--- Log opened Fri May 09 00:00:55 2014
00:01 < fenn> nmz787_i: the reason small voltages don't normally shock you is the resistance of the skin
00:01 < fenn> integrated plasmonics strikes again!
00:08 < fenn> nmz787_i: you left out the actual data, which is the important part
00:08 < fenn> Hwang et al. (2006) found the incidence of "all cancers" in the irradiated population was 40% lower than expected (95 vs. 160.3 cases expected), except for leukaemia in men (6 vs. 1.8 cases expected) and thyroid cancer in women (6 vs. 2.8 cases expected), an increase only detected amongst those exposed before the age of 30.
00:08 < nmz787_i> i'm under 30
00:09 < nmz787_i> and leukemia would suck
00:09 < fenn> then go eat some potassium-40
00:09 < nmz787_i> losing specialized I/O would suck
00:09 < fenn> huh?
00:09 < nmz787_i> like arms or legs
00:09 < nmz787_i> becoming quadraplegic
00:10 < nmz787_i> etc
00:10 < fenn> what does that have to do with leukemia?
00:10 < nmz787_i> like, shit, I don't have a contingency plan if I get into a car accident and can't type with my hands anymore
00:10 < nmz787_i> nothing but cancer can include getting crap lopped off
00:10 < nmz787_i> just something i've been thinking in general
00:11 < fenn> since leukemia is made of blood cells it usually just kills you
00:11 < gradstudentbot> I don't think our fume hood is safe.
00:12 < fenn> i think the spleen goes first, then the liver
00:12 < fenn> then you're dead
00:13 -!- kardan [~kardan@199.254.238.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:14 < fenn> org/wiki/Neural_ensemble#Real-time_decoding you can also do ensemble decoding on peripheral nerves
00:14 < fenn> bah
00:14 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_ensemble#Real-time_decoding
00:15 < fenn> they pull the nerve endings out of your mangled limb and re-implant into the muscle tissue so they can use EMG to read the nerve signals
00:15 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:16 < fenn> if you get frostbite the nerve dies, but i think it can grow back over a year
00:16 < fenn> also there was something recently about routing around spinal cord injuries
00:17 <@kanzure> hah you're in the pic
00:18 < fenn> A novel combination of electrical stimulation and physical rehabilitation has restored some measure of limb control to 4 patients who were paralyzed following spinal cord injuries. Within days, all regained some voluntary control of their lower limbs an achievement that could dramatically change the way spinal cord injuries are handled going forward. Within 7 months, a man with zero movement and
00:18 < fenn> only limited sensation below his chest regained a significant degree of leg control demonstrating an ability to stand, without help
00:18 <@kanzure> you look too smug
00:18 < fenn> that's my "oh i'm being photographed" pose
00:19 <@kanzure> it's not your "heh i get to shock all these morons" pose?
00:19 <@kanzure> "look at all these potential victims, man"
00:19 < fenn> we had been shocking people for a few hours and it was almost sunset, so we were starting to disassemble the electric fence thingy
00:20 < fenn> nmz787_i: i also read some stuff about severed spinal cord fusion with polyethylene glycol
00:21 <@kanzure> so why did he get to name current after himself?
00:21  * kanzure looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Galvani
00:21 <@kanzure> "known for animal electricity"
00:22 < fenn> "Galvani coined the term animal electricity to describe the force that activated the muscles of his specimens." so it was other people that named it galvanic current (as usual)
00:23 < fenn> i wish we would stop naming things after dead people, or just stop with arbitrary naming in general
00:23 <@kanzure> "In the following year, 1762, he became a permanent anatomist of the university and was appointed honorary lecturer of surgery. That same year he married Lucia Galeazzi, daughter of one of his professors, Gusmano Galeazzi. Galvani moved into the Galeazzi house and helped his research. When Galeazzi died in 1775, Galvani was appointed professor and lecturer in Galeazzi's place."
00:23 <@kanzure> nope no conflict of interest there
00:23 < gradstudentbot> I haven't written the abstract.
00:23 < fenn> well hey he had access to all of galeazzi's stuff so why not
00:24 <@kanzure> "His new appointment consisted of the practical teaching of anatomy, which was conducted through human dissections and the use of the famous anatomical waxes."
00:24 <@kanzure> anatomical waxes?
00:24 < fenn> models
00:25 <@kanzure> hm "Galvani then began taking an interest in the field of "medical electricity." This field emerged in the middle of the 18th century, following the electrical researches and the discovery of the effects of electricity on the human body.[2]"
00:25 < fenn> tesla did a lot of cranky stuff in this area
00:25 < fenn> i mean, bad science
00:26 < fenn> unclear if it actually worked or not
00:26 <@kanzure> " Volta, essentially, objected to Galvani’s conclusions about "animal electric fluid", but the two scientists disagreed respectfully and Volta coined the term "Galvanism" for a direct current of electricity produced by chemical action.[5] Thus, owing to an argument between the two in regard to the source or cause of the electricity, Volta built the first battery in order to specifically disprove his associate's theory. Volta's “pile” ...
00:26 -!- kardan [~kardan@199.254.238.155] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:26 <@kanzure> ... became known therefore as a voltaic pile."
00:27 <@kanzure> pfft "he trusted his nephew, Giovanni Aldini, to act as the main defender of the theory of animal electricity.[6]"
00:27 < fenn> the aldini cell is composed of a stack of electric eels
00:27 < fenn> i choose you, aldini!
00:28 < fenn> rawr
00:30 <@kanzure> so volta made a battery and then did nothing with it?
00:30 <@kanzure> i am so confused
00:34 <@kanzure> maybe electric circuit design stuff is directly the product of these cell batteries?
00:34 <@kanzure> circuits can exist without batteries, though
00:34 < sheena> anyone got some science on best chicken egg hatching practices?
00:35 < fenn> my understanding is that magnetic circuits didn't take off until the pile (battery) was invented
00:36 <@kanzure> sheena: do you have an incubator?
00:36 -!- jmil [~jmil@hive76/member/jmil] has quit [Quit: jmil]
00:36 < sheena> yeah, they're incubating now
00:37 <@kanzure> i think there might be temperature optimization things to look into
00:37 <@kanzure> like various schedules of time/duration/temperature
00:37 <@kanzure> and then heat uniformity applied to eggs
00:38 < sheena> mhm
00:38 < fenn> i think constant temperature and humidity is fine
00:38 <@kanzure> huh, egg incubators are sorta cheap
00:38 <@kanzure> that's weird
00:38 < fenn> they're just a light bulb and a pan of water (optional thermostat and humidistat)
00:38 <@kanzure> well a thermocycler is just a lightbulb and .. oh yeah, just a lightbulb.
00:38 < nmz787_i> naming something after someone is kinda the opposite of arbitrary
00:39 < fenn> it's arbitrary because it has nothing to do with the thing itself
00:39 < sheena> mine has forced air heat
00:39 < fenn> especially when talking about physical principles
00:39 <@kanzure> sheena, sounds fancy
00:39 < sheena> humidity sensor but no humidistat
00:39 < sheena> thermostat tho
00:40 < fenn> you can just buy eggs ready to hatch
00:40 < fenn> when you open the box they pop
00:40 < sheena> fenn: im hatching eggs laid by my own (well, my mom's) chickens
00:40 < sheena> cheaper
00:40 < nmz787_i> well it has to do with the name the dude who discovered/popularized it
00:41 < fenn> nmz787_i: which is totally arbitrary
00:41 < nmz787_i> sheena: cool
00:41 < nmz787_i> fenn: nah there's lineage
00:41 <@kanzure> nate do you keep chickens
00:41 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I read the paper, I just don't remember the details.
00:41 < nmz787_i> nah, but my farmer by the city does
00:41 < nmz787_i> and turkeys and pigs and cows
00:42 < nmz787_i> and sheep
00:42 < sheena> nmz787_i: you know any science about raising super chickens? lol
00:42 < fenn> let them eat bugs
00:42 < nmz787_i> hmm, there has been some talk of GMOing them into something resembling a dinosaur
00:42 < fenn> chickasaurus rex
00:42 < nmz787_i> sheena: are you planning on raising them to chicks, or dissecting the embryos?
00:43 < fenn> come now, don't be rude
00:43 <@kanzure> why bugs
00:43 < fenn> "your baby is beautiful, i would love to dissect his brain"
00:43 < nmz787_i> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M30-oInTKs4
00:43 < sheena> raising them to chicks, inbreeding them and eating the inbreds
00:43 < nmz787_i> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJduWqtq-Ts
00:44 < sheena> bugs are high in protein. also they love them
00:44 < nmz787_i> I made those :P
00:44 < fenn> kanzure: same reasons humans should eat bugs, basically. they evolved to. more protein and vitamins omega-3 fats than in chicken food
00:44 < gradstudentbot> No no no no! Use your key commands!
00:45 < sheena> nmz787_i: i'm on limited bandwidth, so i'm not doing youtubes :(
00:45 < nmz787_i> they're short vids
00:45 < nmz787_i> but i gotcha
00:45 < sheena> <10 sec?
00:45 < nmz787_i> they are chick embryo heart cells and a heart explant (chunk) growing in -vitro and beating
00:45 <@kanzure> sheena, so i guess you could either buy crickets or go bug hunting
00:46 <@kanzure> or maybe ground crickets
00:46 < nmz787_i> 0:11 and 0:28
00:46 < sheena> Symptom: Eggs candling clear, No blood rings or embryo growth.        Possible cause: Eggs from a flock having no roosters.
00:46 < nmz787_i> nah just get a big yard
00:46 < fenn> nmz787_i: we did that in virology class.. much cooler when you do the tissue culture and see the waves spreading through the layer of cells
00:46 < sheena> they free range
00:47 <@kanzure> you had a virology class that did tissue cultures? no fair
00:47 < fenn> yeah virology was like the only class we did anything with post-18th-century techniques
00:47 < nmz787_i> fenn: yep I cracked the egg, did the cultures, then made the vids
00:47 < fenn> fucking college costs thousands of dollars and then you're playing with popsicle sticks and colored water
00:47 < nmz787_i> that was like 1 of many experiments in that tissue culture class
00:47 < gradstudentbot> The real reason I wanted to join this lab was because I love to clean glassware.
