--- Log opened Sun Apr 27 00:00:16 2014
--- Day changed Sun Apr 27 2014
00:00 < fenn> with a plenoptic lens array between them
00:00 < fenn> the number of lenses defines the angular resolution
00:01 < fenn> (this particular solution has nothing to do with phased arrays)
00:02 < superkuh> paperbot: http://journals.aps.org/prl/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.112.164802
00:02 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/936bd8c1a8e542ad1d18c8853ba1a37.pdf
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00:09 < fenn> fun physics demo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arago_spot
00:11 < fenn> "Recently, the Arago spot experiment has been demonstrated with a supersonic expansion beam of deuterium molecules, so-called neutral matter waves."
00:13 < fenn> easier to understand than the double slit experiment at least
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00:24 < fenn> xentrac: this is sort of the inverse of your microphone idea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_field_synthesis
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00:39 < AshleyWaffle> music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iySE-ymD7UA
00:40 < fenn> AshleyWaffle: thank you
00:40 < AshleyWaffle> fenn: uh huh
00:40 < AshleyWaffle> music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ryg68WWIA4
00:40 < AshleyWaffle> fenn: want my lastfm library?
00:40 < fenn> no
00:40 < AshleyWaffle> ok
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00:42 < gradstudentbot> Hey, I got 100% yield! Oh wait, no.
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01:08 < fenn> so, tunable perovskite laser diodes, that would be neat
01:10 < fenn> apparently henry snaith has demonstrated lasing in lead (III)  iodide-chloride
01:12 < fenn> methylammonium lead iodide with some iodides substituted with chlorine
01:12 < fenn> http://phys.org/news/2014-03-revolutionary-solar-cells-lasers.html
01:13 < fenn> the cool thing about perovskites is they are easy to make with simple lab equipment like spin coaters and heaters
01:15 < fenn> i wonder if they scintillate
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01:46 < fenn> in death valley there is a sand dune that makes a noise when you disturb the piled up sand grains, and the noise disturbs the sand grains and make more noise, and it reverberates around for hundreds of meters through the dune. after a little while of this you get the impression that you can actually see what the structure of the dune is, underneath all that sand, sort of a glowing echo chamber of
01:46 < fenn> light
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02:09 < fenn> who here's heard of "Lutetium", element 71?
02:09 < fenn> damn time portals
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02:18 < xmj> fenn: always makes me think of Asterix.
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02:22 < mosasaur> Somewhere, deep inside a Kruel blog, is a Baez link where Eli is debunked by their own hero Egan.
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02:58 < AshleyWaffle> http://www.okcupid.com/profile/AshleyWaffle
02:58 < AshleyWaffle> meep
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06:21 < archels> hm, what was that website that let you create an online profile/avatar which would "live on" after your death?
06:22 < archels> I remember seeing this in science fiction, but I think someone actually built this at one point
06:23 < gradstudentbot> I think my PI hates me.
06:52 < xmj> gradstudentbot: 3.14
06:52 < gradstudentbot> Does this look contaminated to you?
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07:21 < kanzure> archels: there's been a few of those and they were all bad
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07:33 < FourFire> so Fenn, you've got a recent copy of wikipedia?
07:39 < FourFire> archels, yeah I've heard of it, can't recall the name
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08:20 < eudoxia> it was a .me domain and i'm fairly certain it was on HN
08:20 < eudoxia> you know when you want to google something but can't quite remember any keywords?
08:20 < kanzure> it wasn't just that one
08:22 < eudoxia> kanzure: i didn't know of any others
08:22 < kanzure> it had inurl:cyber
08:22 < eudoxia> well of course it did
08:23 < eudoxia> .g inurl:cyber inurl:me
08:23 < yoleaux> http://thoughtcatalog.com/anonymous/2014/02/i-was-cyber-stalked-by-the-woman-my-boyfriend-cheated-on-me-with/
08:25 < kanzure> ughhh
08:25 < kanzure> http://www.cyberev.org/default.aspx
08:25 < kanzure> i hate the world
08:26 < kanzure> "Martine Rothblatt: Cofounder and Treasurer of Terasem Movement, Inc. and original creator of CyBeRev"
08:26 < kanzure> .w martine rothblatt
08:26 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'martine rothblatt'.
08:26 < kanzure> .wiki martine rothblatt
08:26 < eudoxia> ohh i very vaguely remember this
08:26 < gradstudentbot> Are there any of those hamster ovaries left?
08:27 < eudoxia> oh god they even have the "laugh at you" quote
08:27 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martine_Rothblatt "She left Geostar in 1990 to create both WorldSpace and Sirius Satellite Radio. She left Sirius in 1992 and WorldSpace in 1997 to become the full-time Chairman and CEO of United Therapeutics Corporation."
08:27 < kanzure> "Rothblatt is responsible for launching several communications satellite companies, including the first nationwide vehicle location system (Geostar, 1983), the first private international spacecom project (PanAmSat, 1984), the first global satellite radio network (WorldSpace, 1990), and the first non-geostationary satellite-to-car broadcasting system (Sirius Satellite Radio, 1990). As an attorney-entrepreneur, Rothblatt was also responsible ...
08:27 < kanzure> ... for leading the efforts to obtain worldwide approval, via new international treaties, of satellite orbit/spectrum allocations for space-based navigation services (1987) and for direct-to-person satellite radio transmissions (1992)."
08:30 < archels> ahh yes Terasem
08:30 < kanzure> why would the neuroscientist be interested in terasem /me ponders
08:30 < archels> https://www.lifenaut.com
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08:31 < eudoxia> http://www.cyberev.org/SpaceCast.aspx
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08:31 < eudoxia> oh my god the talking thing
08:31 < archels> kanzure: I wanted to use it as a reference in my paper on mind uploading
08:32 < kanzure> whaaat
08:33 < eudoxia> yeah, i thought the strategy was "pretend they don't exist and deny any connections"
08:33 < archels> this might be the better option
08:34 < kanzure> i highly recommend reading this: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf
08:34 < kanzure> and figuring out what happened to eleitl's gangbangers: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/
08:35 < archels> it was meant as an example of how new technologies allow people to express their death anxiety in a novel way
08:35 < archels> the WBE roadmap is showing its age a little
08:35 < eudoxia> kanzure: was there ever a follow-up to the WBE roadmap?
08:35 < eudoxia> 2008 was, like, uh, 6 years ago
08:36 < archels> according to Sandberg, not really (I asked)
08:36 < kanzure> the follow-up is whatever todd huffman is doing at 3scan
08:37 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hplus-summit-2009/todd-huffman/
08:37 < kanzure> http://3scan.com/
08:39 < archels> that's just one piece of the puzzle though
08:39 < archels> (the bottleneck? who knows)
08:39 < kanzure> what is your opinion of all the neuron models in modeldb?
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08:42 < archels> some of them are pretty good, such as some from Yiota Poirazi
08:42 < archels> plasticity and learning is underrepresented, though
08:43 < kanzure> what's over-represented?
08:43 < archels> oh, there's also PSICS
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08:43 < archels> run-of-the-mill models that explain one thing and not anything else are overrepresented
08:44 < kanzure> isn't it the job of models to do integration stuff
08:44 < archels> (this goes under the heading 'a computational neuroscientist's lament')
08:44 < archels> that rarely ends up happening
08:45 < archels> organizations like the INCF are pushing for more integrative work
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08:45 < archels> I think they have a GSoC on converting a range of models to a lingua franca, PyNN or so
08:46 < archels> then of course there's the HBP, whose specic stated aim is to build a vastly integrated computer simulation
09:08 < kanzure> hahah "Have you done any research on this? computingforgood.com has done this for months (for Ripple) but is shutting down the project this month due to people constantly gaming the system in unpredictable ways."
