--- Log opened Tue Apr 29 00:00:12 2014 --- Day changed Tue Apr 29 2014 00:00 < kanzure> that's the same shit about vitalism/copy-paste signatures into hellosign.com or hellofax.com 00:00 < kanzure> "but if it is data, then it's not really real" 00:00 < kanzure> cam logic is more interesting 00:00 < fenn> but rumsfeld never even looked at the letter, and it was supposed to be an authentic human gesture (but it was not) 00:00 < xentrac> and it's really dramatically more efficient than things like Merkle gates or rod logic 00:01 < xentrac> in terms of parts, not energy consumption 00:01 < kanzure> .g merkle gates 00:01 < yoleaux> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2010-June/000919.html 00:01 < kanzure> oh come on 00:01 < fenn> lol 00:01 < xentrac> heh 00:01 < fenn> duck duck go fails completely 00:02 < xentrac> .g merkle buckling-spring gates 00:02 < yoleaux> http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2010-June/000919.html 00:02 < fenn> why can't google just offer a non-suck interface 00:02 < xentrac> if you think making a better search engine is so easy why don't you make your own? 00:03 < xentrac> it's really a lot easier than it was when Google got started 00:03 < fenn> they had a better search engine and then made it hard to use (in the name of making it easy to use) 00:03 < kanzure> focus 00:03 < xentrac> do you want to turn on Verbatim? 00:04 < fenn> i want verbatim, i want punctuation, i want html with links that point to the search result 00:04 < fenn> i want youtube addresses that aren't truncated with ellipsis 00:04 < kanzure> i also want a formal apology whenever it can't handle my regex 00:05 < xentrac> this sounds highly achievable, fenn 00:05 < xmj> from perl? 00:05 < fenn> sure regex would be nice, but i understand the reasons for not including it 00:05 < kanzure> regex could be off-loaded to long-term search 00:05 < kanzure> and results can come back in a week for all i care 00:05 < xentrac> RE2 removes some of them; recent work on compressed indexing might remove others 00:05 < xmj> [...] i want html with links that point to the search result 00:06 < xmj> not commercially viable 00:06 < xentrac> xmj: why does a search engine have to be commercially viable? 00:06 < fenn> isnt there a javascript "onclick" that they could use instead of fucking up the link? 00:06 < xentrac> kragen-tol isn't commercially viable either 00:06 < xentrac> but it still exists 00:08 < fenn> xentrac: there was a lot of discussion about microfluidic computers for controlling repraps, particularly with fluidic motors 00:08 < fenn> all that good old analog stuff 00:08 < xentrac> I had no idea, but it makes sense 00:08 < xmj> xentrac: you'll have to pay for infrastructure is why. 00:08 < xentrac> presumably they weren't talking about analog microfluidic computers though, right? 00:08 < fenn> much easier to make rubber than semiconductors 00:08 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:09 < xentrac> because nothing in fluidics is linear and barely anything is even monotonic 00:09 < fenn> you'd want analog circuits in the amplifiers and servo controller 00:09 < gradstudentbot> My project sucks. 00:09 < fenn> in fact, modern CNC machines still use analog tachometers 00:09 < xentrac> note that no current electronic RepRaps have servo controllers! 00:09 < fenn> meh 00:10 < xentrac> I agree about the amplifiers though 00:10 < fenn> really none? 00:10 < xentrac> none that I know of 00:10 < xentrac> certainly the Prusa Mendel in my office doesn't 00:10 < fenn> it's not that hard to put an encoder wheel on a hacked RC servo 00:11 < xentrac> it wasn't that long ago that inkjet printers were also servoless 00:11 < kanzure> there's also various bubble logic things for microfluidics 00:11 < fenn> there was speculation about the price of steppers going up once reprap became popular and the surplus dried up 00:11 < kanzure> by bubble logic i mean microbubbles, not anything that might be called bubble but not be about spherical microbubbles 00:11 < xentrac> current inkjets use these lovely optical servos 00:12 < xentrac> kanzure: right 00:12 < fenn> modern inkjet printers are really impressive 00:12 < fenn> it's like "bam bam bam here's your color printed page, kthxbye" 00:13 < xentrac> yeah. open3dp was doing a great job of turning that impressiveness into 3-D printers last I looked 00:13 < xentrac> which seems like a more promising direction than FDM to me 00:13 < kanzure> they all migrated to #dlp3dprinting or something 00:14 < kanzure> after #lemoncurry died 00:14 < kanzure> oh, sorry, wrong subtopic 00:14 < fenn> why did lemoncurry die? 00:14 < fenn> i am more interested in DLP these days 00:14 < kanzure> wasn't paying attention 00:14 < kanzure> superkuh might have been lurking 00:15 < kanzure> [Merkle 1990]: http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/mechano.html "Two Types of Mechanical Reversible Logic, by Ralph Merkle" 00:15 < fenn> i thought it fizzled once formlabs kickstarter distracted everyone, and then it was hurry up and wait 00:15 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/mechano.html 00:15 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9bfd8601a6f968bfad101d9d2bf9f27c.txt 00:15 < kanzure> xentrac: there are weird things from merkle in https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer 00:16 < kanzure> nanoengineer.git is somewhat of a recovery project so be prepared to be disappointed 00:16 < dcary> I have wondered for a long time: What non-transistor parts are sufficient for universal combinational logic? I'm pretty sure pneumatic-actuated pneumatic spool valves are universal. 00:16 < jrayhawk> those are a lot of words and i am not inclined to read them; there is a 'tag' plugin that can be set up such that [[!taglink poop]] will autocreate transient page at tags/poop/ with a rendering of [[!map pages="tagged(tiny)"]] 00:16 < xentrac> dcary: yes, but they don't have long enough cycle lives 00:16 < kanzure> jrayhawk: does ikiwiki recompute all pages when post-receive? 00:17 < jrayhawk> no, it recursively readdirs and stats stuff and checks to see if any of it's new, then builds a dependency tree 00:17 < fenn> jrayhawk: so !map will make an index list of tags? 00:17 < xentrac> dcary: SPST relays work fine too, and these days those run at 60kHz 00:17 < jrayhawk> Yeah. There's also an !inline directive. 00:17 < fenn> or just a list of pages with that tag 00:18 < kanzure> xentrac: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/tree/master/cad/partlib 00:18 < jrayhawk> [[!map pages="tag/* and ! tag/*/*"]] will list all tags 00:18 < kanzure> for someone who hates programming you sure do remember esoteric wikisyntax 00:18 < kanzure> oh this is probably because freedesktop.org stuff, huh 00:19 < jrayhawk> [[!map pages="tagged(tiny)"]] (or [[!map pages="link(tag/*)"]] ) will render a list of things with that tag 00:19 < fenn> "hates programming other people's requests" 00:19 < jrayhawk> i am looking most of this stuff 00:19 < xentrac> dcary: neon tubes probably also work, and are more reliable than relays or vacuum tubes, but they're probably slower than either one 00:19 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:19 < jrayhawk> because usually ikiwiki thinks about all this stuff for me 00:20 < fenn> jrayhawk: what does the (tiny) mean? 00:20 < xentrac> dcary: anything that can give you "majority rule", as Merkle points out in his paper 00:20 < jrayhawk> er, 'tagged(poop)' 00:20 < fenn> ok 00:20 < jrayhawk> and i meant link(tag/poop) 00:20 < jrayhawk> i am sorta distracted, sorry 00:20 < fenn> that was a good enough explanation for now 00:21 < xentrac> dcary: really I think a bigger challenge has typically been RAM, historically speaking 00:21 < jrayhawk> you may want to poke through https://ikiwiki.info/plugins/ and https://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/pagespec/ and https://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/directive/ 00:22 < xentrac> dcary: e.g. the LGP-30's combinational logic was noninverting diode-resistor logic, which would have worked fine up into the gigahertz 00:23 < fenn> xentrac: dcary: the selectron tube was a pretty nice way to scale up ram without transistors 00:23 < dcary> xentrac: Really 60 kHz? I was under the impression that people go to great effort to avoid "wearing out" a relay by buzzing it at 200 Hz. 00:23 < xentrac> but its flip-flops were pairs of vacuum tubes with switching times in the microseconds, and its spinning-drum RAM was a lot slower than that 00:23 < fenn> basically it's a CRT monitor with phosphor auto-refresh and screen state readout 00:25 < xentrac> dcary: yeah, reed relays are way up there in the tens of kHz. you do have to worry about contact arcing, but switching <<1kHz is not the only way to solve that 00:25 < xentrac> you can also use capacitors, for example 00:26 < xentrac> fenn: yeah, I know. I'm not totally clear on why core memory was so much better than the Selectron 00:26 < fenn> it was more compact and lower power? 00:27 < fenn> and vibration resistant 00:27 < xentrac> hmm 00:27 < xentrac> not convinced 00:27 < fenn> a lot of this stuff was being developed for ICBM guidance systems 00:27 < xentrac> core didn't get shuffled into an ICBM niche though 00:27 < xentrac> it took over the world 00:28 < xentrac> to the point that even today I occasionally get "core dumps" 00:28 < fenn> "The team was never able to produce a commercially viable form of Selectron before core memory became almost universal" 00:28 < fenn> and then they had DRAM after that(?) 00:29 < xentrac> yeah, DRAM is what killed core 00:29 < xentrac> well no 00:29 < xentrac> SRAM 00:29 < xentrac> but IC SRAM 00:29 < gradstudentbot> I don't know whether I am Turing dreaming that I am a machine, or a machine dreaming that I am Turing! 00:30 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectron_tube 00:30 < fenn> huh core is faster: "Magnetic-Core Storage has two big advantages: (1) greater reliability with a consequent reduction in maintenance time devoted to storage; (2) shorter access time (core access time is 9 microseconds: tube access time is approximately 25 microseconds) thus increasing the speed of computer operation." 00:30 < kanzure> "In the Williams tube, the electron gun at the back of an otherwise typical CRT is used to deposit a series of small patterns representing a 1 or 0 on the phosphor in a grid representing memory locations. To read the display, the beam scanned the tube again, this time set to a voltage very close to that of the secondary emission threshold. The patterns were selected to bias the tube very slightly positive or negative. When the stored static ... 00:31 < kanzure> ... electricity was added to the voltage of the beam, the total voltage either crossed the secondary emission threshold or didn't. If it crossed the threshold, a burst of electrons was released as the dot decayed. This burst was read capacitively on a metal plate placed just in front of the display side of the tube.[4]" 00:31 < xentrac> yep 00:32 -!- SolGr [~SolGr@c-50-166-90-49.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:33 < xentrac> anyway, so, compare any of these numbers 00:34 < xentrac> to the .001μs or so needed for a diode or resistor to settle into a steady state 00:34 -!- _Sol_ [SolGr@c-50-166-90-49.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:34 < xentrac> and you'll see that combinational logic was not the speed bottleneck at the time 00:35 < fenn> oh sure let's just skip straight to crossbar resistive ram 00:35 < xentrac> do you mean memristive? 00:35 < fenn> i guess 00:35 < xentrac> memristors turned out not to work 00:36 < fenn> "In 2013, Crossbar introduced a prototype of RRAM as a chip about the size of a postage stamp that can store 1 TB of data." 00:36 < xentrac> the new devices billed as "memristors" have nothing in common 00:36 < xentrac> not familiar with "RRAM" 00:36 < fenn> what do you mean "turned out not to work"? 00:36 < xentrac> I don't know 00:37 < fenn> Stan Williams of HP Labs has also argued that all ReRAM should be considered to be a memristor ... memristor theory in itself is open to question. There is an ongoing discussion whether or not redox-based resistively switching elements (ReRAM) are covered by the current memristor theory. 00:38 * fenn shrugs helplessly 00:38 < xentrac> yeah 00:38 < xentrac> night 00:39 * fenn waves 00:39 < dcary> A terabyte of data on a single chip? wow. 00:39 < fenn> dcary: delay line storage is pretty cool too 00:40 < fenn> anyway, theoretically all you need to do turing complete computation is two binary switchable elements 00:40 < fenn> this could be spin of atoms or electric circuits or whatever 00:41 < dcary> I hear some early delay lines sent ultrasonic pulses through some liquid -- which brings us back to the ultrasonic stuff we were discussing earlier. 