--- Log opened Sun May 11 00:00:01 2014
00:13 < drewbug> Is paperbot dead? :(
00:14 < Viper168> sounds like something a murderer would ask to throw off suspicion
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06:30 < kanzure> death is just a state of mind
06:32 < chris_99> do you have a mind if you're dead
06:55 < kanzure> hehe the original transistors had a diameter of 2.54 mm
06:56 < kanzure> now what was the switching time?
06:56 < chris_99> heh interesting
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07:12 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0baba94a Bryan Bishop: homebrew bitcoin ASICs >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/homecmos/bitcoin/
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07:29 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=eb0ca9db Bryan Bishop: another homecmos wiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/
07:39 < kanzure> http://homecmos.drawersteak.com/mediawiki-1.20.3/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&days=3000&from=&limit=5000
07:47 < kanzure> "A new piny account ``fusheng liu'' has been created."
07:50 < kanzure> "My snails are getting big and fat, and now plenty of small ones hatched. I think my breeding stock is secure now."
07:51 < kanzure> "It would be nice to be able to prototype big inkjet structures on A4 format or larger."
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08:02 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=dae871b2 Fernando Borretti: Add section on the minimal toolset for DMS >> 
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08:06 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=78e5383c Fernando Borretti: Add section on patterned epitaxy >> 
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09:31 < kanzure> you guys are boring
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09:55 < fenn> oh now i see where you were going with the "history of circuits" stuff
09:57 < fenn> don't hate me for saying this but i think a DNA framework computer is the best way to do distributed computer manufacturing
09:58 < kanzure> no, history of circuits was just me being really confused
09:58 < kanzure> and now i have animaltronics and i think i'm even more confused =)
10:00 < fenn> bactronic
10:00 < fenn> .wik bacterial nanowire
10:00 < yoleaux> "Bacterial nanowires (also known as microbial nanowires) are electrically conductive appendages produced by a number of bacteria most notably from (but not exclusive to) the Geobacter and Shewanella genera." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_nanowires
10:01 < fenn> they solder themselves to a grain of iron and use it like a battery
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10:03 < kanzure> but i don't want to have to position nanowires for the rest of my life
10:04 < fenn> that's where the DNA self-assembly comes in
10:05 < kanzure> is this theoretical dna self-assembly or the kind that has produced a working semiconductor device
10:05 < fenn> i don't know, probably theoretical
10:05 < kanzure> yawn..
10:05 < kanzure> isn't it too early in the morning for you to be postulating dna computers?
10:05 < fenn> i read about this years ago
10:06 < kanzure> why isn't the micrometer-scale photolithography of MOS/CMOS stuff more popular
10:06 < fenn> so computer speed depends on two things, the capacitance of the transistor or a wire, and the distance a signal has to travel at the speed of light
10:07 < kanzure> i'm not sure if speed is always important
10:07 < fenn> with large feature size the capacitance goes up
10:07 < kanzure> especially if you can just make a shitload of them
10:07 < fenn> speed is not always important, for instance in camera sensors
10:07 < fenn> i guess people are conditioned to think that not-totally-shit cameras are supposed to be expensive
10:08 < fenn> but iphone camera replacements sell for $4 on ebay
10:09 < fenn> uh.. the physical size of the pixel matters for light collection
10:09 < kanzure> why are we suddenly talking about cameras
10:09 < fenn> because it's a reasonable application of DIY photolithography
10:09 < fenn> also LCOS displays
10:10 < kanzure> well, another reasonable application is small circuits
10:11 < fenn> aside from living in antarctica, why would i need to make small IC circuits when i can use a cheap general purpose microcontroller instead?
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10:12 < fenn> anyway i think a DIY microcontroller is totally doable
10:12 < fenn> a DIY FPGA would actually be useful
10:13 < fenn> reconfigurable computing
10:13 < fenn> bitcoin is boring
10:13 < fenn> "let's look up hashes for eternity"
10:14 < fenn> it's too bad ASIC got to the top of the heap so quickly, we could have seen a proliferation of DIY FPGA rigs and general know-how
10:15 < fenn> well at least clusters of FPGA units
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10:16 < fenn> i'm more worried about what we can do, not how we're going to transfer the money to someone
10:16 < FourFire> A computing device consisting of a cluster of interredundant FPGA circuits is a pleasing concept to me
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10:20 < chris_99> that's how they prototype at Intel et. al
10:30 < kanzure> because cheap general microcontrollers don't do sha256 fast enough
10:30 < kanzure> fpgas were usable for a while but now they are too slow
10:47 < kanzure> fenn: bitcoin is boring because it uses hashes? that's a silly statement
10:47 < kanzure> fenn: git uses hashes, does that make git boring
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11:15 < fenn> so can i buy people's old fpga bitcoin rigs?
11:16 < chris_99> sure
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11:24 < dingo> ebay search it, you'll see it
11:24 < dingo> the whole point being at some point the watts consumed doesn't pay off, lol
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11:27 < Escapist> What do you think about bineural waves/beats?
11:29 < fenn> just do LSD
11:31 < andytoshi> Escapist: ime they do nothing at all
11:31 < Escapist> I do not think about getting high, but booost thinking spped
11:31 < andytoshi> i'd say better to practice meditation and focus
11:32 < fenn> i'd say better to eat fish oil and eggs
11:32 < andytoshi> that too
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11:33 < fenn> so why isn't the russian government building nuclear reactors in the arctic to run bitcoin miners?
11:35 < bkero> Are you sure they're not?
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11:37 < chris_99> this is why the ice is melting fenn
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11:39 < Escapist> i must not eat eggs, campus where al our food comes from mensa so i can not go bulletproof
11:40 < Escapist> andytoshi is there a special kinf of medition ou prefferand why?