00:48 < nmz787_i> college was more like extended summer camp for me
00:48 < nmz787_i> even though I only went to summer camp like once, and it was a so-so experience
00:48 < nmz787_i> boy scout camp
00:48 < fenn> i probably would have hated summer camp
00:48 < nmz787_i> they helped me cheat with lighters for my fire badge
00:48 < fenn> i got to stay up late on the internet instead
00:48 < nmz787_i> nah we shot .22 guns
00:49 < nmz787_i> that was cool
00:49 < fenn> i had a model rocket, so nyah
00:49 < nmz787_i> or maybe that was the army/natl guard summer camp week/weekend thing
00:49 < nmz787_i> hrmm
00:50 < fenn> actually if i had had any sort of adult in my life who knew how to actually build anything, my life probably would have ended up differently
00:51 < fenn> there's only so much you can do with bricks and a pair of vise grips and no knowledge of electronics
00:51 < nmz787_i> yeah i think i'm pretty lucky that my dad was a decent home builder/remodeler... and could do things like change the brakes or starter or alternator or spark plugs and oil
00:51 < nmz787_i> but yeah his knowledge of electronics wasn't too deep
00:51 < fenn> i'd gotten like 6 wood carving/wood burning kits and still have no idea what they are for
00:51 < nmz787_i> he knew electricity enough to do code grade wiring
00:52 < fenn> wtf is wood burning
00:52 < nmz787_i> i got some good solder a few months ago and can do some SMD stuff OK
00:52 < nmz787_i> QFPs
00:52 < nmz787_i> i tried woodburning with my dads soldering iron when i was a kid
00:52 < sheena> wood burning is art :P
00:53 < fenn> wood burning is a good way to ruin a piece of plastic and stink up the house
00:53 < nmz787_i> plastic!=wood
00:53 < fenn> yeah tell that to a ten year old
00:54 < fenn> a ten year old bent on getting the broken laser printer apart
00:54 -!- naish411 [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap
00:54 < naish411> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124160033000147
00:54 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f2225e609d6ee02922398b1187cd4a20.txt
00:54 < fenn> i didn't know they used infrared lasers so i was always confused about why the laser didnt seem to do anything :X
00:56 < fenn> krill farming for fun and profit
00:56 -!- naish411 [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has quit [Client Quit]
00:59 < fenn> nickel iron batteries are pretty cool
01:00 < fenn> might be a good system for a wind/solar powered boat
01:03 <@kanzure> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Idea/Philosophy
01:04 < fenn> "let's mix diagrams from different domains, so you need to know a bunch of unrelated stuff to understand what i'm trying to say"
01:04 <@kanzure> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Idea/Why_Circuit_Ideas_are_Hidden
01:06 <@kanzure> this book looks okay, but it would be nice to see more of a historical perspective on the invention of certain circuits
01:07 < fenn> the little stick figures are really distracting
01:10 <@kanzure> when i flip through the horowitz book it is never quite clear to me why anyone knows anything about analog stuff
01:11 < fenn> the only thing that ever made sense to me while learning electronics was http://falstad.com/circuit/
01:11 < fenn> actually SEEING the current and voltage REALLY HELPS
01:11 < fenn> who would have thought
01:11 < nmz787_i> is horowitz the art of electronics?
01:11 < fenn> yes
01:12 < nmz787_i> cause i thought that has been pretty good
01:12 < fenn> i didn't like it
01:12 <@kanzure> i wish someone would have stopped me from playing with digital electronics stuff
01:12 < fenn> you need to learn V=IR and they skip over that too quickly
01:12 <@kanzure> like a fucking 555 timer, why was i wasting my time on that
01:12 < nmz787_i> 555s are great!
01:12 < fenn> when was this?
01:13 <@kanzure> yes but they are also obvious
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01:13 <@kanzure> fenn: oh, you know, 2002-2006
01:13 < fenn> 555 is for people who don't know how to make circuits out of transistors
01:13 < fenn> and before AVRs were invented/cheap
01:13 <@kanzure> i remember doing kits, but then also it was part of some high school classes
01:13 <@kanzure> the point is, most chips are insanely simple/obvious to figure out
01:13 <@kanzure> and therefore should not be the focus of your education
01:13 < nmz787_i> nah you can do PWM with 555s
01:13 < fenn> now that you can buy a microcontroller for $0.30 it doesn't make sense to spend $1.29 for a 555
01:13 < nmz787_i> to make motor controllers and dimmers
01:14 <@kanzure> i'm not saying it's useless
01:14 <@kanzure> i'm saying that it doesn't really teach you anything about electronics
01:14 <@kanzure> most of the digital electronics stuff can be inferred if you know anything about programming
01:14 < nmz787_i> they usually have better voltage tolerances than something like an AVR
01:14 < fenn> you can talk USB with your microcontroller, and do PWM, and play a MIDI tune on your motor coils
01:14 < nmz787_i> like they can go from 2 or 3 to 18 V
01:15 < fenn> wow i'll keep that in mind next time i have a 17V circuit
01:15 < nmz787_i> cars
01:15 < nmz787_i> tho it turns out car ratings are crazy
01:15 < fenn> voltage divider, voltage regulator, etc
01:16 < nmz787_i> they can do all sorts of weird shit and all the 'right' protection woulda taken me a few weeks to get all figured out and that project wasn't important enough so it got backlogged/canned
01:16 < fenn> cars are full of RF interference and horrible voltage swings
01:16 < nmz787_i> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1O3-jwrJn4zr42MAQcltEDqjT0Hx80D7JD2zUPDE4o3A/edit?usp=sharing
01:16 < nmz787_i> .title
01:16 < yoleaux> Beginning Electronics and Microcontrollers
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01:17 < fenn> i'm going to pretend that doesn't exist
01:17 < nmz787_i> i put it together
01:18 < fenn> all you need is an avr, a breadboard, a usb spi programmer, and a bunch of passive parts
01:18 < nmz787_i> that's at the end of the slideshow
01:18 < fenn> the arduino stuff solves that problem okay, but it's expensive with a whole class of kids
01:18 < nmz787_i> teensys are pretty cheap
01:18 < nmz787_i> or msp430s
01:18 < nmz787_i> then use energia to be arduino style
01:18 <@kanzure> but why bother with this stuff; it's like programming any other computer
01:18 < fenn> how much is a "teensy" and what is it exactly?
01:19 <@kanzure> in terms of basic electronics education, you should be teaching the other stuff
01:19 < fenn> kanzure: not really, it teaches you a lot about how computers are built; things you wouldn't learn normally like registers and interrupts and buses
01:19 < nmz787_i> the teensy was  a small avr, then it was an ARM ported to Arduino IDE and library and it was a single installer to get it up and running
01:19 < nmz787_i> then he updated to a faster ARM chip
01:19 < nmz787_i> like $19
01:19 < nmz787_i> the AVR teensy is cheaper
01:19 < fenn> ok whatever
01:19 <@kanzure> registers are almost always covered in introductory digital electronics classes
01:20 < nmz787_i> kanzure: they're practical
01:20 < nmz787_i> you can make stuff do stuff
01:20 <@kanzure> my high school class had a test where you had to either draw a circuit for a shift register or at least verbally explain it in great enough detail to not fail the test
01:20 < fenn> i'm talking about like attiny26, the $2 microcontroller with timers, PWM, ADC, serial port, lots of i/o and DIP package
01:20 < nmz787_i> yeah
01:20 < fenn> $19 for a microcontroller? that's stupid
01:21 < gradstudentbot> None of this data makes sense.
01:21 < nmz787_i> 72 MHz, lots of RAM
01:21 < fenn> it changes what you use it for because then you want to "conserve" your "arduino"
01:21 < fenn> i don't care about MHz or RAM
01:21 < nmz787_i> for the last two weeks or so I've been working on this NXP chip
01:21 < fenn> most of the time you just want to blink an LED and send something on a serial port
01:21 < nmz787_i> 204MHz triple core ARM
01:21 < nmz787_i> PITA let me tell you :P
01:21 < fenn> again, i don't care about your MHz
01:22 < nmz787_i> API/manual is huge
01:22 < nmz787_i> multiple APIs released by the company, then some open implementations, then some other weird shit bla blah
01:22 < nmz787_i> well the project is to emulate a spec called Low Pin Count which is 33MHz
01:22 <@kanzure> also, this is the sort of thing that should actually be taught instead of the other crap: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Electro-Mechanical_Analogies
01:22 < nmz787_i> so we are lookin at ASM on this thing
01:23 < fenn> kanzure: want to learn about analog? get a bag of transistors, some wires and capacitors and metal plates and a function generator and an oscilloscope
01:23 < nmz787_i> yeah pretty much
01:23 <@kanzure> uh what's wrong with writing some asm?
01:23 <@kanzure> i don't get it
01:23 < fenn> the fluidic analogy actually holds up pretty well, i dunno why it has such a bad rep
01:24 < nmz787_i> this is the $20 204MHz board I'm playing with now, sold as a $120 ish $ oscope/siggen/logic analyzer www.embeddedartists.com/products/app/labtool.php
01:24 < nmz787_i> but the firmware and software are not really great
01:24 < fenn> i have a $20 android cellphone with camera, touchscreen, hundreds of MB of flash storage, audio i/o, sensors, battery, etc etc etc
01:25 < nmz787_i> kanzure: nothing, just figuring out all the port registers and ISR crap and oh wait, the interrupt latency is longer than my data clock needs to be
01:25 < fenn> a standard programming environment, and way more MHz than that
01:25 < nmz787_i> oh let me try this other register that says you can hook it up to GPIO and it detects rising edge... oh but that has latency too
01:25 < nmz787_i> blah
01:25 < fenn> did i mention it fits in your pocket
01:25 < nmz787_i> oh look at the Serial GPIO module that can latch an external clock
01:25 < nmz787_i> blah
01:26 < nmz787_i> yeah but you can't actually get GPIO out of that easily
01:26 < fenn> 2 channel analog signal generator (40kHz BW)
01:26 < fenn> lol
01:27 < fenn> what are the voltages on their signal generators
01:27 < nmz787_i> you'd need to remove the camera port, or cut the data traces on it, somehow solder on, then hope you can use that as data input.. but the protocol requires tristate bus, i.e. going from output to input, so camera port cant handle that
01:27 < gradstudentbot> Hey, does anyone have an extra undergrad?
01:27 < fenn> is anything TTL anymore anyway?