00:41 < kanzure> this irc channel is just a giant phase array 00:41 < fenn> yes, that reminds me of the acoustic interferometer compass 00:42 < fenn> like a laser sagnac interferometer, but using ultrasound in a tube instead of a laser 00:42 < kanzure> fenn: relative feasibility of ultrasound stuff compared to dna synthesis microfluidic stuff? 00:42 < kanzure> i know the answer but i want to confirm 00:43 < fenn> i've never built either, how should i know? 00:43 < dcary> fenn: And some way to transmit the data from one element to the next. Quantum dots are all kinds of switchable, but I hear trying to get one dot to influence some other particular dot is tricky. 00:43 < kanzure> intuition 00:43 < kanzure> fermi estimation 00:43 < kanzure> pick your poison 00:43 < fenn> kanzure: well you don't have to make a thing before you can make another thing, so that's a plus 00:44 < fenn> honestly i'd be surprised if you can't just buy everything and assemble them with the manufacturer's instructions 00:44 < fenn> but i dont know about software, whether it's available or whether it's actually difficult to write or not 00:45 < kanzure> ultrasound software is everywhere 00:45 < fenn> O RLY 00:45 < fenn> i bet 90% of the machines all use the same firmware 00:46 < gradstudentbot> People have tried that, but it doesn't seem to work. 00:46 < kanzure> https://github.com/CSC301H-Fall2013/ultrasound-in-remote-maternal-healthcare 00:46 < fenn> not that it matters 00:46 < kanzure> https://github.com/MByteIO/Ultrasound.IO 00:47 < kanzure> one of the results is https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/.../transcranial-ultrasound.mdw...‎ 00:47 < gradstudentbot> Hey, let's write a paper about that. 00:47 < kanzure> dunno what the ellipses are but it's probably me 00:47 < fenn> i don't know any other github.com/kanzure's 00:48 < fenn> what is "pharmaceutical tablets with ultrasound"? 00:49 < kanzure> hrm well these are not the results i was expecting 00:49 < fenn> "problem: Create an off-the-line pill tester that can test pharmaceutical tablets for weight, thickness, and hardness." 00:49 < fenn> this does not sound like an imager 00:49 < kanzure> https://www.assembla.com/spaces/plus/wiki "Plus (Public software Library for UltraSound imaging research) is a software package containing library functions and applications for tracked ultrasound image acquisition, calibration, and processing." 00:49 < kanzure> "Image and pose data acquisition from a wide range of devices (Ultrasonix, BK ultrasound systems, various framegrabbers; Ascension, NDI, Claron, Phidget, CHRobotics pose tracking devices, any device with OpenIGTLink output)" 00:50 < kanzure> "Ultrasound image simulation: B-mode images are generated from multiple moving objects (such as bones, soft tissue, tools)" 00:50 < kanzure> huh "Automatic testing infrastructure, diagnostic tools, simulators for development and testing without having access to hardware devices" 00:50 < kanzure> oh :( "Fully supported on Windows 32 and 64 bit with VS2008, limited testing is performed with VS2010 and with gcc on Linux" 00:50 < fenn> i don't care about their framegrabbers 00:52 < fenn> that software might be useful down the line 00:52 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:52 < fenn> once we have a working imager 00:52 < kanzure> you're right, looks like it doesn't do processing of audio input directly https://www.assembla.com/code/plus/subversion/nodes/3299/trunk/PlusLib/src/DataCollection 00:52 < fenn> i'd expect all that to be done in the firmware on the sensor head 00:53 < fenn> with a DSP 00:53 < fenn> the DSP code is what i'm interested in 00:53 < kanzure> "Texas Instruments' Medical Imaging Demo Application Starter (MIDAS) illustrates the integration of key medical imaging algorithm modules on Texas Instruments (TI) Multicore DSPs and System-on-Chips." 00:54 < kanzure> https://gforge.ti.com/gf/project/med_ultrasound/ 00:54 < gradstudentbot> It's a social construct. 00:54 < kanzure> warez: https://gforge.ti.com/gf/project/med_ultrasound/frs/?action=FrsReleaseBrowse&frs_package_id=267 00:54 < fenn> now we're talking 00:55 < fenn> 461MB??? 00:55 < kanzure> says the guy who just downloaded 40 GB of wikipedia content 00:55 < fenn> yeah but it's wikipedia 00:55 < kanzure> download to gnusha if you'd like 00:55 < fenn> this is supposed to be code that runs on an embedded chip 00:55 < kanzure> probably other stuff in here 00:56 < fenn> _sdcard.tar.gz sounds like a linux image 00:58 < fenn> this is way better than anything i expected to find 00:58 < dcary> Given an array of ultrasonic transmitters, and an array of ultrasonic receivers -- would techniques previously used for MIMO networks, such as dirty paper coding http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/dirty_paper_coding , be useful for ultrasonic imaging? 00:59 < fenn> "All software is licensed under BSD" 01:01 < fenn> does this assume the receiver knows in advance what the pattern of dirt on the paper is? 01:02 < fenn> oh this is talking about multiplexing 01:03 < fenn> in that case, yes, it's very relevant to multiple transducer sonar 01:04 < fenn> simple wikipedia is missing a lot of articles 01:05 < dcary> Right, the receiver doesn't know in advance. 01:05 < fenn> you'd think they would provide a link on the "create page" page to regular english wikipedia 01:10 < fenn> wow there is a lot here on the TI pages 01:12 < dcary> Right. But still, occasionally simple wikipedia has an article that (in my opinion) is significantly better than the corresponding english wikipedia page. I suspect the same is true for any two randomly-selected wikipedia languages. 01:14 < fenn> oh good http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V links to http://www.xkcd.com/1133/ 01:14 < dcary> wow, that does look like a lot of useful stuff on the TI pages. 01:15 < fenn> white papers and application notes http://www.ti.com/tool/s2meddus 01:16 -!- dlfk [~dlfk@chem-179-154.chem.tamu.edu] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 01:16 < fenn> i think i need to lay down and rest for a while before scaling this mountain of documents 01:18 < dcary> it's been fun. goodnight, everyone. 01:23 < fenn> hope to see you around dcary 01:23 -!- dcary [46b171ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.177.113.174] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 01:37 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:51 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@188.90.186.170] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:54 < fenn> a legitimate consumer use for ultrasound imaging would be a VR "glovebox" for high impedance tactile/haptic feedback 01:55 < fenn> so there's a box with rubber gloves you stick your hands through, and the device can see your hands and push on them in various patterns with focused ultrasound beams, simulating whatever in the VR environment at a high rate and closed loop 01:56 < fenn> or maybe it's a sphere or an egg or an octahedron 01:57 < fenn> it also has a 3d display "window" on front so you can see what you're feeling 01:57 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.93.17] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:57 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@95.5.93.17] has quit [Changing host] 01:57 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:58 < fenn> i'm also interested in free-air haptic ultrasound but i suspect the mechanics will be quite a bit different 01:59 < mosasaur> xmj: It's the numbers, they can't resist them. Nor can they resist the conviction that a primitive overseer who is barely metaconscious but equipped with various chemical sledgehammers can whack people quite unlike them back into shape. 02:03 < xmj> ? 02:04 < mosasaur> ah. xmj: that was still in response to your question about nerd-baiting. 02:05 < fenn> here is a concept i was obsessing about last month: http://fennetic.net/irc/holo_tank.jpg 02:10 < xmj> mosasaur: ah. 02:16 < fenn> mosasaur: that primitive barely metaconscious overseer is called physical reality 02:16 < fenn> i have faith that reality exists 02:19 -!- nsh [~nsh@host86-158-32-149.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:21 < mosasaur> fenn: Over here that physical reality takes the form of psychiatrists that are hiding unobtrusively when one is forced to undergo psychological testing by welfare institutions. Next they try to take your case unbidden or not. One has to fend them off. 02:30 < xmj> meh, pshrinks 02:30 < xmj> they're all nutcases themselves 02:30 < xmj> mosasaur: which institutions _force_ you to undergo psych testing? 02:32 < mosasaur> Well, if you'd rather survive without any money, it's technically not force, but in practice it comes down to the same. 02:32 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jtnzeskjlemojnfe] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:39 < xmj> relevant question is which institutions and for what 02:46 < mosasaur> If you have no money you are assigned an overseer, if you don't like that person you are out of luck. Those who protest against this state of affairs are obviously crazy and must undergo psychological testing, so hidden psychiatrists can go on a wild duck hunt to deligitimize them. I hope it's all clear now. 02:48 < mosasaur> And I'm even one of the lucky ones because at least I can control my own money after they give it to me. 02:51 < mosasaur> This is standard practice for all people who receive welfare here. I'm not a special case or anything, except for questioning the legality of it of course. 02:53 < mosasaur> Here's some further reading for as to why I'd like to avoid unnecessary labeling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7663857 02:53 < gradstudentbot> Do you have references for that? 02:54 < mosasaur> Mind you, I don't even think I have that, but just being associated with the label can be dangerous. 02:54 -!- nsh [~nsh@host86-158-32-149.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:54 < xmj> 12:46:21 < mosasaur> If you have no money you are assigned an overseer 02:55 < xmj> you're still missing the important part: by whom (which institution), in which country? 02:56 < mosasaur> dutch welfare, but there's similar in most of europe 02:56 < xmj> ah 02:56 < mosasaur> although I'm not sure in all those countries everyone is assigned a contact person they cannot change 02:57 < xmj> mosasaur: i'm a diagnozed crazy, and you have to be smart about it 02:57 < xmj> i'll do whatever it takes to hide my craziness from people I don't want to show it to. 02:57 < xmj> especially government institutions and government-socialized health care 03:00 < gradstudentbot> Oh man, that's a great scrabble word. I got to write that down. 03:00 < mosasaur> xmj: I can only wonder at your reaction at reading these strange Americans advising people to seek help for their mental illnesses 03:05 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:06 -!- nsh [~nsh@host81-147-57-137.range81-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 03:13 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:20 < xmj> mosasaur: ah, well 03:20 < xmj> mosasaur: nothing wrong with seeking help, and in my particular circumstance it improves my life quality to 'just fucking live with it' 03:20 < xmj> without (or with different sorts of) state-approved medication 03:21 < gradstudentbot> Wasn't that a Nature paper? 03:23 < mosasaur> Nothing wrong with seeking help in some cases, I was just curious about the different kind of attitudes about seeking help in the USA versus for example in Europe. 03:25 < xmj> oh, no 03:25 < xmj> that's got nothing to do with US<>EU 03:25 < xmj> that's more of a Me<>Everyone else :-) 03:25 < xmj> mosasaur: i've noticed that the medication i'd be supposed to take makes me and my life boring, predictable and less fun. 03:26 < gradstudentbot> Did you order the carbon nanotubes yet? 03:26 < xmj> which is a sufficient reason for me not to consider this. 03:26 < xmj> gradstudentbot: shut the fuck up 03:26 < gradstudentbot> Do I have to go through the IRB for that? 03:33 < mosasaur> I had a girlfriend on lithium once, it seems she couldn't care less if I visited her or not, though she seemed to appreciate it once I was there. It drove me crazy, but asking her to go back to her life of terror from before seemed cruel so I gave up on her. 03:37 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:39 < fenn> mosasaur: to be clear, my "seek therapy" yesterday was a joke. i don't believe therapy is particularly helpful for most people compared to just talking to another human being 03:41 < fenn> the universe doesn't care if you've "followed the rules" or not; if your biochemistry gets too far out of whack, you die. 03:41 < mosasaur> OK then fenn, I had you figured as somehow being employed in a medical profession. 03:41 < fenn> i've studied psychiatry in an attempt to figure out my own problems 03:42 < mosasaur> By the way, why not use an oculus rift instead of your sensory deprivation tank 03:42 < gradstudentbot> Where did all my bands go? 03:43 < mosasaur> fenn: same here, although it was social psychology and the problem was I was advised not to study physics. 