11:41 < fenn> wait, what's this about mensa?
11:42 < Escapist> .d\ mensa
11:43 < andytoshi> Escapist: idk anything about the various forms of meditation people talk about, i just try to think nothing (or more positively, think about something very simple, like a humming sound or my breathing)
11:43 < Escapist> comes from the latin word for table is a place where pupils come together and eat stuff from the school
11:44 < Escapist> what are benefits?
11:44 < kanzure> ugh, quick vote to kick Escapist? y/n
11:44 < fenn> n
11:44 < andytoshi> i think he's fine
11:45 < Escapist> i think my vioce do not count but n
11:45 < kanzure> enjoy your low signal
11:45 < kanzure> "everyone should join a forum and listen to bineural beats"
11:45 < Escapist> thanks, yesterday, i asked some stupid question to kanzure , sorry for that
11:45 < kanzure> uh?
11:45 < kanzure> what was your stupid question
11:47 < andytoshi> Escapist: i agree this convo is skirting the bounds of 'what is signal', so i'll just answer your q and leave it be. the benefit is that it makes you calmer and lets your brain devote its (very finite) computational resources to whatever you're thinking about deeply, rather than whatever is distracting your conscious mind
11:48 < andytoshi> but seriously, just try it and if it helps you stick with it, if you try to discuss it (esp. online) you will get a bunch of kum bah ahs and nothing useful
11:48 < fenn> meditation has been shown to lower cortisol, which reduces inflammation and keeps the whole brain active instead of fight/flight response
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11:49 < kanzure> fenn: can you clarify your dislike of bitcoin
11:50 < fenn> it's a waste of electricity
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11:50 < kanzure> because money is bad?
11:50 < fenn> because the electricity isn't used for anything useful
11:50 < kanzure> because money is useless?
11:50 < escapist_> Was this a kick or a diconect, if it was a kick bye everyone
11:50 < fenn> it has nothing to do with money
11:50 < fenn> escapist_: you just timed out
11:50 < kanzure> escapist_: your client is shit
11:50 < fenn> bad internet connection i guess
11:51 < kanzure> fenn: if it has nothing to do with money, what do you think it is then?
11:51 < escapist_> ok, i agree i have bad connection 16.000 with 300 + poeple
11:54 < fenn> i'm not building a jupiter brain just so we can all sit around and compute hashes
11:54 < kanzure> nobody.. said.. you were?
11:55 < fenn> http://demo1.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/Incentivization this is alright explanation, even though it focuses a bit too much on free software
11:55 < kanzure> that's just the person that was furious that everybody didn't pledge their first born to gnu
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11:56 < fenn> ok well, s/Free Software/software/
11:56 < kanzure> are you also angry that my cells are purpose-specific?
11:56 < andytoshi> fenn: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf counters that. and besides, the point of the hashing is to translate computational resources into security
11:56 < fenn> but they're not, that's what's cool about biology
11:56 < dingo> the point of the hashing is to ensure "making" money has a cost
11:56 < dingo> which is kindof the problem with USD.. there is no cost in "making" it, thats part of the chaos
11:57 < kanzure> he's just angry that it's not all free open source hardware
11:57 < fenn> i read the essay by nick szabo on primitive money making tribes (they made wampum from oysters, or beads, or collected shells, or whatever)
11:57 < fenn> what they were doing was useless in a productive sense
11:57 < fenn> but it made money that other tribes could use
11:58 < fenn> bitcoin is like this, but with nuclear reactors
11:58 < kanzure> how do you make a record that is difficult to tamper with?
11:58 < dingo> i think you underestimate the cost of running a nuclear reactor
11:58 < andytoshi> "it was not productive, except for the thing it was intended for, which it did"
11:59 < fenn> it's some fraction of the overall economy, which is just nuts for a control system
11:59 < fenn> it's like you need a bigger driver to drive a bigger semi truck
11:59 < kanzure> specifically what fraction
12:00 < fenn> szabo estimated it at 3%? i forget
12:00 < kanzure> are you also against kernel overhead
12:01 < fenn> i guess i am just against money. there, fire away
12:02 < kanzure> at least you're honest
12:02 < fenn> bitcoin is still better than fucking bank of america
12:02 < dingo> you can send me your money if it helps
12:03 < kanzure> mplayer http://pub5.di.fm/di_progressive_aac?type=.flv
12:03 < kanzure> oops
12:06 < kanzure> fenn: so, i was thinking that i might be able to get interest from the bitcoin asic miners in doing simpler semiconductor manufacturing
12:06 < kanzure> without the billion dollar fabs
12:06 < kanzure> and a side effect may be people investigating simpler methods of semiconductor photolithography stuff
12:06 < fenn> i was trying to explain how bitcoin works today and realized i still don't really know all the details
12:07 < kanzure> the source code isn't too terrible https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
12:08 < kanzure> and if a bunch of money is dumped into making photolithography semiconductor stuff cheaper, then it is cheaper for other non-bitcoin projects too
12:08 < fenn> yes that would be a good side effect
12:08 < fenn> i'm not holding my breath tho
12:08 < kanzure> unfortunately it had the opposite effect in the gpu market
12:08 < kanzure> all the good gpus got eaten up and prices spiked
12:09 < fenn> nah that's different, just supply demand and unpredictability of markets. technology development is different
12:10 < kanzure> i've been trying to estimate how many chips you would have to build to make up for the fact that you're not doing 90nm transistors
12:10 < kanzure> apparently the current bitcoin asics are 28nm
12:11 < fenn> well for one thing your energy cost in J/GH is going up
12:11 < kanzure> if it turns out that no amount of production will let you "catch up", or that the amount of production would cost unfathomably large amounts of money (hundreds of billions?), then there's maybe no point
12:11 < fenn> bigger transistor means more switching charge (bigger capacitance = more charge)
12:11 < fenn> more charge = more current = more power
12:12 < kanzure> i also wonder if there's diminishing returns of large-area transistors vs just buying random microprocessors/microcontrollers off the shelf (if they would provide better computing than whatever you could make)
12:12 < kanzure> what's the hash rate of a sha256-specific chip anyway. hrm.
