--- Log opened Mon Apr 28 00:00:40 2014 --- Day changed Mon Apr 28 2014 00:00 < fenn> each post has an aimable dish on it then (i'm still not sure how you're getting this six orders of magnitude figure) 00:02 < xentrac> I think 60 dBi is usual for a parabolic reflector, and I think getting 60 dBi more of beamforming gain out of a phased array requires 60 dB more array elements 00:02 < xentrac> but I could be off on either of those 00:04 < fenn> it would be more stable and less moving mass if the dish sat on the ground and the antenna moved 00:04 < xentrac> kanzure: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.30.7061 is not the same paper but another paper on the same system from two years later 00:04 < xentrac> on the 512-microphone Huge Microphone Array 00:05 < xentrac> fenn: you could lose less than 60 dBi that way, for sure 00:05 < xentrac> Arecibo works that way, no? 00:05 < fenn> right, but arecibo is 1) not an array and 2) longer wavelengths than i'm talking about 00:06 < xentrac> oh wait, for the same year 00:06 < fenn> .title 00:06 < yoleaux> The Huge Microphone Array (HMA) 00:06 < xentrac> I know it's not an array :) 00:06 < xentrac> but take a look at e.g. 00:06 < xentrac> .g allen telescope array 00:06 < yoleaux> http://www.seti.org/ata 00:06 < fenn> right 00:06 < xentrac> .g allen telescope array dbi dish 00:06 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Telescope_Array 00:08 < fenn> ET was actually hacking into the seti array via a communications satellite 00:08 < fenn> creepy little bugger 00:10 < fenn> i don't have enough intuition about dish arrays to understand how they actually work 00:11 < xentrac> hmm, well, I think you get some amount of directionality (measured in dBi) from the dish 00:11 < xentrac> and then you get more directionality from cross-correlating the signals from all the dishes at varying time delays 00:12 < xentrac> the time delays correspond to the difference in the time at which a planar wavefront coming from a given direction would hit the different antennas 00:13 < xentrac> different planar wavefronts correspond to different directions, which is to say, different points in the sky within the field of view 00:13 < xentrac> the ATA uses an "FX correlator" design, which applies a Fourier transform to the incoming signals before trying to apply the time delays 00:13 < xentrac> apparently this reduces the amount of computation required 00:17 < fenn> oh i think there was a space telescope like what i was suggesting, (SPIRIT?) where they fly in formation and each satellite acts as an element in an interferometric array 00:19 < fenn> if the orbital parameters are precisely known, can't you cancel out the redshift, array position changes, array spacing changes, and angle? (whew0 00:20 < xentrac> yes, and you can measure them with lasers 00:21 < fenn> so does each spacecraft need to do processing onboard (does that even make sense?) 00:22 < fenn> "gain" is basically throwing away data 00:23 < fenn> a bare wire picks up all the EM from every angle 00:23 < fenn> so i'm still stuck on why a dish is better than wires of equivalent area 00:26 < fenn> (a wire antenna emits a "donut" shaped radiation pattern, does this mean a "donut" shaped antenna emits a linear radiation pattern?) 00:27 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:27 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:28 < xentrac> oh, why is a dish directional? 00:29 < xentrac> the dish isn't really the antenna. it's just a passive reflector that focuses the incoming planar wavefront to a point, which may have a real antenna or maybe just a feedhorn 00:30 < xentrac> "gain" is indeed throwing away data 00:30 < fenn> no, not dishes 00:31 < fenn> this information is impossible to google apparently 00:31 < xentrac> if you're wondering why a parabolic dish focuses a planar wavefront to a point, I think Apollonius or Archimedes discovered that 00:31 < fenn> a toroidal transformer containss the magnetic flux in a ring, so maybe it's just a bad antenna 00:31 < xentrac> but it will involve equations ♪ scary music ♪ 00:32 < xentrac> yes, a toroidal transformer is just a bad antenna 00:33 < fenn> okay this is just ridiculous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LISA_orbits6.jpg 00:34 < gradstudentbot> Blah, I'm going to quit. 00:34 < fenn> the yellow dot is the sun 00:37 < fenn> apparently lead isn't dense enough so they want to use platinum-gold? 00:37 < fenn> that doesn't even make sense 00:40 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:40 < fenn> it has something to do with "magnetic cleanliness" 00:43 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:43 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:49 < fenn> "instantaneous frequency coverage from 0.5 to 11.2 GHz" would be handy in a variety of situations 00:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:03 < fenn> the allen telescope array uses gregorian optics. "The design pre-dates the first practical reflecting telescope, the Newtonian telescope" 01:04 < fenn> it's really incredible how much they knew about light in the 17th century 01:05 < xentrac> well, as I said, the relevant property of a parabola was known much earlier 01:05 < fenn> yes yes archimedes setting the boats on fire 01:07 < fenn> basically science took a vacation from 200 AD to 1650 01:07 < xmj> fenn: not quite 01:08 < fenn> huh. "Roman Empire's Fall is Linked With Gout and Lead Poisoning" 01:12 < fenn> xmj: oh i forgot about the moors 01:13 < xmj> fenn: there were some monks who promoted their own brand of science 01:13 < xmj> thomas aquinus 01:14 < cpopell> Poor Aquinas 01:14 < cpopell> his best known work is his weakest, and he knew it was his weakest 01:14 < fenn> oh whatever, the monks produced nothing of consequence 01:15 < cpopell> uh 01:15 < cpopell> medicine, agriculture 01:15 < fenn> both of which existed long before any monks appeared 01:15 < cpopell> yes, and they advanced them or reproduced it 01:16 < cpopell> that is 'of consequence' 01:16 < fenn> they made some advances in beehive construction and bookbinding 01:17 < cpopell> ever heard of Ockham's Razor? 01:17 < fenn> you mean the most widely misquoted observation ever? 01:17 < cpopell> curvature of light via atmospheric refraction? 01:17 < cpopell> Its misuse does not bely the fact it has a use 01:18 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:18 < cpopell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science 01:18 < cpopell> Pick a year set. 01:18 < cpopell> you're getting more monks/priests before the 1600s 01:19 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21 < fenn> we have to skip over 1000 years before anything interesting shows up 01:24 < fenn> okay roger bacon did some stuff 01:26 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:27 < fenn> it seems like bacon was more of a pen-pal with islamic scientists of the time 01:27 < fenn> "Bacon's investigations of the properties of the magnifying glass partly rested on the handed-down legacy of Islamic opticians, mainly Alhazen, who was in his turn influenced by Ibn Sahl's 10th-century legacy in dioptrics" 01:32 < fenn> i can't help but laugh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_of_Ockham_-_Logica_-_1341.jpg 01:42 < blueskin> and now they don't even have toilet paper, let alone glasses 01:43 < fenn> for a second i thought you were talking about monks 01:47 < fenn> what tatooine is real http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tataouine 01:49 < xentrac> they didn't have toilet paper at the time either 01:49 < xentrac> Ibn Battuta rather famously condemned the Chinese as filthy for using toilet paper 01:49 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:49 < jrayhawk> jeepers http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/04/27/seth/ 01:49 < xentrac> which is what most non-toilet-paper users still think about toilet-paper usrs 01:52 < xentrac> I think there was a famous upper-class Hindu pop music star who stopped performing in public when she realized that most of her listeners used toilet paper 01:53 < fenn> jrayhawk: oh boy, now everyone wants to nitpick his experimentation as if that were the cause 01:54 < fenn> jrayhawk: that sucks. i liked seth's way of thinking 01:54 < jrayhawk> here's hoping for quantifiedautopsy.com 01:57 < fenn> so, reasons people suddenly collapse and die: brain aneurysm, heart attack, ? 01:58 < jrayhawk> immunological insult 01:58 < fenn> what, toxic shock syndrome? 01:58 < jrayhawk> something as simple as a bee sting can kill some people 01:59 < fenn> none of these makes sense 01:59 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:11 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@188.89.20.197] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:15 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:24 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:36 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:37 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:37 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 02:37 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:45 < fenn> pocket ultrasound machines, why doesn't everyone have one of these? 02:45 < fenn> let's just make one and say it's for deciding how to carve a turkey or something 02:48 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't know, but I'll have to look into that. 02:58 < fenn> medical stuff you can do with just a pocket ultrasound: http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2014/01/ultrasound-in-south-sudan-what-might-it.html 02:58 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:16 < mosasaur> Holographic doctors would still be cheaper. 03:16 -!- Lemminkainen [uid2346@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kuhpxvkkyeylccqg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 03:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:31 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:38 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41 < fenn> mosasaur: all the phased array ultrasound stuff we have been talking about is basically a holographic scanner, so nyah 03:43 < fenn> a film hologram just encodes the relative phases as tiny lines 03:45 < mosasaur> It's still at dr. McCoy level, not an Emergency Medical Hologram. 04:05 < mosasaur> The problem with doctors, lawyers, judges and so on is they think they cannot be automated, but in reality they are next on the list. Nurses and other professions, where either dexterity or human interaction are considered crucial, will probably remain somewhat longer. Not surgeons though, since that is dexterity with a limited scope. 04:08 < fenn> imagining lawyer-bot i just keep seeing bender from futurama wearing one of those english wigs 04:12 < mosasaur> That's fortunate. I am imagining a local computer science professor here. Their motto is: "I don't like fighting, but if there is a fight, I'll gladly join". 