09:08 < kanzure> duh
09:11 < kanzure> 19:08 < cpopell`sleep> learning successes: my python script now successfully parses 'mmkPa' as millimeter kiloPascal
09:11 < kanzure> argh why does nobody fucking listen
09:12 < xentrac> are you asking how pepole choose to direct their attention?
09:12 < xentrac> or s/choose to //
09:12 < kanzure> no, i'm asking why cpopell`sleep ignored all of the good suggestions he was given
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09:12 < kanzure> (in here)
09:12 < kanzure> what's the point of talking to people if you're just going to ignore them
09:14 < xentrac> usually I don't fucking listen because I'm doing something else
09:14 < xentrac> such as sleeping
09:15 < kanzure> yes, well, he was asking for advice on his source code, and then advice was provided with really good arguments about why gnu units is useful
09:16 < kanzure> also, i'm not very sure what sleep is or why i can only partially hear stuff when i am sleeping
09:16 < xentrac> gnu units is not capable for parsing 'mmkPa'
09:17 < kanzure> that doesn't mean the code should be thrown out
09:17 < kanzure> and also, you could possibly just do a grammar translation layer on top of your input
09:17 < kanzure> to force it into coherent formatting
09:20 < xentrac> that sounds like what cpopell's code has achieved so far
09:20 < kanzure> if you say so https://github.com/cpopell/jeweler/blob/master/prefix.py
09:25 < kanzure> "Ultrasound generator/speaker systems are sold as electronic pest control devices, which are claimed to frighten away rodents and insects, but there is no scientific evidence that the devices work.[16][17][18]" that is a funny unsubstantiated claim to make
09:26 < chris_99> what's that from
09:27 < kanzure> just glancing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound to see if i missed anything
09:28 < chris_99> ah
09:30 < kanzure> didn't know this one, "A formerly popular consumer application of ultrasound was in television remote controls for adjusting volume and changing channels. Introduced by Zenith in the late 1950s, the system used a hand-held remote control containing short rod resonators struck by small hammers, and a microphone on the set. Filters and detectors discriminated between the various operations. The principal advantages were that no battery was ...
09:30 < kanzure> ... needed in the hand-held control box, and unlike radio waves, the ultrasound was unlikely to affect neighboring sets. Ultrasound remained in use until displaced by infrared systems starting in the late 1980s.[43]"
09:30 < kanzure> is zenith even around anymore
09:31 < xentrac> not as a company
09:32 < xentrac> it's part of LG
09:40 < kanzure> paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa/journal/jasa/94/4/10.1121/1.407516
09:40 < kanzure> .title
09:40 < yoleaux> The laser‐generated ultrasonic phased array: Analysis and experiments
09:41 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20lasergenerated%20ultrasonic%20phased%20array%3A%20Analysis%20and%20experiments.txt
09:41 < kanzure> "Focused ultrasonicwaves have been generated in a solid by irradiating its surface with a multiple beam‐pulsed YAG laser. A set of 16 rectilinear sources is used, equivalent to a phased array of ultrasonic transducers. Longitudinal waves are focused in the sample by introducing an appropriate time delay between each laser pulse. The elastic waves are detected either by a broadband optical heterodyne probe to analyze the wide ultrasonic ...
09:41 < kanzure> ... signal spectrum (0–20 MHz), or by a narrow‐band piezoelectric transducer to achieve the sectorial acoustic beam scanning of the sample."
09:44 < mosasaur> 20 MHz ultrasonic? Is that even possible?
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10:03 < xentrac> mosasaur: yes, you can get over a megahertz even in air; it just doesn't propagate very far
10:04 < xentrac> solids and liquids have their molecules a thousand times closer together, so you should be able to get a thousand times shorter wavelengths
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10:08 < mosasaur> xentrac: Yes, I'm catching up via WP now. I was surprised because sound travels so much slower than light speed. These frequencies are rather common for radio transmissions.
10:12 < kanzure> "Magnetic resonance surgery using heat waves produced with focussed ultrasound"
10:13 < kanzure> oh, the magnetic resonance is for imaging. nevermind.
10:20  * mosasaur wonders if one can generate an em signal by vibrating a permanent magnet
10:34 < kanzure> paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn2009535
10:34 < kanzure> .title
10:34 < yoleaux> Graphene-on-Paper Sound Source Devices
10:42 < paperbot> XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 51, in _go)
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11:02 < kanzure> fenn: here's someone steering an ultrasonic field with an LCD as their spatial light modulator, http://www.loreti.it/download/pdf/aom/teoria/oa_spie_paper.pdf
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11:14 < kanzure> "In principle, such an ultrasound emitting surface can steer the ultrasonic field in any desired way, i.e. the beam can be focused to points, lines, arrays, or pre-calculated three-dimensional pressure distributions in the water tank. Furthermore, the ultrasonic field can be manipulated at video rate by projecting temporally changing LCD images to the surface. The resolution of this optical element is determined by the LCD resolution, i.e. ...
11:14 < kanzure> ... there are 800x600 independently controllable phased elements, which is much higher than in technical applications using phased piezo arrays."
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11:42 < kanzure> oh neat the FDA approved rTMS for the treatment of depression
11:42 < kanzure> quick, everyone become hopeless and boring
11:54 < kanzure> paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1134/S1063771012010083
11:54 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/1270ea227bc1060e1c2aa3fd703f7e37.txt
11:54 < kanzure> argh researchgate.net is down
11:55 < gradstudentbot> Can I borrow some sulphuric acid?
11:56 < ParahSailin> oh, is researchgate actually a good thing, i always run into it when searching and assumed it was a spam site because it never linked to original source
11:57 < kanzure> it is usually a bad thing
11:57 < kanzure> but they host pdfs sometimes
11:57 < FourFire> rTMS
11:57 < kanzure> their headers are fucked up though, so ultimately they are bad
11:57 < FourFire> is that related at all to TransCranialStimulation?
11:58 < kanzure> "We're rolling out some new features! ResearchGate is currently down for maintenance,
11:58 < FourFire> kanzure, I am hopeless and boring
11:58 < kanzure> but we'll be back online very soon. Thank you for your patience."
11:58 < FourFire> gradstudentbot, one does not simply "borrow" acid, of any kind
11:58 < gradstudentbot> Who used the last of the growth medium?
11:58 < kanzure> i was gonna get:
11:58 < kanzure> http://www.researchgate.net/publication/229066647_Gavrilov_L.R._Tsirulnikov_E.M._Focused_ultrasound_as_a_tool_to_input_sensory_information_to_humans_(Review)._Acoustical_Physics_2012_v._58_1_1-21/file/9fcfd4ffe7336713f1.pdf
12:06 < ParahSailin> when its a russian author, always search libgen first
12:06 < ParahSailin> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2F0006-8993%2877%2991030-7
12:08 < kanzure> they sound spiteful
12:09 < gradstudentbot> I think the centrifuge is broken.
