--- Log opened Mon May 12 00:00:02 2014 00:07 -!- Burnin8 is now known as Burninate 00:08 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 00:22 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:05 -!- kyknos__ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:13 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:28 -!- Adifex [Adifex@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe6e:f4e8] has joined ##hplusroadmap 01:30 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:32 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:35 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 02:22 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ommcurdrcsndkoyw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 03:01 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:02 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:10 -!- Adifex is now known as Adifex|zzz 04:15 -!- muckyourfuther [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:19 < kanzure> or not 04:22 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:35 < kanzure> so many birds. why can't they be quiet? 04:39 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:50 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:51 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap 04:57 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:29 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:32 < superkuh> http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.3719.html - Reliable induction of lucid dreams through (transcranial?) DC stimulation.Not only is this functionally cool, but it adds more support for the idea that 40 Hz thalamocortical oscillations are necessary (but maybe not sufficient) for consciousness. 05:32 < superkuh> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.3719.html 05:39 < superkuh> Nevermind. LibGen had it. 05:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] 05:47 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap 05:52 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@90.149.182.36] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:16 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-228-227.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:35 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has joined ##hplusroadmap 06:41 < FourFire> fenn I totally agree about energy use, burning oil is a massive waste of extremely useful chemical material: we should be running much more nuclear power 06:43 < FourFire> fenn, 06:43 < FourFire> "that feature size does not seem unreasonable for homebrew non-billion-dollar fabs" were you two discussing DIY processor fabrication later than that? 06:46 < andytoshi> superkuh: pretty neat, i wonder how easy that is to set up at home 06:56 -!- muckyourfuther [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:04 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 07:39 -!- kardan [~kardan@199.254.238.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:24 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-228-227.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:29 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:30 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 08:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:02 < kanzure> fenn: here's a thought, you could always go troll the librarians in #code4lib and tell them how much they failed you 09:02 -!- d1ggy [~diggy@dslb-092-076-008-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:03 < kanzure> http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/hazards-of-the-cloud-data-storage-services-crash-sets-back-researchers/52571 09:04 < kanzure> superkuh: i know someone who desperately wants the opposite function (turning off lucid dreaming) 09:08 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-228-227.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:09 < eudoxia> http://web.archive.org/web/19990501121022/http://www.carol.com/mass.shtml 09:09 < eudoxia> closed-source software (single tear), some pdb's and gifs from like a million years ago 09:09 < kanzure> .title 09:09 < yoleaux> Molecular Assembly Sequence Software 09:30 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:34 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:36 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:36 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:39 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:44 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:46 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 09:47 < kanzure> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7731624 "When I've taken this thought to its extreme, Chuck Moore's ideology around Forth makes total sense: If a problem is only going to be solved in a complex, Byzantine fashion, it's the wrong problem. Walk away from it. Solve a different one. Quit the job. Reconsider your lifestyle. And most people aren't going to be able to consider it seriously on that level. The monstrous systems are there because ... 09:47 < kanzure> ... everyone involved has collectively agreed that whatever is justifying the problem is so important that it's OK to let the resulting system grow monster-sized and swallow everyone up. On that basis the only thing anyone can hope for is a painkiller to make the monster a little less soul-crushing." 10:04 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:09 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 10:30 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-50-228-227.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 10:44 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:52 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:20 -!- escapist_ [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:24 -!- d1ggy [~diggy@dslb-092-076-008-087.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] 11:33 -!- escapist__ [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:34 -!- escapist_ [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:39 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 11:40 -!- dagan [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:42 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 11:46 < kanzure> nothing here is redeeming for anders http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/25cnbr/science_ama_series_we_are_researchers_at_the/?sort=top 11:46 < kanzure> what a disappointment 11:55 < delinquentme> paperbot no here =[ 12:02 -!- escapist__ [d95cdcb8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.92.220.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:09 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 12:24 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41 -!- Adifex|zzz is now known as Adifex 12:45 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.131.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:55 < fenn> yay image maps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Eye_anatomy 12:56 < kanzure> "As for our funding, right now my main funding is actually an industry collaboration with an insurance company (Amlin)!" argh wtf 12:59 < kanzure> how about the existential risk of anders wasting his time 12:59 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:19 -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:32 < fenn> so has chuck moore etched his own processors by hand yet 13:32 < fenn> with a sharp knife on a germanium plate 13:32 < fenn> jk i love chuck moore's approach 13:34 < kanzure> am i supposed to know him? 13:37 < fenn> "colorForth was originally developed as the scripting language for Moore's own homebrew VLSI CAD program OKAD" 13:39 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:39 < fenn> http://www.greenarraychips.com/ i'm not sure how these specs compare to modern things like parallella, but it sounds pretty impressive for one guy's work 13:39 < fenn> .wik parallella 13:39 < yoleaux> "Adapteva is a fabless semiconductor company focusing on low power multi-core microprocessor design. The company was the first company to announce a design with 1000 general-purpose microprocessors on a single chip." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapteva 13:41 < fenn> it is more of a microcontroller mindset than a "miniature supercomputer" 13:46 < ParahSailin> i hope i get mine 13:47 < ParahSailin> it was sent to an old address 13:47 < fenn> forth is very efficient with not just memory and cpu usage, but also screen space of code and lets you mess with the guts of any part of the OS or language; the ability to redefine anything reminds me of lisp 13:48 < fenn> i haven't tried to learn it 13:48 < fenn> it's stack based like postscript 13:50 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:51 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 13:52 < kanzure> .g okad cad vlsi 13:52 < yoleaux> http://www.ultratechnology.com/okad2.htm 13:52 < kanzure> does this just do layout? 