04:14 < fenn> an automated legal system is worth fighting for. there's an essay about such things buried in this page somewhere http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/ 04:16 < mosasaur> Is that name ... a coincidence? 04:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:17 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCarthy_(computer_scientist) 04:18 < fenn> jmc discovered Lisp, an actual discovery of computer science 04:18 < fenn> or rather, the usefulness of S-expressions 04:19 < fenn> In 1982 he seems to have originated the idea of the "space fountain", a type of tower extending into space and kept vertical by the outward force of a stream of pellets propelled from Earth along a sort of conveyor belt which returns the pellets to Earth (payloads would ride the conveyor belt upward). 04:19 < fenn> i forgot about that 04:20 < mosasaur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism 04:20 < fenn> yes i know, the other guy who did nothing useful 04:21 < mosasaur> lisp fora seem to have the most bitter infighting 04:21 < mosasaur> But OK. I'll let it go. 04:21 < fenn> he looks just like Ted Cruz, the current fuckwit 04:22 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@host217-43-195-27.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:22 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:25 < fenn> there is probably a lot of treasure buried in his webpage 04:29 < mosasaur> A space fountain seems nice. But wouldn't a vertical raygun ending in the upper atmosphere work better? 04:30 < mosasaur> Assuming we can maintain low atmospheric pressure all the way down the pipe. 04:37 < fenn> what's a raygun 04:37 < fenn> a railgun would put too much acceleration on the occupants 04:37 < fenn> also they're very inefficient, and you can't extract energy from falling cargo 04:40 < mosasaur> Oh right. Now I wonder what a railhawk is. 04:41 < fenn> a launch loop works like a space fountain but without the need for vacuum 04:42 < fenn> or rather, the system has a flexible sheath that maintains vacuum inside 04:42 < mosasaur> If we'd hollow out a 10 KM high mountain, make a tube in it, and put a 10 KM tower on top of it. 04:42 < fenn> also the launch loop is self-launching, or self-inflating, so you don't have to build anything 04:42 < fenn> the general idea is "dynamic compression members" 04:43 -!- Adifex is now known as Adifex|zzz 04:43 < mosasaur> We'd have 20 KM vertical runway, that should be enough? 04:43 < fenn> you can build a much longer bridge out of things flying back and forth than you can build out of solid hunks of matter 04:45 < mosasaur> Is it like running up an escalator that is going down? 04:45 < fenn> (12km/s)^2/40km = 367 gravities of acceleration (plus or minus a factor of two) 04:47 < fenn> 7.8km/s, 9.4km/s, whatever 04:47 < fenn> oh i guess it makes a difference 04:48 < fenn> 7.8km/s yields "only" 155 gravities 04:48 < mosasaur> I don't exactly understand what you are computing but it seems off. 04:49 < fenn> it probably is 04:51 < fenn> distance = 0.5 acceleration * time^2 04:51 < mosasaur> If we accelerate at 1 g for 20 KM what is the end speed? 04:52 < mosasaur> assuming humans can tolerate 2 g 04:57 < mosasaur> https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=If+we+accelerate+at+1+g+for+20+KM+what+is+the+end+speed%3F&dataset= 04:57 < mosasaur> make him understand 04:57 < fenn> i was able to derive this at one time, then i just saved all the formulas on my TI-85 05:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:01 < fenn> .wa 1 g acceleration for 20 KM what is the end velocity 05:01 < yoleaux> Input information: acceleration: 1 g (standard acceleration due to gravity on the surface of the earth); distance: 20 km (kilometers); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: final speed: 626.3 m/s (meters per second); = 1401 mph (miles per hour); = 2255 km/h (kilometers per hour) 05:01 < mosasaur> vt=a*t 05:02 < mosasaur> great. we need more g's 05:04 < fenn> so apparently v^2 = 2a * x 05:05 < mosasaur> .wa end velocity 9.2 km/s distance 20 km what is the acceleration 05:05 < yoleaux> Input information: final speed: 9.2 km/s (kilometers per second); distance: 20 km (kilometers); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: acceleration: 2.116 km/s² (kilometers per second squared); = 6942.3 ft/s² (feet per second squared); = 2116 m/s² (meters per second squared) 05:06 < fenn> .wa 2.116 km/s² as acceleration of gravity 05:06 < yoleaux> convert 2.1160 km/s² (kilometers per second squared) to standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth: 215.77 g (standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth); Additional conversions: 6942.3 ft/s² (feet per second squared); 83307 in/s² (inches per second squared); 2116 m/s² (meters per second squared); 211600 cm/s² (centimeters per second squared); 7617.6 km/h/s (kilometers per hour … 05:06 < yoleaux> per second) 05:07 < fenn> i like "units" better 05:08 < mosasaur> it seems you were close 05:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:09 < fenn> off by a factor of two. either i accounted for that or i didn't, depending whether we were calculating with the runway included or not 05:09 < fenn> either way you would be paste 05:10 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:12 < fenn> when you integrate you divide by the polynomial, and when you go the other direction you multiply 05:13 < mosasaur> .wa end velocity 9.2 km/s acceleration 2 g what is the distance 05:13 < yoleaux> Input information: final speed: 9.2 km/s (kilometers per second); acceleration: 2 g (standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: distance: 2157.7 km (kilometers); = 1340.7 miles; = 2.1577×10⁶ meters 05:13 < mosasaur> what? we need a 2000 KM railgun? 05:14 < fenn> that sounds about right 05:14 < fenn> haven't you ever followed the space shuttle launch telemetry? most rocket launches are around 10g and they are still blasting away over the mediterranean 05:16 < fenn> .wa distance cape canaveral to lisbon 05:16 < mosasaur> .wa end velocity 9.2 km/s acceleration 10 g what is the distance 05:16 < yoleaux> Input information: final speed: 9.2 km/s (kilometers per second); acceleration: 10 g (standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: distance: 431.54 km (kilometers); = 268.15 miles; = 431540 meters 05:16 < yoleaux> distance: from: Cape Canaveral, Florida, United States; to: Lisbon, Lisboa, Portugal: 6569 km (kilometers); Unit conversions: 4082 miles; 6569 km (kilometers); 6.569×10⁶ meters; 3547 nmi (nautical miles); Direct travel times: aircraft (550 mph): 7 hours 25 minutes; sound: 5 hours 20 minutes; light in fiber: 31 ms (milliseconds); light in vacuum: 22 ms (milliseconds); (assuming constant-speed great-circle path) 05:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:18 < fenn> the solid rocket boosters add a lot of acceleration and they fall away over the atlantic, and then the high ISP hydrogen motor takes over (for the shuttle at least) 05:20 < mosasaur> If the rockets choose to go lateral then maybe a space fountain would better point sideways too? 05:20 < fenn> a launch loop would be constant acceleration and would have to be 4000km long (at 2g) 05:20 < fenn> it could do variable acceleration but there's no point 05:21 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 05:21 < fenn> yes it would go diagonally up and then sideways over the atmosphere and then diagonally back down and then turn around and do it again in the opposite direction 05:22 < fenn> you'd probably want it to make sort of a figure eight so you have access to two orbital inclinations 05:22 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:22 < fenn> 55 and 0 would be nice, since that's the equator and the ISS 05:23 < fenn> 51.6 05:27 < fenn> .wa distance singapore to quito in km 05:27 < yoleaux> convert distance: from: center of Singapore; to: Quito, Pichincha, Ecuador to kilometers: 19742 km (kilometers); Additional conversions: 12267 miles; 1.974×10⁷ meters; 10660 nmi (nautical miles); Corresponding quantities: Light travel time t in vacuum from t = x/c:: 66 ms (milliseconds); Light travel time t in an optical fiber t = 1.48x/c:: 97 ms (milliseconds) 05:28 < fenn> well that's convenient 05:28 < fenn> just go all the way around in two hops :P 05:31 < mosasaur> How about digging a hole through the center of the earth. Just hop in and get out at the other side. Look ma, no g's ! 05:31 < fenn> the goal is to get to orbit, not the other side of the earth 05:32 < fenn> you could actually get there faster than falling if you accelerated at > 2pi g's (i think) 05:33 < fenn> but if there were a hole through the earth you could also accelerate down into it 05:33 < fenn> more importantly, you could beam light waves through it 05:34 < gradstudentbot> Once you go Markov, you never go Bach. 05:34 < fenn> gradstudentbot: did you hook up with emily howell? 05:34 < gradstudentbot> Hey, let's write a paper about that. 05:35 < mosasaur> .wa radius of earth 05:35 < yoleaux> Earth: average radius: 6367.4447 km (kilometers); Unit conversions: 3956.5467 miles; 6.3674447×10⁶ meters; 3438.1451 nmi (nautical miles); Comparison as radius: ~1.1 × Venus radius (6.0519×10⁶ m) 05:36 < mosasaur> that's about long enough for our railgun 05:38 < mosasaur> Btw, why beam light, can't you just send neutrinos? 05:39 < fenn> it's catching them reliably that's the problem 05:40 < fenn> oh the other thing about shooting things into space, you have to de-circularize your orbit, unless you start out above the atmosphere 05:44 < fenn> i like orbiting tethers to circularize. they can also boost a suborbital trajectory to orbital and circularize at the same time 05:44 < fenn> so suddenly puny things like spaceshipone become an actual path to orbit 05:45 < fenn> the tether has to be 1000km long but this is doable with polyethylene 05:48 < mosasaur> Does it have grapplers at the tips? 05:48 < fenn> yeah 05:49 < fenn> realistically you'd only have one end, and the center would be solar panels 05:49 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-157-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:49 < fenn> more panels = more launches 05:49 < fenn> more cable = heavier payloads 05:50 < fenn> er, thicker cable = more payload mass, longer cable = lower g forces 05:50 < fenn> heavier anchor mass (solar panels) = less eccentricity 05:51 < eudoxia> i wonder if matter somehow made from magnetic monopoles could catch neutrinos 05:51 < eudoxia> is neutronium opaque to neutrinos? 05:52 < fenn> .g is neutronium opaque to neutrinos? 05:52 < yoleaux> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.arts.sf.written/yjcyfz-GiV4 05:56 < fenn> it turns out the neutrinos 05:56 < fenn> interact with protons and electrons far more easily than they do with 05:56 < fenn> neutrons, so the degenerate neutronium, kilo for kilo, is a lousy 05:56 < fenn> neutrino shield. 