01:27 < fenn> i2c is pretty accessible
01:28 < fenn> there's probably an SPI somewhere too
01:28 < nmz787_i> maybe
01:28 < fenn> sd card is basically spi
01:29 < nmz787_i> even the intel galileo uses GPIO via i2c link, so its port speeds are pretty limited
01:29 < fenn> these SOC's have so many ports and doodads
01:29 < fenn> it's getting the documentation that's the problem
01:30 < fenn> LabTool is a lot better than what i had only 6 years ago
01:31 < fenn> oh, for accessibility how about raspberrypi
01:32 < fenn> .c 99EUR in USD
01:32 < nmz787_i> http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,842,1018&Prod=ANALOG-DISCOVERY
01:32 < yoleaux> convert euro99 (euros) to US dollars = $136.98 (US dollars)
01:32 < nmz787_i> that is supposedly much much better than labtool
01:33 < nmz787_i> its a whole lab setup supposedly
01:33 < nmz787_i> http://digilentinc.com/Data/Products/ANALOG-DISCOVERY/Discovery_TRM_RevB_1.pdf
01:34 < fenn> you kids are so spoiled
01:34 < nmz787_i> my 4 ch oscope can do 250 MHz on each with 6MPts per channel
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01:35 < nmz787_i> since its an 8 bit ADC each data point is a byte... though I guess there can be overhead... but that's basically a gig just for data, not to mention whatever OS it has on it (which I'm noticing bogs down a bit on menu reaction times with all the channels on and the sig gen on too)
01:36 < nmz787_i> the Cypress PSoCs are cheap as of recent
01:36 < nmz787_i> http://www.cypress.com/?rid=92146
01:36 < nmz787_i> $4
01:36 < fenn> i think i'd rather have an analog tektronix scope for analog stuff
01:37 < nmz787_i> they have some analog built into the SOC
01:38 < fenn> i've noticed with computer displays like USB scopes, you miss out on the direct sub-second correlation between "something happens in the environment" and "something happens on the screen"
01:38 < nmz787_i> there was some other analog built-in SOCs from Maxim I think
01:38 < nmz787_i> but they are all used for power management these days I think
01:38 < fenn> too much latency between the scope and the display i mean
01:39 < nmz787_i> meh
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01:39 < nmz787_i> I can't see protocols anyway
01:39 < nmz787_i> as long as shit lines up in the scope reliably
01:39 < fenn> that's what bus pirate is for
01:39 < nmz787_i> eh
01:39 < fenn> why are you debugging protocols with a scope
01:39 < nmz787_i> bus pirate is pretty slow
01:39 < fenn> a scope is for designing analog circuits
01:39 < nmz787_i> digital is the new analog
01:39 < fenn> ok use a logic analyzer
01:39 < nmz787_i> haven't you heard?
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01:40 < nmz787_i> yeah but my logic analyzer is the labtool, which uses the same demo board that I was debugging, and that confused the driver situation
01:40 < fenn> the LabTool does 100MHz 11 channel logic analyzer
01:40 < gradstudentbot> I don't know what to tell you, I thought I would have graduated by now.
01:40 < fenn> oh i see
01:40 < fenn> you need another laptop :P
01:40 < nmz787_i> plus i didnt get the labtool before I got the oscope :P because I wanted 4 ch for my CCD project
01:41 < fenn> "The feature rich Windows software interface" is an anti-feature for me
01:41 < nmz787_i> for which?
01:41 < nmz787_i> I think labtool is totally open
01:41 < fenn> hm nevermind it uses QT
01:42 < nmz787_i> I'm not sure about the digilent
01:43 < fenn> so where's this $20 board you are talking about?
01:43 < nmz787_i> kanzure: do you know about this? I've got an email or two from them http://www.youngstartup.com/
01:43 < nmz787_i> http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/lpcxpresso/lpclink2.php
01:44 < nmz787_i> people have it working with libopencm3 so the toolchain can be all linux
01:44 < nmz787_i> but the IDE the company recommends is windows linux mac
01:44 < nmz787_i> based on Eclipse
01:45 < nmz787_i> manual is pretty long www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10503.pdf
01:46 < fenn> NXP LPC13xx
01:46 < nmz787_i> they have decent demos, but relatively crappy docs for a beginner
01:46 < fenn> TODO
01:46 < nmz787_i> the LPCLink2 is an LPC4370
01:46 < gradstudentbot> Got halfway through figuring out all the cell signalling molecules in psoriasis when the cells died and the data couldn't be replicated, so psoriasis is really hard to cure guys don't get it
01:46 < nmz787_i> has an 80MSPS ADC on board
01:46 < nmz787_i> 0.1 to 1.2Vpp though I believe
01:47 < nmz787_i> or close to that range
01:47 < fenn> wow that might be useful for software defined radio
01:47 < nmz787_i> yep
01:47 < nmz787_i> hackrf
01:47 < nmz787_i> uses it or something like it
01:47 < nmz787_i> the 4330 or 50
01:47 < nmz787_i> though they use the SGPIO
01:47 < nmz787_i> not the ADC
01:47 < nmz787_i> or maybe they use both
01:47 < nmz787_i> and use SGPIO to communicate, I'm not suer
01:48 < fenn> both would make sense
01:48 < nmz787_i> https://github.com/mossmann/hackrf/wiki
01:48 < nmz787_i> https://github.com/mossmann/hackrf/wiki/Hardware-Components#block-diagrams
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01:50 < fenn> weird. they use a 22MSPS analog frontend
01:51 < nmz787_i> and mention 40MiBs
01:51 < nmz787_i> but isn't a MiB about the same as a megabyte?
01:52 < fenn> "Send an email to Mike or submit a support request to Maxim if you want a copy." sigh
01:52 < nmz787_i> of?
01:52 < fenn> .c 1 MiB to MB
01:52 < yoleaux> convert 1 MiB (mebibyte) to megabytes = 1.049 MB (megabytes)
01:52 < fenn> register map for some analog component
01:53 < fenn> 2.3 to 2.7GHz transciever
01:53 < nmz787_i> maxim is just up the road from me
01:53 < fenn> god forbid someone make an unlicensed spectrum transmitter
01:53 < nmz787_i> :P
01:53 < fenn> maxim was always secretive and cagey
01:55 < nmz787_i> fenn: do you know a polymer chemist or materials scientist who is unemployed?
01:55 < nmz787_i> :D
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01:57 < fenn> 20Msps is not enough
01:57 < fenn> that means you can only decode "slow" wifi signals
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01:57 < gradstudentbot> It's not really significant, but there's definitely a trend.
01:57 < gradstudentbot> I think I just cured cancer. Wow.
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01:58 < ebowden> LOL
01:59 < fenn> i know of a guy i austin who's retired-ish, i forget his name
01:59 < sheena> heard of dnrs? http://sharonwachsler.com/freedom-ive-recovered-my-health/
01:59 < nmz787_i> fenn: where are you hanging out these days?
02:00 < fenn> sheena: chronic lime disease is a crock
02:00 < sheena> indeed. its the dnrs im interested in
02:02 < nmz787_i> fenn: http://github.com/OpenLabTools/OpenLabTools/wiki/Tutorials
02:02 < nmz787_i> They have the .stl files and instructions and information on the optical theory.
02:03 < nmz787_i> raspberry pi motorized microscope
02:03 < fenn> lumosity is also a crock
02:03 < nmz787_i> ok well its bedtime
02:05 < nmz787_i> fenn: if you're interested in continuing the laser cutter type project, but merge it with that microscope... I don't know what you'd want for pay, but maybe I could convince kanzure to pitch in with me to get you to work on it some more
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02:05 < fenn> jesus christ all this talk about how fantastic "dnrs" is but no explanation of what it is
02:06 < nmz787_i> instead of CO2 laser, I'd like to try mounting a blu-ray writer optical sled next to the microscope, and use video feedback to smooth out the motion of the stage
02:07 < nmz787_i> or adding a beam splitter and sending the laser from a focusable laser pointer down the microscope via its optics, which some papers have done with trinocular scopes
02:08 < nmz787_i> which could also be a route, figure out how to add my motors to an (mine or an new chinese ebay) trinocular scope
02:08 < sheena> i cant find a pirate of their dvd anywhere
02:08 < nmz787_i> the idea was to use a reticle though, so I wanted two separate optical columns actually
02:09 < nmz787_i> so it could be the existing laser cutter table you drew up, with two of those open source microscope setups above it
02:09 < nmz787_i> then the laser could be independent of the tracking optics
02:09 < fenn> or just use a binocular scope and live with "only" one video channel
02:09 < nmz787_i> so you could change the spot size by defocusing
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02:10 < nmz787_i> yeah, I think the trinocular means it has a camera port though
02:10 < fenn> is that common on inexpensive microscopes?
02:10 < nmz787_i> which then if you want to shove a laser in, depends on whether the objective is infinity corrected or not
02:11 < nmz787_i> though new chinese optics can be had that are
02:11 < nmz787_i> the new chinese trinoculars on ebay are like $180
02:11 < fenn> that's pretty good
02:11 < nmz787_i> but I think their stages are just the microscope slide holder
02:11 < nmz787_i> which I can't tell if would be OK or not
02:12 < fenn> back up a second, what are you trying to do?
02:12 < nmz787_i> say print a grid super small on my laser printer
02:12 < fenn> microfluidics?
02:12 < gradstudentbot> The thing about this particular theory is that it's excellent at predicting ethnic conflicts which have already happened.
02:12 < fenn> PDMS molds?
02:13 < nmz787_i> then shove that on the stage of a motorized microscope with motors that can do DC or microstepping (I've got geared versions of the latter)
02:13 < nmz787_i> watch the grid move with video camera
02:13 < nmz787_i> and use the velocity/acell/motion to feedback to the motorcontrol
02:13 < fenn> moire quadrature mask works ok
02:13 < nmz787_i> track the cross hairs of the grid
02:14 < nmz787_i> then the other optical column would be a blue laser
02:14 < nmz787_i> which would expose some photoresist
02:14 < nmz787_i> which would be a thin layer, on the same stage that the grid was on, but a fixed offset away
02:15 < fenn> so your laser is out of focus
02:15 < nmz787_i> they would be separate columns so adjustable
02:15 < fenn> but you can't see what the laser is doing and track the grid at the same time
02:16 < nmz787_i> the bluray drive would have some photodiodes in it that you might be able to use
02:16 < nmz787_i> otherwise you'd need to do a calibration map
02:16 < nmz787_i> you don't need to though, as I see it
02:16 < fenn> okay
02:16 < nmz787_i> since its the same stage, the video is just used for positioning and smoothing out and screw inconsistencies
02:17 < nmz787_i> if that can't be done realtime, I'm thinking it could be precomputed
02:17 < fenn> emc supports screw calibration profiles
02:17 < fenn> but not camera tracking
02:17 < nmz787_i> move all over the grid with constant motor speed, analyze acelleration profile of video
02:17 < nmz787_i> correct for that
02:18 < nmz787_i> i always mess up acceleration
02:18 < nmz787_i> the spelling
02:18 < nmz787_i> you might be able to do the same for focus
02:18 < nmz787_i> in case the screw is weird in the Z
02:18 < nmz787_i> or, towards the camera
02:19 < fenn> or your translation plane is not parallel to the focal plane
02:19 < nmz787_i> yeah, for that I'd thought to have a 3-point double ball joint mount
02:19 < fenn> that's a different concept than screw calibration though
02:19 < nmz787_i> like a hexapod only with 3
02:20 < nmz787_i> but yeah, those two could compound
02:20 < nmz787_i> and make things hard
02:20 < nmz787_i> hmm
02:20 < fenn> all hypothetical at this point
02:20 < fenn> vibration might screw things up
02:21 < nmz787_i> Simon Field says build it on a sand box
02:21 < fenn> backlash might be nonlinear/unresolvable
02:21 < fenn> heh a vat of corn starch
02:22 < fenn> do we have tractor beams yet
02:23 < nmz787_i> "If you put a pinhole in your stage near each of the three support legs, an image will be projected through it behind the stage. You can examine this projected image for focus clarity without the USB microscope. If you change the image to a simple picture of three point sources of light, you can focus it by hand the first time, then put a PIN photodiode at each projected spot (so you'd need nine photodiodes). If the stage goes out of 
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02:23 < fenn> nine photodiodes? not three?