12:13 < kanzure> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison
12:13 < fenn> 2GH/s according to ebay
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12:14 < kanzure> according to this table, it's more like 10-100 GH/s
12:14 < kanzure> "Black Arrow Prospero X-3" is 1 TH/s hrm
12:15 < kanzure> is looking at the fpga implementations on github an okay approximation
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12:15 < kanzure> they are probably straight fpga -> silicon dumps, right?
12:15 < fenn> how the hell should i know
12:16 < kanzure> should you?
12:17 < fenn> so they have broken 2TH/s already
12:17 < fenn> i wonder how many chips that is
12:17 < fenn> looks like 4 chips so more like 500GH/s
12:18 < kanzure> that's disappointing
12:18 < fenn> it's completely arbitrary
12:18 < fenn> more hashes is more hashes, so, fuck off
12:19 < ParahSailin> well it LTV is correct, then hashing is a lot of labor, hence lots of value
12:20 < fenn> it's a zero sum game
12:20 < fenn> except for the value of the network of course
12:20 < fenn> network value is independent of number of hashes being performed
12:21 < kanzure> do you know what the hashes are for?
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12:27 < fenn> "Any block that is created by a malicious user that does not follow this rule (or any other rules) will be rejected by everyone else."
12:29 < fenn> "Each block memorializes what took place immediately before it was created."
12:29 < fenn> New blocks can't be submitted to the network without the correct answer - the process of "Mining" is essentially the process of competing to be the next to find the answer that "solves" the current block.
12:30 < fenn> each hash is a "guess" at the answer
12:30 < andytoshi> fenn: you are totally missing the forest for the trees
12:31 < andytoshi> like if you said aerobic respiration was a process for binding carbon to oxygen
12:31 < fenn> he said "do you know what the hashes are for" and i answered, what do you want
12:31 < andytoshi> and when asked what it's for, you started talking about valence electrons and how respiration gets you the right reconfiguration
12:32 < andytoshi> fenn: the hashes give a way to translate computational resources into something cryptographically verifiable
12:32 < andytoshi> that's what "proof of work" refers to
12:32 < fenn> it has nothing to do with computational resources
12:32 < andytoshi> it lets you /define/ the system mathematically so that it is hard to rewrite history
12:33 < andytoshi> fenn: the correct answer to kanzure's question was "no"
12:33 < fenn> it's just the ability to do this particular cryptographic algorithm, which happens to be implemented on something resembling a computer
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12:35 < fenn> you can take all the bitcoin asics in the world and the won't be able to add 2+2
12:35 < chris_99> heh
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12:36 < andytoshi> yeah, and you can take all the aerobic biomass in the world and they won't be able to either
12:36 < andytoshi> and yet here we are huffing and puffing as we type frantically
12:36 < fenn> the difference is you say one is "computational resources" and the other isn't?
12:38 < andytoshi> ?? the difference is that respiration is used to provide useful energy to the organism while bitcoin hashing is used to translate a fact of physics to a fact of mathematics
12:38 < andytoshi> they are more alike than they are different at the level we are talking
12:38 < andytoshi> in both cases they are a mechanism for taking resources from the environment and translating them into a form that the system can use
12:38 < fenn> but cells are more general purpose than bitcoin asics
12:39 < fenn> even "specialized" cells can do a large number of things
12:39 < andytoshi> i'd like a citation that DNA is more expressive than bitcoin script..
12:39 < fenn> what is bitcoin script?
12:39 < andytoshi> lol
12:39 < andytoshi> alright, i've gotta get going
12:42 < fenn> was bitcoin script in the original spec?
12:43 < andytoshi> yes. section 3 of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf talks about what it's for, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script is a more nuts-and-bolts explanation
12:43 < andytoshi> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts gives some simple examples of why it's more expressive than you'd expect at first glance
12:44 < andytoshi> but i've got a jam to go to, ttyl
12:44 < fenn> bye
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13:07 < FourFire> wait does someone want to try to create a biological bitcoin ASIC?
13:07 < FourFire> that seems silly... and suboptimal...
13:07 < FourFire> like using nuclear decay to cook popcorn
13:07 < FourFire> (that isn't even a bad enough example)
13:17 < fenn> aside from being used to compute near-meaningless hashes, what's wrong with a biological ASIC?
13:17 < kanzure> are you angry that entropy exists
13:17 < fenn> or biological IC in general
13:17 < fenn> kanzure: yes actually
13:18 < kanzure> are you angry energy exists?
13:18 < fenn> um, no
13:19 < fenn> what does it mean when the sound turns off in one of your ears (i don't have a hearing aid or anything)
13:20 < kanzure> it means "you should stand up"
13:20 < fenn> is it some kind of transient ischemia? is that what you mean?
13:22 < kanzure> do you also dislike hashcash?