12:14 < kanzure> "The neuromodulation produced by MRgHIFU was elicited by focally heating deep-brain nuclei to around 48 degrees celsius for about 10 seconds during transcranial transmission of 0.65 MHz continuous-wave US at intensities <550 W/cm^2 from 1,204 transducers operating in a phased array[45]. In the present report, we describe an approach where lower intensity US (23.87 W/cm^2) transmitted from a single-element 0.5 MHz FUS transducer for 500 ms can ...
12:14 < kanzure> ... be used to transiently modulate brain activity in the cortex of humans."
12:14 < kanzure> 48 celsius?
12:16 < kanzure> uh, 1024 transducers
12:16 < kanzure> not 1204
12:16 < kanzure> weird copypaste artifacts maybe
12:26 < kanzure> ultrasound-induced membrane contraction (21-45% volumetric reduction) observed in live imaging of cells, "this shrinkage was found to be transient, as the sonicated cells had recovered (at a rate of size increase of 0.4%–0.9% per minute) to their pre-exposure size within 30 min after the end of exposure"
12:27 < kanzure> ParahSailin: wrong paper, but close enough
12:28 < kanzure> the first author is rather interesting
12:29 < kanzure> leonid r. gavrilov
12:29 < kanzure> because gavrilov is a name that shows up on the gerontology research group mailing list pretty often
12:29 < kanzure> with his wife natalia
12:29 < kanzure> Leonid Gavrilov <gavrilov@longevity-science.org>
12:30 < kanzure> i think he was in san diego last week
12:30 < kanzure> these are webfacts.
12:31 < ParahSailin> my ezproxy cant get this one
12:32 < kanzure> aww it's a different fucking leonid gavrilov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Gavrilov
12:32 < kanzure> author is leonid r. gavrilov and this is leonid a. gavrilov
12:45 < kanzure> "i was reading an article on openwetware wiki, and in this article there was a link to a recipe to make your own peptone from soy or casein but the links are dead or ask for password, does someone have these documents ? here is the article in question http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ/Methods the link to the documents for making peptone are at the end of the article under "Homebrew Growth Media""
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13:42 < kanzure> the acoustic stimulation of retina stuff is neat.
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13:52 < kanzure> "Piezoelectric and piezooptic effects in porous silicon" http://physics.technion.ac.il/~eribak/VinikmanRibak.pdf
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14:17 < kanzure> .title http://warmplace.ru/soft/ans/
14:17 < yoleaux> WarmPlace.Ru. Virtual ANS Spectral Synthesizer
14:17 < kanzure> "Virtual ANS is a software simulator of the unique Russian synthesizer ANS - photoelectronic microtonal/spectral musical instrument created by Russian engineer Evgeny Murzin from 1938 to 1958. Murzin named his invention in honour of the composer Alexander Nikolayevich Scriabin."
14:17 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANS_synthesizer "The technological basis of his invention was the method of graphical sound recording used in cinematography (developed in Russia concurrently with USA), which made it possible to obtain a visible image of a sound wave, as well as to realize the opposite goal—synthesizing a sound from an artificially drawn sound spectrogram."
14:25 < jrayhawk> http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27156775
14:25 < jrayhawk> .title
14:25 < yoleaux> China: Firm 3D prints 10 full-sized houses in a day
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15:42 < AshleyWaffle> music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhGe-YZkIaw
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16:01 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301562907001081
16:01 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/8061e3fe74ff724033fbaf92ed1e1488.txt
16:02 < kanzure> was "Freehand 3D Ultrasound Reconstruction Algorithms—A Review"
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16:25 < kanzure> huh someone did a phased array speaker on kickstarter a while back http://www.soundlazer.com/?page_id=2947 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/richardhaberkern/soundlazer
16:28 < kanzure> music instrument http://www.airharp.com/
16:38 < kanzure> xentrac: http://web.archive.org/web/20020212111509/http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/silverman96huge.html "The Huge Microphone Array(HMA) is a project that started in February 1994 to design, construct, debug, and test a real-time 512-microphone array system and to develop algorithms for use on it."
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16:52 < fenn> hplusroadmap feels like this sometimes http://captain-kida.tumblr.com/post/80488649265
16:55 < kanzure> which one is spock
16:55 < fenn> irrelevant
16:55 < kanzure> why are sonographs still expensive?
16:55 < kanzure> i mean, sonography machines
16:56 < fenn> because it's "somebody else's money"
16:56 < kanzure> wouldn't it make more sense for people to have a transducer probe next to their toothbrush or something
16:56 < fenn> why does an ambulance ride cost $2000?
16:57 < fenn> "The optional Sigma Studio software and USB programming tools are required" then they aren't really optional are they?
16:59 < fenn> there's got to be a way to make a feedback loop with this soundlaser thing and destroy it from a distance
16:59 < fenn> otherwise it's the end of civilization as we know it
16:59 < kanzure> is there any evidence that this is on the market http://www.samachar.com/british-engineers-develop-ultra-cheap-ultrasound-mjoeMKihbfe.html
17:00 < fenn> i remember seeing the transducer from a medical scanner for sale for like $200
17:01 < kanzure> isn't that still a bit high? the piezos are pretty cheap, like <$5/each iirc
17:01 < fenn> there's really no reason you couldn't attach this to a cellphone
17:01 < kanzure> someone did that, but then it got turned into a company
17:01 < kanzure> and now they don't sell it
17:01 < fenn> the sound ports do mic and speakers right?
17:02 < fenn> hell it could even be bluetooth
17:02 < kanzure> http://ultrasound.engineering.wustl.edu/index.php/Cell_Phone_SDK
17:02 < dingo> http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/d/dingo/dumplog/1392596722.nh343.txt
17:02 < kanzure> http://sourceforge.net/p/mobileus/code/HEAD/tree/
17:02 < dingo> ahh beware the cockatrice
17:02 < dingo> i'll never beat this dumb game
17:03 < kanzure> "FDA Approval: Mobisante receives FDA approval for their smartphone-based ultrasound system; Mobisante, a start-up in Seattle, WA, is commercializing this technology. It is currently under review by the FDA and they hope to sell the first units in 2011"
17:03 < kanzure> and.. you can't even buy it: http://www.mobisante.com/
17:03 < kanzure> fuckers
17:03 < fenn> and there are no images on that page
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17:04 < Lemminkainen> paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6182/413.short
17:04 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1251110
17:04 < Lemminkainen> <3
17:05 < kanzure> "How much does it cost? We have many flexible options. Please contact our Sales Representative for details."
17:05 < kanzure> i'm pretty sure this can be manufactured for <$50/each
17:05 < gradstudentbot> The gel is streaking.
17:05 < kanzure> "Mobisante does not endorse use of its ultrasound products outside of sale and use by, or on the order, of a physician." aha..
17:06 < kanzure> "Data from the device can be downloaded by email or the Export feature. Email is supported through a Wi-Fi network. Exporting data can be done via USB or a network drive."
17:06 < kanzure> why does my sonograph send me email?
17:07 < kanzure> "As an optional feature it is also capable of sending data by telegram."
17:08 < fenn> because people looking inside their own bodies is morally wrong and indefensible
17:08 < Lemminkainen> there are some contexts in which I'd prefer to get data by telegram
17:09 < fenn> maybe they mean by facsimile
17:10 < fenn> i bet they also have to fill out a form every time they use it
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17:11 -!- kanzure changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (3 times) | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki
17:12 < fenn> heh are you keeping track
17:12 <@kanzure> someone has to
17:12 < fenn> i'm sure it's been more than 3 times
17:13 < fenn> the FDA classified the Freedom Virus as a drug!