03:43 < fenn> because 1) it's hard to sleep with something strapped to your face, and 2) it doesn't isolate you from sounds in the environment, and 3) 03:45 < fenn> vr glasses are obviously much easier to manufacture and transport 03:45 < fenn> i don't really have a good answer 03:47 < fenn> http://www.mangahere.com/manga/sidonia_no_kishi/v01/c001/6.html click 03:49 < mosasaur> quite different from suske&wiske 03:50 < mosasaur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_and_Suzy 03:51 < fenn> knights of cydonia actually has a plot, unlike "Blame!" 03:51 < fenn> i don't know if this is a good or bad thing 04:00 < mosasaur> My main problem with psychiatry and, to a lesser degree, psychology is I define intelligence as the ability to consciously self-modify. So theoretically a person (more advanced than me) could swallow an LSD trip and just compensate. 04:01 < fenn> sure, coping skills generalize somewhat 04:01 < gradstudentbot> The culture got contaminated. 04:01 < fenn> the culture was a mind virus 04:02 < mosasaur> it's supposed to be a bit more meta-conscious than coping 04:02 < fenn> the problem with LSD is you get too meta, everything becomes super meta 04:03 < mosasaur> not if one knows that and can compensate (theoretically) 04:04 < mosasaur> I mean everyone who read Carlos Castaneda knows at least that 04:04 < fenn> i never read carlos castaneda (nor am i interested) 04:05 < mosasaur> It's probably worse for your mental health than studying psychiatry 04:05 < fenn> oh what a dick, he named his stupid pseudoreligion "tensegrity" 04:06 < mosasaur> I compare it a bit with reading Ayn Rand, although I never read her 04:07 < fenn> another dick, named her stupid pseudoreligion "objectivism" 04:07 < mosasaur> As in crazy things young people read and become enthusiastic about 04:07 < fenn> i like "tensegrity" (architecture, engineering) and "objectivity" (science, empiricism) 04:08 < fenn> but what the hell does selfishness have to do with objectivity? 04:09 < mosasaur> to be honest the tensegrity thing was a late development, something like Blair giving colleges after not being prime minister anymore 04:11 < mosasaur> Doesn't objectivism have the same roots as libertarianism, that greed is good? 04:12 < fenn> my understanding of libertarianism is that people should be left alone if they want to be, not "greed is good" 04:13 < mosasaur> no market driven by desire? 04:14 < fenn> Moby Thesaurus words for "libertarian": free lance, free spirit, free trader, freethinker, freethinking, independent, individualist, isolationist, latitudinarian, liberal, liberalist, liberalistic, libertine, mugwump, neutral, nonpartisan, open-minded, rugged individualist, third force, third world, tolerant, unbigoted 04:14 < mosasaur> In my understanding libertarians want to be left alone so they can compete 04:16 < mosasaur> how is a libertarian supposed to make any money, I mean assuming they're still Americans and money is everything for them 04:16 < fenn> "While some libertarians advocate laissez-faire capitalism and private property rights, such as in land and natural resources, others wish to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production in favor of common or cooperative ownership and management" 04:17 < mosasaur> What's going on over there, have the Russians invaded? 04:17 < fenn> i plead the fifth 04:35 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@154-154-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:43 -!- Adifex is now known as Adifex|zzz 04:55 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@host81-147-57-137.range81-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:56 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 04:59 -!- nsh [~nsh@host81-147-57-137.range81-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:59 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:00 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@host81-147-57-137.range81-147.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 05:00 -!- nsh_ [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:00 -!- nsh_ is now known as nsh 05:03 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:08 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:13 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:13 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:15 -!- kuldeepdhaka [~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka] has quit [Client Quit] 05:37 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:59 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-238-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:08 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:11 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:23 -!- pad2 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:25 -!- pad2 [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:28 -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 06:46 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:53 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:58 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:58 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:07 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:19 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:21 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:27 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 07:41 < delinquentme> 29 Apr 1:30pm Bryan Bishop Radio personality and author 07:49 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:54 < mosasaur> For the love of god, if you have a bright kid, don't allow it to be tested by some stupid quack that will destroy its future 07:57 < gradstudentbot> Dude, you contaminated my experiment. 08:03 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:08 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:08 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 08:08 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:15 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:18 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:20 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wqvsmheqmgwxeglb] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:27 < kanzure> free-air haptic ultrasound wont suffer from unintentional waves? 08:33 < kanzure> "Hi Bryan. Hope your doing well. Thank you for the wonderful work you have done this far on the python wmi wrapper." what a weird combination of words 08:34 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm113.kappa36.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:34 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm113.kappa36.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 08:34 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:34 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35 < kanzure> _archels: http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/courses 08:35 < kanzure> http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/static/courses/2008/course.zip 08:43 < kanzure> "I might take you up on your offer to help fund Lymnaea research. The critters are not yet big and numerous enough for that though." 08:43 < kanzure> "Hi Bryan, I am more interested in drugs and chemicals that may have life extension effects. I already have a large list of such on the development wiki for my Live120Plus project and there will be an entire regimen section of the finished project devoted to the optimal dosages and administration of such chemicals. What we have not yet had time for is to do the necessary research to validate the use of these chemicals and drugs and to decide ... 08:44 < kanzure> ... on their optimal use, if at all. For those that we find to be of great value for health and life span extension we plan to develop sources for them for use by the clients of Live120Plus. If we could only get more salaried and invested, scientific literature researchers to join our team, then we could get this and everything else in the Live120Plus project done much more quickly. If anyone is interested please see the summary info at ... 08:44 < kanzure> ... http://live120plus.com " 08:46 < kanzure> eleitl wants http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Apex-Explorer-Plus-Microscope/dp/B001BS00KK/ 08:46 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 08:53 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-gjvmfxcfhhsunjus] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:59 < eudoxia> assuming those two paragraphs are from eleitl, i wonder why he's not listed at the who we are page 09:00 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:07 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-gjvmfxcfhhsunjus] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:09 < kanzure> the "Hi Bryan" paragraph is not him 09:09 < eudoxia> ah 09:10 < eudoxia> i assumed the one about snails was him because he's been talking about cryopreserving them, and just assumed the rest were him too 09:10 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:21 < fenn> all beam forming methods produce side lobes (harmonics) but the effects can be minimized with multiple arrays at different angles 09:22 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:23 < fenn> the other idea i had today was to fill the entire pod with water, perhaps with a sheet of loose flexible plastic over your body so you don't get wet but are still free to move around between the two bodies of water 09:24 < fenn> this necessitates wearing some kind of breathing mask unfortunately, but the coupling is much higher 09:24 < chris_99> talking about some kind of floatation tank? 09:24 < fenn> yes http://fennetic.net/irc/holo_tank.jpg 09:25 < eudoxia> wow i wish i could write intelligibly 09:26 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=30a42206 DavidCary: linkfix, etc. 09:26 < fenn> mosasaur: the other reason not to use an oculus rift is that getting the VR software right is difficult. if you watch carmack's video about rendering latency you begin to understand just how difficult it is to get right 09:27 < _archels> kanzure: Ted Carnevale charges $1600 for participation 09:27 < _archels> I don't think my prof is going to cough that up 09:27 < gradstudentbot> I think there's a biobrick for that. 09:29 < mosasaur> fenn: I agree, and I'm also very disappointed with the project now being appropriated by facebook. However I still think that head tracking combined with audiovisual feedback is more important than tactile stimuli for reality simulations. 09:29 -!- SolGr is now known as _sol_ 09:29 < _archels> one of our interns might like that course materials zip though, thanks for the link 09:29 < kanzure> _archels: i may be willing to cover that 09:30 < chris_99> fenn, what's this tank for, sensory deprevation? 09:30 < fenn> mosasaur: i'm less interested in reality simulations than cad interface and robot teleoperation 09:30 -!- heath [quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 09:31 -!- heath [quassel@unaffiliated/ybit] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:31 < kanzure> WHY do i have to buy eleitl a microscope? how the heck does he not have one. 09:31 < kanzure> maybe i should tell him to just squint 09:32 < xentrac> maybe you can get him a Foldscope 09:32 < fenn> chris_99: sleep, programming, VR, oxygen modulation, air conditioning, other uses i haven't thought of 09:32 < kanzure> .g foldscope 09:32 < yoleaux> http://www.foldscope.com/ 09:32 < _archels> kanzure: what do you want to get out of it? 09:33 < fenn> he doesn't have a microscope? 09:33 < kanzure> _archels: someone who knows neuron 09:33 < kanzure> _archels: possibly also stalking 09:33 < _archels> haha 09:34 < kanzure> afaict there's not much better than neuron out there 09:34 < fenn> i had a dissection scope, i forget what happened to it (long gone now) 09:34 < kanzure> it was stored under your time travel watch 09:34 < fenn> we had two or three at langton 09:35 < fenn> tristan kept bioluminescent dinoflagellates under his bed, they're pretty cool to watch through the scope 09:36 < kanzure> my biology teacher in highschool would play hours of protozoan microscopy videos on the teleivsion when he didn't want to teach 09:37 < fenn> relevant music video http://youtube.com/watch?v=OlleM0sU7yg 09:37 < kanzure> .title 09:37 < yoleaux> Eskmo - Lands and Bones 09:37 < fenn> oops wait 09:37 < fenn> this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=lCmbwSCYF9o 09:37 < kanzure> .title 09:37 < yoleaux> ESKMO - We Have Invisible Friends 09:38 < kanzure> maybe when i get home or off the phone 09:39 < fenn> watching this on ginkgo + cha thai (thai iced tea) made me realize that the combination was somewhat psychotropic 09:40 < mosasaur> fenn: 3D spatial orientation via stereo auditory and visual cues combined with head tracking trumps all other sensory feedback. Tactile is just a nice to have thing, although balance info would be relatively quite important. 