--- Log opened Sat Apr 26 00:00:51 2014 00:02 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:05 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has quit [Client Quit] 00:07 -!- ryankarason is now known as rak[1] 00:25 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:48 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:52 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-puqbjjyvougetrez] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:05 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:08 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:12 < fenn> offline wikipedia viewer 01:12 -!- ebowden_ is now known as ebowden 01:15 < nmz787> diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/3D_MEMS_Design_Method_via_SolidWorks.pdf 01:16 < nmz787> I have no idea what that paper is doing 01:17 < nmz787> kanzure: awake? can you recommend a good dexter's lab episode to watch? 01:17 < fenn> .title http://stylebot.me/styles/5568 01:18 * fenn wonders where yoleaux went 01:18 < fenn> anyway, i fixed the awful gigantic button bar in google groups 01:18 < fenn> it was a clusterfuck 01:23 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:26 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:37 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@31.20.196.86] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:39 < fenn> nmz787: ren and stimpy episodes "space madness", "marooned", and "black hole" are pretty good 01:41 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:56 -!- kyknos_ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:59 -!- kyknos__ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:00 < dingo> 'rick and morty' is a great new show 02:04 -!- augur_ [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 02:14 < fenn> i ended up finding the best wikipedia torrent on, yep, the pirate bay: http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/9704733/Entirety_of_Wikipedia_in_English_with_pictures_[40GB] 02:21 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:35 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:35 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@31.20.196.86] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 02:45 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:45 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:51 -!- Phyks [~Phyks@phyks.me] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 02:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-60-231-183-36.lns4.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:00 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:11 < xmj> anyone here read http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0092413 ? 03:11 < xmj> .article http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0092413 03:12 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:16 -!- cpopell is now known as cpopell`sleep 03:21 -!- yoleaux [~yoleaux@xn--ht-1ia18f.nonceword.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:28 < AshleyWaffle> http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/comments/240tec/cantwell_drama_war_escalates_into_fullon/ 03:31 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:32 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:18 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:31 < fenn> .title http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0092413 04:31 < yoleaux> PLOS ONE: Using Friends as Sensors to Detect Global-Scale Contagious Outbreaks 04:32 < fenn> sounds deviously devilish 04:34 < xmj> should be awesome for social engineering hacks to your friend network 04:37 < fenn> AshleyWaffle: a link to a reddit linking to screenshots of facebook about some whining between people we don't know and don't care about? why? 04:37 < fenn> AshleyWaffle: are you actually trying to lower the signal to noise ratio of this channel? 04:44 < xentrac> jrayhawk: thank you for the papers! 04:50 -!- phillyj [~Thunderbi@c-68-80-251-160.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:59 -!- ParahSailin_ 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[~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:58 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:59 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:01 -!- ParahSailin_ [~parahsail@unaffiliated/parahsailin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:03 -!- Auctwo [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03 -!- Auctwo [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:04 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0092413 07:04 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Using%20Friends%20as%20Sensors%20to%20Detect%20Global-Scale%20Contagious%20Outbreaks.pdf 07:04 < gradstudentbot> I'm only doing this to get tenure. 07:04 < kanzure> fenn: here you go, 07:04 < kanzure> 02:23 <+dpk> kanzure: archive.org's torrent tracker ought to do that stuff 07:04 < kanzure> 02:23 <+dpk> kanzure: and, if you find comprehensive Usenet archives anywhere that aren't under Google's lock and key … you'll be an internet superhero 07:06 < xmj> kanzure: good catch 07:07 < xmj> reads interesting. 07:07 < kanzure> i didn't want to bother finding the pdf on my own 07:07 < kanzure> i already put the effort into the paperbot, why should i be subjected to the existential horror that is plosone.org? 07:07 < kanzure> and your sarcasm is poorly done 07:32 -!- Aucthree [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:34 < kanzure> hrm 07:35 -!- Auctwo [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:40 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:40 -!- pads is now known as Guest79184 07:42 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:56 -!- Aucthree is now known as Auctus 07:56 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 07:56 -!- Auctus [~Auctus@unaffiliated/auctus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:56 < archels> paperbot: http://iopscience.iop.org/0967-3334/21/1/301/pdf/0967-3334_21_1_301.pdf 08:02 -!- kuldeepdhaka_ [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:16 < paperbot> AssertionError: ElementTree not initialized, missing root (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 53, in _go) 08:17 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:17 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1088/0967-3334/21/1/301 08:17 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/A%20comparison%20of%20modified%20Howland%20circuits%20as%20current%20generators%20with%20current%20mirror%20type%20circuits.pdf 08:20 < kanzure> paperbot took a long time on that iop paper 08:22 < ebowden> Oh, ParahSailin, I forget, what was it you worked with? 08:22 < kanzure> stop doing that 08:23 < kanzure> you should just ask questions without caring whether ParahSailin or me or anyone else answers 08:23 < kanzure> "fields of study" is horse crap 08:23 < kanzure> smelly horse crap 08:23 < kanzure> not the good kind 08:31 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:53 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-32.wireless.umd.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:58 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/msb.145228 08:58 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/d14902f261f0efb1e1afc4a533c7eb29.txt 08:58 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:00 < ParahSailin> paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1002/msb.20145228 09:00 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9f3c1f6bb5b02c96fd900e290172fd73.txt 09:09 -!- Auctwo [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 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has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 28.0/20140314220517]] 10:52 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:54 -!- nsh__ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:55 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:06 -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:06 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:06 -!- pads is now known as Guest77675 11:08 -!- Guest79184 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:13 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/systemantics.pdf (28 MB) 11:17 -!