17:13 <@kanzure> i wonder if the fda has ever butted into what the cdc does
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17:14 <@kanzure> i'm sorry but those life saving biohazard suits aren't approved for humanitarian use
17:14 < fenn> i don't understand what "humanitarian" means
17:14 < gradstudentbot> Where are the hot plates?
17:15 < fenn> "someone devoted to the promotion of human welfare" as opposed to a nihilist?
17:15 <@kanzure> yeah it's curious that they named it humanitarian use anyway
17:15 <@kanzure> surely they recognized how stupid it sounds that they have a category "to appear to be more human"
17:16 < fenn> i think it's in reference to "humanism" (as opposed to religion) but it still sounds kinda weird, like the rest of medicine and government is not in the interest of human welfare?
17:18 <@kanzure> alibaba prices are also a little high
17:19 <@kanzure> but since this is mostly solid state i think a pcb shop could probably be tricked into doing it for less
17:28 <@kanzure> how do these people sleep at night? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Veterinary-Portable-Ultrasound-Scanner-Convex-Probe-USB-/220825063078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336a330ea6
17:28 <@kanzure> from what world is this a viable product
17:28 <@kanzure> "Permanent Image storage: 32 frames"
17:28 <@kanzure> "Scanner depth: 230mm" wtf
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17:31 <@kanzure> that keyboard looks like it was designed by a committee
17:31 <@kanzure> i should go for a world record on that keyboard
17:33 <@kanzure> http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-make-your-own-ultrasound-gel.html
17:33 < ebowden> Oh, neat.
17:33 < yoleaux> 27 Apr 2014 02:54Z <fenn> ebowden: http://orion.bme.columbia.edu/ueil/documents/article/2011-choi-bbb-pulses-microbubbles.pdf
17:34 <@kanzure> jrayhawk: http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-perform-fecal-transplant-why.html
17:35 <@kanzure> http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-learn-bedside-point-of-care.html "When I see a patient now, instead of taking their pulse and placing my stethoscope on their chest and back, hearing the vague taps and clunks and bubbles and whooshes of the internal organs I have come to trust are in there, I open the ultrasound machine that lives in my white coat, squeeze a little gel from a tube I keep warm in my pocket, ...
17:35 <@kanzure> ... and the patient and I look at heart, lungs, liver, spleen, kidneys and bladder. Most of them, those not blind or in a coma, think this is incredibly cool. At the end of this exam, which takes all of 5 minutes if I am thorough, I know whether their heart squeezes normally, whether there is excess fluid in the lungs or pericardial sack, whether there is fluid in the belly, whether the kidneys are blocked and whether the bladder is emptying ...
17:36 <@kanzure> ... normally. Sometimes I also see things like gallstones or tumors or blood clots. I can often evaluate whether the patient is dehydrated by looking at the inferior vena cava, the vein that returns blood from the lower body to the heart."
17:37 < jrayhawk> http://chriskresser.com/all-about-fecal-microbiota-transplants from an actual researcher in the field
17:37 < jrayhawk> the hope is to come up with dirt cheap suppositories and prove them safe
17:37 <@kanzure> i figured you would be amused by this person's instructions
17:38 <@kanzure> oh cool, the fda regulates fecal transplants: http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/05/dear-fda-food-and-drug-administration.html
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17:38 < jrayhawk> haha
17:41 <@kanzure> she paid $8000 for "Vscan, by GE"? geeze http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2014/04/pocket-ultrasound-machines-why-doesnt.html
17:42 <@kanzure> https://vscan.gehealthcare.com/gallery/a-quick-look-at-vscan
17:43 <@kanzure> "The list price for Vscan purchases made within the United States is $7,900USD. For special pricing offers and pricing in other geographies and in local currencies, please contact your local sales representative or Vscan distributor. You will find sales contact information for your geography on the “Contact” page."
17:43 <@kanzure> this person really paid that much? wtf
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17:46 <@kanzure> one hour on a full charge, that's neat https://vscan.gehealthcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Vscan-Datasheet-2012.pdf
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18:03 < jrayhawk> part of the plan with socialized medicine is to make collective bargaining more effective
18:07 < jrayhawk> s/is/was/ i suppose. this country fairly amazing at finding pareto maximums of awfulness between libertarianism and socialism.
18:13 <@kanzure> collective bargaining doesn't seem like the correct problem
18:13 < jrayhawk> it's certainly a subset of other problems
18:13 <@kanzure> who is bargaining with the fda for cheapo at home unlicensed medical imaging
18:14 <@kanzure> s/cheapo//
18:15 < jrayhawk> "cheapo" is not really an option after hopping through regulatory hoops
18:15 <@kanzure> seeking approval for playing high-frequency music is silly
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18:19 <@kanzure> usb ultrasound probe from 2006 that was going to retail for $3700 http://www.mtbeurope.info/news/2006/605035.htm
18:20 < jrayhawk> anyway, there are at least obvious gains to be made with collective bargaining based on what we see with costs in socialized medicine vs. medicare/medicaid/VHA vs. all other U.S. healthcare
18:21 < jrayhawk> it would be a lot *better* if we split up the USDA so it stopped bankrupting the nation with medical expenses, but apparently baby steps are hard enough
18:22 <@kanzure> "The MobiUS costs £7,000 compared to £60,000 for a full-size ultrasound model." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2363964/The-ultrasound-scanner-plugs-SMARTPHONE-revolutionise-medical-care-world-countries.html
18:22 <@kanzure> what a joke.
18:24 <@kanzure> transcranial adventures inc.
18:25 < jrayhawk> he who charges the most can afford the best salesmen, and doctors are forbidden from considering price in treatment and get to pass the buck onto the insurance companies
18:26 <@kanzure> this is really just a few piezos hooked up to a transistor and usb wire
18:27 <@kanzure> the software doesn't even do 3d point cloud construction stuff
18:27 < jrayhawk> Sovaldi is a fun one; their only market pressure is medical tourism.
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19:03 < fenn> so the cool thing about a smartphone ultrasound is it could do 3d reconstruction of the tissue volume, which would drastically reduce the amount of training required to use it, to approximately zero
19:04 < fenn> but i haven't seen this anywhere (that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though)
19:05 < fenn> $3700 is ridiculous
19:11 < fenn> their volume rendering method sucks but it's the right general idea: https://www.imt.liu.se/edu/courses/TBMT02/ultra/m105r1.pdf
19:12 <@kanzure> you should be able to extract a point cloud by waving your magic wand (not that magic wand, cough) over the tissue
19:12 < fenn> also doppler coloring should give you better alignment information
19:12 <@kanzure> and maybe an accelerometer on the wand or something
19:12 < fenn> that's what this is, but "point cloud" doesn't really make sense for tissue since it's just variations in density
19:13 < fenn> you could do segmentation pretty easily with MRI software
19:13 <@kanzure> well consider fetal ultrasound where you end up with surfaces like a face
19:13 < fenn> see figure 10b
19:14 <@kanzure> what is the rotation based on?