13:52 < fenn> there was some criticism that "okad could only be used to design chuck moore's tiny forth chips" 13:52 < fenn> not a "real" (read bloat) computer 13:56 < fenn> "we wrote the 4os operating system and made various all Forth chip and all Forth software web browser and email appliances. After developing products that everyone liked iTV's Board of Directors decided that they didn't want to sell anything and the company was shut down." 13:57 < fenn> http://web.archive.org/web/19990423061233/http://www.itvc.com/Technology/i21.html 13:59 < fenn> "1996 Draper Fisher Jurvetson investment announced." huh 14:01 < fenn> holy crap "A complete Internet system (OS, live Forth system, network stack, flash file system, GIF and JPEG decoder, fonts, network support applications, email and browser customer applications) requires less than 1/2 megabyte of program memory. With boot compression (comes standard, takes about 1 second) that system fits in a 128Kbyte ROM." 14:03 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@ip-64-134-23-98.public.wayport.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:04 -!- Naish411 [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:04 < Naish411> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v509/n7499/full/509166a.html 14:04 -!- Naish411 [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has quit [Client Quit] 14:12 < fenn> "Forth is a semantic language where the syntax is just words with spaces between them and the meaning is the defintion of the words. The words are like LEGO blocks, they snap together or pull apart to facilitate experimentation." 14:20 < QuantumG> I hate those non-semantic languages 14:20 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:20 < fenn> the Novix NC4000 chip had only 4000 gates and ran 40MIPS (forth instructions) at 8 MHz 14:20 < fenn> QuantumG: there is no syntax, i cut and pasted because the author is a bit long-winded 14:21 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:21 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:25 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has joined ##hplusroadmap 14:37 < kanzure> "okad could only be used to design chuck moore's tiny forth chips" is hilarious riticism 14:37 < kanzure> *criticism 14:38 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:39 < kanzure> fenn: what was his justification for being arbitrator of all things in his stack? it's a nice idea, just not sure how he convinced anyone to let him do that 14:39 < kanzure> or maybe just gave everyone the finger 14:39 -!- snuffeluffegus [~John@homie-vserver314.dreamhost.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:40 < fenn> a $100 web browsing computer built into a mouse was pretty impressive for 1996 14:40 < fenn> you hooked it up to a tv's video in (and a modem, presumably) 14:41 < kanzure> yes but this means he invented webtv 14:41 < kanzure> and therefore is the spawn of satan 14:41 < fenn> kanzure: i'm not sure what the problem is with letting your programmer define his environment? it's basically like scheme, where you bootstrap yourself from a minimal syntax (in the case of forth, a minimal set of words) 14:42 < fenn> it is possible to paint yourself into a corner 14:42 < kanzure> well, most people aren't inclined to have a single person design the chip and the stack and the web browser 14:42 < kanzure> because they believe in "team work" 14:42 < fenn> of course 14:42 < kanzure> and patents 14:42 < fenn> see java, c++, total quality management, etc 14:43 < fenn> actually i have no idea what tqm is, but it sounds like butt-hurt 14:43 < kanzure> oh, he created forth. well maybe that's enough sayso. 14:43 < fenn> yes and then he "created" a zillion other *-forths 14:44 < fenn> i'm of the persuasion that humanity discovered math, jmc discovered lisp, moore discovered forth 14:44 < kanzure> and he founded the company. okay, so that's why. 14:44 < fenn> i dont know what a company has to do with it? 14:45 < kanzure> i was wondering why the company had let him design the chip, the cad to design the chip, and the rest of the software stack, and also give him time to implement it 14:45 < kanzure> but it's the other way around; he created the company, so he got to decide what he wanted to do 14:45 < fenn> because, I AM THE LAW!!! 14:46 < kanzure> are there asic fabs that do previous-previous-previous generation fabrication? 14:46 < kanzure> or are you beholden to whatever the latest industrial byproduct is 14:46 < QuantumG> tqm = actually writing down what you're doing, you'd love it. 14:46 < kanzure> like all fads, i'm sure there's a definition that sounds good, and then nobody that follows it 14:47 < QuantumG> people who dislike TQM are almost always of the persuasion that thinks keeping how they do their job secret is the best way to maintain their job. 14:48 < fenn> aside from being "over 9000" what is ISO 9001? 14:48 < fenn> my eyes just glaze over whenever i read anything about it 14:48 < kanzure> .wik iso 9001 14:48 < yoleaux> "ISO 9000 is a series of standards, developed and published by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), that define, establish, and maintain an effective quality assurance system for manufacturing and service industries. The standards are available through national standards bodies." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9001 14:49 < kanzure> in other words, documentation that you don't have 14:49 < fenn> it's based on TQM 14:50 < QuantumG> yeah.. the short version is: document how you make your product, what everyone's job is, how long they take, who was working what days, etc, and if there's a defect found, do root cause analysis. 14:50 < kanzure> do you have access to iso docs? 14:51 < fenn> does this mean i can access their "document how they make their product" or is it just for internal use? 14:51 < QuantumG> I don't think so, I could check.. but I read ISO 9001 and some others many years ago. 14:51 < QuantumG> fenn: internal use.. although I imagine it'd come out in a court case :) 14:52 < fenn> so is coca cola ISO 9001 compliant? 14:52 < QuantumG> almost certainly 14:52 < fenn> even though their recipe is secret 14:52 < kanzure> i think all enterprises go for iso 9001 compliance at this point 14:53 < QuantumG> heh, you actually think Coke's recipe is secret? 14:53 < QuantumG> do you think the KFC recipe is locked in vault and the people who know it aren't allowed to fly together too? 14:53 < fenn> so i've been led to believe 14:54 < fenn> but you're saying there's actually some official binder that the ISO 9001 auditor can read? 14:55 < QuantumG> Coca Cola's recipe is: sell sugared water by telling people it's freedom. 14:55 < fenn> no argument there 14:56 < fenn> i read some "hacker soda" that had a long list of essential oils like lime oil and clove oil and orange oil 14:57 < xmj> 'hacker soda' sounds like club mate 14:57 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@ip-64-134-23-98.public.wayport.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:57 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_(drink) 14:58 < fenn> "2.36 kg plain granulated white table sugar, 2.28 L water" that's more sugar than water! 14:59 < fenn> oh that's the concentrate 14:59 < QuantumG> Pepsi started marketing a caffeinated Mountain Dew in Australia (and Canada) around the same time I stopped drinking sugared drinks. Whatever bonehead in marketing convinced them to go caffeine free outside the US has probably cost them millions. 15:00 < fenn> uh, what's the point if it has no caffeine 15:00 -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.24.244] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:00 < fenn> "look, it's yellow and tastes like crap!" 15:01 < QuantumG> I know right.. if I want a caffeine free soda I'll drink Sprite Zero (with vodka) 15:02 < fenn> grape juice and seltzer 15:03 < fenn> seems like a balanced electrolyte solution with the correct amount of sugar would not be a bad idea 15:03 < fenn> glucose that is 15:03 < fenn> just don't water your plants with it 15:06 < fenn> here's to hoping that ubuntu sticks to making free software distributions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Cola 15:07 < QuantumG> 1. someone sends you an email saying they've completed some work you need to do a task 2. you email them and tell them that they seem to have screwed something up 3. they fix it, but don't reply to your email to tell you 4. you murder them with an axe. Would any court convict? 15:08 -!- EnLilaSko [EnLilaSko@unaffiliated/enlilasko] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:08 < fenn> "El Ché-Cola Company, which donates 50% of its net profits to NGOs that fight against world hunger." named after Che Guevara 15:10 < fenn> "Mecca-Cola is marketed as an alternative to U.S. brands such as Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola to "pro-Muslim" consumers." 15:10 < fenn> they totally ripped off the coca cola logo, i'm surprised they haven't been sued to oblivion 15:11 < QuantumG> it's probably Coke in disguise 15:11 < fenn> that would be perfect 15:11 < kanzure> freedom isn't pro-muslim people? 