- hkm [~hkm@2001:4801:7817:72:1a3:b0e6:ff11:6146] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:31 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:ddb2:cf20:a7f5:e2a7] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:35 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:ddb2:cf20:a7f5:e2a7] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:39 < kanzure> that was much shorter and boring than i thought it would be 11:39 < kanzure> and a great deal more pessimism than necessary 11:44 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:ddb2:cf20:a7f5:e2a7] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:47 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:48 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:ddb2:cf20:a7f5:e2a7] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:48 < kanzure> and it doesn't explain why anything works at all in the first place 11:49 < cpopell`sleep> What sort of systems are you hoping to read about? 11:50 < kanzure> i don't think that's my goal? 11:50 < cpopell`sleep> okay, why did you read that book 11:50 < kanzure> because i had read the wikipedia article, and i wanted to see the book 11:50 < kanzure> turns out the wikipedia article is better 11:51 -!- hkm [~hkm@2001:4801:7817:72:1a3:b0e6:ff11:6146] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 11:51 < delinquentme> Is it totally nuts to think that if we took tissue / cell samples from a currently ages human, and fixed up the methlyation to be modeled after a younger set of DNA , performed this modification in mass and then injected them into their respective tissues 11:51 < delinquentme> that this would lessen effects of aging? 11:52 < delinquentme> I mean isn't this the function which is tied to heterochronic parabiosis? as well as the beneficial growth factors extreted by "younger" immuno identical cells? 11:53 < cpopell`sleep> you could always go write a grant proposal 11:54 < kanzure> that's a boring answer 11:55 < cpopell`sleep> kanzure: it'll occupy him 100 hours and get him to focus on one topic for that long, though! 11:55 < kanzure> no it wont 11:55 < kanzure> he is incapable of that 11:55 < delinquentme> But it would work right? 11:55 < delinquentme> I love it the career academics cutting on me because the cognitive dissonance caused by switching costs in focuses 11:56 < kanzure> it wont make you spend 100 hours on a grant 11:56 < delinquentme> cpopell`sleep, seriously dont add to the noise. 11:56 < kanzure> if that's what you mean by will it work 11:56 < cpopell`sleep> I'm not a career academic, I just see you on facebook. 11:57 < delinquentme> cpopell`sleep, add to the convo or dont. 11:57 < delinquentme> talking heads, we dont fucking need them. thanks. 11:57 < delinquentme> kanzure, I'm asking if this is inline with out best knowledge on the topic 11:57 < delinquentme> methlyation patters are essentially how embryonic differs from IPSCs 11:57 < gradstudentbot> The grant got rejected. 12:00 -!- nsh__ is now known as nsh 12:13 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-kqehhessvknfrexy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:43 -!- _Sol_ [SolGr@c-50-166-90-49.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:46 < xentrac> delinquentme: I don't know enough to know if that will work but it sounds like one of the elements of SENS? 12:50 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:04 -!- _0bitcount [~big-byte@213.37.172.228.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:04 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:08 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 13:31 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:42 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:ddb2:cf20:a7f5:e2a7] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:49 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:54 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:58e8:fa15:933d:2d21] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:56 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:00 < kanzure> fenn: ted should write a story where there's a conservation of cognitive effort, and it gets shifted around. or maybe egan. probably ted. 14:01 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-kqehhessvknfrexy] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:09 -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-67-176-51-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:10 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-67-176-51-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:28 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:58e8:fa15:933d:2d21] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:34 < pasky> paperbot: http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/10.1287/ijoc.2.1.4 14:34 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/bb89484d750ba85af30792f8a6f0a8c7.txt 14:34 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:35 < pasky> hmm 14:35 < pasky> paperbot: http://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/pdf/10.1287/ijoc.2.1.4 14:35 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/fe221c9f37a55a7d313492a2c438ffa0.txt 14:40 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-129-32.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:40 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:58e8:fa15:933d:2d21] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:42 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:44 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has quit [Client Quit] 14:47 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 < kanzure> http://miki.it/images/bitiodine_design.png 14:59 < kanzure> "CLUSTERIZER -> clusters" ugh 15:17 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 15:22 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-178-131-150.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:24 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:29 -!- _0bitcount [~big-byte@213.37.172.228.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:32 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:38 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 15:38 < kanzure> rm blockchain.tar.gz y/n? 15:39 < kanzure> from 2013-12-03, 7 GB, so most likely behind 15:42 < kanzure> "Enhancing the role of ultrasound with contrast agents" including "Guidance of Percutaneous Tumor Ablation Procedures" 15:42 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast-enhanced_ultrasound 15:42 < kanzure> "Contrast-enhanced ultrasound (CEUS) is the application of ultrasound contrast medium to traditional medical sonography. Ultrasound contrast agents rely on the different ways in which sound waves are reflected from interfaces between substances. This may be the surface of a small air bubble or a more complex structure. Commercially available contrast media are gas-filled microbubbles that are administered intravenously to the systemic ... 15:43 < kanzure> ... circulation. Microbubbles have a high degree of echogenicity, which is the ability of an object to reflect the ultrasound waves." 15:43 < kanzure> "argeted microbubbles are under preclinical development. They retain the same general features as untargeted microbubbles, but they are outfitted with ligands that bind specific receptors expressed by cell types of interest, such as inflamed cells or cancer cells. Current microbubbles in development are composed of a lipid monolayer shell with a perflurocarbon gas core. The lipid shell is also covered with a polyethylene glycol (PEG) layer. ... 15:43 < kanzure> ... PEG prevents microbubble aggregation and makes the microbubble more non-reactive. It temporarily “hides” the microbubble from the immune system uptake, increasing the amount of circulation time, and hence, imaging time.[5]" 15:44 < kanzure> "Gene Delivery: Vector DNA can be conjugated to the microbubbles. Microbubbles can be targeted with ligands that bind to receptors expressed by the cell type of interest. When the targeted microbubble accumulates at the cell surface with its DNA payload, ultrasound can be used to burst the microbubble. The force associated with the bursting may temporarily permeablize surrounding tissues and allow the DNA to more easily enter the cells." 