19:15 < fenn> mouse click+drag probably
19:15 < fenn> i'd use the phone accelerometer
19:15 < fenn> the probe should have its own accelerometer and gyro
19:15  * kanzure nods
19:16 < fenn> but in a pinch you could tape them together
19:17 < fenn> there are all these cheap ass "augmented reality" apps for android, but none of them do any image processing to align the view with the supposed orientation in space, they just use the compass which is terribly slow and inaccurate
19:18 < fenn> but optic flow is like the second simplest computer vision algorithm next to edge detection
19:19 <@kanzure> why is it called optic flow
19:19 < fenn> something about fruit flies
19:20 <@kanzure> why are these probes/transducer arrays limited between 1-5 MHz in the medical products?
19:20 <@kanzure> are the driver circuits that finnicky
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19:21 <@kanzure> i would expect to be able to drive the same piezo down to 1-20 kHz for music playing
19:21 < fenn> maybe it's resonant
19:22 < fenn> 1 hour battery time is pretty impressive
19:22 < fenn> if it's actually scanning that whole time
19:23 < fenn> the wand should have a button so you can select which organ to render as mostly opaque
19:24 <@kanzure> you should be able to paint a full body picture
19:24 < fenn> of course, but usually there's a lot of stuff in the way of what you're trying to look at
19:24 <@kanzure> and i don't mean boring fetuses
19:26 < fenn> i've always wanted something like this; in addition to transdermal magnesium supplementation and radium therapy, you could use it as an ultrasound imaging tank: http://gray-fox200.deviantart.com/art/The-immortality-experiment-CloseUp-412812505
19:27 <@kanzure> dunno if the tank would work or not, i was thinking something that sprays you with the gel mist, and then a simple xy axis to move a probe
19:27 <@kanzure> tank does offer all three dimensions though
19:28 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003383890570230X
19:28 < fenn> tank can scan rapidly and repeatedly without poking or prodding the user
19:28 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/310441aaf5a7d5fc21ed80a2d64c7ad2.txt
19:29 < fenn> you'd either have planar arrays on top and bottom, or a linear array that sweeps the perimeter of the tank
19:29 < fenn> could use it for neural modulation too, maybe
19:30 <@kanzure> you could do an array across the whole circumference
19:30 < fenn> sure but that's expensive
19:30 <@kanzure> is it?
19:30 < fenn> well, more expensive than a spinny thingy
19:30 <@kanzure> otherwise you'd be waiting forever for your array to spiral around
19:31 < fenn> i dunno, a planar array on top or bottom might be enough
19:31 <@kanzure> like an entire 8 hours or something
19:31 < fenn> people might be uncomfortable if it were on top, then they're "trapped" underwater
19:31 <@kanzure> an entire uninterrupted 8 hours, like of sleep
19:31 < fenn> huh 8 hours? i was thinking like 1 second
19:31 <@kanzure> oh
19:32 < fenn> ding! your wikipedia is ready
19:32 <@kanzure> i'm not sure what the temporal constraints are
19:32 < fenn> speed of sound mostly
19:32 <@kanzure> but also bandwidth?
19:32 < fenn> same thing
19:32 <@kanzure> processing can be offloaded if necessary but you still have to record stuff
19:33 < fenn> oh data bandwidth.. computers are fast dude
19:33 <@kanzure> i dunno how much data this actually produces
19:33 < fenn> look at the size of the voxels on the baby's face
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19:33 < fenn> let's say a voxel is 1mm
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19:33 <@kanzure> well i am assuming resolution is bad because they are idiots
19:34 < fenn> a human body takes up about a cubic meter, so there are 1 billion voxels in a cubic meter
19:34 < fenn> if each voxel intensity has 8 bits thats 1GB of data to render a human body at full resolution with no compression
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19:35 < fenn> saving 1GB to ram should take much less than a second
19:35 < gradstudentbot> I think the centrifuge is broken.
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19:36 < fenn> for viewing and saving and stuff you'd probably use octrees or some other voxel compression algorithm i don't know about
19:36 < fenn> 3d wavelets would probably work fine
19:36 < fenn> basically a 3d jpeg
19:36 < gradstudentbot> Should this be on ice?
19:37 <@kanzure> iirc higher the reslution the lower the tissue depth you can image, but i dunno if this applies to beamsteering stuff
19:37 <@kanzure> *resolution
19:37 < fenn> that makes sense, it's because of scattering of waves
19:37 <@kanzure> is that just a noise problem
19:37 < fenn> no, it's a physics problem
19:38 < fenn> consider a monster truck and a toy car
19:38 < fenn> the toy car will be deflected by tiny pebbles, but a monster truck will roll right over them
19:38 < fenn> this means the toy car can be used to image pebbles, but eventually it will get bounced out
19:39 <@kanzure> welp for those cases maybe there's a capsule-swallowable form factor for a tiny semiconductor array that can do sonography through the digestive tract
19:39 < fenn> there are trans-whatever probes but i haven't seen a wireless swallowable version
19:39 <@kanzure> or perhaps contrast "agents" (wtf) for deep tissue imaging
19:40 < fenn> contrast bubbles just enhance the scattering of the fluid they're suspended in
19:40 < fenn> maybe there are super resolution techniques from microscopy or photolithography or radar that could be applied
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19:41 <@kanzure> what was the reason we don't do full-body ultrasound imaging?
19:41 < fenn> define "we"
19:41 <@kanzure> humans
19:42 <@kanzure> i don't think anyone does it
19:42 < fenn> i'm sure there exist full-body ultrasound scanners
19:43 < fenn> i really dont like this trend among doctors to recommend not doing "unnecessary" tests because you might see something
19:44 < fenn> like, it's not my fucking problem you're too immature to deal with statistically normal differences
19:44 < catern> oh no
19:44 <@kanzure> google results indicate "full body ultrasound" is just people confused about x-ray tomography they just did
19:44 < catern> is that why they aren't doing unnecessary tests any more?
19:44 < gradstudentbot> I lost my pipette.
19:45 < catern> i thought it was because they actually had gotten some sense about cost-benefit
19:45 < catern> i guess that's a more plausible explanation ;_;
19:45 < fenn> "Unfortunately, once an abnormality is found and identified many people are disturbed and insist on having something done about it. As a consequence doctors are obligated to find out exactly what it is which involves more medical procedures, blood work, and biopsies, just to make sure the problematic area is ok.  Before undergoing all of this additional worry and testing, the majority of people
19:45 < fenn> feel absolutely fine."
19:46 < fenn> except for the ones that are OK until they suddenly die
19:46 < fenn> "works for the majority" is not a good rationale for policy-making
19:46 <@kanzure> no evidence of these scans
19:47 <@kanzure> hrm. why doesn't this exist.
19:49 < fenn> The first full-body human ultrasound -- conducted in the turret of a disused B-29 bomber  http://criticalmedia.uwaterloo.ca/courses/necromedia/
19:49 < fenn> why the fuck is this only available from an english literature website
19:52 < fenn> aw come on, this company... http://www.fennent.com/sonar.html
19:52 <@kanzure> i don't see anything about that B-29 turret and ultrasound on the web
19:52 < fenn> .title
19:52 < yoleaux> Sidescan Sonar Images
19:53 < fenn> "Fenn Enterprises"
19:53 < cpopell> :V
19:53 <@kanzure> you went back in time and established that company so that you wouldn't have to do it in 2014
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19:54 < fenn> actually i have been thinking about sonar for fish finding under sea ice
19:55 < fenn> i wonder why we don't see any sensor fusion images, like sonar + radar + lidar
19:55 < fenn> you'd want RGB lidar to get a good image
19:55 <@kanzure> "because data is hard man"
19:55 < fenn> oh noes teh kalman filterz
19:55 <@kanzure> it looks like "full body ultrasound" results are mostly people advertising the fact that they can use an ultrasound machine to wave a wand around
19:56 < fenn> yeah
19:56 <@kanzure> seems like it would exist at least for product testing?