09:41 < kanzure> i think you claim tactile is nice to have because there has never been a very good tactile interface ever 09:41 < kanzure> braille displays do not count for much 09:44 < xentrac> most interfaces are tactile, and they are excellent 09:45 < kanzure> i was thinking in terms of input 09:45 < kanzure> input, feed me input 09:45 < xentrac> I'm somewhat traumatized right now from having a tactile interface on Sunday night with an aggressive drunk 09:45 < mosasaur> it certainly would be important to feel the weight of a thing and to know how it balances in your "hand", also info about its temperature and its surface structure 09:45 < fenn> mosasaur: it's the head tracking that's hard to do right. you need less than 100ms latency or you develop simulator sickness, and less than 50ms latency in a rendering pipeline is extremely difficult to do 09:45 < kanzure> do you want to talk about it? 09:46 < xentrac> when he threatened to hit me in the head with his wine bottle, I took the initiative and smashed it over his head 09:46 < xentrac> instead 09:46 < xentrac> long story short, the police arrested and charged him and not me 09:47 < xentrac> but not before he tactilely interfaced his fist with my temple 09:47 < xentrac> I should probably just post to kragen-journal 09:47 < kanzure> do you think there is damage 09:48 < xentrac> I don't think he hit me hard enough to cause damage. I might have hit him hard enough to cause damage but the medics didn't think so 09:48 < cluckj> kanzure, someone is using your BTC idea: http://bitcoin.mit.edu/announcing-the-mit-bitcoin-project/ 09:48 < fenn> what's the protocol for post-concussion treatment 09:49 < kanzure> im sure it involves holding up fingers :0~ 09:49 < fenn> "walk it off" is the opposite of what i want 09:49 < cluckj> going to the hospital 09:49 < fenn> yeah but what do they do in the hospital 09:49 < cluckj> scan your dome and tell you if you have a concussion 09:49 < fenn> but if you already know you have a concussion then what 09:50 < xentrac> cluckj: what, they give you an MRI to tell if you have a concussion? 09:50 < kanzure> i think they have to give an MRI otherwise they might miss fluid buildup etc 09:50 < xentrac> I hit him hard enough to smash the bottle into small fragments and knock him over sideways 09:50 < xentrac> even though he was already sitting on the ground 09:50 < gradstudentbot> Who took my stethoscope? 09:51 < cluckj> they can probably tell from the symptoms but if you're not presenting, they would probably do an MRI or x-ray 09:51 < xentrac> I took the opportunity to jump on top of him and tactilely interface with him a bit more 09:51 < cluckj> lol 09:52 < kanzure> xentrac, what about automatic design of those automata with echanical software-whatever. i dont know the right words here. but presumably, something something software translation? 09:52 < xentrac> which kind of automata? 09:52 < eudoxia> this channel has public logs, for counsel's sake 09:52 < kanzure> the peg logic 09:52 < kanzure> cam logic? 09:52 < cluckj> do you have any dizziness, blurry vision or nausea after getting hit in the head? 09:52 < xentrac> eudoxia: yeah, I've already told the police all of this in great detail over and over again 09:52 < xentrac> cluckj: no 09:52 < cluckj> you're probably fine 09:53 < xentrac> yeah, I'm more worried about him 09:53 < kanzure> next time on irc m.d. 09:53 < eudoxia> are skull fractures painful 09:53 < kanzure> dr. cluck diagnoses someone as "probably fine" 09:53 < kanzure> loses his license to practice IRC medicine 09:53 < chris_99> haha 09:53 < cluckj> hahaha 09:53 < eudoxia> lol 09:53 < fenn> disney made some kind of four bar linkage cad program for stop motion stuff 09:53 < xentrac> yeah, although it's not just stopmotion 09:54 < xentrac> you get these very nice naturalistic automaton motions 09:54 < fenn> and disneyland :) 09:54 < xentrac> so are you talking about designing automata to make particular movements with cams? 09:54 < xentrac> there is a lot of cam design software out there 09:55 < kanzure> if i can convert jpeg into an asic, why not into a mechanical something 09:55 < fenn> jpeg2asic.exe lol 09:55 < cluckj> ^ 09:56 < xentrac> but cams are simple enough that you can do that without software 09:56 < xentrac> .g youtube jaquet-droz draughtsman 09:56 < yoleaux> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvFnFJp3iw4 09:56 < fenn> i need that for my command line 09:58 < fenn> google whatever -n 50 | grep -a2 stuff 09:58 < mosasaur> fenn: you probably need a force feedback exoskeleton to go with the oculus 09:58 < kanzure> googlecl 09:58 < xentrac> the Jaquet-Droz Draughtsman is driven by cams generated from an image 09:58 < fenn> the gpu accelerated search engine 09:59 < fenn> mosasaur: i have thought extensively on the subject 09:59 < kanzure> oh sorry, i meant jpeg encoding/decoding 09:59 < kanzure> into an asic 09:59 < kanzure> i was trying to imply software to asic 09:59 < xentrac> oh, heh 09:59 < xentrac> I was trying to figure out why you wanted to represent an image as a lithography mask 10:00 < fenn> mosasaur: vestibular stimulation lets you hack the sense of gravity 10:00 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_Vestibular_Stimulation 10:01 < xentrac> RTL-to-cams should be pretty straightforward but I don't think anybody's done it 10:01 < xentrac> and you can generate the RTL from VHDL or Verilog or SystemC or whatever 10:02 < kanzure> i should convince matt campbell to do that 10:03 < xentrac> you need to divide the combinational parts up into pieces that are small enough for the LUTs you have available 10:03 < xentrac> but that's what FPGA synthesis does anyway 10:03 < xentrac> just slightly smaller LUTs 10:03 < kanzure> i showed you the automated gear train synthesis stuff, right? 10:03 < xentrac> yes 10:03 < xentrac> I have read only part of the thesis so far 10:05 < kanzure> i coerced fenn into working in that guy's labb 10:05 < kanzure> lab 10:05 < mosasaur> fenn: this could probably be done with non-invasive ultrasound tweezers tickling the hairs in the semi-circular channels 10:05 < fenn> you also coerced him into paying me to work on my own software, so that was pretty cool 10:06 < kanzure> he might hate me 10:06 < kanzure> haven't figured it out 10:06 < kanzure> probably something about "it is inconvenient for me for you to have dropped out" 10:07 < fenn> i think it was the hosting copyrighted stuff on serveftp.org and getting him in trouble 10:07 < kanzure> i remember he expressed concerns once but i don't remember any trouble 10:08 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-238-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:08 < superkuh> mosasaur, you can find more references http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Neuroscience/Vestibular%20Stimulation/ . And there once was a company hoping to commercialize the tech for games but they never shipped: https://web.archive.org/web/19990428003914/http://www.vm3.com/ , http://old.post-gazette.com/businessnews/19980823games4.asp 10:10 < fenn> superkuh: is it possible to simulate gravity in all directions (up down left right front back) or only bias left-right? 10:10 < mosasaur> hi, nice to see you speaking up here superkuh 10:10 < superkuh> It is theoretically possible for all directions. The electrical biases and combinations are in some of those docs. I only ever managed left-right with my experiments. 10:13 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-238-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:15 < fenn> i have this idea for exoskeletons in general, that your proprioception system doesn't care about absolute movement but rather relative movement, so you don't actually need to swing your arm a full 180 degrees (and all the required mechanics and free space to do that) just 90 degrees or maybe even less 10:16 < fenn> the wh40k "dreadnought" has the pilot in a fetal position; that's probably a bit extreme, but it's hard to deal with a full range of motion 10:17 < fenn> you want something like the nasa gravity couch pose: knees and hips bent, arms floating in front of the chest 10:19 < mosasaur> superkuh: that last link at the http://old.post-gazette.com made it most clear to me what was going on. Now I am wondering if it can be combined with transcranial direct current stimulation and binaural beats for brainwave entrainment. 10:20 < fenn> http://cache.relaxtheback.com/media/content/images/Zero_Gravity_image.jpg 10:20 < superkuh> Bleh. "entrainment" 10:20 < superkuh> I do not believe in binaural beats or entrainment. 10:20 < superkuh> I don't think TMS would be useful in this context. 10:21 < fenn> it is technically tDCS 10:21 < mosasaur> not magnetic, but direct current, because that other device already has that available 10:22 < superkuh> Oh. I misread. Sorry. 10:23 < fenn> i'm impressed that article from the post-gazette is still online, 16 years later 10:25 < mosasaur> still, now we have ultrasonic tweezers ... 10:28 < fenn> yeah it might be feasible but GVS is a lot simpler 10:29 < fenn> i'd be concerned about killing the ear cells, and unintended vibrations in the cochlea 10:32 < mosasaur> we'd project a 3d sonar image over the whole volume and kill a lot of birds with that, like balance and auditory simultaneously 10:33 < fenn> "The pilot himself survives only as a tightly curled and shrivelled organic component deep inside the Dreadnought, which is at once his reborn body and his tomb. Sustained and kept alive within the sarcophagus, the link between his physical being and the Dreadnought’s systems is absolute and for the remainder of his life." 10:33 < fenn> who comes up with this stuff 10:37 -!- dlfk [~dlfk@chem-179-154.chem.tamu.edu] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:39 < mosasaur> those vibrations in the cochlea are feature, not a bug. It would be like hearing sound when there is no sound, only ultrasound tickling the hairs, the same goes for the hemi circular channels. and all of this in a single continuously update sonar image. Do you need more marketing talk 10:41 * mosasaur notices it's probably time to disconnect 10:47 -!- mosasaur [~mosasaur@188.90.186.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:49 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:53 -!- nmz787_i1 [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-qaimbjhpuspjxfrd] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:55 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:02 -!- nmz787_i1 [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-qaimbjhpuspjxfrd] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13 < _archels> superkuh: hmm, were you at one time working on a simulation environment for artificial neural networks? 11:20 < kanzure> /************MAYBE WE WILL NEED STUFF*****************/ 11:21 < kanzure> char ackt[]= "RDSP/1.0 200 OK\nCseq= 123\nSession: 4\nPL: 23\nreason 434\nduration: 100\nrate: 200\ntransport: RdsP/1 1.2.3.4 55\npname: a_test\npvalue: werwetergertertywerytwr4++3434\n \n"; 11:23 < chris_99> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/903107259/scio-your-sixth-sense-a-pocket-molecular-sensor-fo 11:23 < chris_99> i'm curious what ir sensor they're using 11:24 < kanzure> userdata/InputData/TI_Carotid_tissdata_512x256x69.bin 11:25 < kanzure> ti.sdo.ce.examples.apps.audio1_copy.sync; 1, 0, 0,135; 7-27-2010 22:04:51; /db/atree/library/trees/ce/ce-q08x/src/ 11:37 < kanzure> hmm midas_usound_demo4_rel/miDAS/ultrasound/demo3/backend/src/process/UsAcquire.c and UsProcess.c 11:40 < kanzure> http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MIDAS_Ultrasound_v4.0_Demo 11:41 < kanzure> "The sample raw data used in the demo is from a scan of a Carotid Artery, consisting of 69 frames of post-RF-demodulated data. Each frame worth of input data includes 256 scanlines, 512 samples/scanline of B-mode, and 48 scanlines, 256 samples/scanline, 10 ensembles of doppler (color flow) data. This input data is initially stored on the NFS/SDcard on OMAP3530. During initialization, all 69 frames worth of input data is sent to the C6678 ... 11:41 < kanzure> ... which stores this in DDR. When processing starts, the input data is fed in at a set acquisition interval rate (set at 20 fps in this demo but can be customized), which is then processed through the BPU, DPU (on C6678) and SCU (on OMAP3530's DSP) modules as shown above, and the final scan-converted image is displayed via OMAP3530's DVI output onto an external 7-inch LCD screen." 11:42 < gradstudentbot> So, I'll let you have my reagents when I'm done with my project. 11:46 < kanzure> this claims the algorithm is "bilinear interpolation" http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprab32/sprab32.pdf 11:52 < chris_99> nmz787, are you about per chance? 