15:44 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:45 < kanzure> "Ultrasound produces more heat as the frequency increases, so the ultrasonic frequency must be carefully monitored." aka stimulation yo 15:45 < kanzure> "Microbubbles burst at low ultrasound frequencies and at high mechanical indices (MI), which is the measure of the acoustic power output of the ultrasound imaging system. Increasing MI increases image quality, but there are tradeoffs with microbubble destruction. Microbubble destruction could cause local microvasculature ruptures and hemolysis" 15:46 < kanzure> maybe someone has tried a liganderized microbubble for ultrasound stimulation or tumor ablation 15:51 -!- balrog [~balrog@discferret/developer/balrog] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:04 < kanzure> um, this seems to claim they were able to target the hippocampus with microbubbles: http://orion.bme.columbia.edu/ueil/documents/article/2011-choi-bbb-pulses-microbubbles.pdf 16:09 < kanzure> "One of the advantages of FUS-induced BBB disruption is the ability to noninvasively, locally, and transiently deliver agents to a target region of interest. Large molecules of 3, 10, and 70 kDa were delivered to the left hippocampus, which is relevant for several drugs such as bace-1 inhibitors and brain-derived neurotrophic factors." 16:15 < kanzure> this one is also cool: "Intracerebral administration of ultrasound-induced dissolution of lipid-coated GDNF microbubbles provides neuroprotection in a rat model of Parkinson's disease" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361923014000252 16:20 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:22 < kanzure> hm well if it was carrying something that could stimulate a neuron it would have to get out of the bloodstream first 16:37 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:41 -!- rak[1] is now known as rak[rock-gym] 17:09 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:13 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:15 -!- Auctwo [~Auctus@122-57-138-207.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Only $19.95 for a custom quit message? What a deal!] 17:29 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:36 -!- AshleyWaffle_ is now known as AshleyWaffle 17:41 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:55 < fenn> "hplusroadmap: the cognitive load stops here" 17:55 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:56 < fenn> "read my lips: no new cognitive taxes" 17:56 < fenn> the pitfalls of an attention economy 17:59 < fenn> "gas-filled microbubbles that are administered intravenously" holy shit that's awesome 18:01 < fenn> you know how in "the abyss" they submerge the rat (and the un/fortunate human) in perfluoroalkanes,, you could use the same microbubble capsulation tech to increase blood oxygenation capacity 18:01 < fenn> is this thing on 18:01 < fenn> thunderstorm 18:01 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:02 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-169-26.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:03 * eudoxia mumbles something about respirocytes 18:08 < fenn> eudoxia: how do you do that? 18:08 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:08 < FourFire> I just found out about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krista_and_Tatiana_Hogan 18:08 < FourFire> They share parts of their brain 18:08 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:09 < fenn> they are also pro wrestlers 18:09 < eudoxia> fenn: "freitas money richard smalley ruined it all " 18:09 < fenn> eudoxia: i meant how you appear suddenly from the mists of ether 18:10 < eudoxia> fenn: well i read the logs compulsively 18:10 < eudoxia> and have a little bit of js produce a link to today's and yesterday's logs in my homepage 18:10 < eudoxia> s/homepage/browser start page 18:10 < fenn> oh i thought maybe it was some cool lisp thing that acts like an irc session without actually connecting 18:11 < eudoxia> i haven't reached the point where i have a monitor exclusively dedicated to showing the logs in real time, no 18:12 < FourFire> fenn, was that a joke? 18:12 < fenn> FourFire: not a very good one 18:12 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12 < FourFire> I guess this is old news to you people 18:12 < fenn> no, i had no idea who they were 18:13 < FourFire> but two seperate distinct people sharing parts of the same brain seems pretty interesting (and scary) to me 18:13 < FourFire> I wonder how mentally developed they are now 18:14 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:16 < fenn> oh i did see a short documentary about them 18:16 < fenn> they tickle one girl and the other laughs 18:17 < eudoxia> i wonder if as they grow they skull area around where they are joined will fracture or something 18:18 < fenn> that's what the adamantium exoskeleton is for 18:20 < fenn> woo 10 minutes until i have my very own wikipedia 18:21 < fenn> i wonder why nobody is selling it on DVD 18:22 < xentrac> fenn: how much oxygen can your blood hold now, and how much would it be able to hold in microbubbles? 18:22 < fenn> i have no idea 18:22 < xentrac> this sounds like a thing you could calculate more or less 18:23 < fenn> it's complicated because of hemoglobin 18:23 < fenn> someone's probably measured though 18:23 < gradstudentbot> I don't think my PI remembers me. 18:24 < xentrac> I'm sure normal hematocrit, blood volume, hemoglobin sensity, and oxygen/hemoglobin mass ratio are well-known numbers that you could multiply 18:24 < fenn> theoretically "20 ml of O2 per 100 mL of blood" (those units seem wrong, ml of oxygen?) 18:25 < fenn> "1 g of hemoglobin theoretically can bind a maximum of 1.34 mL of oxygen at standard temperature and pressure, but this value is never actually achieved in vivo because of factors such as the formation of carboxyhemoglobin and the presence of methemoglobin or other inactive hemoglobins." 18:25 < xentrac> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=128408463846483&set=a.185551951465467.38579.128407360513260&type=1&theater 18:25 < xentrac> photo of Tatiana and Krista 18:27 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28 < fenn> "Patent 4927623    1. Field of the Invention:The present invention relates to the art of biocompatible oxygen transport and contrast enhancement agents for animal use, and more particularly to biocompatibly fluid fluorocarbon containing emulsions" 18:29 < xentrac> 20 mL of oxygen per 100 mL is about the same as what air contains 18:30 < fenn> sure, spoil the party 18:31 < xentrac> gases aren't very dense 18:31 < xentrac> as a general rule 18:32 < fenn> so you'd probably want two kinds of respirocytes, one to dissolve oxygen and one to dissolve carbon dioxide 18:33 < fenn> there was some proposal about pumping molecules up an energy gradient but i think that's too complex for a first step 18:33 < xentrac> to cite two more surprising results of this, seawater contains more CO₂ per volume than air does, and pure fluorine is not the best source of fluorine at STP 18:34 < fenn> what do you mean "best source of fluorine"? 18:34 < xentrac> most available fluorine for fluoridating things per mL 18:34 < fenn> like SF6 has more fluorine than F2? 18:35 -!- augur_ [~augur@pool-71-178-142-135.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:35 < fenn> (about three times as much, i'd wager) 18:35 < xentrac> it has more, but it isn't really very available 18:35 < xentrac> I mean, you can breathe SF₆ 18:35 < xentrac> without combusting 18:36 < fenn> lol 18:36 < xentrac> whereas breathing fluorine will cause you to combust 18:36 < fenn> you can breathe CO2 without combusting too 18:36 -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-178-131-150.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:37 < xentrac> yes, and in fact CO₂ is pretty terrible as a source of oxygen 18:37 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:37 < xentrac> to the point that you can use it in welding to keep (some) metals from oxidizing 18:37 < xentrac> however, ClF₃ is excellent as a source of fluorine 18:38 < fenn> today i learned about interhalogens 18:39 < xentrac> truly awe-inspiring substances 18:40 < fenn> "ClF3 reacts more violently than fluorine, often explosively." 18:41 < fenn> oh there is a ClF5 too 18:41 < xentrac> that sounds like a positively impractical substance 18:41 < xentrac> like neutronium 18:42 < fenn> iodine heptafluoride 18:42 < fenn> neutronium seems eminently practical 18:43 < xentrac> for what? 18:44 < fenn> "starquake" is about creatures that evolved on a neutron star; humans in a spaceship happen by and hilarity ensues due to the difference in time scales. 