05:59 < eudoxia> aw 05:59 < fenn> some nuclear reactions emit neutrinos. if you could position the endproducts of those reactions at the appropriate energies and near each other (a big if) the neutrino might be absorbed and cause a reaction to occur 05:59 < fenn> something like a heavy ion collider 06:00 < fenn> deuterium fusion produces helium and also emits neutrons, so maybe a helium collider would also work 06:02 < fenn> i am just bullshitting but nobody really knows 06:02 < mosasaur> How about creating entangled neutrinos and then killing their counterparts just as their other half exits the earth core? 06:04 < fenn> why 06:05 < mosasaur> maybe their entangled half would turn into something more easily captured 06:05 < fenn> pink unicorns make better packet carriers and flying teapots are better meme receptors 06:05 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:06 < mosasaur> Well, do you have a better idea of making a star trek transporter? 06:07 < fenn> the neutrino channel is also very noisy; since every star gives off shit-tons of them, and they pass through everything, it's like sending signals by flashlight during daytime 06:08 < fenn> mosasaur: if you read the technical manual they describe how a transporter works. from what i remember no neutrinos are involved, just neutral particles made up of protons and electrons and neutrons, and a "containment beam" whatever that is 06:10 < fenn> a lot of star trek stuff makes sense and is plausible, but a lot of it is pure BS technobabble 06:10 < mosasaur> It would work a bit like creating highly localized sound spots by creating interference between directed ultrasound beams 06:11 < fenn> well we have optic tweezers so it's not that much of a stretch 06:11 < mosasaur> good. now upgrade that to neutrinos 06:11 < fenn> what! i just established no neutrinos were involved 06:12 < fenn> "we're having trouble getting a transporter lock because of the ionizing radiation, captain" 06:12 < fenn> neutrinos wouldn't care about ionizing radiation 06:13 < mosasaur> they wouldn't, but it would break the entanglement 06:13 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:13 < fenn> no it wouldn't 06:15 < mosasaur> I guess you're right. Any beam that could pass through matter wouldn't care much about ions. 06:15 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:16 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:17 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:17 < fenn> proton beams and electron beams pass through matter but since they're already traveling relativistically they see everything as "radiation" 06:18 < fenn> neutrinos just don't see anything 06:18 < fenn> a proton beam will eventually hit something and stop 06:18 < fenn> a neutrino is likely to go to the end of the universe 06:19 < mosasaur> the advantage is there will be less nonlinear effects than there are with ultrasound 06:21 < ebowden> I remember 2012, where the premise was that neutrinos were overheating the earth, and about to totes explode it. 06:21 < fenn> yes and according to complexity theory emergent effects will result in consciousness 06:21 < fenn> from the mayan DMT-pocalypse 06:22 < mosasaur> more like this http://nautil.us/issue/12/feedback/ants-swarm-like-brains-think 06:23 < gradstudentbot> That's definitely a Cell paper. 06:25 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:35 < ebowden> LOL: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3340#comic 07:18 < fenn> mosasaur: did you wear a dinosaur costume as a kid? 07:19 < mosasaur> when I was a kid I was a prognathodon 07:19 < mosasaur> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551 07:20 < mosasaur> .title 07:20 < yoleaux> Ants swarm like brains think 07:20 < mosasaur> Is HN better or just were it links to? 07:23 < fenn> i didn't really get the article. at HN someone pointed out that almost anything can be modeled by ant colonies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_colony_optimization_algorithms 07:24 < fenn> sometimes HN has nothing worth saying though, so who knows 07:25 < fenn> i usually get distracted by the comments instead of RTFA 07:25 < mosasaur> It wouldn't even surprise me if human brains could model things. 07:26 < fenn> i mean modeled as if it were ant colony 07:26 < mosasaur> Sorry, I just couldn't resist. 07:26 < fenn> you're quite the nerd-baiter 07:27 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 07:27 < mosasaur> The later it gets in the day they worse it becomes. 07:27 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:27 < fenn> please seek therapy, for your own sake and ours 07:27 < mosasaur> I usually try to disjoin before it becomes too bad. 07:28 < ebowden> Nerd-baiting is good if you want to find out interesting things. 07:30 <@kanzure> fenn, turkey vision sounds like an okay plan 07:30 < ebowden> It would be hilarious if someone became a functional expert on something solely by nerd baiting. 07:38 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-157-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:52 < xmj> How do you nerd-bait? 07:53 < fenn> it involves typing with one hand 07:54 < fenn> okay my IQ is down 50 points, time for bed 07:55 < mosasaur> night fenn 07:56 < ebowden> Night. 07:56 < mosasaur> I usually become more disinhibited later in the day, I don't know if that means less intelligent unless one counts being right all the time. 07:57 < xmj> mosasaur: that's just the effect of validation 08:30 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:31 < heath> http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm 08:32 <@kanzure> .title 08:32 < yoleaux> Employment Situation Summary 08:32 < heath> for march 2014 08:32 < heath> http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/us/ 08:32 < heath> .title 08:32 < yoleaux> US Unemployment Rate and Total Unemployed 08:32 < heath> with graphs 08:33 < heath> and tables 08:35 < heath> lambdajs recap http://blog.brownplt.org/2012/06/04/lambdajs-coq.html 08:38 < heath> ecma technical committee adopts it: http://blog.brownplt.org/2012/04/01/ecma-lambdajs-announcement.html 08:38 <@kanzure> "GE Healthcare's ultrasound business generates $2 billion a year in revenue. ... Prices range from $7,900 for a hand-held ultrasound to $200,000 for its most advanced model. 08:38 <@kanzure> Read more from Journal Sentinel: http://www.jsonline.com/business/ge-sees-strong-future-with-its-ultrasound-business-uj8mn79-190533061.html#ixzz30CCxslc6 08:38 <@kanzure> fucking jspastespam 08:39 <@kanzure> jsonline.com is on my "kill list" 08:40 < heath> formilization surrounding the dom http://cs.brown.edu/research/plt/dl/domsemantics/domsemantics.pdf 08:42 <@kanzure> haha cost per ultrasound test is $200-$300. p. sure the cost in parts is less than that. 08:46 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:46 < ThomasEgi> i'm pretty sure certifications for everyone and everything drives costs up 08:48 <@kanzure> i don't think GE is certifying the buyers 08:49 < ThomasEgi> but it's a medical device right? 08:50 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:54 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:00 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:03 < chris_99> http://hackaday.io/prize/mission 09:12 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:12 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 09:14 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:21 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@188.89.20.197] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:25 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:27 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:33 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:35 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:39 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@80-15-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:41 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:54 -!- archels is now known as _archels 09:57 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:58 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:04 -!- nsh_ is now known as nsh 10:07 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:08 -!- sheena [~home@d154-5-21-237.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:24 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 10:25 <@kanzure> "Furthermore, the use of diagnostic ultrasound for non-medical purposes such as fetal keepsake videos has been discouraged." 10:27 < delinquentme> ultrasound killing babies? 10:27 <@kanzure> "FDA is aware of entrepreneurs that are commercializing ultrasonic imaging of fetuses by making keepsake videos. In some cases, the ultrasound machine may be used for as long as an hour to get a video of the fetus" 10:28 < delinquentme> I'm cirous about the mechanism by which ultrasound apparently helps bones heal faster 10:31 <@kanzure> "RWP is an ultrasonic Phased Array testing system used to inspect wheel set axle for (transversal-oriented) cracks in the maintenance shop" 10:32 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.41] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:36 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:40 < jrayhawk> at least the ultrasound/autism thing didn't pan out 10:41 <@kanzure> damn. 10:48 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:49 <@kanzure> "Persons who promote, sell or lease ultrasound equipment for making "keepsake" fetal videos should know that FDA views this as an unapproved use of a medical device. In addition, those who subject individuals to ultrasound exposure using a diagnostic ultrasound device (a prescription device) without a physician's order may be in violation of State or local laws or regulations regarding use of a prescription medical device." 10:49 <@kanzure> ah good, so just don't make a prescription device 10:49 <@kanzure> keepsake videos. what a funny idea. 10:50 <@kanzure> "3DBabyVu, Fetal Fotos, Peek-A-Boo Baby, and Womb With a View are popping up in shopping centers across the country." 10:51 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, but his PI wrote his dissertation. 10:51 <@kanzure> "Although it is unclear how the FDA will discourage the nonmedical uses of diagnostic ultrasound equipment, other than by notifying the public, it has asked members of the medical community to notify the agency if they become aware of a keepsake operation. - See more at: http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/articles/keepsake-ultrasound-raises-medical-hackles#sthash.WbQOp7kw.dpuf" 10:51 <@kanzure> arrgghh javascript 10:51 -!- sheena [~home@d154-5-21-237.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:54 <@kanzure> "In a sign of its resolve, the FDA embargoed equipment at two Texas operations, Peek-a-Boo Inc. and Baby Images, according to the American Institute of Ultrasound in Medicine. The agency may begin seizing scanners in other states as well. State health officials in Texas, California, New York and Kentucky are also conducting investigations, the AIUM reported." 