19:56 <@kanzure> i guess you don't care about heat damage in that situation, so you wouldn't do water/encapsulation
19:56 < fenn> so is it illegal to take a crab out of someone else's crab trap?
19:57 < fenn> i mean, nobody owns the bottom of the ocean right?
19:57 < gradstudentbot> My experiment was working a second ago, but now it doesn't even work.
19:58 < fenn> In just one day on one dive boat the diver released 693 live Dungeness crabs from recovered pots.
20:00 < fenn> also looks like there are a lot of logs down there
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20:05 < fenn> i never understood why they don't just use neutral buoyancy cables for deep sea stuff
20:06 < fenn> a supercavitating cable would be pretty rad
20:07 < fenn> slice a few cubic kilometers of ocean in one second
20:11 < fenn> do you think you could make out a good image of the face by scanning from the back of the skull?
20:12 < jrayhawk> fenn: speaking of medical imaging, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWGBRsV9omw may be a thing you missed while offline
20:12 < jrayhawk> .title
20:12 < yoleaux> 3D Visualizer with Oculus and Hydra
20:12 < jrayhawk> .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soCqTzt9dV0&list=UUj_UmpoD8Ph_EcyN_xEXrUQ
20:12 < yoleaux> VR ProtoShop in the Rift and on the Desktop
20:13 < fenn> should i look at the rest of the playlist?
20:13 < jrayhawk> eventually
20:13 < jrayhawk> that guy does amazing shit
20:13 <@kanzure> "visual analysis tool for three-dimensional volumetric data, such as CAT or MRI scans" not fair, anyone can make fancy visualizations once you have high quality data
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20:14 < jrayhawk> his visualizations are fancier
20:16 <@kanzure> "Atlas of Color-Coded Doppler Sonography: Vascular and Soft Tissue Structures of the Upper Extremity, Thoracic Outlet and Neck" http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/view.php?id=1067313
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20:20 < fenn> jrayhawk: yep what he's doing in the video is pretty much exactly what i was trying to say about tissue density segmentation
20:20 < fenn> this is pretty standard MRI software stuff
20:22 < fenn> instead of a simple isosurface threshold you could do something more like a hamming window to get an idea of what is above and below your threshold and still be able to see through it
20:24 < fenn> jeez no wonder i can never get it straight, the same thing is called either a "Hann" or "Hanning" or "Hamming" window
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20:26 <@kanzure> i am very confused about why they don't have you doing imaging from multiple angles
20:26 <@kanzure> http://books.google.com/books?id=YfJGexfzB_AC&printsec=frontcover&dq=atlas+of+sonography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rMldU8WGO4nn8AGSzYCwBg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
20:27 <@kanzure> http://books.google.com/books?id=YfJGexfzB_AC&lpg=PP1&dq=atlas%20of%20sonography&pg=PA253#v=onepage&q&f=false
20:27 <@kanzure> they have a diagram of a person somewher in this book, and it's just a single arrow pointing at the abdomen for "where to scan"
20:27 <@kanzure> but why not just collect data from multiple angles and integrate into something
20:29 <@kanzure> maybe everyone prefers to work on x-ray tomography and magnetic resonance imaging
20:29 < fenn> color translucent MRI http://www.anatomybox.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/3d1.jpg
20:29 <@kanzure> why is that colored?
20:30 < fenn> i'm not sure
20:32 < fenn> what's the url schema for wordpress pages by chronology
20:33 < fenn> like "show pages from 2012/06"
20:33 < fenn> oh nevermind it randomly send me to the right page for no reason
20:35 <@kanzure> often assholes install plugins to distort that url schema
20:35 <@kanzure> you want /atom.php or /wp-atom.php or /xmlrpc.php i think
20:35 < fenn> more in that vein (ha)
20:35 < fenn> https://www.google.com/search?num=50&tbm=isch&imgil=pcNFlYVdkkT2TM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTuhuN_i2KIY02gbUkZD4Jt9vq-Sy9xvbbaZJs2rqbQNKKvts2gpQ%253B122%253B150%253BwlnjkyO2lamW1M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ptca.org%25252Fimaging%25252Findex2.html&source=iu&tbs=simg:CAESZRpjCxCo1NgEGgIICAwLELCMpwgaPAo6CAISFL0e8xHtEZoK3RHcHoce
20:35 < fenn> gxH2EPIRGiBMU3VsxI9kNXC1GAOvbtTPUZ1BY87pltJ7-r2CVxpxtAwLEI6u_1ggaCgoICAESBFaCE_1EM&usg=__YjfnJ1JCAG-6JZrOnrH_aWtHdo8%3D&sa=X&ei=WcxdU8zcO4vSsATPnIHQBQ&ved=0CD8Q9QEwBQ&q=ct%20scan
20:35 < fenn> shit lemme fix that
20:36 < fenn> http://tinyurl.com/nx32e8g
20:37 <@kanzure> doesn't it give you a lethal dose of radiation
20:38 < fenn> only if you do it 80 times in a row
20:39 < catern> jesus fuck you fenn
20:39 < catern> what a horrible google image search
20:39 < catern> i'm horrified
20:39 < fenn> heh the one with the baby skull staring back up the abdominal cavity is the worst
20:40 <@kanzure> those images are fucking awesome, what are you complaining about
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20:42 < fenn> so is CT just more convenient or what, why do they use it instead of MRI?
20:43 <@kanzure> cheaper, since the MRI machines are $3M/each
20:43 <@kanzure> and probably something about not knowing about possible implants
20:43 < fenn> apparently the cost per scan is the same
20:43 <@kanzure> hrm.
20:43 < fenn> mri takes longer
20:44 < fenn> says CT is less sensitive to movement (makes sense if it takes less time)
20:44 < fenn> CT can't resolve soft tissue and MRI can't resolve hard tissue (?)
20:46 < cluckj> CT also dumps a bunch of radiation into you
20:46 < fenn> yeah yeah whatever
20:46 < cluckj> naw dude you get super powers, it's sweet
20:46 < fenn> 2 to 10 mSv
20:47 < gradstudentbot> I feel like you don't completely comprehend the scope of this work.
20:47 < cluckj> thanks gradstudentbot
20:47 < gradstudentbot> Sure, I've been spending a lot of time at a pub.... well, pubmed at least.
20:48 < fenn> for an extra million dollars, we'll throw in CT imaging functionality with your MRI
20:48 <@kanzure> and for every additional million after that, we'll do ultrasonic fart imaging
20:48 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:58e8:fa15:933d:2d21] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:49 < fenn> i wonder why there isn't a capacitive sensor
20:49 < fenn> hold touchscreen up to abdomen; instant diagnosis! (with free app registration)
20:50 < fenn> diagnosis: you are a sucker
20:53 < fenn> wow this is the state of the art http://www.tomography.com/pdf/ecttechov.pdf
20:53 < fenn> i mean it's just phased array radar, how hard could it be
20:54 <@kanzure> "CAPACITANCE MEASURING UNIT" fuck you
20:56 < fenn> why is it only used for pipes
20:56 < gradstudentbot> Future work will focus on that.