1 second is about 1000 subjective years for the neutronium people 18:45 < eudoxia> robert forward should have become more famous 18:45 < fenn> at some point there is a technology transfer; turns out having stupidly fast timescales based on nuclear force interactions makes for fast computers 18:45 < xentrac> the problem is that you have to build your computer on a neutron star 18:46 < fenn> the neutronium people develop a space program where they figure out how to contain neutronium with microsingularities or something 18:46 < fenn> oh, "dragon's egg" is the first book 18:47 < eudoxia> are neutronium femtocomputers even remotely possible 18:47 < xentrac> there's a big difference between "hypothetical undiscovered physics introduced as a plot device in a novel would make it practical" and "practical" 18:47 < xentrac> in my book anyway 18:47 < eudoxia> xentrac: "greg egan" practical 18:47 < xentrac> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_trifluoride is a highly entertaining Wikipedia page 18:48 < xentrac> .g "greg egan" practical 18:48 < yoleaux> http://www.technologyreview.com/review/523826/an-ai-pal-that-is-better-than-her/ 18:48 < fenn> such a tiny font 18:49 < xentrac> that article is very interesting indeed 18:49 < eudoxia> i think it's quite readable 18:50 < xentrac> I especially like the "solubility" section of that Wikipedia page 18:52 < eudoxia> "It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers" 18:52 < eudoxia> hah 18:55 < xentrac> all of Ignition is good reading 18:55 < xentrac> I'm amused that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highly_toxic_gases exists 18:58 < fenn> the lists articles are the best thing about wikipedia 18:59 < fenn> i should print a wikibook, List of lists of things 18:59 < xentrac> that sounds like a good idea 18:59 < xentrac> you should use my tiny font 18:59 < fenn> speaking of which, my 45000 articles are ready 19:00 < xentrac> oh cool, which ones? 19:01 < fenn> kiwix screenshot http://fennetic.net/irc/wikipedia_0.8_kiwix.png 19:01 < xentrac> kiwix is good 19:03 < fenn> it doesn't have "interhalogen" 19:04 < fenn> this is also 4 years old 19:04 < fenn> i couldn't find one under 8GB that was more recent but also comprehensive 19:04 < fenn> there's a few "simple english" but meh 19:05 < fenn> anyway the 40GB one should be everything i want, published feb 2014 19:06 < fenn> maybe i can reduce the file size with your byn techniques or even just resizing the thumbnails 19:07 < fenn> Chlamydia infection · Chlodwig, Prince of Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst · Chloramphenicol · Chlordiazepoxide · Chloride · Chlorine · Chlorine dioxide · Chlorofluorocarbon · Chloroform · Chlorophyll · Chlorophyta · Chloroplast · Chlorpromazine · Chmod · 19:07 < xentrac> by the way, "byn" is an abbreviation for "blanco y negro" 19:08 < fenn> that's okay, it's unique and short 19:08 < xentrac> yes 19:08 < fenn> i figured it was "bynary" or something 19:08 < xentrac> it seems like it should be possible to select the top N articles by hit count 19:09 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-peotnkhylkxvylxr] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:12 < fenn> "random article" from the 45000 actually doesn't suck 19:13 < fenn> oh cool it has animated gifs 19:13 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_diffusion 19:14 < fenn> i wonder if i can force a css override in their xulrunner 19:15 < fenn> hm it does skins and inverted colors out of the box, that's pretty sweet 19:16 < gradstudentbot> The fluorescent microscope is broken. 19:17 < fenn> hue inverted, weird 19:20 < fenn> http://fennetic.net//irc/kiwix_hue_inverted.png 19:22 < xentrac> that looks like the hue is not inverted, but rather the value 19:22 < xentrac> or intensity 19:23 < kanzure> fenn: the story would attempt to explain why people have "off" days ("all the computational capacity was shifted to those other jerks") 19:23 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/kiwix_hue_invert2.png http://fennetic.net/irc/kiwix_hue_invert3.png 19:23 < fenn> oh right, i was thinking a double negative 19:24 < fenn> value invert makes more sense 19:24 < kanzure> fenn, so the microbubble-based increase of blood oxygen would involve the use of ultrasound to break the bubbles? 19:24 < fenn> xcalib -i -a makes it hue inverted :P 19:25 < fenn> kanzure: no you'd just stuff liquid fluorocarbon in the microbubbles instead of gaseous fluorocarbon 19:25 < xentrac> bash: xcalib: command not found 19:25 < fenn> presumably it dissolves more oxygen per unit volume than blood, but i don't really know 19:26 < xentrac> I'd be surprised 19:26 < kanzure> when would the microbubbles break? 19:26 < fenn> never! 19:26 < kanzure> clearly i don't understand 19:26 < fenn> they are just artificial oxygen transport vesicles 19:27 < kanzure> and why did you have to envoke freitasian respirocytes? 19:27 < fenn> oxygen diffuses into and out of the vesicles 19:27 < fenn> uh, eudoxia did 19:27 < kanzure> so confusion 19:27 < fenn> iirc freitas was talking about active systems that pump oxygen in and out 19:28 < fenn> 1000 atm internal pressure 19:28 < kanzure> i thought his respirocytes idea was just molecular nanotech floating around in your body doing uh, stuff 19:29 < kanzure> i don't remember anything about a pressurized oxygen container? 19:29 < fenn> yes, where stuff = compressed oxygen 19:29 < kanzure> what wavelength are you operating on 19:29 < fenn> dude, google "respirocyte" 19:29 < kanzure> .g respirocyte 19:29 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respirocyte 19:29 < kanzure> fuck 19:30 < kanzure> hm, so, i think bubbles are more practical than making a micrometer-sized red blood cell replacement 19:31 < fenn> well they exist already, that's a plus 19:31 < kanzure> "Muscle fatigue results from inadequate supply of oxygen to the muscles during intense exercise, leading to inefficient lactic acid fermentation. If respirocytes could increase the supply of oxygen despite exercise, it should be possible to reduce muscle fatigue, increasing a person's endurance." if that was true, you would be able to do EPO straight into the muscles in lab testing 19:31 < fenn> actually muscle fatigue is mostly due to overheating 19:31 < kanzure> or rather, i should say, people would have done said weird direct-line-of-EPO study 19:31 < kanzure> (maybe they have) 19:32 < fenn> huh? i dont know what you're trying to say 19:32 < kanzure> nada 19:32 < kanzure> how many cells are not immediately served by blood? 19:32 < fenn> corneal cells, bone cells, skin cells, um.. not many 19:33 < kanzure> so each neuron has direct access to blood? 19:33 < fenn> depends what you mean by "direct" 19:34 < fenn> shredding the BBB to get more oxygen seems like a bad idea 19:35 < kanzure> nah, i mean, where is the blood: http://www.nia.nih.gov/sites/default/files/nia-ad-image04_large.jpg 19:36 < fenn> you know better than that kanzure 19:36 < kanzure> aroo? 19:36 < fenn> there's no space between neurons 19:37 < fenn> also they don't emit a yellow glow 19:37 < kanzure> okay fine, if there's no space then there's no space for bloodz 19:37 < fenn> right, and there's no space for bubbles either 19:38 < kanzure> then how do neurons get anything 19:38 < fenn> diffusion 19:38 < kanzure> bubbles can't be diffused? 19:38 < fenn> it's not just neurons; blood cells don't cross the endothelium. all cells get their oxygen by diffusion 19:39 < fenn> if a gas is diffusing through a liquid, it's dissolved and thus not a bubble 19:39 < kanzure> what about this one? http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0361923014000252 they were lying and the bubbles really didn't reach neurons? 19:40 < gradstudentbot> Whatever, I'm really dating school anyway. 19:41 < fenn> in this case the bubbles are full of GDNF, a protein, probably suspended in water 19:41 < fenn> either your bubbles are impermeable, or they are large, or they dissolve almost instantly 19:42 < fenn> "release GDNF in a sustained manner after low frequency ultrasound stimulation" 19:43 < fenn> this says nothing about bubbles crossing the BBB 19:43 < kanzure> ah interesting 19:43 < fenn> also i thought they used ultrasound to locally disrupt the BBB 19:43 < kanzure> that was another one 19:43 < fenn> otherwise GDNF wouldn't get through either 19:44 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-mrqlsaitachceils] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:46 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-mrqlsaitachceils] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48 -!