11:54 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, it's definitely impractical and fairly non-elegant at the same time. 11:55 < kanzure> here's an okay overview http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/sprabo0/sprabo0.pdf 11:57 < kanzure> even better overview: http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/sprab12/sprab12.pdf 11:59 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-238-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 12:00 < kanzure> "The manufacturing of current ultrasound transducers is quite time consuming and expensive for several reasons. Many layers are glued together, which means that each surface must be properly prepared. Also, each glue interface must not contain air voids because they tend to scatter the sound waves as they propagate through each layer. Finally, all of the signals must be connected to transducer cable that connects to the main ultrasound ... 12:00 < kanzure> ... system. Great care is taken to impedance match all of the piezoelectric element/wire pairs to ensure that all of the A/D converters see the same load. To avoid these issues, alternate transducer structures using capactive micro-machined ultrasound transducers (CMUTs) is an active area of research [33]." 12:02 -!- jcluck [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:06 -!- cluckj [~cluckj@cpe-24-92-63-104.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:09 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.136.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:15 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28 < kanzure> hah why did eric hunting buy a mac pro? 12:29 < kanzure> http://www.nist.gov/el/isd/robocrane2.cfm 12:29 < kanzure> "The Lunar Rover concept is also very interesting. It was based on a deployable 6 point gantry with little tread drive units on the bottom and flexible corners making a three-legged robot. The RoboCrane platform was suspended within this, its tilting ability used to maintain level position regardless of the tilt of the gantry." 12:29 < kanzure> http://www.nist.gov/el/isd/lunar-rover.cfm 12:31 < kanzure> "The Intelligent Systems Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) experimented with a variety of applications for the NIST RoboCrane. The RoboCrane design utilizes the basic idea of the Stewart Platform parallel link manipulator. The unique feature of the NIST approach is the use of cables as the parallel links and the use of winches as the actuators." 12:33 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140429/ncomms4742/full/ncomms4742.html 12:33 < kanzure> .title 12:34 < yoleaux> Mutation rate plasticity in rifampicin resistance depends on Escherichia coli cell–cell interactions 12:34 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms4742 12:55 < jrayhawk> kanzure: where's this rdsp thing documented 12:56 < jrayhawk> i am vaguely familiar with rtc, rtp, rtsp, rtmp, and zrtp, but not rdsp 12:56 -!- Adifex|zzz [Adifex@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:f4e8] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 12:56 < kanzure> from here https://gforge.ti.com/gf/download/frsrelease/753/5292/midas_usound_demo4_rel.zip 12:56 < kanzure> context is https://gforge.ti.com/gf/project/med_ultrasound/ 12:59 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@154-154-15.connect.netcom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:05 < kanzure> huh "Very high-frequency ultrasound (VHFU;> 35 megahertz [MHz]) allows imaging 13:05 < kanzure> of anterior segment structures of the eye with a resolution of less than 40 μm." 13:20 -!- Adifex [Adifex@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:f4e8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:29 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 13:39 < kanzure> the manufacturing process (section 4) is long: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ultrasound/Flexible%20two-dimensional%20ultrasonic%20transducer%20array:%20design,%20fabrication%20and%20characterization.pdf 13:53 -!- nsh [~nsh@wikipedia/nsh] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:10 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@154-154-15.connect.netcom.no] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:19 -!- nsh [~nsh@host86-158-74-190.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:32 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:32 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wqvsmheqmgwxeglb] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 14:38 < jrayhawk> https://twitter.com/PPR98/status/460457141724147713/photo/1 interesting investment incentives 14:39 < kanzure> spacex should do the same deal 14:47 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:47 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 14:49 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has quit [Client Quit] 14:50 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:53 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has quit [Client Quit] 14:53 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 14:54 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:57 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:59 -!- pyotra [~fircuser@24.60.79.55] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:14 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:15 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:18 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-101-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:19 < kanzure> http://www.theawl.com/2014/04/internet-terror-cell-neutralized 15:22 < eudoxia> i thought hplusroadmap had made the news again 15:28 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:28 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:28 < kanzure> i can't figure out where i learned about piezo/PZT dicing 15:30 < kanzure> apparently it's all piezo-ceramic semiconductor-style photolithography and etching these days 15:30 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:32 -!- jcluck is now known as cluckj 15:37 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:44 < kanzure> "Liquid Metal as Connecting or Functional Recovery Channel for the Transected Sciatic Nerve" 15:44 < kanzure> paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/1404.5931 15:44 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Liquid%20Metal%20as%20Connecting%20or%20Functional%20Recovery%20Channel%20for%20the%20Transected%20Sciatic%20Nerve.pdf 15:47 < jrayhawk> holy shit fyad died? 15:50 < strangewarp> FYAD is dead --Nietzsche 15:55 < cpopell> jrayhawk: GBS 2.0 was basically FYAD for a while 15:58 < jrayhawk> the zen self-trolling ethos was probably the value worth saving, and i suppose that's already been exported everywhere 15:58 < jrayhawk> 'we're sending corsair to an organic farm upstate, he'll be happy there' haha 15:58 < cluckj> RIP FYAD 15:58 < cpopell> I don't really go there anymore except to skim MMOHMO and ADTRW 15:59 < eudoxia> the only FYAD i knew was the OIFY 15:59 < cpopell> the collapse of LF, and then later deletion of LF, made things uninhabitable for a while 15:59 < eudoxia> #hplusroadmapkidzkorner 15:59 < gradstudentbot> Grant submitted. 15:59 < jrayhawk> The collapse of LF was inevitable after the 2008 election. 16:00 < jrayhawk> The only thing that made things coherent was RON PAUL 16:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:00 < cpopell> jrayhawk: I meant more it becoming radical leftists that make strangewarp look like a conservative 16:01 < jrayhawk> Yeah, Ron Paul really brought everyone together. 16:01 < strangewarp> Lowtax did say he wanted to "de-Tumblrfy" SA, in a quip on Twitter, anyway. 16:02 < kanzure> i underestimated the infiltration rate of goons in here 16:02 < strangewarp> cpopell: I doubt most possible people could make me look conservative in comparison. 16:02 < cluckj> ex-goons 16:02 < cpopell> strangewarp: there were unironic Maoist third-worldists 16:02 < jrayhawk> what's the name of the law that says "any public forum not specifically billing itself conservative will become increasingly liberal" 16:03 < strangewarp> kanzure: I haven't gooned since '05, and even then, I was just an IRCer without a forum account 16:03 < cpopell> strangewarp: and at least once (the other time was BYOB) someone threatened the president and got the SS called to Lowtax's house 16:03 < jrayhawk> the neoreo concept of the "leftist singularity" is pretty good even if neoreos are crazy 16:03 < strangewarp> cpopell: MTW is understandable in the current geopolitical context, anyway 16:03 < kanzure> strangewarp: gooning works just like bitcoin mining, so a month in 2004 counts for more than a year in 2010 16:03 < cluckj> my only current goonery is torrents 16:03 < cpopell> jrayhawk: this also hearks the death of any political forum 16:03 < strangewarp> kanzure: ha, well, I was in with the SA Furs, so that probably throws it out the window 16:04 < cpopell> jrayhawk: because the more left it goes, the more fragmented it gets 16:04 < cpopell> strangewarp: did you get helldumped? 16:04 < strangewarp> cpopell: nope 16:07 < jrayhawk> http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2537734 i got helldumped before there even was a helldump 16:07 < jrayhawk> a pity all the images are dead 16:07 < cpopell> were you bungmonkey 16:07 < jrayhawk> yes 16:08 < cluckj> oh god good reunion 16:08 < cpopell> http://i.imgur.com/6B1iK.jpg 16:08 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:08 < cluckj> err goon reunion 16:08 < cpopell> I didn't get an account til 2010 so 16:08 < jrayhawk> http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/ more here 16:09 < jrayhawk> man, that was a good thread. poor fyad :( 16:11 < cluckj> :| 16:11 < eudoxia> so that's where that image of the bed in the basement is from 16:12 < strangewarp> I wonder what happens now to all the alienated FYAD leftist comedians. 16:12 < cpopell> tumblr 16:12 < cluckj> ^ 16:12 < jrayhawk> And twitter. 16:12 < cpopell> then digested by the maw of TiA for my amusement 16:13 < eudoxia> TiA? 16:13 < cpopell> tumblrinaction 16:13 < cpopell> it makes fun of tumblr 16:13 < eudoxia> is that like shitredditsays 16:13 < eudoxia> why do i ask i don't even know what that is either 16:13 < cpopell> that is a controversial question 16:13 < strangewarp> it cherrypicks crazy people on tumblr (but never tumblr's large nazi/neoreaction community, oddly) and mocks them 16:14 < cpopell> nah, they've mocked a bunch of nazis 16:14 < strangewarp> hmm 16:14 < cpopell> I doubt most of them have heard of neoreaction >_> 16:15 < cpopell> I've never seen neoreaction discussed anywhere but #lesswrong, Yvain's site, and various facebooks of related people 16:15 < cluckj> I've never heard of it before 16:16 < jrayhawk> also david brin and techcrunch http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/11/neo-reactionaries-drop-all-pretense-end.html http://anti-gnostic.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-cathedral-notices-neo-reaction.html 16:16 < cpopell> http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ have an innoculation, cluckj 16:17 < kanzure> "I'm pigeonholing all of them as agreeing with Michael Anissimov, which they do not; this complaint seems reasonable" 16:17 < kanzure> what is anissimov doing here 16:17 < kanzure> where am i 16:17 < cpopell> anissimov is a neoreactionary 16:17 < strangewarp> Anissimov is going to form a neoreactionary compound in Idaho soon, actually 16:17 < eudoxia> rachel haywire ruined everything 16:17 < jrayhawk> http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/22/right-is-the-new-left/ is a pretty good theory on why the neoreaction is happening 16:17 < eudoxia> i tried to warn them 16:17 < cpopell> I almost met her once 16:17 < cpopell> To try to sleep with her 16:17 < kanzure> i think i can blame jrayhawk for this 16:18 < cpopell> it didn't happe 16:18 < cpopell> *happen 16:18 < cluckj> man that is almost tl;dr 16:19 < cluckj> no it is 16:19 < cluckj> sorry... 16:19 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:19 < kanzure> he should have stuck with imminst 16:19 < cluckj> "Neoreaction is a political ideology supporting a return to traditional ideas of government and society, especially traditional monarchy and an ethno-nationalist state. It sees itself opposed to modern ideas like democracy, human rights, multiculturalism, and secularism. " 16:20 < cluckj> that's hysterically funny tho 16:21 < eudoxia> i guess you can sort of see some roots here: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2006/01/the-future-could-end-up-looking-like-the-past-at-least-initially/ 16:21 < cpopell> I mean, at least Anissimov is just a nrxn 16:21 < jrayhawk> neoreos are at least willing to point out problems with sacred cows even if their solutions are fairly insane 16:21 < cpopell> I think Haywire might be a nazi 16:22 < cluckj> :/ 16:22 < eudoxia> i thought she was a 'national anarchist' 16:22 < cpopell> or, at least, a radical white supremacist 16:22 < cpopell> alongside Vladimir Frolov 16:22 < cluckj> I would not be surprised that someone who wants an ethno-nationalist state *might be kind of a racist* 16:23 < jrayhawk> yeah, my first reaction to "16:17 < cpopell> it didn't happe" was "you should thank whatever god you have" 16:23 < kanzure> why was alternate rayhawk trying to get me to talk with her? 16:24 < cpopell> cluckj: Well, i know people who support ethno-nationalists states for everyone because they think that each ethno-nationalist subgroup will be most successful that way 16:24 < jrayhawk> compulsive motivational integration 16:24 < eudoxia> did the whole 'zero state' thing turn out to be transtopia 2.0 16:24 < cluckj> so....rationalized racism? 