15:11 < fenn> not when "freedom" is defined as "good old fashioned american values" and "santa claus" 15:12 < kanzure> can i convince you to do python-brlcad things 15:12 < QuantumG> and beach parties, don't forget beach parties 15:12 < kanzure> think of all the terrible gundams you could be designing 15:12 < fenn> you don't need to convince me 15:12 < fenn> i have to clear off my virtual desktop 15:12 < kanzure> http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/105/8/e/what_if_i_told_you_by_heroforpain-d61vzyl.jpg 15:13 < kanzure> bbl 15:14 < fenn> http://fennetic.net/irc/ram_full_htop_screenshot.png 15:14 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-3-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:15 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: No calling card for the unsung bard] 15:16 < fenn> i dont get why i have so many chrome processes open, all my tabs have been killed 15:16 < QuantumG> it's probably process pooling 15:16 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:18 < fenn> view from the other side of the fence http://fennetic.net/irc/chrome_task_manager.png 15:20 < eudoxia> who uses tineye anymore now that google does reverse image search 15:20 < fenn> me? 15:21 < eudoxia> i thought maybe you hadn't heard since you were dead for two years or something 15:21 < fenn> google is much better but i often don't want to go into chrome just so i can use google's image search (it doesn't let you do image search without javascript) 15:22 < eudoxia> ah, right, dillo 15:23 < fenn> sometimes i wonder if the standard interface actually works for most people or if they're just not doing very much 15:23 < fenn> by "standard" i mean a big desktop computer running windows whatever and 16GB of ram 15:24 < eudoxia> google's tools have become a little web 2.0 for me. if you type or click on the wrong part of the search results by accident the whole thing clears and it's like auughhhhhhh 15:24 < fenn> yeah i can't figure out whether the image is part of the query or not 15:25 < QuantumG> 1. google for X 2. discover it's called Y 3. start typing Y into the search box -> the search automatically changes while you're typing hiding what you were reading. 15:26 < fenn> i'd love to have some tooltip thingy that you can just right click->get info and a little bubble with thumbnails and context pops up 15:27 < eudoxia> startpage is rather nice 15:27 < fenn> instead of "here's fifty images that look exactly alike and some urls we've truncated" 15:29 < fenn> can you do search by image with startpage? 15:29 < eudoxia> doesn't seem that way 15:30 < fenn> personally i don't give a shit about "tracking" 15:30 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@37-48-42-249.tmcz.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap 15:30 < fenn> but using services like this gives you a false sense of security 15:31 < fenn> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/01/tracking-by-user-agent 15:32 < fenn> https://panopticlick.eff.org/index.php?action=log 15:32 < eudoxia> i wonder if there's a list of most common user agents 15:33 < justanotheruser> eudoxia: 1st place is probably the Tor Firefox bundle 15:33 < fenn> "Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 4,117,834 tested so far." (for chrome) 15:34 < fenn> nevermind IP, cookie attacks, web beacons, usernames, writing analysis, and so on 15:37 < QuantumG> irc logs 15:44 -!- kyknos [~kyknos@37-48-42-249.tmcz.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:59 -!- augur [~augur@216-164-48-148.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:01 -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:02 < jrayhawk> google image search works fine without javascript 16:14 < eudoxia> reverse search 16:40 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:42 -!- sapiosexual [~sapiosexu@d75-156-88-7.bchsia.telus.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:50 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.10.112] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:50 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@78.174.10.112] has quit [Changing host] 16:50 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has joined ##hplusroadmap 16:53 < dingo> i got greetz'd in an artpack :-) http://www.asciiarena.com/info_release.php?filename=aW1wLW5oLnR4dA== 17:07 -!- Naish411 [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:27 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:43 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:47 -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap 17:48 < QuantumG> the early 1990s called, they want their propz back 17:49 -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:00 < jrayhawk> the ANSI charset would just confuse the artpack community back then 18:00 < jrayhawk> honestly, a macron overline? what the hell is that shit? 18:04 < fenn> is an "ansi charset" just a pixel font for a terminal? 18:06 < fenn> i don't understand why it's all images 18:09 < QuantumG> You mean, why that website renders it for you? 18:10 < jrayhawk> ASCII had a standard pixel font, I don't think ANSI ever did. 18:16 -!- Naish411 [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:16 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:16 < fenn> i knew that sounded familiar http://fennetic.net/irc/charlotte_gainsbourg_IRM.mp3 18:17 -!- Guest98645 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:18 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:18 -!- pads is now known as Guest26539 18:21 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-82-54-237.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:21 -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-198-154-167.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:22 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:27 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:35 < fenn> forth would be so much better if it were just lowercase 18:37 < QuantumG> have ya discovered color forth yet? 18:37 < fenn> i'm not sure about the whole idea 18:38 < fenn> i guess you could say "everyone uses syntax coloring anyway so why not just use color for syntax the way python uses whitespace for block delimiters" but i'm sure these arguments have been hashed over and over on usenet before i was born 18:39 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:39 < QuantumG> check more crazy into forth, amiright? 18:39 < fenn> i dunno i mean the brain only has so many input channels, might as well make use of them 18:40 < fenn> the big problem seems to be bit rot? like i'm finding code last updated in 1992 18:40 < QuantumG> this shit is hilarious: http://www.colorforth.com/1percent.html 18:41 < fenn> oh i believe it, there have been similar essays about lisp vs c 18:41 < QuantumG> it's like Poe's law on steroids 18:41 < fenn> .wik poe's law 18:41 < yoleaux> "Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law 18:42 < QuantumG> "There are no errors that can be detected." is the funniest sentence in there. 18:42 < fenn> he is serious 18:42 < QuantumG> yeah, but if you were trying to write a parody, you couldn't do better. 18:42 < fenn> since there is no syntax, there are no errors that can be detected by the compiler 18:43 < fenn> everything compiles 18:43 < fenn> it just probably doesn't do what you want the first time 18:43 < fenn> this is considered a bad thing by haskell people 18:43 < fenn> do you like "bondage and discipline" or "freedom"? 18:44 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap 18:45 < QuantumG> do you, like, find employment? 18:45 < fenn> please rephrase the question 18:46 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 18:46 < fenn> "can you get hired at a java shop?" 18:46 < QuantumG> your concerns never seem to be about practical things.. like working with other humans. 18:46 < fenn> probably because i hate most people 18:46 < QuantumG> I could ask this another way.. how do you feel about Perl? 18:47 < fenn> perl reminds me of digging through a scrap heap 18:47 < fenn> there's probably something good in there, but you have to plough through all the garbage in the way to find it 18:47 < QuantumG> right.. well, Forth is like that, but it's an alien scrap heap 18:47 < fenn> yeah :( 18:48 < kanzure> fenn stopped me from writing more perl 18:48 < kanzure> although i think i knew it was about time anyway 18:48 < QuantumG> Perl is your write-once language.. Forth is your I'd-write-once-if-I-was-crazy language. 18:48 < fenn> perl got me to learn regular expressions and vim, so it wasn't a total waste 18:49 < fenn> perl isn't write-once it's just kinda amateurish 18:49 < QuantumG> hmm.. write-only.. I knew what I meant anyway. 18:49 < QuantumG> write-once is considered the extreme alternative to Perl that I don't subscribe to either. 