- _Sol_ [SolGr@c-50-166-90-49.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:49 < kanzure> well, still might have some opportunity for neuron-specific targetting 19:50 < fenn> are you on a nanoparticle kick or something? 19:50 < kanzure> nope 19:50 < kanzure> ultrasound kick 19:51 < kanzure> i didn't know about ultrasound-specific contrast agents 19:52 < kanzure> which is nice for imaging, but other possible payloads might be possible 19:53 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:53 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:53 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@36.90-149-182.nextgentel.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:54 < fenn> .tell ebowden http://orion.bme.columbia.edu/ueil/documents/article/2011-choi-bbb-pulses-microbubbles.pdf 19:54 < yoleaux> fenn: I'll pass your message to ebowden. 19:55 < fenn> kanzure: not just possible, but demonstrated 19:55 < kanzure> transcranial ultrasound stimulation might benefit from a related concept 19:55 < kanzure> or direct current or magnetic stimulation 19:55 < fenn> yo dawg i heard you liked contrast agents so we put a contrast agent in your contrast agent so you can contrast your agents while you age 19:56 < fenn> it would be cool if you could make the bubbles respond to only a specific frequency 19:57 < kanzure> maybe it varies by diameter of bubble 19:57 < kanzure> or bubble material (the other paper was using microspheres of some plastic crap?) 19:57 < fenn> the medium is compressible so i think sub-wavelength bubbles will compress 19:58 < fenn> s/compress/respond/ 19:59 < fenn> you'd need something like a long tube coiled up into a spiral 19:59 < fenn> when it resonates, the end caps/plugs fall out and drugs are released. yeah that's the ticket 20:00 < kanzure> and why would they have not fallen out sooner? 20:00 < fenn> because they're shoved in really tight 20:01 < fenn> also see the difference between "snap fit" (restoring force) and "press fit" (restraining force) 20:01 < fenn> snap fit limits by amplitude threshold, press fit limits by integral 20:02 < fenn> okay so you take a tupperware container, put your stash of drugs in it, set it in front of the shrink ray... 20:03 < kanzure> i don't know if tupperware is press or snap fit 20:03 < fenn> some people just do bong rips 20:03 < fenn> the original rubbermaid "tupperware" brand was press fit, but most modern stuff is snap fit 20:04 < entelechios> snap fit is the shit 20:04 < fenn> 'The formerly patented "burping seal" is a famous aspect of Tupperware, which distinguished it from competitors.' 20:05 < kanzure> microbubbles and microspheres are easier to manufacture than "a really tiny coiled up tube with medicine/payloads inside and also a really well snap fitting endcap" 20:05 < fenn> ok how about just flattened ends that leak when stimulated 20:06 < fenn> snap fit has a higher ... contrast ratio 20:06 < kanzure> what was wrong with spheres/bubbles though? 20:07 < fenn> they all respond to every frequency 20:07 < kanzure> with focused ultrasound you can just point to the place that you want, and since it's a phased array you only get the effect at a certain location 20:07 < kanzure> i guess non-phased-array would be preferable if at all possible 20:07 < kanzure> since it's "simpler" from a mechanical perspective 20:07 < fenn> it's the difference between a black and white TV and a color TV 20:08 < fenn> bubbles vs tubes i mean 20:08 < xentrac> well, and you can probably get higher gain, kanzure 20:08 < fenn> definitely want to do phased array 20:08 < xentrac> (with a parabolic reflector, say) 20:09 < fenn> you know what's simple? a hammer and a brick 20:09 < fenn> put the brick on your head, have someone hit it with a hammer 20:09 < fenn> instant ultrasound 20:09 < kanzure> i am sure a monk can cure your brain cancer with a hammer and 100 years of practice 20:09 < xentrac> I was just playing a monk 20:09 < xentrac> I got impatient and a mummy and some killer bees cured me in Minetown 20:09 < fenn> it's a matter of knowing exactly _where_ to hit it with the tiny hammer 20:10 < xentrac> they cured Minetown of me 20:10 < kanzure> one of those papers had microspheres that were coated with a specific ligand/something to target particular cells 20:10 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:11 < fenn> that's the part i don't get, microspheres are too big to fit in between cells 20:11 < kanzure> well how big is a virus capsid 20:11 < fenn> unless you meant nanoparticles 20:11 < fenn> 10-100 nm 20:11 < kanzure> oh right, virus capids are like 10-50 nm 20:11 < kanzure> blah 20:11 < fenn> actually i think the smallest is polio at around 20nm 20:12 < fenn> .wa diameter of polio 20:12 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result! 20:12 < kanzure> wolfram doesn't believe in biology 20:12 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:12 < fenn> The viral particle is about 30 nanometres in diameter with icosahedral symmetry. 20:13 < fenn> i almost bought a water filter that can screen out viruses 20:13 < fenn> i settled for "all bacteria and protozoa" instead 20:13 < fenn> it gets most viruses too 20:14 < fenn> really everyone on earth should have one of these 20:14 < kanzure> wouldn't it be better to have more effective immunity 20:15 < kanzure> i know eric hanson would say yes 20:15 < kanzure> trapped in adobe forever 20:15 < kanzure> wait, eric hunting 20:15 < kanzure> arggghh fucking namespaces 20:16 < fenn> $20 for infinitely reusable portable mechanical filter http://sawyer.com/products/type/water-filtration/ 20:17 < fenn> is eric hanson a person? 20:17 < kanzure> it's a jrayhawk person 20:17 < gradstudentbot> So, I'll let you have my reagents when I'm done with my project. 20:19 < fenn> the picture's misleading; the sawyer mini is about 2.5 inches long and 1 inch around 20:19 < fenn> diameter 20:19 < fenn> .wa diameter of a sawyer water filter 20:19 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result! 20:20 < fenn> useless! 20:20 -!- strangewarp_ is now known as strangewarp 20:20 < fenn> .wa diameter of dialysis tubing 20:20 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, no result! 20:20 < fenn> .wa zero 20:20 < yoleaux> 0: Number name: zero; Number line: http://is.gd/rDUeWu; Binary form: 0₂; Residues modulo small integers: m: 2: 3: 4: 5: 6: 7: 8: 9; 0 mod m: 0: 0: 0: 0: 0: 0: 0: 0; Compass direction: 0° corresponds to north 20:20 < xentrac> .wa diameter of fenn 20:20 < yoleaux> xentrac: Sorry, no result! 20:20 < fenn> binary zero is different from regular zero? 20:21 < xentrac> nope 20:21 < kanzure> 0 base 2, i assume 20:22 < fenn> kanzure: i think MCS is more related to migraine triggers than the immune system, but who kows 20:23 < kanzure> mcs? 20:23 < fenn> Multiple chemical sensitivity is a chronic medical condition characterized by symptoms that the affected person attributes to low-level chemical exposure. Commonly accused substances include smoke, pesticides, plastics, synthetic fabrics, scented products, petroleum products, and paint fumes. Symptoms are often vague and non-specific, such as nausea, fatigue, dizziness and headaches, but also 20:23 < fenn> commonly include inflammation of skin, joints, gastrointestinal tract and airways 20:23 < kanzure> gah, acronyms 20:23 < fenn> namespaces, acronyms, semantics, what's left? 20:24 < kanzure> people. they must be deleted. 20:25 < fenn> i would like a fully denotated language, but Resource Description Framework is hard to read 20:25 < kanzure> i know what multiple chemical sensitivity is, but not that you meant it when you said mcs 20:25 < kanzure> my contextulization gland hasn't been ultrasonically fondled today 20:26 < fenn> it was for the benefit of our lurkers 20:27 * fenn gestures grandly at the darkness 20:29 -!- Guest77675 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:29 < fenn> this certainly sounds like an immune reaction though: "runny nose, itchy eyes, headache, scratchy throat, ear ache, scalp pain, mental confusion or sleepiness, palpitations of the heart, upset stomach, nausea and/or diarrhea, abdominal cramping, aching joints" 20:30 < cluckj> definitely something going on there 20:30 -!