16:24 < eudoxia> i suspected it would be like that but didn't really follow up on it 16:24 < strangewarp> something something armenian genocide 16:24 < kanzure> jrayhawk: oh, i thought there was something else going on, which is why i never bothered (because i wanted to hear it first) 16:25 < cpopell> cluckj: Nnno? They don't think any one race is better than another, they think homogenous populations are more stable 16:25 < cluckj> O_o 16:26 < cluckj> yeesh 16:26 < eudoxia> so, sort of like jared taylor "not a racist, swear, scout's honor" racism 16:26 < cluckj> ^^^^ 16:26 < cpopell> Out of curiosity, why is that -automatically- racist? 16:26 < cpopell> it's certainly not a settled sociological issue 16:26 < eudoxia> it just has that familiar smell 16:27 < jrayhawk> hey, that means it's time for another yvain post 16:27 < cluckj> eudoxia, if it quacks like a duck... 16:29 < cluckj> cpopell, it's what counts as "homogenous" that makes it racist 16:29 < cpopell> Please explain why, in detail, without using metaphor 16:31 < kanzure> set exclusivity is by definition racism 16:31 < cpopell> you can even use self-identification to determine heterogeneity and homogeneity 16:32 < jrayhawk> where's the yvain post where he talks about memetic strawmen constructs people pattern-match to being epistemic superweapons 16:32 < cpopell> jrayhawk: it's on his old livejournal 16:32 < jrayhawk> ah 16:33 < jrayhawk> eudoxia, cluckj: http://squid314.livejournal.com/329561.html 16:33 < jrayhawk> .title 16:33 < cluckj> without using metaphor? 16:33 < yoleaux> squid314: The Eighth Meditation on Superweapons and Bingo 16:34 < kanzure> both of his examples are boring because they are both funny 16:34 < kanzure> (1) a monkey giving birth to a human is definitely hilarious 16:34 < kanzure> (2) so is the god/bible thing 16:35 < kanzure> he sucks at humor 16:35 < jrayhawk> he's not trying to be funny 16:35 < kanzure> he's implying that they are wrong to find those statements funny 16:36 < jrayhawk> and, yet, 16:20 < cluckj> that's hysterically funny tho 16:37 < kanzure> what's wrong with finding all sides of an issue absurd 16:37 < cluckj> lol 16:37 < kanzure> "all" 16:37 < cluckj> kanzure is 100% correct that those things are pretty funny 16:37 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:38 < kanzure> his bingo example is also worrisome 16:38 < kanzure> i believe i made a transhumanist bingo thing once 16:38 < kanzure> before going to a conference 16:39 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-67-176-51-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:39 < cluckj> h+ in boston? 16:39 < cluckj> I think I remember that 16:39 -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-67-176-51-230.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:39 < kanzure> being an obviously extremely enthusiastic transhumanist, which makes more sense: i was trying to undermine their.. okay nevermind. i don't care. 16:39 < eudoxia> hahahah 16:40 < eudoxia> "i got 'read nanosystems'!" 16:40 < cluckj> there's nothing wrong with undermining some of the goofier transhumanist stereotypical buzzwords 16:40 < kanzure> to be fair, i really should read nanosystems eventually 16:40 < cluckj> they get to be goofy buzzwords for a reason 16:42 < cluckj> the author of that lj post is doing exactly what it is accusing other people of doing 16:42 < eudoxia> alternatively: 'read the WBE roadmap', a link to an obscure part of the zyvex labs website, or a ralph merkle lecture at singularity U 16:42 < kanzure> eudoxia: your examples are too specific 16:43 < kanzure> eudoxia: because the vast majority of them haven't actually heard about zyvex 16:43 < kanzure> or even ralph 16:44 < eudoxia> really it's more like a eudoxia bingo 16:44 < cluckj> lol 16:44 < strangewarp> I am vaguely worried that nrx is the only serviceable non-socialist critique of neoliberal capitalism, and therefore that a lot of people might ultimately filter into it. 16:44 < strangewarp> but eh. meh 16:45 < cpopell> strangewarp: Maybe someday I'll write up my thoughts 16:45 < strangewarp> cpopell: hmm 16:45 < cpopell> strangewarp: I suspect that in some ways they're more radical than neoreaction, and in some ways less so 16:46 < cluckj> uh 16:46 < cluckj> wat 16:46 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-101-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: wow such dinnertime] 16:46 < kanzure> jrayhawk: although i do appreciate the parts about inhuman monsters 16:48 < gradstudentbot> Should I still be wearing gloves? 16:48 < cluckj> reversion to old ridiculous states of governance is a solution to the current ridiculous state of governance? 16:48 < strangewarp> clickj: apparently 16:49 < cluckj> we need new tricks, not old ones 16:50 < cpopell> cluckj: their problem is with the way we're trying new tricks 16:51 < cluckj> in what way? 16:52 < cpopell> if you read further, their concern is that most of our solutions involve going further the way we're already going 16:52 < cpopell> so they advise going back and re-evaluating 16:53 < cluckj> as though society "evolves" and you can go "back in time," so to speak, to get a do-over? 16:53 < cpopell> I'd advise actually reading through the yvain writeups 16:54 < cpopell> well, their argument is that it's not an evolution, it's just a shifting of opinions, and they're trying to shift it back the way it came to try to figure out where to go next 16:55 < jrayhawk> there's a diversity of arguments; you should probably use specific and tasteful thought leaders rather than attempt to steelman the movement as a whole 16:55 < cluckj> O_o 16:55 < cpopell> jrayhawk: fair-I'd suggest he reads Yvain instead 16:56 < cpopell> I will fully admit that I'm not immersed in it and I'm more or less repeating what I've heard 16:56 < cpopell> neoreo isn't really my thing 16:56 < cluckj> linx? 16:56 < jrayhawk> not really mine either, but i wind up associating with a lot of them for complex signaling reasons 16:57 < jrayhawk> cluckj: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ 16:57 < cpopell> jrayhawk: I don't but that's because I wouldn't say I strongly associate with that many people in general 16:57 < cpopell> also http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/ which sums up their views 16:57 < jrayhawk> Ah, yeah. 16:58 < jrayhawk> Also you can just read moldbug for a while. He's usually got neat epistemology if you're willing to ignore some of his instrumentality. 16:59 < cluckj> who is writing that stuff? 17:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:01 < strangewarp> my guess: the CIA 17:01 < jrayhawk> writing which stuff? 17:01 < strangewarp> more realistically: some pissed-off techie dude 17:01 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-101-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:03 < cluckj> strangewarp, some pissed-off kind-of-literate probably white, middle-class, techie dude :\ 17:04 < kanzure> yeah, these posts have really weird epistemology about what it is possible to do as a person or group of people 17:04 < kanzure> is this how other people think about the world 17:04 < cpopell> see, this is why Yvain wrote the Anti-Reactionary FAQ to actually address their points 17:05 < cluckj> kanzure, god I hope not 17:05 < cluckj> no...no I've met lots of people and they don't think about the world like that 17:07 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:07 < cluckj> the massive diatribe against the social sciences is a pretty dead-giveaway about what that guy is up to 17:07 < cpopell> Yvain or Moldbug? 17:08 < cluckj> yvain, I think 17:08 < cpopell> He has a massive diatribe against poor methodology in general 17:08 < cluckj> I'm sure 17:09 < jrayhawk> Yeah, not sure I'm familar with a social-sciences-specific one 17:09 < jrayhawk> He has a pretty big bias towards psych and medical literature, but that's due to his profession. 17:09 < cluckj> what's his profession? 17:09 < cpopell> yeah, he's a medical doctor though I don't know what his residency is 17:10 < cluckj> the social sciences one is in the enormous-planet-sized-nutshell post 17:10 < cpopell> can you quote a specific line? 17:11 < kanzure> maybe the hyperborder line 17:12 < cluckj> "Almost all of our hard data on race comes from sociology programs in universities – ie the most liberal departments in the most liberal institutions in the country. Most of these sociology departments have an explicit mission statement of existing to fight racism." ... Do you think the average sociologist selects the study design most likely to turn up evidence of racist beliefs being correct, or the study design most likely to 17:12 < cluckj> turn up the opposite? If despite her best efforts a study does turn up evidence of racist beliefs being correct, do you think she’s going to submit it to a major journal with her name on it for everyone to see? And if by some bizarre chance she does submit it, do you think the International Journal Of We Hate Racism So We Publish Studies Proving How Dumb Racists Are is going to cheerfully include it in their next edition?" 17:14 < kanzure> .title http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/typehoverswipe/ 17:14 < yoleaux> Type–Hover–Swipe in 96 Bytes: A Motion Sensing Mechanical Keyboard 17:14 < cpopell> Do you think it's out of an innate dislike for liberals (which he tends to identify as), or a worry about ideology impacting results? 17:14 < cpopell> He recently wrote a blog post on ideology impacting results 17:14 < kanzure> infrared proximity sensors embedded between each key on the keyboard, then basic gesture recognition stuff 17:14 < cluckj> kind of culty rhetoric overall too 17:14 < FourFire> cluckj, and what does that mean if data still ends up showing racist things? 17:15 < cluckj> FourFire, big surprise: there's racism around 17:15 < FourFire> god/nature/evolution must be REALLY racist 17:16 < cluckj> o_O 17:16 < cluckj> what? 17:16 < eudoxia> B| 17:17 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ 17:17 < cluckj> cpopell, ideology impacts results everywhere 17:17 < cpopell> cluckj: I'm well aware. 17:17 < cluckj> and sociology is the most "objective" of all the social sciences 17:18 < cpopell> ehhhhhhhhhhhh in some schools. 17:18 < cluckj> they're the butt of lots of jokes because they have hard-science envy 17:18 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:18 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+ooo ParahSailin heath _archels] by kanzure 17:18 < FourFire> hello kanzure I think I met your liberal arts, kawai doppleganger 17:19 < gradstudentbot> The freezer was too cold and fucked up my sample DNA. 17:19 < FourFire> funnily enough they seem to instantly hate me too ;P 17:19 <@kanzure> i prefer neil gershenfeld's "liberation arts" 17:19 -!- cpopell is now known as cpopell`gym 17:20 <@kanzure> "Literacy in the modern sense emerged in the Renaissance as mastery of the liberal arts. This is liberal in the sense of liberation, not politically liberal." [blah blah blah, shut up and code] 17:20 < cluckj> true dat 17:23 < cluckj> I hope I'm not the doppleganger 17:24 <@kanzure> you're more like, adjacent and 30 degrees too far over 17:24 <@kanzure> i made that up. i have no idea why you would be my doppleganger. 17:27 < cluckj> lol 17:27 < cluckj> me neither 17:28 < cluckj> contextually it sounded like FourFire was accusing me of that 17:29 < FourFire> sorry, what? 17:29 < FourFire> no lol 17:29 < cluckj> okay 17:29 < FourFire> I wouldn't be so blatant 17:29 < cluckj> I don't know you well enough to hate you 17:30 < FourFire> and you didn't express nearly enough hostility towards me to consider that you hated me at all 17:30 < FourFire> exactly 17:31 < cluckj> puzzled, yes; hateful, no 17:32 < eudoxia> what if we're all uploads an AI decided to keep after it went FOOM 17:32 < eudoxia> and there's really nothing outside of ##hplusroadmap 17:32 < cluckj> I assure you I am not a computer 17:33 <@kanzure> just a flesshy calculating organism machine thing 17:33 <@kanzure> so basically a computer 17:33 <@kanzure> but it's totally not like that 17:33 < cluckj> more gooey 17:33 <@kanzure> *fleshy 17:33 < eudoxia> less pointy 17:33 < cluckj> very messy 17:33 < cluckj> there are parts of me made of computer, but I am not a computer 17:34 < eudoxia> also colder 17:35 < cluckj> maybe 17:36 < gradstudentbot> Do I use a one or two sided t-test for that? 17:36 < cluckj> aight I am done reading that neoreactionary garbage :( 17:36 < cluckj> nothing gained 17:36 < cluckj> I love you gradstudentbot 17:36 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, that's a reasonable explanation. 