13:22 < fenn> i forget what that is
13:22 < fenn> some email spam prevention thing
13:23 < kanzure> .wik hashcash
13:23 < yoleaux> "Hashcash is a proof-of-work system designed to limit email spam and denial-of-service attacks. Hashcash was proposed in May 1997 by Adam Back." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash
13:23 < fenn> at a first pass it looks like there's no incentive to make huge numbers of hashcash computing nodes?
13:24 < fenn> because spam isn't that valuable
13:24 < fenn> there are presumably more people who dislike getting spam than people who like sending spam
13:25 < fenn> there's no spam race between spammers because of the overwhelming majority of spam-avoiders
13:25 < fenn> but "everybody likes money" or at least a large enough majority that the rest of us get dragged along
13:26 < fenn> i don't have anything against hashcash in principle, but it would be terrible if a majority of the internet were devoted to preventing spam
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13:33 < fenn> i used the wrong asymmetry. spammers want to send more emails than regular users, is the important part
13:38 < fenn> i dont think hashcash would stop the chinese factory salesmen from emailing me
13:42 < fenn> huh. spamassassin already uses hashcash
13:43 < fenn> .ety assassin
13:43 < yoleaux> assassin (n.): "1530s (in Anglo-Latin from mid-13c.), via French and Italian, from Arabic hashishiyyin "hashish-users," plural of hashishiyy, from hashish (q.v.)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=assassin
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14:18 < kanzure> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Generation_Calculator
14:19 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:United_Kingdom_nuke_plant_map
14:23 < kanzure> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawsfynydd_nuclear_power_station
14:23 < kanzure> well that's a mouthful
14:24 < fenn> why are you looking at UK nuclear plants?
14:24 < kanzure> swhack reasons
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14:25 < jrayhawk> still less gibberishy than cornish
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14:26 < kanzure> cornwho?
14:27 < fenn> TP for my Bunghole
14:27 < jrayhawk> hah
14:27 < jrayhawk> actually i guess that probably is an artifact of cornish heritage
14:27 < jrayhawk> beh
14:29 < jrayhawk> http://www.cornish-language.org/?lang=ker
14:31 < fenn> so a 4TH/s miner costs about $10k and on average will generate a block every 3 months (?) which is about $10k at the going rate?
14:31 < fenn> plus cost of electricity
14:32 < fenn> oh look at all these profitability calculators
14:33 < fenn> wow the profit goes negative in about a year
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14:44 < fenn> can you buy grid electricity with bitcoin yet?
14:49 < fenn> com/r/Bitcoin/comments/24uhk9/now_you_can_pay_electricity_using_bitcoin_in/  sorry for reddit, couldn't find this anywhere else
14:49 < fenn> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/24uhk9/now_you_can_pay_electricity_using_bitcoin_in/
14:51 < kanzure> profitability is usually pretty low, or negative
14:51 < kanzure> so, people join pools because of that multiple months thing
14:51 < kanzure> plus, the total network hashrate is increasing anyway, so those 3 months end up being "forever"
14:52 < fenn> so you are likely to not get any money back if you don't join a pool?
14:53 < kanzure> at 4 TH/s, correct, yeah
14:53 < fenn> why would anyone mine if profit is negative on state of the art hardware?
14:53 < kanzure> i believe mining has always been unprofitable in the short-term
14:54 < fenn> is 3 months short term?
14:54 < kanzure> if you want to buy a lot of bitcoins, you can't just buy them because nobody sells that much on the market
14:54 < fenn> huh why not
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14:54 < kanzure> however, buying has always had a greater return than mining
14:54 < kanzure> oh, just depth of market reasons, not everyone is selling on the exchanges etc
14:55 < fenn> doesnt that just drive the price up?
14:55 < kanzure> and certainly not all of the density is at the exact price point yu're willing to pay
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14:55 < kanzure> sure it drives the price up
14:56 < kanzure> i saw an article yesterday that calculated that the profit margin of mining operations is like -319%
14:56 < fenn> i dont believe that
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14:57 < kanzure> .title https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=370858.0
14:57 < yoleaux> Profit Margin for Miners is negative 627%????
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14:58 < fenn> how the fuck would blockchain.info know your electricity cost
14:58 < kanzure> fair point; in general, don't trust any of the graphs on blockchain.info
14:59 < ThomasEgi> the value you gain from mining bitcoins is roughly the same as the value of your electricity bill, given somewhat average electricity prices
15:00 < fenn> given that electricity prices can vary by almost an order of magnitude, that's a lot of room for arbitrage
15:00 < ThomasEgi> at least.. it was like that last time i made the comparison between bitcoin value and traditionally produced electricity
15:00 < kanzure> also, some countries do an estimate on how much power you're going to use and charge you for that, rather than metering you and billing you every month
15:00 < kanzure> i think i have the scheme wrong
15:00 < ThomasEgi> that caculation was done for me, as an individual person living in germany
15:01 < fenn> often they'll estimate, charge you, and then refund/bill the difference the next month
15:01 < ThomasEgi> my guess is that the results for other countries with somewhat sane billing plans would end up close to it.
15:01 < fenn> you can sign up for a average monthly bill per year program
15:02 < fenn> i think it's a great way to hide the cost of air conditioning from people
15:02 < ThomasEgi> the interesting point that came up is that the value equaled the energy value used to mine it.
15:03 < ThomasEgi> so the only real way to "earn" money was to use renewable energy. like wind/solar to power your rig.
15:03 < ThomasEgi> and the only difference between mining bitcoins and selling the energy directly is that finding people who want your bitcoins is easier than people who want your home-made electricity
15:04 < kanzure> uhuh.. the only difference you say.