02:24 < nmz787_i> but then I think you'd need to make sure those PIN diodes were coplanar with the translation plane
02:24 < fenn> i guess this is some kind of kinematic tilt table to correct for off axis alignment errors?
02:24 < nmz787_i> "The same trick lets you register multiple images in a panorama. As you move the stage, the image of the three dots moves until it hits another set of three photodiodes. Now you know how far you have moved, with an accuracy of a few tens of nanometers, depending on how far the diodes are from the holes in the stage."
02:24 < nmz787_i> yeah basically
02:25 < nmz787_i> that was when I was thinking of using DLP
02:25 < fenn> you can still use DLP :P
02:25 < nmz787_i> but then I found a paper showing that photoresist has interpixel noise in the developed product
02:26 < nmz787_i> so F that
02:26 < fenn> from diffraction?
02:26 < fenn> or switching sparkles
02:26 < nmz787_i> simon had said a while ago that they put tons of money into bluray beam shape, so just use those optics
02:26 < nmz787_i> they're certainly cheaper than dlp boxes
02:27 < fenn> yeah
02:27 < nmz787_i> i think the mirrors are just slightly smaller than the pixel to pixel center spacing
02:27 < fenn> i want to play with DLP to make 3d printer stuffs tho
02:27 < nmz787_i> or yeah some weird physics of the switching
02:28 < nmz787_i> kanzure sent me a cheap ebay DLP last year that I hacked with an msp430 to make it think the fan was running
02:28 < fenn> small pixels would just make a screen door effect
02:28 < nmz787_i> since the bulb was dead
02:28 < nmz787_i> I hooked up my old headlamp LED to the input of the color wheel and it works OK
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02:28 < nmz787_i> I could shine a laser pointer in there and see an OK image
02:28 < fenn> you can cure resin with it?
02:28 < nmz787_i> not very even lightting tho
02:29 < nmz787_i> I also don't know how well the DLP will stand up to 405nm
02:29 < fenn> laser pointers have terrible optics
02:29 < nmz787_i> longevity wise
02:29 < nmz787_i> yeah so the bluray is nice in that regard :)
02:30 < fenn> why would 405nm do anything to silicon mirrors
02:30 < nmz787_i> and has the focusing voice coil, maybe access to the focusing photodiodes (which also probably are used for overall power management to the laser, brightness feedback is correct, not current feedback )
02:30 < fenn> actually they probably sputter them with aluminum
02:30 < nmz787_i> its just getting to be higher energy
02:31 < nmz787_i> charges build up with photons, etc
02:31 < fenn> it's total power that matters, not energy
02:31 < nmz787_i> sure
02:31 < fenn> i mean you're not doing GW femtosecond pulses or anything
02:31 < nmz787_i> but freq helps
02:32 < nmz787_i> you can bust wattage into an IR laser and they still don't ionize air like a single photon of deep UV would
02:32 < nmz787_i> photons are quanta
02:33 < fenn> so they say
02:33 < nmz787_i> and thats how the laser produces em
02:33 < nmz787_i> anyway, yep
02:33 < fenn> well if your microscope has a slide, might as well use it
02:34 < fenn> 2 axis table i mbean
02:34 < fenn> blerf
02:34 < fenn> i should go to bed too
02:34 < nmz787_i> yeah maybe glue a few slides together then a plate onto the top of that
02:34 < nmz787_i> or make that riser thing from metal or something
02:34 < nmz787_i> i don't know how to convert the motor to mount on the scope tho
02:35 < nmz787_i> anyway
02:35 < nmz787_i> yeah, 'night
02:35 < nmz787_i> think about it, let me know tomorrow or something
02:35 < jrayhawk> is dnrs like neurofeedback
02:36 < fenn> jrayhawk: it is a coaching seminar neuroplastic dvd apparently
02:37 < fenn> "participants will learn to recognize the unconscious reactions associated with a Limbic System impairment and how to consciously interrupt the associated trauma cycle. Through various methodologies and repetitious neuroplasticity based exercises, participants are instructed on how to act back on the brain to restore normal Limbic System function."
02:38 < fenn> sounds like straight CBT to me
02:38 < gradstudentbot> This laproscopic camera is so easy to use.
02:38 < jrayhawk> huh
02:38 < fenn> .wik cbt
02:38 < yoleaux> "CBT may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cbt
02:38 < fenn> blah
02:39 < fenn> cognitive behavioral therapy.. it's a sort of logic debugging combined with practice
02:39 < jrayhawk> Yeah.
02:40 < fenn> the last thing people with MCS need is another shyster selling a DVD seminar coaching session of the same bullshit every doctor is trying to sell them
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02:40 < jrayhawk> also in what sense is chronic lyme infection bullshit
02:40 < jrayhawk> other than that the standard of care diagnostic criteria is insane
02:41 < fenn> well, for one, there is no lyme disease in the supposed cases
02:41 < QuantumG> there's some controversy over the diagnostic criteria, yeah.
02:41 < fenn> so that's a big red flag
02:41 < jrayhawk> no... lyme... disease...?
02:42 < QuantumG> rarity of cases makes diagnosis hard and there's a rarity of cases because diagnosis is hard.
02:42 < fenn> if borrellia is present you will see borrellia DNA on a PCR test
02:42 < jrayhawk> while I am willing to believe that alternative practicioners are a little overeager to diagnose stuff, I am also highly aware based on the scientific literature that the CDC is overeager to underdiagnose it.
02:42 < fenn> if it's rare how come "everyone has it"
02:43 < jrayhawk> Although the CDC came around about six months ago and actually admitted that their numbers are an order of magnitude too low
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02:43 < jrayhawk> Lyme can go cystic in the face of antibiotics.
02:43 < fenn> oh i'm sure there is undiagnosed lyme disease, but it's easy to diagnose
02:43 < jrayhawk> It's not easy to diagnose.
02:44 < fenn> please explain how you can get lyme disease and not have anti-borrellia antibodies or DNA
02:44 < jrayhawk> The false negative rate on the antibody test is enormous.
02:44 < jrayhawk> The DNA test would fail in the face of a latent cystic infection.
02:44 < jrayhawk> Though I agree the DNA test is a much better one than the rest of them.
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02:48 < jrayhawk> It will at least provide meaningful results when the infection flares back up.
02:49 < fenn> it's interesting that they mention postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome on that MCS page
02:50 < fenn> it's related to collagen deficiency (and possibly methylation?) and causes chronic adrenal overstimulation
02:51 < fenn> which would result in the stress dysfunction associated with chronic fatigue and the various "sensitivities"
02:52 < fenn> it's also something doctors don't know how to fix, for some reason
02:53 < fenn> an obvious mechanical/fluid problem ought to be easy to fix
02:54 < fenn> "here, wear these compression stockings and eat some vitamin C"
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03:15 < fenn> sheena: as far as i can tell, "DNRS" is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy
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09:14 < sheena1> ugh i lost my internet connection partway through the dnrs convo. was there any more? does nyone have a log? kanzure?
09:14 <@_archels> see topic
09:17 < sheena1> _archels: thanks
09:19 < sheena1> _archels: do you know what time zone it's in?
09:20 < eudoxia> PDT i think
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09:21 < sheena1> ty
09:23 < sheena1> fenn: i think its related, but set up a bit differently.. seems like its more about changing behaviour first, then thoughts/etc follow? im just interested in learning more about it and thought someone might have seen it before
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10:04 < chris_99> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emerging_technologies
10:04 < chris_99> theres some really neat stuff
10:04 < chris_99> on there
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10:54 < eudoxia> >Molecular assembler
10:54 < eudoxia> i wish wiki, i wish
10:55 < chris_99> one day
10:55 < chris_99> one day
10:56 < chris_99> we've got neutron guns, electron guns, we more or less could create arbitrary atoms i reckon if we spent the dough
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10:59 < eudoxia> i remember seeing something in kanzure's old mediawiki about an assembler using atom holography
11:03 <@kanzure> it didn't work
11:04 < eudoxia> aw
11:08 <@kanzure> http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/may-2014/saving-the-feynman-van
11:10 <@kanzure> "It was fellow Pasadena resident Michael Shermer, founder of the Skeptics Society, who told him about the van in 2012. Blackley knew right away that he had to help save it. “The universe is telling me I've gotta do this,” he says."
11:11 <@kanzure> well, whatever
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12:31 <@kanzure> eudoxia: besides, it requires impractically low temperatures
12:31 <@kanzure> 10:04 < tromp_> Ethereum's CH says "Ralph is interested in DAOs and also is assisting us in developing a new signature cryptosystem we are developing as a replacement for ECDSA"
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12:56 < cpopell`sknxxx> Ugh
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12:57 < eudoxia> ughhh
12:57 < eudoxia> tell him to go back to work on his book
12:57 < cpopell`> I interviewed with the chief legal counsel at that company, that was unpleasant
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12:58 <@kanzure> it's curious that ralph would choose to make his appearance in the cryptocurrency world by going straight to ethereum
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13:04 <@kanzure> 11:01 < maaku> kanzure: I actually applied for a job at nanorex some years ago, then bailed on the interview process after watching some videos of their product
13:06 < andytoshi> o.O i didn't know merkle was involved in that stuff
13:07 < andytoshi> everything this channel is about is a whole world i didn't know existed..