17:38 * eudoxia pokes gradstudentbot 17:38 < gradstudentbot> Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. 17:41 < FourFire> cluckj, I would warm your cold parts with my warm parts 17:41 < FourFire> but that sounded way less creepy inside my head 17:41 < FourFire> Perhaps I better soz now 17:42 < FourFire> nitelight! 17:42 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@154-154-15.connect.netcom.no] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 17:42 < cluckj> ew 17:43 < xentrac> 19:37 < kanzure> to be fair, i really should read nanosystems eventually 17:43 < xentrac> me too. I even bought a copy 17:43 < eudoxia> well know i feel less guilty for not getting past page 50 17:43 < xentrac> 19:42 < strangewarp> I am vaguely worried that nrx is the only serviceable non-socialist critique of neoliberal capitalism, and therefore that a lot of people might ultimately filter into it. 17:43 < xentrac> outside the US, neoliberal capitalism is really very unpopular 17:44 <@kanzure> i am surprised that you haven't read kinematic self-replicating machines or the NASA AASM report 17:44 < xentrac> and while socialism is popular, neoreaction is not going to be 17:44 < eudoxia> i felt like drexler was trying to justify ab initio simulations to me, and i was like "come on eric get to the good stuff" 17:44 < xentrac> so there's a lot of stuff popping up 17:47 < xentrac> yeah, I think I've read a few pages 17:47 < xentrac> of nanosystems 17:47 <@kanzure> why is there no thin film piezoelectric array thing 17:47 < xentrac> why are you surprised I haven't read those, kanzure? 17:47 <@kanzure> KSRM is often a favorite for anyone who has thought about mechanical contraptions and/or reprap 17:49 < xentrac> without having actually built them? :) 17:49 < xentrac> I'm kind of like Eugen in that 17:49 < xentrac> too much book, not enough street 17:50 <@kanzure> his laser worm uploader gave him a chunk of street cred 17:51 <@kanzure> man these are very dimensionally inconsistent streets 17:52 < xentrac> heh 17:53 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:53 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-jtwxwxouhvzkjckp] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:54 < nmz787_i> punchcard microfluidics control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNQToOEFNmY 17:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:54 <@kanzure> thin film transducers http://www.cesma.de/fileadmin/FILES/Files_CESMA/piezo/CeSMa_Thin_film_transducers.pdf 17:54 < xentrac> is that minduploading.org? 17:54 -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:54 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:54 <@kanzure> xentrac: a lot of the content is gone, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/ 17:54 <@kanzure> xentrac: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/url.txt 17:55 < eudoxia> some of the slices are missing too 17:55 <@kanzure> there used to be a picture of the machine they built 17:55 < nmz787_i> so the one fab who does glass say they can do glass deflection valves 17:55 < cluckj> and while socialism is popular, neoreaction is not going to be <------- 17:55 < eudoxia> it was a KESM or something wasn't it? 17:55 < nmz787_i> basically causing some thin section of the glass channel to bulge and cut off flow 17:58 <@kanzure> nmz787_i: which one? 17:58 <@kanzure> eudoxia: maybe, but i get that one confused with todd huffman's 17:58 < nmz787_i> invenios 17:59 < nmz787_i> so that relieves some worry about chemical:channel compatibility 17:59 <@kanzure> what is their price? 17:59 < eudoxia> cool -> https://web.archive.org/web/20000821073558/http://retina.anatomy.upenn.edu/~rob/montage.html 18:00 < nmz787_i> they didn't say, first they're going to get me an nda so I can discuss the design further... but they did say that they're a privately held company and the owner has done some startup investment before 18:00 < xentrac> cluckj: ? 18:00 < cluckj> I'm agreeing 18:01 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:01 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01 < xentrac> ah 18:01 <@kanzure> why do you need an nda to ask about price? 18:01 < nmz787_i> because they need to know how complex the features are, and so i'll need to give them some CADs 18:01 < xentrac> I realize that what i said is sort of incomplete: lots of other ideologies are going to fill the vacuum 18:01 < xentrac> Mormonism, for example 18:02 <@kanzure> you mean transfigurism 18:02 <@kanzure> .g mormon transhumanist association 18:02 < yoleaux> http://transfigurism.org/ 18:02 < cluckj> at least mormonism isn't bathing in the glorious light of overt racism 18:03 < cluckj> ... 18:03 < xentrac> overt racism, sad to say, is pretty popular 18:03 < cluckj> hehe 18:03 < cluckj> yes 18:04 <@kanzure> nmz787_i: do you have cad files to give them? and why do they need to be covered by nda 18:05 < nmz787_i> they're in the works, I want to have some legal control over them... also the nda is for them too, for fab process, existing designs, etc 18:05 <@kanzure> if you want an estimate just on valves, give them another design that uses valves 18:05 <@kanzure> and then you don't need to have an nda 18:06 < nmz787_i> yeah I could do that 18:10 <@kanzure> xentrac: i want to iterate through possible mechanism designs instead of spending 100s of years waiting for people to come up with clever hacks 18:10 <@kanzure> xentrac: maybe something like (input, output) coordinates in 3d spcae for different amounts of material or energy 18:10 < xentrac> I'm lacking context about that statement 18:10 <@kanzure> the dolls you showed are very intriguing 18:11 < xentrac> ah 18:11 <@kanzure> there are often lots of obscure mechanisms from old arabic books that nobody has heard of 18:11 <@kanzure> for example, from whatever era where they became obsessed with water fountains 18:11 < xentrac> that sounds interesting; where can I learn more? 18:11 <@kanzure> often these designs are not intuitively obvious 18:11 < eudoxia> i always wondered how the fountain in that kirsten dunst movie worked 18:11 <@kanzure> i don't really know, i keep seeing '1000 kinematic designs' books and that's where i gleam this from 18:11 <@kanzure> fenn probably knows 18:12 < xentrac> I don't think kinematic designs are very important 18:12 <@kanzure> then there's those weird strandbeests 18:12 < xentrac> particularly things made of rigid materials 18:12 <@kanzure> why's that? 18:13 < xentrac> I enjoy playing with them and I think they're cool 18:13 < xentrac> but I think very few of them are practical as means to an end 18:14 < xentrac> I mean, the gap from a travois to a European wheelbarrow is significant 18:14 < xentrac> and the gap from there to a Chinese wheelbarrow is even more so 18:15 < xentrac> but then you have the gap from the Chinese wheelbarrow to, you know, an 18-wheeler, and that's not about kinematic designs any more 18:15 <@kanzure> it's basically encoding motion into structure/form 18:15 < xentrac> it's about metrology and petroleum and economic specialization 18:15 < xentrac> and of course massive subsidies from a centralized government 18:16 < xentrac> but I think that if you want to encode motion 18:16 < xentrac> you should probably encode it in ROM 18:16 < xentrac> or maybe RAM 18:16 < xentrac> not in the structure of your device 18:17 < xentrac> if your objective is to make the motion happen, not make people marvel at how cleverly it was achieved 18:17 <@kanzure> yeah the marveling i don't care about 18:17 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-53-101-229.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:18 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:19 < xentrac> yeah. I like marveling and I think it's important but I don't think marvelousness should be confused with practicality 18:20 <@kanzure> .title http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2129 18:20 < yoleaux> FQXi Community 18:20 <@kanzure> terrible title 18:20 < xentrac> in English at least 18:20 <@kanzure> http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Kaas_fqxiessay2a.pdf 18:21 < gradstudentbot> I'm only doing this to get tenure. 18:21 <@ParahSailin> philosophy? 18:21 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:21 -!- pads is now known as Guest30849 18:21 < jrayhawk> kanzure has to kick himself, now 18:22 < xentrac> :) 18:22 -!- cyberman [~dalek@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:22 -!- pad2 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:22 -!- apex [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:23 < xentrac> specifically in the context of MNT I think Drexler modeled things after machines we're familiar with in order to be able to demonstrate feasibility 18:23 < xentrac> which I think he did (despite not having read Nanosystems!) 18:24 <@kanzure> you can just look at the .mmp files 18:24 < xentrac> but in a sense it's sort of like how the ENIAC was built with one-hot base-ten encoding and therefore had a tube count and failure rate almost an order of magnitude higher than its immediate successors 18:24 <@kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/tree/master/cad/partlib 18:25 <@kanzure> oof i don't even remember non-nanoengineer methods of viewing .mmp files 18:25 <@kanzure> mayavi2? 18:26 <@kanzure> .. vtk? 18:26 < xentrac> and Babbage's machines, suffering much the same problem but without the resources of the world's richest government desperately trying to win history's biggest war, remained unfinished for almost two centuries 18:27 < xentrac> so I think we'll probably find ways of doing things that are orders of magnitude cheaper than rigid diamondoid parts sliding over each other 18:27 <@kanzure> in the mean time there's a bunch of manufacturing problems getting there: 18:27 <@kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/freitas_process/notes.txt 18:28 < xentrac> right 18:30 < xentrac> also I could totally be wrong and we could totally end up doing things the nanosystems way 18:32 -!- ebowden_ [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:32 < xentrac> but if we don't, it was still important as a demonstration that MNT was possible somehow 18:32 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:34 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 18:41 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:52 -!- cpopell`gym is now known as cpopell 19:05 <@kanzure> google scholar doesn't consider "intitle:piezo" to be a superset of "intitle:piezoelectric" 19:09 <@kanzure> argh it's 2014 why don't i have a 50 terabyte archive of all papers 19:13 < jrayhawk> libgen's only 30TB 19:18 <@kanzure> you counted? or where is it listed 19:20 < jrayhawk> https://sites.google.com/site/themetalibrary/library-genesis hmm, i guess this is just "at least" 19:21 -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-jtwxwxouhvzkjckp] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 19:32 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:35 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:38 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:42 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:01 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:03 <@kanzure> annular arrays are neat because it makes wiring much easier: http://www.insensor.com/img/app_trans_trans2.jpg 20:04 <@kanzure> http://myweb.dal.ca/jr516125/index_files/annular%20array.jpg 20:06 <@kanzure> and i think it might work with pcb-style copper etching 20:09 <@kanzure> oh, i guess a linear pzt array is also pretty simple to wire up or etch paths for 20:28 < juri_> so, last week 50% of my immediate family was diagnosed with cancer. 20:28 < juri_> am i allowed to kill luddites and technophobes now? 20:29 <@kanzure> cancer diagnosis is very vague 20:29 <@kanzure> could be anything 20:30 < juri_> breast + cervical + blader + ovarian cancer for my little sister. testicular cancer for my father. 20:30 < jrayhawk> what do luddites and technophobes have to do with cancer 20:31 < juri_> oh, nothing. i just feel like killing someone, and they fit the bill. 20:31 < jrayhawk> oh okay 20:33 <@kanzure> do you know what stage of cancer for each of those 20:33 < juri_> negative. 20:33 < juri_> i know my sister has started chemo. 