- Guest77675 [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:30 < kanzure> i dunno about "mental confusion" as an immune symptom 20:31 < cluckj> I dunno, I get pretty wacky during allergy season if I don't take anti-histamines 20:31 < fenn> or even if you do 20:32 < fenn> histamine is pretty similar to serotonin 20:32 < kanzure> a pill to solve confusion would be nice 20:32 < fenn> it's called modafinil? 20:33 < kanzure> i was being cheeky, i mean the more general type of confusion where ideas don't make sense because the ideas are stupid/bad 20:33 < delinquentme> what was with the pill claimed to allow adults to learn at kid-level plasticity? 20:33 < cluckj> pretty similar like...how? 20:33 < kanzure> the way to get rid of bad ideas isn't to take a pill, it's to stop talking to morons 20:33 < fenn> iirc one of the problems with amphetamine use by fighter pilots is they have poor judgement, snap to quick decisions inappropriately 20:33 < kanzure> what dosages do fighter pilots take 20:34 < kanzure> "nother study of fighter pilots showed that modafinil given in three divided 100 mg doses sustained the flight control accuracy of sleep-deprived F-117 pilots to within about 27 percent of baseline levels for 37 hours, without any considerable side effects.[78] In an 88-hour sleep loss study of simulated military grounds operations, 400 mg/day doses were mildly helpful at maintaining alertness and performance of subjects compared to placebo, ... 20:34 < kanzure> ... but the researchers concluded that this dose was not high enough to compensate for most of the effects of complete sleep loss.[79]" 20:34 < fenn> cluckj: serotonin is histamine glommed onto the side of a phenol 20:34 < ParahSailin> i think a lot of that is innate personality traits of people selected to be pilots 20:35 < kanzure> "have regularly been given amphetamines to fly longer hours. ... they are given Dexedrine in 10 mg doses," air force spokeswoman" 20:35 < kanzure> that's a pretty low dose, but i think most fighter jet pilots are pretty tiny anyway? 20:35 < fenn> oh it has another nitrogen, hm. whatever 20:35 < cluckj> :P 20:36 < ParahSailin> tryptophan is the one you are thinking of 20:36 < fenn> we were talking about histamine 20:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-48-169-26.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:37 < cluckj> tryptophan is more similar to serotonin 20:37 < fenn> Histamine is released as a neurotransmitter. The cell bodies of histamine neurons are found in the posterior hypothalamus, in the tuberomammillary nuclei. From here, these neurons project throughout the brain, including to the cortex, through the medial forebrain bundle. Histamine neurons increase wakefulness and prevent sleep. 20:37 -!- Guest77675 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:37 -!- Guest77675 [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:37 < kanzure> tuberomammillary, you can't make these up (oh wait) 20:37 < fenn> don't get me started 20:38 < fenn> you'd think they would make an antihistamine that can't cross the blood brain barrier 20:38 < cluckj> oh serotonin is derived from tryptophan 20:39 < cluckj> neat 20:40 < fenn> print out a bunch of bio molecule structures and you start to see how they fit into a few families 20:41 < fenn> it would be cool to have a set of coffee mugs with the structure on one side and the name on the other, or in thermochromic ink maybe 20:41 < fenn> one mug per molecule 20:41 < kanzure> thinking of taking up a new habit? 20:41 < kanzure> a very elaborate habit 20:42 < fenn> making champagne pyramids that accurately represent metabolism? 20:42 < fenn> i don't tolerate caffeine very well 20:42 < cluckj> lol 20:45 < fenn> interesting how many antipsychotic drugs are in the "list of antihistamines" 20:47 < fenn> H3-antagonists have a stimulant and nootropic effect, and are being investigated for the treatment of conditions such as ADHD, Alzheimer's disease, and schizophrenia, whereas H4-antagonists appear to have an immunomodulatory role and are being investigated as anti-inflammatory and analgesic drugs. 20:48 < cluckj> sweet 20:49 < kanzure> fenn, approximately how annoying is it to build ultrasound transducer phased array parabolic reflector stuff 20:50 < fenn> i think you just get a disk of piezo material, laminate it on a piece of metal, and cut it into squares 20:50 < fenn> phased array and parabolic reflectors are completely different 20:51 < fenn> the tricky part is the electronics, since a lot of piezo materials need high voltage and precise timing to function 20:51 < cluckj> are you trying to melt someone's brain at a distance? 20:51 < fenn> yes 20:51 < kanzure> for some value of 'melt' 20:51 < gradstudentbot> I think I just cured cancer. Wow. 20:51 < fenn> in the buttery goodness sense of melt 20:52 < kanzure> <3 that bot 20:52 < ParahSailin> and then you put the freedom virus in? 20:52 < cluckj> same 20:52 < fenn> ParahSailin: is the freedom virus a real thing (ostensibly) or is it just a rhetorical device? 20:52 < cluckj> low values of melt, or high values of melt? 20:53 < kanzure> cluckj: low values of melt is just stimulation 20:53 < kanzure> cluckj: like reaching into a brain and flipping some neurons on 20:53 < cluckj> oh, so pretty low :) 20:53 < kanzure> high values of melt is brain damage and tumor excision 20:54 < fenn> there seems to be some idea to infect their computers with circumvention technologies 20:54 < kanzure> i think he wants a biological virus 20:54 < fenn> "i wasn't downloading porn, it was the freedom virus!" 20:56 < gradstudentbot> I'll need to pull an all-nighter. 20:56 < ParahSailin> http://www.state.gov/j/drl/p/224863.htm 20:57 < kanzure> .title 20:57 < yoleaux> Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor Request for Proposals: Programs for North Korea 20:58 < fenn> ParahSailin: i don't see anything unusual on that page 20:58 < kanzure> source of money 20:58 < kanzure> i guess? 20:58 < fenn> should i submit a proposal to write the Freedom Computer Virus? 20:59 < ParahSailin> well the idea was to make a biological virus 20:59 < fenn> i just dont get how that would work 20:59 < ParahSailin> it works by tricking the state dept into financing a shopping spree 21:00 < fenn> but they already do that 21:00 < cluckj> the virus acts on the sympathetic nervous system and makes you crave apple pie and baseball 21:00 < fenn> their people are starving because all the money goes to basketball souveniers or something 21:00 < kanzure> well now they can be free and starving 21:00 < kanzure> 'merica 21:02 < fenn> why can't we have a cool hermit kingdom that just pirates everything from the West 21:03 < fenn> i guess that's russia, nevermind 21:05 < cluckj> hah 21:07 < kanzure> john griessen was interested in building the equipment but he wanted like $100k and i snored off 21:07 < fenn> okay well a phased array is just an array of transducers 21:07 < fenn> so buy some transducers and wire them up 21:08 < fenn> they just need to be the right frequency range 21:08 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/Image-guided%20256-element%20phased%20array%20focused%20ultrasound%20surgery%20-%202008.pdf 21:08 < fenn> since it's "only" in the megahertz you don't need to worry so much aboutu wiring 21:09 < kanzure> hrm which paper had the schematic 21:09 < fenn> spherical is more complicated and i dont really see the point 21:09 < fenn> keep the complexity in math and software 21:11 < fenn> i think the pentium computer was designed to run phased array radar, so that's the amount of horsepower you're talking about 21:12 < kanzure> this seems to indicate the reason for spherical arrays is for "electronic focusing and beam steering in a wider range of 3d volume" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/High-intensity%20focused%20ultrasound%20with%20large%20scale%20spherical%20phased%20array%20for%20the%20ablation%20of%20deep%20tumors%20-%202009.pdf 21:13 < fenn> maybe it has less diffraction because you're dealing with a roughly spherical skull 21:18 < kanzure> hah their skin-fat-vein model http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/A%20portable%20high-intensity%20focused%20ultrasound%20device%20for%20noninvasive%20venous%20ablation%20-%202009.pdf 21:18 < kanzure> figure 4 21:19 < kanzure> "we made stuff vibrate" 21:21 < kanzure> aha here's the one with schematics of anything, page 551 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/Driving%20circuitry%20for%20focused%20ultrasound%20noninvasive%20surgery%20and%20drug%20delivery%20applications%20-%20Hynynen%20-%202011.pdf 21:22 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-peotnkhylkxvylxr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 21:23 < delinquentme> kanzure, you said you liked schoolbus? Feels like a piece of crap 21:24 < delinquentme> also phantomjs is crap w async 21:24 < fenn> "Phased array optics is a technology that will produce three dimensional views of objects and scenery using only two dimensional displays. Display systems based on this technology-- optical phased arrays --will behave quite literally as windows onto whatever scenery we can imagine." 