13:07 <@kanzure> it's because of a temporal anomaly
13:08 <@kanzure> you see, the singularity happened in 1969
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13:09 <@kanzure> i could have sworn that i fixed the images in nanoengineer.git's README
13:09 <@kanzure> i clearly remember editing the image urls
13:09 <@kanzure> but none of my git repos have this change?
13:12 < andytoshi> git log master --not origin/master
13:12 < andytoshi> oh, i guess "none" means none :P
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13:21 <@kanzure> hm i don't have WormGearAnimation1.gif
13:21 <@kanzure> aha, eudoxia has it
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13:25 < delinquentme> fenn, kanzure https://wit.ai/jobs per the convo on NLP
13:25 <@kanzure> .title
13:25 < yoleaux> Jobs
13:25 <@kanzure> ugh
13:25 <@kanzure> i hate these people already
13:38 < eudoxia> kanzure: all the files are linked to here http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Molecular_Machinery&action=edit
13:38 <@kanzure> eudoxia: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/7
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13:39 <@kanzure> there, now the readme is fixed up
13:40 < eudoxia> cool
13:40 < delinquentme> Is there a specific term used for animals which are raised to become food?
13:40 < delinquentme> 'livestock' ?
13:43 <@kanzure> "Hello Mr. Bryan Bishop, My Name is J Stampedo, and I've come across your fantastiuc wrapper. However, I've come across a limitation, and not being a developer myself, I don't know how I could include the namespace option: Below, I've included the error and the section where I believe it should be changed. I'd be happy to offer 25$ via paypal for the inclusion. Thanks in advance for you considerations."
13:45 < delinquentme> what codebase is this?
13:45 <@kanzure> he doesn't say :)
13:45 < eudoxia> i assumed python-brlcad
13:45 < eudoxia> cause wrapper
13:45 <@kanzure> i think https://github.com/kanzure/python-wmi-client-wrapper
13:45 <@kanzure> because i think this is the same person https://github.com/kanzure/python-wmi-client-wrapper/issues/3
13:46 < delinquentme> cool
13:46 < delinquentme> wish he had deeper pockets
13:46 < delinquentme> ask about his use for it
13:47 <@kanzure> i'm afraid to, this can lead only to more suffering
13:47 <@kanzure> "root/MicrosoftIISv2"
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13:47 <@kanzure> isn't IIS up to version 8 or 9 now?
13:47 <@kanzure> so he wants to use version 2?
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13:48 < cluckj> could be spoofing the ID
13:49 <@kanzure> cluckj: show me history of electrical circuit stuff
13:49 -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure
13:49 < cluckj> what kind of history?
13:50 < kanzure> there are bunches of people who like to theorize about memristors, but where's all the "philosophy of circuits" of people complaining about the lack of resistors, transistors, capacitors, etc.
13:50 < kanzure> i would imagine that, in the past, people were thinking about such things, right?
13:50 < cluckj> probably
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13:51 < kanzure> wikipedia's history sections on this topic are pathetic
13:51 < cluckj> that's pretty out of my field of expertise, but I'll ask people who know about it if you don't need it right now
13:52 < kanzure> no rush
13:53 < cluckj> you're looking for history about the development of electronic components?
13:53 < kanzure> most of electronics is presented as "and then god said, this is a low-pass band filter circuit" as opposed to "and then someone tinkered around for 30 years trying to figure out this circuit"
13:54 < cluckj> ah
13:54 < cluckj> that should be pretty easy for me to find
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15:05 < fenn> "kanzure> you see, the singularity happened in 1969" did i tell you that? i didn't know anybody else was aware of this fact
15:07 < fenn> a lot of basic electronics theory was laid down in the 1920's
15:08 < fenn> back when "radio" was as futuristic as "atomic" was in the 1950's, except any kid could build one from bits of wire
15:08 < kanzure> but weren't we wiring buildings and making giant electronic billboards in the 1800s?
15:08 < fenn> electrical, not electronic
15:08 < fenn> and that wasn't until 1900 either
15:09 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterworth_filter
15:09 < kanzure> maybe that robotwisdom page has something to say about this timeline
15:09 < fenn> i just love that name
15:09 < fenn> it reminds me of waffles i guess
15:10 < kanzure> yep he looks like a time traveler to me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorn_Barger
15:11 < kanzure> ugh i can't find the page
15:11 < gradstudentbot> I forgot to make a control group.
15:11 < kanzure> here we go
15:11 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20070105011641/http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/timeline/0000.html
15:11 < kanzure> hm. nope.
15:12 < fenn> jeez 1995?
15:12 < kanzure> 1925: Vannevar Bush's Product Integraph integrates complex curves using analog electronics
15:13 < kanzure> "IBM Type 603 Electronic Multiplier, 1946, the first electronic calculator" (1932)
15:13 < kanzure> that's disappointing
15:13 < fenn> Barger attempts to "map out a programmable taxonomy of human emotions." good luck without using neuroscience
15:14 < delinquentme> So I called the CDC... and As soon as I mentioned having something that sounded like a product
15:14 < delinquentme> BOILERPLATE statement about not backing products + happily ushered me to contact the FDA
15:14 < kanzure> "1821: Faraday's electric motor" okay, well, surely the motor was being used in circuits between 1821 and.. uh, later stuff.
15:14 < delinquentme> sigh.
15:14  * delinquentme needs hugs
15:14 < kanzure> why were you bothering the CDC? wtf
15:15 < delinquentme> I think I need to approach someone from linked in who works at the CDC
15:15 < fenn> because he's on the verge of infecting millions of pigs with contaminated whatever broth
15:15 < delinquentme> ^
15:15 < fenn> delinquentme: don't do that
15:16 < fenn> i mean, don't infect millions of pigs...
15:16 < delinquentme> Or to sort out whether handling wound healing within pig populations, which are notoriously brutal to one another ... might lower disease transfer rates
15:16 < kanzure> "From an early age Wheatstone took an active interest in electricity. As a youngster he had bought a book by Volta and had duplicated many of the experiments there"
15:16 < kanzure> oh i wonder what was in that book
15:16 < fenn> so volta actually did stuff?
15:17 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, I'll be sure to snore that science lamp right away.
15:17 < kanzure> quickly, to the bookatorium!
15:17 < fenn> i got nothin by volta
15:18 < kanzure> wikipedia doesn't mention said book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Volta
15:18 < fenn> vroom vroom *fires up teh chrome*
15:19 < fenn> god i'm sick of the upgrade game
15:19 < gradstudentbot> Are there any of those hamster ovaries left?
15:20 < kanzure> they were all eaten
15:20 < kanzure> nom nom
15:20 < fenn> libgen doesn't work in dillo
15:21 < kanzure> "These letters of Mr Volta contain some experiments between muscle and muscle of prepared frogs and in live frogs, which I published as my own. I cannot do less injustice to myself, than observe, that I made these experiments at Turin, in "
15:22 < kanzure> oh this is probably galvani complaining about volta stealing stuff
15:22 < kanzure> http://books.google.com/books?id=Ql0UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR8&dq=volta+experiments&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hjhtU6aaKOez8AGRsYHgAw&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=volta%20experiments&f=false
15:22 < fenn> well i found something in russian
15:23 < fenn> how do i use .tr
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15:24 < kanzure> does this mean that the start of electronic circuit stuff was just people poking around at nervous systems?
15:25 < fenn> yes
15:25 < fenn> unless you count the "baghdad battery" which was used for electroplating
15:26 < kanzure> mostly just things that could be (mis)construed to be graph-like
15:27 < fenn> i'm going to start calling things "animaltronic" to reflect the original nomenclature
15:27 < fenn> the primordial charge carrying particle is the animaltron
15:28 < kanzure> "fenn's reformed encyclopedia of modern science and technology"
15:30 < kanzure> i think animal was because of animation
15:30 < kanzure> so it should probably just be animatron and animatronics
15:30 < kanzure> .ety animal
15:30 < yoleaux> animal (n.): "early 14c. (but rare before c.1600, and not in KJV, 1611), "any living creature" (including humans), from Latin animale "living being, being which breathes," neuter of animalis "animate, living; of the air," from anima "breath, soul; a  …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=animal
15:30 < fenn> .ety animatronic
15:30 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that.
15:31 < fenn> breathing doesn't have anything to do with it, that's "spirit"
15:31 < fenn> .d anima
15:31 < yoleaux> anima (/ˈanɪmə/): n. 1. (In Jungian psychology) the feminine part of a man’s personality — http://is.gd/3MOE5T
15:31 < fenn> wtbloodyfuck
15:32 < fenn> "vital impulse"
15:32 < fenn> "death instinct"???
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15:33 < fenn> "racial unconscious"
15:33 < fenn> okay there's some weird stuff in here
15:34 < kanzure> uh oh the weird part of the internet is acting up again
15:34 < fenn> it's not the internet, it's the thesaurus
15:35 < kanzure> any society is only as warped as the square of the number of connections
15:35 < kanzure> *number of internet connections
15:35 < kanzure> no wait, that's a lower bound
15:35 < fenn> upper bound
15:35 < kanzure> up, down, whatever
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15:36 < gradstudentbot> Paper submitted.
15:36 < fenn> unless your warpage factor is an imaginary number, in which case it's sideways
15:36 < kanzure> is there an ontology that doesn't have a basis in vitalism for electronics and basic biology
15:36 < cluckj> kanzure, so a lot of the stuff about ICs and electronic components is tied up in larger technologies that they were a part of
15:37 < kanzure> i know where ICs come from
15:37 < cluckj> like radio, radar, the shift from analog to digital computing
15:37 < gradstudentbot> Yeah, but biobricks don't even work.
15:37  * fenn highfives gradstudentbot 
15:37 < gradstudentbot> I'll be at the microscope.
15:39 < fenn> you know if radar hadn't been bogged down with military secrecy bullshit and export controls, we'd all have passive microwave vision built into our cellphones
15:40 < cluckj> lol
15:40 < kanzure> "As nerves are conductors of a fluid, the properties of which are fimilar to that of electricity, tying them, it appeared to me, could not prevent its paffage through them. In confequence of this reafoning, I tied the nerves of feveral frogs, but not one of them afforded the phenomena I expected."
15:40 < kanzure> yes.. "the properties of which are fimilar to that of electricity"
15:40 < kanzure> *cough*
15:41 < kanzure> "I at firft thought this derived from a difference in the conftitution of the animals; but as one day I obferved, that in the fame frog one leg was completely motionlefs, whilft the other was agitated by violent convulfions, I entirely gave up this opinion."