10:54 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:54 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:56 <@kanzure> "Baby Insight" 10:58 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:59 <@kanzure> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/haryana/fda-seizes-42-ultrasound-machines-under-pndt-act/article1-1187138.aspx 10:59 <@kanzure> "A team of the Haryana Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has recovered 42 portable ultrasound machines from different establishments under the Pre-natal Diagnostic Techniques (PNDT) Act apart from sale details of about 60 portable ultrasound machines supplied across the country. In a release, the FDA commissioner, Rakesh Gupta said the team along with the police confiscated nine ultrasound machines from MIE Industrial Area, Bahadurgarh, in ... 10:59 <@kanzure> ... Jhajjar district. Vijay Dandeva, owner of Kospi-care System, Bahadurgarh, was arrested by the police after he reportedly supplied an ultrasound machine to a decoy without proper verification and mandatory registration of the buyer under the PNDT Act." 11:02 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 11:10 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:14 < delinquentme> kanzure, So you might like this 11:15 < delinquentme> getting free context-specific mentoring ... What if I go to a meetup for bio/ chemist kids and just tell them that I'm selling powdered pig organ meat to 3rd world countries 11:16 < delinquentme> anyone who knows about the topic would insta-freak 11:16 < delinquentme> and just like that I can get my ass chewed out + given a list of things I need to check into on said project 11:20 < ParahSailin> pig organ meat 11:20 < delinquentme> http://www.ijoonline.com/article.asp?issn=0019-5413;year=2009;volume=43;issue=2;spage=132;epage=140;aulast=Mundi 11:20 < delinquentme> fracture healing 11:20 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, yeth. 11:21 < delinquentme> we currently use piggy heart valves in humans 11:21 < delinquentme> but clearly making novel superbugs isn't what I'm here to do 11:22 < delinquentme> ParahSailin, do you know anything about gas chromatography mass spectrometry? 11:22 < delinquentme> would I be able to refine down "specific molecules" ? 11:23 < ParahSailin> "refine down" 11:24 < delinquentme> So say that we have a reasonable knowledge of what components of the ECM are actually desireable. Collagen, elastin, fibronectin and laminin . Would GCMS allow me to remove viral components if they were present 11:24 < ParahSailin> haha no 11:24 < ParahSailin> gcms is not for isolating compounds 11:25 < ParahSailin> cursory research would reveal this 11:25 < delinquentme> My default thinking was HPLC ... but wiki tells me that its not wildly specific. And even in looking up compounds on sigma aldrich they're hitting like 97% in their purity with HPLC 11:25 <@kanzure> you want to use something that selectively binds to your target, like an antibody or aptamer 11:26 < delinquentme> wiki told me that GCMS is used specifically as it gives an exact match or whats referred to as " a specific test" 11:26 < ParahSailin> nor is gas chromatography something you use on large molecule that dont really turn into gas 11:27 < delinquentme> kk so I need to re-read the wiki 11:28 < delinquentme> So then the question in selling ECM is really " how can I make the 'cleaning' process somewhat cost effective " 11:29 < ParahSailin> hplc works fine at isolating proteins 11:29 < ParahSailin> not really sure why you want collagen 11:32 < delinquentme> whats a good catch-all term for this kind of cleaning ParahSailin ? 11:32 < delinquentme> And before I shoot off this email ... is it assonine to ask if I can remove viral particles? 11:34 <@kanzure> you need a 10 nm filter to catch all viruses 11:34 < delinquentme> is it that easy? 11:35 < delinquentme> Like thats a commercial product. I could buy that shit 11:35 < delinquentme> and on the terminology 11:35 < delinquentme> what is this shit referred to as? 11:36 < delinquentme> "chemistry" lol 11:36 < gradstudentbot> I think I have ebola. 11:37 < gradstudentbot> Let's have a pset party. 11:38 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:42 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:44 < ParahSailin> anyway, use bovine, not pig if you want collagen 11:47 < ParahSailin> and nobody uses hplc to purify collagen 11:47 < ParahSailin> because that will yield stupidly small amounts 11:50 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:50 < ParahSailin> which raises the question of why you dont just want to buy it from the people who purify it in industrial scale for cosmetics 11:59 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:12 <@kanzure> i wonder if alibaba sells whale barf 12:13 <@kanzure> nope 12:25 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:32 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-erlkyvvlmetlgyvt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 12:37 -!- arthurpeace [~quassel@mon75-9-82-235-179-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:37 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 12:41 -!- arthurpeace [~quassel@mon75-9-82-235-179-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41 <@kanzure> millwrights 12:41 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:44 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:05 <@kanzure> "However, the Airfuge has been in production for about 30 years with no changes, the patents have expired, the thing has about 12 parts that cost a total of maybe $30, and they still cost $12000." 13:06 <@kanzure> "uses compressed air to spin the rotor" 13:09 <@kanzure> ".S. Marshals, acting at the request of the Food and Drug Administration, have seized Other-Sonic Generic Ultrasound Transmission Gel located at Pharmaceutical Innovations Inc. in Newark, N.J., after an FDA analysis found that product samples contained dangerous bacteria. The seizure included all lots of the gel product manufactured between June 2011 and December 2011. Until they were seized, the products were held under embargo by the New ... 13:09 <@kanzure> ... Jersey Department of Health and Senior Services at FDA’s request." 13:10 <@kanzure> oh: "The FDA received a report involving 16 surgical patients infected with Pseudomonas aeruginosa. The patients had transesophageal ultrasound procedures, while undergoing heart valve replacement, using Other-Sonic Generic Ultrasound Transmission Gel." 13:11 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:14 -!- HEx2 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:28 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:58 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:08 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:14 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:16 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:37 <@kanzure> you guys are boring 14:39 < cpopell> I'm working on being less useless. That necessitates IRCing less 14:39 <@kanzure> actually, you can python in irc 14:39 <@kanzure> .py print "yo dawg" 14:39 < yoleaux> yo dawg 14:40 < cpopell> Right now I'm reading, actually 14:44 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:44 -!- Adifex|zzz is now known as Adifex 14:46 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 14:52 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:57 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-tutgbmzjnpvukjcq] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:09 <@kanzure> "an instrument, apparatus, implement, machine, contrivance, implant, in vitro reagent, or other similar or related article, including any component part, or accessory, which is ….. intended for use in the diagnosis of disease, or other conditions, or in the cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease, in man or other animals, or intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals and which does not ... 15:10 <@kanzure> ... achieve any of its principal intended purposes through chemical action within or on the body of man or other animals and which is not dependent upon being metabolized for the achievement of any of its principal intended purposes." 15:10 <@kanzure> "There are currently no requirements for FDA pre-market approval of medical devices intended for animal use. Animal medical devices and diagnostic aids are, however, subject to the general provisions of the Act that relate to misbranding and adulteration. For example, an animal medical device is misbranded if the labeling is false or misleading (21 U.S.C. 352(b)). An animal medical device may be considered misbranded if the labeling fails to ... 15:10 <@kanzure> ... bear adequate directions for use by the layperson (21 U.S.C. 352(f)(1)). An animal device is misbranded if it is dangerous to animal or human health when used in the manner prescribed, recommended, or suggested in labeling (21 U.S.C. 352(j)). The FDA relies on veterinarians and other users to report unsafe animal medical devices." 15:12 <@kanzure> "For use on non-human hominids only." 15:13 <@kanzure> "i reject your classification of myself as a human, and prefer this other classification where i have access to neat technology" 15:15 < strangewarp> "you are redefining yourself as an animal, not for legal reasons, but because you recognize that it is inhuman to unethically experiment upon yourself, and the law has merely caused you to reveal this" -- an argument I have encountered 15:16 <@kanzure> experiment? i just want to play music at 2 MHz into my kidneys. 15:16 < strangewarp> heh 15:17 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:17 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:19 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:23 -!- andytoshi [~andytoshi@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-29-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:29 < cluckj> rejection of own humanity is proof of your humanity 15:30 < eudoxia> to be more than human is to be human #fm2030 #proactive #future 15:33 <@kanzure> well that sounds like a terrible trap 15:36 < FourFire> kanzure, cool, what are you then? 15:36 < FourFire> Homo-sapiens-Futuris? 15:36 <@kanzure> dunno, haven't scanned myself yet 15:37 < FourFire> you just need to make the machine edible 15:37 < FourFire> or a part of it 15:39 <@kanzure> unfortunately they also regulate food 15:46 -!