18:50 < fenn> this is not too hard to understand ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Applications/99beers.f 18:50 < eudoxia> lisp is "write once then go back to hiding under your blankie pretending someone else will read it" 18:53 < fenn> 1 ?: BOTTLE(S) BOTTLE BOTTLES 18:53 < fenn> i mean you don't even have to know forth to figure out how that works 18:55 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MxGtH-2duM 18:55 < yoleaux> JAPANESE SPIDER-MAN TRAILER - MARVEL.COM 18:56 < fenn> can people print out moth robots yet 18:57 < kanzure> you can capture moths and stick thumbtacks in them 18:57 < kanzure> i mean thumbtack microcontrollers 18:57 < fenn> you're thinking of the cyborg beetle 18:57 < fenn> .wik cyborg beetle 18:57 < yoleaux> "A cyborg, short for "cybernetic organism", is a being with both organic and biomechatronic parts. See for example biomaterials, bionics and biomechatronics. The term was coined in 1960 by Manfred Clynes and Nathan S. Kline. D." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg 18:57 < fenn> hm 18:59 < cluckj> beetleborgs? 18:59 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPX-FX0KStE 18:59 < yoleaux> 'Japanese Spider-Man' - Intro 18:59 < kanzure> so in japanese spiderman, he rides a motorcycle and controls a giant mecha and has a japanese martial arts style 18:59 < kanzure> also he carries an automatic gun because why not? 19:00 < fenn> well this is a not too bad article http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/Cyborg_Beetles.pdf 19:01 < kanzure> subtitles on this one are pretty funny: 19:01 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpzvap_y6CI 19:01 < yoleaux> Spiderman 1978 Pilot Episode 19:01 < kanzure> "wow there is a giant robot why is there a giant robot? how could marvel ever agree to something like this? 19:02 < kanzure> too bad this isn't starring bruce lee. hrm. 19:04 < catern> spaidaman 19:05 < fenn> .title http://www.biotele.com/robomoth.html 19:05 < yoleaux> Pentagon plans cyber-insect army 19:06 < fenn> much more scalable than hand wiring each bug 19:06 < fenn> omg a buttered cat-toast device 19:06 < fenn> "Attach a bomb to a cat and drop it from a dive-bomber on to Nazi ships. The cat, hating water, will "wrangle" itself on to enemy ship's deck." 19:07 < fenn> kamikazekat 19:07 < kanzure> these people seem to know what roshi is for: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7732696 19:07 < eudoxia> kamicate 19:07 < fenn> Syringes later placed on dolphin flippers to inject carbon dioxide into divers, who explode. US Navy has always denied using mammals to harm humans 19:07 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:08 < kanzure> this guy was head of us navy animal ops for a few decades: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/bailey/ 19:09 < kanzure> "Then I was hired along as a US Navy dolphin project. I met the Brelands. Bailey joined ABE in 1965. keller Breland died in 1965. Our objective, our objective was to combine animal training with evolutionary biology, whatever you wish to call it, I joined in 1965." 19:10 < FourFire> fenn wtf wut? 19:10 < fenn> FourFire: from the last link i pasted 19:11 < kanzure> "these dolphins are property of the us navy. they were specially trained to serve as submarine torpedos. there is a special launch system designed by none other than temple grandin." 19:12 < fenn> jesus christ she gives aspies a bad name 19:12 < FourFire> ... 19:12 < fenn> "how to efficiently do horrible things" 19:12 < kanzure> what's wrong with efficiency 19:12 < fenn> it's wrong when you're doing horrible things with it 19:12 < kanzure> so let's be horribly inefficient instead? 19:12 < FourFire> temple grandin: devising dolphin torpedo tubes 19:13 < kanzure> FourFire: no, he's referring to the 1 million cows slaughtered per day 19:13 < QuantumG> this is just more evidence that dolphins are useless 19:13 < fenn> blowing up dolphins who think you're their friend is pretty bad too 19:13 < FourFire> yeah, well everyone who eats beef has to agree that efficiency and minimized suffering is net positive utility 19:13 < FourFire> and it really was about reducing suffering, with the economic incentive for deployment of these systems being increased efficiency 19:13 < QuantumG> no they don't 19:13 < kanzure> go back to lesswrong 19:14 < kanzure> you're terrible at this 19:14 < FourFire> kanzure, I know, but I'll keep accepting your encouraging advice ;) 19:14 < kanzure> while ignoring it.. let me guess, you're now going to rant about utility functions for the next week 19:15 < eudoxia> dolphins > dumb ass cows 19:15 < FourFire> but yeah weaponized dolphins, that's wrong 19:15 < FourFire> kanzure, uhh no I'd rather not, I get enough of that in the other channel 19:15 < QuantumG> everyone who eats beef has to agree that beef is delicious, otherwise they'd eat something else <- even that's a contentious argument 19:15 < fenn> you have to admit there's a difference between a dolphin with weapons and an unwitting suicide bomber dolphin 19:15 < kanzure> QuantumG: agreed that it is contentious 19:15 < FourFire> cheaper meh beef is better for them though, right? 19:16 < FourFire> (the ones who don't agree) 19:16 < QuantumG> better for what? 19:16 < kanzure> and who gets to decide better 19:17 < kanzure> or the spectrum, or whether or not it's a spectrum, and the methods of measurement 19:17 * kanzure glares at FourFire 19:17 < QuantumG> also racism 19:17 < kanzure> hm? 19:17 < QuantumG> why not 19:17 * FourFire waves cheerily back 19:18 < kanzure> well, by spectrum i mean better/worse spectrum- but there's many more variables going on here other than just "better for my argument" 19:18 < kanzure> sure, let's make models so simple that they don't do anything interesting 19:18 -!- pyotra [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has quit [Quit: quit] 19:19 < kanzure> QuantumG: on a related note, i am interested in whether you have an opinion on human cannibalism, and what the opinion is 19:19 < QuantumG> only if its voluntary 19:19 < QuantumG> consenting adults and all 19:20 -!- FourFire [~fourfire@90.149.182.36] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] 19:20 < kanzure> oh right, i guess there's a range of activity that might imply (human hunting, dead person no other food scenarios, consenting cannibalism), bleh nevermind 19:20 < fenn> "Ukrainian navy's dolphins based in Sevastopol switched sides to Russia" 19:21 < QuantumG> heh 19:21 < kanzure> i haven't heard anyone suggesting that there should be human hunting (for purposes of game food), but there's probably someone somewhere that wants that 19:21 < fenn> damn you ungrateful fish whores! 19:22 < fenn> it was teh caviar 19:22 < QuantumG> the most dangerous sport 19:22 < QuantumG> eat what you catch 19:22 < kanzure> i feel like that was a movie 19:22 < kanzure> had lots of terrible one liners 19:22 < eudoxia> i think it was an episode of the simpsons 19:22 < fenn> .g the metamorphosis of prime intellect 19:22 < yoleaux> http://localroger.com/prime-intellect/ 19:22 < QuantumG> heh 19:22 < kanzure> captain freedom was in it 19:23 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazUZz3K6IY 19:23 < yoleaux> Captain Freedom's Workout Commercial 19:24 < fenn> bloodsport, predator, running man, jeez there's a whole list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hunting 19:24 < fenn> Slave Girls from Beyond Infinity is a 1987 film that transports “The Most Dangerous Game” to an alien world and populates it with bikini-clad space prison escapees and weird space monsters. 19:25 < kanzure> also there was an anime about this, with the black black club 19:28 < fenn> "The killer originated the name "Zodiac" in a series of taunting letters sent to the local Bay Area press. These letters included four cryptograms (or ciphers). Of the four cryptograms sent, only one has been definitively solved." 19:28 < fenn> man this should be like crypto 101 introduction to cryptanalysis project 19:34 < QuantumG> is metagenomics actually good for anything? 19:35 < fenn> studying things you can't culture easily 19:36 -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r186-55-3-32.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: leaving] 19:36 < QuantumG> fair enough 19:37 < fenn> so i dunno if you can grow Thermus aquaticus on LB agar 19:38 < fenn> it is sometimes found living jointly with its neighbors, obtaining energy for growth from their photosynthesis. 19:39 < gnusha> https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c802ae7 Bryan Bishop: heuristics about failing fast >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/ 19:39 < fenn> "Researchers working in National Parks are now required to sign "benefits sharing" agreements that would send a portion of later profits back to the Park Service." 19:39 < fenn> becuase the National Parks invented the universe 19:40 < kanzure> "and this is the national park of outer space" 19:41 < fenn> uh, it's not too far off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty 19:42 < kanzure> good thing i do not respect that treaty (i am a martian native, you see, and i have come here to setup the martian embassy on earth) 19:42 < fenn> " common heritage of humankind or common heritage principle) is a principle of international law which holds that defined territorial areas and elements of humanity's common heritage (cultural and natural) should be held in trust for future generations and be protected from exploitation by individual nation states or corporations." 