15:42 < fenn> nerves don't really conduct electric current, it's a traveling wave of depolarization
15:42 < gradstudentbot> Should I still be wearing gloves?
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15:43 < kanzure> "If the ligature was at a very fmall diftance from the mufcles, an extremely minute portion of artificial electricity was fufficient to put into action the leg of the animal; but if the ligature remained in contact with the mufcles, to btain the fame phenomena a quantity was required, which proportioned to the other, was enormous."
15:43 < kanzure> artificial electricity?
15:44 < fenn> you heard the man
15:44  * fenn points to the "no philosophy" sign
15:45 < fenn> was he using leyden jars?
15:45 < kanzure> at one point yes
15:46 < kanzure> "The coats of the nerves, then, are bad conductors."
15:46  * fenn puts on his conductor's coat and hat and looks at his pocketwatch
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15:51 < FourFire> heh
15:51 < HEx2> cd
15:51 < HEx2> oops
15:51 < kanzure> "google doesn't show page numbers
15:52 < kanzure> "Section iii" well what the hell page is that
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16:00 < fenn> "There is interest in reviving the CNC workshop event ...  The Tech Shop in Allen park MI- a Detroit suburb, has offered to host the event. At this time it is strictly a discussion of the possibilities."
16:01 < kanzure> "Previous to the difcovery of Galvani, it was afferted, that animals contained electricity. Mr. Nicholfon, as far as I know, was the firft who fet on the foot any experiments to afcertain the quantity a man was capable of containing. "If we fuppofe," fays he, "the bulk of a man to be only three folid feet, or 51.84 folid inches, the natural electricity of this mafs, will be equal to the charge of a battery of upwards of 15,000 fquare feet."
16:02 < delinquentme> kanzure, is this statement about 'bothering' the cdc
16:02 < delinquentme> is this some kind of love you keep for just me?
16:02 < kanzure> it is about shocking a man with 15,000 sq ft of electricity
16:02 < delinquentme> You don't say stupid shit like that to everyone right?
16:02 < fenn> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-teach-1000-kids-that-death-is-wrong  ok aside from being a book this seems like a thing
16:03 < kanzure> delinquentme: i highly recommend not spontaneously calling the cdc
16:04 < delinquentme> Oh so that was supposed to be helpful advice
16:04 < kanzure> yes
16:04 < delinquentme> interesting
16:04 < kanzure> whatever
16:05 < kanzure> "a complete treatise of electricity" (1795) http://books.google.com/books?id=LV0UAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Complete+Treatise+Of+Electricity&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6UJtU4irOIq0yATd44CoAQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=A%20Complete%20Treatise%20Of%20Electricity&f=false
16:06 < kanzure> apparently it was called "layden phial" before it was called "layden jar"
16:07 < kanzure> ergm, leyden phial and leyden jar
16:07 < kanzure> .ety leyden phial
16:07 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that.
16:07 < kanzure> http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Leyden+phial
--- Log opened Fri May 09 14:58:00 2014
14:58 -!- gnusha [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap
14:58 -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki
14:58 -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Sun Apr 27 17:38:20 2014]
14:58 [Users ##hplusroadmap]
14:58 [@_archels     ] [ d3vz3r0     ] [ justanotheruser] [ sivoais    ] 
14:58 [@heath        ] [ dbolser     ] [ juul           ] [ smeaaagle  ] 
14:58 [@ParahSailin  ] [ delinquentme] [ kanzure        ] [ strages__  ] 
14:58 [ Adifex       ] [ devrandom   ] [ kardan         ] [ strangewarp] 
14:58 [ andytoshi    ] [ dingo       ] [ kyknos         ] [ streety    ] 
14:58 [ apex         ] [ drewbot     ] [ lichen         ] [ superkuh   ] 
14:58 [ AshleyWaffle_] [ echo[1]     ] [ maaku          ] [ ThomasEgi  ] 
14:58 [ Auctus       ] [ ElixirVitae ] [ nmz787_i       ] [ Twey       ] 
14:58 [ audy         ] [ entelechy   ] [ nsh            ] [ Urchin     ] 
14:58 [ augur        ] [ ephialtes480] [ pasky          ] [ Viper168   ] 
14:58 [ balrog       ] [ FourFire    ] [ phryk          ] [ Vutral     ] 
14:58 [ bkero        ] [ gnusha      ] [ QuantumG       ] [ xmj        ] 
14:58 [ blueskin     ] [ Guest79571  ] [ realzies       ] [ yoleaux    ] 
14:58 [ brownies     ] [ helleshin   ] [ rk[1]          ] [ yorick     ] 
14:58 [ Burnin8      ] [ HEx1        ] [ ruphos         ] [ Zhwazi     ] 
14:58 [ catern       ] [ ivan`       ] [ sapiosexual    ] 
14:58 [ cluckj       ] [ jrayhawk    ] [ saurik         ] 
14:58 [ cpopell`     ] [ juri_       ] [ sheena1        ] 
14:58 -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 69 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 66 normal]
14:58 -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010
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15:24 < kanzure> someone kicked the server in the gnu nads
15:26 < fenn> it really gnurts
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15:28 < fenn> when confusion reigns it pores over cats and dogs living together
15:33 < kanzure> so was that frog book the book of experiments?
15:34 < kanzure> frogtronics.. ribbeting.
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15:52 < QuantumG> these biotech news sites seem like the ghettos of the Internet
15:53 < kanzure> the entirety of biotech investing seems like a giant ghetto
15:53 < kanzure> some "oral histories" http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Automation
15:53 < QuantumG> http://www.genengnews.com/insight-and-intelligence/poly-his-tags-improve-protein-purification/77900121/
15:53 < QuantumG> random example
15:56 < QuantumG> 20,500 followers on twitter.. that's not bad.
15:56 < kanzure> a lot of it is just infotainment
15:57 < QuantumG> yeah, looking at it from the community perspective.. not seeing much evidence of any.
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16:06 < fenn> kanzure: maybe the reason there's no "c2.com for hardware" is that the lessons learned from programming apply equally well to hardware?
16:07 < kanzure> "In 1849, while at Königsberg, Helmholtz measured the speed at which the signal is carried along a nerve fibre. At that time most people believed that nerve signals passed along nerves immeasurably fast.[6] He used a recently dissected sciatic nerve of a frog and the calf muscle to which it attached. He used a galvanometer as a sensitive timing device, attaching a mirror to the needle to reflect a light beam across the room to a scale which ...
16:07 < kanzure> ... gave much greater sensitivity.[6] Helmholtz reported[7][8] transmissions speeds in the range of 24.6 - 38.4 meters per second.[6]"
16:07 < kanzure> fenn: i doubt it, there are lots of differences
16:08 < kanzure> fenn: and weird economies of scale that impact a lot of what you can do
16:08 < fenn> scaling exists in programming too
16:08 < kanzure> "Helmholtz showed that different combinations of resonator could mimic vowel sounds: Alexander Graham Bell in particular was interested in this but, not being able to read German, misconstrued Helmholtz' diagrams as meaning that Helmholtz had transmitted multiple frequencies by wire—which would allow multiplexing of telegraph signals—whereas, in reality, electrical power was used only to keep the resonators in motion. Bell failed to ...
16:08 < kanzure> ... reproduce what he thought Helmholtz had done but later said that, had he been able to read German, he would not have gone on to invent the telephone on the harmonic telegraph principle.[10][11][12][13]"
16:09 < kanzure> helmholtz seems like an alright guy
16:09 < fenn> helmholtz for president!
16:10 < fenn> the telephone seems so obvious now it's hard to imagine not being able to conceive how it works
16:11 < fenn> i'm pretty sure with a fast enough telegraph you could transmit voice sounds
16:12 < fenn> sort of like ascii art
16:14 < fenn> wtf c2 "has been around since 1995"?
16:15 < kanzure> it's old school
16:16 < QuantumG> a sensible theory of electromagnetic fields was rejected for a generation.
16:16 < fenn> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiIsNotWikipedia
16:17 < QuantumG> it's a bit hard to conceive of a microphone when your theory of electromagnetism is newtonian
16:17 < fenn> how did newtonian electromagnetism work?
16:17 < QuantumG> point sources and action-at-a-distance.. just like gravity
16:18 < fenn> uh. then how did wires work
16:18 < QuantumG> they didn't
16:18 < fenn> right
16:18 < QuantumG> even today, you open a physics textbook and read about Coulumb's law.
16:19 < fenn> .wik coulomb's law
16:19 < QuantumG> look at this shit: https://www.google.com/search?q=Coulomb%27s+law&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=T2JtU-KfDcihkAXG2YGwCw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=905
16:19 < yoleaux> "Coulomb's law, or Coulomb's inverse-square law, is a law of physics describing the electrostatic interaction between electrically charged particles. The law was first published in 1785 by French physicist Charles Augustin de Coulomb and was essential to the development of the theory of electromagnetism." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb%27s_law
16:20 < QuantumG> it's just like the Bohr model of the hydrogen atom.. totally wrong but they keep teaching it because for some reason it's seen as a virtue to pollute fresh minds with bad visualizations
16:20 < fenn> can you link to an image instead
16:21 < QuantumG> http://scienceres-edcp-educ.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2012/07/sec_phys_electrostatics_coulombLaw-940x705.jpg
16:21 < fenn> uh, that's not valid?
16:22 < QuantumG> of course not.. the energy isn't in the charges.. there's no action at a distance.. the energy is in the field.. the force is exchanged by photons
16:22 < fenn> take two spheres, one positively charged and one negatively charged, they'll have a force of 1/r^2 between them
16:23 < QuantumG> if the photons can move between them, sure. Stick a sheet of zinc between them and the force goes away. Stupid Coulumb's model doesn't explain that.
16:24 < fenn> what color are these photons
16:25 < fenn> a zero frequency wave is as silly a theory as action at a distance
16:25 < QuantumG> if you're taught point sources and action-at-a-distance first, you'll always think about it like that and the zinc sheet experiment will be the exception that makes you switch models and start thinking about fields
16:25 < fenn> point sources are way easier to calculate by hand than numerical field simulations
16:26 < fenn> that's probably why they teach it that way
16:26 < QuantumG> yawn, I just remembered it's pointless talking to you.
16:26 < fenn> i don't think it's too much to ask about the supposed photons flying around everywhere that i can't see
16:27 < QuantumG> you've heard of radio, right?