21:24 < delinquentme> It seems totally illogical to make a web automation tool which doesn't work with async at a very simple level 21:24 < kanzure> i don't think i've actually used schoolbus 21:24 < kanzure> phantomjs is just a javascript wrapper around webkit 21:24 < kanzure> like this is a python wrapper around webkitgtk+ https://gist.github.com/kanzure/6581415 21:25 < delinquentme> yeah its been two years since its been updated 21:25 < kanzure> because phantomjs is using qtwebkit from an old release of qt which is also using an old release of webkit 21:25 < kanzure> instead you can just skip all that stuff and go straight to the source (webkit) 21:25 < kanzure> (or blink, if you want) 21:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:28 < fenn> woah. "The sources in a phased array must radiate coherently. That is, they must be able to interfere with each other. The easiest way to achieve this is to illuminate the back of the array with light from a single laser." then you can simply use an LCD as a phase modulator 21:28 < fenn> wait really? 21:29 < fenn> kanzure that's another thing to consider for your melt-o-tron, just using a single ultrasound source and an array of phase modulators 21:29 < kanzure> i enjoy how easy this is to test (at least hypothetically?)- just slabs of meat that you point things at 21:30 < fenn> please don't kill yourself 21:30 < kanzure> i mean meat that isn't me 21:30 < fenn> or other humans 21:30 < delinquentme> giving this a try https://github.com/scrapy/scrapy 21:30 < gradstudentbot> Oh man, that's a great scrabble word. I got to write that down. 21:31 < fenn> i used to talk to a guy in #emc working on a high voltage piezo generator for paint spray bots. basically it was an ultrasonic flute (helmholtz resonator) that was aimed at the PZT disk. he could set things on fire from across the shop with ultrasonic energy from a 20 psi air stream 21:32 < kanzure> your friends are wizards 21:32 < fenn> that guy was definitely a wizard 21:34 < cluckj> that's awesome 21:34 < fenn> his big claim to fame was designing the anti-fog mirror heaters on the BMW 21:35 < fenn> i can't recall ever wanting heated mirrors 21:35 < kanzure> fire summoning is better 21:35 < cluckj> yeah it is 21:36 < fenn> anyway, ultrasound propagates in unexpected ways 21:39 < fenn> http://web.archive.org/web/20021024093113/http://www.alltel.net/~leswatts/shop.html 21:43 < kanzure> wasn't there something about using an LCD as a phase modulator for photolithography reasons 21:43 < kanzure> something about gene_hacker 21:44 < fenn> kanzure: now that i think about it, les watts is pretty much just an older version of les filip 21:45 < kanzure> "gasp! people are similar?" 21:46 < kanzure> makes sense, you probably collapse into the same personality type if you spend enough time around that much concrete 21:46 < fenn> i guess once you have a cnc router you have to make furniture 21:47 < kanzure> otherwise a mob comes after you, an angry mob 21:47 < fenn> the CNC protection agency 21:47 < kanzure> hrm well. i should probably build this. 21:48 < fenn> oddly the query "acoustic phase modulator" doesn't return what i want 21:50 < fenn> it's probably easier to just use an array of piezo emitters 21:51 < kanzure> "This thesis presents an acoustic phased array system utilizing piezoelectric transducers. The system is capable of operating at arbitrary frequencies into the low megahertz range, with a trade-off between phase accuracy and operational frequency. A maximum of sixteen elements can be introduced to the array and all elements are capable of operating at arbitrary phases relative to each other. Waveform generation is done in MATLAB and LabVIEW ... 21:51 < kanzure> ... is used to interface between a host PC issuing commands and the array itself. Results from tests run using a four element array to demonstrate beam steering and focusing at 11 kHz are included and discussed." 21:51 < kanzure> haha matlab/labview 21:51 < kanzure> wonderful 21:51 < fenn> i was thinking something like a liquid crystal that changed its index of refraction or polarity or something (but sound isn't polarized so meh) 21:52 < fenn> acoustic waves traveling in solids and gels can have a directional component 21:54 < fenn> when was that thesis written 21:55 < Viper168> is paperbot working? dunno how to use it, want to get http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8555378 21:55 < fenn> woah i just realized that you could aim battle lasers with liquid crystal phase modulators 21:55 < kanzure> thesis was written in 1820 21:55 < kanzure> what counts as a battle laser 21:55 < kanzure> Viper168: that page does not have a pdf 21:55 < Viper168> ah boo 21:55 < fenn> if it has spiky evil fins it's a battle laser 21:56 < jrayhawk> paperbot: http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/0006-3223(94)00378-5/pdf 21:56 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 51, in _go) 21:56 < jrayhawk> exciting 21:56 < kanzure> hrmph 21:58 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:01 < fenn> .title http://www.hafniumisomer.org/cqeseg3.htm well this is interesting 22:01 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. 22:01 < fenn> come on yoleaux 22:01 < fenn> .title 22:01 < yoleaux> Gamma-ray laser 22:01 < fenn> bah 22:01 < kanzure> what 22:02 < fenn> tldr theoretically you can cause nuclear decays to happen non-randomly by shooting stuff with a gamma ray laser 22:03 < fenn> this has implications for spacecraft and power generation of all sorts 22:03 < fenn> and nuclear hand grenades 22:08 < fenn> see, gamma ray lasers don't work because we don't really have mirrors that can reflect gamma rays. also they self destruct instantly 22:08 < fenn> but a phase modulator could point the laser where you want it to go 22:09 < fenn> "spatial light modulator" is the magic keyword 22:14 < fenn> i wonder if this is any different from a digital hologram 22:15 < kanzure> p. sure we've talked about spatial light modulators before, hang on a sec while i cross reference it against the version of the web in my head 22:15 < fenn> a DLP chip is also called a spatial light modulator, but it wouldn't do phase modulation 22:16 < fenn> also it's digital and you'd want analog 22:16 < fenn> so the thing i want modulates both spatial and phase 22:17 < kanzure> 21:08 < gene_hacker> also have you looked into building a maskless microstereolithography machine? 22:17 < fenn> fortunately that thing happens to be exactly what's in every computer monitor 22:17 < kanzure> 21:09 < gene_hacker> or DLP projector hooked up to a microscope, pointing at a vat of photopolymer 22:17 < kanzure> 21:21 < gene_hacker> what can go wrong? 