15:04 < ThomasEgi> again. from my perspective
15:04 < kanzure> there's not any other possible difference
15:04 < kanzure> whatsoever
15:06 < ThomasEgi> that's just my conclusion i had when i investigated my benefits of mining bitcoins. that's not a scientific statement
15:06 < fenn> "Electricity consumption is estimated based on power consumption of 650 Watts per gigahash" ok that's not even the correct units, and now a state of the art rig is 0.165 J/GH (?) for minerscube something something
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15:08 < fenn> heh "15BTC gets you 15TH/s!"
15:10 < fenn> just consider a bitcoin miner as a very inefficient power transformer that wears out quickly
15:10 < kanzure> the output is power?
15:11 < fenn> yeah something like 1e-50 J in a specific format
15:11 < fenn> ok nevermind
15:11 < kanzure> why is that specifically 1e-50? doesn't it change
15:11 < kanzure> ok
15:11 < fenn> it takes energy to encode bits
15:13  * fenn mumbles something about solar power satellites
15:18 < fenn> given all the focus on electricity cost i'm surprised there isn't research on highly efficient power transformers and something better than a USB hub or wall wart for power distribution
15:20 < fenn> "Of course, the way BTC works is that the more people drop out, the easier it gets to mine again. So if everyone jumped ship, it could become profitable overnight.
15:20 < kanzure> most of the people who focus on electricity cost don't seem to be interested in contributing changes
15:20 < fenn> this zero sum game stuff is terrible
15:24 < kanzure> it's zero sum because my bitcoins are worthless?
15:24 < fenn> no, it's zero sum because if i publish a circuit that improves the electricity efficiency of all bitcoin miners, the total energy wasted is the same
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15:25 < fenn> i'm probably using the wrong game theory words
15:26 < fenn> i wish i could find that paper by szabo that estimates where it all tops out
15:26 < kanzure> it's the same because they don't implement your circuit?
15:27 < fenn> the wastage is the same because mining bitcoins "becomes profitable again" and people jump on the network and burn more asic cycles
15:28 < fenn> this increases the energy cost per bitcoin back to where it was before
15:28 < kanzure> so where is the zero?
15:28 < fenn> if someone invents fusion power, the electricity cost is the same, it's just running on fusion now
15:28 < fenn> the zero is because nobody benefits, there's zero net gain
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15:29 < fenn> er, i said that wrong
15:29 < fenn> .wik zero sum game
15:29  * fenn pokes yoleaux
15:29 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) took too long to process.
15:30 < fenn> "In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which a participant's gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant."
15:31 < fenn> so whoever has the most efficient power supply and processor (mostly) wins, and everyone else (mostly) loses
15:34 < kanzure> and people who aren't mining also lose?
15:34 < fenn> no, because they haven't invested anything
15:35 < fenn> the queue advancement tip payment adds a little to the whole system
15:35 < fenn> i don't know how that works in practice
15:35 < kanzure> you should also look at proof of stake
15:35 < fenn> there's only so much crypto-* i can take in a day
15:37 < fenn> why should i look at proof of stake
15:37 < kanzure> you might hate it less
15:38 < kanzure> and it's the algorithm that backs that gnuhater link
15:39 < fenn> lol "but who should the coins be distributed to? f it is to random IPs, then Bitcoin would have triggered a massive growth in botnets and the impact of people chasing after IP addresses might well have pushed the world onto IPv6 half a year ago."
15:40 < kanzure> i don't think ip would be a good idea
15:40 < fenn> the majority of IPs are owned by the US government anyway
15:41 < kanzure> would that be bad
15:41 < kanzure> can't decide
15:41 < fenn> um, it would reduce their incentive to destroy IPcoin
15:41 < fenn> i think
15:43 < fenn> it's a bad idea because IP is easily spoofed and it would require every computer to be running some special software regardless what it was for
15:43 < fenn> IPv4 is already scarce enough
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15:47 < fenn> data point: minercube is about 3000 times more energy efficient at hashing than a GPU
15:51 < fenn> eventually the block reward will peter out and the network will be run entirely by transaction fees, which depend on impatient people to work. so the amount of electricity wasted depends directly on the total impatience of bitcoin spenders
15:52 < fenn> i don't actually care about electricity but it's a problem when we're burning oil to make it
15:54 < fenn> gosh this has so many feedback loops i really dont know where it ends up
16:09 < fenn> now that scrypt asics exist, why are gpus not selling for dirt cheap?
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16:17 < ParahSailin> i wonder how many btc mining outfits are in iceland
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16:36 < kanzure> fenn: i don't think scrypt asics are widely available?
16:36 < kanzure> ParahSailin: at leas tone
16:37 < fenn> i am seeing some "gridseed" stuff on ebay
16:38 < fenn> says 360KHash/s on scrypt
16:38 < kanzure> don't gpus do better than that?
16:38 < fenn> i dont know
16:39 < kanzure> scrpyt miner comparison chart thing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlhSF602y9DSdHRneWVZcjJLWmhjaVBMTHVCR3l4eHc&usp=sharing#gid=0
16:39 < fenn> ugh
16:40 < fenn> the other thing is energy efficiency
16:41 < fenn> gridseed is 7W in scrypt-only mode
16:41 < kanzure> some of these do >400 KH/s
16:41 < fenn> yeah i just read something claiming 10MH/s on a FPGA
16:42 < fenn> do i have to sign in to google docs just to sort by x?
16:42 < kanzure> no idea. i'm surprised you went there.
16:46 < fenn> i guess GPU still competes on price per hash per second
16:47 < fenn> so maybe if electricity is really cheap it makes sense to get a gpu?