- sheena [~home@67.201.165.63] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:48 < FourFire> strangewarp, heh sounds like the opposite of a story I read recently 15:55 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:06 < jrayhawk> http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/04/male-scent-may-compromise-biomedical-research jeepers 16:06 <@kanzure> hazard suits for everyone 16:07 <@kanzure> you can often contaminate pcr/dna samples just by touching it 16:07 < jrayhawk> ethanol baths for all 16:11 <@kanzure> "But going forward, he advises, researchers should pay more attention not to just what experiments they’re doing, but also to who’s doing the experiments" 16:11 <@kanzure> most log books keep track of that 16:12 <@kanzure> also, noting that there were males that handled the animals is not enough 16:12 <@kanzure> there should be a human odor assay 16:13 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:6d0e:689:c5bf:b040] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:13 <@kanzure> also, maybe there was a breakout of terrible deoderant choices by the male members of the lab, like everyone spontaneously switched to axe 16:13 < gradstudentbot> Don't phage me, bro. 16:14 < jrayhawk> the female presence canceling out the male presence would be quite the trick, there 16:14 < jrayhawk> maybe the females all switched to febreeze 16:14 <@kanzure> female effect could be another odor 16:15 <@kanzure> so it's not just males, but both genders 16:19 <@kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2935.html 16:19 <@kanzure> .title 16:19 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2935 16:19 < yoleaux> Olfactory exposure to males, including men, causes stress and related analgesia in rodents 16:19 -!- nmz787_i1 [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:20 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-tutgbmzjnpvukjcq] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:22 <@kanzure> http://xkcd.com/1361/ is pretty good (google announcement) 16:24 < eudoxia> i don't get it 16:24 < eudoxia> pls help 16:24 <@kanzure> everyone uses 8.8.8.8 16:24 <@kanzure> the funny part is the hover text 16:24 <@kanzure> alt="(joke here)" 16:25 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:bcd7:c307:acec:5a61] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:25 < jrayhawk> sometimes i use 4.2.2.2 16:25 < eudoxia> ah so the joke is they are shutting down everything except what everyone uses 16:26 <@kanzure> the joke is that most users aren't worried about google shutting things down 16:26 <@kanzure> except when the thing is closer to what they actually use from google 16:26 < gradstudentbot> Still haven't cured cancer. 16:26 <@kanzure> http://www.gwern.net/Google%20shutdowns 16:33 <@kanzure> i wonder if the government should be negotiating with academic publishers 16:33 <@kanzure> brazil looks like it might have a government organization doing most of the negotiation 16:33 <@kanzure> .title http://aoasg.org.au/addressing-the-double-dipping-charge/ 16:33 < yoleaux> Addressing the ‘double dipping’ charge 16:33 < ParahSailin> why is this shit colored at random 16:33 < ParahSailin> is this a mlp thing? 16:34 <@kanzure> he changes his text randomly to infuriate his readers, it's an experiment 16:34 < ParahSailin> success 16:35 < eudoxia> i thought it was some bullshit firefox bug 16:35 <@kanzure> nope, just gwernshit 16:37 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:37 < eudoxia> it could be worse, he could have one of those things that create a twitter/fb share button when you double-click a paragraph 16:37 < sheena> ebowden http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19971026&slug=2568406&fb_source=message 16:37 <@kanzure> and javascripy copy paste spam 16:38 <@kanzure> *javascript 16:38 < eudoxia> yeah, you've been running into that a lot lately 16:38 <@kanzure> sheena: odors effecting rat research, is there a human odor assay or what 16:38 <@kanzure> .title 16:38 < yoleaux> Hog Heaven: Pigs Learn Video Games 16:38 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:39 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:39 < sheena> kanzure: huh? 16:40 <@kanzure> earlier link was human odors messing up lab results because the critters smelled men 16:41 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-29-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: wow such dinnertime] 16:41 < sheena> i missed it 16:41 <@kanzure> http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/04/male-scent-may-compromise-biomedical-research or http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2935.html 16:41 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2935 16:44 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:44 < jrayhawk> http://www.macroevolution.net/ speaking of finding common ground with pigs, this is a fun read 16:44 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:48 < FourFire> " he changes his text randomly to infuriate his readers, it's an experiment" yep 16:49 < FourFire> ParahSailin, as far as I know gwern isn't into MLP btw 16:49 < ParahSailin> he talks about mlp fanfics all the time 16:50 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:50 < FourFire> he does? 16:50 < FourFire> more than me? 16:50 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:50 < FourFire> huh 16:50 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@80-15-15.connect.netcom.no] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 16:51 <@kanzure> hm 17:02 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:02 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.132.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:04 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-29-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:08 -!- xentrac [~kragen@panacea.canonical.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:08 -!- xentrac [~kragen@panacea.canonical.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:08 -!- nsh__ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:08 -!- nsh__ is now known as nsh 17:09 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:16 <@kanzure> http://hackaday.com/2013/08/18/tearing-down-an-ultrasound-machine-from-1963/ 17:16 <@kanzure> http://radioinaktivitat.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/siemens-echo-encephalograph-teardown/ 17:17 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18 <@kanzure> http://3d-babies.com/ does ultrasound of fetus and then 3d prints the baby 17:18 < eudoxia> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9Mbsr3gUQ 17:19 < eudoxia> .title 17:19 <@kanzure> .title 17:19 < yoleaux> Linda Belcher's Porcelain Babies 17:19 < yoleaux> Linda Belcher's Porcelain Babies 17:19 <@kanzure> bah 17:21 < catern> that's great 17:21 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:22 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:23 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:25 < nsh_> rly? 17:25 < nsh_> that's... creepy 17:25 <@kanzure> "we fill in the gaps with images of dead abortion matter" 17:26 <@kanzure> "it's sort of a post-modern art thing" 17:26 < jrayhawk> paperbot's libgen link for that doesn't actually work 17:27 < jrayhawk> is there a big lag-time on actually distributing these things to the libgen network 17:27 -!- nsh_ is now known as nsh 17:31 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:31 <@kanzure> as far as i know the libgen network does not synchronize with itself unless its operators fetch the latest torrent 17:32 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:32 <@kanzure> most of the time the libgen links don't work for me, they either 404 or there's a server connection error 17:33 <@kanzure> but other people say "yay" so i assume it's working for them 17:33 <@kanzure> i assume my isp had to block it or something 17:33 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:35 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.136.204] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:37 < ParahSailin> jrayhawk: its a simple matter of paperbot not doing a HEAD request to the predicted libgen url 17:37 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-29-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:38 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 17:38 -!- realzies [~pinky@unaffiliated/realazthat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:40 < jrayhawk> libgen seriously works off of torrents? 17:40 < jrayhawk> that's just horrifying 17:40 -!- Jaakko910 [~Jaakko@cpc13-newc15-2-0-cust64.16-2.cable.virginm.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:40 -!- Jaakko910 [~Jaakko@cpc13-newc15-2-0-cust64.16-2.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:41 < heath> i think that's to prevent censorship 17:41 < ParahSailin> no it doesnt 17:41 <@kanzure> it used to have torrents 17:41 < ParahSailin> there is mirroring of the main libgen.org by torrents 17:41 < heath> ah 17:42 < gradstudentbot> If I break my arm, do I still have to present tomorrow? 17:51 -!- cpopell is now known as cpopell`food 18:07 -!- Darius [~quassel@c-24-5-103-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:28 -!- nmz787_i1 [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:28 -!- cpopell`food is now known as cpopell 18:44 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:59 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:08 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:11 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:11 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:25 <@kanzure> "Demodex is a genus of tiny parasitic mites that live in or near hair follicles of mammals. Around 65 species of Demodex are known." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demodex 19:42 -!- nsh [~nsh@host217-43-193-31.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:09 < cyberman> like the mange 20:09 < cyberman> demodectic 20:09 < cyberman> i had that once 20:09 < cyberman> it was pbad 20:09 < entelechios> i wash my eyebrows with 99 percent alcohol 20:09 < entelechios> fuck the demodex 20:10 < cyberman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mange 20:11 < cyberman> Sarcoptes spp. burrow into skin, while Demodex spp. live in follicles. 20:12 < cyberman> sometimes i still itch 20:13 < gradstudentbot> I forgot to make a control group. 20:17 < fenn> when hunting the wily and cautious cyberian nerd, it helps to have a decoy to lure the nerd in. start by making typing noises on a portable keyboard, this will attract the nerd to your prepared trap. be sure to bait the trap well with a logic puzzle or fact display opportunity. when the nerd approaches the trap, pull the noose and the nerd is yours! 20:19 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19 < ebowden_> LOL 20:20 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:21 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:22 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@72.186.86.228] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:22 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@72.186.86.228] has quit [Changing host] 20:22 -!- Zhwazi [~Zhwazi@copyfree/contributor/Zhwazi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:24 <@kanzure> that sounds a lot like pokemon 20:25 -!- eridu [~eridu@gateway/tor-sasl/eridu] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 20:25 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 20:26 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:26 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:32 < catern> pull the noose? jeese 20:34 < fenn> kanzure: how about an ultrasonic "fog machine" or "flameless incense potpourri machine" that just happens to also display a dopper sonogram or the "incense" 20:35 < fenn> i mean come on, people can sell speed and we can't sell an imaging device? 