19:43 -!- NovemberCharlie [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap 19:43 < kanzure> ah, only nation states and corporations 19:43 < kanzure> so individuals are free to do whatever 19:43 < fenn> that's my reading of it 19:43 < kanzure> :stamp of approval: 19:43 < fenn> corporations and nations are hereby confined to planet earth 19:43 < fenn> done and done 19:43 < kanzure> you should fix http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/heuristics 19:44 < QuantumG> I once saw a particularly large and strange bug at a 7/11, never saw one like it again, asked a few entomologists about it and got blank looks.. concluded that it was an alien come to Earth to investigate franchise opportunities. 19:44 < kanzure> i'm certain that australia has lots of bugs that nobody has studied in great detail 19:44 < fenn> "their sugar production is of adequate efficiency" 19:44 < cluckj> earth slurpees are easy 19:45 < fenn> kanzure why dont you just ask for "the answer to life, the universe, and everything" 19:45 < kanzure> i already know that one 19:46 < kanzure> asking you to edit a wiki page is not too burdening 19:47 < QuantumG> people who worry that their wiki will get defaced have clearly never set up a wiki before. 19:47 < fenn> i'm supposed to be closing tabs, not opening new ones 19:48 < kanzure> you have the file locally anyway 19:48 < fenn> also these are hard questions 19:48 < kanzure> well someone has to write them down 19:48 < fenn> "number of bugs"? maybe you should ask steve rayhawk to write this 19:49 < kanzure> i did, and he told me to ask za3k 19:50 < fenn> i'm interested in the concept of cognitive load, but i don't know if i know enough in an abstract sense to write about it yet 19:50 < kanzure> cognitive impedance might belong on that page, maybe 19:50 < fenn> my gut feeling is that trying to calculate the "cost" in dollars is misguided at best 19:51 < kanzure> costs don't have to be dollars 19:51 < fenn> since the value (utility) of anything is completely subjective 19:51 < kanzure> there are inefficiencies that can add and multiply up 19:51 < kanzure> i would clearly fail to build a dyson sphere today 19:51 < QuantumG> ya don't know if ya don't try 19:51 < kanzure> (i mean today-today, not "in general") 19:51 < fenn> how much does a dyson sphere cost? what's it worth? 19:52 < kanzure> well, there's a minimum energy cost to deploying a dyson sphere i think 19:52 < kanzure> it doesn't just poof into existence: the material has to come from somewhere 19:52 < fenn> i saw donald trump's "selling the united states of america" and it was disappointing 19:52 < QuantumG> You're Fired 19:52 < kanzure> and i don't mean that you have to "pay" with "dollars", but you definitely have to hook up the right resource sinks and resource pumps 19:52 < fenn> he estimates the value of everything inside the US borders (excluding, notably, intellectual property) 19:53 < fenn> so the neat thing about a dyson sphere is it bootstraps 19:54 < fenn> the more solar panels you build, the more power you have to build the rest 19:54 < kanzure> power isn't the only input 19:54 < kanzure> and you're ignoring my point 19:55 < fenn> so you want a heuristic of manual vs automatization but want everything to be automated? 19:55 < kanzure> because i want a heuristic, i therefore want everything automated? 19:55 < fenn> if you want to build a dyson sphere, it's gonna have to be automated 19:55 < fenn> unless you have really strong arms 19:55 < kanzure> probably, but at some point i have to press a button or two 19:56 < kanzure> probably write some code 19:56 < kanzure> build some stuff 19:56 < kanzure> you know, the usual 19:56 < fenn> ok, hows this for a heuristic: code should be written manually, everything else should be automated 19:56 < fenn> the "don't repeat yourself" principle 19:56 < kanzure> everything everything? 19:56 < fenn> sure why not 19:57 < kanzure> well, it's certainly page-appropriate, but i'm not sure it's a good idea 19:57 < fenn> i mean people can still cook or garden as a hobby if they want 19:57 < fenn> nobody sews their own clothes from yarn they wove from flax they spun anymore 19:57 < kanzure> you mean like why_'s lungs growing into his shitty cpu and finally convincing his computer to do manual tasks for him, without moving, etc 19:57 < kanzure> there are in fact spinsters 19:57 < fenn> .d spinster 19:58 < kanzure> and even hipster spinsters 19:58 < yoleaux> spinster (/ˈspɪnstə/): n. An unmarried woman, typically an older woman beyond the usual age for marriage — http://is.gd/AoQEEQ 19:58 < kanzure> oh wait 19:58 < kanzure> hm that's wrong 19:58 < kanzure> they spin yarn 19:58 < fenn> nobody spins their own yarn 19:58 < kanzure> is my point 19:58 < kanzure> then how do you explain etsy 19:58 < fenn> it's a hobby 19:58 < kanzure> but also they make money from it 19:59 < fenn> unfortunately i've purged from my mind all the horrible things people do to make money 19:59 < kanzure> so, i can't think of many hardware projects (other than microchips?) where you don't actually have to do anything manually 19:59 < kanzure> i mean physical labor 20:00 < fenn> have you seen "how it's made"? 20:00 < kanzure> of course 20:00 < kanzure> there are often shots of non-automated stuff happening 20:00 < kanzure> and even some partially-automated factories where people are doing physical labor 20:00 < fenn> ok so the LEGO factory is 100% automated, plastic granules come in one side and boxes full of LEGO come out the other 20:00 < kanzure> in most cases, the people can be replaced by mechanisms once someone decides that's a reasonable business expense 20:00 < fenn> but then they have shit like antique boot spurs where the guy is cutting pieces of metal with a file 20:01 < fenn> there's no real difference in complexity 20:01 < fenn> i mean, the guy probably just likes using a file and invented a reason to justify his hobby 20:01 < kanzure> those are established factories, i'm talking about engineering projects, where you're building the factory, or the project, etc 20:02 < kanzure> if you go hang out with the industrial automation engineers, i bet they do tons of manual tasks when they're prototyping out the equipment that they'll eventually move to the factory floor 20:02 < fenn> aside from prototyping i don't see why this should ever happen 20:02 < QuantumG> I watched a movie last night from 2006.. no-one used a mobile phone, so it could have been made in the 1960s. 20:02 < kanzure> fenn: because waiting for your lungs to interface with the cpu is yak shaving 20:02 < fenn> i don't get that reference 20:03 < fenn> some kind of brain implant argument? 20:03 < kanzure> yes you do.. 20:03 < fenn> didn't why_ commit "info suicide"? 20:03 < fenn> i don't understand that either 20:03 < fenn> basing your arguments on hypothetical actions of a crazy person is a bad argument 20:04 < QuantumG> "Yak shaving is what you are doing when you're doing some stupid, fiddly little task that bears no obvious relationship to what you're supposed to be working on, but yet a chain of twelve causal relations links what you're doing to the original meta-task." Carlin J. Vieri, a Ph.D. at MIT back in the 90s. 20:04 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:04 < kanzure> "And you know (you’ve got to know!) that this is going to turn into an obsession. First, you’ll completely forget to take the dog out. It’ll be standing by the screen door, darting its head about, as your eyes devour the code, as your fingers slip messages to the computer." 20:05 < kanzure> "Thanks to your neglect, things will start to break. Your mounds of printed sheets of code will cover up your air vents. Your furnace will choke. The trash will pile-up: take-out boxes you hurriedly ordered in, junk mail you couldn’t care to dispose of. Your own uncleanliness will pollute the air. Moss will infest the rafters, the water will clog, animals will let themselves in, trees will come up through the foundations." 20:05 -!- pads [~not@100.43.114.90] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:05 < kanzure> "But your computer will be well-cared for. And you, Smotchkkiss, will have nourished it with your knowledge. In the eons you will have spent with your machine, you will have become part-CPU. And it will have become part-flesh. Your arms will flow directly into its ports. Your eyes will accept the video directly from DVI-24 pin. Your lungs will sit just above the processor, cooling it." 20:05 < kanzure> "And just as the room is ready to force itself shut upon you, just as all the overgrowth swallows you and your machine, you will finish your script. You and the machine together will run this latest Ruby script, the product of your obsession." 