16:47 < kanzure> intel 4004 had 10 micron features and a clock of 740 kHz hehe
16:48 < fenn> 8051 equivalent is still in common use
16:48 < kanzure> 10 microns is pretty large
16:48 < fenn> that's visible to the unaided eye
16:49 < kanzure> /query azonenberg images of uncapped 4004 pls? kthx
16:49 < kanzure> http://www.lighterra.com/articles/historyofcomputers/intel4004chip.jpg
16:49 < kanzure> he delivers!
16:51 < fenn> http://www.cpu-zone.com/4004.htm
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16:51 < fenn> various other processors on that site
16:52 < fenn> i love how the datasheet pinout looks exactly the same as modern datasheets
16:52 < kanzure> that feature size does not seem unreasonable for homebrew non-billion-dollar fabs
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16:56 < fenn> you could do a straight copy of the 8051, there's masks on ... where did visual8051.org go
16:57 < kanzure> http://www.amazon.com/Logical-Effort-Designing-Circuits-Architecture/dp/1558605576/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399852479&sr=8-1&keywords=logical+effort
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18:13 < kanzure> "As a Tor exit node operator (AlexanderShulgin), I'll add a bitcoin full node to my server as well ;) [On an unrelated note, I'm also the employer of the raided4tor guy]"
18:14 < kanzure> so.. is this shulgin or not? i think not, but then what's with the random raided4tor connection
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19:11 < kanzure> toot
19:19 < cluckj> my fractal tv antenna is not cutting it now that it's not in the attic :<
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19:43 < fenn> cluckj: try a strange loop antenna
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19:52 < kanzure> hrmm https://github.com/OpenAssets/open-assets-protocol/blob/master/specification.mediawiki
19:53 < kanzure> the problem with bitcoin is that it's a never-ending stream of shitty proposals intermixed with possibly-okay proposals, but then mixed with emotional reactions to money that means nobody provides an analysis for you
19:54 < fenn> is this different from counterparty
19:55 < kanzure> hm "It is possible to determine the asset address and quantity of an output by traversing only a limited number of transactions."
19:55 < kanzure> yes (esp. because that quote)
19:55 < kanzure> "Generating a new type of asset is as simple as generating an address, can be done offline, and for free." that's a curious property
19:56 < fenn> the "asset" is just a reference to a physical object or deed or whatever
19:57 < fenn> there may be some confusing of the finger with the moon
19:58 < kanzure> because my finger is inflammed?
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19:59 < fenn> it's not worth explaining the metaphor. "the map is not the territory"
20:00 < kanzure> i agree, same with mastercoin/counterparty though
20:00 < kanzure> for electronic-assets, it seems to work okay
20:00 < kanzure> but otherwise it sounds as bad an idea as "GLD"
20:01 < kanzure> (buying a stock called GLD and hoping their vault really has it)
20:01 < kanzure> "GLD has grown to become the second-largest exchange-traded fund by assets, valued at $72.4 billion and backed by 40.8 million ounces of physical gold.  The subject of much fascination, GLD has also been targeted by skeptics who question the ETF’s secretive methods and even doubt it holds all the gold in HSBC’s vault in London."
20:01 < fenn> hoping it stays pegged to gold prices even if the shit hits the fan
20:01 < fenn> did you know it's illegal to own "gold"
20:01 < fenn> you can own things made of gold but not the raw material
20:01 < kanzure> i saw something about a law in the 70s or something
20:01 < kanzure> not completely sure
20:02 < fenn> "up for auction is a golden wikipedia"
20:02 < fenn> start the bidding at one dogecoin
20:03 < kanzure> i bed -10 dogecoin
20:03 < kanzure> bid, damn it
20:03 < fenn> such a weird idea that currencies can "compete"
20:03 < fenn> who came up with that
20:03 < kanzure> currencies is one of those red herring words
20:03 < kanzure> "it's not a currency because it's not in my wallet"
20:03 < kanzure> "it's a currency because regardless of your trust in it, the transactions are still working"
20:04 < fenn> "what is 'is' anyway" to quote bill clinton
20:05 < kanzure> great, now i owe him trademark fees
20:05 < fenn> you can cite alfred korzybski for prior art
20:05 < fenn> Korzybski thought that people do not have access to direct knowledge of reality; rather they have access to perceptions and to a set of beliefs which human society has confused with direct knowledge of reality. Korzybski is remembered as the author of the dictum: "The map is not the territory".
20:09 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski#.22To_be.22
20:15 < kanzure> "Regular shareholders have no rights of redemption and the gold is not required to be insured by the Trust, which is not liable for loss, damage, theft, nor fraud."
20:15 < kanzure> well what's the point
20:15 < fenn> to "diversify" your "portfolio" "duh"
20:15 < kanzure> i see....
20:16 < fenn> charles swab recommends investing heavily in q-tips
20:16 < fenn> "people will always need q-tips" he said
20:16 < kanzure> i can't use them anymore for legal reasons
20:16 < fenn> conflict of interest?
20:16 < kanzure> settlement
20:16 < kanzure> settlement terms
20:17 < fenn> they are too pleasurable to be allowed in a moral, honest, god-fearing America?
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20:17 < kanzure> nah they gone done fucked up on their own
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20:19 < fenn> "the threat to our children is too great!" moms-against-q-tips spokesmom declared
20:20 < fenn> she cited several incidents of traumatic brain injury caused by improper q-tip use
20:21 < fenn> and think about the environmental damage caused
20:22 < fenn> q-tips have been banned in saudi arabia when it was discovered that they can be used to stimulate cats in heat
20:23 < kanzure> that's only in your head
20:23 < fenn> yes, the brain damage, now we're communicating
20:24 < kanzure> i'm very confused, was i supposed to be working on something right now?