16:27 < fenn> yes
16:28 < fenn> if you move a charged sphere up and down in a sinusoudal pattern, you'll get a radio wave, right?
16:30 < fenn> so what's the wavelength of a stationary charge
16:31 < fenn> Some Frequently Asked Questions About Virtual Particles 2. How can they be responsible for attractive forces?
16:32 < fenn> ok he totally lost me
16:37 < fenn> if i have two radio antennas 90 degrees out of phase, their charges will be opposite; do they attract each other?
16:39 < fenn> actually 180 degrees out of phase
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16:44 < fenn> did i do something wrong?
16:45 < kanzure> have you tried ##electronics
16:48 < fenn> i was more interested in what QuantumG was trying to say, but apparently i'm pointless (for reasons that are unknown to me)
16:51 < kanzure> because you didn't like spacex or bitcoin when he brought it up
16:52 < maaku> fenn: opposite charges attract
16:52 < fenn> i just thought spacex wasn't that interesting (more rockets)
16:52 < maaku> nothing to do with waves here
16:52 < kanzure> maaku: do you also subscribe to virtual photons?
16:53 < fenn> maaku did you actually read further back than 5 lines?
16:53 < maaku> ?
16:54 < fenn> (also i think the answer is yes, the radio antennas attract)
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16:54 < maaku> kanzure: it's a meaningless question. do you believe in the number 3?
16:54 < kanzure> virtual photons are supposedly the explanation for magnetic and electric fields
16:55 < maaku> no, they are a conceptual model that helps explain electomagnatism
16:55 < maaku> i believe in electomagnatism, no matter what physically true model you use to explain it
16:56 < kanzure> so virtual photons are not physically true..?
16:56 < maaku> gah, now you'll argue over what physically true means
16:56 < kanzure> no
16:56 < fenn> maaku: is the casimir effect predicted in your electromagnetism?
16:56 < maaku> fenn: yes?
16:57 < fenn> would it have been predicted if you didn't know about it beforehand?
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16:57 < maaku> based on what we know of fundamental physics, yes
16:57 < fenn> why?
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17:01 < fenn> it's perfectly acceptable to come up with an explanation that doesn't involve virtual photons
17:03 < kanzure> fenn: you'll enjoy (snark) this part of the article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle#Manifestations
17:04 < fenn> i really wish people would just stop talking about particles
17:04 < fenn> there are quantized wavelets, that's it
17:05 < maaku> fenn: there's nothing wrong with a multi-model understanding of the universe
17:06 < maaku> i guess we should stop talking about atoms, cause they don't exist
17:06 < fenn> okay, maybe i should have said "talking about particles is confusing because things act like waves"
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17:08 < fenn> .wik atom laser
17:08 < yoleaux> "An atom laser is a coherent state of propagating atoms. They are created out of a Bose–Einstein condensate of atoms that are output coupled using various techniques." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_laser
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17:11 < kanzure> "Macroscopic violation of special relativity" http://arxiv.org/pdf/0708.0681.pdf
17:13 < fenn> wtf why does arxiv hate wget
17:13 < kanzure> --user-agent="not w-get"
17:16 < kanzure> http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.1237 "Virtual Particle Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics - a non-dualistic model of QM with a natural probability interpretation"
17:16 < kanzure> "An interpretation of non-relativistic quantum mechanics is presented in the spirit of Erwin Madelung's hydrodynamic formulation of QM and Louis de Broglie's and David Bohm's pilot wave models. The aims of the approach are as follows: 1) to have a clear ontology for QM, 2) to describe QM in a causal way, 3) to get rid of the wave-particle dualism in pilot wave theories, 4) to provide a theoretical framework for describing creation and ...
17:16 < fenn> "virtual particles were introduced for describing the interaction between an electron and positron"
17:16 < kanzure> ... annihilation of particles, and 5) to provide a possible connection between particle QM and virtual particles in QFT. These goals are achieved, if the wave function is replaced by a fluid of so called virtual particles. It is also assumed that in this fluid of virtual particles exist a few real particles and that only these real particles can be directly observed. This has relevance for the measurement problem in QM and it is found that ...
17:16 < kanzure> ... quantum probabilities arise in a very natural way from the structure of the theory. The model presented here is very similar to a recent computational model of quantum physics and recent Bohmian models of QFT."
17:16 < kanzure> hrmph
17:17 < fenn> what is a pilot wave?
17:17 < kanzure> .wik pilot wave
17:17 < yoleaux> "In theoretical physics, the pilot wave theory was the first known example of a hidden variable theory, presented by Louis de Broglie in 1927." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave
17:18 < fenn> Yves Couder and co-workers recently discovered a macroscopic pilot wave system in the form of walking droplets. This system exhibits behaviour of a pilot wave, heretofore considered to be reserved to microscopic phenomena.
17:19 < fenn> ok that makes sense
17:19 < fenn> a walking droplet is just a bouncing sphere of water on top of a pool of water
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17:23 < fenn> oh here we go again with the pig slime
17:27 < kanzure> hm that virtual particle fluid paper gives some nods to lee smolin
17:30 < fenn> "evanescent modes [virtual photons in this paper] have a purely imaginary wave number" so that answers that
17:32 < fenn> that "special relativity violation" paper is interesting in that it straightforwardly demonstrates "faster than light travel"
17:33 < fenn> "the zero phase shift of spreading evanescent modes implies that barriers are crossed in zero time"
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17:35 < fenn> why isn't this front page news
17:35 < fenn> SCIENTISTS TRAVEL FASTER THAN LIGHT!!! OMG
17:36 < kanzure> nsh: poke
17:41 < kanzure> if something like "openbazaar" gets any amount of traction, there might be a vacuum effect where anyone selling any sort of industrial equipment will end up "on top" of the market
17:41 < kanzure> oh man, it's friday again?
17:44 < fenn> the internet causes time dilation
17:45 < fenn> why would you sell on openbazaar vs just ebay or amazon
17:45 < kanzure> ebay and amazon will shut you down if the fda looks at you sternly
17:46 < fenn> hm okay
17:46 < fenn> can't they just raid your factory
17:46 < kanzure> "nobody should be allowed to sell a $100 atomic force microscope, therefore we will confiscate your bank accounts and uh, steal your drugs because they are drugs"
17:46 < kanzure> well.... yes.
17:46 < kanzure> unless it's not in the united states
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17:48 < fenn> "that is a very interesting food processor you have, mister ;\'DROP DATABASE *"
17:49 < fenn> ultrasonic shaving kit
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17:49 < fenn> ultrasonic imaging potpourri dispenser
17:50 < fenn> how do they know anything is anything
17:50 < fenn> "product description: scientific industrial crap, too complicated for you to worry about"
17:53 < FourFire> hehe
17:56 < fenn> .title http://web.archive.org/web/20070103092720/http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html
17:56 < yoleaux> Brown's human universals
17:56 < fenn> this is a pretty long list
17:57 < fenn> "tools to make tools" is a human universal?
17:57 < fenn> i thought i was special
17:59 < cluckj> kanzure, phial --> vial
18:00 < kanzure> *distilled* scientific industrial crap
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18:01 < kanzure> plasmonically modulated scientific industrial goop
18:01 < cluckj> mmm goop
18:01 < kanzure> could we claim it's functional art
18:02 < fenn> you can claim it's anything you want
18:02 < kanzure> i mean would it work
18:02 < fenn> try it and find out
18:03 < fenn> when the customs department calls you have to act very snooty and condescending
18:03 < fenn> or they won't believe you're a "real" artist
18:03 < kanzure> i'm not sure they even call in the first place?
18:04 < fenn> in soviet russia...
18:05 < kanzure> at this point i can't even remember what comprehensve reform of the fda is supposed to look like
18:08 < dingo> free aaron schwartz!
18:08 < dingo> oh wait...
18:08  * dingo slinks back to his idle state
18:09 < fenn> they could relax the requirement that drugs are for treatment of a particular disease (as defined by the american medical association?)
18:09 < fenn> separating the requirements of efficacy and safety would be a huge deal
18:10 < fenn> relaxing the standards of effiacy would reduce the cost of trials to the point where small businesses/startups actually have a chance
18:11 < fenn> guidelines to reverse and prevent general corruption and collusion with pharmaceutical companies
18:12 < fenn> like, why is tylenol not banned?
18:12 < fenn> or at least made more difficult to get, a prescription or something
18:12 < fenn> .g deaths due to tylenol
18:12 < yoleaux> http://www.propublica.org/article/tylenol-mcneil-fda-behind-the-numbers
18:13 < FourFire> kanzure, gwern is asking about the extropy archives
18:13 < fenn> 980 deaths in a year to drugs containing acetaminophen.
18:14 < fenn> that's more than all nuclear accidents ever
18:15 < cluckj> *accidents*
18:15 < fenn> hiroshima and nagasaki were intentional
18:16 < cluckj> how many of those 980 deaths a year are overdoses?
18:16 < fenn> all of them?
18:17 < fenn> what do you mean
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18:18 < cluckj> I mean accidental overdoses
18:18 < fenn> more than half
18:19 < cluckj> dayum
18:22 < fenn> i think everything should be tested for safety, with the amount of testing proportional to the number of users, regardless whether it's intended for "medical" or "nutritional supplement" or "cosmetic" use
18:22 < fenn> and anyone should be able to sell anything, provided the relevant safety warnings are conveyed
18:24 < delinquentme> Whats the non-binding contract for intended purchases called?
18:25 < fenn> a non-binding contract is an oxymoron
18:25 < fenn> "letter of intent"?
18:26 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_intent
18:27 < fenn> or memorandum of understanding
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19:18 < kanzure> "Another favorite pastime [of Seymour Cray] was digging a tunnel under his home; he attributed the secret of his success to "visits by elves" while he worked in the tunnel: "While I'm digging in the tunnel, the elves will often come to me with solutions to my problem.""
19:27 < fenn> better than eating lead paint
19:27 < kanzure> .wik anatoli bugorski
19:27 < yoleaux> "Anatoli Petrovich Bugorski (Russian: Анатолий Бугорский; 1942 – ) is a Russian scientist who was involved in an accident with a particle accelerator in 1978." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski
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19:29 < kanzure> "Patient shows no signs of proton-based superpowers."
19:31 < fenn> are there special cad programs for plumbing? like is there a split between schematic/layout like with electronics?