20:05 < kanzure> "And the script will fire up chainsaws to trim the trees, hearths to warm and regulate the house. Builder nanites will rush from your script, reconstructing your quarters, retiling, renovating, chroming, polishing, disinfecting." 20:05 < kanzure> "Mighty androids will force your crumbling house into firm, rigid architecture. Great pillars will rise, statues chiseled. You will have dominion over this palatial estate and over the encompassing mountains and islands of your stronghold." 20:05 -!- pads is now known as Guest61721 20:05 < kanzure> "And so was born the Second Law of the Civilized Worlds, which was that Man could not stare too long at the faces of the Computer or her children, and still remain as Man." 20:05 -!- Guest26539 [~not@100.43.114.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:06 < fenn> .wik childhood's end 20:06 < yoleaux> "Childhood's End is a 1953 science fiction novel by the British author Arthur C. Clarke. The story follows the peaceful alien invasion of Earth by the mysterious Overlords, whose arrival begins decades of apparent utopia under indirect alien rule, at the cost of human identity and culture." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End 20:07 < kanzure> oh not not my human identity.. what an asshole. 20:08 < kanzure> fenn: would you agree that there is sometimes an initial amount of repetition before you have an opportunity to (or even a clue as to how to efficiently) not repeat yourself 20:08 < QuantumG> Childhood's End is Arthur C. Clarke's fantasy that humanity become pets. 20:08 -!- NovemberCharlie [43a90b5d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.169.11.93] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:08 < kanzure> that sounds like a boring scifi story 20:09 < kanzure> where's my "riding maser beams across the sky" and my "light cone computational field" shit.. blah. 20:09 < fenn> QuantumG: no, it was the adults that became pets. the children became some higher power 20:10 < fenn> clarke was too vague about the details 20:10 < kanzure> waiting for hardware to happen to you is a bad plan 20:10 < fenn> the "overlords" showed up to keep the children from blowing up the planet in an infant rage 20:11 < kanzure> it's practically the same plan as the rest of the transhumanists 20:11 < fenn> anyway there's probably some science fiction law preceding "the Second Law of the Civilized Worlds" 20:12 < kanzure> yes zindell undoubtedly took that from somewhere, and if nowhere obvious then probably the amish 20:12 < fenn> fucking info suicide, wtf is that shit 20:12 < kanzure> the rest was written by that ruby programmer, why_ 20:12 < QuantumG> yeah, nuclear annihilation was fashion of misanthropy at the time, just as climate change is now. It's not exactly relevant. What is relevant is that he made it abundantly clear that he preferred servitude to overloads. 20:12 < fenn> how about info homicide 20:14 < fenn> "from A Requiem for Homo Sapiens, by Horthy Hosthoh 20:15 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:17 < fenn> so is why_ arguing that automation is good or bad? 20:17 < kanzure> he was writing that for unrelated reasons 20:17 < kanzure> something about it helping you to learn ruby 20:18 < fenn> i'm looking at this thinking, if i'm integrated into a computer with nanites at my disposal, why do i need a house? 20:19 < kanzure> he's not claiming that learning ruby will cause you to create nanites 20:19 < kanzure> this should be on the wiki page.. 20:19 -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19 < fenn> i actually read that "guide to ruby" with the intent of learning ruby... 20:21 < kanzure> class str << def init(x) segfault end; 20:23 < kanzure> how is "don't repeat yourself hardware-style" going to work out for your "pick up and leave and recreate wherever i happen to be" strategy? seems counter-indicative. 20:24 < fenn> oh that's just object code 20:24 < kanzure> huh? 20:24 < fenn> the "stuff" is a compilation product 20:24 < kanzure> repeating is compiling it yourself again 20:24 < fenn> yes this is why we need a matter compiler 20:25 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 20:25 < kanzure> yak shaving.. 20:25 < fenn> not at all 20:25 < fenn> it's the whole point 20:25 < fenn> show me something better to work on 20:25 -!- Vutral [~ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:26 < fenn> ok there's "not dying" that's a pretty high priority immediate need 20:26 < fenn> but i dont know how to make progress on that aside from the basics 20:26 < kanzure> i posit that it is possible to do things without a matter compiler 20:27 < fenn> it's also possible to spin yarn by hand and make an ugly frock 20:27 < fenn> .d frock 20:27 < yoleaux> frock (/frɒk/): n. 1. A woman’s or girl’s dress: her new party ⁓; 2. A loose outer garment, in particular; 3. The work and position of a priest: such words as these cost the preacher his ⁓ — http://is.gd/k1bC4e 20:28 < kanzure> yep 20:28 < fenn> monk stuff 20:28 < fenn> self-flagellation 20:28 < fenn> some people knit for fun 20:29 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:29 < fenn> i'd like to know how to bootstrap from mud and sticks, but it's not a requirement for a matter compiler to run on dirt and sticks 20:29 < fenn> besides, sticks have a fair amount of processing done to them already 20:29 < fenn> dirt and sunlight 20:29 < fenn> ok 20:30 < fenn> p. aeruginosa can do quite a lot with that 20:30 < kanzure> the whole point was regarding repeating yourself, and now there's a matter compiler involved that doesn't exist or something.. 20:31 < fenn> " hydrocarbon-using microorganism (or "HUM bug")" 20:31 < kanzure> this doesn't seem to explain the existence of any working technology whatsoever- if to do things required a matter compiler, why do we have particle colliders, space shuttles and a supercomputer in everyone's pocket? 20:31 < fenn> we don't 20:31 < fenn> because we don't have a matter compiler 20:31 < fenn> oh i thought you meant "a particle collider and a space shuttle in everyone's pocket" 20:31 < kanzure> i feel like you're ignoring the original questions, and instead injecting your santa clause machine wish list 20:32 < kanzure> i'm well aware of your wish list 20:32 < kanzure> perhaps the most aware 20:32 -!- AshleyWaffle [~waffle@gateway/tor-sasl/anastasiawyatt] has joined ##hplusroadmap 20:32 < fenn> 1) santa claus machine 2) ??? 3) relax 20:34 < fenn> i'm not sure i understand the principle of least power 20:35 < kanzure> it should be called a shenron machine instead of a santa claus machine 20:35 < kanzure> who name's this shit? 20:36 < fenn> people who dont watch kids anime 20:36 < kanzure> shenron is way cooler than santa claus 20:37 < kanzure> "kids, you better behave, because the giant terrifying dragon in the sky will not grant your wish otherwise" 20:38 < fenn> santa claus was much more scary in the old world versions 20:38 < QuantumG> and Futurama 20:38 < fenn> "kids you better behave or black pete will put you in his knapsack and force you to work in the arsenic mines" 20:38 -!- lichen [~lichen@c-50-139-11-6.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 20:38 < kanzure> that is acceptable 20:39 < QuantumG> equally naughty 20:39 < fenn> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_Fair) 20:40 < fenn> and somehow we ended up with an interstate highway system 20:47 < fenn> bucky fuller said "never build something if you can buy it" 20:48 < fenn> see how well that turned out 20:51 < fenn> this article makes the dolphin thing seem okay http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609569/Could-American-Russian-combat-dolphins-clash-Black-Sea-Ukraine-crisis.html 20:52 < fenn> "Last year three of five spy dolphins went absent without leave in the Black Sea - apparently in search of love, but returned to their duties shortly afterwards." 20:55 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:55 < QuantumG> well, that's a pain 20:56 < QuantumG> case sensitive login username.. Firefox keeps "fixing" the case 20:56 -!- smeaaagle [~smeaaagle@2002:6ca6:4fb1::6ca6:4fb1] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:03 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm113.kappa36.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:03 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@cm113.kappa36.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 21:03 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap 21:09 < kanzure> finding out-of-map errors are a handy way of estimating when you've played a certain game too much 21:15 -!- ElixirVitae [~Shehrazad@unaffiliated/shehrazad] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:15 < kanzure> fenn: you're aware that you're still ignoring my earlier statements, right? 21:16 < QuantumG> so, is "Schulz" pronounced with a t sound after the l or not? 21:16 < kanzure> depends on the family, you'll have to ask them 21:16 < QuantumG> heh 21:17 < kanzure> and sometimes even if there is a t, they keep it silent 21:18 < kanzure> fenn: you should write a tetris packer for moving and packing cars, where you estimate the size of each of your possessions to determine if there's a way to get everything in there 21:21 -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-76-167-105-53.