20:25 < fenn> you were finishing python-brlcad
20:26 < kanzure> does anyone use that
20:26 < fenn> does it do anything?
20:26 < kanzure> it makes shapes and csg and stuff
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20:27 < fenn> is this just an alternative to the tcl shell in brlcad?
20:28 < kanzure> they are ctypes bindings into each of the core brlcad libraries
20:28 < kanzure> all 470 of them
20:28 < kanzure> or.. something.
20:28 < fenn> so, if i union a RPP and a ARB and intersect a BOT, what do i do with the output?
20:29 < kanzure> save it to a file, view it with one of the brlcad viewer tools
20:29 < cluckj> fenn, that's a little large for the frequencies I want
20:29 < kanzure> python loop for showing the object in real-time does not exist yet
20:29 < fenn> cluckj: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop
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20:30 < cluckj> okay
20:30 < fenn> "not a cake, an onion" ?
20:31 < fenn> i guess cakes have layers
20:33 < fenn> kanzure: you should make screenshots of rendering the example files at least
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20:34 < kanzure> it doesn't render
20:34 < kanzure> oh, those are the normal eamples
20:34 < kanzure> *examples
20:34 < fenn> but it makes geometry that can be rendered
20:34 < kanzure> i've loaded them in mged, but i haven't been able to figure out a reliable way to render to png with brlcad
20:35 < kanzure> i just get lots of static (even when not using python-brlcad)
20:35 < fenn> a 3d hilbert curve is the normal brlcad example?
20:35 < kanzure> the normal example is a sphere inside of a cube
20:35 < fenn> can you just screenshot the window
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20:37 < kanzure> ugh someone needs to setup travis-ci with python-brlcad
20:37 < kanzure> i don't have numpy installed? wtf
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20:38 < fenn> it would be nice to have a format/api that could be used with both pyscad and brlcad
20:39 < fenn> or scadpy or whatever the fuck
20:39 < kanzure> what is pyscad?
20:39 < kanzure> scatpy?
20:39 < fenn> openscad but python
20:39 < fenn> one was a binding, the other was a partial reimplementation
20:40 < kanzure> did i do that? that sounds like something i would do (the partial reimplementation)
20:40 < fenn> i don't think you made it
20:40 < kanzure> excellent
20:40 < kanzure> numpy takes quite a while to compile
20:41 < fenn> why are you compiling numpy?
20:41 < kanzure> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC'
20:41 < kanzure> because it's a dependency of wdb_example.py apparently
20:41 < fenn> and the .deb versions are too new?
20:42 < kanzure> i was grabbing numpy from pypi.python.org
20:42 < kanzure> i don't see anything newer than brlcad_7.24.0-0_amd64.deb
20:42 < kanzure> where is RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC supposed to be coming from?
20:42 < fenn> i mean python-numpy.deb
20:43 < kanzure> include/magic.h:#define RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC		0x6872743f /**< hrt? */
20:43 < kanzure> "magic.h" i can already tell this is not going to be a fun night
20:44 < fenn> hrt stands for "butt hurt"
20:45 < kanzure> if compare_version("7.24.1") >= 0: MAGIC_TO_PRIMITIVE_TYPE[librt.ID_HRT] = ("HRT", Primitive, librt.RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC, librt.struct_rt_hrt_internal)
20:45 < kanzure> i forgot that this guy can't write python
20:46 < kanzure> brlcad.util.BRLCAD_VERSION says "7.24"
20:46 < fenn> hrt stands for "heart" a geometric primitive? (why would you need that?)
20:47 < kanzure> librt does the geometric primitives
20:47 < fenn> is this some hippie "put flowers in the tank cannon barrel" thing?
20:47 < kanzure> apparently heart is a geometric primitive (Fjdkf;ldakdfjqoiijeq)
20:47 < kanzure> "brlcad the good parts"
20:48 < fenn> .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5pP3Vo5A6E
20:48 < kanzure> bot's not here
20:49 < fenn> "BRL-CAD LOVES YOU"
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20:49 < kanzure> that heart is mocking me
20:49 < kanzure> it's not even a valid heart anyway
20:50 < kanzure> that ain't gonna pump anything
20:50 < fenn> of all the things they could have done: http://brlcad.org/~sean/ideas.html
20:51 < kanzure> military priority document
20:51 < kanzure> ha "Implement a fast routine to evaluate BREP/NURBS used with CSG operations in real-time (consider integrating BOOLE or ESOLID)"
20:51 < kanzure> ha because see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/boole
20:52 < fenn> right
20:52 < kanzure> and because http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad/tree/esolid
20:52 < kanzure> why am i doing the military's dirty work?
20:53 < fenn> did you actually write all that code?
20:54 < kanzure> yes :\
20:54 < kanzure> but then i realized i wasn't testing it, and i couldn't think of a sane way to test it, so i stopped
20:54 < fenn> you could do pixel comparison of a standard scene
20:55 < kanzure> it wasn't to the point where it was working
20:55 < kanzure> i'd say it's 10% done
20:55 < kanzure> and i wanted to start testing things before i got to the parts that used the existing parts
20:55 < fenn> huh. why is geometry so hard
20:55 < kanzure> frankly i'm surprised the actual esolid source code didn't have tests.. how did that kid do it?
20:56 < kanzure> this much geometry code without tests is serious lsd territory
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20:56 < fenn> .botsnack
20:56 < yoleaux> :D
20:57 < kanzure> also, i would probably start with ctypes-based bindings of esolid if i was to do something close to that again
20:57 < fenn> you have to train them to come back when called
20:57 < kanzure> i don't completely trust brlcad's implementation of nurbs intersection yet
20:58 < fenn> geometry engine seems like a job for haskell
20:59 < kanzure> i asked a haskell person to quote me an estimate and he said $20k.. i should just go pay him.