20:41 <@kanzure> turkey carver sounds okay to me, or doggy vision is also good 20:41 <@kanzure> i've been pondering a set of rapid prototyping equipment for testing etc 20:41 <@kanzure> or, i mean, measurement 20:42 <@kanzure> i think pvdf might be the appropriate material for measurement 20:43 <@kanzure> "Piezoelectric panels made of PVDF are used on the Venetia Burney Student Dust Counter, a scientific instrument of the New Horizons space probe that measures dust density in the outer solar system." 20:43 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:55 <@kanzure> "Patients in Shire trials showed some unexplained nose and gum bleeding. Planned trials by Amgen Inc. and others were halted. Myostatin drugs got an "early blemish," says Dr. LeBrasseur. The new treatments work in a slightly different way. Hopes for Novartis's drug BYM338 are now high. Analysts estimate peak annual sales of $4.9 billion, according to a study compiled by consultancy Defined Health, cited by MorphoSys. J.P. Morgan analysts give ... 20:55 <@kanzure> ... an estimate off $3.4 billion." 20:55 <@kanzure> haha why is jp morgan making up estimates for myostatin inhibitor usage 20:55 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:58 <@kanzure> cpopell: hey let's work a scam, you feed them numbers, then they feed me money 20:59 < cpopell> probably figuring out what the market segmentation will be multiplied by number of people ine ach bin 20:59 <@kanzure> peak annual sales is nowhere near total market saturation i think 21:00 <@kanzure> if that's the extent of analysis that market research firms offer, i'm bored 21:00 < cpopell> looking at total cost of treatment for MD it's between 1-1.5B a year 21:00 < cpopell> don't bother with market research firms. 21:00 < cpopell> it sucks 21:00 < cpopell> there's a reason I'm trying to leave it 21:00 <@kanzure> i assume that "Defined Health" is one of those firms 21:00 <@kanzure> (from the quote) 21:00 < cpopell> Eh, if they do studies they're marginally better 21:00 <@kanzure> what do you mean studies 21:01 < justanotheruser> FDA is the death administration because they prevent life saving drugs from being on the market? 21:01 < cpopell> ie phone campaigns to call people in the focus group, focus groups in general via hospitals, talking to doctors, etc. 21:01 <@kanzure> haha focus groups. wow. okay. 21:01 < cpopell> I was low on the market analysis totem pole, mostly I synthesized and did qual, not quant 21:02 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: it's a much more systemic problem than that 21:02 <@kanzure> justanotheruser: it's not just drugs, but devices and food 21:03 < justanotheruser> kanzure: so what I said but applied to devices And food? 21:04 <@kanzure> not just life saving devices, food, drugs, but also non-life-saving items 21:05 < justanotheruser> I think at the most they should force products to be labeled with their warnings 21:05 <@kanzure> large amounts of regulatory process have the tendency to exceed the costs of testing, manufacturing, or programming of the actual artifacts 21:06 <@kanzure> i mean, the costs of acquiring regulatory approval 21:07 <@kanzure> hell, the fda even forces regulatory approval of medical-related iphone/android apps 21:09 < justanotheruser> What was that website that told you about your health risks based on a DNA sample? 21:09 <@kanzure> 23andme (but there are many others) 21:10 < justanotheruser> The FDA stopped them from making medical claims? 21:10 <@kanzure> i believe they required them to stop displaying information about single nucleotide polymorphisms 21:11 < justanotheruser> I wonder if congress/the president would allow services like them to make claims if they cited scientific papers 21:12 <@kanzure> they did cite papers 21:12 <@kanzure> now everyone just dumps the data from their 23andme results and cross-references against snpedia 21:12 <@kanzure> http://snpedia.com/index.php/SNPedia 21:12 < justanotheruser> Yes, but shouldn't that be sufficient to make medical claims? 21:13 <@kanzure> hah no, the fda is not based on reason 21:16 < justanotheruser> Which is why I'm hoping congress or the president will. I'm guessing you have the same opinion of them too though 21:17 <@kanzure> well, i'm not holding my breath on that front 21:20 <@kanzure> also it doesn't seem to be just about making claims, but also about offering anything to buy in the first place 21:21 <@kanzure> http://qz.com/167178/new-evidence-shows-the-fda-was-wrong-to-halt-23andme-testing/ 21:32 <@kanzure> "In its recent guidance on mobile health applications, the FDA left open the possibility that it will regulate as medical devices information-based products such as questionnaires that evaluate the risk of a heart attack or the plethora of fitness trackers that help people to follow their weight, body temperature, heart rate, sleep patterns and more. Many operate as stand­alone or companion software for predicting risks including the ... 21:32 <@kanzure> ... likelihood of sleep disorders, seizures or heart attacks. Downloads and installations of these applications are expected to grow from 156 million in 2012 to 248 million in 2017 (ref. 10)." 21:32 <@kanzure> what's next, regulating pedometers? 21:33 < jrayhawk> do pedometers make health claims? 21:33 <@kanzure> yes, they make claims regarding how many steps the body took 21:33 <@kanzure> stepping has been shown to have highly-health-relevant something something 21:33 <@kanzure> steps have been shown to be highly relevant to health 21:37 < jrayhawk> if that is a thing they say, they should probably stop saying it 21:37 <@kanzure> not saying it wont stop the fda from claiming it's a medical device 21:38 <@kanzure> wait, maybe it will 21:38 <@kanzure> "Hardware crypto devices are still "special", as well as non-COTS systems for foreign governments/militaries. Seagate's security dude claimed at RWC this year that NSA had threatened to ITARify their self encrypting devices if they allowed them to be used as engines for encrypting arbitrary data (to me and Perry Metzger, separately). IMO, this is likely bullshit." (rdl) 21:40 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:41 <@kanzure> geeze i hate reading export restriction lists 21:41 <@kanzure> http://www.international.gc.ca/controls-controles/about-a_propos/expor/guide-2011.aspx?lang=eng 21:41 <@kanzure> "Piezoelectric polymers and copolymers, made from vinylidene fluoride (CAS 75-38-7) materials, specified by 1-1.C.9.a., having all of the following: 1. In sheet or film form; and 2. With a thickness exceeding 200 μm;" 21:41 <@kanzure> that's.. fucking PVDF. 21:46 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:46 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure 21:49 < kanzure> i wonder if anyone is bothering to just block fda ip addresses 21:50 < kanzure> hrmm who do i know at the fda 21:51 -!- realzies [~pinky@unaffiliated/realazthat] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:52 < fenn> pvdf is export controlled? 21:52 < kanzure> in canada 21:52 < fenn> that's bizarre 21:53 < fenn> thickness exceeding 200um must have some specific context they are paranoid about 21:53 < kanzure> i doubt they even remember the original reasons for listing an item 21:53 < fenn> yeah there's like zero incentive for a government to un-ban something 21:53 < fenn> they make all their money by banning stuff 21:54 < fenn> a lot of the ridiculous ones are related to submarine warfare 21:54 < fenn> it doesn't make it any less ridiculous 21:54 < kanzure> pew pew 21:55 < fenn> towed acoustic hydrophone arrays.. come on 21:55 < superkuh> I've always wanted to make high energy density parallel plate capacitors out of it. 21:55 < superkuh> And by always I mean the last ~3 years. 21:55 < fenn> since the last full exchange of atoms in your body 21:56 < fenn> Processing equipment, specially designed for bottom or bay cable systems, having "user accessible programmability" and time or frequency domain processing and correlation, including spectral analysis, digital filtering and beamforming using Fast Fourier or other transforms or processes; 21:56 < kanzure> everyone should have the right to tow acoustic hydrophone arrays 21:56 < fenn> i agree 21:56 < kanzure> beamforming using fast fourier 21:57 < kanzure> watch out, these fuckers are dangerous 21:58 < fenn> this is a really long export control list 21:58 < gradstudentbot> That's the control group, right? 21:58 < fenn> the export control group 22:00 < kanzure> my next trick will be delinquentmebot 22:00 < fenn> how about a bot that finds interesting stuff related to what you're talking about 22:01 < kanzure> what's the right testing equipment for ultrasound stuff 22:01 < justanotheruser> fenn so a Google not? 22:01 < justanotheruser> *bot 22:01 < fenn> justanotheruser: i wish 22:01 < kanzure> probably just a log bot 22:01 < kanzure> .hplusroadmap PDMS 22:01 * kanzure pokes yoleaux 22:01 < kanzure> .swhack PDMS 22:01 < kanzure> huh. 22:01 < yoleaux> No result in past month for "pdms". 22:01 < kanzure> .swhack FDA 22:01 < yoleaux> 2014-04-24 23:16:34 $cock = gmtime(Time::HiRes::gettimeofday()); 22:02 < justanotheruser> Lol 22:02 < kanzure> well that's obviously wrong 22:02 < fenn> processing 22:03 < kanzure> http://www.opencircuits.com/Projects 22:03 < fenn> processing 22:04 < justanotheruser> I think the most useful bot for this channel would be undergradbot 22:05 < kanzure> a giant wiki page is the wrong way to organize open source hardware stuff 22:06 < fenn> 265 mentions of "PDMS" (case insensitive) including 41 links and 28 papers 22:06 < fenn> indexed search would be a lot faster, sheesh 22:07 < kanzure> i should convince david cary to show up in here 22:07 < fenn> get all the davidc's 22:08 < kanzure> what's the other one? 22:08 < fenn> then make them strip to their underwear and fight 22:08 < kanzure> i mean the ieee one 22:08 < fenn> david carne maybe 22:08 < kanzure> this one: http://david.carybros.com/html/ 22:09 < fenn> i was going to say david cary but it seemed too obvious 22:10 < fenn> he built a portable sonar imager? 22:10 < kanzure> i am bad at convincing people into irc 22:11 < kanzure> oh he's from eleitl's transhumantech list. hrm. 22:11 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:11 < fenn> We had a motor with a puck at the bottom. 22:11 < fenn> The puck listened for echoes and sent the echoes up on one set of wires 22:11 < fenn> and out to a sonar display. You could see echoes from fish and the bottom clearly. 22:12 < kanzure> dcary: hello, welcome to the eugen leitl fan club 22:12 < fenn> so davidc is the other one? or are they both dcary? 22:13 < fenn> welcome aboard matey 22:13 < fenn> topic of the day: canadian export control lists, phased array ultrasound, human hybrids 22:14 < fenn> i am just ahead of the big reveal, in which we learn what chimpanzees were crossed with 22:15 < fenn> (i have a good idea what the reveal will turn out to be though) 22:15 -!