20:57 < fenn> maybe the impedance mismatch between air and tissue is too high and they dont want to dunk patients in salt water
21:05 < fenn> i can't believe they routinely inject antimatter into people and nobody has developed superpowers (as far as we know)
21:05 <@kanzure> superpowers develop but it's the kind that makes your hair and tumors fall out
21:07 < fenn> super awkwardness
21:08 < fenn> this picture's pretty cool http://www.cancerimaging.com/what_patients.php
21:09 < fenn> so PET could be used for anything you can target an antibody at, or any kind of metabolic process?
21:10 <@kanzure> "Limitations to the widespread use of PET arise from the high costs of cyclotrons needed to produce the short-lived radionuclides for PET scanning and the need for specially adapted on-site chemical synthesis apparatus to produce the radiopharmaceuticals after radioisotope preparation. Organic radiotracer molecules that will contain a positron-emitting radioisotope cannot be synthesized first and then the radioisotope prepared within them, ...
21:10 <@kanzure> ... because bombardment with a cyclotron to prepare the radioisotope destroys any organic carrier for it. Instead, the isotope must be prepared first, then afterward, the chemistry to prepare any organic radiotracer (such as FDG) accomplished very quickly, in the short time before the isotope decays. Few hospitals and universities are capable of maintaining such systems, and most clinical PET is supported by third-party suppliers of ...
21:10 <@kanzure> ... radiotracers that can supply many sites simultaneously."
21:10 <@kanzure> "This limitation restricts clinical PET primarily to the use of tracers labelled with fluorine-18, which has a half-life of 110 minutes and can be transported a reasonable distance before use, or to rubidium-82 (used as rubidium-82 chloride) with a half-life of 1.27 minutes, which is created in a portable generator and is used for myocardial perfusion studies. Nevertheless, in recent years a few on-site cyclotrons with integrated shielding ...
21:10 <@kanzure> ... and "hot labs" (automated chemistry labs that are able to work with radioisotopes) have begun to accompany PET units to remote hospitals. The presence of the small on-site cyclotron promises to expand in the future as the cyclotrons shrink in response to the high cost of isotope transportation to remote PET machines[17]"
21:11 < fenn> "hot labs" (automated chemistry labs that are able to work with radioisotopes)  where do i click "buy"
21:12 <@kanzure> only button available initiates a phone call to someone who is paid to not sell it to you
21:13 < fenn> seriously this is the only widespread use of "automated synthesis" i've heard of
21:13 < fenn> i wonder how diverse the output is
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21:15 < fenn> jeez that's a poorly optimized gif
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21:27 < fenn> daniel amen uses SPECT scans as part of his psychiatric diagnosis process
21:28 <@kanzure> "A miniature PE tomograph has been constructed that is small enough for a fully conscious and mobile rat to wear on its head while walking around.[36] This RatCAP (Rat Conscious Animal PET) allows animals to be scanned without the confounding effects of anesthesia. PET scanners designed specifically for imaging rodents, often referred to as microPET, as well as scanners for small primates are marketed for academic and pharmaceutical research."
21:28 <@kanzure> "marketed for research" what a broken world
21:28 < fenn> i wonder if you can get an idea for the concentration of neurotransmitters in different areas of the brain by supplying slower-decaying radioisotope tagged neurotransmitter precursors
21:29 <@kanzure> someone did a similar thing with gfp-tagged somethings in brains, and then switched from gfp to something visible in magnetic resonance imaging
21:29 < fenn> are you sure you're not thinking "a deepness in the sky"
21:30 <@kanzure> i am absolutely sure, i have an image in my head and everything
21:30 < fenn> was it nano iron particles
21:30 <@kanzure> this may be it, but this is gfp-only :(
21:30 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.2.png
21:30 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.3.png
21:31 <@kanzure> and that was not in vivo :v
21:31 < fenn> wow that's super duper high resolution
21:31 < gradstudentbot> Is that published?
21:31 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.5.png
21:32 <@kanzure> well it's in a culture, so it's probably just a microscope pointed at it
21:32 <@kanzure> here's the paper,
21:32 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.pdf
21:32 < fenn> meh
21:33 < fenn> gadolinium, iron oxide, iron platinum, manganese, and "Newer research suggests the possibility of protein based contrast agents, based on the abilities of some amino acids to bind with gadolinium"
21:34 < fenn> wut. "Natural products with high manganese concentration such as blueberry and green tea can also be used for T1 increasing contrast enhancement"
21:38 <@kanzure> ParahSailin: say things about those fancypants radioisotope antibodies
21:38 <@kanzure> i don't know why i remember this
21:38 < ParahSailin> radioisotopes?
21:39 <@kanzure> yeah, something about positron emission tomography plus radiolabelled antibodies
21:40 <@kanzure> "Tumor imaging with radioactive metal chelates conjugated to monoclonal antibodies"
21:40 <@kanzure> *radiolabeled
21:41 < fenn> 19:58 < kanzure> fenn: researchers have found a way to do fluorotagging but for magnetism
21:41 < fenn> 19:59 < kanzure> so supposedly we can come up with some super-high-resolution MRI machines and get an image of cellular resolution.
21:41 < fenn> oops that was from  2008-06-07.log
21:42 < fenn> http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2008/06/03/gene_that_magnetically_labels_cells_shows_potential_as_imaging_tool.html
21:42 <@kanzure> yeah, like:
21:42 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/MagA%20is%20sufficient%20for%20producing%20magnetic%20nanoparticles%20in%20mammalian%20cells,%20making%20it%20an%20MRI%20reporter.pdf
21:42 <@kanzure> more general: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/MRI%20Reporter%20Genes.pdf
21:42 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Molecular%20imaging%20of%20lentiviral%20vector-mediated%20reporter%20gene%20expression%20with%20positron%20emission%20tomography%20and%20bioluminescence%20imaging.pdf
21:43 < fenn> The gene MagA comes from magnetotactic bacteria, which can sense the Earth's magnetic field. It encodes a protein that transports dissolved iron across cell membranes. When put into animal cells, MagA triggers the accumulation of lumps of magnetite (iron oxide) a few nanometers wide,
21:43 <@kanzure> unfortunately it requires plasmids or gene therapy or mRNA expression therapy etc
21:45 < fenn> also you probably don't want iron nanoparticles in your brain
21:46 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/MagA.png
21:49 <@kanzure> oh and then there was that fluorscent quantum dot stuff for subcellular imaging:
21:49 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Mechanochemical%20Delivery%20and%20Dynamic%20Tracking%20of%20Single%20Fluorescent%20Quantum%20Dots%20in%20the%20Cytoplasm%20and%20Nucleus%20of%20Living%20Cells.pdf
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21:54 < fenn> that's not very impressive, compared to PALM microscopy etc
21:55 <@kanzure> google ad tells me "Get the highest resolution in light microscopy for $395k"
21:55 <@kanzure> link is to http://www.zeiss.com/superresolution‎
21:56 <@kanzure> haha it 404s
21:56 <@kanzure> YES
21:57 < gradstudentbot> Wasn't that a Nature paper?