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29 < kanzure> i wonder if product recall announcements can be forged 21:39 < fenn> 3d nesting inventory is definitely on the project list 21:39 < fenn> the fish tub system works great except i have no source for new fish tubs 21:40 < kanzure> i don't think nesting inventory is what i said 21:41 < fenn> generic DC2115-12 industrial totes are the next best commodity 21:42 < fenn> what's the difference between nesting inventory and packing cars? 21:42 < kanzure> " I keenly felt the challenges of making APIs that "looked" like function calls to a programmer but took place across a network fabric and thus introduced error conditions that couldn't exist in locally called routines. (like the inability to return from the function due to a network partition for a simple example). Lamport's work in this space is brilliant and inspired. Network systems can be analysed and reasoned about as physical systems ... 21:43 < kanzure> ... when they exhibit discontinuities when considered as simple algorithms. The value here is to realize that a large number of physical systems tolerate a tremendous amount of randomness and continue to work as intended (windmills for example) while many algorithms only work consistently given a set of key invariants. I gave a talk that was inspired by Dr. Lamports work titled 'Java as Newtonian Physics' which was a call to action to create ... 21:43 < kanzure> ... a set of invariants, in the spirit of physical laws, that would govern the behavior and capabilities of distributed systems. It was way early for its time (AOL dialup connections were still a thing) but much of the same inspiration (presumably from Lamport) made it into the Google Spanner project." 21:45 < fenn> Spanner, a NewSQL distributed relational database by Google. It can distribute and store data in data centers across the world, provide consistency that is as excellent as in RDBMS while enabling to store an amount of data that exceeds the capacity of a single data center. 21:45 < kanzure> well the way you say it makes it sound boring 21:46 < kanzure> i mean spanner 21:46 < kanzure> (never heard of it) 21:46 < fenn> it does sound boring 21:46 < kanzure> sheena1: there are dolphin training things in the scrollback 21:50 < fenn> today i learned that ben franklin introduced tofu curry to the united states 21:51 < fenn> London, January 11, 1770 21:51 < fenn> “My ever dear Friend: I send Chinese Garavances. Cheese [is] made of them, in China, which so excited my curiosity. Some runnings of salt (I suppose runnet) is put into water, when the meal is in it, to turn to curds. These … are what the Tau-fu is made of.” 21:52 < ParahSailin> runnet? 21:52 < fenn> rennet 21:53 < ParahSailin> is that how they spelled rennet back then? 21:53 < fenn> people just spelled however they felt until 1600 something 21:54 < fenn> .ety rennet 21:54 < yoleaux> rennet (n.1): ""inner membrane of a calf's fourth stomach," c.1400, probably from an unrecorded Old English *rynet, related to gerennan "cause to run together," because it makes milk run or curdle; from Proto-Germanic *rannijanan, causative of *renwanan " …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=rennet 21:55 < fenn> the chinese apparently forgot to tell the westerners that you're supposed to ferment the soybeans 21:55 < ParahSailin> not for tofu 21:56 < ParahSailin> the important piece they left out was that it is supposed to be vitriol of lime to make it curdle 21:56 < fenn> .d vitriol of lime 21:56 < yoleaux> Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'vitriol of lime'. 21:56 < fenn> me either 21:57 < ParahSailin> we call it gypsum now 21:57 < fenn> apparently magnesium chloride works too 21:57 < ParahSailin> yeah divalent cation is the magic trick 21:58 < fenn> oh vitriol is just sulfuric acid 21:59 < sheena1> kanzure: how far, who/ 21:59 < fenn> it does look glassy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(II)_sulfate 22:00 < fenn> sheena1: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/bailey/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609569/Could-American-Russian-combat-dolphins-clash-Black-Sea-Ukraine-crisis.html 22:06 < fenn> does anyone have ferrous chloride laying around? want to verify that it is attracted to a magnet? 22:06 < fenn> er, ferric chloride solution 22:06 < ParahSailin> that doesnt seem likely 22:06 < fenn> supposedly it is paramagnetic 22:07 < fenn> and other iron sulfates and salts 22:07 < ParahSailin> i would think that you wouldnt notice it in solution 22:09 < fenn> oh wait, that's "1-butyl-3-methylimidazolium chloride and ferric chloride." 22:10 < ParahSailin> ionic liquids are cool 22:10 < fenn> yeah, i wash my dishes with them 22:11 < kanzure> sheena1: just that combat dolphin stuff 22:12 < fenn> Ferrofluid was invented in 1963 by NASA's Steve Papell as a liquid rocket fuel that could be drawn toward a pump inlet in a weightless environment by applying a magnetic field. 22:17 -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:19 < fenn> cool libgen works: http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/view.php?id=1101023 22:21 < kanzure> logs/2013-11-30.log:17:01 < kanzure> http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/ 22:26 < kanzure> "Last week it was Russia, so now it is America's turn. As the U.S. Strategic Command reported earlier, the US will conduct Exercise Global Lightning 14 from May 12-16 in coordination with other combatant commands, services, and appropriate U.S. government agencies "to deter and detect strategic attacks against the U.S. and its allies."" 22:26 < kanzure> "exercise global lightning" 22:27 < kanzure> man, i gotta start naming my projects better. i should name each project after a classified military exercise. 22:28 < fenn> "the xanadu encyclical" 22:32 < fenn> that was a jeopardy question 22:33 < kanzure> if you can do something without a matter compiler, should it be done given a matter compiler does not presently exist 22:33 < kanzure> is there any conceivable reason to d oit 22:33 < kanzure> *to do it 22:33 < fenn> see previous comment on "not dying" 22:33 < kanzure> no 22:33 < fenn> also humans are irrational and positive feedback helps in keeping them sane 22:34 < kanzure> do you think that all effort to build anything is completely misguided, since they are not building a matter compiler 22:34 < fenn> um, possibly 22:34 < kanzure> what is the requirement for evidence to invalidate this? 22:35 < fenn> we still need to prototype designs so we know what to build with the compiler 22:35 < fenn> but arguably building the prototypes by hand is inefficient 22:35 < kanzure> for example, "if it was possible to do x without/with y, then this idea is invalidated" 22:35 < fenn> too many negatives in that question 22:36 < kanzure> my point is that if your idea isn't bounded by anything present in reality, it's just a symptom of depression 22:36 < fenn> oh but there are things that are getting close to matter compilers 22:36 < kanzure> that doesn't matter 22:36 < kanzure> i mean, in the context of my question to you 22:36 < fenn> huh? 22:37 < kanzure> i am trying to ask you things and you keep ignoring me 22:37 < fenn> so, i want a waterproof spring loaded pill dispenser 22:37 < kanzure> you're changing the subject 22:37 < fenn> not really 22:37 < fenn> alternative project, exhibit A: the pill dispenser 22:38 < kanzure> i am not talking about choosing between alternative projects 22:38 < fenn> we aren't? 22:38 < kanzure> not even close... 22:38 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:39 < fenn> for the record i don't think i'm depressed 22:40 < fenn> i'm supposed to be sleeping now so i can wake up early and go tell my psychiatrist "thanks for listening to me yapp but this was all a big waste of time" 22:40 < kanzure> i see people building things all the time without matter compilers 22:40 < kanzure> your theory is too highly restraining 22:41 < kanzure> it doesn't account for this other existing activity 22:41 < fenn> yes it definitely smacks of logical excess in the way SIAI does 22:41 < kanzure> like i said, i'm well versed in shenron machine concepts 22:41 < kanzure> you don't need to explain them to me 22:42 < kanzure> and their definition hasn't been in question 22:42 < QuantumG> perhaps humans are shenron machines 22:43 < fenn> perhaps humans are just pig-monkey hybrids with an inflated sense of self-importance 22:43 < kanzure> yak shaving all the way to self-replicating von neumann builders is not healthy if it impedes all progress 22:43 < fenn> ok kanzure, what is "not yak shaving" 22:43 < kanzure> suppose you were building a pill dispenser 22:43 < QuantumG> do what you set out to do 22:44 < kanzure> building molecular nanotechnology first is yak shaving 22:44 -!