22:17 < kanzure> hrmm where is it. 22:17 < fenn> where is what 22:18 < kanzure> 22:28 < nmz787> http://nathanmccorkle.com/pdf/A%20maskless%20photolithographic%20prototyping%20system%20using%20a%20low-cost%20consumer%20projector%20and%20a%20microscope.pdf 22:18 < kanzure> well, i remember genehacker or nmz787 was ranting about using an LCD as a phase modulator in here 22:18 < fenn> oh, yeah basically a micro 3d printer 22:18 < kanzure> and since genehacker and nmz787 are basically the same person in my head, it is making my search harder 22:18 < fenn> LCD != DLP 22:18 < kanzure> yes but he gave a link once to an LCD setup 22:18 < fenn> also 404 nmz787 22:18 < kanzure> huh? 22:19 < cpopell`sleep> http://www.miicraft.com/ is DLP I believe 22:19 < fenn> lol Book URL: http://adl.serveftp.org-/papers./A%20maskless%20photolithographic%20prototyping%20system%20using%20a%20low-cost%20consumer%20projector%20and%20a%20microscope.pdf 22:20 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Generation%20of%20laser-induced%20cavitation%20bubbles%20with%20a%20digital%20hologram%20-%20LCD%20-%20spatial%20light%20modulator.pdf 22:20 < kanzure> which book has that url 22:20 < kanzure> and it's over here now: 22:20 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/A%20maskless%20photolithographic%20prototyping%20system%20using%20a%20low-cost%20consumer%20projector%20and%20a%20microscope.pdf 22:21 < fenn> you also have "Versatile stepper based maskless microlithography using a liquid crystal display for direct write of binary and multilevel microstructures" but i'm too lazy to escape code it 22:21 < kanzure> this is the one i remember genehacker ranting about ("direct write" + "LCD") 22:21 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Versatile%20stepper%20based%20maskless%20microlithography%20using%20a%20liquid%20crystal%20display%20(LCD)%20for%20direct%20write%20of%20binary%20and%20multilevel%20microstructures%20-%202007%20-%20awesome.pdf 22:21 < kanzure> i see that you're back on my wavelength 22:22 < fenn> i'm going to start viciously substituting underscores for spaces 22:22 < fenn> rawr 22:23 < kanzure> i_can_keep_this_up_all_day 22:23 < kanzure> oh damn wrong direction 22:23 < fenn> for filenames i mean 22:23 < kanzure> i like how the diagram has the word "computer" pointing at the monitor 22:24 < kanzure> i don't think that system is particularly portable 22:24 < fenn> journal of clever cheap hacks 22:25 < gradstudentbot> I did so much qPCR today. 22:27 < fenn> seems like a flashbulb would be better than using a lamp and a shutter and a lcd 22:29 < fenn> i'm pretty sure the fancy pants scientific catalog "liquid crystal spatial light modulator" is just a LCD panel with the polarizers removed 22:30 < fenn> also how come they dont use this in fabs to do prototype runs? 22:33 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-197-103-231.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:33 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-196-169-241.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:37 < fenn> there was something called a "scanner" where a linear array of lasers is moved across a substrate, changing the bit pattern as it goes... this solves half of the alignment problem (you can get very long continuous images) 22:37 < fenn> or s/laser/LCD/ 22:38 < fenn> with a tilted anamorphic prism you might be able to simulate a wide linear array with a square LCD panel 22:45 < fenn> with a 640x480 panel, you have 307200 pixels; it seems such a shame to throw away 99.8% of them 22:47 < fenn> there's gotta be some way to make a 307200xInfinite image 22:48 < kanzure> how did we get to LCDs? 22:49 < fenn> phase modulation array 22:49 < fenn> i got excited about the possibility of true 3D displays 22:50 < fenn> reading this http://www.phased-array.com/1996-Book-Chapter.html 22:50 < kanzure> what a convenient domain 22:50 < kanzure> don't we know brian wowk from somewhere else 22:50 < kanzure> via: michael anissimov 22:51 < fenn> brian g. wowk a medical physicist and cryobiologist known for the discovery and development of synthetic molecules that mimic the activity of natural antifreeze proteins in cryopreservation applications 22:51 < kanzure> "Mike Darwin & Brian Wowk: Cryonics: Reaching For Tomorrow" 22:51 < gradstudentbot> That's definitely a Cell paper. 22:52 < fenn> how do i give gradstudentbot a botsnack 22:52 < gradstudentbot> Don't phage me, bro. 22:52 < kanzure> not implemented 22:53 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:54 < fenn> "If the person who was “duplicated” believed before duplication that duplication constitutes survival of the self, then, by definition, the duplicated entity will insist vociferously that indeed they did survive.  This has ethical implications." 22:55 < fenn> "Conversely, 22:55 < fenn> an entity derived from a person who did not believe in this form of survival might be quite unhappy to be told that they were the product of a destructive scan of somebody.  This too has ethical implications." 22:55 < kanzure> who cares, their concept of selfhood is probably broken or wrong 22:55 < kanzure> (ethics be damned) 22:56 < fenn> that's basically what he was saying in the rest of the article 22:57 < fenn> i think it's generally poor form to torture sentient constructs 22:57 < kanzure> because non-sentient torture is totally cool? 22:58 < fenn> i can't square this unambiguously with my belief in the freedom of thought (i.e. you should be allowed to think up an imaginary entity and torture them if you wish) 22:58 < fenn> iain banks really missed the ball on this when writing "surface detail" 22:59 < kanzure> by "think up" do you mean "make" or do you mean "an extremely lossy rendering in my head that only functions when i mentally run it in my head" 23:00 < fenn> if "head" is a planet sized chunk of computronium, i don't really see the difference 23:00 < kanzure> yawn last link is better 23:01 < gradstudentbot> So, people always joke about that, but I feel like weaving baskets underwater would not be the easiest thing in the world. 23:04 < fenn> so the problem with 3d displays is you have the usual spatial/temporal/angular resolution tradeoff 23:05 < fenn> a 2d display will generally be N times cheaper/higher resolution than a 3d display, where N is the ratio of depth to screen diagonal 23:07 < fenn> this is pretty clear when you understand how a plenoptic camera works 23:07 -!- rak[rock-gym] is now known as rak[1] 23:07 < fenn> the thing is, we don't really use the temporal resolution of our displays very well 23:08 < fenn> if something is showing a static image, it doesn't need to be updating constantly 23:09 < fenn> so maybe it's possible to rapidly update the phase angle of the laser that's illuminating your spatial phase modulator, and multiplex some extra spatial/angular resolution in there 23:10 < fenn> old-school interlacing is the same idea, trading temporal for spatial resolution 23:10 < fenn> i'm going to read this in the future and have no idea what i was saying 23:12 < fenn> oh i forgot bitdepth.. spatial/temporal/angular/intensity (and probably also polarization and spectral, but humans cant see those) 23:13 < fenn> so my e-ink display has high resolution grayscale mostly-static-image, but i can hack it to do 15fps black and white video 23:36 < fenn> "consider a building covered on all sides by a high power phased array. By day it could produce an image of a landscape contiguous with its surroundings, thereby rendering itself effectively invisible." 23:38 < fenn> "Matching the phase of sources in a phased array has interesting consequences. The sources will interfere constructively, depositing their entire output energy to a very small point (not a very healthy place to be)" 23:38 < fenn> "Our camouflage, decorative lighting system is now a long-range missile defense system, or directional transmitter of interstellar range." 23:43 < fenn> you could do something similar with a plenoptic aremac/camera pair (and a prism/splitter to cram everything into the same light path) then you can route light field representations around electronically 23:46 < fenn> for a camouflage suit you want high bit depth and angular resolution; spatial resolution doesn't matter so much because ideally you wouldn't be standing close to them. so basically you're shifting the optic focusing plane to the fourier angle plane (this is how jellyfish see) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_spectrum_method 23:47 < fenn> i think the angle is the imaginary component 23:51 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:53 < JayDugger> Building phased array optics, fenn? 23:53 < JayDugger> That sounds like quote from Josh Hall, or perhaps Wil McCarthy. 23:55 < fenn> maybe there's a way to stack up LCD panels to get more total information out of a volume 23:58 < fenn> the bottom panel could simulate any arbitrary light source 23:58 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:59 < fenn> and the top panel could simulate any arbitrary transmittance --- Log closed Sun Apr 27 00:00:16 2014