19:32 < kanzure> i think they call that large-scale hydraulics
19:33 < kanzure> http://us.123rf.com/450wm/munlika/munlika1211/munlika121100007/16150733-structure-of-oil-and-chemical-factory-in-day-time.jpg
19:34 < fenn> i don't see anything about large scale hydraulics except civil engineering stuff (rivers and geology)
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19:37 < kanzure> hm
19:38 < kanzure> well, you certainly don't call a plumber when you need to cad out your 1000 km^2 oil refinery
19:38 < fenn> wow this is like exactly what i want to do http://lims.mae.cornell.edu/research/hydraulics.cfm
19:40 < kanzure> .title
19:40 < yoleaux> School of Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering
19:40 < kanzure> http://lims.mae.cornell.edu/media/hydraulics_videos.cfm
19:40 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MbR6DhkV_Y
19:40 < yoleaux> McKibben Hex
19:41 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6mNK5pqZ4Y
19:41 < yoleaux> Meso-Scale Hydraulic Quadraped Robot
19:43 < kanzure> "piezoelectric actuated quadraped" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwntoH2vjbo
19:45 < fenn> the piezo is not as interesting
19:46 < fenn> i came up with the water hydraulic mckibben robot idea like 6 years ago and never actually did it
19:55 < fenn> " Bugorski was taken to a clinic in Moscow where the doctors could observe his expected demise. However, Bugorski survived and even completed his Ph.D." always good to keep your priorities straight
19:56 < fenn> he is still alive
20:00 < fenn> its a little tasteless to put this on mentalfloss.com
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20:12 < fenn> "The exchange of talent for the good life made for an extraordinarily productive relationship between the state and the scientists. The science towns helped ensure the Soviet Union's standing as a military and intellectual superpower, and the state paid them back by ensuring their continued comfort. .. In 1990 science funding suddenly dropped about 90 percent. Unlike military-factory towns, which
20:12 < fenn> also lost their funding overnight, the science towns had no industry to convert to civilian production. Unlike their colleagues living in other cities, the scientists in science towns could not switch to careers in finance or the service industries: most of them lived hours away from anything that wasn't a research institute, and they had no money to move. George Soros's organization, gave out
20:12 < fenn> small grants to Russian exact scientists. Now most of that funding has dried up. Many find ways to procure cheaper produce, even to live off the land with tiny plots they stake out outside the towns.the buildings are not crumbling and the residents are not deserting. In fact, the "brain drain" that has been the bugbear of post-Soviet science and technology, whose best and brightest are lured to
20:12 < fenn> the West, has barely affected the science towns. most young people would like to stay in the towns and in the sciences. Protvino, population 40,000, is one of the youngest science towns. When the first scientists moved here in the late 1960s and '70s, their kids kept dragging home rusty helmets and unused ammo ribbons they'd found while digging around the old trenches. Construction workers still
20:12 < fenn> find human remains.
20:14 < fenn>  Zone A for the scientific institutes (all nine of them), Zone B for greenery, and Zone C for living (in any one of three types of nine-story concrete-block buildings). Nearly 30 years after the town was built, its population still only about 20,000, the experiment in stasis can be deemed successful. Researchers at the Institute of Soil and Photosynthesis have organized the School of Practical
20:14 < fenn> Fruit and Vegetable Gardening. with instruction on tree-wrapping and crown-trimming, then eventually graduate to beekeeping. "Every plot should have at least two or three beehives," he says emphatically. "That's good for pollination and teaching your children, both."
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20:22 < fenn> Kids elsewhere may have lived for legends of their football or fishing exploits, but all our adventures focused on the Synchrophasotron. Zarubin manages to compare it to a castle, a monastery, and an abbey. The point is, the Synchrophasotron was built to stand for centuries - not unlike the Protvino tunnel except, of course, that it was actually completed. local researchers, who'd been counting
20:22 < fenn> on conducting future experiments in Protvino, came up with the brilliant idea of putting a new accelerator right where the old one was. they put the Nuclotron, a superconducting accelerator of nuclei and heavy ions, just below the Synchrophasotron. "Guys need their garages. Russian monasteries were always the repositories not only of spirituality, but also of skills. And technical culture,
20:22 < fenn> engineering culture, the belief in scientific values - all this has almost a religious quality. In times of trouble Russia often lost its churches, but never its monasteries."
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20:24 < fenn> this all sounds great except for the forced labor camps and unmarked graves
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20:26 < fenn> .d dubnium
20:26 < yoleaux> dubnium (/ˈdʌbnɪəm/): n. The chemical element of atomic number 105, a very unstable element made by high-energy atomic collisions — http://is.gd/1Z8bbC
20:27 < kanzure> dubiousnum
20:28 < kanzure> so do those science towns have internet
20:28 < fenn> http://www.protvino.ru
20:29 < fenn> http://www.dubna.ru
20:29 < kanzure> uhh... "Дорогие ветераны Великой Отечественной войны, уважаемые жители наукограда Протвино! Примите самые сердечные и теплые поздравления с великим и священным для всех нас праздником – 69-ой годовщиной Победы в Великой Отечественной войне! ...
20:30 < kanzure> ... Воистину – это великая дата, имеющая огромное значение не только для нашего народа, но и для всего мира, спасенного от фашистской чумы."
20:30 < kanzure> i can't really read this but i'm 100% certain this is propaganda bullshit
20:30 < fenn> lol
20:30 < fenn> "i see an exclamation point!"
20:30 < kanzure> well it's not like i'm completely fluent
20:31 < fenn> do you know any russian?
20:31 < fenn> i can just about pronounce half of the letters
20:31 < kanzure> he aосtatoho
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20:36 < fenn> "Dear World War II veterans, dear citizens Protvino Science City!  Please accept my sincere and warm congratulations on the great and sacred holiday for all of us -  69th Anniversary of Victory in the Great Patriotic War! ...
20:36 < fenn> ... Truly - it's a great date, which has great importance not only for our people, but also  for the world, saved from the Nazi plague. "
20:36 < kanzure> sacred?
20:37 < fenn> or special? but it seems correlated with religion
20:40 < fenn> yes google, this page with cyrillic characters from .ru is "haitian creole"
20:41 < kanzure> .ety Отечественной
20:41 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that.
20:41 < kanzure> useless
20:42 < fenn> who knew that may 8 was victory day
20:42 < kanzure> science victory dayt
20:44 < fenn> i wonder what dubna was named after
20:44 < fenn> oh, the dubna river
20:47 < fenn> There are several museums in Dubna, including: Museum of Locks
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20:54 < kanzure> i wonder if russian libraries were hijacked or not
20:54 < kanzure> maybe they have an aversion to "capitalist pig publishers"
20:55 < fenn> it's probably just nobody has bothered to translate everything
20:57 < kanzure> "Dear Bryan Bishop, Are you still manually soldering one wire at a time to your ultrasonic arrays? I heard about "Z-Axis tape" for the first time this week. Does this video make it sound like horrifically complex stuff that requires years of training to use "properly", or more like something you can slap on and use without thinking too hard?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3SPijvXtew#t=64 via ...
20:57 < kanzure> ... http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/91970/easiest-way-to-solder-connections-to-all-the-legs-on-a-surface-mount-chip/92594#92594
20:58 < fenn> yeah i saw the z-axis tape yesterday
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21:00 < kanzure> "This Z-Axis Conductive Tape is an easy-to-use, pressure sensitive double-sided tape designed for connecting, bonding and grounding flex circuits and PCBs. This conductive tape can connect most medium pitch flexible circuits through the Z-axis with other flexible circuits, PCB or LCD screens by simply applying pressure with your finger!"
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21:01 < kanzure> how is that supposed to help? you still have to cut the tape up and wire it elsewhere
21:02 < fenn> you can make a pcb and stick the thing to your tape and the pcb to the tape and then you're done
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21:02 < fenn> for things that can't be soldered
21:03 < fenn> old style lcd "screens" for example
21:03 < fenn> a lot of sparkfun products look really easy to reverse engineer and make yourself
21:04 < kanzure> how are you done? isn't the whole piece of tape conductive..
21:04 < kanzure> i am trying to understand this in the context of the "Dear Bryan" email
21:04 < fenn> omg multimeter abuse!
21:05 < fenn> especially on a website aimed at electronics nerds, sheesh
21:06 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastomeric_connector
21:06 < fenn> i wonder what role they play in a radar system
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21:12 < fenn> i wonder why electroluminescent LCD backlights aren't more common
21:13 < fenn> WANT http://lumineq.com/en/products/tfel
21:14 < fenn> that is like straight out of star trek http://lumineq.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_image/public/product/fields/field_images/7_7879.jpg
21:15 < kanzure> no pricing information
21:17 < fenn> it doesn't seem especially difficult to make either
21:17 < fenn> "thin film yellow-emitting manganese-doped zinc sulfide material"
21:17 < fenn> and probably an indium tin oxide front electrode
21:18 < fenn> dditionally, other transparent conducting materials, such as carbon nanotube coatings or PEDOT can be used as the front electrode.
21:18 < fenn> Poly(3,4-ethylenedioxythiophene) or PEDOT
21:19 < fenn> it should be flexible if deposited on a polymer film backing (and thus nearly indestructible in normal use)
21:21 < fenn>  Integral Contrast Enhancement  delivers up to 1000:1 contrast ratio for daylight readability.
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21:22 < fenn> it would be cool to figure out how to screen print segmented displays
21:22 < fenn> or some other rapid prototyping printing method
21:22 < fenn> like inkjet
21:23 < fenn> is inkjetted RGB flexible electroluminescent display too much to ask?
21:26 < kanzure> almost by definition
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21:28 < fenn> i don't get it, why did humanity ever develop CRT displays?
21:29 < kanzure> radar?
21:30 < fenn> i guess nobody was thinking about parallelism at the time
21:31 < jrayhawk> so i can have the raddest office in the world
21:31 < jrayhawk> raddest in more senses than one!
21:31 < fenn> rad-o-tronic
21:32 < fenn> for N pixels how many switches/relays/transistors are needed to turn them on individually?
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21:34 < fenn> a latching register isn't that hard to make
21:34 < fenn> it's pretty much required for anything involving computers anyway
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21:48 < fenn> roll to roll printing would probably make sense for mass producing displays
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22:12 < fenn> heh lumineq's pdf color scheme is exactly the same as my CSS override
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22:28 < fenn> .title https://www.youtube.com/embed/7r3l-sRMSfA
22:28 < yoleaux> Second version of Raspberry Pi with EL320.240.36
22:28 < fenn> could use a better dithering algorithm but not bad
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23:26 < fenn> the circuitry used to drive an electroluminescent display is somewhat similar to driving an array of PZT transducers
23:26 < fenn> lots of little high voltage AC wires
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--- Log closed Sat May 10 00:00:00 2014