> maybe it wasn't bart
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13:36 < jrayhawk> bart at least had a strong academic interest in bootstrapping
13:36 < jrayhawk> i don't recall a company ever being formed
13:37 < jrayhawk> jblake would know more
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13:43 < kanzure> jrayhawk: it was about servers and build toolchains
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13:47 < jrayhawk> oh, http://apters.com/
13:49 < jrayhawk> NixOS is also of interest
13:55 < kanzure> there's this weird bootstrapping problem with getting development environments to the right people
13:55 < kanzure> and then they need to be able to get the right environments to build the development environments.. (wtf)
13:55 < kanzure> and then the development environments can build the production environments
13:56 < Lemminkainen> vagrants all the way down
13:57 < kanzure> does vagrant's .dmg install on osx without xcode and without the non-gui xcode bundle?
13:57 < kanzure> biggest problem so far has been team members (on whatever projects) using osx
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13:57 < Lemminkainen> people would be trying to mount any of this without their osx set up for dev?
13:58 < kanzure> and i think the only option is something like oracle virtualbox for using vagrant on osx
13:58 < kanzure> unless you shell out for vmware fusion and that vagrant plugin
13:58 < kanzure> ugh
14:02 < jrayhawk> git annex seems like an okay way to distribute build environment stuff nowadays
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14:25 < xentrac> Lemminkainen: it would be nice to be able to run my entire dev env in Linux without having to worry about proper suspend driver support for my hypothetical macbook
14:27 < cpopell> I'm being lazy and just using c9 right now because my dev env is very limited
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14:39 < Lemminkainen> aren't you on Windows, cpopell ?
14:39 < cpopell> yeah, but c9 works in linux as well
14:40 < Lemminkainen> yes, because it is browser-based
14:41 < Lemminkainen> unless you're trying to get demonstrable quals in the M$ product space to make yourself more eligible for employment, there's no reason to not save yourself the heartbreak by switching to a linux
14:41 < Lemminkainen> at least on a VM basis
14:41 < cpopell> I also have no reason to switch to linux from doing it on the cloud right now.
14:41 < kanzure> "no reason"
14:41 < kanzure> that's a funny one
14:42 < Lemminkainen> cloud9 is cute
14:42 < kanzure> it's annoying
14:42 < Lemminkainen> but not cute like I want to fuck it
14:42 < Lemminkainen> cute like a retarded 3-legged dog humping someone's leg
14:42 < kanzure> why is the 3-legged dog also retarded?
14:42 < Lemminkainen> he got hit on the head pretty hard when he lost his leg
14:42 < kanzure> alright
14:42 < Lemminkainen> he's never been the same since
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14:44 < jrayhawk>  /window 4
14:44 < jrayhawk> whoops
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15:06 < kanzure> "DJ Taucher Presents - Adult Music On DI 050 (March 2014) Recorded Live from Schaeller Schaffhausen Part 2"
15:06 < kanzure> what makes music adult?
15:06 < cpopell>  it's 18 years old?
15:07 < kanzure> doesn't sound like it? http://pub5.di.fm/di_progressive_aac?type=.flv
15:08 < kanzure> ew now it's gross
15:08 < nmz787_i> fenn: do you still have contact with langton labs?