- Viper168__ [~Viper@node7.19.251.72.1dial.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:17 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:18 < fenn> "Obviously, if humans were the product of such a cross, then such crosses would, in fact, be possible." 22:18 < fenn> unless the other parent went extinct some time in the last 6 million years 22:19 < gradstudentbot> How many papers do you have published? 22:19 < kanzure> huh, only 8 left in stock http://www.amazon.com/ZAGG-FOLZKFLEXSLV-Zagg-ZAGGkeys-FLEX/dp/B00695OFE2 22:19 < kanzure> i wonder if i should grab them all 22:20 < fenn> jeez, and people get on my case for buying useless toys 22:20 < dcary> Thanks.B. Bishop invited me. 22:20 < kanzure> i've been keeping it in my pocket for a few months 22:20 < kanzure> well, a year or so 22:21 < kanzure> it is much faster to type on this than on the phone's screen 22:22 < dcary> kanzure: Honestly, this is the first time I've been on IRC in months. Apparently editing wiki has eaten all my IRC time recently. 22:22 < kanzure> your wiki pages look exactly like your old html pages http://david.carybros.com/html/future_history.html 22:22 < fenn> i just just got this micro usb keyboard for my nook, don't know if it will work yet http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006KS85EE/ 22:23 < kanzure> does it fit in your pocket? 22:23 < kanzure> maybe i should have custom tailored pants for keyboards 22:23 < fenn> no, it's about the size of a nook, plus 50% in the vertical dimension 22:23 < fenn> let me measure 22:24 < dcary> Yes. But the big difference between my huge, poorly-organized old html pages and my huge, poorly-organized new wiki pages is that *you* (or, in principle, other people) can make them better. 22:25 < kanzure> i want hardware to self-organize like software has so that i don't have to update 1000 pages of text 22:25 < kanzure> btw, re: lab equipment related open source hardware, you may be interested in openpcr 22:25 < kanzure> but from an implementation standpoint, you will not be interested in openpcr 22:27 < fenn> the active keyboard surface is 3.25 in by 8 inch and about 5mm thick, and the entire case weighs 290 grams but i'll probably throw most of it away 22:27 < kanzure> you switch between units like i switch between diapers 22:27 < fenn> the idea here is to have a lightweight solar powered laptop 22:28 < fenn> sorry i couldn't bring myself to type 3/16 inch 22:28 < fenn> but the keyboard is exactly 3.25 by 8 22:28 < kanzure> so is the right way to test ultrasound equipment to just make lots of hydrophones 22:29 < fenn> oh no i read it wrong, it's 3.125 22:31 < _archels> dcary: what's the URL to your wiki? 22:31 < kanzure> http://www.opencircuits.com/Projects 22:31 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:33 < kanzure> why is there FDA guidance on hydrophones sigh ftp://ftp.sni.technion.ac.il/events/bionorth/20.06.2011/4.pdf 22:34 < _archels> wow, that list looks pretty inclusive 22:34 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:35 < _archels> (in a euphemistic sense, like ambitious) 22:36 < kanzure> "The Holter monitor is named after physicist Norman J. Holter, who invented telemetric cardiac monitoring in 1949.[1] Clinical use started in the early 1960s.[1]" 22:37 < kanzure> geeze more than 10 years 22:38 < fenn> since it's a hybrid black and white mobile device, i christen it the zenook (zedonk = zebra x donkey): http://fennetic.net/irc/zenook_laptop.jpg 22:38 < fenn> also it runs debian and android 22:39 < kanzure> if you remove any more mass you will cease to exist 22:40 < fenn> i was going to remove whatever stiffener panels they use because the solar panels are quite stiff enough already 22:40 < fenn> i kinda hate the faux leather with coarse white stitches 22:41 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:43 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:43 < fenn> reload for better picture 22:43 < kanzure> it's worse 22:44 < dcary> 10 years sounds pretty bad, but it's better than the sad story of Ignaz Semmelweis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis ). 22:45 < kanzure> "In 1865, Semmelweis was committed to an asylum, where he died at age 47 after being beaten by the guards, only 14 days after he was committed." 22:45 < kanzure> well, at least he didn't die from a physician ignoring his idea? 22:46 < kanzure> "At this crucial stage, Semmelweis himself had published nothing. These and similar misinterpretations would continue to cloud discussions of his work throughout the century.[8]:56" 22:46 < delinquentme> is capillary gel electrophoresis the same as just plain old " gel electrophoresis "? 22:47 < dcary> So ... if Semmelweis had open-sourced everything, release early, release often, etc., maybe things would have turned out differently? 22:47 < kanzure> no, it uses a capillary instead of a bed 22:48 < kanzure> dcary: unlikely, they would have still disliked him, but who cares about being liked 22:49 < kanzure> i wonder if he had the hospital switch to not washing their hands, and then observed an increase/decrease in mortality 22:50 < fenn> tips for getting your scientific theory accepted: try to stay alive. avoid situations in which it is likely that you will be brutally murdered. 22:50 < kanzure> he would have been called a baby murderer for allowing the switch to occur, but again who cares about being liked if it is sufficient evidence 22:50 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtnzeskjlemojnfe] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:51 < fenn> the babies don't die, only the women 22:51 < kanzure> oh good 22:51 < fenn> and nobody cares about women so it's all right 22:51 < kanzure> i see 22:51 < kanzure> well, that complicates it 22:54 < fenn> dcary: there is a wiki for stuff ostensibly related to this channel but nobody contributes to it either: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ 22:54 < kanzure> expecting others to contribute is so far not a workable strategy 22:54 < dcary> "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -- Max Planck 22:54 < fenn> fortunately it is also a git repository so any downstream content can theoretically be merged back in 22:55 < kanzure> fenn: i've noticed that i have a harder time making new pages because of ontological paralysis 22:55 < fenn> tips for getting your scientific theory accepted: brutally murder all your opponents and raise their children as your own 22:55 < kanzure> fenn: and the horror of having 20,000 top-level files 22:56 < fenn> is there a way to use tags with ikiwiki? 22:56 < kanzure> [[]] works 22:56 < fenn> or document clustering (?) 22:56 < fenn> [[]] is just a link 22:56 < kanzure> what sort of tags do you want 22:57 < fenn> i mean content metadata tags, like "genetics" or "nootropics" 22:57 < kanzure> jrayhawk: ping 22:57 < fenn> just coming up with those two made me realize how ridiculous it is to expect anyone to follow a consistent system 22:57 < kanzure> yes.. or myself. 22:57 < fenn> s/anyone/everyone/ 22:58 < fenn> i recently sorted my papers and books directories.. i guess i ended up doing something like k-means (manually) 22:58 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:59 < kanzure> tagging might be okay if you don't have to always re-tag all 20,000 items 22:59 < fenn> you could get your classifier up and running by manually training it on a small tagged dataset 22:59 < fenn> future classifications would use those tags 22:59 < fenn> so the user sees tag names instead of 1 2 3 etc 23:00 < fenn> or you could do natural clustering and manually label each cluster 23:01 < kanzure> another option is a speed-tagging system 23:01 < fenn> it's not like we have a lot of stuff to label though 23:01 < kanzure> where you review a number of items rapidly and you decide if they need to be retagged 23:01 < fenn> isn't that just manual tagging? 23:01 < kanzure> and then some tagging freshness interval 23:01 < kanzure> well, the idea is to not suffer from tag decay 23:01 < fenn> i don't believe in tag decay 23:01 < kanzure> i am okay with tagging each item as i enter them, but eventually my tagging preferences will be shifting 23:02 < fenn> the beauty of the classifier idea is that the data you're classifying doesn't change 23:02 < fenn> also people can come up with their own labels 23:02 < kanzure> sure it does, you add data, that changes the data 23:03 < kanzure> and then you have to check all of the classifications that it did 23:03 < fenn> not with natural clustering 23:03 < kanzure> why 23:03 < fenn> your new data is either a member of an existing cluster, a new cluster, or an outlier 23:03 < kanzure> and if it gets the wrong existing cluster, then i have lots of crap to clean up? 23:04 < fenn> or maybe you are just wrong 23:04 < fenn> often i'll say "hey what's this doing here" and when i investigate it further it actually makes sense 23:04 < fenn> but the title was too clever or something 23:05 < gradstudentbot> That result wasn't repeatable. 23:05 < kanzure> i might accept a separation between my manual tags and the auto tags 23:06 < fenn> you could have tag namespaces, sure 23:06 < fenn> each user will come up with their own ontology anyway 23:07 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:07 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:09 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:09 < kanzure> what's the tagging db? neo4j? 23:09 < kanzure> or is that the graph one 23:10 < kanzure> mongodb or postgresql's json columns might be most appropriate 23:10 < gradstudentbot> I'm only doing this to get tenure. 23:10 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:11 < kanzure> welcome back 23:11 < fenn> why do you have to drag databases into it 23:11 < fenn> this is part of ikiwiki remember 23:11 < kanzure> because flat files are not good for managing millions of tags? 23:12 < fenn> say i rename a file, i want my tags to stay with the file, so it should be in the file 23:13 < kanzure> and how would you query the tag data? 23:13 < fenn> i dont know exactly how ikiwiki does its static html rendering, but it should update the tag index pages when new pages are added that contain that tag, etc 23:13 < kanzure> ikiwiki recompiles all html content i think on each receive 23:13 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:13 < fenn> all html? 23:13 < kanzure> into html 23:14 -!- Viper168__ [~Viper@node7.19.251.72.1dial.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:14 < fenn> i was expressing shock and disbelief 23:14 < kanzure> yeah i might be wrong, it might do dirty rendering 23:15 < fenn> so a thousand users with a thousand pages yields a million tag entries, i dont know if this is a problem or not 23:15 < kanzure> iirc swhack are the people who are supposed to have done magical tagging git wiki stuff 23:16 < fenn> if a user's tag overlaps a public (algorithmically generated) tag, should you maintain that information separately? or just drop the user tag 23:16 < kanzure> it is definitely in their department of esoteric wizardry 23:16 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:16 < fenn> .swhack natural cluster 23:16 < yoleaux> No result in past month for "natural cluster". 