- entelechy [~elysium@181.194.131.115] has joined ##hplusroadmap 22:44 < kanzure> oh right, QuantumG answered the right question 22:44 < kanzure> while i answered the other one you didn't say 22:44 < fenn> i'm really confused 22:44 < fenn> i want a matter compiler 22:44 < kanzure> i know you do 22:44 < fenn> help! 22:45 < QuantumG> task = X, everything required to be done before you can do X is yak shaving. 22:45 < kanzure> it is possible for someone to want two things 22:45 < kanzure> QuantumG: more or less, yes- although there are often critical dependencies that i would argue could be called not yak shaving.. but close enough. 22:45 < QuantumG> I disagree.. if it's *not* critical then it's not yak shaving 22:46 < kanzure> what? 22:46 < kanzure> i would have expected you to say: "if it is *not* critical, then doing it is yak shaving" 22:46 < QuantumG> going and getting a milk shake is not yak shaving to setting up your web server, installing gcc may be. 22:47 < kanzure> if you are building a pill dispenser, and you decide that you have to invent molecular nanotechnology first, what is that 22:47 < QuantumG> wrong 22:47 < fenn> i never said anything about molecular nanotechnology 22:47 < jrayhawk> going galt 22:47 < kanzure> i am using shorthand, shoo 22:47 < QuantumG> at best, I'd say it's a parody of yak shaving. 22:48 < fenn> ok well at least i need a cad program or my pill dispenser will be fugly 22:48 < jrayhawk> there should be a better term for that than yak shaving, yeah 22:48 < kanzure> graph theoretical path noise 22:48 < kanzure> dependency junk 22:48 < QuantumG> going a buying a hammer so you can hang a picture with a nail is yak shaving.. inventing a better hammer is at best a parody. 22:49 < jrayhawk> "if you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" carl saganing 22:49 < kanzure> if you want to make an apple pie from scratch [within some defined bounds], everything within those bounds are fair game 22:49 < kanzure> i am not sure why buying a hammer is yak shaving 22:49 < QuantumG> cause you can't hang the picture without one? 22:50 < jrayhawk> "overarchitecting" or "overengineering" maybe 22:50 < fenn> "i didn't invent the universe, i just live in it" um, something i just read, possibly stanislaw lem 22:50 < kanzure> it was zindell 22:50 < kanzure> well, he stole everything, so nevermind 22:50 < jrayhawk> everyone stole everything 22:51 < kanzure> QuantumG: yak shaving is usually used to refer to things that are unnecessary 22:51 < QuantumG> no it isn't 22:51 < jrayhawk> no, 22:51 < kanzure> your 12-step causal process loses cohesion the further out you go 22:51 < jrayhawk> it's used to refer to things that LOOK unnecessary 22:51 < QuantumG> yak shaving is doing all the stuff you have to do before you can do the task you were assigned. 22:51 < kanzure> well that's fucked up 22:52 < QuantumG> it's a pretty simple concept.. the *joke* is that you can imagine really convoluted preconditions 22:52 < QuantumG> or get sidetracked doing stuff you think is necessary but really you could do without. 22:52 < kanzure> see, i always thought thta, in general, the deeper you go or more distant you go from your original goal, the more each causal decision has a certain amount of error, where if you go infinitly far away, you're probably skipping out some other paths that are much shorter and more relevant to your original task 22:52 < kanzure> *that 22:52 < jrayhawk> http://projects.csail.mit.edu/gsb/old-archive/gsb-archive/gsb2000-02-11.html 22:52 < QuantumG> and often that yak shaving, in that parody of the term, is a great way to procrastinate 22:53 < kanzure> yeah, i don't get the joke, because i often really am at a yak shaving task depth of 100 22:53 -!- dagan [~tpi@c-107-4-148-59.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:53 < kanzure> how is that funny, it's just fucked up 22:53 < kanzure> "or get sidetracked doing stuff you think is necessary but really you could do without." aka "22:51 < kanzure> QuantumG: yak shaving is usually used to refer to things that are unnecessary" and "22:51 < QuantumG> no it isn't" 22:53 < QuantumG> you never really appreciated Fucked Company did ya? 22:54 < QuantumG> my friends who work at Google describe their job as yak shaving.. because all they do is develop the "infrastructure" that is supposed to change the world.. someday. 22:55 < fenn> yes google does a good job at pulling the wool off of free software 22:55 < kanzure> how about this, the more distant you are from the original task, the more likely your yak shaving decisions or dependency graph is going to lead to weak links and wrong necessity calculations 22:56 < QuantumG> I'd agree with that.. which is why you generally try to keep yak shaving to a minimum 22:56 < kanzure> do you think that to make a pill dispenser you need to first make a matter compiler 22:56 < fenn> that sounds like a heuristic you should put on your wiki page 22:57 < fenn> have i rambled about what "high tech" and "low tech" mean? 22:58 < kanzure> no 22:58 < fenn> ok in the context of air-dropping cargo onto brown people, there's this idea of "appropriate technology" where they see the whizbang million dollar matter compiler being used as a milking stand for goats 22:59 < fenn> appropriate technology means that the level of infrastructure required to build/use a tech is matched to the infrastructure present in the target situation 22:59 < QuantumG> there's a comment about Boost in here somewhere. 22:59 < fenn> so a hatchet is pretty low tech to use 23:00 < fenn> right, and Spanner is probably not what you need to store your personal address book 23:01 < fenn> in many cases it turns out that the infrastructure grows and your target populace can make new copies of the thing, so your efforts multiply 23:03 < fenn> something that is high tech has a large chain of dependencies 23:04 < fenn> what's interesting is that sometimes a new low technology is invented and can really change a lot of things, like for example superadobe 23:06 < fenn> sawyer hollow tube water filters are high tech to produce but can be used in any situation 23:06 < fenn> their utility approaches zero in a first world urban environment tho 23:06 < QuantumG> why do ya think that no "low technology" applications of electricity have taken off? 23:07 < QuantumG> no-one could be bothered taking a high technology concept like that and backporting it? 23:07 < fenn> like solar steam engines? 23:07 < fenn> it happens http://www.dekaresearch.com/stirling.shtml 23:08 < fenn> or the "baghdad battery" which was theoretically used for electroplating gold onto stuff 2000 years ago 23:08 < fenn> er, 4000 years ago (i guess) 23:09 < QuantumG> that's the ancients though.. 23:09 < QuantumG> people still use hatchets.. no-one uses Lyden jars. 23:10 < QuantumG> err, Leyden jars 23:10 < fenn> electrowinning is pretty low tech, but it's in the context of some other high tech operation usually, because high tech things are more efficient/capable 23:10 < QuantumG> you might say, oh, we can make better things now.. but that doesn't jib with your earlier low-technology concept. 23:11 < fenn> i take that back, it's not always the case that high tech things are better 23:11 < fenn> the modern mcmansion for example is a piece of shit 23:11 < QuantumG> I say that the way people *think about* technology is more important than how technology really is. 23:12 < QuantumG> something is high tech because we think of it as high tech.. not because of the number of dependencies. 23:12 < fenn> meh 23:14 < fenn> it's not my fault everyone is clueless 23:14 < QuantumG> you can hold in your hands a hatchet that is made by a molecular manufacturing nanotech robot and still think of it as low tech. 23:14 < fenn> because it has no use dependencies 23:15 < QuantumG> and you can teach African tribesmen to make solar panels from mud and tree sap and still think of solar panels are high tech. 23:15 < fenn> uh.. i'd like to see that 23:15 < fenn> i really would 23:16 < fenn> btw take a penny and oxidize it black and it's a solar panel 23:16 -!- sheena [~home@67.201.165.63] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:17 < fenn> have you heard of perovskite solar cells? 23:17 < QuantumG> nope 23:18 -!- sheena1 [~home@67.201.165.63] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 23:18 < fenn> http://www.photonicsonline.com/doc/researchers-take-the-lead-out-of-easy-solar-cells-0001 23:19 < fenn> the lead kind are up to 18% efficiency? 23:19 < fenn> pretty good for mixing some salts and spreading them out and baking 23:19 < fenn> inorganic salts 23:22 < fenn> oh and they are lasers too 23:25 < fenn> http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/sep/30/ultrathin-solar-cell-is-efficient-and-easy-to-make 23:26 < fenn> .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=oQ2bz6jlbz0 23:26 < yoleaux> Perovskite solar cells made simply 23:26 < fenn> shows the actual fabrication process 23:31 * fenn sleepz 23:36 -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap 23:55 -!- HashNuke [uid12117@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-niiqblbvtvyylgvv] has joined ##hplusroadmap --- Log closed Tue May 13 00:00:03 2014