15:08 < kanzure> you never really escape langton
15:09 < nmz787_i> me and 3 friends need a place to stay during makerfaire, we could grab a motel room but we'd like reduce costs if possible
15:09 < kanzure> langton juvenile subversion-correctional facility
15:10 < nmz787_i> also if anyone here is local to Portland OR area and knows Cadence Allegro and Python and wants a job, send your resume my way
15:11 < kanzure> is that allegro the 2d framework
15:11 < nmz787_i> umm, PCB layout
15:11 < nmz787_i> which I guess is layers of 2D
15:11 < kanzure> nah different thing
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15:16 < eudoxia> "subversion-correctional facility" sounds like the name of a git bootcamp
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15:27 < kanzure> singularity 1987: the disco http://www.tampabay.com/resources/images/dti/rendered/2012/12/lat_disco1_120912_251011a_8col.jpg
15:27 < kanzure> at least, that's what i think they were like
15:27 < kanzure> "extropy" was originally a disco club in the 70s and uh, their mailing list was the only way they could survive
15:47 < kanzure> neato https://github.com/gulpjs/gulp/blob/master/docs/recipes/fast-browserify-builds-with-watchify.md
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16:31 < kanzure> delinquentme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlQVP6Q9mnY
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17:04 < kanzure> heath: ouch.. https://github.com/marcello3d/gulp-watchify/blob/master/examples/simple/gulpfile.js
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17:33 < delinquentme> kanzure, its been too long since I've picked up new mejal
17:33 < delinquentme> but these guys... DESTROY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIL-vgHNOu0
17:33 < delinquentme> and its a chick screamer
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17:39 < Lemminkainen> delinquentme is a cartoon character, right?
17:40 < kanzure> more like the dog you take out back to shoot
17:40 < jrayhawk> perhaps you are thinking of Felonious Gru from Despicable Me
17:40 < jrayhawk> but yes, regardless
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18:27 < kanzure> cash-vs-equity compensation proposal https://medium.com/p/12ddebcc63ef
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21:53 < kanzure> https://www.tindie.com/products/gxti/laureline-gps-ntp-server/
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22:16 < kanzure> there should be software pimped to erowid users for anti-over-dose stuff
22:16 < kanzure> oh right, liability. hrm.
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22:26 < xmj> kanzure: what's erowid?
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22:28 <@ParahSailin> drugs are natures hugs
22:29 < kanzure> erowid is an old cyberpunk magazine that advocated the use of violence in kazakhstan
22:30 < GoatStimulator> lol
22:33 < AshleyWaffle> lol
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22:50 < kanzure> fenn: how about pulling a technology tree out of patent citation graph data
22:51 < kanzure> i feel bad for even thinking that
22:52 < Lemminkainen> kanzure that bad thought will make cpopell very, very hard
22:52 < kanzure> i regret everything
22:52 < kanzure> is there any way to prevent him from seeing that
22:53 < Lemminkainen> you could kick him for a while
22:53 < kanzure> too suspicious
22:54 < kanzure> also doesn't delete his backlog
22:56 < Lemminkainen> I regret my complicity in this
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22:57 < xentrac> kanzure: you should try it
22:57 < xentrac> the tree, I mean, not the kicking
22:58 < kanzure> but the data is probably bogus anyway
22:58 < kanzure> patents aren't about technology, they are about citing as much barely-disqualifying-as-unrelated prior art as possible
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23:00 < xentrac> clearly most of the data is bogus
23:00 < xentrac> the question is whether you can extract anything non-bogus from it
23:01 < xentrac> and you might be able to
23:01 < kanzure> what would be a metric that would tell me it's not bad data?
23:03 < xentrac> maybe you could produce a human-readable result and see if some randomly selected parts of it were correct
23:06 < cpopell> I was corresponding with the people working on tech forecasting via patent citation graph data.
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23:07 < xentrac> how does that work?
23:08 < cpopell> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.3933.pdf this was an earlier paper on it
23:09 < xentrac> that looks pretty awesome actually
23:10 < xentrac> it looks like it would work a lot better for mapping out past technological dependencies than for forecasting future development
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23:10 < cpopell> apparently they've had some success
23:11 < xentrac> although admittedly I've only spent <3 minutes reading it while distractedly reading xoJane articles about miscarriages and losing virginity
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23:43 < xmj> not surprising, getting distracted while reading crap
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23:46 < QuantumG> "developing technology" has a lot to do with funding and token efforts at patent filing is a good predictor of commercial funding I expect.
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 22 00:00:47 2014