21:58 <@kanzure> http://www.biotechniques.com/news/iPALM-resolving-the-third-dimension/biotechniques-311352.html?autnID=251548
21:58 <@kanzure> "Unlike standard fluorescent dyes and proteins that emit a single persistent spectral signal, PA-FPs emit two distinct signals that can be toggled between “on” and “off” states via irradiation with ultraviolet light. These signals either vary in brightness or color. At any given time, a researcher could switch on a subset of the labeled molecules, yielding bright, distinct signals over dark backgrounds. PA-FPs are genetically linked ...
21:59 <@kanzure> ... to proteins of interest, eliminating the incidence of nonspecific labeling—a common occurrence in antibody-mediated fluorescent labeling. Patterson and Lippincott-Schwartz had been using FA-GFP in standard microscopy applications to highlight populations of proteins within cells."
21:59 < fenn> seeing this in 3D is pretty badass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoactivated_localization_microscopy#The_super-resolution_image
21:59 <@kanzure> "The principle behind PALM. A sparse subset of PA-FP molecules attached to proteins of interest within a cell are activated with a brief laser pulse until most are bleached. This process is repeated many times until there are few remaining unbleached molecles. The images are then summed"
22:00 <@kanzure> isn't "seeing what you're doing" a sin against biology?
22:01 <@kanzure> a TRUE biologist would do it by estimating the trajectories of all proteins simultaneously (before lunch)
22:01 < fenn> ah here we go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnnPyhDxYGA
22:02 < fenn> .title
22:02 < yoleaux> Intersection of Physics and Biology - Jan Liphardt (SETI Talks)
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22:03 < fenn> jeez this computer used to play youtube in the browser just fine
22:03 < cluckj> FPs are really cool
22:06 < fenn> skip to 49:00
22:06 <@kanzure> hah what is this guy up to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4091#issuecomment-41508675
22:06 <@kanzure> oops, didn't mean that particular comment
22:07 <@kanzure> fenn: &t=49m etc
22:08 < fenn> PALM is actually very similar to PET
22:08 < cluckj> holy shit
22:08 < cluckj> that zoom blew my mind a little
22:09 < fenn> yeah i was just randomly at that talk "i wonder what's happening at SETI today"
22:11 <@kanzure> it's not your computer with the troubles playing this video
22:11 <@kanzure> definitely a weirdo network issue on their end
22:13 < fenn> no it's all videos
22:13 <@kanzure> i wonder if anyone is using hadoop mapreduce stuff in astronomy
22:13 <@kanzure> is there enough data to bother
22:14 <@kanzure> or is it all just signal analysis
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22:15 < fenn> astronomy is generating a crapload of data
22:16 <@kanzure> more than biology?
22:16 < fenn> not sure, but likely
22:16 < fenn> my brother was talking about the astronomers hogging their data backbone, petabytes were being thrown around
22:17 <@kanzure> i thought that was the high-energy physics jocks
22:18 < fenn> the network was designed for SLAC and LLNL but it got hijacked apparently
22:18 < fenn> er LBNL
22:26 < fenn> hmm i dont see any astronomers here http://www.hpss-collaboration.org/learn_who_petabyte_data.shtml
22:29 < superkuh> When the SKA is up it'll be a big contributor. https://www.skatelescope.org/technology/signal-processing/
22:30 < fenn> you'd think "how fast is astronomy data being generated" would be easy to answer
22:30 < superkuh> Most of the raw samples are thrown away.
22:30 < superkuh> Otherwise every LOFAR station would be doing many GB/s.
22:31 < fenn> of course, but surely they are storing a lot
22:33 < fenn> "160 gigabit, pff that's only 160 ethernet cards!"
22:33 < superkuh> Oh, yeah, heh, this LOFAR presentation explicitly mentions Map/Reduce.
22:35 < fenn> so are they using it while building it?
22:37 < superkuh> Don't know about SKA. But there are lots of LOFAR stations that are completely operational/done.
22:37  * fenn notes that the site is vulnerable to heartbleed still...
22:39 < fenn> gosh it just keeps coming back to beamforming
22:39 < fenn> has anyone here built a phased array anything?
22:41 < fenn> how is it that the optimal telescope design is a bunch of posts thrown out of an airplane?
22:42 < superkuh> I don't transmit, but I've built a 10 GHz intensity interferometer.
22:46 < superkuh> Similar enough by reciprocity.
22:46 < fenn> stupid pdfs.. grr
22:54 < fenn> well anyway here's a bunch of posts in some dirt http://www.icrar.org/__data/assets/image/0010/1026586/sparse_array_close.jpg
22:56 < AshleyWaffle> discussion about morality: http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/244sh7/louis_ck_and_some_of_the_best_practical_advice/ch3u3dx?context=2
22:56 < AshleyWaffle> muh authentic_pineconeness :D
22:56 < fenn> an intensity interferometer throws away the phase; how is it an interferometer?
22:57 < superkuh> The total power of the incoming wavefront is correlated.
22:57 < gradstudentbot> Hah, look at figure 6. That's definitely a little weird.
22:57 < superkuh> The correlation decays as a sinc function as distance increases.
22:58 < superkuh> https://www.superkuh.com/library/Space/Radio%20Astronomy/intensity-interferometry.pdf covers it well and describes the first implementation.
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23:15 < fenn> i read about a gps receiver design that was capable of millimeter accuracy, i wonder if it works on the same principle
23:18 < superkuh> I think most of those use the carrier of the GPS signal instead of the modulated pseudorandom signal.
23:18 < fenn> "about one half inch" http://www.aticourses.com/sampler/InterferomentryTechniques_ExtractingUsefulInformationFromGPSCarrierWaves.pdf
23:20 < fenn> using the carrier is better anyway because you can lock onto any satellite (or any beacon really)
23:23 < fenn> man, GPS makes my head hurt
23:23 < fenn> all these clocks flying around
23:26 < fenn> anyway, instead of "building" a radio telescope array, you could throw them out an airplane and precisely measure the position wrt a satellite beacon, and communicate wirelessly to scattered nodes connected to a fiber backbone
23:27 < fenn> and hopefully your wireless bandwidth is higher than the observation band
23:28 < superkuh> I was surprised to learn a month or two back that sometimes greater baseline length does not lead to greater sensitivity. It depends on your target. For epoch of reionization stuff where you have to look through foreground clutter like the galaxy the tighter array you use the higher the sensitivity.
23:28 < superkuh> ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q6OxSFD83o
23:29 < fenn> like pinhole optics
23:33 < fenn> reading the intensity interferometer paper, if they had a radio beacon satellite like GPS in the 1950s they could have just compared the relative phase of the star observation to the satellite
23:35 < fenn> ah so this is how the paperclip-maximizing AI gets started...
23:38 < fenn> .title
23:38 < yoleaux> CfA Colloquium: Building HERA From PAPERclips and Supercomputers
23:41 < gradstudentbot> Do you have references for that?
23:57 < xentrac> fenn: you can, but you'll still want to precisely align the parabolic reflectors on each antenna
23:57 < xentrac> because compensating for the lack of parabolic reflectors will increase the number of nodes you need by about six orders of magnitude
23:58 < fenn> what parabolic reflector?
23:58 < xentrac> (if I understand the math correctly and 60 dBi is usual for a parabolic reflector)
23:58 < xentrac> the parabolic reflector you put on to avoid needing six orders of magnitude more nodes
23:59 < xentrac> kanzure: the Soundlazer is ultrasonic, not phased-array
--- Log closed Mon Apr 28 00:00:40 2014