21:00 < fenn> to do what
21:00 < kanzure> haskell implementation of nurbs intersection
21:05 < fenn> this is just hilarious http://open3dp.me.washington.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Ism11.jpg
21:05 < kanzure> why is everything esoteric?
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21:11 < kanzure> $ python wdb_example.py output.g
21:11 < kanzure> *** Error in `python': free(): invalid pointer: 0x0000000002951780 ***
21:12 < kanzure> ugh i think this means i need to review his code more closely in the future
21:13 < fenn> can you tell which shape it's failing on?
21:14 < kanzure> huh, print "debug9" at the end still goes through
21:15 < nmz787> is there anyway to piggyback something like this on IRC http://peerjs.com/
21:15 < nmz787> for paper purposes?
21:16 < nmz787> huh https://peercdn.com/
21:16 < kanzure> why not just use websockets
21:16 < fenn> perhaps you are thinking of CTCP
21:16 < kanzure> webrtc seems to be inappropriate
21:17 < fenn> er, DCC SEND
21:17 < kanzure> email
21:18 < kanzure> fenn: http://heybryan.org/shots/2014-05-11-231517-python-brlcad-wdb-example.png
21:18 < fenn> cool, shapes!
21:19 < fenn> now you just need hidden line rendering, opengl, some cool selection effect like blender's...
21:19 < kanzure> i don't want to use mged
21:19 < kanzure> fuck mged
21:20 < fenn> is the cylinder angled wrt the face of the cube?
21:20 < fenn> or is it a non-right cylinder?
21:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/blob/master/examples/wdb_example.py
21:21 < fenn> there don't seem to be enough shapes
21:21 < kanzure> sphere, rpp, hole
21:22 < fenn> i see sphere, rpp, arb4
21:22 < kanzure> what's an arb4
21:22 < kanzure> god damn military codes
21:22 < fenn> a cube
21:22 < kanzure> i need my secret decoder ring
21:22 < kanzure> rpp is a cube apparently
21:22 < fenn> but arbitrary!
21:22 < kanzure> "Note that this really makes an arb8" IT HAS BEEN NOTED
21:23 < fenn> oh. hm. what's a cylinder called
21:23 < fenn> rcc?
21:23 < fenn> rpc?
21:23 < fenn> this is brl-cad's major failing
21:24 < kanzure> well, write a simplifying layer
21:24 < kanzure> it's not like i understand it either
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21:25 < fenn> rcc - truncated general cone (right circular cylinder)
21:26 < fenn> is this one of those infinite geometry things
21:26 < kanzure> thanks, now i've forgotten my birthdate
21:29 < fenn> they could have gotten away with {cuboid, ellipsoid, cone, bitmap, pipe, mesh} and some sensible defaults
21:30 < fenn> oh and torus i guess
21:30 < fenn> i'm not really sure how you're supposed to make a helix
21:31 < fenn> maybe helix is a kind of pipe
21:32 < fenn> what the hell http://brlcad.org/wiki/Spiral
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21:33 < fenn> mine's better  http://fennetic.net/irc/lengthspiral.py http://fennetic.net/irc/lengthspiral.png
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21:34 < fenn> oh look it's the heart primitive http://fennetic.net/irc/magnets1.jpg
21:35 < fenn> and the maid primitive http://fennetic.net/irc/maid.jpg
21:35 < fenn> and the maze primitive: http://fennetic.net/irc/maze.png
21:41 < kanzure> "This script was originally written by Bryan Bishop and is available for download from here."
21:41 < kanzure> what
21:41 < kanzure> how long have i been at this?
21:43 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c5c8d21 Bryan Bishop: also grab brlcad.org wiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/
21:44 < fenn> it's really weird to look at old screenshots
21:46 < kanzure> whyshat?
21:46 < kanzure> whysthat?
21:47 < fenn> some of them look almost identical to what i have now like this one from 2007 http://fennetic.net/irc/random-screenshot.jpg
21:47 < fenn> for reference this is what i have now http://fennetic.net/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png
21:48 < kanzure> older one is better
21:48 < fenn> but then apparently i switched to kde in 2008? http://fennetic.net/irc/phun.png
21:49 < fenn> i think i had it correct in 2011 http://fennetic.net/irc/ml-class-ex1-divergence.png
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21:51 < fenn> back before tabs were a thing http://fennetic.net/irc/mcmaster_clocks.png
21:53 < fenn> omg he drew this in 2001 http://fennetic.net/irc/blame_and_so_on_108.jpg
21:53 < kanzure> why is that surprising
21:54 < fenn> now everything looks like that on cghub
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22:00 < fenn> jesus christ what am i doing with my life http://fennetic.net/irc/screenshot-09-05-06.png
22:01 < kanzure> wasn't this the free software story about buying a tank
22:02 < fenn> neal stephenson "in the beginning there was the command line"
22:04 < fenn> more importantly the image demonstrates the use of a CSS override
22:05 < fenn> something i (thought i) just learned how to do, after much faffing about
22:09 < AshleyWaffle> any transhumanist people with minecraft? PM me to find out about a project!
22:09 < AshleyWaffle> er, msg, whatevs
22:09 < kanzure> uh..
22:09 < fenn> there were some minecrafters in #swhack
22:10 < kanzure> if everyone just used private conversations, nothing would get said
22:16 < kanzure> fenn, feel free to do python-brlcad stuff instead of wallowing in your anciency
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--- Log closed Mon May 12 00:00:02 2014