23:16 < fenn> .swhack git wiki 23:16 < yoleaux> No result in past month for "git wiki". 23:17 < kanzure> that's only past month, search logs through 2001 23:18 < dcary> All the wiki engines I know of based on distributed version control engines (including a couple based on git) are listed at http://oddwiki.org/odd/SoftwareBazaar/DistributedWiki . 23:18 < fenn> it's 2014 i shouldn't have to do this 23:19 < kanzure> dcary: so far ikiwiki seems to be the least awful 23:19 < fenn> startup infomercial idea: a laptop, that is also a cutting board! we'll be rich! 23:19 < kanzure> stick to your day job 23:19 < fenn> this is my day job 23:20 < kanzure> would you want to be involved in ultrasound things 23:20 < kanzure> by involved i mean with money 23:21 < fenn> i don't have a particularly good living/workspace situation at the moment 23:21 < kanzure> would you be interested in hijacking nathan's, or squating hacdc 23:21 < kanzure> squatting 23:21 < fenn> hacdc is like a church basement or something 23:21 < kanzure> so it's like the internet archive? 23:22 < fenn> not sure they even have full time access 23:22 < fenn> i've never been there 23:22 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-23-22-206-130.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:22 < fenn> i wouldn't mind living in portland 23:22 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-23-20-112-9.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:22 < fenn> i keep putting off looking at factor e farm in more detail 23:22 < kanzure> what detail have you not looked at 23:23 < fenn> what their criteria for accepting projects/people is 23:23 < dcary> Yes, I want to be involved in ultrasound things. 23:23 < fenn> dcary: that's what i meant to say 23:23 < kanzure> hm! okay. 23:23 < fenn> i want to shoot melta rays 23:24 < kanzure> distributed hardware development is finnicky 23:24 < kanzure> most people complain about it 23:24 < fenn> there are good reasons why it doesn't work 23:24 < kanzure> (not that i have anything against it) 23:24 < fenn> namely, we don't have yet a) a hardware compiler b) a hardware data format c) a theory of hardware compilers or data formats 23:25 < fenn> the result being you have to ship things around to guarantee interoperability 23:25 < fenn> or huge amounts of manual interface specifications 23:25 < fenn> which are usually wrong anyway 23:25 -!- nsh [~nsh@host217-43-193-31.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:27 < fenn> i have this feeling like i am forgetting something, like something is supposed to happen mid-2014 23:27 < dcary> We have the first steps in that direction: a) RepRap, b) KiCad, OpenSCAD, etc., c) T-diagrams. 23:27 < kanzure> so if telepresence is supposed to be good and working 23:27 < kanzure> then what about hiring low wage labor to walk around with streaming cameras and manipulate things with their hands for you 23:28 < fenn> telepresence is not good or common 23:28 < fenn> also, if i am understanding this, i am the low wage labor 23:28 < kanzure> hah what 23:28 < kanzure> telepresence doesn't work because you don't have manipulators on the other end that do anything interesting 23:29 < kanzure> why would you be streaming video to yourself if you are the one who wanted the stream? 23:29 < kanzure> i mean.. uh. 23:29 < fenn> i could think of a lot of reasons to do that 23:30 < kanzure> yes but not for the purpose of having someone else tell you what to poke 23:30 < fenn> actually, yes, for that very reason 23:30 < kanzure> debugging? 23:30 < fenn> instead of constantly going back and forth between a data sheet pinout and a circuit board, the video software overlays the pinouts on the video feed 23:30 < kanzure> and who is the person on the other end of the video stream? 23:30 < kanzure> i don't understand 23:31 < kanzure> this seems to be more about glasses and visualization 23:31 < fenn> an openCV instance and a pdf and some fancy OCR software 23:31 < kanzure> but my original comment was about not having to physically go to a remote lab 23:32 < fenn> so, uh, i just drive a remote controlled car around someone's lab and wreak havoc? 23:32 < kanzure> no, a remote controlled person 23:32 < fenn> or i could pester them with a drone 23:32 * fenn makes a whining mosquito noise 23:32 < kanzure> see, if we had an actually working robot, you could just have a robot there 23:32 < kanzure> but since nobody has an effective telepresence robot solution, why not just use a person? 23:32 < fenn> i've never seen anything even close to what you are describing 23:33 < kanzure> oh, there's lots of crap in silicon valley 23:33 < fenn> exactly 23:33 < kanzure> little projectors on wheels 23:33 < kanzure> "telepresence!" 23:33 < dcary> Some do technical support and debugging remote hardware with just an audio telephone link to a person at the other end. 23:33 < fenn> robonaut is probably the closest to what you are describing 23:33 < kanzure> no, http://singularityhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/mebot-telepresence-robot.jpg 23:33 < kanzure> anyway, that's obviously ineffective and useless 23:33 < kanzure> so why not a person? 23:35 < fenn> wtf duck duck go, none of these results contains my search string 23:35 < kanzure> dcary: that's interesting, but i'm curious why not add video 23:35 < kanzure> maybe this was established pre-video 23:35 < kanzure> fenn: in this imaginary scenario, you would be the remote person 23:36 < fenn> thanks to the magic of grep, i bring you this document: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/future/teleserve.html 23:37 < kanzure> that's a person only on one end 23:38 < fenn> also that movie "sleep seller" (i think) 23:39 < fenn> sleep dealer 23:39 < kanzure> swhack was not conducive tonight 23:39 < kanzure> xentrac: doesn't swag have a magical esoteric tagging/wiki contraption somewhere 23:39 < kanzure> *swhack 23:40 < dcary> Right. By existence proof, since the human at the end of the "technical support hotline" at many companies has been more-or-less successful at debugging remote hardware for decades (!) with only a (2-way) audio connection to a human who pokes at the hardware, therefore it is possible to do the same thing with the same setup after adding video. 23:41 < kanzure> existence proof is favorite proof 23:42 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:43 < xentrac> kanzure: not that I know of 23:44 < kanzure> xentrac: i feel like they aren't holding up their end of the bargain 23:44 < xentrac> ? 23:45 < fenn> i always thought "swhack" was just the noisebridge of freenode 23:45 < xentrac> ? 23:45 < fenn> a noisebridge is a circuit that injects noise into another circuit. it's also a hackerspace. 23:46 < kanzure> swhack is aaronsw's wu tang clan 23:46 < kanzure> killer beez 23:46 < fenn> it was always pretty random, orbiting around web software technologies 23:47 < fenn> in the strange attractor sense 23:47 < kanzure> .wik wu tang clan 23:47 < yoleaux> "The Wu-Tang Clan /ˈwuːtæŋ/ is an American hip hop group from New York City, originally composed of East Coast rappers RZA, GZA, Method Man, Raekwon, Ghostface Killah, Inspectah Deck, U-God, Masta Killa, and the late Ol' Dirty Bastard." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Tang_Clan 23:48 < xentrac> here I always thought it was /teiŋ/ 23:48 < kanzure> "They have introduced and launched the careers of affiliated artists and groups, often collectively known as the Wu-Tang Killa Bees,[1] and in 2008, About.com ranked them the No. 1 greatest hip hop group of all time, and stated "No weapon in hip-hop history can rival the chaotic cohesion of the Wu-Tang Clan. The Clan had so many characters, each with his own eccentricities. They were fearless in their approach. There's a good reason no group ... 23:48 < xentrac> so I'm trying to figure out when two-dimensional barrel cams appeared 23:48 < kanzure> ... has been able to successfully recreate their sound. The crew spawned countless loosely associated acts. Their classic albums spawned classic albums."[2] Kris Ex of Rolling Stone called Wu-Tang Clan "the best rap group ever."[3] In 2004, NME hailed them as one of the most influential groups of the last ten years.[4]" 23:49 < xentrac> they clearly were present by 1774 because the Writer is driven by a two-dimensional barrel cam (made of a stack of disc cams) from that date 23:49 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:51 < fenn> "de re mechanica" shows arrays of hammers driven by peg cams, that's pretty close right? 23:51 < xentrac> if the peg cam can slide axially, yes 23:51 < fenn> oh, i dont know what that would do 23:51 < xentrac> but can it? 23:52 < fenn> this was for smashing rocks i think 23:52 < fenn> to even out the torque load on a water wheel, they had to balance the force from the cams on a shaft 23:53 < xentrac> not really the same thing then 23:53 < fenn> i mean rotating them by phase so you end up approximating a helix 23:53 < xentrac> the Writer has a vector font encoded on the barrel cam 23:53 < fenn> links? 23:53 < xentrac> it slides axially to select the character, and then rotates to draw it 23:53 < xentrac> .g jaquet-droz writer 23:53 < yoleaux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaquet-Droz_automata 23:54 < fenn> oh i see, like a jukebox 23:54 < xentrac> hmm, I guess in a way? 23:54 < xentrac> in that the jukebox first selects a disc, and then reproduces that disk by spinning it? 23:54 < fenn> well, except the discs stay on the spindle 23:54 < xentrac> but this is sort of more like an LP record 23:55 < xentrac> where you select the song you want to play by positioning the needle radially 23:56 < fenn> i read about this recently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopen 23:56 < kanzure> there was also the parallelagram that jefferson or franklin used for not having to write the same document twice 23:57 < fenn> pantograph 23:57 < fenn> In 1804, Thomas Jefferson began using the device extensively.[5] This early device was known at the time as a polygraph (an abstracted version of the pantograph) and bears little resemblance to today's autopens in design or operation. 23:58 < fenn> you still have to actually sit down and use the machine though. an autopen can be operated by a secretary 23:58 < fenn> kinda dangerous i think 23:59 < gradstudentbot> You know, I can just do consulting. 23:59 < kanzure> wtf "Confidentiality is extremely important to autopen owners and most will not divulge whether they own one or not" 23:59 < fenn> donald rumsfeld used to send condolence letters signed by autopen to families of soldiers killed in iraq 23:59 < xentrac> the reason I'm interested in this is that it turns out that a barrel cam is sufficient for universal combinational logic 23:59 < fenn> like, "sorry for your loss from the war that i started, but not really" --- Log closed Tue Apr 29 00:00:12 2014