20:33 <@kanzure> your sister is either unlucky or she has metastasized 20:35 < xentrac> not necessarily 20:35 < xentrac> oh 20:35 < xentrac> sorry 20:35 < xentrac> I was missing context 20:36 < xentrac> juri_: that's really horrible and sad 20:36 < juri_> its ok. i'm just generally hating life right now. 20:36 < xentrac> your father will almost certainly be fine 20:37 < juri_> bonus points: my mother has been diagnosed with ataxia, cannot walk anymore, and has macular degeneration. she was a championship quilter. 20:38 < juri_> this is all over the last month. 20:38 < juri_> are you sure i can't just wing a few technophobes? 20:38 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:38 < juri_> no-one would notice. 20:38 <@kanzure> i have a very thorough list of names if you're interested 20:39 < juri_> were you born a lisp programmer, or do lists just come naturally to you? :) 20:42 < xentrac> .wik ataxia 20:42 < yoleaux> "Ataxia (from Greek α- [a negative prefix] + -τάξις [order] = "lack of order"), is a neurological sign consisting of lack of voluntary coordination of muscle movements. Ataxia is a non-specific clinical manifestation implying dysfunction of the parts of the nervous system that coordinate movement, such as the cerebellum." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ataxia 20:43 <@kanzure> simple solution is ablate the cerebellum 20:49 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.42] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:50 <@kanzure> according to http://qspace.library.queensu.ca/dspace/bitstream/1974/6235/1/Wall_Kieran_A_201012_PhD.pdf in annular arrays there is "no possibility of electrical beam steering" 20:55 <@kanzure> "The axial symmetry of the array prevents electronic beam steering, but electronic focussing 20:55 <@kanzure> is possible" 21:10 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177-44-58-136.mastercabo.com.br] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:17 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:37 -!- audy [~audy@unaffiliated/audy] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:39 < superkuh> _archels, no. I was not the one (re: simulation environment). 21:45 -!- audy- [~audy@heyaudy.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:46 -!- marciogm [~marciogm@177.44.58.136] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 21:52 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:54 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:14 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:14 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 22:14 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:14 -!- d3vz3r0 [~d3vz3r0@jsr.6502.ws] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:14 -!- entelechios [~elysium@181.194.136.204] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:17 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.researchgate.net/.../230846374_Piezoelectric_InAsGaAs_quantum...%E2%80%8E 22:17 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/bf042c69f3a82d73af60e0b0023d1cd0.txt 22:23 -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.42] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:32 <@kanzure> "simulation of sidescan transducer arrays" http://www.beugungsbild.de/sidescan/sidescan2.html 22:36 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:41 -!- d3vz3r0 [~d3vz3r0@jsr.6502.ws] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:41 < delinquentme> Ok I think this is a formal fallacy: When one instance of a given thing is presented, torn down and consequently used to veto all others belonging to that category 22:42 < delinquentme> IE Monsanto made agent orange, therefore everything monsanto does kills babies 22:42 < gradstudentbot> None of this data makes sense. 22:44 < fenn> i have mixed feelings about ScIO. i'm sure it's a great spectrometer and does what they advertise, but essentially they're squatting the scientific commons by keeping the contributed data locked up in their "cloud" - why can't anyone just sell a sensor anymore instead of an "app" 22:48 < xmj> fenn: vendor lockin 22:48 < xmj> why do you think things are as cheap? 22:48 < xmj> because they got you by the balls for the next couple of years due to lockin effects. 22:48 <@kanzure> shouldn't there be a way to do an electrically addressable 2d grid 22:49 < justanotheruser> Opinion on ethereum? 22:49 <@kanzure> ethereum is going to experience a blood bath whenever official release happens 22:50 < justanotheruser> Opinion on bound-to-happen ethereum fork that has no premine? 22:50 <@kanzure> will be badmouthed by premine chain 22:50 < justanotheruser> Quite possibly 22:51 < justanotheruser> Maybe a script will be made on the premine chain generating insult strings towards the other chain 22:57 <@kanzure> how does pixel addressing in DMDs work? 22:58 <@kanzure> "To move the mirrors, the required state is first loaded into an SRAM cell located beneath each pixel, which is also connected to the electrodes. Once all the SRAM cells have been loaded, the bias voltage is removed, allowing the charges from the SRAM cell to prevail, moving the mirror. When the bias is restored, the mirror is once again held in position, and the next required movement can be loaded into the memory cell." 22:58 <@kanzure> well, okay, but how does the sram cell routing work 23:12 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 23:15 < fenn> xmj: nobody has me by the balls 23:15 < fenn> kanzure: multiplexing 23:16 < fenn> don't worry about DMD yet 23:16 < fenn> you don't have that many pixels 23:16 <@kanzure> i've seen one paper, "A 256×2562-D array transducer with Row-column addressing for 3-D Rectilinear Imaging", but they turn on/off an entire column at a time (but not a row?), so there's never single element addressing 23:16 <@kanzure> which i find highly confusing 23:17 <@kanzure> and one of the earlier papers i pasted has some jackass manually soldering wires directly to the back of each element in a 8x8 piezo grid 23:17 < fenn> it's only 64 wires, why not 23:18 <@kanzure> because multiplexing is adequate 23:18 < fenn> row-column addressing implies that they are turning on a row and a column and only selecting one element at a time 23:18 * kanzure looks closer 23:19 < fenn> a voltage only exists between two points, so if you turn on an entire row's positive electrode, nothing happens unless there is also a negative electrode connected 23:19 < fenn> excluding ground leakage or whatever 23:19 < fenn> why is denyhosts freaking out on my nook 23:20 <@kanzure> "In these experiments, one row was connected to one channel of the Sonix system. ... 64 receive columns were each connected to individual system channels configured to operate in receive mode only." 23:20 <@kanzure> "decreased number of channels compared to a fully sampled 2-D array of comparable size" 23:21 < fenn> uh, how many pixels total did they have? 23:21 <@kanzure> 65536 (256x256) 23:21 <@kanzure> 38.4 mm^2 23:21 < fenn> so why are they using 64 whatevers 23:22 <@kanzure> because apparently they are not using the term "row-column addressing" correctly 23:22 < fenn> i mean, maybe their receiver could only handle 64 channels when it really should have been capable of 256 23:24 <@kanzure> multiplexing might not be obvious to others? 23:24 < gradstudentbot> I think I just cured cancer. Wow. 23:24 <@kanzure> someone tell juri_ 23:24 < fenn> you can't multiplex multiple continuous analog streams without some kind of buffer 23:25 <@kanzure> does there need to be one analog-to-digital converter per channel? 23:25 < fenn> uh.. i dont know how their system works, sorry 23:25 <@kanzure> per channel/pzt/thing 23:25 < fenn> there's a way to do analog sample and hold, but that doesn't work for dynamic signals like sonar measurements 23:25 < fenn> i don't know that much about analog multiplexing tbh 23:26 -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-79-151.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:26 < fenn> you can get more channels if you throw away data 23:27 < fenn> say you have 2 ADC's, and 4 channels. you can monitor 2 channels all of the time, or 4 channels half of the time each 23:29 < fenn> there also might be some way to XOR (?) the analog data.. like just add a zillion sparse channels together in n different ways and then bisect to determine which channel the event happened on 23:29 < fenn> that only works with sparse signals tho 23:31 <@kanzure> since sound is slow i don't think monitoring the channels less than constantly is a problem 23:32 < fenn> depends on your adc speed 23:32 < fenn> if you have enough adc bandwidth to fill in the gaps, sure 23:32 <@kanzure> the gaps during switching? 23:33 < fenn> consider nyquist aliasing; if your adc has more than twice the bandwidth of the channel, you can monitor 2 channels and not worry about aliasing (excluding switching time, which may be significant) 23:33 < fenn> the gaps when you are not monitoring the channel 23:34 -!- nsh [~nsh@host86-158-74-190.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:34 < fenn> i might be using the words incorrectly, i never formally studied any of this 23:36 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37 <@kanzure> the limiting factor is the construction of cheap transducers 23:37 <@kanzure> uh, that also happen to do relevant phasing 23:37 <@kanzure> maybe manually soldering the wires is not that costly, but people just point the blame on that 23:38 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.35.30] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:39 <@kanzure> see chapter 4 of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ultrasound/Flexible%20two-dimensional%20ultrasonic%20transducer%20array:%20design,%20fabrication%20and%20characterization.pdf 23:40 < fenn> dear God, thank you for allowing me to live a life of soldering wires to sensor elements 23:41 < fenn> does everyone in academia just have the same template files or what? 23:41 <@kanzure> (yes) 23:41 <@kanzure> http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/attachments/iootp-2011-general-discussions/217391d1306358043-question-developer-johnny5-need-input.jpg 23:42 < fenn> is that supposed to be a meme? 23:42 <@kanzure> it's from the movie 23:42 <@kanzure> this little guy roams around seeking input 23:43 <@kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhhmI42gaa4&t=8s 23:43 < yoleaux> Short Circuit [1986] - Theatrical Trailer 23:43 < fenn> okay figure 4.3 is kinda whack 23:44 < fenn> figure 4.5 looks proper 23:45 < fenn> maybe it's because their array is flexible so they didn't want to bond it to the PCB 23:45 < fenn> but we know better ways to make flexible circuits than boatloads of wires 23:46 <@kanzure> i don't think our use case requires flexibility 23:46 < fenn> i don't think any use case requires flexibility 23:46 < fenn> i mean you can just put a blob of goo on the front and it's the same thing pretty much 23:47 < fenn> there are cases where you'd want your thingy to be flexible, but not for the purpose of sensing, just to simplify construction and other engineering tradeoffs 23:48 < fenn> Nepers per meter. well there's a new unit 23:51 < fenn> so he says flexibility is because otherwise the sound waves are not parallel to the surface in a rigid transducer, and impedance mismatch of the "coupling layer" (goo) 23:52 < fenn> i don't buy that because you can point the beam wherever you want with beamforming, that's the whole point of using an array 23:52 < gradstudentbot> Sorry about that. 23:53 < fenn> also with a flexible transducer you don't know the shape of your transducer so your entire image will be distorted in an unknown way 23:54 <@kanzure> why don't they put a sensor on the other side of your body? 23:54 <@kanzure> or even a few cm away etc 23:54 <@kanzure> oh right, you don't know the location of the sensor 23:55 < fenn> oh no do i put these in /measurement/ultrasound or /neuro/ultrasonic_brain_stimulatoin 23:55 <@kanzure> well, first you fix the typo 23:55 < fenn> there is no type 23:55 -!- kardan [~kardan@2a02:810d:1100:af8:bcd7:c307:acec:5a61] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:55 <@kanzure> stimulation 23:55 <@kanzure> second, brain stimulation should probably be reserved for brain or neuron stimulation 23:56 <@kanzure> and i don't know what measurement implies 23:56 < fenn> currently has a bunch of analytical chemistry stuff 23:56 < fenn> i'm thinking it's where "how to build lab equipment for measuring stuff" goes 23:56 <@kanzure> /root/home/home/papers/science/real-science/vibrations/mechanical-pressure-waves/non-audible/ 23:57 < fenn> real-science? 23:57 < fenn> do you also have pseudo-science? 23:57 < fenn> and definitely-fake-science? 23:58 <@kanzure> this isn't comparative ontology 101 23:58 <@kanzure> this is just observational ontology 23:58 < fenn> critical ontological theory 23:59 < fenn> let's have a group discussion 23:59 < fenn> how do paradigms of ontological oppression manifest in the mid century american technosphere 23:59 <@kanzure> are there options other than multiplexing? --- Log closed Wed Apr 30 00:00:02 2014